 Welcome back. Still wine in the morning. Thank you for staying with us if you're just joining us. Well, you're still on time for the second conversation. You missed the first one. But not to worry, you can still get it on our YouTube channel at Y254. Make sure you follow us there. For now, we want to move to the entrepreneurship talk, and today we want to speak about the international education, especially being that today is the International Day for Education. So, we want to get to know about the international education, the system, how it works, why is it better if at all it's better than our education system, the CBC, the newly introduced education system that is there. And for this, we have Jean-Francis Cialo to help us with the conversation. She is a professional tutor and a communication specialist. Thank you so much. Good morning. Good morning. So, tell us what you do exactly. I know I've introduced you, but tutoring, what exactly do you do? A tutor, I teach mathematics and chemistry. I have a tuition centre in Rwanda. It's a startup tuition centre, so we're growing day by day. So, we focus on 8 for 4. We do the international curriculum. That is an excellent Cambridge. Okay, amazing. So, you do tutoring and you also mentioned to me that you teach high school. I used to teach in high school, I used to teach at a school in Nairobi, but I resigned to focus more on the tutoring because I have my own students, both locally and internationally, in UK, in US. So, you have a feel of both the education system 8 for 4 and the international system. Yes, yes. Let's just start with the international education system. How does it work? How different is it from the 8 for 4 system? Okay, there are quite a number of differences. First, looking at the content. Normally, for the international curriculum, it's widespread because from what I used to teach, I used to teach in high school. So, the content, the work that I used to teach from 1 to 4, here it's distributed from year 9 all the way to year 13. So, for my year 13 students, year 12 and year 13 are doing something that I used to teach in form 4, meaning the content that we teach here for 4 years, there it's taught for 5 years, that is from year 9 to year 13. So, it's widespread and it favors students in the sense that if you look at this curriculum, the exam tends to be favorable to all students. There's a question that, let me call it for the lack of a better term, the students will be able to answer, meaning they will not get a zero, as you would expect in our 8 for 4. Because in 8 for 4, the exam tends to be very broad, and the questions tend to be a bit hard for the students. That is where you see so many students getting ease like what we saw in the previous KCSE. Okay. Would you compare it now with our 8 for 4 setting, how we start in pre-premary school to get to class 1, just before the CBC, because at least people have an understanding of the 8 for 4 system really well, and how this other system works right from kindergarten. Well, we start, normally of course there's the primary, but normally it starts from year 1 to year 6, that is the primary, then you do the check point, the primary check point in year 6, you get to grade 7, grade 8, where it's the junior secondary, you do another check point exam in year 9, before you get to year 9, sorry, then there is now year 11 exam, that is the all-level exam, and after doing the all-level exam, you get to go to the air levels, that is year 12 and year 13. So the all-levels, what can we compare to? Is it the KCSE? It's form 3, yeah. It's our normal KCSE, but I can compare it up to form 3. Form 3? Of the Kenyan system, yes. Okay. Well, not everything in form 3, but mostly yes. What about the air levels now? The air levels now, it's from form 4 onwards. Though there are some, let me just talk a bit about what I teach, I teach math and chemistry. So if you look at mathematics, there are some units that we don't teach in 8 for 4, units that I did in campus, in university in Farsi in second year, but here I'm teaching them in year 9, in year 10, something like functions. Well, if I ask you what is functions, definitely you don't be able to tell me what functions is, but you teach them something like Venn diagrams. We don't teach them in high school, but they are taught in year 10, meaning as much as we say it is widespread, there's still content that we don't, it's not included in our 8 for 4, but it is included in the international curriculum. All right. What about the air levels now? You've said it's passed from 4 now, is it? No, it's partly from 3, last class topics, then from 4 work and then onwards. How long is the air level? Basically, a year. One year? Yeah, because the exams are normally done in May-June. There's the May-June exam, there's November-December exam. After that, then they proceed to the university now. They join the normal universities or international universities? Well, yeah, anyway. Now, how do you compare now that system now to the CBC, the newly introduced curriculum? They are quite interrelated because CBC doesn't focus on the content graph, the ability of the student to grasp what we are teaching in class, because that is what we were focusing in 8 for 4. But CBC tends to focus on the general well-being of a student and that is what the international curriculum does. If I tend to compare the two, for the international curriculum, you're able to