 Welcome everyone. It's the Jenkins user experience special interest group today is March the first 2023. Great to have everybody here topics that I've got on the list for today include keyboard usability UI improvements recent UI improvements what's coming in UI improvements deprecation of Jenkins JavaScript libraries work in progress. Let's put those as and user feedback had a good post from Jerry in the community on on usability and usability concerns. Are there any other topics that need to go and one more which is that I need someone who is willing to take over the meeting. I can stay for about 20 minutes but then I need to hand control over to someone else to take, take the leadership of the meeting do I have a volunteer. Sorry really did was did did I hear you volunteering or was that not a volunteer. Nope. Okay. So, given that then we may have to, if we don't get a volunteer we may have to end the meeting at 20 minutes because I, I don't have much opportunity in terms of flexibility on my end time. I'm happy to learn. Oh okay Christina if you're willing then what we'll do is at about 20 minutes in. I'll transfer ownership of the meeting to you. Let's be sure that I've shared this so that you can edit the notes. I'm a terrible note taker but I'll do my best. Well and that's, that's welcome to the club. Okay, great. Thank you. Thanks for being willing. All right. So, any, and I don't hear any other proposed agenda topic so let's go ahead. Christina you want to take on improve keyboard usability first. Yeah. So, due to some other priorities I haven't made as much progress on this as I'd like so kind of where we're at is we need to. At cloud bees at any rate. I'm not sure if the accessibility work done within the community. We need to achieve WCAG level a compliance. To do so there are some major kind of issues within the open source code that we need to fix. It's not easy enough like I don't none of them are tremendously heavy lifting they're all front and front end in nature. But the issue is on our side like as we go through this all of this accessibility work. We need to kind of patch our process for merging things and to say the unified release branch because otherwise we're always going to be chasing this and we're not going to be able to say like yes we have a process in place that makes sure that any things that are accessible. So, I kind of need to touch base with some people internally to figure out like kind of a best practice that we could set I was hoping to piggyback on what's happening with tips compliance, not in the same way but kind of use that same model perhaps to pull requests. But I can walk you through. If there's interest or maybe this warrants. Is there an accessibility SIG. There is not. There's not. Is there an accessibility initiative on the SS. They're only within the context of the UX SIG. Okay. Okay. So, so yeah, I mean I can walk you through the issues if you'd like sorry here's someone trying to talk. Go ahead. Was I interrupting someone. Nope, I think go ahead. All right. So, obviously, I mean, I'm sure you all have like some baseline familiarity with with accessibility. But I think it's kind of until now the way we've tried to tackle it is like here's a laundry list and an Excel file. You know, hit stuff and try to, you know, fix fix the broken without really like building a process and I hate the word process because everybody like has baggage with it but we need to establish a workflow to make sure that like from the get go or we're facing errors were actually like meaningfully staying on top of it and factoring it into new work. So, currently, there's some issues with kind of all all areas of the main navigational area like the main nav breadcrumbs the sidebar. So what we're choosing to tackle this is when it so we have customers that are asking for it. And when it comes to accessibility audits like intent really matters. Right. So, no one will care about an alt tag on a spacer image, if they're stuck in a keyboard trap in the breadcrumb navigation and they can't get it. So I think that, you know, it's far more useful to fix the foundation, like the bigger issues, which are the scary ones but they're not. And get those working so that at least a user can navigate through a page from start to finish using an accessible device if they need to, and then the lower hanging fruit we can tackle kind of as we go so I'm kind of breaking up my story in phase one phase two phase three phase one is is the kind of framework navigation around everything else. So the main nav breadcrumbs and sidebar, and especially if you have a build in progress. I just, you know, if you go through with your keyboard you'll find all kinds of traps and I mean, we tend to do like the ideal path with like no opening of sub menus and things like that and it's like well I can get through open a sub menu and you will get stuck, or have a progress you will get stuck in the side nav things like that. So, I can create tickets for the open source to fix them and I'm happy to. I mean, accessibility stuff is kind of my thing like I'm happy to work with whomever as much as is needed to kind of make sure that what's getting done is is up to those standards accessibility standards. I would kind of like to get our internal merge process sorted. And maybe that can happen concurrently maybe I'm overthinking that. I'm a little reluctant to just throw tickets in the queue. So, so I'm not sure Christina so you're concerned there of. If you found a keyboard navigation issue in Jenkins. Yeah, it seems reasonable to me at least to say, I submit an issue. Then anybody could potentially pick it up and work it. Can you tell more about what your concerns are why you wouldn't want to do it