 Welcome back here. So watching the breakfast on the plus TV Africa and to a first major discussion The independent National Lecture Commission will not release the electoral timetable for the 2023 general elections Until the electoral act amendment bill is signed into law. This is revealed by the chairman of INEC Professor Mamoudi Akub at the Commission's first quarterly consultative meeting with political parties and What are the implications of this for the polity in Nigeria? We have joining us to look at this former speaker of the Cross River State House of Assembly Mr. John Carl Lebel and of course also joining us Vaazoum is the commissioner National Commissioner for information and voter education at the independent national electoral commission and Mr. Fessels Coe, gentlemen, welcome to the breakfast on the plus TV Africa Yeah, good morning. Thank you. Thank you very much Good morning Let us start with you. Mr. Fessels Coe. What is it thinking behind this decision as announced by the national chairman of INEC? Well, if you recall the chairman appeared before the Senate Committee Saddle with the responsibility of overseeing issues Around the electoral process and the Commission when they were considering and add to Bring about an Electoral Offences Commission Now at that particular meeting the chairman made it very clear that one that the Commission is Desirous of releasing the timetable for the conduct of the 2023 general elections after the Anambra governorship election But the chairman also made it very clear that it is imperative that it is fundamental and that it is also important to Have some level of certainty and some level of clarity in relation to the constitutive little legal framework that we guide the conduct of elections before we release the timetable as get love activities I hear all the national assembly and all the parties concerned you know to Get to work in relation to the Alterations to the Constitution and the amendment to the electoral act and so that we can release the timetable on time Now as you know the independent National Electoral Commission cannot close his eyes To what is going on in the National Assembly and also within the Presidents The Commission was part of all the processes and procedures that led to the Amendment of the electoral framework and before it was sent to the president for purposes of assent and the president declined Assent on the basis of a particular clause in the electoral in the In in in the bill and so what the chairman is saying is that we need to wait a little bit before we release the timetable and Schedule of activities because of what I call the differential timelines in the in the In the old electoral in the existing electoral act and then and then you act And the new bill that may be signing to act if we release the electorate If we release the timetable and schedule of activities now There will be a problem and as we go on in the discussion and we point out the timelines that are problematic and the timelines That must be taken into consideration before we release the the timetable and scale of activities and Unless unless the party is concerned unless the National Assembly and the presidency resolve the issues involved in the new Electro-Electro bill speedily it may affect the timelines provided in the new electoral act sort to be In the in the bill sort to be converted into an act Okay But I'd like us to get some clarity because at that time before the governorship election just before we you know We are bringing John Gall level The chairman had also mentioned that according to the principle that established the commission that they would the elections would happen February 18 2023 and so what does this mean? Is the election still going to happen whether or not the bill is signed at that particular date or will we have a letter date? Well, you know if you look at section 178 of the Constitution of the federal public of Nigeria It has been you hold a timeline within which the Commission must conduct the 2020 regional elections and the timelines provided in section 178 of the electoral act and the and the Other sections of the army of the Constitution Our cast is told those timelines are in the the Commission can only operate Within the within the second phase of those timelines. We have given the nation A particular date that we are going to conduct at the presidential election on the 18th day of February 2023 so what we are doing as an electoral management body is that in terms of The timelines in terms of the activities and so on we are counting back from the 18th day of February 2023 back backwards and if you let me just give you a practical example of the type of challenge we have The existing section 30 of the electoral act 2010 as amended obligates the Commission mandates the Commission To give notice of the conduct of elections 90 days before the conduct of that election That's what the existing electoral acts is but in if you look at clause 28 sub one of The bill sought to be amended that particular deal If it is signed into law it provides that the committee that the Commission must give the notice of elections 360 days before the dates for the conduct of the election So the implication is that if you count from 28th day of From 18th of February 2023 backwards You can see that time is really really running out in relation to our giving that particular statutory notice provided in this new electoral framework that Bill that has not been signed and if it is not signed In relation to the period that we have a mark for the conduct of the elections the implication is That the National Assembly must go