 Good morning, Mayor Rogers. Good morning. I think that's everyone. Yes. Oh, you know what? Jesse is not on. Let me just try to find Jesse and then we can start. Sorry, Jesse is our first item. And he said he could be here. Well, we get Jesse moved over. Let's go ahead and call to order. Madam recording secretary, can you call the roll? Good morning. Thank you. Absolutely. Member Fleming. Present morning. Morning. Mayor. Sorry, member Sawyer. Here. Thank you. And Mayor Rogers. Here. Let the record reflect that the subcommittee is present. Thank you. Great. Thank you. We'll start with public comment for non-agenda item. If you have a comment on something within the economic development subcommittee jurisdiction, but not on today's agenda. We'll start with public comment. Thank you. I see that we have Mr. Frazier. It'll just take me one moment to get that screen up. Mr. Frazier, you have been given permission to speak. If you would just confirm your ability to see the screen in one second. I apologize. A little bit of a delay. All right. You should be able to see that now. Yeah. Thank you very much. I can see the screen and good morning to everybody. We're disappointed that there wasn't a subcommittee meeting. And the subcommittee has been canceled. And of course that's important because short-term rentals are on everybody's mind. And the, you know, it's not lost on us that the promised public processes and public hearings connected with a robust planning process, a robust and legal planning process. That was promised in the spring of 2022. Did not happen. And we do have some questions about that. We also have questions about why staff continues to use defective information in its presentations. The level of propaganda and misinformation really does nothing to solve any issues. It actually camouflages the real issues. And it does have a negative impact on our community in our neighborhoods. Because the city, by using incorrect information and strained from the truth, gives shelter to people that feel that they can terrorize their neighbors, their short-term rental-owning neighbors and their guests. And while there's very little factually when it comes to the complaint basis, after all, one of the council members in this meeting solicited over a hundred complaints from one vexatious complainer about defective advertisements and whatnot. You know, that's the type of stuff that we see in authoritarian governments. It's not the stuff that we value in a transparent democracy. So there's a lot of defects going on there when it comes to your strategy. And I'm not exactly sure what your motives are. It's like the motives don't really matter, I suppose. I thank you very much for approving our non-hosted application. Thank you. That just means that our house will probably be a non-hosted STR for decades. Why would we want to change that? By creating STR regulations, you're creating a sense of scarcity and not only hyping fear, but you're really making a huge mistake. The civil rights abuses are amazing and really probably going to be the basis of our research going forward. The psychological warfare is really interesting. And I can see that's coming from trained psychological experts in the psychological sciences. But it all boils down to these incredible civil rights violations of creating racist fear against visitors and attacking property owners because they differ with your ideology. So we'll see what happens tonight. Thank you very much. There are no additional hands raised at this time. All right, let's go on to item 3.1 then. So Jesse is going to actually start this off, but we have promoted a couple of people and then more when they come on. But Cadence and Tara are here with me as well because between these two items, the 3.1 and 3.2, we want to just sort of have a flowing conversation about the opportunities. But we're starting with this with Jesse because we get a lot of questions about tenant improvements as a means by which to open and quickly get businesses up and running or to change things. So Jesse, I'm going to hand it over to you and then we're going to sort of flow into the next conversation as well. Well, good morning. Thank you, Raysa. And good morning, everyone. Thanks for having me today. So Raysa and I had a couple of discussions about some of these inquiries that she's been getting and the Chamber's been getting and the real interest in what can we do from our perspective to really assist the businesses and really from what my perspective is, is really retenanting spaces. That's a pretty common occurrence in the downtown area and elsewhere. And our target for the discussion today is really the primary ones in the areas of concern is office retail and restaurant. And I just want to add that what we're wanting to do won't just specifically be for those. We want to, we'll have discussions a little bit later about what we want to discuss and how we want to approach it, being citywide, literally, because there's no reason that our approaches can't be utilized in any sector, any type of business or manufacturing. So for applicants or folks that are just maybe considering moving into a business space, they always have these questions on what do I need a permit for? And part of our goal is going to be lining out and giving real clear guidance on what really triggers, and that was a key word used, what triggers us having to not in a bad way deal with the city and getting permits. So I'll run through some of the things that we know in our department and those that don't deal with this, they really have no way of knowing. One of the key things is if somebody wants to retenant a space, if it works for them and what they're going to propose the new use as, if it was that before and what they're going to do is very similar or the same, that's the easiest path. You don't technically need even a building permit for that. And that doesn't mean that someone can't come into a tenant space and I'll use, say, a retail, which we see quite a lot of retenanting. If something was a retail, what we call a mercantile before, and someone wants to move into that mercantile, but they don't like the way it looks. They want to freshen it up, so to speak, they want to do new finishes, paint, new flooring, things like that to a pretty high level, that type of work doesn't even require permits. And we're always willing to talk people through what that means. And I hope that my approach to really adjudicating the building codes is that I hope it's known that I look for the easiest path and try to, other regulators wouldn't like me to hear me say this, but I help to find exemptions. I try to find a way so people don't have to do x, y, or z. That's pretty contrary to normal regulatory approaches. But why do we want to regulate something if it really doesn't have to and legally and we aren't required to and everything can be done safely? So that's our real goal is safe and healthy occupancy. So that's really, we wanted to develop some guidance and it's fairly straightforward on what that means. Somebody wants to retain a new space and they don't have to even deal with us, other than getting a very straightforward, what we call a zoning clearance. That's a planning approval that says you can do what you're proposing to do, where you're proposing to do it, and then that business tax certificate. That's the easiest ground level. Then we really start getting into those what we deem to triggers. If someone needs to move in and retent it, say an office retail or restaurant, and they propose making physical changes to the building, that's where the state codes, the state laws, they kind of require us to open the book, so to speak. And every time we have to open that book, the biggest scariest component always tends to be accessibility. A lot of people refer to it as ADA. That is the federal term here in California, it is California accessibility, very synonymous. That's the scariest, tends to be the scariest part for folks when they say, I want to move in here, but am I going to be required to upgrade all the ADA stuff? That's where it starts getting a little more ambiguous, a little more cloudy on how it's applied, and it does, if somebody wants to make physical changes to any commercial building, with some exceptions, technically they're required to obtain the services of a licensed design professional. Typically that's a licensed architect, licensed civil engineer, licensed structural engineer, one or all of those. And then that starts creating the anxiety of costs you see hiring those additional folks, and it starts really building up the cost to just try and get into a space. We try to limit that as much as possible, we will pre-meet with anybody that has a proposal on a drawing, and we'll give them guidance, and then again, we'll also, we do have developed some guidance for tenant improvements, but we can do a better job at targeting this perspective on the new business owner that wants to relocate, to give them a little more of a clear idea