 What's your name? Paul. Paul? You don't want to shake my hand, Paul? Okay, Paul. So, I am under the belief that a vegan diet isn't correct from a health perspective, from a moral perspective, as well as an environmental perspective. If you wanted to touch on any of those topics individually, one at a time preferably. Well, I think what needs to be corrected first is what veganism actually is. And veganism, just so we're clear, is only about the animals. And it's about ending animal exploitation. So, the environment and the health aspects are only a discussion point because the exploit – don't stick the camera directly in my face, man. Put it down a little bit. This is a dynamic microphone. You have to be very close to the microphone. Yeah, I don't want to. I can keep it further away, but if you can start off. I just said put it down, like, lower. That's all. Okay. So, the exploitation of animals does impact the environment, it does impact health. But that is not the argument for veganism necessarily, so I just want to make that clear that the discussion about veganism is only about animal exploitation. The impacts of exploiting animals can lead to environmental damage or health damage, but that's not why we're out here. Those things are impacts or effects of being vegan, but they're not the basis for veganism or the argument for veganism. Okay, so the health aspect of a vegan diet is important. If you consider that there have been vegans that have killed their babies, that have maimed their children, and many young children have suffered at the hands of vegan parents, so do you think these parents need to be informed better about how to properly and adequately nourish a child on a plant-based diet? No, because I think for every person that you just said, which was probably just made up and I don't even know what you're talking about, for every person that you say is vegan who's harming themselves or their children, I can name at least a thousand non-vegans that are harming themselves and their babies with their diets and lifestyles. So that's why this doesn't come down to health. This is an exploitation discussion. That's what veganism is about. It's about whether we find it morally acceptable to exploit animals or not. So let me just ask you what justification or argument you have for exploiting animals. Can you answer that? So you think it's okay for someone to miscarry their child, to kill their baby, to malnourish their child, to have their child taken away from them under the condition of their moral aspect of being on a vegan diet. The reason those children were maimed, killed, or disfigured was because the parents believed in feeding them a vegan diet, this belief system that animals are more important than humans. Frank, for every person that you say who's vegan is harming themselves as a result of their diet or harm their children as a result of a plant-based diet because veganism is not about diets, I can name at least a thousand non-vegans who have harmed themselves with their beliefs and their diets and their children. So this point doesn't need to be discussed anymore. You said the point of a vegan diet is to eliminate or minimize animal cruelty, the exploitation of animals. But you're saying that it's okay for vegans to harm people because other people are harming people essentially. That's not what I said at all. Well what you said was for every few vegans I name, you can name many other people that have harmed and maimed their children. And I agree with that, but that doesn't justify the harming or maiming of children regardless of your beliefs. No, it doesn't justify it, but that's the point. The point is just because you're saying that vegans harm their children or harm themselves with what they choose to eat doesn't mean that veganism is debunked all of a sudden. Because like I said, for all the people that you can name that are vegan that do this, I can name at least a thousand people that are non-vegan that do this. So it's not a basis for having an argument, it's an end of point. Okay, so it's okay for vegans to harm people because other people are harming people now. So if you want to be cute and shit like that, how about I hold the mic? It's that way it's easier for you to understand what I actually said. So what I said is that this isn't about health, ultimately veganism is about exploiting animals. Therefore, we should only be discussing the exploitation of animals. Let me finish my point. So therefore, if you're saying that vegans will harm other human beings as a result of not wanting to exploit animals, that's beside the fucking point. The point is it's not morally justified to exploit animals. And you're saying that it's okay for us to not exploit animals if we're harming human beings. That's completely missing the point. And also what you're trying to do is you're trying to pull a red herring and you're clutching it straws. That's what you're really doing. You're really trying to make an argument out of nothing. I just told you that animal exploitation is at the core of veganism. That's what this is about. It's not about health