choose subjects. You're able to choose? Yeah, between 5 to 14 subjects. There's the technical, there's mathematics, that is definitely, then there's languages, the first language, second language and the foreign language, then there's sciences, biology, chemistry, physics. If you feel like your daughter or your son is not so much good in books, there are two students who, you know, however much I will push them, there's a limit they will not pass. As a parent, you can tell that. So if you feel like your student isn't that able in studies, you're able to choose from foundation or the higher. There's a foundation tier and there's a higher tier. One by foundation is very simple. It's favorable to the student. They tend to be very simple exams. Also, as much as you're choosing from foundation and higher, there's also an option of either choosing the edexal, which is the Pearson or the Cambridge. What's the difference between the two? The difference between the two is, for me, I tend to find edexal so simple. Reason being, if you look at the year 11 paper, you have formulas. Imagine you're going into an exam and you're given the formulas. It's just for you to work it out. It's just for you to work it out and you're given marks. And a question like, right 15% is a fraction, honestly speaking, simplify two over four. And you're given a mark for that. Will you expect that in eight for four? Definitely no. I wish we had that. We're doing right now, at least. So, the difference is, one is done majorly in the UK, that is the Pearson. The other one is, of course, Oluva. That is the CIE, the Cambridge International Education. But they are all recognized worldwide. For the edexal, they say it's simpler than the Cambridge. And for the Cambridge, there's the foundation tier and there's the higher tier. So there's the core and there's the extended. The core is simpler in Cambridge. The extended is a bit hard. Okay. And if you compare them to eight for four, eight for four is so much wide and very demanding. Complex. And very complex. That is the reason why, if you find a student moving from eight for four to Cambridge, they tend to do so, so, so well. I mean, they get a plus, honestly speaking. But a student moving from the other side to eight for four, it's normally hectic. It's a mountain. So basically, they work with your strengths in the international curricula, just as it is in CBC. So now, what makes the international system, because I believe that's what you're vouching for in this instance. So what makes it better now than our CBC? Well, I wouldn't say it's better than CBC because, of course, we haven't had a test of the CBC really. Well, in high school and the like, but it's growing where we are trying to implement it as much as it's being fought by people left, right and center. But international curriculum tends to give you the global perspective, the global view. You're able to go to places. You're able to meet different people. You're able to network with who is who in the world. You're able to go to different places in the world. If you look at, for example, I will give you an example of an IS, an international school. The students went for a holiday in Europe sometimes back, I think two or three months ago. You get to visit places that, honestly speaking, if you were in our case here, you would not be getting the chance to visit. Because we have students in our schools who have never even said 14, say Mombasa or Kisumu or Masai Mara. And it's just locally here. So in the international curriculum, you're able to travel the world, you're able to meet world-class, I mean, you're able to meet people from all over the world. You're able to learn about what happens out there, not necessarily what is in Kenya or what we grow in Kenya and the history of Kenya, but you're able to learn about the Europeans. You're also able to meet different people from the world. In a class, you will have Koreans, you'll have Philippines, you'll have Italians, Israelis and the like. So you're able to interact with so many people. So it opens up your mind, again, changes your perception of the world because you're not confined in Kenya or in that village that you are brought up in and all that. So it gives you even more confidence because when you meet even me when I was a kid, when you meet such kids, you feel that they're more confident, you feel intimidated by them because they have seen the world I've experienced it. But again, there's a problem or at least I had there was a problem from my co-host, he was in an international school when he was younger and he was being discriminated against because he was darker than the rest. So there's that, you know. Yeah, these thoughts, yeah, sure. There's that. So how do you convince a parent to take their children to such a school knowing that there's all colors and there's discrimination even by children themselves? You see, as a parent, you know what your kid wants or you know what you want for your kid, yeah? And when you're choosing schools, one thing that you need to know is that you cannot protect your kid forever. That's for sure. You need to tell them that they will be facing some of these things out there, not necessarily even in school, even when you travel, when you go to look at South Africa what is happening, yeah? So that's racial discrimination that is happening all over the world. But to protect your kid from that, you need to make sure