 My friend and colleague Peggy Lee, you are, are there a hero? And so I've been charged with having some of Peggy's questions asked on her behalf. I have the privilege of working with Peggy over at the Internet Archive over in San Francisco. And so I was forwarded on one of the email threads where I learned a little bit about the fact that you have a domain archive.tw. And I would like to dedicate it to archive.org use, if we figure out something. So, so rather than being prescriptive in any way, I'm really excited just to spend this time learning, especially about what you see as being the future of archival in Taiwan across many forms of multimedia, such as books, websites, other important cultural artifacts for Taiwan. And so to try to be as respectful as possible of your time, I thought I would break my questions into three sections and feel free to navigate as you see interested. So the first section really to do justice to some of Peggy's questions is around archival possibilities for partnership. And as the Internet Archive is a nonprofit, kind of our mission. I'm going to speak for myself, not for the Internet Archive in this case, but my personal story is I ended up at the Internet Archive because Aaron Swartz was a friend and mentor of mine, and his passing left a pretty large gap. OpenLibrate.org was one of the services he started and that's the program I'm kind of directing at the Internet Archive now. So I have a special place in my heart both for Aaron and for books. Just the other day during the office hour I mentioned that I translated the Gorilla Exis Manifesto to Mandarin Chinese, and that's how I learned about Aaron's work. Wow, that's amazing. So one of the things that the Internet Archive does is it's almost like a public dropbox, and the intention is for it to be used for legitimate cultural heritage and preservation, but something that I know that Brewster, the founder of the Internet Archive, is really passionate about is providing unlimited free storage to good causes. And a lot of groups don't believe him. There was one group called E-Tree which had audio files from all of these live music concerts around the world, and they were trying to serve them from academic college servers and running out of space and musical chairs. So he said, how would you like free storage forever? And they were like, we don't believe you. And now there's 2 million live music tracks from around the world, a lot of happy bands and patrons from around the world. So my first question is specifically, is there an opportunity for the Internet Archive to play a role in backing up Taiwan's cultural heritage or even having a more ambitious outcome of doing web crawls with Taiwan or even if there's no formal arrangement, just being free storage to help Taiwan in its mission? The Ministry of Culture specifically calls the digital public infrastructure, which is not as easy-headed as it sounds, like 5 years ago when I first become a digital minister, I worked with the then-Minister of Culture, Zheng Lijun, to work with the National Accounting Office to convince them things made of non-concrete material can also be public infrastructure. And we succeeded. And so because of that, the Ministry of Culture has been funding, for example, the Taiwan Digital Model Library, which is the heritage historic sites and so on, using drones and photogrammetry to capture very high-resolution like polygons or dot-clouds so that anyone can use it for any culture or game or whatever work. And that's one. There's also memory.culture.tw, the National Memory Archive. That's Lucian's. Yeah, that's Lucian. Lucian is part of the work there. They provide high-quality, just personal memory. I also uploaded some old photos there as a permanent storage for Creative Commons licensed or public domain works that are culturally significant to the person. And people could then curate it into a new, like traveling down a marine lane and things like that. And there's many others. If you get in touch with Lucian, I think he has a very good grasp of what are the... I think he's also involved with the National Palace Museum, Digital Preservation efforts. And the Academia Cineca, of course, runs the Digital Archive Shui Dian Sao for decades now. So there's many publicly funded projects, but recently we've rebuilt it as public infrastructure, which is the new thing, yeah. Wonderful. So just to see if I understand correctly, it seems like there's at least three different projects. One is really a community center around preserving the individual memory lanes, memory.culture.tw. The second one is the Ministry of Culture has an effort to more digitize public infrastructure using drones and other equipment. Right. So historic buildings and things like that. And both memory.culture.tw and the Taiwan Digital Assets Library are funded by the Ministry of Culture. Okay, wonderful. And then the final piece that you mentioned is... The National Palace Museum, which is its own cabinet member out of historic curiosity. Okay. And if we were to talk about the Taiwan top-level domain, is there an effort around archiving the whole.tw domain? Does that fall under the purview of one of those three? No, not at the moment. Okay. Is that an area of possible interest? Sure, yeah. Who's the right person to direct inquiries to? If you're talking about, if you want a domain list of all the registrants of the.tw domain, then.twNIC is the organization to talk to. It's at arm's length to the National Communication Council. But I think.twNIC is perfectly capable of deciding in multi-state order fashion