 If we can call through this meeting to order, we welcome everyone to this, the eighth meeting of the Public Petitions Committee in 2019. We have apologies from Rachel Hamilton MSP. We have two items on the agenda this morning, consideration of one new petition and one continuing petition. The first petition is the petition 1717, lodged by Mary Anne Pugsley, which calls for a public inquiry into the abuse of children in Scottish state schools and a review of the law of corroboration. Members have a copy of the petition, along ac y petitioner CVS o amlwg maen nhw fydd yn ei ddefnyddio cyrado ni'n mynd. We will take evidence from the petitioner this morning. I would like to thank you for attending this morning Mariaane sorry and you now have an opportunity to make an opening statement of up to about five minutes, after which we will move to questions from committee members. Thank you, for inviting me here today to present evidence to support my petition. today to present evidence to support my petition. Hopefully, by giving you a brief account of my personal experiences, you will understand the driving force behind this petition and my inability and refusal to remain silent. This silence would make me as complicit as those who's in action and wrongdoings have brought me to this point in my life. I was sexually and emotionally abused by a teacher in a state school in Scotland between the ages of 12 to 15 years in the late 70s. It wasn't until the 90s and I was in my mid-20s that I realised that this was child abuse. I then reported this to the local authority and an in-house investigation was launched, which was not reported to the police. The accused was suspended for a few months and then moved to another local authority where he continued to teach until approximately six to seven years ago. When I tried to establish what the outcome of that investigation was and if there would be a prosecution, I was told that there was not enough evidence for the procurator for school. For years, this plagued me. I couldn't understand why the accused had been allowed to continue teaching. So, eventually, in 2016, I again summoned up the courage to revisit the abuse in an effort to make sense of what had happened to me. The first step that I took was to phone the in-care inquiry and I was told that I did not meet the necessary criteria. I then phoned a charity and explained my doubts about the initial investigation. The sign posted me to the police, which led to an investigation being launched. At each and every point of these investigations, I was repeatedly reliving the sexual and emotional abuse that I had suffered in order that CID could have, as far as possible, an accurate account of past events. One of the findings confirmed that the police had no previous record of it being reported to them in the 90s. There were no written records held by the local council or the reason why the accused was relocated. During the early stages of the 2016 investigation, I was offered a temporary post as a classroom assistant in the school where I was abused. I also received an anonymous handwritten intimidating card posted to me at the school's address. Part of it said, Stop this now please and don't live in the past. God is the final judge in all of this and he will deal out vengeance and justice to all for any wrongdoings done. It was signed by a concerned friend. The investigation concluded after some months and the accused was interviewed. The result was a no-comment interview with no further action being taken. The term used to cover my child abuse is known as an inappropriate relationship and due to insufficient corroboration, my case would not be heard in a criminal court. As a result, I then wrote to the local council asking for an explanation as to why there were no records held relating to my case. The reply from the then director of education said, I am very sorry that we are unable to find any historical records relating to the allegations and how the alleged perpetrator came to be moved from the school to another part of Strathclyde region. I would be happy to meet with you and explain what steps we took to try and identify information that would help support making a case in the present for the abuse that you experienced while a pupil at that school. The reply gave me the confidence to approach a law firm, naively believing that I was on the road to justice. After preparing meticulous notes to hand to the lawyer and reliving again the trauma of my child sexual abuse, they took on the case. Within a very short space of time, I was made an award by the criminal injuries compensation authority, which I did not accept. This award was based on the information provided by the police, which confirmed that I was subject to sexual abuse over a period of time. I was placed in category B11, sexual offence where victim is a child, non-consensual penile penetration, repeated incidents of up to three years. And yet, the Scottish law of corroboration prohibits my case from being heard in a criminal court to have a fair trial. Please bear in mind that the very nature of being the victim of child abuse involves isolation and fear over telling anything to others, invariably ruling out a witness. It is also further diminished by the exclusion from the current care inquiry into historic child abuse. Adding into that an acknowledgement of the abuse generally does not occur until many years later the likelihood of forensic evidence is greatly diminished as well as many other factors. Inappropriate relationships may be recognised by the police. There may be awards made by the criminal injuries compensation authority, but who is collating all of this evidence in trying to make sense of it? Evidence that is not being recorded, let alone collated, is prohibiting justice and redress for victims and perpetrators. Nor is this evidence being used to inform the relevant bodies who have the responsibility of safeguarding our children in Scottish state schools. John Swinney, in his comments on 21 June 2018, as cited in the Holyrood magazine said, we are determined to ensure lessons are learned to protect children in future and provide survivors with the support they deserve. He also said, by raising awareness of historic abuse, they are helping to uncover the nature and extent of the issues and the failings which allowed it to happen. Yet again, a reminder of the exclusion and lack of support, this hurts very deeply. After my feelings of dejection lessoned against once more, I questioned my case. I looked at the vetting procedures that were in place prior to those we currently work with, i.e., enhanced disclosure and the timeframe of when this started, which I believe was in 2002. Before this, it was the local authority's responsibility for the vetting of employees within schools. Add in to this the reorganising of the regional councils in 1996, disbanding into local councils, and the questions over accurate records being kept or not. As was apparent in my own case, raised my concerns. Therefore, in the light of this timeframe involved and the example of the accused, in my case, still teaching until recently, it became apparent that predators could still be within our state schools, having slipped through the current safeguarding procedures. If, as was the case for me, an inappropriate relationship was swept under the carpet with no records being kept, the police not being informed, then I put it to you that the responsibility would lie with the offender