that there are schools that you take them, there are schools that tend to protect our kids from such discrimination from the other students because you cannot overlook a student because of their skin color and favor the other one because they are white, you know? So it's all a matter of how a school is run because for me in my tuition center I would not let a parent to feel like they are more superior than their other parent, you know? We're all equal, yeah? So it is you now to know how to promote some of these things, yeah? And how is it for you? Now you are an entrepreneur, that's why we have you here. So moving from the being employed you are employed in an 8 for 4 system, right? And now venturing into your own practice you have your own tuition going on and you're doing both curriculums. So how is it for you? Well, before I moved you can't venture into what you don't know and I keep saying we learn every day. So the first time I heard about it a teacher, a colleague of mine called me and asked me Jane, are you able to teach the international curriculum? I want to give you some students in South Sea. No. Yeah. So I was like, you know, I don't know anything about this but I can try. So I went, I looked at the content and I was like, you know, I really, really need to get these books and go through them because there's no way I can go and fumble in front of a student without knowing what to deliver. So I had to go sit down and look at it and do more research about it. And I learnt about the certificate of international curriculum that is offered in Rihara University. There's another one in Catholic University. For Rihara, you know, they used to pay 36,000. It's just a certificate you do for three months and you do the exam and you get the certificate. For Catholic University, I cannot quote the exact amount but it tends to give you a view of what you expect. You also need to interact with more teachers because as a teacher, as a tutor, we go to school to learn. Anyone can teach, I agree, but you cannot teach what you don't know. So as much as you've done education in the university that you did, because you're supposed to, according to TSE, you're normally supposed to pick at least two subjects, two teaching subjects. So when you pick your subjects, you get to know what you're supposed to go and deliver to your student. So for the other side, the content is the same but you need that training to get to know how to handle these kids because they are not the same. You'll go to a class and the student is like, I don't feel like studying. I'm tired today. I want to go home. What will you tell them? You cannot force them but you have to talk them through. You have to be nice to them. You have to make them see the importance of them. Sitting and studying. You get to meet kids who are like, I don't know why my parents are wasting my time paying teachers to come and teach. I'm supposed to be playing my PS5 or something. Wow. You're there as a teacher and you're wondering, oh my goodness, where do I start? So they have different characters. Yeah, they have different characters. Most of these kids, honestly speaking, they don't like studying because they know if I get out here, we have all cars. We have all types of cars. I mean, everything that you need. You want to eat anything, you just tell your dad and he will send the driver. So it's all about how we raise our kids. So as much as I'm advocating for the international curriculum, you need to learn that your daughter or your son will go and meet other kids out there. And these kids are raised differently as much as it happens in our local schools, in the 84 schools in the CVC. So you have to know you're exposing them to too much. You might take your kid there and they will tell you, I need an iPhone. Mom, can you drop me today? Mom, why do you have a small car? I mean, why don't you just talk to the father of so-and-so? They have really nice cars. They can really help you get a car at a cheaper price. Yeah, because there's not peer pressure. It's peer pressure. There's a lot of peer pressure. I mean, when you take your kid there, just know that you are opening them up to a lot of peer pressure from these kids from the rich parents. Because mostly it's not oil. It's so expensive. That is actually one thing about the IG. It's very expensive. Because if you want to get just a math book, normally it goes for 5,000 or 6,000 at the textbook center. One textbook. Wow. And you need like six or more. Tell me, how much will you spend on that? Well, that's quite something. And you know, currently parents are complaining about the prices of books. I can imagine the international students, if it's raised to up to 10,000, but they will still purchase it. Yeah. I mean, it's not a big deal to them. They have the money. Okay. And do you have students who have been sponsored to such schools and how do they cope? Honestly, we have students that have been sponsored. We have people, some of these, let me call them foreigners, they come to Kenya. They tend to get students. You might look for a student and you find maybe one, they are very bright and you want to take them to the best school. So the best school is, in our case, the International Curriculum Schools, or not CBC, sorry, either Edexcel or Cambridge. So when you take them there, of course, it means you have to provide for them everything. You cannot take them to school and expect for