 things just so they get used to talking to you on camera. By the time we go on, they walk up, they're fine now. They're just like, I'm just having a conversation. So it does make quite a difference. But that's why Sony is so successful. Like, we literally exist in a week or two just before. And we come without rushing, and we ask questions, we ask them, and we test the phone, and all those things. I quite enjoy that. So we make people calmer, and they're able to show up. Because I think the reality is, we wouldn't invite somebody if they're not an expert. And I certainly don't want somebody's lyrics to get into the game, answering something I know they actually know and answer. So it's always great to be calm, and we get into just the conversation. And I always say, just put it in, it's like, I was having a coffee and we're talking about property. Because essentially, that's what it is. Even the families are very kind of laid-back. They want to learn, quite eager to learn in the war. So yeah, and when you look at it like that, it makes quite a difference. I'm Brian Kappa. I'm a 10-time South African motorcycling champion. My family and I have chosen to live in four ways. There's some really great suburbs in our neighborhood. There's a lot of families living in the surrounding areas in places like Lone Hill and Cedar Lakes. What draws people to Cedar Lakes is that it's so close to Broadacre Shopping Center, Cedar Square, and Four Ways Life Hospital. Lone Hill is a major draw card for many families. It's got some great smaller commercial centers and some fantastic schools like Crawford College. From an entertainment point of view, Montecassino really comes alive at night. There's so much on the go and there's an incredible energy in the area. Our family just loves the fast-paced lifestyle that Four Ways brings. But honestly, the thing that attracted us most to this area was the active lifestyle that it offers. As a family, we've chosen to live in Four Ways because of the lifestyle and convenience, and this is our neighborhood. Welcome to episode 45 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Uzaman Dunwarkumala. We've made it to Friday. I don't know if it still makes a difference whether or not you're Friday or Monday, because so many of us, of course, are spending our days at home and I hope you are, of course, staying safe. Well, on this evening's edition of the Private Property Podcast, we're going to be speaking to the small-scale investors, because a lot of us, that's how we start off. You buy that first investment property or perhaps you buy two, and maybe if you're lucky, you're even able to scale it to three or more, but you get stuck and you're not quite sure how to move to the next step. We'll be looking at managing your property, managing your property like a business, tips for small-scale investors. And these are the tips that are going to be very useful for you to scale your property business and really understanding why you should be treating each property like a business as opposed to a side hustle. And I know a lot of us probably accidentally get into the property market or accidentally buy that first rental property and never quite manage it like a proper business and don't quite understand why it's important to do so because you're lucky enough to get that first tenant who's able to ensure that all the bills are paid and you ever really see the need to formalize everything. Well, this evening we'll be exploring why it's so important for you to do just that. Of course, also remember to participate in the competition that we're running. We're not announcing the winner today, but we're announcing the winner next Friday and all you have to do to enter that competition is to share with us what your property goals and ambitions are. And of course, you share that just here below and you stand a chance of winning one of two 1,000 round prizes and we'll be announcing the winner next week. Well, to help us understand why it's so important to run our property like a business and also how we can do that. I'm joined this evening by Robin Booth, who is the founder of the property booth. Robin, thank you so much for joining us again this evening. Great, excellent. And so good to be here. And you know, when you said it was Friday and for many people they say, oh, I'm so glad it's Friday. Well, for many small-scale investors, the weekend is actually just time now to deal with their investment. So it's like, I have a full-time job somewhere and the weekend comes and it's like, oh, now we have to go and sort out the plumbing and sort out all the hassles. So I'm not quite sure if everyone's gonna agree that Friday is the relaxing thank goodness it's Friday because exactly what we're gonna talk about tonight, which is, even if you're a small-scale investor, there are certain things that we need to be put in place so that your weekends are your weekends and that your Christmas in New Year remains your Christmas in New Year and you're not called out to your properties. And of course, you know, we all had this aspiration of property working for us, as opposed to us working for our property. And I think that's what we're really gonna be talking about tonight is unlocking those things. Whether you haven't even bought a property yet or whether it's your first-time investment, we need to have that picture of where we're going, what do we need to put in place so that actually our journey there is as easy as possible as opposed to one way after six months you pulling your hair out, you're stressed and saying this isn't for me, that's not true, property can be for everyone as long as you put those things in place and treat it like a business, even if you never have an intention to expand it, just that mindset of this is an income-generating asset for you and your wellbeing should shift that whole mindset of what do we need to do. And I think, Robin, let's get into it. You know, what are the things that small-scale investors need to be focusing on? Because oftentimes, you know, we always say, if you take care of the small stuff, the big stuff has a