to disclose any wrongdoings on their disclosure forms. How then do we close these gaps in the system? The law restricts cases from being heard in a criminal court due to lack of corroboration. The remit of the current inquiry does not allow for victims of historical child abuse in state schools to have their evidence heard and collated, and there appears to be gaps in the vetting procedures for those who currently work in state schools. For those who are retired and out of the state school system, they potentially could still be tutoring or working with vulnerable children. As an adult, I have worked in schools and I consider it my civic duty to raise this petition. I have reached out to so many in trying to seek justice, asking for help with this petition, and I have received very little support. I tried to find a victims commissioner in Scotland, but to no avail, and ended up writing to the victims commissioner of England and Wales by Ernest Newlove. I cannot turn my back on the feelings that, to me, seem blatantly obvious and have the potential to affect vulnerable children, not only due to the gaps that have been in our safeguarding procedures, but because those that have been victims of child abuse need to have their voices heard. To be told that you do not meet the criteria of the current inquiry, nor are you eligible to apply for the support that is offered alongside it is very damaging. This exclusion is only going to compound the pain that will be carried over to the next generation, manifesting itself in so many detrimental ways in the home and across society at large. When your sign posted to the remit of the inquiry and read that there is not enough time for you to be heard, it is painful. That pain ripples down generation after generation when not addressed. I believe that I have managed to survive, but I have not lived a life reaching my full potential. The impact of this has infiltrated every single aspect of my life, education, relationships, family and health to name a few, and continues to this day. There have been occasions when I have been in very close proximity to the accused, and others when I have had to walk past them in a supermarket. I cannot put in towards how this feels. I do not want anyone to experience or suffer in the way that I have. This is why I am asking the Petitions Committee to consider the breadth of this independent inquiry and why the law of corroboration urgently needs to be reviewed. The voices of other victims must be heard in order that we can truthfully say that we are getting it right for every child. The Human Rights Framework for Justice and Remedies for Historic Child Abuse, written by the Scottish Human Rights Commission, was focused on children in care. However, this framework is relevant for survivors of historic child abuse in a wider context. Next month, I will have to travel to England, as I have been invited to give evidence to the Truth Project, which runs alongside the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse for England and Wales. Part of my abuse occurred in England, so I will make this journey across the border to give evidence to them. Again, I will repeat and revisit sexual and emotional abuse that I suffered as a child. Maybe that will be the last time I will have to tell my story, just maybe. But for now, I cannot turn a blind eye to the gaps that I believe are not being addressed, the victims whose voices are not being heard, and the children's rights that are not being met. Thank you very much for that. Can I ask a couple of short questions before I ask my colleagues to come in? You asked for a public inquiry within Scottish state schools. That is all schools, not just necessarily those that perhaps are boarding facilities. That is all state schools. All state schools? All state schools. Are you wanting a separate inquiry or for the remit of the current inquiry to be extended? I believe that the time frame within the remit of this inquiry is limited. When I did inquire, I was told that there was not enough time. So whether it is a separate inquiry or pulled into that, I do not know what the answer would be. I just know that it is something that I feel very strongly that has to be addressed. Do you think that there is a significant issue, I think, for survivors that the inquiry is... I think that the people who campaigned, who had been in care and campaigned for the inquiry, was a very specific issue, and that the vast majority of abuse does not happen in the care setting that has happened in the family of friends or within the community or whatever. Would you see your argument for what has happened in a state school, perhaps be part of an inquiry into abuse within the community, or would you want it to specifically be around whether that adult child's responsibility in the school setting? I think that if it was specifically around that, it would address a lot of failures and abuses that have occurred. I also believe that the whole inquiry concept into historical childhood abuse is to exclude anyone from any organisation and to say, well, it's not your turn just now, it's your turn. To do that is a very damaging signal to send out, to have to almost wait in line to be called forward. I think that there should be no exclusions. I am coming in from the point of view with my experiences for state schools to be addressed, but overall, as the Scottish Human Rights Commission says, in the wider context, this applies across the board. Okay, thank you. Angus MacDonald. Thanks, convener. Good morning, Mary Ann. You mentioned comments by the Deputy First Minister in Hollywood magazine, however, you'll be aware that in November 2016, the Cabinet Secretary for Education referred to duty of care, but acknowledged that terrible crimes were committed, in his words, in non-incare settings. He suggested that adding non-incare settings to the remit of the current Scottish child abuse inquiry would take many more years to conclude, again, in his words. I'd be keen to hear what your thoughts are on that. In saying that it would take many more years to conclude, I would agree that it will take time for all of this to be collated and pulled together. If indeed we get to everyone being included into the A, whatever way the inquiry goes, it gets to be included. When it comes to children and when it comes to our schools, I think that it has to be prioritised because we're talking about our next generation. I don't think that it's something that, as a nation, we can ignore. Our children are our future. The people who potentially have been abused, who are victims, who are lying there silently or sitting there silently and their faces are being turned away, these are the carers and the parents of our children, and everyone across the board seems to be coming aware of adverse childhood experiences, intergenerational trauma and all the key words that are coming out. This, as I've pointed out in my opening statement, is rippling down. For our children within our state schools, which is the largest, as far as I'm concerned, institution that we have, I feel that there has to be a priority given to that. It is going to take time. Many things take time. I've done two years' worth of solid work and we're trying to pull all this together. If we're determined enough, I think that we can do it. OK, thank you. Thank you. Good morning, Mary Ann. Good morning, Brian. I'm sure that Mary Ann is my constituent and brought this case to me some time ago and after quite a