 oh yeah this is the generative commons call on wednesday june 30th 2021 you're about to say something hank will we also be in the matter most yes i just i just posted on the matter most channel for this that we're having the call but i realized that didn't really broadcast it much at all so i don't know who who realizes and we're still we're still kind of in limbo about um we're we're in a kind of a limbo about calendaring because when i early on when i tried to set up calendars and invite the google group of membership to the calendaring it wound up being duplicated or other weird things and then phil has put us made sure that we're in the trove calendar but not enough people know to go use it and we haven't embedded that in our website it's a couple little goofy things about letting people know like where we are when so oh yeah that's too bad but i mean we'll we'll get it sorted out i mean it's it's not a matter that can be the conversation won't be concluded in the couple of weeks exactly exactly have have we ever sent the the draft letter we we worked on to invite other people into the conversation uh which letter i don't remember which draft yeah that's i thought it was for this conversation let's see um into the generative comments specifically yeah we we were talking a couple of weeks ago about inviting a number of other people with oh also outside ogm with very different uh yeah um thank you we had a goal to invite a bunch of people who who ought to be in this conversation or who indicated interest in this conversation yeah into it and we've not done that but i don't remember that we started drafting the invite letter which i did i'm all so disorganized i'm doing 10 things at once but i sort of remember that we did something in google docs let's see if i can find a reference to it in my own boots let's see if i can find a tab open with a with such a such a letter because i would have i would have left it in my way too many tabs uh getting open on my desktop i think that's what modern life is all about it's like tab management how do you how do you keep from being overwhelmed by the tab deluge have you ever used one tap i did and then what happens is they just vanish and then i don't know that they're there and then like hey they're gone good life is life is easy and and there are actually things i want to turn my attention to so if they don't stay in view it's a little bit like urgent emails like once they scroll off and i use i would die without gmail's priority email like like i use that i love it i don't like the three tab view that doesn't help me but the but the priority email can't live without it and yet when things scroll down off you know off the main screen i don't have i wish i could program gmail to three times a week show me only urgent emails because i have a label that's orange marked urgent and anything that anything i need to reply to is that but it's in but everything else is kind of inter twinkled with that and it just yeah yeah so one thing i'd say about about one tab that i don't know if you if you tried is that you can it's a little kluji but you can head different sections pin them and drag stuff that was in in you know drag a particular thing that was a tab into like you create an urgent heading in in one tab in it to the top of your screen and drag into it and it stays there and drag things into it that that's really that's interesting yeah yeah i'm pretty sure i mean i know you can at least drag things around within a heading i have to go back and check i use it not religiously but it's sort of like i'm in a situation where my you know i have the one tab extension it's it's installed so that i'm in a situation where i've got too many tabs open and everything's slowing down and i want to shut down and all that i one tab it so i know i'm gonna be able to and i i count on the browser coming back and refreshing all the tabs it had open which has been pretty reliable so far but i'm realizing that i should use one tab more strategically because a bunch of so i'm just i'm just assessing my tabs for a second part of my problem is that i can't stand apple's mail client and so i'm in gmail which means i'm in a tab one one of the tabs in chrome is like super important and is my gmail from which all good and all evil spring simultaneously uh so that's that's kind of weird right and i also use gcal so there's another tab which is my calendar and i move from evernote to keep google keep believe it or not so another tab is my google keep notes damn i know i'm like you are deep in the i'm deep i'm deep in the g complex exactly exactly um and then i'm using oh and i'm and google recently messed around with uh google hangouts and chat and a bunch of other things so i now have a new tab of google fi because i have just just to show what a what an acolyte am i have a pixel 4a and i'm and i'm on google fi meaning the hybrid uh wi-fi so my my monthly bill is 30 bucks my monthly bill for a cellular is 30 bucks which i love in in money yeah exactly well the bill to your soul is huge that's right that's right show me the receipts um but and if and if facebook we're offering any of these things i wouldn't touch them like i try i still trust google you know two orders of magnitude more than i trust facebook for example and i'm counting on google's not yet being fully evil but by the way the other cellular carriers are likely all worse like likely every every blessed one of them rise in 18 t sprint team obe whoever uh their practices have historically always been really really crappy to sell off your data and do whatever so yeah so i'm i'm like i'm at least with the more or less ethically intention bender of services i can't avoid the you know the fifth to least of all evils exactly exactly which is better than the fourth well i'm it's a reverse yeah anyway yeah um so then so i've got like four tabs that are just got to stay there and i always have them flush left then i have a bunch of things that are important in quotes significant things i even need to watch and put in my brain and curate read and filter and reply to annotate or something like that and and like there's probably six or eight of those open right now uh and some of them are youtube videos of somebody's tedx doc or somebody's interesting talk that explains something i want to know and not essential to like my daily life but i mean factor could be useful for this by the way and we should do a walkthrough sometime just to like you know i would actually i'm on my list of things to do is to have a call with you and phil and pete and whoever else you think is uh is on that about factor and ogm and all that kind of stuff um and so and so those could ease i think one tab could be a very nice home for those the ones i just mentioned because it's just like come come look at these later but i've got to know to go look at them and then and then there's a bunch of tabs that are open tasks which are a presentation i need to update a couple of google docs