like. On our end, like, currently there's no. There would need to be an approver on the ticket that probably myself right now at least, who can make sure that when the ticket is done it is actually functioning. And that's not just the keyboard navigation that would be making sure that all the area tags that are in place for that block of code, things like that. Okay, so, so, so what you're saying is if a JIRA, JIRA issues created in the Jenkins JIRA, you'd like to have you or somebody, somebody you you assign would also be involved in assessing hey did that achieve the objective that. That sounds like a real positive actually to me I don't think there's going to be any complaints about extra testing from people. Okay, great. What does it currently work now like if a ticket is created does that person become an approver like or is there an extra step to make sure that. No, no, we would also want to make sure that any subsequent changes, maintain it. Yeah, and to maintain it in subsequent changes. The usual way is test automation that checks that it's still well behaved. I'm not sure if that works in this case. Don't doesn't really. There are levels of automated testing for accessibility can do for the point we're at we really do need to do that manual testing. Okay. So could we mention lost in in the implementation. Okay, so so if you wrote if you raised a JIRA ticket that said hey there's this accessibility problem. If you watch that ticket you'll see when someone submits a pull request because they'll usually link to the pull request, and then you can go watch the pull request and actually mention yourself on it or, or make your own review comments on the pull request as well that also gives you a prototype build that you can use to perform testing so so I think I think the process we've already got can work for you. Okay. Sure, I'll give it a try. For sure. Okay, so I will go and make those tickets then I guess. Okay, so maybe maybe what you and I could do is let's let's plan some time where I can talk you through some of those steps so that you you don't run into unnecessary bumps and bruises. I think that'd be great. Yeah. Great. Okay. And once we start and I think it'll start to shake out kind of what what we do from there. Great. All right, thank you. Any questions or concerns from others on the idea of improving keyboard usability. Is this problem only in taking score or is this also in a lot of plugins. That's going to be subsequent phases, like right now with the level of issues in those areas, a user realistically using adaptive technology could not get to the plugins. So, I kind of want to fix the pathways first. And so first phase will be the navigation areas. And then we will start to get into plugins and things like that and those will probably be its own thing that we have to work out to, since the responsibility for those areas maybe distributed. You know, like, we'll, we'll have to kind of figure that out as we go. But if you ever are being scrutinized for accessibility compliance issues. If we kind of tackle it this way, it demonstrates that we have an understanding of the major issues and we are making like an honest attempt to rectify them. Versus if we fix something that you couldn't get to anyways. We kind of, we want to, we want to be, we want to be on the good side of things where we're demonstrating that like hey we've got a meaningful path and we get it, like we get what the issues are versus kind of going backwards like that. But it will happen. Yeah. And there will probably be some that are perfectly fine. And others where you know, great. Any other questions or concerns around improving keyboard usability. Okay, next topic I put on the agenda was what's happened recently in UI improvements specifically the one I've seen is pipeline graph viewer. Tim, this is this one that you wanted to talk to you want me to talk to it. I think the, the additions that have been made the changes in log viewing and whatnot are really brilliant. Yep, I can show what I think just playing. I was checking si jeans IO has said I think it. Pretty sure it does. Yep. Yeah, I'll just share my screen quickly if that's okay. You bet. So we've had a few contributions recently on the pipeline. Graph viewer over the last couple of weeks. Going back. Yeah, so we can now transition between previous and next builds on the graph and console views or show I'll show them all in a second. The logs that are complete rework from a tree on the side to kind of a main view collapsible card section. And the sort of thing. Scripted parallel stages have been improved nested script stages. So that enables the same behavior for this and this and declarative and script or some special hack stopping. That working and stage labels in the tooltip now show the full text. So here's an example. So this is the next build and previous build. You can open and close all the logs here and if I go build you get all the output in here. I should be a button for swapping in between them. I'm not sure why that's missing. And then if we go to this is a failed build somewhere. And so you scroll in here. There's a lot more output and you can also request more output. So you can previously you're stuck. If there was any logs missing here, but you can now click to get the rest of it. So yeah, basically a major rework of the logs for the pipeline graph view plugin anyway. Still more work to be done. But it's a lot better than before. Thanks very much. So it looks like Tim Brown did the work and you've had two or three contributors. So it's not just you who's working on pipeline graph view now. Yes, so Tim Brown did the core work. And I think Stuart wrote this and Mike Gelfand has done a bit of cleanup as well. That's