lot of deliberation. We decided the best way forward to have this case properly aired would be to bring it to the petition's committee. I know the amount of work that Mary Ann has done over the period of time. I'm pulled together, as she says, an incredible amount of information that hasn't been easy for us, so I just like to say that we're well done for getting yourself to this stage. Thank you. Can I ask you that you've stated that not including children who attended non-boarding state schools in the current inquiry is unfair and prolongs the victimisation rather than enabling those without a voice to come forward to begin that arduous journey of a survivor? I'm wondering in your own words if you would maybe expand on that. When I got the letter from the then director of education using the words for the abuse that you suffered in the past, that was the first time I had ever had anyone actually put it in writing and it was like, yes, I'm getting there. Getting an authority figure to say what happened to you was wrong is so crucial on your road to recovery because you can then actually within yourself say, I'm not over exaggerating this. It was wrong. I didn't start counselling, which I'm still undergoing, until last year. Had I started that in my mid-20s when I first realised I'd been abused, I'd be a completely different person now. If you're not listening to you stay feeling the victim, I believe very strongly that as a society we have to enable those victims to come forward and make that transition into a survivor. The only way, as I can see it, you can do it as if we give them a voice, a voice that can be heard. We have to stop and listen to them and make them feel validated and worthy, not excluding anyone across the board. You're in an unwanted rather unique situation in that the abuse that you allege happened both in England and in Scotland and you've alluded to the fact that there's a different approach in England than there is in Scotland. You could expand on that. I approached the in-care inquiry in England firstly because with everything that I've been doing I've been reaching out to everyone, professionals, academics, across charities, across the board. I thought, I'm going to let them know what I'm doing. I'm Marianne Pugsley, I'm putting in a petition. I also explained my abuse in a very limited way and said some of my abuse happened in England. Before I knew it, I was invited down there to go to the inquiry. Now I didn't have to say it was a state school, it was this or that. There are no exclusions. They have the truth project which gathers evidence across the board from everyone. No one is made to feel excluded. When I was invited down to that project you had no idea how happy that made me feel. It was like someone is going to listen to me. Someone wants to see what's happened to me and learn from my experiences. It also made me very, very sad. I thought, I'm not getting that up here. If I'm just one person who's being excluded, I personally thought, how else do all those other people feel that are being turned away? Yes, there are the charities out there that the third sector we can go to and be supported by. I know the money that's going into that and the development fund, etc. There's something powerful about really being taken seriously. The charities take people seriously and they're doing a tremendous job out there. For a Government not to turn round and say, we want to hear from you, it just doesn't make sense. It's sad. I think of the people out there and the dejection they must feel. I'm one. I don't know how many people have phoned the inquiry and been turned away because they don't meet the remit. I don't know what those figures are and I can't access them, but it's not nice when you have a door closed in your face. David Jones. Good morning, Mary Ann. You have referred to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child and then point number five in your petition have suggested that a number of articles within the convention may be open for debate. Can you expand on this in a little on your own words? Sorry, I didn't quite hear that, could you repeat it? Okay, I will do, thank you. You referred to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child and then point number five in your petition have suggested that a number of articles within the convention may be open for debate. Can you expand on this a little? I will, if I can. I think I put open, yes, I put that on there for debate for the people who would maybe be commenting on the petition's page and for discussion but unfortunately I put my hand up, I haven't brought that particular one with me so unless someone could read it out to me I don't have it with me. We'll have a look at it. Thank you. On the issue of corroboration, you state in your petition that a current law of corroboration appears to only serve as another barrier but victims of historical sexual abuse have to endure. Our briefing refers to an independent review led by Lord Barney in 2014-15 to look at what additional measures might be needed to be put in place in the event that the requirement of corroboration was abolished. One of the review's recommendations was that a jury research should be undertaken, that research is under way and expected to be completed in autumn of this year. Do you have any comment on this? I hope that when this review comes out, I think it's August 2019, that all the research papers that are out there in relation to child abuse and the patterns of abusers and the extent that they will go to to isolate a victim to instill the fear is taken into account. I can speak from my own personal experiences. I frequently was taken, not taken, but I had a meeting place with the person who abused me. It was in the middle of woods, way, way out in the country. I used to cycle there. There is still a tree there with a carving on it, with my initials and the accused initials on it. Short of having CCTV cameras there, what witness is going to be there? Those people who are prone to behave like these and commit these atrocities are going to find ways to become more and more secretive. I don't know how someone can corroborate that evidence. You don't acknowledge it until many years later. We know that. You don't tell anyone because you're scared or you're ashamed or you have all of these different things. You're not going to have forensic evidence. That's all. Where is the witness? Where is the person who's going to corroborate to come from? In an inquiry, yes, others may come forward because the trend is that they don't just abuse one person, they will abuse several. We can get others to corroborate, but without an inquiry we can't. The law doesn't lean itself to understanding the plight of a victim of child abuse. Thank you for that. Angus MacDonald. Thanks, Cymru. I'll stay with the issue of corroboration. Mary Ann, what is your view of the Scottish Government's position that any future consideration of corroboration needs to await the findings of the jury research and also in the wider context of that and the other recommendations of the Bonomy review? It basically looks like any change in the Government's position is a wee bit down the line. I think from my memory we had the Lord Carlywy, which was 2013, the review in 2013, and we're now back to it again. I just wonder how long we keep procrastinating with this. As far as I know, when it comes to children and when it comes to human rights, things have to be treated with immediacy. And