that need need you know attention a google forms survey for results which nobody's answering uh et cetera et cetera and and they're being visible and i curate like what's there pretty often because i'm overwhelmed by them they're being visible is important and then what happens is like yesterday there were yesterday in monday there were a couple really lovely calls for lots of interesting information showed up and anytime somebody puts something in the matter most of the chat i open it i open a tab and then i my intention is to go back and curate that into my brain and like annotate and sort of process it you know post-process it and uh that means that there's an hour gone after every call like that just to just to get those things out i was curious sorry hank i don't know i hope this is interesting yeah oh absolutely this one tab interests me as well absolutely um is there a way in the brain not not to to you know make more investment here but but in the brain is there a you know essentially an inbox yes there's a place that you can put things that are so they're in the brain but they're not not funny funny thing you should mention that there's a thing called brain box which is uh a different that's a different so software right or no it's it's baked in let me share share my screen real quick so here's my brain here's one tab because i went to look at it the moment you mentioned it and then this little box looking thing up next to my avatar is brain box and you can email yourself links and there you know this right here i have not opened this in months but the problem with brain box is that it becomes this little pit of stale information that i that i haven't curated properly into the brain trump falls into trap he set for biden seriously september 2020 um and so it's a great feature that i miss using or haven't grooved or i'm ignoring or whatever um so so yeah part of it is out of sight out of mind yeah and keeping things at the periphery of your radar in some efficient way yeah and and nobody's really created the efficient desktop integrated you know pym app that lets you do that uh and and therefore every now and then we're all of us like rebooting our machines because all memory's been eaten up and our machines are like oh i'm in full motion yeah so um so there we are i guess i guess that this is this is probably what you guys talk about in free jerry's brain i've never been to one of those a piece of that yeah yeah um and and i've been thinking more and more because i've been talking about it more and more what does the what does the multi person conversation look like right if you're using factor and i'm using the brain and hank is in kumu and someone else shows up using a different tool and we'd like to have a fruitful conversation with what we've done and know how what does that look like and i'm super interested in that question well that i mean that sort of circles back to what i was talking about yesterday just in terms of fostering the you know being being the ones well i don't want to get into too much into ogm because more about definition of the commons but um that to be participating to be a a platform and an individual you know participating in in collective intelligence in the commons is to be using a platform that is geared to interoperability and that's that's the thing that nobody wants to know existing commercial platform you know wants to lower the switching costs to you know switch switch switch switch switch you know as you're working because it's all just the lens on the same information that is your stuff so you can share your stuff in it's like a it's like google translate where you know i could look at your information i could look at the brain in factor and you could look at factor you know my factor in the brain right exactly you know yeah um and you're totally right and the vendors are not really motivated to to let this happen uh how do we how do we motivate them but also the distributed web the dweb is has the possibility of leading towards like the outside in solution here where individuals actually get data sovereignty but then they're but then they're also liberally and generously many of them not all of them sharing what they have and what they've connected and therefore it's just information that's available to whatever tools show up um and maybe that works maybe that maybe there's no way to dissolve the silos but rather you can build little icebergs that come in from all over the place and come in hey judy good morning good good morning we're a little distracted we're talking about other sorts of things like information management and how how what what does sense making look like you know 10 years from now which is of course a lovely a lovely question we were drifting towards the comments though and we were totally i was i was kind of about to say that that we were heading right back in toward the comments and talking about okay so what does that mean for how we agree to work and yesterday's build ogm call was really generative for this call uh and michael what you were saying in yesterday's call was was great uh it really um you showed a nice light on stuff we need to sort out and sort out well so that it works and and partly a paraphrase so everyone's not more or less on the same page and i'm going to only catch a piece of this so please complete this if what what i missed so as ogm becomes an organization like its structure and its intentions and its goals really matter in terms of the its trustworthiness and the motivation of other entities to collaborate and participate in the generative comments and so a piece of what we need to sort out is what are the kinds of entities what are their sort of declarations for how they work hence this call and this sequence of thinking and and what are the what are the most trustworthy ways we can set those things up go ahead jini a couple questions and i apologize for coming in a few minutes late um when we when we talk about the generative comments do are we focusing primarily on sort of its structure or its processes and how the two relate because i think a lot of if we want it to be generative the processes become really important yeah and and a thought that i had that's a super simple way to look at things when you're starting new organizational behavior is what i used to call start stop keep doing so what is it that we'd like it to start doing or the group to do that we haven't been doing before what are the undesirable behaviors that we should try to eliminate and what do we want to keep doing which is building on what we already have and that would be something we could put up almost as an ongoing query to this channel or other channels in terms of attributes of this channel thoughts add add to the columns of start stop keep doing and would build the cultural definition right it would allow people to affirm the things that they like that is causing them to come that's like the seed weed feed of group process right because seed weed