 Borno leaders agree to forgive and accept 3,000 repentant terrorists. And Edo-State lawmakers elect still not inaugurated after two years. This is PLOS Politics and I am Osao Ghye, Oghbama. Community leaders in Borno State have agreed to the return of repentant Boko Haram terrorists into their communities. Also, Senators representing Borno State in the National Assembly have proposed the construction of a settlement for all repentant Boko Haram terrorists. Joining us to discuss this is security specialist Kabeer Adamou and legal practitioner Maxwell Akbaram. Thanks for joining us, Ms. Akbaram. It's my pleasure. Thank you very much. Great to have you on the program and just before Kabeer Adamou joins us, let's start with talking about the idea of repentant terrorists. We've heard this a few times in the last few years. But at the same time, we're still here of attacks. Not long ago we heard of the attacker on the Nigerian Defense Academy. This morning we spoke about Senator Ibn Nalla. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Listen, Ms. Brick, we are not too audible. We are not audible. Alright. Can you hear me in any way, Clara, now? Stop. Let me see. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can. Can you hear me clearly? Yes. The thing is, I continue. Let me try. Alright. I just wanted you to start with talking about the fact that there are reports of repentant terrorists, but at the same time we're still having attacks in certain parts of the country. What does that say to you? Okay. If you can hear me, you're talking about the repentance, the purported repentance, the Boko Haram and the bandits, and the consequent and subsequent attack on the military formations and their distance. So, you are trying to place it up by sight, whether they will still have truly repentant Boko Haram. Well, yes. Let's hear your thoughts on that. Now, in the first instance, I want to say this then, with due respect to that friend, who they are politicizing everything, they are playing with the last of Nigeria. Because one, once somebody said that he has repented, just like in our day-to-day activities, if your own son or your own child committed a crime in the house, and he said, Daddy, forgive me. I have repented. I won't do it again. You will say, yes, I have forgiven you. But you will still watch that your child, whether he or she has truly repented. What do I mean? If the person committed a crime in the morning and he pleaded with you, say, Daddy, please forgive me. I have repented. And then you are still trying to see if he has actually repented. He committed a crime again in the afternoon. And we are still talking about that. He committed a crime again in the evening. Then where is the repentance there? If you should ask me. There are no state policies with the ocean. And you don't have to have any atom of repentance. And once somebody said that he has repented, and someone who committed this kind of genocide, who has killed, who has done a lot of things, who has been in the bush for years, for months. And the person I'll tell you that I have repented. What? I have a responsible government. You don't, you don't accept it in Ukraine, I'm thinking. You first of all, as a person, I have accepted. Yes, you have repented. I have accepted that you have repented. But let me just watch you. I don't know whether you are hearing what I'm saying. Yes, I am, Mr. Akbar. But kindly hold on. Now, now, now, you watch the person. If the people say that they have repented, you first of all, receive them. When you receive them, you will not confine them in a place that they will be rehabilitated. I'm talking about in a correctional place. Then when you capture them, please, that's where they will be. They will be rehabilitated. And their reputation is something, it's not something that you take for one day. It's not a one-week something. It's not one-month something. It's not really one-year something. When you rehabilitate them, then you not capture them and watch them. I don't know whether you are getting what I'm saying. Somebody who has been living in the bush, a committed client for years, who just worked off, he said that they have repented. On that three days, you ask them on that one week, you ask them that they have repented. You have repented. You have let them understand. You recruit them back to the military. You recruit them back. You recruit them back to the space. Are we not joking? All right, hold on. Hold on to Saqqara. Kindly hold on. I want to bring in a security specialist, Kabeera Damu. Mr. Damu, can you hear us? Yes, I can hear you. Good evening. Good evening. Thanks for joining us. Great to see you again. So now one of the challenges that I feel like Nigeria has, the media even has with this, is being able to distinguish between bandits, ISWAP, Boko Haram, or non-gone men and know who's repenting and who's not repenting so we can know if there's a path that is repenting and then there's still those who are attacking the Nigerian Defense Academy. But aside that, is it possible or should we instead be rehabilitating these people while being incarcerated? Yes. I agree with you totally that this is one of the challenges, not just with the