it's like we can put off and we can put off and we can put off. And to me, there is a wealth of researchers and resources within the Government that can, if the will is there, it can be done in a timious manner. Have you had any opportunities to contribute to any consideration or consultations on the question of corroboration? No. So you've not been involved in the consultations? I hear what you say that there's a delay in a very strong campaign groups around corroboration that has been for a while. Do you think that you could argue that it was procrastination? Are there issues, do you acknowledge, that there are some issues in complexity for the very reason that you give that it can be a hidden crime where the victim is silenced and all the rest of it? Have you thought about what might be the protections that you would need to put into the system if corroboration was to go? I think, first of all, in child abuse cases, given the chance to have a fair trial from my readings on pulling in extra jury members, as was one of the recommendations, I believe, there are those to allow for wrongdoings for cases that are false accusations. I do appreciate with corroboration that people will make false accusations, but I think the evidence that is there has to go and be looked at within a court setting, but you can't get to that court setting. The law isn't even allowing you to get to that stage. The police are doing a phenomenal amount of work and it's resulting with no convictions and the accused walking free. So there's not waste of resources there, I'm not going to use the word waste of resources, but to what effect with all the work and the investigation they do, it's saying yes, it's an inappropriate relationship, but we're not actually addressing the justice for the accused or the victim. With corroboration, if we could at least get the stage of going to a fair trial, then let the jury members let the judges assess that and the complexities that are there, I'm not a legal head. Getting my head around all of the evidence that I know I've submitted loads has been difficult and a lot of it has been too traumatic to get through. I think we really need to just reach out to others and reach out to child sexual abuse victims. I'm unaware that there was a consultation paper where I could have had an input, but we really need to hear the voices of those people to say, right, how can we take this forward in sexual, child sexual abuse cases? The argument then would be that basically the way in which the prosecution service decides that this can't go to court, that that should be changed. Would you have a worry? I would certainly have, I think, that very often people who have been survivors of abuse will talk about being re-traumatised by the court system. Is there an anxiety that going into a court system, which is adversarial, in circumstances where there's not a lot of evidence, there's basically testimony, that in itself may be a challenge for the person? I think the merits of that should be taken on an individual basis. Everyone is different, the re-traumatising is hard going, I've been through it, I'm doing it, it's tough. There could be measures put in where the victim instead of being re-traumatised could have someone speak for them. There are bound to be ways around that, where it could be done outwith or video links, there will be ways, they have ways in other countries, we have to learn from those other countries and other judicial systems. There has been quite a lot of work done around vulnerable witnesses and so on, I just wonder whether does it mean that circumstances where the case to the person is absolutely clear, but in law it's difficult to prosecute that by saying we'll put it into the court anyway, that the person is going to end up being disappointed at the end of the process because there won't be a conviction? I hear what you're saying, then that could be an individual choice of the victim, but for those and for the evidence that's there surely that we could find guidelines that would guide us along that road where we could say, right, we have, in my case, to me, there was a lot of evidence, there were witness statements, there was a tree that was carved, which could be forensically dated. In a sense, the petition's not about your case but it's informed by your case. It would actually, the rules of corroboration would not have excluded that from going to court because you could have identified corroboration. My case didn't go to court because they said there was not enough evidence for corroboration, right? Well, yeah. That's right, that's your direct experience. I'm wondering whether some of that might be about the way in which corroboration test has been applied rather than the corroboration test itself but that's maybe something that we could explore further. I suppose I'm quite interested, I'm very interested in genuinely very interested in how we support survivors and have followed very closely the establishment of inquiry and the campaign round it and so on and the people who feel excluded from it. I was a school teacher myself for 20 years, I don't recall if I were anybody doing a background check on me but it was a long time ago. I wonder, I feel a bit reassured that systems are better now and I wonder if you think what happened to you will be less likely to happen now. Is there something in what you've established or looked at that in fact the system wouldn't deal with your complaint in the same way there would be greater scrutiny of complaints and so on. Have we moved on from your perspective in your terrible circumstances would a young person in your circumstances be treated differently? I think there could be the case where a young person in my circumstances could still be vulnerable. The accused in my part was still in the school and the reason being that it never went down in record as I said in my speech he's not going to put it on to his disclosure form. If what came about from the reason I got to my concerns was the lack of records I just wondered if you think that if you had made that kind of complaint now would the investigation be recorded and therefore would come up in the system? I'm doing a lot of FOIs at the moment I've done one to every council in Scotland and the figures that I'm getting back I don't want to quote them because I haven't collated them all together are hugely differing and the records that are being kept are minimal from what I can see I don't want to really go heavily on that because it's been quite busy pulling all this together so I don't know if things are being dealt with properly or not I cannot give a strong opinion on that I need to look at all the information that's come back to me and do it in some sort of spreadsheet and marry up with other stuff that I've been looking at so in answer to that I can't answer it actually the safeguarding things are there but there is good as the records that are kept and the information that's passed over to the police and other regulatory bodies okay, thanks Brian okay, on that point you would know that the FOIs you did to a lot of local authorities was around this idea of inappropriate relationships which let's be clear here can involve full sex with a minor within this inappropriate relationship how much of that data have you collected so far is there any trends around the local authorities recording these the trends are that the records one I can't remember which particular one they only have records going back