way of taking care of itself, but oftentimes we're not taking care of the small stuff, we're not putting systems in place the time, the day you buy that first rental property and by the time you get the stakes, your admin is in such a bad position that it does feel and seem quite overwhelming. So what are some of the very basics we need to be mindful of at the very beginning? Because by the time we add that second or third or fourth or fifth rental property, we know that we've got a system in place that best documents processes that we're going to be using in our investment journey. So we all know that property can create wealth, can create extra income, it can put your child through university, it can do so much for you. And I think the first thing that we're wanting is to know what your goals are. And what I mean by that is what I call your why. Why do you want property? Why do you want this extra benefit? Because there are going to be those challenging times, whether it's sporting out a difficult tenant, whether it is pacing the streets, looking for really good deals, whether it is going from bank to bank to get the best finance for your deal, that takes time and it takes effort. And if you don't know what your real motivation is, you will give up. So the more that you are clear on what you're wanting the property to give you or do for you, that will be better. And for me, when I'm coaching all my students, I start off by saying, put up pictures of what you want your property to bring you. In other words, if you love traveling, put up the destinations of the places that you want to go. If you want team education for your children, put up the schools or the universities that you want them to go to, so that when you're at home, you're seeing these goals visibly right in front of you so that you are determined to do what it takes to actually make that work. And I wanna draw this distinction between often people say, you must just do your best. In property investing, I often say, you need to do what it takes, not just your best, because there are times when you have to deal with difficult tenants. There are times when things just don't seem to go your way. And if you understand that the bigger picture is what will get you what you're really wanting, then you'll have that drive and motivation. So first and foremost, know what your goal is. Even if you're just starting small and haven't yet gone out into the big world out there and you haven't even bought your first million or two million, five or 10 million property, you're still just there with the 250 or the 300,000 brand property. This is still the beginning and we need to know where we're going to go. What's gonna pull you there? And that is just the first step which everyone should get clear on and actually spend time on really putting in place. So we now know what our why is. You're very clear on the goals that you essentially have and you're very clear on the things that you want, your property investment journey to be able to afford you whether it's opportunities for yourself, opportunities for your family, perhaps even your children, or even a legacy when you're obviously gone. What are now the practical things that certainly as an investor, you certainly need to be doing. Because I think it's not enough to just have a while when there's still the actual work that needs to go into it. What are some of those things that certainly, particularly small scale investors need to be mindful of at the beginning of their journey? So first and foremost for me, we need to decide which of the two kinds of investors we're gonna be. Are we gonna be the passive investor or the active investor? The passive investor says, I have a certain amount of money and I wanna invest it in property but I don't wanna have to do the sweat work. And I was, I don't wanna have to do the hard work of finding properties, managing the properties or any of that, but I want my money to be in property. So that's the passive investor. And the passive investor gives up their control of decision making of what happens with the property. The second one, which is most likely the group that we're talking to at this moment is the active investor, which says I want to make decisions about my properties or about how I spend my money or about the kind of tenants that I want. And therefore I need to make informed decisions. And that means that the responsibility rests more heavily on the active investor. And as we all know, if you're wanting to get the best product or the best results, we need to put in the time and effort and we've probably already chatted about this a lot of time, which is education. You know, I quickly just Googled that to do an MBA in South Africa, a general MBA will cost about 240,000 grand. And the purpose of doing an MBA is that you can then go out into the career world and then actually increase your income so that you can sustain your living. Well, if we're wanting property to do the same, we need to know what we're doing. Whether you're reading books, listening to webcasts like this, speaking to other investors, networking, we need to upskill ourselves. You know, people say, well, coaching is expensive. Well, I've spent over 1.5 million grand over the last four years on being coached in me getting coaching from people from around the world because I know that without that input, I'm gonna make really silly mistakes. Now, I'm certainly not saying everyone must go spend millions of grand on education, but certainly understanding the fundamentals of property will mean you will be confident and empowered, which will mean you when you're talking to an estate agent who might manage your property or you're looking for a bank to actually fund some deals for you, you need to understand what they're referring to. Otherwise, you're going to just accept what they give you and that will be the first mistake is it won't be on your terms, you'll just accept because you know, know better and that we can't let happen. Now, you know, so Robin, people are, so now we clear on our why, we certainly are watching the private property