at all. Do you understand that? Yes or no? I do. You're saying that vegans don't exploit animals? As much as practically possible, yes. Okay, so are you familiar with conventional agricultural practices harvesting of both plant and animal products in any capacity? Are you comfortable talking about conventional agriculture and how crops are grown? Yes I am. But let me just tell you that I already know where you're going with this because I've heard it a thousand times. I've been out in the streets for three years talking to non-vegans. So I just want to let you know that maybe I can save you some time and tell you that ultimately veganism, again, we need to get clear about what veganism is because maybe Frank, you don't even understand what veganism means, okay? As much as practically possible means it doesn't mean you become perfect and cause zero harm in your life as a human being. It's not possible to do that. If you're really promoting a zero harm lifestyle, a zero exploitation lifestyle, the result would be killing yourself. That would be the result. So that's not a practical message to promote to people. That's the only way to cause zero harm, isn't it? So my point is being vegan is doing as much as you possibly can in this world that we live in, this modern world. Being practical means buying plants, supporting the plant-based options because no animals are exploited in that case. So buying produce and if it does come from a conventional farm, if you can make the option of going with a farm that does better practices with the way that they plant and grow. Basically we should do that. But farming practices are a different discussion. That's an environment discussion or you could say that the practices does cause some harm to animals but it's not as great as you non-vegans make it out to be. You non-vegans love to say that it kills so many rats and so many animals but it really doesn't kill that many animals when you look at it. But ultimately it's about doing what we can within this modern world and yes, we should have a discussion about agriculture. That is an issue but when you're talking about being vegan in this world, it just means you need to stop avoiding the animal exploitation as much as possible because that's the most practical thing that we can do. And then you should maybe think about, and this is separative veganism, taking up organic foods or asking farmers what they do and making sure that you're supporting the right kind of farming practices for an environmental reason or maybe even to help the world a bit better and help the animals a bit more. Okay, that wasn't really my argument but you get to, so you're saying vegans get to decide the levels of what is morally acceptable to not. So you're saying like you're, no, well you're, give me like 30 seconds to present and then you can respond. Well you could say that after I say it and I, you're saying that purchasing plant foods is less harmful to animals than directly purchasing the animal product itself. Okay. So you are dictating that the life of an animal, I'm asking this, I'm not saying you said this, the life of a rodent, a fawn in the field, a gopher, an insect, who are you to decide the value of life and determine what you should be purchasing and what is ethically or morally superior? The value of life, when you support both, you support the commercial agriculture and you, okay, well you don't, you only eat meat, that's it. I purchase all of my products from a local farm in Pennsylvania, I drive out two hours every single month to purchase all of my food from a local farmer and I pay out my ass for it because I actually care about the environment, I care about morals and ethics and I care about my health. Do you think that's a practical message to promote to everybody? Of course it's not a practical message, but veganism is the wrong message. Whoa, you just said it's not a practical message. So how is your message any better? What the hell? So why, your argument for my message being impractical is an extra expense and spending more time sourcing your food. No, I'm saying you drive however long, once a month, to go and get your, I'm just talking about the produce that you get, okay, the plants that you consume from the farms that are only, you know, okay, Amish, whatever, they don't use any chemicals for their growing and they take, you know, they take care of the land, right? These kinds of farms are not as widespread around the world as we would like them to be. So this kind of produce is not available to the everyday person around the world. So that's why I'm asking you, just the produce end of things, is that really a practical message to promote to people that they only eat that produce? Oh, no, let me, let me summarize my point. Is it practical? You have to consume whatever you have access to that is better for your health as well as better from all of those aspects. Well, no, this is, well, the morally, the morally is what I haven't gotten to yet. So let me, let me summarize one thing. This might, this might steer, change the direction of the conversation. This is what I originally