to 2012 one is some of them aren't disclosing any records they're using it under data protection and I haven't asked for names I haven't asked for anything like that the trends seems to be that there are no records very not no records the records are only from the last 2012 2008 they're not going far back so there seems to be when it comes to child sexual abuse or inappropriate relationships allegations that they don't feel the need or haven't had an overall guidance coming from somewhere to say you must keep these records because it's only by keeping these records that then if people come forward and say I was alleged in abuse that they can look at it and have that confirmation but there seems to be a trend of poor record keeping and presumably you would advocate that these records are incredibly important to so we can understand we can understand the breadth of the issue absolutely because if you know I did an F one of the statistics I looked at was with operation hydrant which is the national police the national police chief council and they have recorded child sexual abuse cases I think I've submitted it to you as evidence inappropriate relationships are not included in that data so we're getting a figure of the largest institution on their last quarterly statistics of being schools it doesn't break it down into whether it's boarding state or whatever but it definitely is schools where child sexual abuse has occurred so all the different areas are not being pulled into that but as you said Brian it is a non consensual sex with a minor so all the different areas are not being pulled together and because child sexual abuse up here if it doesn't go to court as classed as inappropriate relationship that's not being pulled into the figures one of the things we were talking about earlier as it strikes me is we're trying to in cases where like sexual abuse in general in the ideas of the issues around rape in general we're trying to encourage victims to come forward and in doing so we're saying that they will be heard and they will be believed and yet your situation to suggest that is extremely difficult I'm the one presumably you would agree with that but how can we get to the basis of how big an issue this is if we cannot encourage those victims to come forward how can we get to the we need to understand we want to understand the breadth of this issue that's why there's an inquiry at the moment so to get the true picture we need to encourage victims of child abuse to come forward I think my concern here is that the difficulty I don't know how many people out there have had the same difficulties I think that's my issue neither do I but I do know people don't want to talk about it it is a tabu although it's out there now it's still a tabu subject is little groups of people be it on social media or twitter they all have followers and things but putting it out there into the big public is still a bit dodgy I because of this what I'm doing at the moment joined Facebook and Twitter and inadvertently had someone say oh I was abused too and then quickly retract the comments I don't want to talk about it there is still a stigma of shame for some people attached to it for keeping it quiet for not disclosing it it's nothing to be ashamed about you were a child and you have to come forward and until we do it again and get that strong message out let's come forward let's listen to you then we will get them forward and be able to listen to them and build a much much much stronger nation is the validation of being heard where we stop and listen and put it out again I didn't know when the in-care inquiry when all the beginnings of it and people were being consulted I was not aware of that at all now I don't have my head completely buried in the sand now I may have been busier with other things but if there was a sort of flux of awareness going on about that I wasn't aware I think if we really tried hard we could say right if you were come forward we're not going to put a time limit on it we're not going to say we're not ready for you yet we're not ready for you just let them come forward and listen to them stop them listening to them and then we will see the breadth of the problem just moving along with that which you say is available to you in south of the border it's not available to me it's available to those or to those who abuse happening south of the border is that right or do you have to be I think the victims commissioner is there for all victims to help in whatever way they can and I approached saying can you help me she directed me I believe to the actor she directed me to she said sadly they cannot intervene but sincerely hopes that MSP Whomza Yousaf's office will be able to offer some direction I think a victims commissioner with what I have found if I'd gone to them they would be doing this for me they would say we'll take this on you don't have to be re-traumatised as I believe the victims commissioner down in England fought for those as you mentioned going into court is re-traumatising applying to CICA is re-traumatising so presumably one of the things that you would like to come out of this would be consideration of a similar position up here to it as an outlet for those like yourself absolutely where as if you feel unfair you can go to someone I mean I came to you with frustration of what can I do but the work that I've had to put in to do this has been huge and you know so in one hand you're dealing as a victim trying to seek justice trying to get it right and yet in the other you're still having to do all this research and pull it together you know it's a bit of a heavy load workload when you actually are still the victim can I just go back to the question that David asked round 0.5 of the petition which is to get clarification on what it is you're looking for on this point so it says looking there for the rights of the child the following articles may be open for debate and you've listed number 346 1920 2934 39 and 42 and I've got them here it's your argument that if you were following the rights of the child the system would be different or do you think that these rights of the child do not adequately meet children's needs I think if we were following the rights of the child it would be different so specifically around the experience of young people in state schools if your argument would be that what's happened to you or what may have happened to many other people is in contravention of the rights of the child I think if we do not ensure that we are covering every possible parameter for predators still to be in the schools or to eradicate anyone who has been if we don't sorry let me think if we do not have this inquiry we're not going to be able to truthfully say that we have found every predator out there because my case proved that there was still someone in the system and that's my link to the rights of the child if we don't do everything in our power to make sure that there are no predators still within our system the accused was working and teaching in a state school until about 67 years ago the record keeping is not brilliant so we don't know who's still within the school as I said in my statement they're not going to put down that they've done anything wrong on their disclosure form so that is because there was not an inquiry or there was not an inquiry that then flagged up that there had been an inquiry the fact that the inquiry wasn't flagged anywhere because clearly disclosure system is not just