and say a decision chart on what they may or may not have to do. Again, back to the scary thing that tends to be the accessibility, that's where costs really start coming into play, and of course we have a pretty old downtown, and it becomes even more challenging with, it's always much more challenging with existing buildings. So that's where we have those design professionals in our team talk about what they propose doing, and then there's this other term that we have, it's a trigger, but it's a legal threshold in the codes that says if you spend this much, if you're proposing to do this physical change to the building, and it's going to cost you X, up to a certain amount, you have to spend 20% on top of that to make these additional upgrades to accessibility. So that's really where it starts hurting the bottom line for a retenending is someone with a business proposal may have all of their costs, they've maybe even gotten bids for construction and have talked to a contractor and they know what their costs are going to be. Say it's fairly significant, say approaching $200,000, which doesn't take long to get there these days, we all know construction costs wise. Well, if you approach that amount, say $200,000, you have to add another almost $40,000 you have to add to this pot of money that you are required by law to spend on additional accessibility upgrades. And unfortunately, again, due to the age of so many buildings that may have been tentative for very low turnover for a period of time, those tenants weren't required to do any upgrades in the eyes of California law for many, many years. So now we're faced with this old building that has a lot of work that we have to do. We do have the ability, there's forms that we can work with applicants and their professionals that give us the allowance to say, okay, there's a term called unreasonable hardship. The technical requirement really is the code says, if you're going to move in and make changes, make everything accessible 100%, then we get into these exceptions. So that's really where the clouds start coming over the process and people really not understanding and knowing what it really means when they have to retent it at space. And we unfortunately are in the difficult situation of having to deliver the news that not only do you have to do this work, you have to do that too. So that's the real difficult point. The other physical changes typically, we don't run into too many problems, especially these types of occupancies, restaurants are their own animal. And if somebody's going to do a restaurant that comes with its own real challenges with the food preparation, health department, sanitary disposal, those kinds of things, but those are not that the projects themselves typically aren't that overly complicated. Unless somebody is just going to do a complete redo of the inside of an entire building. So then it starts getting complicated. But again, it's all confined within the code. So again, kind of three different levels. We're going to do nothing physical that requires a permit. We're going to do a few things. We can work through a few small things that they may have to do. And then there's the big one that really it's a lot of money going into it. A lot of extra money that has to cover these accessibility costs. And then working with our team and our teams, we're very fortunate to have some really experienced code professionals. And we're adding another one. I'm so happy to announce first time in 14 years, new plan checker coming on board. So the team's always ready to meet with folks, meet at the counter, look at a conceptual plan, give feedback, give them some options. And sometimes that can be multiple trips. We can talk to them about their plan. We give them a bunch of feedback. They go back and talk to maybe the contractor, drafts person, design professional. And then they find out they start doing dollars, they'll come back and say, you know what, that wasn't going to cost us too much. Let's scale it down. If we do this, what do we really have to do then? So we'll work with them on every occasion to do that. I've rambled for quite some time with a lot of information in the game. Most of the focus is on that accessibility component, which from my perspective seems to be the biggest scariest part. And then next I'm sure we'll want to talk about. So this process, we make it well known, we can meet with folks. How do we execute it rather quickly? And as everybody's been living through this whole crazy COVID world, we've gone totally digital. I just shared with Racy yesterday, I have a brilliant plan check engineer that I've posed the question to several times to our plan check group. And I said, how in the world are we going to do this over the counter, which we used to do exceptionally well? How do we do an over the counter plan review and send somebody out with their permit? The electronic world is everybody, we work with everybody electronically, they send us plans, we review them. And then we send them back electronically, go back and forth, we don't have that face to face. So we do have a plan to move forward on a pseudo over the counter, literally within a day or two turnaround for projects that can qualify. In other words, there's something that we can do within a reasonable amount of time in a single day and get things, take care. So I want to stop talking, spouted a whole bunch of stuff off and give everybody a chance to pick my little gray matter if needed. And I know that Johnny have a question, but I want to also go back and when after we answer some questions and just sort of frame this as the foundation for the nice conversation so it can broaden the issues as well. Yeah, go ahead, John. John. Thanks, Mayor. Thanks, right. You know, I'm curious, Jesse, in your literature that you might be handing out to prospective tenants or tenants that are looking to do some improvements. Do you also have a conversation with the tenant unless they own the building about having a conversation with the landlords about sharing costs, especially with ADA improvements and because that is an ADA improvement is a long term investment in a building and it lives with the building as long as the building is there and that landlord is going to benefit from that change. Do you make those kind of recommendations? Have you had a conversation? Do you ask the tenant? Have you had a conversation with your landlord? Do you go there? Very sparingly from a legal perspective. We do not get into financials or ownership or things like those, but we do have that conversation and I'll give a real good example of something that will probably illustrate your question. Picture a strip mall that has say 10 tenant spaces in the new slushy shop wants to go into one of these spaces and their lease typically is, as most of you know, especially you, John, is that their lease space is limited to the confines of their walls. Well, the code, the laws, are going to tell us that if you go in and do all these changes that require permits, you're also going to have to do work outside that is under landlord control, say parking space improvements, other improvements outside the building. So that really lends itself to that discussion and we tend to really try to avoid being that middle person between a tenant and a landlord. We will, you know, when say a tenant says, well, that's not in my lease. That's when we say, well, let's get your landlord involved. You have a very good point, but we do, and again, I'll say from the legal perspective, we have to be extremely careful when we, when we say you should do this or you should do that, especially when it comes to private negotiations on leases and those kinds of things. But we do say, we do let people know it is something that will need to be worked out between you and your landlord or, or, and a lot of times we can actually work out deals in that, that example that I use that one tenant space lease confined to the space and the tenant is just specifically saying I can only pull a permit for this. We'll say, okay, well, we'll talk to your landlord and let them know that this is a requirement of this permit. And if they want to pull a separate permit, so you guys are separated, we'll do that. That way we're still complying with the law to meet those requirements. But I hope that that answers some of your question. It does. Thank you. So, you know, pulling this back out a little bit in terms of this is a little bit when I put the agenda together, it's a little bit of the tail wagging the dog in terms of like, we knew sort of generally want to put it together, what we want to talk about or what are the issues that come to the city in terms of the time costing certainty issues around everything from small business to large business. But the crux of the issue that Jesse is sort of saying, pointing out that we have multiple ways to kind of address it, it comes from, let me stop. What I'm interested in for the discussion today goes into the next one as