podcast we're on privateproperty.co.z you know, under the advice section and reading up different articles that are going to help us in our property journey. But now we want to know how do we make our property work for us? We've already got this property, perhaps we've got a tenant in, how do we actually then actively make this property work for us? Because we often say that do you want your property to work for you as opposed to you working for the property? How exactly do you actually go about doing that? So I'm going to challenge some of the assumptions that people say, well, I guess the kind of norms out there that people say, you know, location, location, location is the success, is the success to property. And I actually feel that there are quite a few ways in which property is going to make you money. Obviously, when you're buying right, when you're managing right, because with effective management, you're going to save more of the money and just give it away. And of course, when you're selling right. So we need to know what's happening in each of those areas so that we can actually control them better, as you were saying, so we can actually get more money out of it. Now, let's increase our yields. So first and foremost, let's say, as you mentioned, we have a property now. So again, let's draw the distinction between you're going to hand over the property to an estate agent. And I think we need to spend some time on that alone because there's this belief that the estate agent one is going to know more about your property than you and two is going to do a better job with your property than you. And somehow we feel, okay, well, because they are professional agency, we just hand it over and we can sit back. And I think that's the first mistake that we're making in that we want to hand over the roles, but we want to make sure that we're still responsible for what they're doing. And I do want to spend some time on that. And of course, the other one is this, how can we ourselves actually put in place those systems that actually make it where you can? Because we're talking about business, we all know that business has specific systems which regardless of what business you're in are all following the same principles. The fact that we need to know our numbers, we need to have management finances come through. We want to know what our expenses are. We want to know what our income is. We want to know that we've got all the record keeping in place because SARS, our revenue service is getting smarter and smarter at tracking all these things. They're starting to ring fence. And we're very grateful that we are, but often it's to the detriment of somebody who's admin isn't particularly well. I actually want to pick up on something that you've just mentioned, the Robin around putting in systems and certainly that even businesses around on systems. So certainly as a small scale property investor, what are those systems that actually bring in places? I can imagine as somebody who maybe recently just bought a property or you're even looking at buying them, you're certainly watching this podcast quite regularly picking up different tips and you're thinking, okay, so they're talking about systems. I know that there are systems in the organization that I work for. And those systems sometimes are often governed and run by other people. I'm just a small player in making sure that the system keeps running. But when you talk about systems in the context of your property portfolio or managing your property portfolio like a business, what exactly do we mean? Because I'm sure we between you and I we're quite clear because we're now in it and we've put in those systems in place but certainly not every viewer at home. I know when I started off, I certainly didn't know what some of those systems are. So when we talk about those systems, what exactly are we referring to? So let's take again that most of your listeners here are the more active investor have one or two properties and they are managing themselves, right? So first of all, knowing that you have a good lease and what the clauses are on your lease. My lease is 26 pages and it takes me about half an hour to read through it. But I need to know what it says there because it's a legally binding contract. And I often say if you're a landlord, you're either have been taken to the CMA or you'll be to the rental housing tribunal or you will end up going at some point in your time. So I'm saying prepare for what is going to happen which is you are a professional. If you're renting your place out to a tenant, you are a professional property investor which means you need to be responsible in knowing what you're putting out there. So first and foremost, read through your lease again and again to ensure you've got it because I promise you your tenant is unlikely to ask you what they all mean. They're probably just gonna sign because they're saying, well, you should know what you're doing. So first and foremost is that one. The second one is really under the system is understanding how to track your income. There's no point in you just sign in lease and not knowing what money's coming in, when it's coming in. And if you take this seriously and your lease says that the rent should be in on the first of every month, then make sure you are checking because your tenant will not take this seriously if you do not take it seriously. So there's nothing like on the first day, if it's not in and you send your tenant a letter to say, hey, you are in breach of our lease to have that tenant wake up and say, this landlord is serious. Whether you have one property or not that relationship shifts to a professional level and I promise you, you will have less hassles than in any other situation. While we're talking about that, I wanna add in for me, the best thing to do is to never say you own the property. Say that you are the director of the company or the trustee who's managing it because it creates a distance between you and your tenant. So if the tenant tries to negotiate with you and says, oh, hi, Mr. or Ms. Landlord, please can I get