about the person disclosing it's what's flung up through the system so if we have this inquiry I think and really push that people in state school who were abused came forward then we would be able to pull that information together and find out if there were other people still within the state school system and I think the chances of there being other people in the state school system it's out there I think it's quite strong that there could be okay thanks very much for that I think we've come to the end of our questions I wonder if members have comments or suggestions for action what we could be doing with this Brian I think, convener this throws up a lot of issues to me I think we've got to make sure we keep focused on that I think I'd be quite interested if we can to contact the truth project to see what parameters they're using because that seems to be a system that's encouraging victims to come forward I also would like to look at this idea of I'm very uncomfortable with inappropriate relationships and that and that not being recorded and the other thing that issues me is around the role of the local authority and how they handled this at the time they instigated an investigation they suspended the accused and let's face it, it's a serious criminality we're talking about here that was being alleged but the police weren't involved and the education authority weren't involved either there's then no record of that investigation and no record of why that teacher was moved on I think that I'm very uncomfortable with that so how do we close that loop specifically as well I'd be really interested to hear from a local authority's perspective whether that's still the case whether that can still happen I mean I think yes the systems are much more rigorous but whether even then it should have happened because there's some evidence that even though there were protocols there were rules in place at the time when people are going back they're saying oh well it was different times but in fact there were those protections for young people even at that time I mean I've never heard the term I've heard the term inappropriate relationship but I've never really heard a public system saying the fact that it wasn't really what you're saying it was an inappropriate relationship because I think we wouldn't accept it was appropriate between a teacher and a pupil anyway even if age wasn't part of it so I think it would be worse while writing to Scottish government maybe to local authorities because I'm sure they'll have done some work in this my own sense is that the capacity to get the inquiry opened up if I would be honest I think that's unlikely but it's certainly something that simply because it has been established and there has been resistance already in this argument about why it has been more narrowly defined but certainly just to raise this question about actually is state school are you in the care of the system of the state when you're in a state school that's an argument for that which is maybe not an argument that's been put forward before but I think we should write to them just to comment the terms of the petition and I think we should also the whole issue of corroboration is very live just now and I think from on that issue I think it would be interesting to wait to see what the jury research establishes and what the Scottish government is going to do around that the Scottish government to keep us informed with their progress what is their time scale what's their timeline for dealing with that I think that in terms of the corroboration I think that that is an issue that has been rehearsed in this place a few times I know there's quite a lot of resistance from the legal profession around corroboration doesn't mean to say we shouldn't challenge it of course but I'm not a legal person as you know but I wonder whether that whole broad brush of corroboration no matter what the crime is is appropriate I think that the only thing I'm slightly concerned about is I think that as Marianne in her testimony said is this outlet that's somewhere to go somewhere to speak and the idea that time is going to be one of the factors that will prevent that from happening again I'm quite uncomfortable with that if it takes time it takes time well in my understanding of the inquiry which in itself was the result of a campaign by survivors there wasn't something that was handed to survivors it was something that they fought very hard for that there was a decision made that specific focus should be on in-care survivors and that then by definition excluded other people and I don't think it was about time I think it was about focus you can have an argument whether that's right or not but that was a decision that was made by what we wanted to go back to the Scottish Government with is here is evidence the folk who were effectively in the care of the state during the working day with somebody in authority abusing that authority where does that lie where are you going to look at that and I think that is a very significant question is there a case then maybe to include within that the the fly the kite around this the victim's commissioner idea that again is an issue that there have been people who have campaigned for that over the lifetime of this Parliament it has appeared at various times and has never really succeeded and I suppose the question is can a victim's commissioner take up cases or is it a victim's commissioner who speaks to that need of victims in systems and how they are treated than individuals so I think that what we would want the Scottish Government to do is to respond to the petition you know and to give us the views on how is somebody who's been abusing this system how are they now protected, have the systems changed and where is the recourse and redress when they're out with the remit of the inquiry I think that the corroboration questions will continue and there's a lot of people on very strong views on either side of the argument but the kind of silent crime that involves threats and the silencing of victims is particularly challenging and I think that we'd be interested in hearing what they have to say to that but I think that we should certainly be asking for a timeline from them on where they're going to be around corroboration is there anything else? I was just to start that we have a victims commissioner that we can write to at least understand what their remit is albeit that it's in England but that gives us an idea of where they are and I said that I am interested in hearing about the truth project and what their remit is as well and I don't think there's any harm in writing to them I think that if not then we can certainly get the remit of the commissioner around the question of the commission at the time when it was argued for I think that it was one of my colleagues that argued for it they took the view that rather than having a commissioner they direct resources to those organisations that can support survivors and support victims and I suppose the other thing we would want to look at or at least to have provided as information to us actually what the landscape is like for survivors who are not in care and they themselves may feel unsupported but there are particular pathways that they can go in order to get support there are a lot of privileged and a lot of wonderful people who work in this field and have established charities and other sector organisations the support survivors I would be quite interested to