feed is sort of like portfolio management or project management or whatever what uh you seed a bunch of stuff you weed the bad ones and you feed the good ones and keep going so similar to that it's very very similar yeah the little the subtle difference would would be the the behaviors versus the content i think the seed weed feed has more to do with the concept than the behavior in my head but maybe i'm wrong about that i think they're very very similar so i think however we would choose to do it i'm just looking at something that doesn't require many congresses like this to try to figure out what the group wants but something that's more direct yes um thank you and and so maybe that means we should start enumerating our processes or the different elements of what we're talking about and then do what you just said basically stop start stop and keep doing and and you could you could do it maybe it's something you can have a category that's like values slash behaviors right behaviors express your values but you could separate them too i don't know if we have any values we want to stop having but if someone perceives we do we probably want to know that but we could take some headers and then have the seed weed feed under each header yeah um and create new headers as they emerge from the seed weed feed well there's some values and assumptions that come out of the capitalism that we're all immersed in that we're trying to counteract so one of those values is you must suck the value out of everything you touch and it must be yours right as opposed to let's generate common value and then let's everybody make a profit on top of that value in different ways and that that's an intentional shift and so your question about process or structure is really important because there's so much of this that's processed or even behind that intention and if i could hack anything i'd be like hey if you agree with this intention everything else in the generative commons agreement rules out of this intention and maybe the intention is something as primitive as we are all working here to to create a generative commons together uh and that may be fuzzy because you've never heard the phrase here's what that means but just you know unpacking that should lead to the precepts that we're talking about and should be relatively simple to do um i don't know about simple to do maybe that was that was probably just wishful thinking yeah if it's worth doing it's only simple and something we can learn to do i think is the important thing yeah exactly but but but in terms of process like design from trust is the thing i want to stand up as a as a consultancy and the comparison i make is that you can bolt design thinking onto most any organization on earth and they will productively start inventing new products and services like i can show you i've been through the training i know how that kind of works no big deal but but i can't tell you that what they invent is going to be morally okay like it's a really good generative process you can't bolt design from trust onto an organization because it's about trust and part of it is holding a mirror up to your own organization to become more trustworthy to understand where it's reaching trust and what it's doing etc etc etc therefore the practice is not something you just bolt on the practice involves being a part of a community of practice that is holding up those mirrors and doing you know and and whatever else and and that becomes process and intention really quickly and how do you how do you prove an intention was carried out properly right hey we meant to be trustworthy but then we sold off your data to some third party which betrayed our contract to be evil and we we tried really hard to not be evil we're back to that conversation darn it but but there's there's a whole bunch here of sort of kind of about intentions that are hard to enforce and hard to monitor but really easy but but but easy to invoke if everybody's like running in the same general direction and sorry michael you wanted to jump in a little while ago but oh i was just going to ask judy when when you were um when you were defining the the stop start um keep doing keep doing keep doing yeah keep doing um i was thinking about it in terms of um you know we're talking a little bit about about ogm's role as um you know it's it's uh sorry it's a little um grandiose of ogm to think of itself as you know keepers of the commons but like to be um to be ambassadors um and and a kind of uh let's say pro immigration entity for people to come from the uncommons to the commons um you know we're the we're the the commons uh you know travel commission you know the the the tourist bureau um so so you're you're breaking up on us a little bit michael what's that you're breaking up on us a little bit oh sorry uh i'm gonna stop the video for a little bit yeah thanks michael can you hear me yeah yes um so you know if we're trying to more than the tourist bureau you know get people to come and settle and and observe the customs and moors of the commons um then thinking about what it means in terms of what you start doing stop doing and keep doing um um is is part of the the brochure um that you know that we're actively trying to to hand out to people so are we like park park rangers kind of you know i mean but i mean i think there's and and as a as a granting body or as a as a you know you know wanting to have use the power of of capital toward this um we're you know giving fellowship stipends grants you know i don't know you know what what is within our purview to do but we're we're making it possible we're telling people how and in certain cases we're making it possible for people who otherwise couldn't do it to do it that's totally right yeah that's our intention anyway exactly that it's kind of like also i think it marries somewhat i'm thinking that we need to have a simple registration process that that sort of gives us a little bit more than just hi this is my first time on the video um and maybe people come before they actually register but if we're going to have entities that belong to the commons and adhere to its values then some sort of extremely simple you know name email address phone number if you're willing the normal sorts of things but then's you know kind of like trove doesn't exactly spell out skills but it kind of does you know what are you contributing to the commons what could you do with us do you want to do that in certain vectors you know maybe i'm good at meetings but i'd rather run them in arts or in science or in whatever so that we start to and this could be for either individuals or entities right and so and kind of and what would i like to learn or gain from the commons and then i say gain guardedly because i don't mean capitalistically but but what what am i seeking in the commons right kind of so so that's really interesting it takes me a bunch of a bunch of different places because this started as the generative commons agreement