them to fit in without all that they need. Okay. So they need to fit in with all the luxury? They have to fit in with all the luxury that is there. Okay. I understand that they also go to school with phones and what we are not allowed to go to school with in this other side. So how does that affect the education? Because for us, we are being told you can go to school with a phone and if you are found with one, you are being expelled for it, especially in high school because one will be distracted. There are so many things to it, but in the international system, they are allowed. Why? The reason why we allow them, in most cases you realize that some of these books, they tend to be very heavy and to carry them up and down, it becomes a problem. So the books are shared in soft copy. I will give you an example of Sabiz. They use e-books. The books are online. So for you to access them, you need to have an internet connection in a smartphone or a tablet or a laptop. So some of these things, as much as we are protecting our kids from social media, from what is happening in TikTok and Instagram and all that, we still need to use the digital era that is there because this is not the time that we used to carry books, we used to use the hard copies. And that is also what happens in the universities. If you are revising for something, you can go online and start searching. Yeah, so it's actually using the university standards. Yeah, they're using the university standards and also they tend to do a lot of research. If I give you an essay to write, maybe for example, I want you to explain to me about fractional distillation of liquefied air. I don't know whether you remember anything. I know the terms. But if I tell you to explain to me what it is, you'll definitely have to go back and look. Where will you look? Like right now. You can go online and start searching it up. So yeah, we tend to encourage that to prevent carrying a lot of luggage, a lot of books, a lot of materials when you're going to school and when you're coming from school. And also we encourage them to be... The education is student-based, meaning the students do more than the teachers do. It's not like in 844. When I was in 844, I used to write notes for my students. So you just read out the notes for them to write? Yeah, I used to dictate notes to my students. When you tell them to write, they used to copy word to word. Why? Because they're being spoon-fed and it's a lot of work. And you see how our siblings and relatives and friends suffer writing notes. But for the other cases, as much as they're writing the notes, it's not as much as it is on the other side. So what are some of the things from much of scene that can be adapted to at least the CBC that we have now without increasing fees because, of course, we can't afford the same type of money that they do. But what can be adapted in our schools, in our public schools? First thing, I would really encourage... Okay, I would really encourage the spread out of the content that we deliver to students. You look at... I really feel for the students who just did their CBC. Those kids did... They could do a whole year's work in just a few months. And as a teacher, you're supposed to deliver, you're supposed to make sure they understand, you're supposed to make sure they able to answer cases in questions within that very short period. So I think the CBC needs to have a widespread mode of delivering the content and also the exam setting. Please, let's favor students who are not really blessed in education-wise. Okay. And do we have that in the international system? Not for the students that are not blessed education-wise, but we have students that are... How do we call them? There's this condition. Is it ADHD? They have low attention deficiency, something to do with that. Yes, yes. And we also have children with mild autism and some, you know, their attention is lower. But they can still be integrated in normal schools. So do we have such systems that support such students in the international system of education? Yes, we do. But normally as a parent, you see, it's just like in the normal setup what we've been experiencing around here. If you know your kid has autism, it's actually very hard for you to get a teacher because there are not as many. But I'm glad that it is being... I mean, it's now being offered. We have people doing special education. They're able to deal with autistic students. So if you know you have a kid who has a problem, you need to get for them. What most parents do they get for them tutors? A tutor who will be coming home and deal with the student step by step. Okay. Yeah. So as much as we would really, really advocate for, you know, having schools that do that, because I honestly am not sure whether we have one, but I know most people do get tutors for that. Okay. Yeah. But now, what I would really encourage parents, if you look at what is happening, I'm sorry I'm quoting this in South Sea. You will meet somebody and they will tell you, you know what, I teach math, chemistry, physics, here, regeography, everything. And when you go to the university, you're only supposed to do at least two teaching subjects. How are you able to teach six subjects? So you're only trained to do two. Exactly. So you're overburdened. You're not really overburdened looking for ways of making money. So if as a parent you're not keen, you will get a quack. Somebody who will be pretending that they know, but they don't. Somebody who will pretend that they've been teaching this system, but they've never taught. They don't know what is being tested on all the standards or what they're supposed to teach the students. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So we need to be careful. We need to be very careful. And then now, moving to the higher education, now from high school, at least in the international education system, or even from eight to four, now moving to the international education, if you want to study abroad in the international schools. So there's some tests that you need to do for the English test. There's TOEFL. Mm-hmm. And then there's the other one for getting it. Why are they important for people to do them when you're going to study abroad? For those that want to pursue their education? Basically, is to show that you're up to standard. You know. Mm-hmm. It's like, for instance, when you go to a university in Kenya, I don't want to name names. Mm-hmm. You go do your degree there and you want to go work abroad. They will tell you, you know what, I'm sorry, we don't recognize this university. We don't recognize this degree, so you have to go back to school. So the reason why they do those tests is to ensure that they are qualified. Yeah, up to standard. Yeah, they are up to standard. Mm-hmm. And if you're coming from an international school that you've studied in primary and high school, do they still need you to do the test? Normally, not really, because you can move from, let's say, a school like Bremen, or Bremen, any of the Bremen branches in Kenya, and you go to any university in the world. Because the kind of education that they offer there, if it's Cambridge, if it's a Dexel, if it's IB, you're able to fit in any world-class university out there. Because all the other students in the other countries are learning the same things. And that is why, at the start of the session, I told you I have students in UK, in US, minus the different time zones, you're supposed to deliver to them. Whatever I'm teaching my students here is what I'm teaching my students out there. In the UK, so it's the same system. It's the same. And we get so many students, we get so many phone calls from, especially UK, because most of the people in UK, when you meet a client, they will tell you, I had to move from UK to Kenya, because their education is not valued as Kenya, it's not valued education. Or the kids, you cannot punish a student there because they will report you. So when you come to Kenya, you'll be strict with them, you'll be forcing them to really study. So when they get kids and they grow to the age of being teenagers, they tend to move from UK to Kenya. So that they can get serious education. So in Kenya, actually, I can really say our education system is somewhere. Quite recommendable. Yeah, quite recommendable. Well, it's quite recommendable, but now when they're moving, they're not coming to do the Kenyan system, mostly. They're still doing their system. They're still doing their system, but now they're doing it in Kenya because us, we value education. Quite interesting. What is the role of education in international development? Well, the role of education in international development. For one, somebody would ask you, where did you go to school? To gain skills, to gain knowledge. Where will that take you? You'll get jobs, right? Where, okay, when you get a job, when you get employed by the top companies, what will that be? I mean, what advantage will that have? So we're able to move from the poverty level. It's able to help us grow to prevent or to reduce the poverty that we tend to be having in most regions in the country. Right. And in international school, do you cover, because I know they're very much exposed, topics like climate change, are they exposed to such? Well, still in school, because they're very proactive and you see them out there, you'll hear someone who came from Brabant doing some excellent things out there. So is it because they're exposed to things that are happening in the world at an early age and they're coming up with solutions so that when they grow, they're very proactive? Yeah, normally these students tend to be exposed to a lot of stuff. I was talking to a student yesterday and the kid was telling me about the SDGs. Honestly speaking, I knew about SDGs, sustainable development goals just the other day. I knew about Agenda 2063 just the other day. I didn't know about it. Unless you learn it from the students. Yeah, but them, they're learning. They learn it in school. They tend to be taught about it and come up with something that you can do or they tend to compete in maybe promoting the SDGs or the Agenda 2063 or the Porto Protocol and the like. Okay, quite amazing. So we can also have that in our school at least since it's very practical. Yeah, I would really advocate for that. I would really, really advocate for us having some of these things that are happening out here being promoted in schools, because you see, they say charity starts at home. If you're not teaching these kids about some of these things that are happening out here, when will they learn? It's our role as parents and teachers to teach our students about what is happening out there apart from education. Yeah. Okay, talk about assessments like how we assess our KCC, our examinations through the main exams