media, but even with some policy makers, unfortunately, the inability to desegregate the various players within the security sub-sector, it's very important that we desegregate them and then once we desegregate them, of course we will know what is driving them, would also know what to do to address the challenges. Now, the repentant ones that we have seen in the last few weeks are in the Northeast and specifically from two groups and in fact, if I narrow it down from one specific group, that is the Jamaat Al-Ahli Sena, otherwise called Boko Haram. Now, there are a few members of the other group which is the Islamic State in West Africa province that have also surrendered. Now, having said that, why are they surrendering? Are they surrendering because they have recanted on the ideology in the first place that led them to become terrorists? The answer is likely no. The reasons that we're hearing that is making them surrender are reasons around difficulty in their camps, then the fact that their commander has been killed and the fact that the group that led to the debt of their commander, which is the Islamic State in West Africa province is giving them the option to either join in their fold or to go back to the Nigerian military and it's all propaganda. They would usually add that if you go back to the Nigerian military, the military is going to kill you. So those are the reasons and that brings us to the more important point. If they haven't dropped the ideology, what does that mean that if they come back into the society, they will continue propagating that ideology or even become informants or suppliers as it were for the main group that they belong to which is the Jamat al-Ali and al-Dawat al-Waljiha. Now the good news and I must at this stage comment to the governor of Bournemouth State, he is consistently showing himself as an exemplary leader. What he did is when he realized this situation he felt that this situation needs more than what the state government can handle. So he reached out to Mr. President and incidentally just yesterday they also organized an elders meeting a stakeholders meeting where the state as a whole sat down, reviewed the situation and came out with certain recommendations. Now whether the federal government is going to accept those recommendations or not or one is a bit unsure but just as an example to mention to you what the recommendations are they talked about profiling of these members of the especially the Jamat al-Ali and al-Dawat al-Waljiha and then of course they talked about building a center that's the operation safe corridor center in Bournemouth State where these repentant bookworms will be put through. They also talked about the fact that even if they are put through this process how are they going to be rehabilitated and then in this for this particular reason encourage the federal government to assist the Bournemouth State government in terms of rehabilitation. So what am I trying to drive at the issue is not as simple as just looking at the fact that these are repentant members of Boko Haramit it has to go through a process. Now the federal government does have a process but then even then how do we go about in terms of implementing this process. This process was meant for repentant members of the group. It wasn't meant for commanders who have blood on their hands and now that is where we need to disaggregate the issues. If there are commanders among them that have blood on their hands what are we going to do for the commanders? Are we going to say okay forgive them too and then put them through the process of operational corridor perhaps in the course of the conversation I will talk about this other component I will stop here. Okay we're going to come back to you Maxwell Aquaro let's bring you in again and I think this is also one of the angles that is important in this conversation who really should be given forgiveness to people who have cost loss of lives in tens of thousands there are currently people in IDP camps scattered across northern Nigeria and even as down here down in Edo state should state governors be able to give you know offer forgiveness to these terrorists on behalf of the people who have been the victims of their atrocities? That is what you are talking about I don't know the reason why everybody should be talking about the person who committed the crime nobody should be talking about the dissing of the victims the crime they should have been first of all gave those people for their wife's sake the people that have supported them these people have lost their husband they have lost their wife they have lost their father they have lost their mother they have lost their children and then they come then the criminal that that was not even see any kind of repentance in him you are not thinking of how to make him to be happy how to make him to relax nobody is talking about the people in the IDP camp is it not funny are you not encouraging people to go to go and commit crime they are encouraging people to go and commit crime after committing crime you will not come back they will still enjoy the process of their crime they will still go free in the name of amnesty some of us have not even