international collaborations such as yours. Okay. That is fantastic. I think that's going to go along the way toward answering some of Peggy's questions. Sure. I really appreciate it. Sure. In fact, you can share it in.twIGF, the Internet Governance Forum. I mean, we have the same Internet Governance Forum system that's pretty much everywhere. Fantastic. So I would love to segue just a little bit beyond web and storage to talk about books as well. Sure, sure. So one of the things that I heard, I could be recalling incorrectly, is that there's been a parallel effort in Taiwan to basically preserve one copy of every important Taiwanese in the National Library. In the National Library. And I was wondering to what extent that content has been digitized or whether there is an interest in either digitizing it or freely storing it. Yeah. The National Library do provide a digital archive for like, I'm trying to think of a new short term. A media and popular demand sometimes makes the digital archive far more visible than it's originally designed. For example, the PhD thesis of Dr. Tsai Ing-Wen, I received a lot of views from the National Library. The physical copy, you probably have to apply to see it, but digital copy has been downloaded. You know, many, many times, I guess. So this also is why we think it's public infrastructure, because this makes evidence-based communication and public deliberation much more likely and much more possible, as opposed to everybody having to walk in to get a physical scan or physical copy. Well, that's fantastic. In the past, the Internet Archive has worked with volunteers to try to increase the volume of material that we've digitized. Something that's also kind of neat is if a book-like object is uploaded to the Internet Archive, it will automatically do OCR, make it searchable. So maybe I'll have to get in touch with the National Libraries as well to determine what types of offerings they're able to make available accessibility-wise. That's right. Because if there is a way for us to participate, I think our only goal is increased access to knowledge. And if there's a way that we can do that by doing search-and-side or helping direct Taiwanese patrons to the exact material within a book, that would make me feel great. Yeah, of course. And there's also an office reporting directly to the president. It's called Academia Historica, which I guess is less well-known than Academia Cynica, which is the National Academy. So I guess Academia Historica, being the Historical Academy, is also an academy. But anyway, the point is that the current chief director of the National Palace Museum used to be chief of the Academia Historica, and I think they did a lot of digitization work of the national history there as well. So that would be another natural ally to talk to. Okay, fantastic. That gives me at least three places to start with TW.NIC as well. That's right. I have one question around archiving that's going to take me into the second round of questions that I have. So I'm curious how you see the role of libraries going into the future in Taiwan. This is something that I think the United States has been struggling with, especially as more materials go digital. Is there a certain future that you see or a certain strategy for empowering libraries to survive beyond DRM material? Well, personally speaking, I think libraries and bookstores are going to be places of co-creation. We already have landable tablets which is stretching the idea of a library, but at the public libraries so that people can use them as digital opportunity centers, which especially at rural places makes a lot of difference, because we do have broadband as human right at just $16 for unlimited broadband 4G connection is affordable everywhere regardless of economic or social condition. But the fact is that we need someone to handhold a child say into the digital world so that they can learn applicable skills and connect to larger communities instead of thinking the internet is just a particular antisocial media website. So that is what I see the libraries are for people who co-create there to make say OpenStreetMap to do Wikimedia co-creations to curate, for example, air quality contributed to climate science and things like that, which all requires a public gathering of people and libraries like Town Hall's Public Parks and things like that are the natural places for such activities to happen. I had a long discussion around this topic with the head, the chair, CEO of the Asleet, which is a prominent bookstore chain here in Taiwan. And I said that it's time that we think of Shu Tian, the bookstore into the book as a verb. So Shu also has a verb meaning of writing, so a writing store where you go in and co-write and co-create stuff. Is there a future for there to exist a public repository of knowledge that's accessible to the public? Because one of the things that I worry about is more and more, especially in the United States and perhaps in the UK as well, publishers are switching from a model where once upon a time a library would purchase a book and have the right to survive that book into the future and eventually enter maybe the public domain. Yeah, the US now has a public domain that's actually growing. A very new thing. Which is very nice. And that was a problem for a while. But something I'm very concerned about for the world because the public domain I think also affects more than just the United States in terms of accessibility is as these content providers switch from a model of selling a book to instead having what I see as being a bit more