which was meant at an organizational level and we were kind of heading toward designing that figuring out what that means um what you're saying sounds maybe like a generative commons pledge or pledge sounds a little strong but but it's like it's like hey here's it's a little bit like a codes of conduct for online spaces right knowing what the ethics are of the corporation right so it could so it could be that when you join ogm we ask you to go stare at a page that says here's our code of conduct you know by by being in here you're kind of agreeing to this and here's our here's the generative commons wishful thinking list um or or intention or something the intention is not a terrible word here no it isn't um and maybe that is a simple spelled out thing that says hey when we're here this is how we work it uh you know click here to go read the organizational flavored version of it which is the agreement that that you know or we want organizations to to connect to um but this is this is the intention with which we're working here and then uh michael you were saying that it seems sort of grandiose for uh ogm to be keepers of the commons which i agree with but but um i'd forgotten who has you know in basically integrity and interpersonal communications it's like each person is fully responsible for the communication so if so if you think i said something different it's up to me to figure out how to communicate what i really meant to say and i have a lot of responsibility for that so so in that sense anybody who wants to be a steward of the commons has an equal and shared and neutral interdependent responsibility for being keepers of the commons and having in your head that you are kind of keepers of the commons with a big k and a big c is not a terrible thing because it says this is important but we are all keepers of the commons in the sense that there's no one sheriff of nottingham uh we are all uh mutually taking care of this thing because it means all of our health and i think i think that's a an interesting thing to think about and we have a couple of tools to besides the start stop keep doing um we've been using regularly in the kiko lab calls that can suggestion i like i wish i wonder and we recently added i learned and so those are different ways of the they don't have the stop but the the attributional depensions of of the experience are there and we could take some of those things that we have already started using in some places and think about how to use as is or slightly repurpose but again all of it's around developing shared values and a sense of personal responsibility to both practice those values share those values and guard those values in the operation of the entity and that's sort of something that i wish society did more of in general well i think and and as a small tangent but really relevant here when ken brings in wisdom like i wish i like i wish i wonder ken's been a facilitator forever he has a large bag of tricks some of which are taken from or have found their way into liberating structures or pure godji or other bodies of work and one of the things that i wish we did was make those bodies of work easier to use more accessible more available to us and to everybody and wouldn't it be cool if when ken says hey wouldn't it be great if we use that like i wish i wonder if there was kind of a link to it and there was a page that everyone could be like oh here's a nice description of the process here's an example of it and i'm now going to be a johnny apple seed and propagate that into my other meetings because it was so functional here lather rinse repeat with a whole series of you know liberating structures has one thing called one two four all which i've used in much a bunch of different places because it's lovely and it says when you're when you're asking a big group an important question first give them time for introspection then pair them up then put them in quads and then come back to plenary and that process lets them let's them get the words out let's them think together let's them get to know people and then makes the plenary discussion much richer than it would have been otherwise terrific process that should be easily at hand and once you invoke it it's not like there should be a button called one two four all that invokes a you know none of that's really we could have buttons and t-shirts but but also there could be a button in zoom a programmable button that says hey let's run one two four all now that automates the process of giving of setting up timers giving everybody a minute to themselves pairing pairing everybody up randomly doing the quads i mean that that is a lot of manual labor for whoever's running the zoom and we're friends with ross mayfield who joined zoom and is is doing the zoom applets i think they're called zapplets they're called and he there was an announcement about zapplets just five months ago during lockdown i think and i'm like oh that's really interesting so there's a programming interface for zoom and they're looking for third parties to create zapplets that'll plug in so liberating structures could easily be a zapplet where there's a collection of group process techniques that are then implemented in zoom in a handy way that's a really interest that to me is a really interesting application of what i'm trying to do i also like the notion that's implicit in that that they're intrinsically exportable so if you use it once and you like it there's some place you can find it to use in the next group you're meeting with in three hours exactly and then just to recommend it and teach it forward and all of that so so ogm is not really we're not using ogme tools in our conversations very much kiko lab does a bunch now and then so does metacogs because uh metacogs does too even piragachi does sometimes yeah so and and piragachi does in hand drawn hand drawn designs a lot because i won't watch some of their older calls before we did the podcast interview and it was like here's a diagram of how this looks to me it's like oh that's cool um so we're not and i hate the term dog footing but but we're not eating our own dog we're not we're not actually using the tools that we're talking about either on the process side often or on the visualization analysis storytelling side that also means then that within either the massive wiki or someplace we need to have a list of the frequently used tools and the tutorials for those same tools and and this brings us coming that's a that's a part of the learning of what you're doing exactly learning to share in ways that are more effective and that's another whole flotilla project in and of itself which brings us back to a piece of yesterday's build ogm conversation which was about github and its role in minding the commons or sharing resources and uh one of the things that's on my one of the too many things on my wish list is uh taking the ogm wiki and building out parts of it to include and enhance uh things like livery instructors