repent so I don't know how to I don't know how to address this issue it's confusing amnesty they are using amnesty go and check what amnesty amnesty you don't mean amnesty amnesty has to do with somebody who committed a crime against a state and the crime has to do with its political on that too no what are you fighting what is that that you are fighting what you call a year ago was able to exercise amnesty amnesty for the men the Nigerian family because they have something they are fighting and it was the address that people now what are they fighting for what are they asking for these are the people who have the skills that they remember they still represent in the name of amnesty and they have subjected a lot of people they have subjected people to their to their amnesty so I don't know how to address this issue I don't know how to address this issue I don't know Harry is it fair that we aren't fair we are what the government or for the Nigerian government to give amnesty or to grant forgiveness to those people who have committed these atrocities for the last decade of Nigeria is it fair that the government gives amnesty to I don't even know what to call it at this stage. We cannot isolate it from the general counterterrorism operation. If you give me a little bit of time, I'll give you background to where we are, why, where, where we are at the moment. In 2014, the then Minister of Foreign Affairs, if I remember well, yeah, Minister of Foreign Affairs Dr. Ongozi Okonjowela, who is now the BGWTO, took a document called countering violent extremism to the United Nations General Assembly meeting, which normally holds in every September. And this document contained four key components of Nigeria's counterterrorism strategy. One of the components, which is why I'm bringing it up, has to do with the radicalization and counter-radicalization. Now, how was Nigeria going to achieve this radicalization and counter-radicalization? It was through this operation, safe corridor. And the UN endorsed that document, not just the UN, several multilateral partners, including the EU and other development organizations that are present in Nigeria. And as far as I know, they donated to that effort. And that was how Operation Safe Corridor was eventually implemented in 2015 under the current administration. Now, let's lead up to 2021. As far as I know, there is an institute in Gombe State that puts these persons, let's be very careful in the use of what they are supposed to be low-level members of the group that have repented, not commanders. They put them through 16 weeks of intensive radicalization effort and counter-radicalization effort that about 18 different experts, including skill acquisitions, vocation, training, named them. And at the end of these 16 weeks, a psychologist will evaluate the process to determine whether the radicalization process was successful or not, after which the person would be relieved and then he or she would be rehabilitated. Now, I have had this privilege of evaluating some of the components of this entire process. From the time the person comes out from wherever he is and declares himself as a repentant terrorist, the process starts from profiling him through the documentation, during which several questions will be asked, and then he will now be transported if he is accepted as someone that can be put into the program. Of course, there are others that would not be accepted and they would be subjected to the normal chains of loss, perhaps under the Terrorism Prevention Act or whatever it is that they have been found guilty of. Now, the challenge has been over time, and I'm sure my co-discussant who is a lawyer will understand that conviction is always a huge problem in Nigeria. So you are faced with one of two things. If someone is arrested, either you put him through the Operation Safe Corridor or you subject him through the court process for conviction. I am not sure, and perhaps my lawyer co-discussant would clarify this. How many of them have been convicted under the Terrorism Prevention Act, as amended 2013? I am not aware that one person should have been convicted. But isn't it a failure of the Nigerian government to have the Terrorism Act and still not be able to use it at a time like this? One of the reasons why we have insecurity in Nigeria is the ineffective and inefficient criminal justice system. I don't even need to go far. Currently, we are dealing with a situation in politics where you are seeing cuts of competent jurisdiction, of the same ruling on issues that have created a situation that has a non-legal person am embarrassed that will happen. So it's the same situation that you are having in other parts of law enforcement. In this instance, it's terrorism. And I can tell you the last time I checked, there are almost about 5,000 persons that have been arrested and that are waiting trial under that Act. So one of two things, either you put them through the Operation Safe Corridor or you now lock them up while they are waiting for trial. My honest opinion is either we improve on our legal systems so that we're able to prosecute them or we do the other one. And then the other challenge is that even under the TPA, the