well, is incentives. And we have issues from small to large in terms of how we address some of these things. And the day-to-day business, I think we get the most questions in economic development about tenant improvements, about ease and speed of getting your business up and running. And generally, they're the small businesses. So we looked preliminarily to try to address this with the ARPA funds. So Tara and Rafael are working on the facade improvement program and the mural program for small businesses to try to aid them. But the thing that was interesting is we went first and foremost after a tenant improvement program, realizing after we were looking at that, that it's far too complicated and the restrictions, mostly the time constraints around the ARPA funds would make that very difficult. So we're throwing out sort of like, I want to open up the question of incentives in this sort of super preliminary discussion that's going to be kind of messy to help us understand moving forward what might be of interest to the council. And to make it more complicated. So we have developers coming in on one hand and they're building things and having issues with recruiting. And a lot of times that comes down to tenant improvements and the cost that's handed from a developer onto a tenant, right? And then we have small businesses who are looking to open just a mom and pop shop that are, that, you know, again, are finding, if they're being compliant, are finding that they are not prepared for the cost and time constraints of getting a permit for their tenant improvements generally, right? That's generally what it comes down to. And then on top of that, where I become sort of interested in if there are programs to incentivize because we are looking at, I forget what it's called, the, we're looking at development review strategic plan. We're looking at fee schedule surveys. But what is interesting is how do these things begin to overlay over the long period of time, if we're going to create a program say within a year, 18 months that aligns with the general plan update. And this idea of neighborhood nodes, the equity overlay considerations, the economic development strategic action plan, which are the second goal of our plan is to design and implement data-driven policies and programs to elevate support local business owners, social entrepreneurs, representing historically marginalized groups. This aligns with the general plan update. And then the interest of the downtown and our economic drivers in downtown. So this is a lot of things that I'm going to ask you to talk about. I'm going to try to guide this conversation knowing that on the daily, the most questions we have are about tenant improvements. We have limited funds. We have ARPA funds that were committed to do business facade improvements and murals. We have the opportunity to adjust our existing programmatic budgets to align for future things in the next 12 to 18 months when the general plan is adopted. And then we have equity overlay interest. We also have a healthy city interest. So this is a slightly messy way to just sort of open the floor and I can start asking questions or guiding. But I want to see if you guys have questions about what our objectives are today with this discussion. Go ahead, John. There we go. I'm sorry about that. So without playing a blame game, is financing improvements, is that the biggest challenge or is it our lack of ability to turn around applications and permits because of staffing gaps or whatever it might be? What is the most of the various pieces that we're trying to solve? What is the one that seems to be the most challenging or that puts a roadblock up in front of people who want to locate their businesses in Santa Rosa regardless of downtown or wherever it might be? Is it a lack of funding that they are challenged with or is it our processes and our permitting process and our turnaround time that seems to be the biggest brick wall in front of them? Kate, I'm having a hard time hearing you. You're garbled. Sorry about that. Am I the only one that is hearing garbling? No. I wonder if you need to be closer to them. Is this any better? Yes. Thank you. From downtown business owners and developers, it's the time, the length of time it takes to work through the process. So I have to imagine that kind of falls in line with what Jesse was saying for when they end up hitting that ADA requirement and needing to work through that whole process. But I am curious, Jesse, if you were to look at the last 100 businesses that had to go that opened in Santa Rosa, how many fell into the easy category of just getting their business license? How many were in that middle range that were able to just make some basic level and then how many triggered working through the ADA process because they were doing more substantial TI's? Good question. I apologize. I am three levels disconnected from permit processing. So I would have to literally go back to a bunch of staff and get that information. But we can look at that in terms that we can look at that like if we if we decide that we do want to look at some other streamlining pieces of it. If it's because I've heard two things, I've heard it's time and I can't believe the cost to a certain degree. And it depends on if you're downtown also and if you're in other areas and if you're resourced or under resourced. And if we're looking at developing programs that would, if there are ideas about developing programs that could be piloted in the downtown, you know, I think that changes it as well in terms of what the issues are. I hear mostly it's time, but I think partly as well it's not understanding the process and not and also not being compliant in going through a permitting process. Tara, do you want to take a second and talk about why we didn't do a tenant improvement and some of the issues around that as well? Sure. Yeah, with the ARPA funds having a debt kind of a deadline, a timeline for when they need to be associated with projects and then completely used, we felt like it would be a little bit futile to try to attach it to a tenant improvement program because of the length of structuring a program, getting a grant application out there that clearly outlined all the requirements that businesses would have to follow and if they were doing tenant improvements and if it triggered additional requirements such as the ADA upgrades and all of the licensed design professionals that would need to be involved in the project. So mainly the time constraint due to the funding source was the reason that we shifted to facade improvements which can be done through a quicker process, minor design review, less permitting, less permitting, no ADA triggers, things like that make it more streamlined. So that's the direction we headed with that grant program. It will still include the mural or public art component. Again, outdoors on exterior buildings and murals are kind of exempt from other design reviews since they're considered art public art rather than a sign. So that's a streamlined process already through the public art program. So if we're looking at, so just for ease of the conversation, if we're looking at incentivizing recruiting businesses in the downtown, so we have a recruitment program for the downtown and tenant improvements is one piece of it. You know, the other things that have come up in terms of incentive opportunities or incentive ideas include waiving the business tax for new businesses downtown. Other incentives include, actually, I think that's the only one that's come up, or it's waiving fees, it's doing like a downtown overlay to expedite it almost the way that we have for affordable housing. Like how do you get a permit request? And this speaks to the timing piece of that. How do you get a permit request for a downtown business elevated in order to get it moving more quickly? And the issues, again, that we're looking at really are specifically vibrancy and using downtown as a model that we can maybe replicate in other areas. And if we do something, is it scalable across the city? One, and is it possible, or is it needed to sort of isolate what we're trying to recruit? So tenant improvements, for example, programs, if we were able to create a program like that that's not tied to ARPA money that has sort of timing restrictions, a lot of cities do it only for childcare. Well, we have the facility funds and we did that, or they do it only for restaurants and they do it only for certain uses. So that's one method. What I'm curious to is, are you hearing or seeing other things, or do you have an interest in recruiting other kind of businesses? Go ahead, Victoria. Thank you. This is all really awesome. And I'm excited to hear from you, as well as our business partners who are here today, what specific types of incentivized stations would be most effective in drawing downtown and other areas that we identify as priorities, the types of businesses that we want and also retaining them. To that end, I think that maybe