wanted to say. When I asked you if you were comfortable talking about conventional agriculture, you have still not allowed me to present my initial point. So while you're changing the topic that we had, so I'm saying is it practical to promote veganism where you eat plants only sourced from farmers that are going to grow according to taking care of the land properly and using no chemicals. The right kind of farmers doing the right kind of thing when they grow plant foods. I'm saying if we were to promote veganism as along with the condition that you only eat plants from those kinds of farmers, do you think that that is a practical message in today's age globally? My point was that even if they were grown in that method, it would still be harming animals to the equivalent that eating meat would. That's my point. So how do you, what's your argument for that? What's your justification? How do you justify that? You're saying that planting some broccoli with no chemicals is going to cause just as much harm as a cow that you raised for three years and then you slice up into a thousand pieces. Do you know how many calories are approximately in one cow? Yeah, I know that there's a lot. So how much is a cow weigh approximately? Do you know? There are about four human beings. Well, what's the average weight of human being? Dude, they're heavy. Okay, so a cow can supply over a million calories to one person. One million calories. The equivalent amount of calories on plant foods, how would you actually think you would be obtaining that? What type of crops would you have to grow? What food are you going to be eating to obtain the equivalent amount of caloric nutrition, 1500, 2500, whatever amount of calories you need to eat per day as a vegan? It's not from broccoli. Well, it's from all plant foods. We can get sufficient amount of nutrition from a plant-based diet, from a whole foods plant-based diet. Ultimately, what you're asking me is which would cause more harm. And what I'm saying is that even if we were to get a million calories from a crop, that would not cause as much harm as one cow. And the other question I have for you is what is morally justified? How do you morally justify raising a cow knowing that you're going to slice them up into a thousand pieces versus having some plants that you farm with the intention of only eating those plants and not harming animals? So you're saying I would be, what, cruel or not morally correct in raising an animal to kill it for sustenance? Okay. So how would you knowingly, till the land, spray herbicides and insecticides, kill hundreds depending on what metric we're using? It's trillions worldwide, trillions of insects, rodents, deer, animals. When you till the soil and you spray insects, you spray insecticides and herbicides, kill all the insect, all the plant life that you don't want, you're killing and displacing millions of beings without question. When that crop grows back, they multiply rapidly. Whatever animal survived, whatever insect survived, there's a new food source. So they start multiplying and growing again. And then what happens? You harvest the field. You destroy their food source. They either starve to death or are picked off by predators. And the cycle repeats itself in conventional agriculture. So how can you say that killing all of these insects and rodents and beings is, you're basically making a decision on what's better than another. And not only that, this aspect of conventional agriculture, how these plant foods are grown is detrimental to the environment. And compared to raising cows or any animal or biodynamic farming, there's a huge difference in the overall carbon emissions and environmental impact. You're right. There's a huge difference. And the proof is in the fucking pudding, my friend. I don't know if you know this, but the scientific evidence clearly shows without any room for discussion that animal agriculture is by far the leading cause of most of our environmental issues that we face right now. So for you to stand here and make some kind of, I feel like what you were trying to say there was that animal farming is better for the environment. And that is a joke. That is a complete joke. So yes, I am saying, Frank, that commercial farming of plants is better than farming animals. And that's because it's morally unjustified to farm animals. And I'm not saying that vegans necessarily are wanting commercial agriculture for the future and beyond. We want that to change as well. Okay? It's about being reasonable though and practical. Ultimately, if you're against racism, you're not also going to go, yeah, but what about sexism? You also need to stamp that out. Yeah, okay, but I'm dealing with one injustice at a time here. And I need to make sure I address that injustice correctly. So there's veganism and then there's farming. They're two different issues. And farming is an important discussion. I'm not denying that. But at the end of the day, when we're talking about veganism, it's about not exploiting animals as much as practically possible. And if we have to buy commercial plant foods in