back again If they want us to use the new electoral legal framework to amend this particular clause to bring it into conformity with the timelines provided in the Constitution and provided in the Other other instruments that the Commission will use for the conduct of the election All right, so let's also bring in John goal level before I allow my colleague coffee to also ask his question John goal at this point in time the former INEC chairperson is saying that the National Assembly should not override the president and Senators agitating of course. They are gathering signatures so far. They say they have 73 signatures and INEC is also saying without the Electro, you know act been signed. There will be no time to be released for the elections Do you think that there's hope for this bill to be considered? Rewalked and sent back to mr. President and that having the ascent of the president Yes, I think I think so The amendment being proposed and the law in question is quite a critical law the electoral act and the Constitution forms the Destroying of the legacy more for conduct of elections Of the president is such a critical bill that required Executive implementation require budget to provision for that effect is such a critical deal So I think what will happen is that I don't think the National Assembly will override the president. I think what I have seen happening is that based on session 58 of the Constitution 58 so fair to It does not allow the president to pick and choose the provision of the law that he can sign and not site But the National Assembly can on that section 58 so far, you know I mean that provision in line with the president's letter and returning back to the president for accent Which is what I think will happen now or what I say happening I don't think they will override the president ascent because the reason the president has given is very fundamental and critical Number one is that before now political party, you know We are allowed the freedom of democracy to conduct their primaries and they have three options They have consensus they have direct and they have indirect It's in the it's all in your Constitutional department the electoral are the ultra electric electric section 87 now Why do you now want to impose just one more there of conducting primaries on a political party? You know the Supreme Court has put us on this matter You know the case of Imam against which is the Supreme Court is very clear that based on the provision of that law There was the right of the political party to conduct the internal matter to provide The accounting it so I think the best thing that will happen Okay, so we seem to Mr. Jungle label are you there can you hear us please? Okay, we lost it for a bit. So if we just take your point for the last sentence again Okay, so the point the point I'm making is that you cannot the option available to the national assembly today We'll be to apply the provisional section 58 so for the Constitution which allow them, you know to amend the The deals and then in line with the letter of the president Send it back to the president for a thing is it critical that I have the president ascent in this game? Okay, mr. Lebo you will have experience as a Legislate later. You also have experience as a politician and if you look at the legal profession, you're also there and What? implications you think this has for the forthcoming election some of the the papers have have said, you know The election is hanging in the balance This this on said you think this truce the elections into a sort of an uncertain state Or you think that there is no cause for alarm and no cause for serious concern Mr. Django lebo Yeah, I think that He doesn't do the election into any balance. Mr. Fessok acquires of their claim the period of time Noted to try to be given within the election has been expanded under the new law I net already indicated that the election will hold in February What is required is that I net needs to provide the guidelines to the election and the man who is done important to Responsibility of what I net but they cannot bring out the manual or the guidelines the election unless the electoral act is past For me, you must come and I net they've done the Really the foundation and the foundation is that you know election will vote in February, you know And then you what is fully required is that under the circumstances man the guideline Has to come out and the man that the election has to come up So once this bill is passed, which I hope to be passed will happen today and forward it to the president Is that said to come in this week all of that to come back? I nick is as lady foundation for all of this to happen I hope that the national family will not drag us beyond this week or next week if that is done They were able to meet up with the time the provisions under the law is not expanded for a longer period of time But I like doesn't have that time But I hope I believe that with what is happening on dramatic will be able to catch up to that period of time secondly the issue of Direct transmission is quite important in the election is like a revolution that's going to happen And it's going to make a lot of things easier to look at the unambred elections and even including Case management that will come up with a little bit better. So I feel that these Provisions of the law is quite fundamental critical to all All right, first is the courier. Let's also talk about the innovations or reforms that their You know INEC has actually come up with for the 2023 elections I also remember that the chairman made some statement that ahead of these elections