like a subscription model to a DRM piece of content then libraries have to pay over and over again in order for that material to stay accessible. And if you stop putting quarters into the... Coin-operated. Then the book disappears. Coin-operated book. I'm wondering beyond the very noble goal of being almost like a hacker space, a library as this place, this beautiful, flourishing place of co-creation. Is there a strategy for Taiwan to ensure that materials can still be purchased by libraries? I think we have a larger fair use scope than most other signatories of WIPO maybe because we negotiated really hard for that when we eventually joined WIPO. In my childhood, we're not part of WIPO. Anyway, so I think using the fair use doctrine that's what enabled us to, for example, I personally participate in the Moedic project which is actually in honor of Hermes Schwartz. We started that. So around the same time that other people are doing other creative things in honor of Hermes Schwartz. Anyway, so what we did is to take a 160,000 entry dictionary which is widely used but it's already reserved and just in a very real access kind of way script everything and turn those old pictures, ideographs into crowd OCR, Unicode character points and did a JSON restructuring of things and wrote out a mobile version of that using the mobile web so that everything, every single dictionary definition can be shared as a social object and also brought in the Taiwanese Tai Yi and Holo Hakka many other languages including indigenous Amis as well into a multilingual project. At no time do we think that we're going to be put into prison because we understand that a fair use doctrine says that as long as we're just doing format conversion instead of trying to sell it for ourselves which is why we all use CC0 then the Ministry of Education didn't really have a case against us and eventually they would switch to a creative Thomas model for that copyright reserved work but even with all copyrights reserved this kind of format conversion especially for accessibility reasons are consistently ruled as fair use in Taiwan so I worry less about the legal part my main idea is just to find the kind of social cost at MIM that will get people into the mood of helping digitizing that or finding a JSON format or whatever for that. I would like to put a pin in that point because that's an area where I've had a bit of learning and I'm happy to share that as well. I also want to thank Taiwan and yourself for pushing so many human policies. It's really great to hear that Taiwan does have this foundation in place to protect fair use. So I was going to jump to kind of my second set which is a little bit of a few personal questions and also that we're in a PIS. But kind of an interesting segue is around I mentioned putting a pin and kind of the participation stuff. I'll put that as the final thing. So kind of the segue between archiving and PIS is I heard from Carrick actually is one of my friends before this. And Carrick was mentioning that in Peggy as well that one area of focus has been on fighting misinformation and also specifically around COVID and other health issues. I was wondering if you might be able to teach me a little bit more about what PDIS and also Taiwan are doing to fight misinformation and see if there might be an opportunity to link back to any of the infrastructure that the archive has put in place to support those efforts. So what we're based on is the idea that we never do administrative takedown. So just like we counter the pandemic this time around with no lockdown. We have a negative social externality that will decimate like literally cut by 10% of the social sector's activities because once you do a takedown or lockdown the discourse gets even more polarized. You can see that in the U.S. actually. So our strategy then is taking a epidemiological informant approach to treat misinformation or disinformation at any given point, the mental bandwidth of the nation maybe only have room for like three trending disinformation at once because they are competitive in their own. So it's about early detection advance warnings which virus variants have a higher than one R value where each individual receiving it will on average share to more than one person. So we've got to have that insight, that dashboard. The co-facts projects from the GovZero is one of the more serious projects tackling that and they've won broad support from the leading end-to-end encrypted messaging application, the line platform. So line partnered them with the line corporate social responsibility team in Taiwan so that for every message you receive in end-to-end encrypted channels you can long press it and report it as a spot and people understand that. It's just like email if you decide to flag something as fun you're basically saying I want to dedicate the fingerprint of this email so that in the future the same sender when they want to send unsolicited email to other people, it lands on their junk mailbox rather than their inbox. So we have a dashboard the line disinformation dashboard where you can see what's the trending virus of the mind that's going on and coupled out with a fact-checking community, the international fact-checking community, the IFCN, which has at least two Taiwan members, the Taiwan Fact-Check Sensor and MyGoPen, M-O-I-G-O-P-E-N are the two members. So for the trending disinformation they would do journalistic work, fact-checking hopefully in real time and once they do it now the challenge is how to get it back to the original people spreading this disinformation