we've talked about it a little bit. I've talked about it with anybody who'll listen about a program for restaurant businesses in particular. Could we have a rotating liquor license library, where the city perhaps purchases something like five liquor licenses and then rents them out at below market to restaurant tours for let's say like $20,000 a year for five years and then at five year at the five year mark, you would have to go and get your own liquor license. But at that point, your restaurant would be well established and it would then free up a liquor license for another business. And the reason why I've thought about it like this is that then over time, the city would get paid back and could potentially purchase more or use that revenue to invest in other business attraction or retention programs. So that's one thought that I've been having. Another is I'm just interested to hear from both staff and from Peter and Cadence, what types of things could we do that would be most effective as in bringing the biggest thing for our buck? Is it reducing fees and taxes or is it actually having programs that finance portions of business development? Or is it something that we could use to retain businesses? So it's not just about attracting, but it's also about retaining businesses because I think that everybody's heart just falls their stomach a little bit every time a restaurant closes downtown or somebody doesn't make it and we know how much they put into it. So that's an open question. I want to make sure that we go with the evidence and not just with whatever hair brain idea I came up with. Go ahead. Go ahead, who? Go ahead, me. Cadence. I do want to piggyback on that because I think it's really important that we are talking about retaining our businesses. And as the downtown has looked at ways that kind of taking a look at what the biggest issues are that face our current business owners that would make it easier for new businesses to come in and stay. Fast-tracking TI permits is definitely top of the list. Looking at our sign permit policy, which Claire and Amy are moving forward with in what seems like a really helpful way. So we're excited to see that get streamlined and simplified because I mean businesses not just downtown but everywhere in Santa Rosa need to go through a sign permitting process or should be going through a sign permitting process. We also talked about reducing parking permit fees for downtown because that's a barrier for employers in the downtown that really only impacts downtown where we have paid parking. So it often incentivizes new office leasing if they can get discounted employee parking because many of the office tenants choose to pay for their employees parking which is a pretty significant expense if you're looking at you know 80 to 90 dollars an employee per month. And if we want to be you know trying to fill the empty office spaces here even in the current office climate it's important to figure out how we can reduce some of those fees that is downtown specific. And then the other thing that we've talked about is the potential like five-year suspension of business license fees for new employers in downtown. Again that doesn't necessarily have to be downtown specific. It's kind of a minimal financial impact to the city but it's really about the perception of Santa Rosa being business friendly and wanting to see businesses succeed. So I think there are other ideas like that that could be fee waivers they could be incentives they could be small policy changes like we're seeing with the sign permitting process that just also help it make it easier for us to talk about how Santa Rosa is business friendly right. If we get this kind of ability to promote the mid-level TI list what's a simple thing to do how to you know appropriately work through the process without triggering ADA ADA upgrades that'll also be a really helpful thing to share to show how the city is trying to help get businesses started quickly because the time again is a big issue cost obviously is as well but I hear time and time again I did not expect it to take the song or I thought I was going to be up and running months ago or I had been planning on having revenue since March and now here we are in August. So those are the kinds of things that then make it really hard for a business to stay because they've had months and months where their business plan you know had them opening and bringing in customers and they've just had to keep their doors closed. So giving them the easiest possible way to start is a great way to retain and then from our perspective in the downtown when you can get a better mix of retailers and restaurants you can fill office spaces that all is all of that even if we've got an office that's empty and then all of a sudden they bring in 20 employees those 20 employees are buying lunch they're getting their coffee they're shopping during their lunch breaks and all of that is going to help our retailers and our restaurants stay open longer and kind of get their feet under them so that then they can be one of the businesses that's been downtown for 30 or 40 years. So I think kind of the willingness or the appetite of council to get a little creative and figure out what types of changes can be made to make it more sustainable will be really important because obviously we you know we've got some and ideally they are making an impact on the greater standard as a community because when that's healthy then downtown is healthy but would love to hear what everyone else thinks as well. Yeah so Caden Sir Peter can we pull this back just a little bit and give us an example of a city that's doing it well. I mean I know if Peter I'm curious to hear what you have to say but I mean the research that I've done they're just doing it differently we're all struggling with some of these same things and from a city like from my staff perspective and like the thing that I always worry about is what if we're already in a prioritizing affordable housing and it's taking its toll on like Jesse and staff right jamming these things out it's Jesse pointed out to me it's building fire and water right so it's not just one impacting one department but it's multiple so different cities with different funding sources have different solutions and none of them are good so or none of them are necessarily ideally some of them are good but they may be not hitting the goals all the goals we're looking for so what different creative solutions Peter I don't know if you if you had some difference. Well I appreciate the the question and the intent behind it right to be able to pick up and transfer over a policy that would be minimal work on on staff to to get it across the finish line but rice I think you're right I think there's fundamentally places that are doing it right are doing exactly what cadence said right so it isn't a lot of work to to waive a fee it's not a lot of work to guarantee a certain amount of time to get through the process it isn't a lot of work to incentivize certain industries right all of those things can produce results and it's really up to your council's sort of policy intent or desire to to pick one of those things up and run a really tangible example of the implications of this just to kind of hit cadence's point a little bit harder I mean beneficial state bank is no longer on 4th street right Tom Steyer owns that bank and it was too expensive for him to get the the branch up and running and so they started off in a whole and they're no longer here in that in that process was we want as our sign to paint a mural on the side of our building that includes our logo but is essentially public art and that took months and months and months and months to to get done and the branch started off in a hole and make it back out of that there's a cannabis shop that is I don't know the exact resolution of it today but has needed a sign on its front right for good reason good policy reason behind having a sign on a cannabis shop totally get it it's been nearly a year to get approval of that sign so again a business that has that is paying staff paying rents paying taxes during that entire time without any ability to generate revenue if we make it very quick and and as minimally expensive as possible that is not a lot of work to develop a policy around that and I'd be happy to volunteer chamber resources to go out and do a scan of other jurisdictions to provide an array of options but fundamentally it is how expensive is it hard cost to get through the process and how long is it going to take to get through the process and if you can minimize both of those things the city will end up maximizing its revenue on the back end I appreciate that thanks thanks I was just going to add in some other ideas that I saw when I was researching tenant improvement and facade improvement grant programs in other cities and I know that that's not the entirety of this conversation the grant program component of it but some of the things that other