great. Thank you. Trying to stop screen sharing but I can't find the button. Oh yeah, let me see if I can find it. Don't seem to have a control. Here it is. Found it. Got it. Great. So I'm at a point where I need to transition. I'm going to assign Christina as host and Christina, you're now, you're now going to be the host. So you'll need to share your screen. Let me paste a link to the notes for the meeting into the into the meeting chat so that others can open that if needed. Okay, so there are the meeting notes. So Christina, are you able to open up those notes and start sharing your screen? Yep. Perfect. All right. Thank you. Oh, it did not share the right screen. I don't even know what screen that is. Well, I can see I see the Jenkins UX say sig agenda and notes. Do you. Yeah. Okay. Do you still see it now. Yes. Okay. I'm going to go in firm as well that they can see. So you're scrolling up now. March 1, 2023 is roughly at the top. There we go. Okay. All right. Along with me. Sorry. Thank you. I'm going to disconnect at this point. My apologies. Things are what they are. Yeah. Have a good day, Mark. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Pipeline graph your improvements. Was there anything more to say in that for that topic? Are we going to. What's going on? A little bit or some a little bit into the details. Because it's a little bit. Large. No. The other way around as well. Oh, there. So there is too much. On the left and the right. Okay. It's getting better. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. So where were we? What's coming in UI improvements? Who would like to speak on that? Tim, do you know if we have something in our progress currently from young? I'm not sure if he's. Preparing something new. He was hoping to get here. He's stuck in another meeting at the moment. He said it might make it halfway through. Let me just have a look at what he's got open at the moment. I think I reviewed one pull request, which is about using a tipi for the bread crumb. Menus as well. If I remember correctly, there was currently one pull request in Jenkins call. Yeah. So yeah, there's a tipi one that's been open for a while. The only one he's opened recently is the simplified settings name, which is posted in the chat. That's as a follow up to the. To the search. Search box of managed Jenkins. To simplify the name. So not everything has configure at the start of it. And since there's configure system, it's system set to configure global tools and something. It's tools. There's a screenshot on the PR. We're just waiting. I think everything on that page is on that PR is fine. It's just. I want to check that the acceptance test pass, but the acceptance tests are broken at the moment. So we need to fix the acceptance tests before we can continue on any of these PRs really. These are the, that's the list of all the PRs. It's quite, there's quite a few open. I think at least a couple of them are waiting on Daniel's feedback or someone to investigate a couple of issues. The other one was the card layout or the dashboard on mobile. I'm sure if there was anything outstanding there. I'm not sure if you can see the chat Christina, but I might just be with opening up that for a question, having a scroll through. See what people think. Sure. Anyone have any. Anything to add. Do we have so many users that are looking at. Jenkins using the mobile phone. I think so. There's a number of people who do use it on their phones. If they're doing something from get up quickly and then just checking something. Do you guys have analytics. Or is it just. I don't think the telemetry we collect collect statistics, which browser you use. No, I think it's just more about Jenkins and Jenkins version and plugins. I don't. As far as I know, we don't have that information. I'm curious myself. That's why I asked. Okay. But yeah, so more feedback. Welcome on that poor quest. And a profusion of Jenkins JavaScript libraries. So an update to share them. I think this is a topic of the last meeting. Yeah. They are deprecated now and I removed them from my instance. And everything's still working. So. I think it's fine. Or did someone have problems with. Removing them. No, I think I remember. So work in progress. That's kind of what we just went through. Tickets are open. Is there anything else to add to the work in progress. Yeah. We have a lot of different names. At least we already had or simplified setting names and quad layer. Yeah. And for future, let's I'm not sure. What the state is, I think we can skip this one. Till the next meeting. Sure. Use your feedback feedback in the. I'm disappointed. Post. Community. That's me or from. Hi, Gary. My camera. Yeah. What else can I say. Regarding this. It's quite a lot already. And it's. Becoming more and more with time. Yeah. This is a kind of new Tira where everybody can put something into it. Or is all these points from you. These are all my personal thoughts or. Detections. Yes. I looked at this. Yeah. Couple of things. And I think for a lot of them, I think, yeah, there's really a problem. We need to change that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how we can handle these. Making Tira issues. Like for excessive accessibility. I'm not sure if that helps. I think the main problem is we have, we have not. Enough developers to fix these things. I think so. Is it Bruno? Who's talking because there are two commenters. It's really talking. Yeah. I am Bruno, but he's a woman knows everything about that. So I'm just shut up and let. Okay. It's my name here too. So everybody recognizes it. So yeah. I think you, you have a lot of points which are. Really correct. And for instance, making. The icons theme. This is the thing we, we