um and not by stealing them but rather by you know forking them with a soft forking them and pete made the distinction yesterday between uh he calls it big f forking and little f forking where keep worrying about the third letter changing yeah exactly yeah don't worry don't worry about that um uh so the um and a soft fork is is good a soft fork is how github actually works because anytime i want to suggest a a productive change judy to your repo of one of your projects i fork it i make the change and i submit a pull request that is the process that makes github work a hard fork is i'm tired of trying to collaborate with you judy on your repo i'm going to take you know i'm going to copy your stuff and then go try to build my own following my own crowd and so i think what ogm wants to do is like soft working everywhere uh to be a really good player in all these different communities but then to add value by instrumenting those different bodies of work so that they're really usable in the commons in a variety of settings not just as a zapplet for zoom which i assume to be a proprietary format that wouldn't work in anybody else's video conferencing but rather as a group process that could be available there's a thing called web rtc and there's a bunch of zoom competitors that have gotten very little attention over over pandemic unfortunately but they all use web rtc and then it's a web rtc is this pretty sophisticated protocol that lets you do multi-party video conferencing in a browser for cheap and like shabing shaboom you can build a beautiful app uh with this protocol so what if as if if we were to build zapplets because they might be really useful and interesting and make liberating structures much more available so do we architect them in a way that's actually more useful to web rtc competitors and happens to work in zoom for example then we would be feeding the commons uh in a really productive way right um so sorry that was complicated that was like three things together at once but but intentionally that's kind of where i'd love to to you know and train our energies and and part of this is like we've attracted a bunch of people who have um i think we have the shared goal of this collective intelligence thing or or just a shared goal of fixing problems in the world like the the food system or or whatever like like that's what we have some of us like michael have a startup and have a platform and have like code and and are figuring out a business model some of us have a thesis like dud car michael and garden world politics or and and some of the tabs open in my browser are some of like ogm members submissions to hey consider this this is this is my thinking for 10 years like how what do you think and and for me what do you for me what i'm what i'd love to figure out to do in the spirit of the gender of commons is how to ask some of these folks to pair up and compare notes and see how some of their work might either connect or or in fact merge i don't know or enrich one another and i think this is not doable in a crowd like the moment you get more than i wonder if that might be an invitation to pyrrhicotchi to think about how to do that because it really is an example of peer learning and sharing and they may have some insights given the depth at which they've explored all of their approaches to pursue that sorry i just have to yeah get rid of um there probably are other groups too so maybe you just put out an open question and see who responds but it's i really like that um and i hadn't i hadn't thought about there's very likely a group process technique described for something like this or or several that would be really useful in the process besides ken i mean the people i've identified as some of my resources include nancy white and um pyrrhicotchi and so forth and i'm getting to know open global commons and other places so and you've probably bumped into through kiko lab tom atlee and the wise democracy pattern language which is another another beautiful body of work right so it means that and those are things that that again if we're going to put together an online informal college of opportunities for learning and sharing tools and techniques and wisdom then there's maybe it is a library maybe it is a referral list i don't know what we want to call it um maybe it's a knowledge vector right knowledge and experience vector or something like that but it's sort of trying to look at all of what we have and how do you cross sort it most effectively to get to the wisdom the individual or group needs and this this this what you just said judy feels to me like the description of a the thing formerly known as a guild in ogm and the first build ogm call was i was trying to say how what should a guild do how do we structure it and we wound up saying guild is a bad word and i don't know what a good replacement for it is but the contest contest to name um knowledge content zones that that could be it exactly because that's really i think what we're we're talking about is individuals or groups who affiliate in a particular knowledge content behavior way and so i don't know if those are the right three words i i like three words because it's simple but it's not all content behavior yeah it's it's also about a particular craft or skill um i love the word craft uh i'm i'm all all over crafts and i think that like knowledge work is a craft and in fact it's multiple crafts that are sort of complimentary and and maybe we are a craft studio for knowledge work yeah and and peacemaking that hold on let's write that down you know and i was sorry i'm on i'm on kind of a weird mood this morning so that's all you're like dial me down if i get to be too much wisdom is pouring out of you judy we love that um i was thinking as as uh you guys were talking about the idea that um um in in knitting knitting together and identifying resources for people who care about what it is care about creating the generative comments and specifically in the regenerative comments um uh specifically in the area of knowledge sharing and um that that they're when you think about things like these are not the same but ethics.net which i don't you know or ethical.net i think it's called where you like go to find people who um do whatever it is you want done um and adhere to some good practices it's so loose and vague that you know i don't think it's that meaningful and at the more at the tighter extreme consumer union consumer union consumer reports um that like being being a trustworthy source of of guidance for you know here's some but here's some people who were who were working in this area and beyond that having the ability to augment good practices by not simply recognizing them but but inviting them or giving grants or you know whatever the the other things that ogm manages to do right um but but at at at very least building the the cloud building the reputation for being someone who helps direct you in your entry into the the digital commons or the commons