Terrorism Prevention Act, there is no dead penalty. I think the highest sentence in that law, if I remember well, is around 15 years. So what happens after 15 years? That person has been prosecuted, he's been sentenced. At the end of the day, he will be relieved. And when he's relieved, where is he going back to? He's going back into the society. Well, 15 years should be enough time for proper rehabilitation and for re-radicalization, I believe, if the government truly has. Because I remember they changed the name from, changed the name to Nigerian Correctional Center or something like that. Shouldn't that be enough time to correct? The entire criminal justice system has issues. So the correctional services have their own issues. I can bet you at the end of 15 years, what you have is a more hardened criminal and terrorist, and not a rehabilitated terrorist. And this is a fact, unfortunately. Okay, Maxwell O'Para, I'm coming back to you now. To share your thoughts on the, what do you think is the possibility of actually de-radicalizing some of all these persons? And do you also think that the government should be able to take a firmer stance against terrorism to prevent anybody who wants to consider joining the terror group in the future? The thing there is that you must treat a terrorist as a terrorist. That's just in, you can witness what happened. In the column is agitating for self-determination within the organization called IPUB. This government quickly went to court, declared a terrorist organization. And I think that one is not enough. Now the criminal's house was attacked. He ran away. Now this government, now this everything, who are they possible to bring him back to, and brought him back back to this country, to come and face the trial? Now if they can face this kind of money, what is stopping them from getting all these terrorists, these people that are committed to terrorism acts in this country? I'm talking about the Heisman, the Banditry and the Boko Haram. What stops you from even declaring them a terrorist organization? And the three of them are such. So you cannot see that they are politicizing everything. What's out of the Ibuho? The target is Ibuho at the World Committee of the Republic and make sure that the intercessor is there and wants to bring it back here. So the people that are committing the crimes, nobody's punishing them. And they are saying that you are fighting them, that they have repented. I think we don't know where they are. It's a good way of visiting them. You know them. Some of them has even chased some communities out of their ancestral home and take over their land. And they are living there tomorrow. You said that you don't know them. What are we talking about? So for me, they are not ready to fight terrorism. If they are ready to fight terrorism, they will fight terrorism. Everybody will see it. So I don't know the suggestion or how you want it to be done. The house, you have the DSSH with you. You have the police with you. You have the army with you. You have the civil defense with you. You have all the security. You have all the ammunition. You have everything, you have the copter. You have the intelligence cadre. So I don't know the suggestion you people want us to give. As far as I'm concerned, they are not ready to fight terrorism. If you give me presence of this country under 24 hours, I will bring everything to normal. It's very important. Because people that are committing the crime, everybody knows them. They are moving around. Even in Sokoto-Sep, I think in Sokoto-Sep, you can see that they are managing the AK-47 and come to my case to buy something. People are seeing them. What are we talking about? All right. Hold on a minute. The people that you arrested, and I learned that most of them that you arrested, those who did that, the hunters that you arrested, they arrested them. And after I arrested them, I'm going to tell you. It's all you to do. Use them as an example. Instead of giving them the money, what kind of a temporary... All right. Hold on, Mr. Akbara. Let's bring back Kibiri Adamu. Mr. Adamu, of course, I'm sure you would understand Mr. Akbara's concerns. But I want you to share your thoughts. It might be my final question to you this evening. I want you to share your thoughts on how you feel. It might be really, really difficult. How you feel the Buenos Dade governor will be able to speak with people who are currently living in IDP camps who have been there for years and tell them that there is something called Operation Safe Corridor and they would like to forgive these people who committed these crimes against them. How do you think the Buenos Dade governor will be able to do that? And do you think he might also be a little insensitive or they might see him as a little insensitive, you know, bringing that offer to persons currently living in IDP camps? And also, final question to you still. As a security expert, do you think Nigeria has been since here in its fight against insurgency? Okay, first off, I think it depends on what part of Buenos Dade the governor decides to make that speech. I'm aware that, just like I told you, the Elders, Borno Elders Forum, this stakeholder has met