talked. I think almost a year now. But we actually found nobody who is. Yeah. Making progress on this thing. But there are things in the general settings, but they don't apply to. To icons. Just Carlos. Is, isn't that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if we already support icons before. Yeah. Before this black and white. Dark. And. Yeah. The dark thing. Plug in came in. We had a lot of themes that supported different icons. So this should be possible. Still. I think I'm not sure. So I'm not. So deep in this CSS problems if it's possible, but. Since it was possible with the green balls plug-in was. So one of the favorite plugins that changed the icons of the balls. Formerly. And I think something similar would work with the new icons. As well. The old balls were graphics images. Yeah. Bitmap images. Yeah. PNG or chief or whatever. Yeah. The new icons are SVG vector graphics. And I don't know if it's the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if it's the same. Process. To replace them. Within it. I don't know either. Yeah. In theory. Yes. But. In theory. Brexit is only pure. Okay. Yeah. If it's not. This is something someone needs to investigate first. It's possible. So this was my assumption that it is. But I never tried it on my own. But what about in general? Should I create cheerer tickets for each of the points and somebody or a group or a meeting decides rejected or yes will be implemented somewhere. Yeah. I think at least to have a decision if we go for yes or if we go for no, that would be helpful at least. I'm not sure if it's make sense for every point, but for for instance, the second point here with the drop downs. Yeah. Because I agree. Some of the points are just out of personal taste. Yeah. I know that. It's just my opinion, but I said it. Yeah. Sorry, I can't speak to the icon question. Number two is definitely almost completely covered by the accessibility work that's going to be that a tick will be created for. This month. Along with a few other things. Anytime there's a inconsistent browser. Behavior those will be captured. In the accessibility work that's going the underway. That's. I think I can say to that one. For number two, at least. Sorry, I meant the two. There are two tools on the main two. The main two. Yeah. So this is something. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it helps to show it actually on screen, but I think there are a lot of points which make sense to. Right to Tira. So we can discuss it in Tira. And. Maybe we can get some votes as well. So we see is it's a common sense or is it just the single. Opinion so. I'm not sure if it's there are a lot of issues. And. Normally, we just need someone to, to, to look after them. And currently we don't have someone looking after them. So I'm. Not sure if what to do. Actually. Yeah. I can offer to solve some of these issues points. Which can be solved with a theme. By myself by creating a theme. That looks more like the classic view. Yeah. Maybe it's it's just a rough guess. It's a third of the points. Could be could be handled by a team. And according to him. Yeah. So these are. Not really issues, but yeah. Matter of taste. Yeah. But other things like. Yeah. Yeah. Hidden action items. Action controls widgets. Yeah. Which pop up on hover. And then I have to move to them in another step and get them. Yeah, this cannot. This is. CSS selection. Selections of the CSS library behind. Yes. So what do you think. It's the best thing to create issues for most of them. And individually it's there are so many. I'm not sure. Yeah. If the process has to be followed. Then. Cheer issues are needed. Yeah. I know that because I work with cheer on my job. As well. Daily. I don't want. And putting all these. Hmm. This major. Points into cheer issues. Is. Why the work. Yeah. I don't want to avoid investing this work. And then. Nobody looks at it for months or even years. Yeah. And finally they are closed automatically because of. Will not be implemented. Yeah. Then my time is wasted. For me personally. Yeah. That's why I'm asking. So we already had some you X. Yeah. Reviews. For Jenkins a couple of years ago. And this was a 200 pages document. And we pasted it in Sierra and actually nobody looked at it. So. Yeah. So I think for each of these issues you need someone driving them. And we currently don't have someone driving them. Yeah. Yeah. We currently don't have someone driving them. The only one. Really working in UX is. Tim and Jan. At least for core. So I'm not sure. What. What do you exactly mean by driving. Having someone who is poking. Others to do it or do it. He knows herself. What do you mean by driving. Driving the process or driving the actual work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The actual work. We currently have nobody doing actual work in Jenkins anymore. So. Sorry for being that open. But I'd like to be clear. In my speech. So. This can be summed up to. If you would like to have it. Do it. Yourself. Yeah. I accept it. And it would be a nice. Challenge for me is a. Developer and part time. Designer. To. To. To learn these things and to do it and then. See the result and be happy with it. Yeah. It's no problem for me. The only problem is time. Job. Which is challenging itself. But. I. I'm allowed to. To retire in six and a half years. Maybe then. And then at least then I have. I'm going to have enough time. Yeah. Yeah. So. I. Yeah. I have to. To investigate how to do it. Because I have. Some ideas how it could. Be done, but I'm not sure. I'm just guessing. And then this takes. To become used to the things to. Read. To get information that are not in. The manuals. Yeah. And. Who is the. Right contact person for a specific