what extent that is something that people are aware of do they know about it how do they access that and how substantial that is but that's again something that we should look at because that's certainly there are organisations who are very strongly advocated for survivors outside the care system but it's whether it's matching up then with people who are expressing a need one of the things that was flagged up to me by some of the survivor groups that the very fact of the inquiry taking place will mean that for some people their own experience will finally be something that they address and are we clear that when they decide to do that and disclose that there are support services there to be able to help them through that and I'm not sure if that is there but that's again something that people have been thinking about Angus well just to say convener I agree with the action points suggested so far but just following up on Brian's point regarding a victims commissioner and your own comments I think we really need to look at that again and try and get the Government's position on it and certainly it seems to me a bit of a no-brainer that we should have one in place already but clearly it's been debated at length in the past I mean there are previous comments from the Deputy First Minister that we haven't referred to I mean there is a specific issue with regard to completing the current inquiry within a reasonable time scale he specifically mentioned that and my concern would be that where there to be where the remit to be expanded then we could be talking about a number of years and significant extra work I realise that the seriousness of the issue I agree with the action points suggested so far I think that there is quite a lot for us to be pursuing in that regard recognising and acknowledging the evidence that has come from the petitioner that if not the inquiry then what where is the place that people who have been abused in the state school system how would that support what would the Scottish Government be looking at inquiring into that and then the whole question of whether they were actually meeting the needs of young people whether the system is better now than it was in the past have there already been lessons learned are we in breach of the rights of the child these are all things that obviously have been flagged up I think that our first point is really to try and identify from Scottish Government and COSLA what their views are on the petition and also perhaps to get a picture of what a commissioner does and what is the landscape around support for those who are outside the care system currently in Scotland so I think that there is a great deal there for us to think about and reflect on thank you very much for coming along today I appreciate that obviously this point is a culmination of a lot of work for you and when you're so very personally engaged with the issue I'm sure it's something very difficult for you so thank you very much for coming along today obviously once we have responses we'll be sharing them with you you'll be able to respond to that and then there'll be a further hearing from the petitions committee at that stage so if I can thank you very much I'll be a witness to leave thank you if I can then call the meeting back to order the next agenda item relates to the committee's inquiry into mental health support for young people in Scotland as members will be aware this inquiry was launched in connection with petition PE1627 the consent for mental health treatment for people under 18 years of age raised by Annette Mackenzie at our meeting on the 21st of March 2019 the committee heard evidence from the minister for mental health and the progress of Scottish Government mental health policies for the purpose of assisting the committee in determining whether it could focus its work within where it could focus its work within the inquiry this will aid in avoiding duplication of effort by various agencies and in identifying the themes that we would like more closely to examine more in-depth analysis of the inquiry submissions has been conducted and prominent themes from all the call for evidence activities received have been set out in the paper my intention today is to consider the themes and then deciding three or four themes to be the on-going focus of the inquiry as we are all aware there is already a lot of work outside of this inquiry and we would not want to duplicate these efforts we also want to ensure the inquiry has sufficient focus to understand as much as possible how young people can get mental health advice and support they need and I wonder if members have comments or suggestions for the themes that they would like to see the inquiry focus in going forward I am very interested in looking at the role of the GP and the role of teachers around the professional constraints argument I think the net McKenzie case I think exercised this committee it was very hard case to hear I think there is an acknowledgement from the profession that decisions were made by the GP but under that constraint of a lack of time to properly deal with mental health conditions and I think that I would be really interested to look at the potential of the triage system that could direct people suffering with mental health to the right and appropriate place I would also be really interested, I know that a majority of teachers themselves would welcome some sort of mental health training and also noting that even though they would like that to happen the majority of teachers don't have that so I think that the professional constraints is an area that we could possibly make some headway I think that you're absolutely right I think that's one area that we should look at and try to get a sense from GP's themselves is there argument that actually it's impossible for them in the time that they've got and do they think that somebody else is more appropriate to do that kind of front line work and what would that look like I think that having that conversation with GP's would be really interesting I was struck by the argument that we had been told that a first consultation should not involve a young person getting antidepressants but it turns out that it's antidepressants rather than other medication and of course in the case that the petition has prompted there was medication given which went antidepressants but that seems to me not ultimately to have been a material consideration I think that we want to look at that and have that conversation with doctors are they aware of or what's the rationale for saying on a first appointment you shouldn't be given antidepressants is it because you don't know the patient's circumstance as well enough but if that's the case should that be extended to a broader range of medications and I think again that's the kind of I think that would be a very useful conversation and I think on a second point you might round teachers I would extend it to school staff because quite often young people will not necessarily go to their own guidance teacher they will have somebody maybe they have they feel they can confide in are those people geared up to knowing would it be a support staff member or whoever and I think that would again be something perhaps that the committee could go out and do a bit of work on I think that would be very useful David there are good practices out there in some of the high schools I think everybody's area in how they're doing dealing with mental health issues with pupils