 How would it become a release board to include the CCDs, what you said? Because the CCDs are just to say, if you want another release board, that other packages can be automatically configured by other packages. Not much abroad. Not every package, I think. Okay, that certain amount of packages can be auto-configured by other packages without making the auto-configuring packages policy conflicting. I don't think it's going to be a release board. Well, that's it. What is the... Why would a release team want to manage this? It's a CCD from the CCDs to manage it, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be a release board. It don't manage the release board. I was just saying, what about strengthening it to say a base install because Google will be doing fully automated installs and we frequently run into the sub-dev comp communities with too many different overrides that only need to be disabled in different ways and they're still the base packages. The things that are often configured by dev comp are the very fundamental packages and they're often difficult to override and keep them from ever asking a question, which is something you often want in your custom distributions that you've already answered those questions. Yeah, but the packages that actually accept dev comp preceding are not a problem because they are fixed already. It's a function that do not accept preceding. That is the problem. Well, that's the source of that problem. Even pre-seeds aren't all that solid. They tend to not forget. And then they need to figure later on. Well, sure, but that's a regular package. That's a regular package. When you install the package, instead of looking for dev comp for the right answer, you try to see the environment of the machine to find the best answer for a question. Find the XML segment. Instead of it didn't accept from dev comp those names of the machine, you looked for files inside the slash, etc. and you write for the right answer. For me to re-configure the Xemite, first change the files, and then I could re-configure the Xemite. Right. The database is not the author of the source we've mentioned. It's not on disk. It's supposed to use demo values. Of course, when you want to precede it, it still uses some other value from disk. It's a problem. The problem is when I try to find the recid file to auto-configure the package, you don't know what questions you will take from preceding, what questions the package will fetch from the environment to find the right answers. It's a little problem. You have to look at the questions for that. But sometimes post is not easy to read. No, that's right. That's why you have debugging. Yes. Okay, I think this problem is basically nobody has ever said that creating a CBD is always totally easy. You really have to look at what you're trying to customize to figure out what you need to do for it. In my case, I'm not trying to do a CBD. I just try to install a machine on most automatically possible and in the future, upgrade my configuration and all the services to be the same what I'm doing. I'm using preceding and after that, I'm using scripts to change the configuration files. And so, somehow I'm interested what you can get from CBD on Debian because I can recycle some of the things on my software. We also have, we modified Debian installer. So we created two UDEPs which modified the way Debian installer works. We asked all the questions in the beginning and then in the end of the install, we modified the configuration files as discussed and we have four main profiles to select what kind of installation. So we don't have the UDEP Debian tasks. This is more information. And at the moment we have our own CD and of course we are completely in Debian and we don't need our own CD. And I was thinking Debian has these GNOME KDE and XFCE flavors. It should be just another flavor. Debian Edo, as a special case, it's also not any other custom Debian distribution but it's an official Debian sub-project. So I don't think, I talked briefly the sponsor of the space issue on CD image. I would say that it would only need, we have three architectures with the three CDs and DVD so it's six gigabytes more adding to the hundreds or 150 gigabytes there are. I don't see any other issues to create the CD. There is no issue. The only thing is that you cannot say every CD has rights to put any CDs they would like on CD image Debian work. That's also the question. I also think that CDs should probably be optional for mirrors of CD image work. So they would have to end up in a separate sub-director or so on that mirrors can choose to either mirror or not. So it should, in my opinion, should not be in the same directory as where the Debian official images reside because CDD is not Debian. It still, it has a specific purpose it has a completely different audience. I do not agree. It's my opinion what I'm saying. I think we found the definition that CDD is Debian but it's useful and it is completely Debian and in much favor of this variant we have one player clone, KDE, XFCE and others. The only problem I have with that is if I look at it from a random user here I'm going to a directory where Debian CDs are, Debian CD images. And I find a Debian Met CD there. How do I know I do not want it? Without first going to... It shouldn't be so different with CD because it is still Debian. It's the same if you install it now Debian and I don't want GNOME but that's what I get pretty far. Yeah, but a regular user doesn't want medical software. And also in your case it's 3 CDs but I think a lot of other CDDs will have sets of 2, 3, 4, whatever. My call is that it's something that also relates to release. I think that image that must be found on CDD should be released at the same time. So if the CDD is not coordinated with the major release it should not be in CDD. At least not in December. I have no problem with it being on CDD. I think there are good reasons to say it should be on CD image that will work. I think it is the outcome I agree with that it should be on this server. But also I think we already have now a lot of space issues on the mirrors. Not as bad as CD image itself but on the mirrors. It's quite bad. And I really expect... Why should we give Debian 8U more villages than another Debian CDD? Do we have any other expected CDDs? Oh, Debian 8. Please let me finish. That's my point. My job is to finish the CDD. So what I really think is that we should really say we could put it up on CD image but it shouldn't be in the main directory because what is in the main directory I really want to have release