this or can you discount the rent this way instead of you feeling awkward and saying, well, I don't know because it's so difficult. You can just say, well, I'll take this to the board of trustees and I'll be able to come back to you with a response. And then you can just come back and say, oh, the trustee said we cannot discount the rent further. And now your relationship is still good with them. It just creates a distance. These small little things will totally transform how you manage your property. So that's a good example. It's such a great example. Actually, I have a friend who does exactly that. He does property management and I remember the first time I heard him speak of it like that he was speaking to somebody else but I knew he was referring to himself but he was essentially saying, you know, I'll speak to the directors and we'll come back to you about what the decision is. And it was quite mind-blowing because I thought, well, I know you're the managing director and this is your business. And yet you're speaking to the other party as though they're still a boardroom full with people that you must still consult about this particular thing. It certainly does when you're the person on the receiving end make you think slightly differently that, oh, okay, this isn't just a one-man show because even if it is a one-man show, it's not to discount the work that you're doing and the hours that you're putting in in building that portfolio. And it could even scale and end up being 50 different properties that you're managing and it can still essentially be that one-man show. But we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to be looking at some of the other things that certainly small-scale investors need to be doing. And I also want just to look at, you know, how we then begin to scale our portfolio. Because I think one of the things is when you get, as we're saying, some of the fundamentals very well in the early stages, it's easy for you to then scale your portfolio, especially when we look at working with the banks. So I'd like to give us our viewers so the tips are on why it's important to make sure that you do the right things first in the beginning and put in those systems as Robin has highlighted in the beginning so that by the time you want to speak to the bank in scaling your portfolio, you're able to have a more professional conversation with them and you're able to essentially show them what your record is. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, I'll still be speaking to Robin Booth and we'll be talking about managing your property like an investor or rather like a business and we're giving tips to small-scale investors. We're going to be back just after this. That's episode 45 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Usamantunga Kumala. This evening we're talking about managing your property like a business, tips for small-scale investors and I'm joined by Robin Booth who is the founder of the property booth. Now Robin, we're quickly saying off air that you actually had a story that you wanted to quickly share with our viewers around systems and how you are nearly trying to arm and leg in a liver for your electricity consumption. Can you share that with us? Yes, sure. So we had a situation where we had a property and we were very diligent with the property in that we were taking weekly readings of the amount of electricity that we were using and I suggest most investors should at least do their own reading every month or two months but what happened is the actual meter reading had ticked over so it went from 99,999 back to zero as some of the old meters did. So council saw that there was a 99,999 difference of units and therefore they calculated my electricity usage and actually charged me 1.5 million rand and when I phoned them and said, listen, I understand where the error is. They just said, well, we'll send someone to check it and they came back and said, the reading is correct. Well, it is correct because it had checked back to zero, zero, zero. And you know, the thing about the council is they had said to me that they will only process my request if I paid 50% of what I own. So I said, you want me to pay 750,000 rand for one month's error of electricity and I actually sent them my records and only because of that that they actually could they see what it is. So here again, classic scenario and again, actually let's just talk about that because we're in COVID at the moment and our electricity and water has not been read. They are estimates. What's gonna happen for those of you listening who perhaps had a leak that started two months ago and has been running out and no one knows because you're not getting the bill and there's no insight. That will crush you because council will come and say that leak is on your side of the meter, on your property, your red fault. So what are you doing to check that there are actually leaks or that there's a high usage? These are all the systems that we can actually get our tenants to do. We can actually ask them to every month give us the meter readings. And we just very quickly can just keep tracking so that we know nothing gets out of hand. Remember, everything that we control will enable us to increase our yields, will enable us to keep more of that money. And that's against a real example of knowing what is going on. Rather scary situation. I can't imagine being built over him, right? For a month's worth of electricity. I don't know how the person even on the other end but I suppose it's also system generated but I'm sure as you start to inquire, I'm sure that certainly the person on the other end also can't fathom how any household doesn't even matter how many people you end up putting in there can wreck up an electricity bill to that amount. But so one of the things that I actually wanted to talk about is certainly a lot of us who start off with us with one or two properties, you certainly want to get to a point where you're able to buy more. And you want to obviously be able to confidently go to the bank and have a conversation about them extending you