KCC, KCP, how is it with the all-levels and A-levels? There's the checkpoint in year six, sorry, that is the primary checkpoint, whereby after you do, and you do well, you go to year seven, year seven, year eight, you do another exam, that is the checkpoint exam that is in year nine, and then you go to high school, this in year secondary. So junior secondary is year seven, year eight. So these exams are like the international exams that tend to measure the level of the students. It's like our KCP, you see KCP, if you do KCPE and you do well, you're able to go to high school and you cannot go to high school or to secondary school without a KCPE certificate. So that is what happens here. You need to have, you need to do some of these checkpoint exams for you to know your level. Okay, quite interesting, similar at least. Yeah, it's similar. And then now with the KCSE or on KCP, we have experienced some exam cheating. Even now people are saying that there's been some cheating, but at least the CSS said that has, you know, refuted any claims. So now with the international system, do you have cases of cheating or how has the system carved that? Well, they tend to be very strict, especially with the cheating. Yeah, the punishment tends to be immense. So you wouldn't want your daughter or your son to go through that. And as a student also, if you know the kind of punishments that will go through like being banned from doing the exam, you will not engage in any cheating case. So they tend to be very strict. For our case, I think it's because we have so many students for one that tends to do these national exams and trying to manage all of them tends to be a problem. But in their case, you see the exam, you do the exam here and it's marked elsewhere. Not like in Kenya. You see, in Kenya, we are competing. Which school will do better? Which school will perform better than the other one? I mean, it's about competition. But then it's about grading. It's about how will I perform? Will I get a B? Will I get an A? Will I get an A plus? Because for them, they have A plus as we don't have A plus. For them, they have F and G as we don't have such stuff. You know, if you're getting an E, it's an E. The lowest grade we have is an E. Or there's a Y or an X. The exam is cancelled and all that. But for them, the grading system is varied. So they tend to be... It's about how you're performing. Not about how you're competing with your friend. Not like what you're having here. But at least CBC is also now competency-based more than the performance and competition that is there. And you've talked about punishment. I thought international students don't get punishment as we used to have been beaten. But I know they're not beaten. Meeting? No. What type of punishment do they get? You can be banned from doing the exam for maybe a period of a number of years. Yeah, that is just one of them. The others, it's like when you're in class and of course you know according to the TAC you're not supposed to send a student out of the class right now. That is the rule that is there. If you're punishing a student, punish them when they're in class. So if it's kneeling, let them kneel in class. If it's, you know, of course not beating but whatever kind of punishment you're giving let them not miss the content that you're teaching. So that is what is there, what is being encouraged and that is what happens in all the other schools. Right. And for someone they might be wondering for the international schools they charge a lot. So is it more of a business venture or is it knowledge-based? Even for you now that you have your own teaching as an entrepreneur, how is it? It's actually it has good money. That is the honesty of the matter. It depends with how much you charge. If I tell you I will charge you 4000 per lesson you'll be like, okay, that's it. I know what I'm offering. So the amount that I'm charging is because I know my value. I know what I'm giving out. So I cannot really say it's business-based per se but the education is really, really good and it favors the student and as a parent it is not up to you to choose. If you know you can afford it, you can go for it. Okay. So you highly recommend that? Well, yeah. All right. What are your final words as we come to a conclusion this and also maybe you can give your handles if someone wants your services. That is your camera. So the best thing that you can do to yourself as a student is to invest in academics and for the parents get to know the kind of education that you're giving your kid and get to know what your kid needs. Please, as parents let's not make choices for our kids as much as we are trying to tell them what is out there or the expectation that is out there. Let's also give them the chance to choose what they want for their lives. Yes. So my handles are on Twitter as Jean underscore F. Kialo and Instagram and Facebook as Zisa Kialo and ZISAA Kialo. Kialo is K-Y-A-L-O. Thank you. Wow, amazing. Thank you very much, Kialo for giving us such amazing insights on the international education system. Thank you. So that has been Jean Francis Zisa Kialo who is a professional tutor of maths and chemistry and our communication specialist talking to us about international education and now we are going to take a short break and then Bransakwa will be back with that yet interesting, very interesting conversation still on maths entrepreneurship. Don't touch that style.