There will be some innovation not in the unambred governorship elections. We're also Withness the use of the bevask. Can you kindly tell us about the innovations and reforms? Well, I this commission I Has done a long way in trying to Reform our electoral process at least within that administrative competence of the commission One of the things we have thought is to as much as possible Reduce human interference in the electoral process so for political party nominations in terms of the submission of the least and personal particulars of the Nominated candidates we no longer allow political parties to submit the names of the least and personal particulars of the nominated candidates Man one. So what we do is that we have created what we call a party nomination portal through which political parties upload the least and personal particulars of the nominated candidates to our central portal The same thing applies to domestic election observers and international election observers as well as the media We have also created a portal through which they apply for accreditation and we accredited them Electronically for pulling agents or what's in popular balance? We normally call a political party agents. We have also created a portal through which political parties forward the names Signatures and photographs of the of their pooling agents. So we have eliminated them one way of doing things Now more importantly and more fundamentally what we have done is that we have more or less retired The smart card reader because as you know, the smart card reader only captures the fingerprints of Voters and does not capture their patience. So what we have done is that we have introduced the beavers and in the beavers the Names of all the registered voters in a particular pooling unit Inputed into the beaver beavers and configure to a specific Pulling unit. So when a voter goes to the Two groups what we normally do is in terms of accreditation we first of all use the beavers to See whether we can read the fingerprints of the of the of the beavers If the beavers with the fingerprints the voter will be allowed to go and vote if it doesn't read the fingerprint of the Of the of the will be voter then the beavers will be used to read the facial if it doesn't read the facial of the of the Registrar then the beavers has the capacity to also read the a QR code In the voters register and the the back of the of the of the permanent voters card if all these things are done and the voters Particular some biometrics cannot be found in the in the in the register The implication is that the person is is engaged in identity theft or the person is not the person who he or she Claims to be and the person will not be allowed to vote That's something we have done and then we will continue to do is to upload pooling unit results into our INEC We are going to do all these things whether we have a new electoral framework or we don't have a new electoral framework But I think it is important and it's imperative and it's also very fundamental for us to have a new electoral legal framework because the issue of Whether we use the voters register the register voters for purposes of determining about voting or we use the accredited voters Has been taken care of in the new bill as thought to start to be attended and also the issue of electronic transmission of results I'm also using either The the forms feed manually or the electronically transmitted results and for purposes of making a determination Or who has won the election and who has not won have been taken care of in the new deal And so all these things will be we come to play but whether the bill is signed or not This particular commission will not wait indefinitely For the signing of this bill after some time we if the bill is not signed We may be forced to release the timetable and schedule of activities for the 22th major elections Based on the existing electoral legal framework because that is what we are using as a present That is what we are using for the purposes of the equity governorship election and on the governorship elections And some of the six by elections that we've scheduled for the 26th day of February 2022. Okay, I'll stay with you Mr. Festus Koye in previous times and you've talked about the the existing legal framework and the importance of having this sorted out Before the electoral timetable is released in the previous elections if I'm not mistaken in the 20 to 15 or 2019 elections one of two changes where We're brought about as far as elections in Nigeria are concerned but we're not implemented or passed because of the closeness of the time of the passage of the bill and to the elections We look at things like electronic voting and all that Are we are we confident that? These changes can be comfortably and successfully implemented with an election that is barely 900 just of an hundred and days ahead or sorry 390 days 96 days from now. We're confident that these changes can be Successfully implemented by INEC. That's number one. Number two Are there any other reasons because you talked about the legal legal framework for which INEC cannot Release electoral timetable before the passage of the electoral act amendment bill Now let me be very very clear on this There are at least eight clauses Eight clauses in the new bill that are very critical and fundamental and these are timelines that are slightly mandated One if you look at a clause 3-3 in the new bill It says that it makes it mandatory for the funds due to the independent national electoral commission to be released to the commission At least a year before the election This thing can be done