order to avoid the exploitation of animals, that is the better option in this day and age. Of course it is. And you said, so you're basically making a decision on what's better than animal agriculture. Would you rather kill rodents or cows? I wouldn't rather kill any. And you're killing, this is the choice you're making. Where do you buy your food? That's not the choice I'm making. Where do you buy your food from? I buy my food from all different places, many different places. Name them. What do you mean name them? I buy my food from one farm in Pennsylvania. How many places do you buy food from? Is it over 20? Is it over 30? How many can it possibly be? Okay, so we're going to assume since you're in New York City, you're purchasing food from a supermarket, correct? Okay, so you're purchasing food from a supermarket and you are detached with reality of what happens in farming, in agriculture and you don't want to consume the meat first hand. When you see the meat, when you see the meat, you think of an animal. When you see the plant foods, you don't think of those rats, those insects, all the displacement, the ruining of the soil. You don't think of that stuff when you look at that, I don't know. Already answered your question. In this video, the viewers will know, already answered your question. You are trying to act like I'm trying to avoid what happens in plant agriculture. I've already addressed it, mate. You're not smart. You're not as smart as you think you are. No, I'm saying you're okay with killing rodents and insects, but you're not okay with killing cows. I didn't say I was okay with it. I told you earlier that this isn't about being perfect. If you're not going to have an intellectually honest discussion with me, this is over. You're being a fool. I told you that this isn't about being perfect again, this isn't about causing zero harm. Are you listening to me or not? Veganism is about not exploiting animals as much as practically possible. I've said that three times now. Do you understand that now or not? Do I look that cute in this costume? Is that why you wanted to hold my hand? I'm just wondering. Oh, really? So now you have to avert by using shit humor. You're so shit, dude. You think that as a real carnivore, you would actually wear animal skins, but you come and felt like a fucking loser, dude. You're a pussy. You're a pussy, dude. People do it way better than you. You're actually embarrassing to the other carnivore crew that do this. They did it way better than you. You came here looking like this, dude. And with those shitty arguments that I've already heard from you online, and vegan gains already destroyed you, and for some reason you don't feel ashamed of yourself. Dude, are you serious? And you say that you're selling local beef to people, and it's not even local? And you wanted to act like you're trying to call me out on lies? Hello Creek Farm. You're lying. You're lying to people. And then you act like you have integrity, dude. You have a serious reality check you need to face. Do you have any more questions? You're sure you want to slander a very profitable business in public space? You shouldn't have said that. I sell local beef from New York on my website. And you're slandering my business. What am I lying about? Well, you say it's local. It's not local. Go ahead and watch Vegan Gains' video for those who are watching right now who don't know what we're discussing. Just go and watch. Frank versus Vegan Gains, he called you out on everything. Vegan Gains hasn't been making videos lately. He's too busy being depressed and shitting his pants. So what do you think of Vegan Gains blowing out his back, taking his shit? Several months ago. That's not an argument. What's your argument for not being vegan? It's a really commercial crop because that's ridiculous. Commercial crops is a ridiculous argument. I think I presented the conventional agriculture side and how you think it's okay to kill rodents and insects but not killing cows. I don't think it's okay. I already said that. But you're doing it. You're showing how intellectually dishonest you are to your viewers. They know that I didn't say it was okay. You're still buying those plant foods and supporting that conventional agriculture. Because that's the best option we have right now in this world. But should we be moving to agriculture that doesn't harm the earth and the animals totally? Yeah, absolutely. I just said that already. But if you think you're calling me out on, what are you calling me out on right now? I'm asking you, so you think going to the supermarket and buying plant foods that harm these rodents and insects that ruin the environment, that that is morally superior to killing one animal? Not as much as animal agriculture is ruining the environment. So how do you get off even trying to act like this is some kind of argument? Do you know what percentage of emissions agriculture is in general in the United States? I don't know the exact number because I'm not an environmentalist, but I'll tell you right now that it's already scientifically proven beyond any discussion or any debate that animal agriculture is harming the earth more than agriculture itself. So total agriculture emissions in the United States are 9% of that 3% is animal agriculture. 