period well i think it's important to have an easily acceptable behavior listing or for attitude listening some whatever we're going to call the conduct framing just because i think if you don't do that things wander and and if you do it then you have that to come back to to discuss what's what's happening that's challenging or what's happening that's wonderful and it's always subject to update or revision but i just think that we have an implicit at this point the the behavior patterns of this group are implicit and the group will probably individually um have a conversation somehow with an individual who's behaving in a way that seems inconsistent with the unarticulated shared goals and values um also relevant to this conversation um pete commons he excuse me has an open question he created a fact file which is in the ogm wiki uh with open questions we have not answered yet about hey what does it mean to be a sovereign in in you know in in this cloud in this flotilla and what does it mean when i'm engaged with ogm as a sovereign like what are the what responsibilities do i have what benefits whatever we that we need to sort of answer those questions and then phil kennedy is kind of the first ogm staff in a sense he's volunteering but he on pete surging he drew up an agreement which feels more formal than i think it needs to sound it sounds like a legal document sounds like legalese rather than than a simpler agreement but it's also like what what's the agreement when you're sort of helping and it feels like there's a series there's a series of maybe sort of escalating degrees of intimacy into what ogm and its neighbors are doing and and all of these things could easily exist you know on a web page with links to individual documents that explain each of them and all of them could be in a cloneable repository but part of the goal here is to have a series of documents and insights that anybody could go clone you know fork and pull and to make them available so so if anybody wanted to just like carbon copy what we're up to like done and if they made improvements to it that we like we would then pull them that that's hopefully how this works again a process we're not using that much because we're not nobody knows that we're doing stuff on github we haven't gone to other communities and said hey fork our you know fork our assets here and improve them with us things like that so i so i think that i think we need a we need some links on the on the website that say hey here's a code of conduct and one of the challenges to put in front of everybody is could you recommend other or other orgs codes of conduct that we can basically point to because there's i've seen a few really good ones and i don't see any reason for us to go invent a brand new one so let's find a high-functioning code of conduct and include it by reference and say yes we we love what they said and then let's figure out what the agreement is that we're talking about here um but there's but there's a back to the guild and i'm just going to use the language of guild for a second it feels like we need to stand up a guild inside of ogm particularly that cares about curating these different bodies of work integrating them and making them available and i don't know what it's called it's uh pete has context weavers which sounds like a piece of that task maybe that's the that's a task for that guild i don't know and i don't know how he was thinking of context weavers i've i've been trying to convince pete for more than two decades to start a practice called mavenology because for me from the tipping point where there's mavens salespeople and connectors uh i for me like in where the word maven appears in the dictionary there should be a little dot portrait of pete in the margin because he is the maveniest human i've ever met and and and i was like pete just buy mavenology.com and go like teach people to do what you do and he's he's had other other more interesting things to do uh what is pete is is a wonderful aid and assistant but i don't know that he likes to sit there and teach what's weird is he loves to sit there and teach one on one when it's just part of tutoring or whatever i don't think he's interested in making that like the main line of what he does because he's a he's a good teacher he's a a good he's a great teacher yeah but i don't think he wants to become an instructor so to speak exactly exactly he's more like a sage in the oriental arts practice behavior mode of you you're the wise person and you become wiser but if we could sit an uchi deshi with him which is like the lead student in the dojo if we could sit somebody next to him to absorb this and turn it into some practice and something else that would be really really cool um and worthwhile for everybody i think um so so so i think we're weaving a broader context for the generative comm commons agreement um a small side note uh michael you talked about regenerative commons also and when thinking about the generative commons name i intentionally set aside regenerative even though it's like like that wave is growing um kind of because generative was simpler and seemed to me to invoke regenerative but be somehow i don't know more innocent more inclusive more something i don't know why um but but i went toward generative just because it's a really simple word and you don't have to explain regeneration and and i'm a big fan of regenerative economy regenerative agriculture regenerative everything i think it's very it's a really important move uh a set of movements but that was kind of why um so what's next to to channel jedd Bartlett um if anybody remembers west wing and what one of my guilty pleasures of watching old west wing clips on youtube because there's like four bazillion of them recorded by random people uh my other guilty pleasure is watching leonel messi like work magic uh on the football field um have you um just to interject the are you familiar with the west wing i figured what's called the west wing podcast where they just talk endlessly about west wing i i'm not other subjects yeah i'm not i've not had it uh it's it's worth checking out for a west wing jennifilm awesome awesome really thank you um cool so go ahead i think we could do next is what we started to talk about at the beginning of this call is start inviting other people to take parts in these conversations people from inside ogm who we think they are really important for this conversation but also people outside ogm who have different perspectives on uh what's generative what's the commons what's an online commons and things like that and and try to enrich our own understanding of uh of what it is we want to do i like that a lot um hank i'm assuming you weren't able to find a draft of a letter that we started no i it must have been for another conversation of ours but no i couldn't find it either in matrimonial store in my own notes sounds sounds fine and i don't remember starting one and i don't see one in my tabs so do we