administratively whether the the bill is passed or not the president can and the authorities can Release the funds due to the commission whether the bill is passed or not I've talked about the second one relating to the notice of election We say that the commission shall give notice of elections at least 360 days before the day fixed for the conduct of election. That's the second one now the third one It's also very very fundamental prior to this particular Before this particular bill and in the existing legal framework Political parties are obligated to submit the lease and personal particulars of their nominated candidates 60 days to the conduct of election, but in the new electoral bill The time frame has been changed to 180 days Not only that in terms of political associations wanting to transmit to political parties Prior to this particular period the period for the submission of the applications was six months But in the new bill it has been extended to 12 is been made 12 months So these are some of the timelines that are very very germane and if we release the electoral time table now and the and the Bill comes it becomes law and the period for the given of this particular notice has elapsed It will not create a very big long job for the independent national electoral commission But as I as I've pointed out we cannot wait at infinity For this particular be to be signed into law time is really running out in relation to some of the timelines Imputed in the bill, but we are going to proceed With our preparations. There are some gadgets and some Equipment that need to be purchased before Designing into law. I mean at least a year before the general elections We are going ahead with some of these things We have made our submissions to the National Assembly in terms of the first we need to be appropriated For the conduct of the 2023 general elections and we have been treated as some of these things into the into the law in terms of the electronic transmission of results What we have said is that what the commission needs is for some of the impediments to the electronic Collation of results to be removed from the electoral legal framework so that we can collect Electronically we can transmit results electronically now, but if you look at the law critically and if you just remove in a reading In very very clear terms it will be difficult for you to do electronic collection of results Announcement of results without the electoral act being amended to accommodate that but in terms of transmission of election results The constitution and the other constitutive legal instruments gives us the power to transmit election results And also come to conduct elections and we don't need any further legislation in relation to this So administratively we are doing a lot and there are certain things We don't need a lot to be amended before we continue including the use of the be vast We'd like to get clarification on that of course. This is Nigeria and then you know the cases where the legality of these technology might be questioned and so are you saying that the Internally that the legal framework for your Institution can actually make for or cover up for the use of the beavers without the law be inside Definitely if if for instance if you look at the section 49 of the existing of the existing act It provides that a person intending to vote with his voter card shall present himself To the presiding officer at the pulley unit in the constituency in which he's registered with his voter card Then it goes for that to provide that the presiding officer shall on being satisfied Shall on being satisfied that the name of the person is on the register of voters Issue him a ballot paper and indicate on the register that the person has voted now the beavers Is an equipment that is used to authenticate whether you are the person you propose to be so the Supreme Court Validated the use of the smart card reader In in in the election for the purposes of making a determination on whether the person that has come to the pulley unit Is that person that hasn't registered what the issue is the controversy was around whether The data from the big beavers can be used to make a determination in relation to Overvoting in an election and the and the Supreme Court said no that if you want to determine overvoting in any election You have to go to the voters register and all the other forms used in the election So the issue of whether the presiding officer can use the beavers or the smart card reader to make a determination on whether the person Who has come to vote is the owner of the permanent voters card was never an issue and the Supreme Court Validated that so we don't have an issue with the beavers Okay, so let's bring in John goal now and some people are saying that with the indirect indirect primaries clause in that Electoral act is just the tactics to stall the entire system and then we might probably just fall back to the 2010 electoral act or 2011 Do you see a possibility of we having this as a bill and of course having INEC have enough time to prepare for the elections? Well, I think I think like Korea has already the existing electorate It's been very clear about the mode of conducting primary which provides for consensus Direct and indirect primaries even if the electoral act is not amended political parties Both of the APC and the PPT have used direct and indirect primaries So it is not a problem if you amend the and the president having refused to explain to that deal has refused to Legalize the use of direct primaries as the only mode of conducting primary Now what is happening now is that I my opinion