exactly on edge or exactly on landing. So if we use the release we have a lot of effort to be able to push the images with exactly the same date to all mirrors which needs to be coordinated in which it's more complicated with every one more image. So if it's not in that directory and in another directory, I know it's also a good idea. I agree not having whatever in the end 20 CDDs in one directory and the user gets completely... One CDD pluses three standard ones in one directory which is really bad because the user would say hey, which one should I download to install it? Is that normal Debian? Well, regarding the release process I think this is then the job of Debian EU to make sure that when Debian releases our packages are ready and can be released with them otherwise it can fail again and we still need our own archive. Even if you say it should be released at the same time I would like that much. It's difficult if you say well, we need to prepare all the media so that it makes the process official like it's a media longer and Steve even can have lesser sleep cycles or it will be released on the same day but the CDDs will be released approximately a week later which is probably not too bad for you. But we have a certain download, I would say download madness at the moment when the release announcement is out Debian CDDs and DVDs and so the main CDDs need to be available at the same time on all media and I don't think that we need CDDs and CDDs on the same day but one week later is not an issue I hope. I also think that it could be another step because at the moment we have our own repository we have our own CD image server just getting rid of the own packages which are different from them which is a great huge step for us. One question if you talk about was this medical software there is no single medical software outside Debian the package is completely the same it's just a different selection of packages we do not add anything but if you are going to have a separate first CD we would not like a separate but just an item to select in the start just some pre-configuration for the package selection that's completely different from the Debian ADU case Debian ADU wants separate CDDs but if I understand this case correctly it should not necessarily be for Debian ADU we might also want to modify the way we modify the installer that we have the question from the beginning also something Debian installer wants we have discussed it and because we need to read information that only becomes available later the questions that are asked later at the moment cannot be asked early because we need information that is only available at that point of time that depends on the question that is asked or the other question we are moving forward the reason that that is asked in where it is is because we just asked the question of the package itself it's not a question in Debian installer it's a question in Popcorn I know but it's interrupting the installation for a bit you have done the partitioning and it's like doing that for a few minutes and then it pops up so we don't want to duplicate questions that bad design could perhaps open the list there is another thing do we have support for multiple Debian ADL repositories in Debian installer? because that could also truly benefit CDD because they are available to use on the net version so to actually install a CDD we are just calling it as a different new day repository or adding one or more you can open the code completely yes I have complaints from people watching such games as it's too dark well I just realized but the way we modified Debian installer we should just bring the upstream to Debian installer well far away it's not too simple to look at a normal installer the way we modified the installer is by installing one extra user which pulls in a few dependencies and we ordered the installation system to ask our question first and then go ahead and install the system and then run the LTSP installer and also means that you want LTSP to be on the first CD which is not from the local well maybe but it's like LTSP is only an example I don't know what else you have on the first CD that's not on the regular first CD my point is that you don't really need much of this first CD if you get the rest on the net first UDEP even if you install UDEP has to be there to be selected and installed then it just takes over and automates the installation and having something like install WMEDU or EDU enable or EDU is true or something that would not be a major issue all it had to do was use all of the extra UDEP that would we could even do it by all components is diminating in a normal level in the store actually I did that and it works it is, yeah so there's a lot I think the main issue is the question if you want separate CD sets I don't really care how big they are but my personal opinion would be they do not belong in the WM directory because they will confuse people and because it's for completely different targets and because you cannot force something like that on all mirrors it's just not I don't think it's reasonable I think they have to have a WMEDU directory or whatever the second thing is that if you can just go with the regular CDs or not depends on the amount of customization you want to do or need to do and if you actually want to be able to install fully from CD or not if you want to reorder the way things are in CDs you're talking about custom images we gave up the CD the CD now has to be network installable we still stick on the DVD but as I said from an extra management point of view I have actually no problem with a simple boot option right you have the install EDU including the UDAP on the CD is minor and you can even add a problem question inside your own UDAP I think actually that should be done by the default installer all the questions should be asked in a sequence up front and then it should just go ahead and do its work well you can start a discussion on that every boot list that's just for speeding up the human time spent on the installer in the installer if you can make sure that you have a human interaction up front that's sort of better you know why do you want to be interrupted as I say it doesn't make sense to duplicate things just to achieve that you also just want to do a a natural installation order just I don't think it's a major problem installation takes only 15 minutes what's the problem the problem is if you want to popcorn question asked first or any other question that's asked during package installation regular package installation you would have to duplicate