50% of the world's crops and I know for a fact that at least 80% of the oats in this country, 90% of the grain is put aside and fed to livestock, to fed to animals that we consider to be products. So in other words, all these crops you're talking about, majority are being fed to animals that we then eat. So your argument falls on itself once again. Cows eat grass, too? Let me finish. You are saying that agriculture is causing so much harm to the earth and I'm telling you that ultimately, if that's the case, we need to stop farming animals then because half of the world's crops and in this country, 80% or 90% of the grain being grown here, it's 80% of the oats and 90% of the, okay, dude, I know for a fact that you're lying about that. Yeah, you are. It's well over 50%. Yeah, okay. Well, at the end of the day, I know you're lying, but maybe the viewers can go ahead and research this for themselves. How about we leave it up to them? Yeah? Video titled, why veganism is Russian. Even if it was 40%, which it's not, it's much higher, you're still saying that roughly half of the crops are actually being fed to animals. Is every single, so you're saying that every single grain that's grown is fed for human consumption? Did I just say, dude, again, you're being, you're just saying that and you, no, you said, well, you're making, let's, let's remove the percentages because we can't talk statistics off the top of our heads. You're saying the majority of grains that are grown are used for feeding animals. In this country, yeah. So do you understand that grains are graded in what is fit for human consumption and what is not fit for human consumption? And that a lot of these grains that we're feeding to the animals are byproducts of the actual food. Yeah, we're not feeding corn cobs to cows. We're feeding them corn stalks. Are you saying that we don't have crops specifically for feeding animals? Is that what you're saying? The majority of animal feed is a byproduct of crops that are grown for human consumption. That is such a lie, dude. How do you get off lying to people like this? Okay, well, they can do the research on that one. Okay, okay, so the research needs to be done on that by the people watching, yeah? I would appreciate that. And then what they'll find is the truth, my friend. Yeah, I don't know how you get off, how you even sleep at night lying like this, dude. People are obviously going to find the truth. Don't you know that? They're going to find, obviously, that at least half of the crops in this country are specifically intentionally grown to feed livestock. Whether you're consuming plants or animal foods, you have to be out in nature to obtain those foods, correct? If you're at a farm or you're hunting, right? You mean in a survival situation? No, no, not in a survival situation. If you were in a scenario where you had to grow your own crops or raise your own animals, you would have to be out in nature, right? Grow your own crops and raise your own animals. But again, is this like... Okay, so the point is, the point is our modern life has allowed us to obtain food in unnatural ways. And if you need to cover yourself up and wear sunscreen and you can't even be in the sun for a couple hours in New York City... Hey, why did you shave? Why did I shave? Why did you shave your face? It's not natural, dude. Because I don't want to look like a dirty piece of shit in the middle of New York City. So you think, oh, okay, so that, this guy, man. Got a tattoo on your neck. Your face and you're standing, you're saying, don't use sunscreen. What? Dude, your argument is nature, though. And then you shave your face and then you say, oh, I don't want to look like a piece of shit. Your arguments are fucking laughable, dude. You do understand there are some indigenous people that didn't have facial hair and some people don't grow facial hair, right? And so what? Every single... I know that you shaved your face and that's why I'm asking you. Every single human has to be in the sun outside in nature to obtain food. Shaving has nothing to do with that. Let me explain this again, because it seems to have flown over your head. No, no, no. That's not the argument. Yes, it is. You said it's not natural. The argument is that in order to procure calories as a human being, you have to be out in the sun. Because our modern amenities have allowed us to use supermarkets and obtain our food without having to be out in nature. What has that got to do with you needlessly exploiting animals? My point is that you have to wear sunscreen and cover up because you can't even be out in the sun for a few hours. Shave your face because you can't live with the fact that you're ugly. We'll let the viewers decide that one. The guy wearing sunglasses. All right, who's next? I've had enough of this. End of discussion. Now, how are you feeling? So are you get over it, baby? It's all right. He's like, I'm feeling fucking nice today, man.