another line of credit to get that particular home loan. Why is it so important then or how rather can no small scale investors ensure that when they're running that one or two apartment or maybe even house that they put in the right systems? What kind of systems should they be putting in that are going to help them when they then go to the bank and ask for that third home loan and essentially even use income from obviously both those particular properties or one if you own one to make their case. Because I think so many of us probably don't know how to best navigate conversations with the bank can be quite intimidating. And I think that's partly why a lot of the conversations that we've had with AMSA have been so welcomed by our viewers because we're often just so intimidated by the bank and we don't know where to start. So what are the systems or things that we should put in place that's going to help us when we start having that conversation with the banks? So perhaps the best way to answer that is to imagine yourself as the bank looking at yourself saying, well, do I want to lend this person money? So if we're realizing that the bank is going to make a decision based on the finances and the ability for you to repay that loan and is that loan secured by enough property not enough equity in the property to make it worthwhile. And if we realize that and listen to this KP is that I checked with AMSA just a month and a half ago I said, how long does a credit and approver take a look at your finances to make a decision on whether it's approved or not. It's two minutes, right? They're going to basically just look to see what has been presented to them and hopefully through some originator or someone who's been able to correlate it. But these are decisions that are made very quickly. So you need to make sure that all of your figures and your finances demonstrate that you know what you're doing and that your finances are in place. Now banks are asking for audits of financial statements. They're looking for monthly management accounts. They're not saying just give us at the end of a year quickly try and tally up all your details and see how much money you're making. They want to know that you are on top of your game. So we need to be learning that as we go along and ensure our systems are in place. Systems such as that your bank feeds are imported perhaps automatically into a program so that it's all actually done automatically without you having to sit there in the spreadsheet and cross-calculate. Modern technology is fantastic in that it gives us such power of actually managing our finances correctly from that perspective. And of course all those other things because the more we can motivate and show that we're doing things and they're in place the more the banks are going to say we can trust this person because you can see that they're on top of what they're doing. I think that's really important. And for those that are starting I suggest you even start that now even before you have found a property because wow, what a challenge it is if you're becoming emotionally attached to a property that you see and you get so excited about and then there's this long process of oh, I have to collect my forms and my tax forms and my management accounts and then you lose it and you feel so demoralized. Start now. Go and see if you can get pre-approved. Have a look at your credit score. How can you repay your credit? I know the private property has a lot of information on your website about repairing credit and improving credit. Get to know what you need to do now so that when the deal comes you're so ready for it and that's the best way to start scaling. And you know what? I must say that I've actually also had that particular challenge. I'm not the biggest fan of admin and I remember there was a time when I was adding more properties to my portfolio and I had to get different forms in place. I needed to do my balance sheet. I hadn't automated my balance sheet so I had to physically and manually sit down and have it done and there was nothing my banker could do to help because I had to provide that information to them and if anything it also just emphasized the importance of getting into a system of tracking income and expenses so that when I find that deal I'm not wasting time still having to do a balance sheet and trying to do it for like the past three or six months so that you can make a business case to the bank about it. And it really is something that we often don't think about especially the more properties you kind of get the kind of thing I'll eventually get to sorting out my admin but you never do it. And I'm quite guilty of that one. We've got a comment here coming in a question and a comment coming in from Shaqom Shaqom who says, thank you for bringing up SARS. I began investing in property a few years ago before I educated myself about structures. So I ended up buying in my own name. I have recently come across a unit that I would like to buy in a company. My question then is do companies also have a tax season like pay as you earn tax payers. I need to determine how soon I would be able to repay the funds. Should I raise transfer and registration costs through a personal loan or a rich uncle somewhere that I then loan to the company? So there are a lot of people who will give possibly varying responses to that one. At the moment, a lot of people are definitely suggesting buying a company because it also limits some of your liability in that and it keeps it in the property or in the company. And then they can say either a trust is holding the shares of the company or perhaps you can also hold those yourself. But really what we want to do is twofold is we wanna first make sure that our assets are protected and then we want to look for tax efficiency and see how to really make that work. Cause sometimes people just keep focusing on how can I save money and not pay the tax man as much and then they're actually not understanding that property is a long-term gain and we wanna make both of those work for us. So within the property, most certainly, you