that template inside the installer with all translations and so on increasing the memory requirements of the installer effectively and then you would have to make sure that the answer to that question is propagated to the installed system at the proper time so you have to keep the question in sync with the package yes so it's for my point of view it's nonsense it is like that but from a human interface point of view it is actually important to get rid of all the interaction up front and then you can do the installation if you have a question in 3 minutes even if it's like one question every minute and if you answer it there and then it is 15 minutes it's like 3 minutes plus 2 minutes to discover it then you have 5 minutes and you answer the question and then you go away and you come back 3 minutes later and discover that the question hasn't arrived yet so you go away for 5 minutes come back and then the question is there that's why we have preceding and also there's a lot of questions that you don't know that they are going to be asked before there were a lot of other questions that have been answered before so like you know it's technically feasible but it's going to be hell to maintain well sure I know I didn't mean to read the item I don't know but we are already doing some of it and it is painful to maintain we know this I mean you can do it for a small subset of Gigan I think for a CDD it fits if you have preceding you can if you actually change the background priority for classical installer you get asked a ton of questions during the default package set installed and you know how could you know which priority will be set up and so you could actually ask all the questions before it's one question every install we don't have to solve every problem but you can solve quite a lot of problems by moving that question since we are we are at the DI and the CD topics just a question I had are there any CDDs that actually create a live CD something similar not yet we have tried to get a live CD you have made one maybe if you have one you will be at the moment and look at the automatic build it doesn't seem to use the package it's a desktop kind of my live CD was automatic with live head it was broken at the moment but there are custom handmade live CDs that are available I want to get a bit more into that and see how far you can combine it so you only have to distribute one disk in it live CD which is on it it's all the same like you wouldn't do it but with real depth on it you should talk to Tafjo and Daniel Baumann they are working on that at the moment working yesterday but the view was broken done would you think to summarize the problem and to find some answers not at all is it plans that we install a live CD on one CD or is it I have no idea it's basically a separate project at the moment and I have no idea how Debian Live has been used yes because I mean the idea of the Wunder people is having a live CD booting up to see whether it works well and then install it for the desktop for the desktop yes I'm not really know what I should think about it it can be done with Debian Live at the moment Debian Live has one of the three goals Debian Live has is not to be an installer but they provide installation script since almost the beginning because it's just you need to partition the hard drive and copy the live image to the hard drive and make the hard drive bootable that's all this can be done in 20 line trails so it's there start the build it's useful for live CDs for example to really use a shared doc which you don't really want to do as an installer but to gain space many live CDs do that but it's not if you don't do that then you can just copy it from the live CD did I leave the copyright funds did I do that actually I only know this from the Fedora 7L CDs and they adjusted R and M but that was Beta I don't know how Fedora 7L ended up you could first copy them to 7L okay are there any others that have questions or remarks or whatever how many CDs are actually represented there Debian Live CD what's it well we do lots of presentations on our Google but they're not published do you have kind of an official CD maybe well we run into a lot of the same sort of issues we need to pre-configure everything and we do installs that are fully automated so we run into for instance LDAP there are pre-seeds that you can put in for LDAP but they can't generate the configuration file we actually need to find a wedge so that it won't try to overwrite the file that we're going to substitute and particularly with pre-seeding every file has to be wedged to be converted in some other different way and we start building up these tables on our internal what we have to do for this file and we'd be really hating to have one way to wedge them in different ways is it something that you will see as a benefit even contributing back to free software and tailor these things out using engineering hours to the free guys I think it would so one thing I wanted to do was guess what do people think about that coming up with standard ways to wedge the LDAP so that it won't write to configuration files so that you can then write over them some other way I believe that's the wrong approach I think the multi-level configuration method is the better way where the packet has this configuration file and you get to provide your own configuration file and the program will select your file instead of the packet file if you want to so then you have two different paths and you don't have any conflicts when you upgrade and there's like two completely separate files you modify one packet modify the other and they will never cross each other can you think of any packages in Debian right now that we're already using a multi-level configuration XM4 K3 XM4 okay that's why what we are actually asking for is that everybody was into this problem in some level or another in different services or in the user programs and if we could maybe use a bit more time on it to make it up running because what actually happened is the same use you exemplifies is that when we have schools and they do upgrade kind of three or four services breaks maybe some end user programs and then actually what's happening is that schools maybe suggest to go back to windows for more part of you that has a policy on getting people going for free software it's kind of oh you sold us this cool product and if we upgrade with app get then everything should work it really breaks and what should we do because they are blind so this is our kind of use case scenario that we want to target if you can my question is