places are doing to help mitigate some of the challenges that small businesses might have with completing a project on their site our city is actually hiring or having a pre-approved list of contractors either design professionals contractors sign companies or or other professionals needed to do the work so that the businesses don't have to go find them and they can just pick from a group list of businesses or services and then those people are kind of already they already know the city's process they already know the cost they can ease navigate that for the business I think that that's something else we hear is just that it's so hard to navigate the process sometimes and so if there's someone who's kind of working for you on your behalf who's familiar with that process that that can help so some of do include as a part of the grant any other question John or Victoria John there we go I have a question and then a comment the question do we do we use exit interviews outside of our process after someone has gone through it to see what was the most painful and what worked really well because it covers a number of different could potentially deal the number of different departments so but at the end of the day after the person acquires their permit assuming that they go through the whole process they must have some opinions on what worked and what didn't work and I'm wondering if we actually have any if we do any exit interviews to our permit the people to come in looking for permits or or whatever you know if it's requiring staff time what was that how was that experience you know getting getting real data on on the experience of those coming into city halls I'm curious as to we whether we have any kind of the exit interviews and secondly on the parking issue our new technologies in the garages should I would think would be able to avail themselves of what is called nesting and the rather empty top floors of almost every garage in the in the downtown I don't think we have any full top floor parking that is not being utilized and I would think that we could probably come up with a program it's always been technology and difficulty in getting a nesting program but now with our with our new equipment in the garages at least those garages that are exercising that new equipment I would think we would be able to come up with a pretty simple program for for discounted parking permits so that's just that's a that's just a comment yes my question has to do with so we got some some good suggestions from cadence and Peter and some of them require staff time like the sign policy and approval and permitting and so forth I mean and some of them require counsel to invest in things like choosing to reduce fees or or license taxes or whatever but when it comes to the staff time request or the things that would move things faster through is this a matter of coming to counsel and asking for additional staff resources or is this a matter of coming to us and asking for resources to contract out these services if we were to want to create like let's say like a time certain program like if you apply for your business and you do everything that's on this checklist this is how long it will take and this is our commitment to you so if I may because of the council thank you the resources that we need to make some of this happen have already been provided by council through their actions your actions during the budget process and before the official budget process in other words resources are allocated one of the one of the issues we faced is through I think most of us have heard in the world it's not only a supply chain issue it's a resource staffing talent pool issue my department my my division was authorized a plan reviewer in I believe February or March of this year and that person starts the 22nd of August so in in in my humble opinion we're already council is already taking steps to address some of these time issues and I I can first hand tell you that over the last two years time in permit processing has been horrid some of the horror stories that both hannison and peter have heard they're true to get in I won't focus too much on signs but say your tenant improvements you may have heard some of the horror stories about the mass exodus in fire prevention we had one of our key members left in that entire division that's a key element of these tenant improvements you heard the horror stories of a mass exodus of planners we now have four brand new planners on board they all walked into door about the same time so they're all about a month in so again another resource that we've been allocated to to address these issues water engineering another key element of these again retirements exit promotions private side recruitments again that division has been decimated again I just met their newest member who's been on board a week and a half that again addresses the time issue there was a period pre coded that we would have regularly in I won't go too far in depth here the biggest issue we have right now with with plan reviews for building permits is what I call our queue there are so many things in our queue that are awaiting our review something new comes in it goes to the bottom of the queue pre-covid we were able to execute in my estimation 30 to 40 percent of all permits that were issued through the city where someone walked in did their thing and walked out with their permit now 95 plus percent of every permit application goes in the queue so our resources that we now are getting and I'm executing some initiatives for some solar permitting things like that that are going to take these things back out of the queue the over-the-counter takes it out of the queue so if we can get those first out of the queue and handle them in a relatively short time say a week or less those those are things that benefit that type of project say the over-the-counter type of tenant improvement or others then with a queue much shorter that in my estimation we should be able to reduce by 30 to 40 percent of the queue it then takes those tenant improvements that you cannot do over the counter and there's there's a threshold that we have to really be reasonable about on what has to go in the queue and has to be reviewed by these three departments or more and they just take too much time my rule of thumb is if we can execute it in 30 minutes and do a full review between 20 and 30 minutes we should be able to do that over the counter when we start getting into heavy elements of accessibility and structural it just we can't allocate that resource where it needs to go elsewhere so to the question what what can we do from the council's perspective you've already done an awful lot we're putting the pieces of the puzzle in place as we speak and then there's the reality of the world these new planners that we have on board most of them are fresh out of college so do they have planning experience no do they have degrees that affect their ability in planning absolutely yes they're they're here and they're all bright and it's amazing to feel the energy from these folks but again the pieces are in place to the most part I hate to say this give us a chance to get in an operation we we still don't have the full team I'm excited to say that my division is full for only the second time in 10 years the people are still not here yet so again that's where we're at we're really at a good jumping off point and in my opinion fire has resources now they've got some staff positions filled they do have much like council member Fleming indicated professional services that they leverage as well so that combination fire is really doing well where honestly and and chief lo and fo and I will joke and admit it that his his department was the delay for many of these horror stories we're hearing for the last year and a half two years it took four months to get a fairly simple ti permit plan check to fire because of their resource so again too much of a long story but we are going in the right direction and I'm confident that we're going to get to a point where we're doing over-the-counter plan reviews in some fashion still electronically still using that convenience and not reproduction of paper you know helping you know save resources but within a reasonable time frame a week or less is really my root my initial goal and then finding a way to get that that over-the-counter next day and I would agree I think that right now we have the council has given us the resources we need I think it's that next step so we have to get them up and running I think in combination with also the approval to move forward on the development review the development fee schedule study that's going forward and the development review services strategic plan I think the next step that I got out of this conversation though is one let's focus it on the downtown as a pilot we could look at what opportunities exist in the downtown but I think the next steps are discussing with Alan Alton and his team to understand like what the