can, even if it's a new company, you can still as a director take out finance for that property within that company. And that is very much what people are doing at the moment. We do know that SARs is targeting trusts. At the same time, a lot of our ministers have trusts. So we do know that even within SARs, there still is a reluctance just to say, well, trusts are not a good thing. But as always, we want to have on our team the tax specialists and the structure specialists who can actually advise us on the detail. And I think first and foremost, again, when you say I'm certainly not the tax advisor yet, but I'm saying I've got a team around me who I'm continuously asking if I do this, if I do that, like I mentioned, they're starting to ring fence more and more properties and saying, even within a company or trust as well that even though the expenses, even though it's an expense in the company or trust and it's not related to that specific property, you can't offset the income from the property with that expense. And that was quite a big eye opener because we could. So again, we need to keep ourselves updated as to what's going on. And we certainly have been promising that we're going to have a conversation, two different conversations actually, one around tax, because I think a lot of property investors always have questions around tax. I don't do my own taxes. I have an accountant who does them. I've been getting audited every year by size and my audits are always clean. I always manage to get quite a substantial amount of money back from size. That's because I have a professional who handles my taxes and does them, especially being effectively. So it is of course important to have that power team. And it's something that you emphasize that you don't do property alone. You certainly have different people who help you on your journey, especially as you start adding more and more properties. Another question, this one coming in from one of our regular US BitBoy, who asks, would it be helpful to open a business bank account for only your property or is that not possible? So most certainly possible. And I would actually recommend that the more you treating this as a business and the more you can actually see all the income and expenses more clearly as a business, it will just make so much more sense for you in the long run. It's kind of like paving the way for you to add more onto that. In your mind, you're really starting to transform how you see your property, how you see the possibility of adding more properties from the bank's perspective that can also see your actually laying that out in that way. And opening a bank accounts are reasonable. It's not like this is opening up a massive structure, it's just a bank account. And I think I would suggest that and it's a good way to go forward with that. Another one of our regulars asking and this time around it's Bongs Sabakwe. And who says Robin Booth meets the Airbnb. My question is how do you choose a property for Airbnb? What do you look after? I know we're going to actually invite you for a very separate conversation that when it comes to Airbnb. And I know that a lot of Airbnb owners are probably in quite a predicament right now because of the effects of COVID. But I actually want just to invite you back on to talk specifically about that. But let's address Bongs' question, how do you choose an Airbnb property? So there are a couple of ways to choose it. And the first way that I like to do it is I'm going to cross-reference with one of the property websites out there. And I'll tell you what the name is, it's AirDNA. So Air as an Airbnb, but DNA, D for David, N for Nelly, A for Apple, AirDNA. And in that you can actually enter the address of a property and it will tell you what the predicted income will be for that property. So that takes a whole lot of the guessing out of the equation. So that's a secret. I don't tell a lot of people because that's part of the magic. People kind of think, well, it's a hit and miss. No ways, there's nothing hit and miss about property investing. We want to know our numbers. We want to buy right, rent right, all those things. So that website will actually tell you, it takes the surrounding ABNBs in the area and actually calculates what's the day rate you could expect, the occupancy rate and your annual income if you ran that on ABNB. And it's accurate because I cross-reference that with my own properties and realize, well, actually they're doing a good job. So that's the best way. And again, it doesn't have to be in a tourist area. It doesn't have to be in a fancy environment. ABNB works all over. And we will chat about this, I'm sure later on, I still had about an 85 to 95% occupation rates in my units during lockdown and even now and while still within the criteria of level three, four and five. So it can be done. We just need to know the right strategies. And of course, I think a lot of people out here at the moment listening and I'll say, well, how can we change that? So let's get on to that sometime soon. Another question here, Robin. This one coming in from Ramiz Hassan, who asks, do you have to open a separate trust for each property you rent out and what is the best way to keep track of each property? So you do not have to open up a new company or a new trust for each property. And I definitely wouldn't suggest you do that unless your property is big. In other words, probably over 50. That has like 50 people living there, yeah. Because it costs a lot to keep that going. In a trust, you need to do your financials and that alone is gonna cost between $7,000 and $10,000. So, and that's annual, right? So I would prefer that when start that small, you can do it in a company, get it going. And my rule of thumb is four to five and then you open up another one because we also want to limit the liability within that company so that as we're expanding, we're actually not just putting all our eggs into one basket. So I'll definitely open up different ones from that perspective. And that second question that he had was, how do you keep track or what is the best way