and so we use this strategy called notice and public notice where for example around the election time November 2019 there was a popular rumor going in Taiwan that says Hong Kong protesters are being paid 200K or something to kill police, which is of course disinformation but the Taiwan Fact-Check Sensor traced it to a Reuters photo, it's a real photo but the caption has been altered. The photo originally only said that there are teenager protesters and that's because it's the deciding issue for the presidential election so TFCC traced it to the Weibo account of the central political and law unit of the Chinese Communist Party so it's very overt, it's not covert and then with notice and public notice people who see it on say Facebook, they can still see it they can still share it but with a caveat that says according to TFCC this is sponsored, state sponsored propaganda which is not what Reuters originally reported so it increased the competence of people not just literacy, competence because they can then create new narratives based on these annotated data and we also roll out our own clarifications from the ministries with professional comedians, with the popular Spockstock for the epidemic related clarifications, sometimes the Shiba Inu the Spockstock just talking away, that's very much fun and when people feel the joy, the fun, the humor, the tension that's raised by outrage just gets channeled into creation, it's along the street, it doesn't go back if you have felt joy about creating something it's very difficult to go back into retaliation or discrimination, right, so once we create those memes, we also spread those memes and once those memes have higher than one R value then it serves like herd immunity or nerd immunity I guess so that herd whole would no longer spread this information so it's an ecosystem, the leading antivirus company Trend Micro has a bot dedicated for that called Fang Jia Dair and I guess Disinformation Buster, another startup called Husco, also have the another line-based spot that does the early detection as well as notice and public notice but none of them do any sort of takedown, especially not administrative takedown. Okay, this is great, so I'm hearing there's this heterogeneous ensemble of approaches one of them which is almost as a first class citizen, the line app lets you hold and press and mark something as the end of and end of the channel, the other thing is that there's a dashboard which helps humans mitigate the process. Yeah, to gain visibility into the trending. Into the trending and then finally more along the lines of mainstream media this I think was like notice and public notice is an effort to attach annotations and caveats and those professional fact checkers they're not stay sponsored in any way, so they also fact check us and keep us honest Where do the fact checkers generally come from? Is it the same, a specific pool of people? Well usually people train in journalism I mean all the larger journalistic institutions already do source and fact check them by themselves but they didn't do it in a kind of public way with partnership with so many people before, but now people are seeing that this is essential, this is essential public infrastructure because not many people have this instant reaction to go check your local news when they see something that's making their rounds, so they have to do the public notice in the ground of where the disinformation brews, which is the more social corner of social media And along that question do you feel that the source material is often available when it's needed? In one of the cases you mentioned there was the router's image and presumably a fact checker could go back in time but I noticed that there was an alteration So they used a way back machine of course Interesting, so that might be one specific avenue if the World Wide Web is a big place but if we were to talk to our friends at TWNIC and see if we could get a more targeted list of things that might even be COVID related and make sure that those are backed up that could be a big win for source materials Well, thanks for bringing it up Okay, so the next question that I have is just learning a little bit more about PDIS and how it bloomed into the wonderful thing it is today I'm curious if there was either another concept or organization that really sparked your imagination that fueled some of the direction What PDIS has done is essentially taking the GovZero working model rough consensus running code and things like that within the cabinet, so we call ourselves the public digital innovation space because this is really a space for co-creation, this is not an office where I give orders or anything like that So GovZero is our direct inspiration but GovZero itself takes lessons from a lot of other communities because the GovZero hackathons are loosely modeled after the open space technology as practiced in the full camps and barcams and work that both Gianna and I worked with social text, which is where the barcams stuff started and this whole nonviolent communication tradition facilitated discussion and deliberation A lot of things that we do is just providing a digital counterpart of what has already worked in the community building work, in the nonviolent communication work that the Taiwanese people are already quite familiar with and by finding the digital counterpart without replacing or substituting the analog parts we amplify the lessons learned in the analog places So that leads me to kind of two questions I'm happy to let you navigate however you'd like but the two questions I have