average business taxes are for what sectors of businesses in the downtown so we can look at office retailer and restaurant I think office is interesting because that's like restaurants are turning over they might not be successful or for the individuals it might be difficult than a heartbreak if it doesn't work or if it does work right on retail it's had a they've had a hard couple of years less in terms of the brick and mortar less assistance in some ways that tends to be very difficult the trajectory of retail is changing a little bit so we can look at that but office becomes a very interesting thing those people coming downtown to to eat and shop at those places and I think talking with Alan to dig deeper on the the business taxes by sector in the downtown would be interesting and then to understand also with his team parking opportunities around businesses so again if we're looking at downtown a downtown pilot for incentive potential incentives we I think at this point we need to be business sector specific because it's not just the cost of the resource or staffing time because I think we can find ways either through our partnerships with the chamber which we're doing or others but it is also the fiscal impact of incentives and how do you not negatively affect the health and welfare of the parking district for example so how do we see not just the fiscal impact but the revenue potential if we're looking at a fiscal impact and I think what I got from this is that we've got a pathway to look at that I also noted that liquor license library I mean it's an interesting concept those are the things you don't see other places I don't know exactly what that might look like but we can totally take a look at that and then the other thing that I want to say is also digging deeper with Jesse on the over the counter process once he gets his staffing stabilized again to see an overlay of the downtown what's possible do we even need to address some of these things he came up yesterday and we were talking about this with some interesting ideas like pre applications for ten improvements for certain kinds of businesses I mean we might be able to do something where you take like once a month or something like this we have like an open process where people can come in and talk to us so that we're going to them in an open forum and can answer any sort of question so we can look at programs like that and then just to finalize this if there aren't any other questions and then to go to public comment is I noted the exit interview permit question which is interesting but the other pieces if we pilot something in the downtown what's interesting to me is other locations to incentivize additional neighbor commercial nodes in neighborhoods and they might be different business specific incentives based on these so I know that that as well go ahead Peter and then I'll come back to Victoria I just wanted to pick up on that thought from rice this is another area that I would love to partner and share the chamber's resources to try to accomplish we need to increase wages in Santa Rosa and Sonoma County in our employment base and the real movement on that isn't through regulation it's through bringing in new high paying jobs and so I think that we can find industries we want to encourage either that are existing or new to Santa Rosa and Sonoma County identify those areas where you want some economic development and investment and then go through a similar process like this identifying what would be attractive to bring up employment from you know the South Bay East Bay Peninsula where an employment base may already be here or be attractive but is forced to commute out of Sonoma County or leave Sonoma County to be closer to a job we can bring those folks back bring those wages back bring that economic vitality back and make Santa Rosa a more a stronger economic force and and things that align with councils already stated priorities right I'm thinking about green technology right and advancements in that sector for example so I welcome our resources to to help further that I appreciate that Peter go to Victoria thank you and thank you for your response Jesse to my last question I and for everybody else's input I wanted to go back one to one thing which is that you know it sounds like there's two pieces that hold things up from a staff resource time things that are legally required to be checked off by staff you know engineering things fire things water things and then things that are because because we say so like sign signage and stuff I'm guessing there's no state law that says we have to have a plan checker sign off I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile and perhaps it wouldn't say that much time to bifurcate those two things and turn the the ones that are within our purview into ask forgiveness rather than permission situations so that we could put out a set of standards and say you know at some point we'll come and review this but you know make it within these standards and if you don't run afoul of them then there's no problem you know we and then that way you're not held up on that one particular thing because I hate to hear of a business I imagine it's not the only reason they go under but I hate to hear of a business going under for something like you know a sign hold up I'd just be interested to hear it if that's would be more burdensome to staff than just getting more people on board or or not yeah just a little bit of history that I learned even well established before I came here the I learned quickly the sign ordinance when I started here and it's been redone since my time here was extremely complicated and still is and signage historically through the city of Santa Rosa I had a former technician who worked here for 43 years signs have been a point of contention that is unimaginable to this group that hasn't been dealing with kind of the downtown for more than 10 to 15 years therefore this sign ordinance is where it is so just looking back in history that just to put a little information into the comment that's that's knowledge only that I had heard and we do get quite a few complaints about signs that are actually legal so that's where some of the history came from on the side so just just food for thought on the the sign and I was actually eating the pudding so to speak when you were saying meet these parameters put up your sign but for me what does that look like a year and a half to two years down the road when I still have the same code enforcement staff that can't keep up looking at that historically thank you and that that is helpful I can only imagine how complicated it gets but I'm just and you don't have to answer it now but just putting it out there that there may be other things that are non-essential for us to be checking over that we could put out standards for and then you know if if it becomes a problem later on we could deal with it and then there's fewer things that people need to wait for staff to sign off for fewer resort resource draws on both ends I just note that council member Fleming that's very much along the lines of the notion of self-certification right so if somebody has a paid professional license bonded as insurance as school you know academic training in years in the field for something that is not life safety like a sign makes a heck of a lot of sense right for self-certification where they can say I'm putting my professional reputation that I've met the city's standards on this and and turned it in so that that is I think a great practical example of how that notion of self-certification can play out in real life okay if it's okay for the interest of time I think I've captured things so I think what we'll look at and bring back in the future one is streamlining and incentivizing considerations for businesses it'll be business specific depending on the area but starting with the downtown and then I captured a number of opportunities that will follow up with the chamber Jesse Allen Alton and finance on and then I can begin to sort of frame out an ongoing discussion to try to build up that program or some kind of program and that program will be considering the objectives of the general plan update the economic development strategy placekeeping healthy cities and ventures all in alignment with council goals so I think that this helped me messy conversation helped me kind of figure out what the what the next step down programs might be. All right John do you have another question or can we get a public comment It is a quick question I think it's a quick question. Raisa did you get what you needed as far as recruitment identifying those sectors business sectors that we want to encourage and then how to do that? You know what I did in a roundabout way and I think if we prioritize the downtown it's very specifically office but I think we can get into some more details and look deeper into what that what office businesses look like and then of course we have retail and and restaurants but