rather to keep track of each property? So to keep track, from in my case, I in my accounting system, I have what we call cost centers and those there will be properties so that each item is allocated to that actual property. So at a push of a button, I can actually see all the rental income, all the expenses, all the bank charges, everything as it collates into that one property. So again, it's what the systems that you're putting in place on how to manage that is gonna be really important. And it can actually be done really automatically. I can say, if you see rent coming from John Shapiro, allocate that to this property and it does it all automatically without me even having to do that. I mean, that's what I love about technology is it transforms the individual investor like myself who wants to manage a lot of properties that I can actually do that without having to get trapped in it. And I think that's the game changer we're seeing with tech at the moment. Robin, before I let you go, any tips? So what would be your three top tips for small scale investors when it comes to running their properties or their property portfolio like a business? So I have a one which continuously drives me which is understand the difference between creating your own tension or tension will find you. And what I mean by that is at this moment, some of you listening might be saying, okay, I need to set up the system correctly. I'm gonna put in place, need to read you. I'm gonna put in place all these different things. That is you saying to yourself, I would like to step up to actually take action on these things that will improve me as a property investor. That is creating your own tension because it becomes uncomfortable for you. It takes effort. If you don't do that, tension will find you because you're gonna be taken to the rental housing tribunal. You're gonna have leaks. You're gonna have counsel telling you you owe a lot of money and suddenly you've got tension that's finding you. And I think that's gonna totally differentiate you from being a professional property investor as opposed to the best out there who just doesn't really know what's going on and will say, well, property doesn't really work for me. And I'm like, well, it won't until you actually get everything in place. So definitely create your own tension. Robin, we're going to leave it there this evening. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. And that is Robin Booth who's the founder of the property booth. And that's it for this evening's rendition of the Private Property Podcast. It's a weekend. I don't know if it makes any of a difference to many of you at home. Of course, if you've missed any of our episodes, you're able to either watch them right here on Facebook or watch them on our YouTube channel. So all you have to do is search for Private Property on YouTube and catch up on some of the old episodes that you have missed. That's it for us this evening. You do not want to miss Monday's show. We're going to have quite a surprise. I don't want to ruin it just yet. And of course, if you're missing us this weekend, you can watch Amandaisa who will be giving you this week's rendition of the developer's show. So on Saturday and Sunday, you can watch the developer's show where you can see some of the best estates that the country has to offer. And one of the features that some of those estates have, and of course that is on Saturday and Sunday with Amandaisa. If anything, it's one of those things that you might perhaps even want to put in your vision board and maybe start viewing the moment we're able to go to physical viewings of those particular estates. Folks, that's it for me this evening. We're going to be back on Monday at seven o'clock until then, stay home and stay safe. Hi, I'm Clifton Smithers. I live in Belito, where my partners and I run a business called Union 3. As a family, we chose to move here about six years ago. What attracted us to the area was the safe and relaxed lifestyle of the North Coast. We surrounded by so much natural beauty and we love that it's so casual. It's just not as intense as a busy city. In fact, that's one of the main reasons there's so many people moving into the area. There's some amazing lifestyle estates out there. We've got some Bali, Brettonwood Estate, and Zimbiti, to name a few. The Belito Lifestyle Center caters to everyone's needs. There's also some smaller commercial centers like Tiffany's and Salt Rock. There's some excellent restaurants to choose from and there's a really wide variety of activities on offer. From mountain biking out on the trails to surfing at any one of the beaches, there really is something for everyone. This quiet little town really comes alive over the weekend. The live concerts in the farmer's market at the Michiuchi is very popular. With the new international airport just 15 minutes down the road and the unmatched lifestyle that this place offers, it's no wonder that the North Coast is the fastest-growing town in South Africa. My family and I absolutely love it, Joe. And this is how it ends. I'm Clinton Lodge and I'm part of the SA Women's Hockey Team. I'm the technical director of TAX Hockey and also the assistant coach for the first two years. I moved to Ferry Glen about five years ago. Ferry Glen is a really safe place and the people are really kind. Some of my friends live really close by in suburbs like Equestria and Olympus. In the morning I will wake up, make myself a cup of coffee, go for a jog, Ferry Glen Nature Reserve, or even just in the neighborhood. It's safe, quiet, and the environment is really nice. I love Ferry Glen because I'm near the city but I'm not in the city. I'm a country club. To clear my mind, I'm on my own to relax and just to enjoy a round of thought. In Pretoria East, we really have nice places to visit like Menland Mall and Brooklyn Mall that is really close by. There are also a lot of top schools in the area like Pretoria Borsa and New York School Menlo. One of the most beautiful places to see the hall of Pretoria is the fourth cup of coffee viewpoint and that's my neighborhood.