still because you're doing all this in-house work we have some suggested strategies to solve this and I actually have a plea are you going to put some engineering hour to get with our guys mostly we're just trying to do our own heads above water but we have a large body of things we've had to do as workarounds and a lot of that can be fed back to the outside world how do you make LDAP not configure not run to DevCon I guess you modify LSS time as well oh yeah yeah we do lots of little modifications the biggest problem we have for automating installers is the DevConf system Conf files are easy to wedge you de-package and divert the file and now everything goes and modifies the diverted file and you don't have to worry about what it's doing you can just put your file on DevConf doesn't follow the diversions diversions is not supposed to handle DevConf files and it's supposed to have either DevConf or versions but not both so that's yeah if you do that you're not guaranteed to you know it would be nice if there were a way that we knew we could do this every file you have to go in and read the post-ins and figure out what it's trying to do and how you can wedge it and some of them end up just being races which sucks but if you say modular configuration wouldn't it be nice if we think we just make a tree to see CDD and copy every or sim link to every config file for the moment and then put our own configuration file in this place and just find a common method to find these modular configuration files that might be a good approach to make it easier for private maintainers to implement it then package maintenance just only have to update the source to this common place, EDC-CDD and you have only one CDD installed on your box and you can find this assumption which is not always true because I feel about people who want to install devian ego and devian junior but I don't know if this is a practical case but I also think that two levels is not enough all the time because at university we have like slash local with the university wide stuff and slash site for the local department it's wide stuff and then you have the EDC for the machine specific stuff and you need to handle all of this for KD you can add as many levels as you want by inserting values into the KD there's environment variable and that's very nice because you can at run time when the user login check if he's a member of any group or if some direction should be enabled because the machine is of a specific type and then there's attitude environment variable and the configuration is in that direction will be used by KD so I wish all programs would be him like that fairly optimistic you know I think to sum it up I'm just asking you to get together more times and maybe join us at the devian ego developer gathering and do engineering work here very practical not political get your ass on the airport and get over to Norway or some of Spain whatever and be there and help out to this yeah I've been on a few of your lists posted suggestions and things like that yeah we haven't exported pretty much yet and the other part is that we have some logistical effort but I know that Extremadura is very interested in similar things so and we're going to probably have more developer gatherings down in Spain so if you're going to get more some time than you already maybe from California there are a couple of things we can do just logistically you can use our video conferencing system so if you have people in Spain in California and want to talk yeah you can send an email to google.com and find some of the local devian developers who are in both offices and they'll get you connected can you get the video on google's com working with Gnash? yeah it has to be from one google office to another you can very get the google office to actually say you can use your facility one of my points is that the video google com videos are only playing with adults the employer with enough libraries can play though it's pretty irritating yes I'll put that one in there's a package that you can download from google video you know I'm trying to get hold of him getting and you're talking about the employer and there's a kind of I know that definitely both is kind of it too but it seems that we can do something together and you can actually attend or maybe we have a video conference you have a location that we maybe could do something sometimes a weekend maybe sneak and misuse your office space well it's not even a misuse I've been invited to do this by my manager so here we have some the troll names office is free for New York Mountain View Santa Monica Phoenix I know I know I can promise you we will get a yes both from google until in Norway that's a no brain is there any place outside the United States because you don't want to gift the finger prints yeah okay we have a deal so far thank you then our template well I've known us doing custom demo discus or doing demo discus discus java discus do you still run in this room yeah I've heard from the deviant guest people that say should again work on the on the conceded it was a long time there are two people at the moment two people I hope that something will start with the scientific stuff and for this purpose we'll go on the out to people's of family it's in a bit of July there should be some science oriented hopefully hopefully because I'm afraid there are not so many people who actually do work it's a lot easier to talk talk is really fun yeah I can share some experience about cdb I had to make a private thing red redfripo I don't know how you pronounce it yeah it's a very nice tool to have a custom package repository because you can actually maintain multiple filters to aggregate packages from multiple sources so that you can actually have packages from edge packages from a store packages from back post and selecting like filters and shell scripts just plain lists you can also install new packages in that very same directory and they'll be committed in a staging area to explain nice tool to make a cdb actually if you want to have your own repository also like one of the issue I had with the digital install is now fixed which means that I had at some point to insert a user that has to run something during install and that I had to install to install that precisely at a specific position in the menu and there was no room to put that because I had to put it in between 33 and 34 and yeah I was stuck so this is changed now we have like every standard menu item that you can store as 3 digits and the last one is a 0 ok so you can actually put your very own menu