when we start laying out opportunities in alignment with the equity the priority development areas with the general plan update that's going to look different and that's where I know the chamber and the city have had discussions around high wage industries, green tech, biotech and building out our industry sectors and so we're working in alignment with the chamber and their programs like the SBDC to try to understand those I think that'll have to come in a later date I think I tried to put too much on the plate for today if we focus on downtown we understand a little bit better what that looks like and then the other areas will come at a different time. Thank you because I really love Peter's comment about you know Santa Rosa becoming an economic force and being who we are and where we are and how long we've been working and trying to get there I'm hoping it happens before I'm dead so I just kind of I want to make sure that we're on the right track as far as that kind of recruitment. I mean to be fair the economic update that we get Santa Rosa and Sonoma County has fared better than so many other places and we have a surprisingly because our economy is more diverse than we give a credit for it especially in Santa Rosa we we've done relatively well but we are striving to do so much better. Thank you I appreciate it. All right thanks John let's go to public comments then on this item if you have a comment go ahead hit the raise hand feature. We do have a public comment just one moment while I share the timer actually we have multiple public comments the first will be Gregory Farron. Gregory if you would just confirm your ability to see the screen and introduce yourself. Yes I can see the screen and my name is Gregory Farron I just this has been an interesting conversation I don't usually pay as much attention to the economics of downtown as much as I do the housing but I want to point out that I'm currently working on trying to figure out a way of helping 170 million dollars worth of ARPA to community agencies and ARPA to the county I have a huge list of everybody who got money from either funding source and one of the things some of them need is office space some of them are building programs they don't have room for yet and I want you to be thinking of them I know Peter is because he's got a big piece of it but you know you need to think when you think business nonprofits because for the first time in anybody's memory in the nonprofit world there's an expansion of programs and those programs don't all need office space but they are but some of them do and they don't want to do it chaotically and they don't want to do it you know as sort of the the stepchild of a of an economic subcommittee that you know thinks the only thing that ought to be going downtown is the restaurants so I urge you to look at the list of all of the folks I'll send it to anybody who wants it who got ARPA or PG&E money and you know ask yourself the question of you know do I know these people and are they thinking about trying to find new office space because you may find a lot of them saying yes and not having anybody who helps them thank you. The next speaker will be gig Haidah Mr. Haidah if you'll go ahead and confirm your ability to see the screen and introduce yourself. Yes I see the screen thank you my name is gig Haidah I'm resident of Santa Rosa so yes this has been a quite a complicated discussion and the way I see it there's four kind of issues here for new businesses and the four are number one the time it takes to get started number two the expense it takes to get started number three the ability to grow the business and to you know to make a profit and number four the ability to sustain the business over a long period of time and reap the benefits of all this investment so you are all talking about what the city can do to promote all this which is great but the city is not the only stakeholder all of these are businesses and the chamber is here which is great the chamber supports businesses and so what I'm suggesting is that it's not only the city's responsibility to make all these things happen and to promote good business thriving in Santa Rosa it's also the business's responsibility and the first item when you talk about the time to get started yeah well that is the city staff's responsibility and all the procedures that are necessary and I hear that you know this is quite sophisticated work you need knowledge experience degrees and so on but in every profession there's always some clerical work or some things that can be delegated to someone who doesn't have a degree or a little bit lower position to just help facilitate things as kind of like a power professional or an assistant or something like that so maybe the department can improve its efficiency by bringing in some lower level people to just get some of the work done quicker as far as the expenses to start well you said how people come in thinking oh it's going to cost me 20 30 000 next thing I know it's 200 000 so that's money money banks banks need to be a player the local banks you know if they had a program to say well if you're starting a new business and you're in this phase where you're you're not making any money yet you're just building into it then we can give you a lower rate so we need to banks need to be a player and need to participate maybe at their association meetings or their foundations or however they you know meet or through the chamber then the next part the ability to grow and marketing and all that yeah that's where the chamber comes in but we're also missing out the landlords the landlords are making money on this if they have tenants so they need to be a player and they need to be able to offer lower tenant rates in the beginning when the business is starting up and not have any customers so that's another program again could be supported through the chamber or whatever so I'm just saying diversify the stakeholders banks landlords chamber business as well as the city thanks thank you the next speaker will be Eric will be Eric Frazier Mr Frazier if you confirm your ability to see the timer and please proceed yes I can see it thank you very much thanks for allowing my comments on this item this has been a very interesting conversation for sure and I appreciate a lot of the ideas that have come out of it for instance Peter's idea seconded by Riza of self-certification certainly would help also the idea that John put forward about nesting in the parking structures and of course that should be available to residents that are within say a thousand feet or 2,500 feet as well but make a mistake though that typically when you're engaged in an independent business your foe is government you're working against government excesses fees timelines so on and so forth the idea that government is here to help brings no consolation to growing your business in fact it's usually an obstacle this isn't about the health of businesses or landlords this money that's burning a hole in your pocket really is about building your patronage your political patronage that's why you're so invested in it the it's unfortunate too we see that as being true you don't have to look any further than river it's where for instance where the chamber of commerce probably proclaims that 60,000 people went through the visitor center when it was more like 6000 this is pre-covid of course but if you're a business and you're looking to locate in the railroad square and you're using that fictitious overestimated ridiculous number of 60,000 saying wow look at all the people that are coming through this 500 square foot building then you would say wow I have a lot of people that are going to go to my business or go to my restaurant when of course that's ridiculous and it shouldn't that type of fraud should not be allowed to continue in the and any actor in any part of government when peter talks about chamber money he's talking about tax money that has been siphoned off through the SRT BIA it's about 80 percent of their budget so no I think most businesses that are silent sound mind avoid the chamber like a plague and for good reason the complexities of opening and running a business were well explained by gig for instance and they are the major stakeholder I was curious whether to john's point whether exit interviews are done with businesses that leave the area like for instance it was interesting the person who owns the comic store attributed their access to the screw-ups from the courthouse square reunification he said that when Mendocino Avenue was cut off that it precipitated a drop in this business that was unsustainable I imagine a lot of businesses leave the downtown area because of the screw-ups that have come by way of permitting and economic development not because that they've been there to help those are the those are the words that people really don't want to hear but thank you very much for those nonsense the next speaker will be Mr Charles Evans Mr sorry I apologize Mr Evans you