from what I've seen from the National Assembly and my understanding of the legislature They will not override the president. We are going to have Sections if you say me the old section is seven of the bill restored of the act Yes, of the bill restored back into law so the political parties will have all of that option My worry and concern has been with the use of the work shall we respect to the monitoring of a party primary By any which was not the provision in the law before, you know, it was an observatory responsibility The new law if it was signed would have made it compulsory for I make down the question is that Direct a primary is like conducting a general election 8,000 8200 and something cancel word around the country. I make I don't I don't want to feel that I make But they will not have the funding required By virtue of their budget to carry out that process and the period of time provided for a special That's where I was seeing the calendar was going to come up So I believe that the what the national assembly should do under section 58 So far of the constitution is to amend that Deal in line with the observation raised by the president and sending back to Mr President for us and that will restore to all the status quo of what used to be in the old law My opinion as a lawyer has always been that and as a lawyer has always been that Trying to impose one mode of conducting primaries on all political parties, not democracy and draconian No, so the reason why a lot of persons are very big on the electoral act or the law being passed and Looking forward to 2023 is because of the transmission of results Electronically and so that's where you know the whole of this contention lie Of course, you also have the clause that seem to be stalling the process And a lot of people are saying that we might not in 2023 Transmit, you know result electronically with the back and forth I mean if it has to go through the the national assembly getting back to the president We're talking about time now. So I'd like to add to your lawyer. You understand the workings I mean a lawmaker from a lawmaker and of course a legal practitioner You understand the workings of the system So do you see a possibility that you know this becomes a reality and then we transmit results electronically in 2023? Yes, that's what will happen and I've gone through the deal We didn't do there some provisions of the deal that you know Looked contradictory to me with respect to the coalition transmission not a problem, but particularly with the issue of electronic coalition of results and all of that But I believe that the national assembly will take on that position because a lot of issues has been raised with regard to that But for on the part of INEC, you know to be able to carry out a successful Implementation of an electoral process You need to put together your institutional framework. You need to put together your legal framework This institutional framework has has done a lot. They have institutional memory and they have conducted several elections They have capacity within INEC to conduct that election The procedure having ad hoc staff from INEC to conduct that election has been done and has been successful The main challenge has been the legal framework because the legal framework is a vehicle that is required. You don't have You you you will not understand or appreciate what Mr. Okori is saying Unless you you look at the guideline that INEC produced before the election that Emmanuel that guideline is very critical It gives you A clear directional word So I believe that the electronic transmission of results which is going to be a revolution or electoral system will happen I believe that the national assembly will carry out the amendment in that bill and send it back to the president I believe that the national assembly will not override the attempt to the president And with that with the provision of the electoral act and with the attempt by the president The legal framework will be effective and then it will be direct constitutional results Okay, Mr. Django label you talked about the provisions of the constitution and regarding the president and his powers As far as the passage of or control of national assemblies can send a relationship, I should say With the national assembly having to Look at this bill again and do what the president wants And are we not yet again seeing that National federal legislature is is robber stamp Well, it's not it's not it's not an issue of robber stamp, you know The constitution is very clear And we respect to the provision of Of the procedure provided for The passage of a bill if you look at section 58 of the constitution Section 58 so far Does not give the president the discretion to pick and choose the provision of the bill which he can Ascend and not ascend, particularly because of the manner the The model of drafting that was adopted in this bill There's a model of drafting that will adopt that will separate the various provisions and make it easy For the president and if that bill is evaluated with the several bills the president can time bill one And also bill to hear everything was clubbed up together the president Not the power now the lies with the national assembly That I have that power on that section 58 sub two of the of the constitution that section gives them the power You know to be able to do two things number one The the veto they ascend to the president pass it again the way it is and it becomes law number two is Read the letter of the president and make the bill ascended back. That is the procedure Usually What happens that there's a lot of lobbying