need to have a unified draft for this or should we each just send an email to people because because it could be that if we word this properly that that that wording would be important and then i would happily start a google doc right now and we can kind of co-edit the body of a letter do we need that i i would tend to think it's it's useful in the beginning so that when we're inviting people into a conversation we're all using the same language at least to start with and then it can go in any direction sounds great um sounds great and um one a total side note uh there's a guy named john dimartini who talks about your values human values he's a personal growth author this is one of the many distractions from the last bit and um and uh he has 13 questions that determine your core values that's part of like what he's invented over time and they're 13 really good questions so i created a google doc with the 13 questions which my browser has now decided not to cooperate with but i wanted to share those with you before i create the new document uh do do do hold on a second there we go and i put it here please tell me i did yes good and let's see if i don't know if the privilege is on this work but let me just put it in our chat try that and then let me go ahead and start a google doc for this invite that we're talking about because i just i just went to create a new document from an existing document and i ran into dimartini's questions and here we go let's make this shareable oops gotta give it a name first all right my computer is now doing too many things at the same time my apologies um so i'll do that and i'll put uh i'll put a link in the in the chat in a second what else should we address and should we wrap at the top of the hour closing in on it that seems fine i'm finding 60 minutes appealing lately jerry because my calendar is getting so full exactly me too i will change these calls to 60 minutes to 60 minutes there we go something that that we could each i'm wanting to be kind of proactive about doing work but how to do it most efficiently and i'm wondering if something we could incorporate into these calls to the extent it it fits it or is relevant if there's something that we want to build on today offline to move into next week's call to see how we've progressed that might be something to include in the rat um so do you mean sort of a page where we could start outlining some of these different things we talked about in this call like a page online yeah exactly um i mean i can do it in a hack md and throw it in matter most or whatever but i'm just i guess what i was thinking is that i love the open ended generative quality of all of the ogm calls um but i have a part of me that's also gets stuff done yeah and what is it that i particularly individually can do to help move something yep um and wisdom is one part of what i love to bring to things because it's pretty you don't have to plan to be wise you just show up and if something tricks on your mind then you offer a suggestion and it's either liked or not but but i think in terms of the building that we're trying to do now it would be really useful to have individuals take something they're personally interested in and work on it a bit between now and next week and then share it with the group to say am i headed in the right direction or to somebody else want to add to this or whatever totally agree um totally agree so um hey stacey thanks for joining we're we're just about to wrap the call we're um oh it's a last call okay exactly and we're we're this i had set this call up for 90 minutes but i think we're going to start trimming calls uh some calls not the thursday call but uh some calls to just being an hour so that the uh we have a beginning is there another call stacey is it start supposed to start now that i don't know about no i think i may i guess i messed up the time for some reason i thought this was an 11 o'clock eastern time call oh sorry it's not it's uh it's it starts an hour earlier okay all right so all the calls are at 10 o'clock eastern now alas they're not uh so this one is so on tuesday on on tuesdays and wednesdays there's the build oGM call on tuesdays and the dinner of commons call on wednesday those both started 7 a.m pacific 10 a.m eastern the thursday call got shifted to 8 a.m pacific 11 a.m eastern a while ago and we'll stay there and and i made a small attempt to move the tuesday call later an hour last week of the week before and we ended up keeping it at the at the early time so okay but we also ended up trimming it to an hour um tomorrow i will see you all exactly say for the few wrapping minutes if you want to stay so i will see you thank you um so so i will work with pete and phil to start a page on the oGM wiki to contain some of the things we talked about here and then put that on the generative commons matter most chat so we've got it together i'll start adding some sentences in the google docs to uh to make a simple invitation for people to join and uh if someone else can start thinking about which people would be would we like to address uh then we can put them together for next week that sounds great and let's all take a a swing at making a short crisp invite letter and let's see if we can bring more humans to this conversation who matter to the conversation i think like like charlotte from pirigachi is a is an obvious person to to invite in uh she maybe and all of these people may be too busy for for yet another call but like matt saia and jordan so could indicated lots and lots and lots of interest in this this concept so um i think having them in uh back into the conversation would be great i think matt's headed out for two weeks of vacation right now oh okay starting when i'm not sure but i just had a note from him saying crazy busy till now headed out for two weeks of vacation so i'm not sure exactly what his calendar is gotcha and he just finished a big event a big virtual event for a client so uh i'm sure yeah uh stacey i'm going to put uh this call on youtube and then put a link to that recording in the mattermost channel for this group which is the generative commons channel thanks you are you are very welcome and that's my that's my pardon i was gonna oops you're breaking up you're breaking up on us again scottie i'll try again without video i was just gonna say you i am uh you are just a google ad today i am sorry um yeah and i and i i started working with a colleague a couple days ago who's all in on zoho and he's using zoho for project management and for a whole bunch of different things and it's sort of free resources it's another suite and it's it's got a lot of stuff that google doesn't have so it's interesting sigh all our resources anything else for this call before we wrap so our goal is to have more humans in this call next week who are interested in this topic let's be mindful about diversity and representation and try to invite people who might not normally uh vincent we're um we had a goal over