so it might be worth having a look at some of these good practices out there it is, haven't it yeah, yeah so I think that would be one area any others Angus well a peer support I think is an important one I think they're all important but peer support was an issue that came up in an evidence session for another petition and I can't recall which one it was but Sam H were very keen on the issue of peer support and promoting that so I'd be keen to to see where there's maybe some good practice already been undertaken and if not we should look at ways in which peer support can be supported and introduced where it's not happening I was also interested to note in a briefing that the CAMS service provided by NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde has an early intervention pilot project under way which is working alongside school staff so I'd be keen to get some more information on that and perhaps a visit to Glasgow might be an option to look at always to be welcome to ask you would say that I'd be keen to learn some more about any early intervention projects that are under way already Brian just add in when we're speaking to if that's what we're going to go and speak to GPs one of the questions I would quite like to ask is there access to alternative treatments as opposed to just medication what access do we have as an alternative my sense is that's the argument they would make that they're constrained by time and with options but the one thing they can do is medecate and I suppose my sense is that's not what GPs themselves want to do if there was an alternative so it's getting a proper sense it would be useful for us to map out against the identified areas that are in the paper what already is happening and then I certainly think that we should be trying to get out when we want to be talking to those who have a direct experience of the consequence of the system when Mackenzie herself has been a very powerful witness for us but that kind of understanding at the front line what that is meant for families would be useful and I think this thing maybe it's under advice and awareness raising for a young person to know who to ask and for the person they ask to know what to say is really powerful when people talk about it as mental health first aid but that idea we all, as human beings should have that capacity to be able to respond in a way that's going to help somebody at that point and to understand that it may not be family it may be friends or who are somebody else that they might want to get support from and I suppose the other one that I would be quite interested in in talking to GPs and to other professionals is the constraint around confidentiality because it's always at the heart of what's happening in the net Mackenzie case or it's at the heart of the petition which is somebody in those circumstances not are family not being aware of it and we've had this whole argument round of debate around confidentiality and protection. I just wonder whether and I've been interested in talking to professionals about this do they treat mental health issues differently in a way from like a physical illness you would say well you know all this advice as a support group to your family do people feel constrained around mental health in a way that they don't feel constrained around physical health because you know I would hope that somebody in those circumstances who are very anxious that at least seeing to them of course your family or your friends might be able to help you as somebody you want to talk to would be a reasonable starting point I think that you know convener that one of the things that was in my mind since and at Mackenzie brought her case to here is around a person you know presenting with mental health issues their capacity to self-medicate that is stuck with me I understand all the arguments that is stuck with me I'd be really interested here from the professionals themselves what their views are on that and I think we're agreeing to go and go out with this to Glasgow perhaps to other parts of the country around doing that kind of inquiry because it would then allow us to look at maybe some of the support organisations that are around as well and where people would go and get a bit of a sense of the landscape are there any others of these that you would want to flug up I think that around advice and awareness raising as well is also to get a sense of how modern it is so I know from hearing from I recall hearing from the Samaritan saying that they have now acknowledged that for some young people they prefer to have the conversation by text rather than by phone and they're developing themselves I think that a lot of the mental health services are doing that so even just knowing the technology terms what are the technological ways that people can tap in and how does the system let young people in particular know about that I think that that would also be worthwhile I think that I'm very struck by the fact that all of the options that are identified are all really important but I think that we want to have a bit of focus and that is because we know there's a lot going on the danger for us is that so much going on that we simply kind of observe it rather than trying to intervene and have a wee bit of focus and I think that the suggestions that are made so far allow us to do that and include doing other things at a later stage but maybe we might want to think about other stages to this inquiry for us so that professional bit the bit of advice that we're raising the way in which we're raising and peer support might be three areas that we can actually do a bit of timetabling of a bit of work and give reassurance I think to the petition and others that the inquiry is very much connected to the petition it comes from that and a desire to understand from the petition how the system needs to change I think that also some of the other issues that are within the paper will automatically get covered I was looking here around this specialist mental health service I think that inevitably through focusing the investigation in the areas that we are will inevitably cover that without having specifically to look at that OK Anything else? I think that we want to thank Clart's amount of work that has been done so far and again to those who have responded because I think that helped very much inform the stage we've got and people clearly have very strong views and direct experience that they wanted to share and we appreciate that so I think that we would be looking to get a sense of a staged approach and timelines around that as well so we can get a clear idea of how we're going to progress with it It was very obvious from our meeting with the mental health minister there's a lot of things going on but the question is whether there are a lot of things that are going on to having a direct impact at a local level I think that was mentioned earlier in the deep end GP surgeries have very strong views what is said in policy terms is actually being lived out I think that would be really useful for us to have that in as well so if there are no other comments in that I think that we appreciate the significant work for us to do in this and I was for one certainly looking forward to hearing that direct experience of people who have got lots of expertise experience and strong views that maybe can help to shape what we want to recommend If there's nothing else can I thank everyone for their attendance and I'll close the meeting