that goes on in the legislature? Remember that you have the ruling party apc. They have their corpus. They have the leader You have the opposition party pdp. They have their minority leader their minority corpus There's a lobby that will go on remember that the governor also had intervention through the governor's forum And most of the national assembly members also listen to the governor Then you also know that the president is an apc president. They also have apc corpus at the apc governor's forum It is not a robust issue. Is the legislature at work is the issue of lobbying in democracy that happened So at the end of the day Once the structure of the legislature the administrative structure of the leadership and that of the presidency which is linked up to the presidential advisor happened Things like this will happen. You can't You you mean you may not be able to draw the numbers over right the president the president's letter to visit Because of the issue of lobbying The letter by the president itself on his own gave it their direction As the president was sincere understood the provisions of the electoral application to the election play It's that issue and then in summary, we know that the main concern in this Amendment process was not even the issue of director might go the issue of the divas and the electronic transmission result the national assembly added this position So is there a responsibility to either pull it through or withdraw from it? Okay, so um, um, just as we you know coast down the conversation We bring in first as a courier The issue of voter party also starts with the commission. I mean talking about iNEC Usually because of the process of getting Getting registered the process of getting your pvc and what have you what is the commission doing to actually improve on the process of registration And also issuing of the pvcs And what what are the number of registered voters as we are speaking in the entire country? Well, you see this particular commission engaged in what I call a revolution a revolution in the sense that For 25 years No commission succeeded in increasing the number of pulley units we had in this country So this particular commission broke that 25 year old jam. Yeah, love jam by um increasing access of the Nigerian people To additional pulley units. So as of today, we have over 176,000 pulley pulley pulley units And some of these pulley units have been taken closer to the people closer to their homes So that persons with disability can easily assess the pulley units The elderly can easily assess the pulley units Lactative models can easily assess the pulley units and so on. So that's one revolution we have carried out and we believe that With this particular assess The people we have Closer affinity to the various pulley units Secondly for the purposes of the registration of voters We have introduced what we call an online Pre-registration process through which young Nigerians especially and those who have access to the To their computers who have access to smartphones and so on can do their pre-registration Before going to our offices to go and capture the for the purposes of capturing their biometrics now we Have been carrying out this registration in our state offices and our local government offices on security grounds But I believe that with the consultations we are doing with all the different stakeholders We may devolve the registration process to Over 2000 Registration centers to make it easier for people to register. So we believe that so many of our people we are going to Register, but you know the issue of a voter party has its own variables and There are all sorts of explanations on why there's voter party sometimes on election day You see people playing football sometimes on election day People may have the perception that their votes will not count But I believe that with the measures we have put in place and with all the revolutionary changes We have introduced our people are beginning to have Confidence that their votes will count and they are beginning to re-engage more seriously with the electoral process So we are confident that despite the fact that we entered into the 2019 general election with the total register voter population Of 84 million that with the new measures we have put in place There's a possibility that we may register at least over 15 million additional voters before we close the registration process All right, very quick on Mr. Koei. When does the C continuous voter registration resume? Has it already Resumed just very quickly, please No, it's it's it's it's it's ongoing What we are trying to do is to devolve more to the local areas so that More people it will be closer to the people and more people will register. So it's ongoing and it will last for At least the next six months. All right. Thank you very much. First of all Koei a national In commissioner for vote education independent national electoral commission and I can of course Former speaker of the cross-strait state House of assembly jungle label. Thank you very much for joining us and for offering your expert analysis on this particular topic Thank you for having us. Thank you gentlemen for coming Well, it has been an interesting conversation. I've been talking about the electoral empire I know and their decision not to release the timetable and also What it means for the country fingers across would definitely see how all of this event unfold We will be taking a short break right now when we return We'll just be looking at the second conversation Where you know the pyramid rise pyramid has been unveiled and what does this mean for the economy?