is along the lines of taking what's already working and making it digital, there's kind of the joint platform of voting is this one major effort to involve more people around the island in participating and having a voice So that's one avenue I'm interested in exploring is even walking around the beautiful courtyard here at PDAS and looking at the different signs I think I may have counted 16 everything from sustainability to poverty and so on one hand I can imagine there being consensus from the community, the community kind of in a dual courtesy type way decides where the fire hose gets pointed From your own perspective given that there is so much exposure and coverage so many different important things that need to be tackled among those 16 axioms where do you or how do you find the balance and focus to really make the impact that you're imagining Yeah, of the 17 global goals No, the 16s are concrete ones What from the very basic needs ending poverty, ending hunger, health care and so on to the more structural, more planetary like the climate action life underwater and on the land and open government, that's the 16s My main work is on the 17s which is the most abstract it's called partnership for the goals and does on the very concrete terms is reliable data, making sure that people focusing on each problem's share mutually agreeable data so that there's mutual accountability and we can understand the repercussions and extradality that each work places on the other work so reliable data and then effective partnership meaning that if we see that there are partners already doing things better than we would do ourselves then we should actually work together and collaborate even though maybe you are a for-profit with-purpose organization and they are a for-purpose with-profit organization there are still interesting cases of course that kind of partnership that should be done and foster so that's 17, I believe and then also open innovation which is really critical because in many cases if we design the market such that there is more incentive in revealing what you have learned rather than keeping it to yourself under intellectual property or whatever other ideas then it brings appropriate technology to the appropriate people where they can appropriate it and remix it and solve any local problem because not to do that would be authoritarian intelligence not assistive intelligence which to me AI falls on this broad spectrum whether it empowers more people or empowers only the few so that's another of the 17 schools so to recap, reliable data effective partnership and open innovation these are the main things that I work on and not specifically on any of the 16 because I do believe that in many of the structural issues the economic, the environmental and the social issues are broadly convergent if people are given a public space to discover the common biases by initial different positions so this brings up a question that I don't know that I had originally but when I hear reliable data effective partnership, open innovation I think just as much about the data as I do the platform and something that I recall hearing is that a lot of times it's hard to use existing platforms because they may not embody all of PDAS's beliefs and openness but at the same time, every time we build new technology it becomes susceptible to some sort of exploitation so a good example in the United States one of the saddest memories events in recent memory is when the open internet order in the United States became rolled back and the FCC had asked for comments from the public and there was a large outpouring of comments and spam and as a result the FCC discounted the community's voice and so I'm curious in partnership with number 17 if we try something like that in Taiwan we'll probably face a referendum I'm curious even with joint platform voting how does one have confidence that systems like this accurately give people a voice and don't suffer from some of the negative scaling aspects of digital First of all there's always an outside game if there's no good digital public infrastructure well we occupy the parliament so people who are fed up with the non-transparent trade deal with Beijing back in 2014 literally occupied the parliament and did MPs work that the MPs were refusing to do and that's a very strong signal in that if the career public service doesn't work with the people then they don't get to work for the people so that's I think there's a kind of ultimate made some implied in any of those online public preservation designs in that if we do it the half-hearted way then people will initiate a referendum and to essentially take the agenda setting power back and even that didn't work then people will probably take to the streets or occupy the parliament and set but always imply outside game that keeps the whole thing in check that makes sense to me I also want to be honest so my last line of I have other questions maybe around your personal feelings of what success would look like maybe 10 years from now it's fully realized maybe we hope that it will never be realized because there's always good work to be done but if we're on the right trajectory so Aaron has this little essay which is kind of the continuance for me I adapted it to if I ever get hit by the self-driving car then what happens to the program and what's the direction if I ever get hit by the human driving car that's scary so the human driving car what do you hope to be true in order to say you really feel like the program in Taiwan are in a healthy digital direction well I'm happy about