today and their recommendation was that this person should be profiled and put through whatever the radicalization processes the government has in place before releasing them. So he already has a platform to, you know, ride upon because these are the Elders of Buenos Dade and they have in clear terms endorsed the so-called repentance, even though they've also cautioned, just like several Elders from the Northeast, you recall the Senate president also cautioned that despite the fact that it's a welcome development, the processes have to be conducted in a manner that the surrendering does not potent for the danger for the people. Now, with regards to the moral question that you have put forward, which is the person in the IDP, I think people keep on forgetting this. The Buhari administration created a new ministry called the Ministry of Humanitarian Affairs and Disaster Management. And currently it is called the Super Ministry because it has probably the biggest portfolio of all the other ministries in the country. In the past it used to be works and housing, but now it's that ministry. It subsumes about four differences of components. What is its primary responsibility to rehabilitate displaced persons? Now, I don't want to go into the discussions on whether that ministry's meeting is objective or not. It's meant for those that are monitoring and evaluation to do that. However, as far as government policy is concerned, I think this is a good development and it is left for the state governors, for instance, to now approach the presidency, especially in this instance where the governor is of the same party like the president to ask critical questions about the functions of that particular ministry. Then let's not forget that under that ministry is not its development commission, which has specific responsibility for rehabilitation of not just those that are affected by the insurgency. So when I hear people of extreme knowledge that I expect to know, speak around this moral question, I feel a bit sad that these are discussions that I would expect to hear in the bare part of a pedestrian nature where people make such comparison that, well, you are pampering the terrorists that not the other way around. There may be gaps, I agree, with regards to the functions of the ministry, but what is more important is that when we're giving this type of impression, we should lay it down. For a government that has created such a ministry and funded the ministry, I think it's done a lot. I agree with you that, and if this brings me to the second part of your question, we need to do more to address the security challenges within the country. My consultancy keeps a database. The first quarter of this year, we're about to do the second quarter. In the first quarter of this year, 3,400 plus persons were killed in Nigeria. In one month alone, which is the month of June, 1,032 Nigerians were killed, and that is not acceptable. If we go by that figure, it means that at the end of 2021, about 12,000 people are likely to be killed in Nigeria. That is not acceptable. So we need to do more to reduce or even address these insecurity challenges. And it's not a responsibility that we can joke with. It's a responsibility that both the federal and state governments would need to come together to address the root causes of insecurity in the country. It's shocking how even some natural disasters, you don't hear of such figures. But we're looking at what, 10, 12,000 lives in one year, looking at the way things are going. And that's really why I asked the question about, yes, you might have said that we need to do more. And also, I like that you've also put out the committee disaster management and humanitarian affairs. You've also put out the investments in those IDP camps, but I don't think anybody woke up in the morning and thought, oh, I'd rather live in an IDP camp. This is still an expression of the shortfalls of government that has put people in those positions. So no matter how much money is invested, if that ministry is made to look as interesting as it is, properly funded, all of that, yes, it's necessary that the government does that. But that's still not a normal situation in any way. And so, well, I just wanted to point that out and also quickly mention the fact that there's so much, so much that we've spoken about over time. I've spoken with you multiple times with regards to efforts towards making Nigeria safer, our borders, arms proliferation, the sponsors of these terrorist groups. There's so many angles that the Nigerian government doesn't seem to have taken as seriously as it should. But it's a continued conversation and we hope that we'll continue to have these talks and hopefully we'll have a brighter picture in the next year or so. Thank you very much, Kabir Adamo. I really enjoy talking with you. Thank you for having me. Oh, it was a pleasure. All right, thanks for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we return, we're moving our conversation to Adostate, where there is a crisis with the lawmakers. There are currently just 10 lawmakers in the Adostate National Assembly when there should be 24. We'll talk about that after the short break. Stay with us.