the last couple calls to um we're talking about oh for like a like a number to hit yeah but that's if you know the goal of life or the goal of the generative commons and i'd love to hear that too but yeah i was uh referring to how many people do we want to be here what is uh so like the first call we had i cross promoted it in a lot of different communities i think we got you know there was probably about 15 16 people um i'm wondering at what point yeah what is the ideal kind of size that we want to have for this group do we want to keep it something smaller do we want it to be about 20 people do you want to be a hundred um i think yeah that's that's kind of my question great question um for me the way my brain works is like the right size for the interest in nature of the quest at hand and i don't know what that number is for this group if we were doing what judy asked us to do which is different people volunteering to take different bites of the problem go solve it and come back and and say here's what i did what do you think if we were doing that lather and repeat i think we a lot of the people who were initially invited would probably come back in and go oh okay you're making progress and so i think i think a piece of what will make us attractive to a lot of people is just standing up some pages and making progress on the questions that we're talking about because i love our our conversations are really generative and they're not turning into things that we're feeding back into the community and asking asking other people to pick up and do and from a functional perspective like for me 25 or even like you know 40 people on a google screen is is reasonable as soon as as soon as zoom moves to two screens i lose some capacity to see what's happening in the room but that's still manageable so if this grew to 80 people in the conversation and it was fruitful i'm totally fine um i would love that and that would mean that we're we're making some progress on on on fleshing this out so so i don't have a um i don't have a number in mind but it would be lovely to double the size of our you know to go to go to 12 for example that'd be great i do wonder if we're if we're um i agree with that um uh but also we've we've sort of um lived back and forth over the border of ogm and the commons today and if this meeting is more about the commons um are we are we inviting people to come help define the commons and connect us with other people who are interested in you know notions of the commons and um be be less denominational in terms of ogm in this meeting um i'm just throwing that out yeah so so for example what you just triggered is um we're friends with the ostrom workshop in bloomington indiana at indiana university on governance models for the commons we and doc searles a dear personal friend is probably going to go live in bloomington for a couple months uh and kind of be a fellow there because they've taken a liking to some of his frameworks uh around how to work uh the customer commons is which is his latest venture so i'm going to ping doc and and you know see if he can't ping some people in indiana and bring them in to this conversation because they have a lot of wisdom to share probably uh uh and i think that there's other groups like that that are completely relevant and might be interested in this conversation so in some sense we're trying to host or steward a multi pronged uh mission into figuring out what is the simple way to articulate working in in these commons together um and if we trip across someone else who is doing this already and better we should just go join their conversation and adopt their documents so so the this is kind of a general ogm working rule for me it's like if somebody else has already built it let's go help them and use what they've built and if they've built 80 of it and and it's open source then let's just improve their 80 percent and feed it back to them through fork and pole or whatever means uh and and still not you know not go reinvent anything that doesn't need to invention but but the whole purpose here is to figure out what does it mean to to work together on commons so so i think these calls aren't really as much about ogm as they are about commons and i think what lit up in matt's head and jordan's head and a few other people's heads was like well damn like we have interesting frameworks for dealing with copyright like creative commons but we don't have kind of a way to say this is this is our intention on all these different fronts together uh not just and not just on the legal and intellectual property front but on the intentions and methods front process front so does that sort of answer the question yeah i think i think if the goal is to figure out who else is working on this invite people in be very open sourced about how we fork and pole i think what would probably be most beneficial for this group is to take everything that we've done what are where have we gotten with the document where have we gotten with conversations um and we need to put that out there so other people can see it then we need to share it and we need to give some time for it to propagate around and then have a this is where we're meeting where you come back and find us because otherwise we're just working in a silo and the people that come into the call might miss the 30 minute might miss the meeting where the actual stuff is happening that they're like oh yeah i've been working on this um and i feel like we probably just need to have a bigger sign even if that sign is made of like you know um fireflies cardboard and sharpie markers at least people could see us yeah yeah i agree i agree and in the mattermost chat i just i wrote jerry to create a page in ogm wiki with some of these resources i think that's a starting point but that doesn't include yet like what does a generative commons agreement look like and i think we need a draft of something like that to sort of show and tell and all of these things would be on the ogm wiki which means they're on github which means they're easily um uh you know forked etc um so totally agree cool that makes that makes sense to me makes me happy anybody else last words for the call are these recordings uh unlisted or public these are public these calls i'm posting on youtube and then i'm posting those links into the chat uh the pages the resource pages should include a playlist for these calls i should do that okay cool um sounds good cool judy were saying something else no i just said it was good call thank you yeah appreciate it thanks everybody yeah excellent call see you next week okay i'm for just a second afterwards i will leave the room but i'll leave i'll pass you the controls how about i wanted to chat with you can we just set up a time later today or oh with me sorry i can i can hang out i didn't hear i didn't hear who you were addressing yeah i was just i had a question for you sir perfect um i will hang out and i'll turn off the recording well bye thank you