question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The clues we don't have someone. Who is responsible for it. So the best thing is to post to the UX group. In the Gitter channel. And I think the best thing also would be to pick. Your. Most important point. And try to start with that. And leave the others. On the left for. For that moment. And just start with one point. And get a discussion about this point. And are you ex meeting notes. Most important for me. For my. For my point of view. Most important. Yeah. Now for you. For me. That's the easier decision. Yeah. Proposing in the chat. To create an epic ticket to summarize all those points. And each of them. In a separate ticket under Jira. If you know how to do that. Please get it. Don't hesitate. Because Gitter is fine. But the thing is. Information tends to be lost. Because it's not really well structured. And so we have discussion in Gitter. And then also something more formal. Within Jira with an epic. That's a good idea. For me. Thank you for proposing. You can follow the chat. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's how. And issues. Yeah. Yeah, but I think it. It's okay if you have an epic. But I think it would work with labels as well. So I think. Don't put. 20 points in it now. Which will never get finished because nobody is there. Just start with one. And then maybe you can. Provide some. Yeah. Even if you don't provide the code, you can provide some sketches or screenshots or how to make it better. Or you can investigate how to. Yeah. To replace SPGs in a theme. For instance, these are things. Yeah. Which need to be done. Okay. And. How are the chances that. If I. Come to a. Proposal. How are the chances that it will be accepted by the. Community. Whoever is in charge. To accept it. Yeah. Because I had my experiences in life. And I had so many ideas. And I went to. The. To be. Yeah. That you invested this time to create. For your. For interest for your corporation. Yeah. But sorry. No, we don't implement it. And all the time. Okay. I learned a lot during the investigations and. And the research. But yeah. There was no final recite. Other than. I don't want to waste. Time. I don't have so many time left in my life. Yeah. So. That's a good point. So I think the best thing is to start with this one topic. And. First of all, before you implement something discuss it on. Gitter. So we can have a discussion around this point. And if. A lot of people agree, then we can start with an implementation. And maybe it's a draft pull request. So we can get feedback very early. And then you see before you spend too much time, you see if it's. Yeah, the right direction or not. You're right. It does not make sense that you are now. Taking. Break of two months. Working and presenting everything. And then we say, I know that doesn't make sense. So. I think early feedback would help. So even if you. Even if you. Don't implement something and provide a screenshots or. Mockups or whatever. It helps to discuss the topic. Okay. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah. So and I'm curious what, which is your most important topic. Yeah. I. Yeah. Yeah. It's a minor issue. That's just personal taste. Okay. Yeah, maybe the. The drop down. The hidden drop down manager. In the. Bread crumb. Yeah. Yeah. Which. Replaces link targets. Yeah. Distracting. Because you expect to get there. And an action is staking. Yeah. Yeah. There will be a ticket coming for the drop down menus in the breadcrumbs. Like any possible redundant work that might happen there. Yeah. Yeah. But it's only a ticket coming or an implementation as well. From our side. Yes. If not. If not exact, but heavily, heavily guided so that we can make sure that it's, it's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another topic that covers a few of my points is screen state. Which is wasted. Yeah. By vertically spacing. Increase scrolling. Yeah. It means if you, if you in the, in the sidebar menu. Yeah. On the dashboard there are. The. And the big executors below. The bigger the menu. The, the total of the menu is above. Yeah. Yeah. And I worked in a company where we had so many that I had to scroll to see all the, the running bills, currently running bills. Yeah. And scrolling is bad. If it is avoidable by a condensed menu, for instance, in this case. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same. Yeah. And the bigger, the, the vertical space. Yeah. The longer you have to go to move the mouse to come to a menu item. It's just, just a few centimeters. Yeah. But it sums up. In an eight hour day and in a 50 hour month and in a month. Yeah. I think the sidebar is something which is young also trying to improve and to. Yeah. To restructure because yeah, currently there are too many items in the sidebar. And I think he made already some progress. But currently the progress is only visible in the Jenkins. Yeah. So, yeah. I think that's something which I'm not using at all. And so I'm using configuration as code. So I'm just going to see the build results. And yeah, nobody's working on that topic. Currently. So. Yeah, this is something we can improve. I think. Okay. Do we want any follow up on this or just leave it for discussions and get her and then. Take a creation for now. Yeah. And then we'll bring it in the next meeting this one. Gary, if that's fine for you. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, totally fine. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Jerry. Jenkins three night for. Resolved. That's good. Anything else to add to that. Is that everything then that we want to cover this week this month. So everything. Thank you. Thank you very much, everybody. And we'll see us one month. Okay. Bye. Good month everyone. Bye.