item anywhere you want actually you could trick the old one to further on that problem I had to I had to make a custom packages actually to realize other items I had no choice I tried what we didn't even knew it was to provide on meta packet with a very low menu number depending on the sequence of address we wanted to use and then the menu would be reordered using that sequence I discovered by accident that it actually works it wasn't designed for that it was just amazingly consistent there is an attack in the menu now the ordering of the menu is first by dependency and only then by menu number if there is things at the same level Devin knew we chose to use duck so that people can use learn duck to work on the Devin especially it shows not the easy way but the other way well we had the very easy way using cp and mv to maintain the archive but that was a bit hard to maintain so we decided we didn't consider rubric robust it was well it could have probably worked but we did it for the duck because we weren't experienced with that it's really much your repertoire which was maybe the caveman and another last thing I want to share is I hate meta packages really if you do a cdd the easiest way you add actually a bunch of specific set of packages right now is to make a big meta package that gets installed with the system but if at any time system administrator gets rid of one of the dependencies the meta package gets removed and that's the problem in my opinion because next upgrade you will miss all the new packages you will have to add it to the custom distribution so I had plans to use that tag to write something that could overcome this issue have you checked is it new what Sergio has written Spanish guy from Valencia he wanted to write a tool cd toolkit or whatever it is not finished yet but he wanted to circumvent this meta packages problem have you heard about this and what about task yeah probably could have done it yeah task cannot we were simple to separate we have packet lists which generate both meta packages and tasks and we install using the task build tasks and in the upgrade you will be notified of new packages because the meta packages are also installed but only with the recommends so it will tell you that these new recommended packages will be or will not be installed depending on your setting so if you use both of them you can actually handle both upgrades and not being stuck with installation problem because some packet disappeared from the archive or similar things you will experience with meta packages so I recommend looking into the review packet which is implementing this and task cell is very flexible we hope to be able to adjust it to combine language specific packages with task specific packages so you get the Spanish data packages if you install Spanish desktop that kind of thing but we haven't looked into these combinations yet but I know it's possible because default data will install and do it but I really like how you do it with the task could you provide this technique for the other CDDs as well it is actually I think the CDD packet I will have this invented this CDD stuff and it's not good and I wish you could make it better I know it's just a question of time because we have continued to develop our dance you have an early fork I made a few modifications I did not want to make it a fork I wanted to present it to you to make it to continue we really wanted to use it but someone actually had to do the work of switching our build system to use it and no one did that but I'm afraid it would be the same well you have to actually convert the build in your packet to use it and if you do it I would like to after edge after edge I just want to have the common tool for all CDDs to not reinvent the wheel my intent was to make it but I was just but you have to go all the way you can't just stop you have to go inside and fix all your stuff mentions deviant egos I have just to rename your stuff and this would be also a fork I have no tool which I can what can you rewrite the build system for db and edu the db and edu packet I don't want to rebuild it I just want to build well someone has to do it someone has to rewrite the build system for db and edu packets to use CDDs if not it's not going to happen no the problem is I just re-throwed the db and edu package I was able to create the db and edu packages at a formal state but you developed further and ignored the CDD common package so if I try it again I'm afraid you will also ignore well it would only be ignored if it's not committed to our CVS or sub-version but you are, I'm really welcome to commit the first thing to do is to ask for commit access oh you've got sick and you're not talking to the penter so you have to do something I think you do so don't the main thing about task cell in my experience is lack of documentation it really is a good how to do stuff like this we cleaned up our packets because by accident we discovered that you could do it in much simpler instead of having like seven files you could use one file so it would be nice if somebody from the CDD community who has gathered that knowledge or on bits and if any volunteers to do that I'm more than willing to answer questions about how the details work sitting down and writing a documentation is probably not going to happen on this side of this what's the name of the list? the main list? DBN Eat New at least, DBN Org there is also the DBN CDD no, DBN Custom at least, DBN Org it is like a meeting point for all the CDDs that are not very active this list is mostly occupied by external the way I was the idea of CDD is to make something internal but the name is really bad chosen Custom DBN distribution sounds like something else in principle we should rename it again but if you have a hesitate, do you have a better or forester? unfortunately not but internal has to be inside the name DBN internal has to be inside the name because anything else is misused I had the point when we changed the name internal, DBN what was internal, DBN Project it was an Oslo, it was formerly internal, DBN Project and people mixed it up with technical projects like X-Tribe Force and so on we changed the name, but this was bad move this was a really bad move but I have no good inventing names renaming something is even worse because you have to do something at least get a better name I think confusion is not a good thing confusion is really bad so if somebody finds a good name here in this room, you are welcome there would be a nice thing I think the time is actually over yes a normal use of nice things to show that