it now so I think a lot of things that we proved in Taiwan for fighting not just the infodemic and the pandemic but for the more structural issue for example how to resolve the marriage equality equation for people in different generations we have very different definitions of family and marriage and things like that show that this kind of radically mutually accountable way of policy making really does define the innovations that take care of all those different positions feelings without 49% of people feeling they have lost and so for example the marriage equality thing it's done by one constitutional ruling two referendum that's defined a solution space very clearly so that when two same sex people wed they wed enjoying all the same bylaws relationships and so on as heterosexual couples but the family like brother-in-law the in-law relationships do not form so their families don't wed according to our civil code and this is a very interesting redefinition of marriage that's eclectic that takes care of different generations marriage expectations and that frankly speaking works better than 51% of people winning anything and so the continued democratic trajectory of Taiwan has led us to now the national action plan of open government on the cabinet side which was just published and very soon I think next week the parliament is going to publish their own national action plan open parliament and with all the four major parties signing on it so they disagree I don't know 99% of other policy issues but the four major parties all agree furthering of the democracy and connecting internationally on the value of democracy and to me I mean that means that I've already designed myself out this is no matter which political party wins the presidential election or religious election they can only turn this forward they can't roll it back anymore I love that so I think it especially speaks it's a testament to human rights to equality and to establishing these empowering elements that allow everyone to be equal on a human level but I'm curious and this also brings me into participation within PDIS, within the government, within the Taiwan program I'm curious how does this extend beyond human rights into labor, labor equality one of the things that I feel like has been surprising to me is how many talented people there are in Taiwan and either and I could be wrong because I don't have as much experience here but either people who are really talented end up relocating to a different area because of opportunity it seems like the gold card may be one way to try to attract talent circulation I think that's great but I guess my question applies as much to brain drain or talent circulation in Taiwan but also to the gold card itself which is how does one create the dynamics of Taiwanese labor and employment to make it so that more people do want to become and can become whether it's a software engineer or I don't want to pretend that tech is the only option but one of these I'll call it highly leveraged maybe opportunities where they want to do it in Taiwan and they also have that with their participation in government a couple of things the first I would like to point out is that our work in the government is just to introduce this whole co-creation, design thinking this idea of agile development tempo so that instead of every quarter we work in weekly or bi-weekly iterations even our own scene works in such weekly iterations and once the career public service are enjoying this new tempo understanding this actually garners more trust, reduce risk save their time, very important then they're much more willing to reach out so case in point, a bunch of gold card holders started at TaiwanGoldCard.com in an open source way on github and because they're probably fed up with the National Development Council's original gold card website for digital service which is very unusable but then the NDC invited those bunch of people in and then they co-created the new portal goldcard.nat.gov.tw and so working with the intention to merge I think that is how we introduce there's a mathematics structure for conflict free replicable data type CRDTs, if we structure our policies our policy making process as a series of CRDTs then any part of it may be forked with the intention of merging back not forked just to criticize or things like that but with actively an ethos of remaining in the open access and per open definition open data and open source traditions so that the government when it wants to merge it back faces minimal friction and we have to do coin operated software as a service or SAS model they can just merge whatever on the github back which is precisely what happened in many of the government digital services here so this is the government side the first part of your question I think it pertains to Taiwan's original culture of most of the software people I know more lost cycle of 18 months because they work very closely with the semiconductor and hardware supply chain and when software works in that time cycle of course it's very precise it works very well and which fosters I guess Taiwan's software industry is almost all to business that is to say there's a peer but the pizza hut of the world probably wouldn't say power by a peer on their websites there's Trend Micro but large enterprise probably wouldn't say secure by Trend Micro on their websites and so on so that leads to less visibility of software people even though there is a software industry the people facing part of the software is less visible and I think it could be fixed quite easily by people working on customer facing like the Dolby browser whatever and just proudly saying that they're working toward international audience maybe they are international people to begin with maybe Taiwan is just one very small bit of their total marketplace or maybe it's not a marketplace at all but they are happy to be in Taiwan physically and work with the Taiwanese community to share what they have learned as software creators and so on so what I'm trying to say is that a social sector of software practitioners like the zero like V-Timer which literally means every week here is I think the best way for people who do not otherwise have supply chain relationship with one another but they can share like the Reddit exchange foundation which I'm also a board member of just literally takes whatever people learn from Ethereum like quadratic voting and whatever they made up and lo and behold they become presidential hackathon so the governance model of our democracy can be upgraded with whatever we learn from internet governance, blockchain governance or other experiments in governance so that's purely social sector like norm defining ecosystem that makes a lot of sense so I think we've jumped from archiving to PDIS and then also to participation and my final question is I love by the way the analogy of using CRDTs like maybe 80% don't make it merged in but there's some confidence that the 20% that do in that power law are going to be the things that really move the needle and the most people are frustrated with so thank you for sharing that power law to the people power law to the people yeah and working towards the idea of merging is also beautiful and so if people do want to participate if if there's one thing that I can achieve by being with you in front of the camera the thing that I hear really frequently from people in these whether it's gold card chats or things of that nature is I wish there was a way for me to plug in with my software engineering capabilities just fork the government yes so in particular is the right place to get started zero zero so the National Participation Platform is joined the GOV.TW and if you change your O to a zero you get into the shadow government join the GOV.TW which is a Slack channel I think 8000 people so if they wanted to join the Slack channel they can go to the website yeah and you buy yourself in and there's like bimonthly hackathons many smaller meetups and things like that I would be remiss to ask is there anything else I can be helpful or useful with based on any of the questions that I've asked you can share the fact that as of last Christmas the Ministry of Science and Technology relaxed the gold card criteria so that anyone with the potential to contribute to science or technology in Taiwan is now eligible so it's pretty much everybody that's fantastic well I would like to also if you let me thank you on behalf of my friend Peggy I'm sure it's ecstatic that you are so kind to answer the questions so you want to go back to the thing you pinned or is already resolved I think we resolved it because really we were pinning the participation and what are the ways to get involved okay so yeah through GOV.TW I think it's actually faster than if you I don't know work for the government as a contractor or something because even many government employees or contractors also doubles as GOV.TW contributors because if they can prove that something works for the large fraction of the community or the population then the ministries are already very well versed in merging in those outside contributions so just like in free software like forks speak louder than words and just work whatever that you don't like about our government digital service or really like the GOV.TW experience which essentially got forced and merged back so that does raise one question that I hadn't hadn't thought of which is so having time to participate and contribute is within itself I think a privilege and I wonder if some of these programs are more accessible to people who may have time or their own source of funding so first of all we're aware of that that's why we made say the public participation on a joint platform part of the civics class so we have more than one quarter of citizen initiatives by people who are not even 18 years old and they did so because it's their civics class assignment because it's their capstone project and so kind of by definition they have time it's the byproduct of them learning how to be a citizen and that also applied to community colleges lifelong learning centers at the USR social responsibility programs and so on and so forth in all different age groups so combining it with education making it so that they are producers not just consumers of data and digital media competence instead of literacy I think that's how we get people to build a habit of participating when they know it's something wrong and so also for the funding part GOV.TW has its grants so GOV.TW grants have many social impact related grants also in Taiwan so many of them are on our social innovation platform SI.TW.TW we also have the presidential hackathon which for this year probably starts around April where the hackathon price is not money but a presidential promise that whatever you build will be funded by the state as a national infrastructure so that's also something to look into that's fantastic so someone can go to SI.TW.TW and discover different funding it's bilingual and if you think there are parts that's not translated well just write an email brilliant thank you so much I really really appreciate it cheers thanks everyone