should be able to speak and just confirm your ability to see the screen see the screen I am Charles Evans one other area besides permitting that I think gets in the calculation between time and money and a project moving forward or not moving forward is the line that exists between a permitted use in the zoning and a use that requires a minor use permit and I often have reason to to look at that list in various zoning districts and some of the ones that require a minor use permit really would seem in most cases to to fall within what would otherwise just be a permitted use and why that's important is that if if I in my case I'm talking to a tenant about whether they're going to need to get a minor use permit or or they are a permitted use that that difference is somewhere north of five thousand dollars and somewhere in excess of six months to the timeline to go through that process Jesse correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's sort of the the dynamics of where you fall in that requirement for getting a minor use permit all in addition to everything we've already talked about in terms of getting tenant improvements plans approved and sign ordinance compliance those types of things all added on to that I'd also observe that the one other area where time seems to like get away from things in the building department is when it involves the other departments that hopefully is improving now with what Jesse just told us but you know from my own experience when you have when when fire gets involved because you're putting in fire sprinklers or modifying your system or if public works gets involved because you have to connect your new fire sprinkler system to the public water supply or you need a grease trap in downtown restaurants particularly where you're going to do something in the public right away they all have their own timeline they all have to kind of come back ultimately to a building permit but it could really add up time-wise thank you all right I see no other hands we'll go ahead and bring it back John and Victoria any last minute comments before we go on to the next item no I'm good thank you thanks for the presentation a lot of good information look forward to the future yeah we'll move on to item 3.2 which dovetails nicely with the discussion we've already been having and rice did you want to take it away well that's where we merged it all together so I apologize it's not actually a separate issue I wasn't sure if there was something specific that you wanted to add to it or if it was just sort of the general conversation and topic no we went on from the tenant improvement into the targeted thing and I think again what I got was you know we'll start with downtown we'll look at these things we'll have follow conversations with finance and parking and Jesse and Claire yep that sounds all good to me then so we'll keep moving to item number four departmental report okay yeah so um just wanted to give you a heads up or in this public forum that we have the development fee schedule um study or survey it's either just going out or one out Jesse you might help me on this did it go out or it's going to go out it appears it's going to go out this week we're finalizing it it looks like today okay so what this is is in Jesse don't go away what this is is um had to review the actual cost of services compared with the percent of costs at which services should be charged for the fees so it's a it's a full fee um study um and I think the the benefit or the interest of that um it coincides it's a companion effort with the development review services strategic business plan um and that one is looking to align mission vision and values of the city's development review services team um and to bring transparency and accountability into the process by uh adopting or looking at and eventually adopting performance metrics monitoring and reporting standards and to align strategic investments and improved services so um uh again another thing that's looking to capitalize on um all the other studies that are happening the general plan update etc Jesse do you have anything to add to those two right I will say that this is yet another element that hasn't come up in the discussion about delays and ambiguity for applicants um one of my primary goals going into this fee study is to help simplify our fee structure in our fee listing so to speak our current fee schedule for planning and economic development alone is approximately 60 pages long that's extremely unreasonable uh for not only staff to try and interpret but let alone public who doesn't understand or may not understand the the different moving parts of uh fees for for the services we provide so many of us in pet are engaging with the consultant in targeting that along with what racy explained is true cost of cost of service and yet again hopefully another element that can play into our earlier discussion to simplify and give people more knowledge walking in the door than they would have had ever before so thank you and then the next thing um is uh better one left they chew on is the uh 2023 minimum wage um so it's going from $15.85 to $17.06 so as you recall excuse me it's linked to our uh rate increases that are linked to the bay area cpi um which was 7.6 um for the period of july through june uh and we did not put a cap on it so um to be clear in 2020 the beginning of 2020 um i think it was 2019 it was um $15 2020 we raised it the cpi was 1.3 it went to 1520 in 2021 the cpi was 4.3 it went to 1585 and then now uh it's 7.6 and we're jumping up to $17.06 just um for reference last year was interesting going from 1520 to 1585 someone internally made the passing comment that that's a huge increase and this how our business is going to be able to sustain it we actually got no complaints for the first time ever uh since we started this on what the wage increase was i don't know what to predict this year but my understanding at the minimum wage very few people are paying minimum wage uh who would generally pay minimum wage pay minimum wage the exception of course is uh uh that i know of for fact um entry-level positions at the city for our seasonal employees um the city has been uh the appropriate departments have been notified um and they are building that into their budget um and then coincidentally the state did put a cap on theirs but if the cpi um was higher than i don't remember what i think was 3.5 then it would um it would uh i think their rates increase a little bit anyway um state minimum wage is 1550 or will be 1550 Peter did i get that wrong no i think you're right i was just gonna add uh a contextual point as well the i think the the difficulty for businesses is coming in not with that not with the minimum wage rate right because i think you're right on the way that the labor market is right now wages are are higher uh we'll see if that continues but that's what it is now the difficulty comes from uh as you get into the differentiation between an hourly and a salary employee and that uh that it's a you know it's a compaction but it's uh yeah so it's a percentage above that hourly rate turns you know and you and you start to see an increase in salary employee wages as well and again higher wages is good just generally speaking i'm not arguing against that uh but it becomes very difficult to track at that level particularly when um you know a position ought to be one or the other right and so your employer is faced with dropping a wage a salary of somebody to make that person hourly now versus keeping them at a salary position and it gets even more nuanced because you can't do that arbitrarily based on california labor code and so um the complexity isn't just with the with the increase yeah hundred percent and the interesting we get a few questions about that but um still have not received a lot of complaints about it at least it sounds like they might be going through the channel and um those were the only updates that i had uh just in terms of the primary board john or victoria any question no new questions thank you um i have a question i don't know if this is the appropriate place um to the mayor um would it be possible on future agendas to have um a future agenda item at the end of the meeting oh i think we have oh you know what i'm meant to have it and i would like it and if we can include that in the department of force that would be helpful i think um we meant to have that added in somehow if i dropped that'd be wonderful thank you this is great yeah all right let's go to public comment on departmental reports i see no raised hands at this time okay good bring it back any last comments for you sir um no but if you have any um request for um future agenda items i would love to take it um i have one that i can share but um i'd love to hear yours no victoria oh no i just generally speaking sometimes things come up um and i saw that we didn't have one today and was hoping that in the future we could have them it wasn't a problem for today yeah okay yeah we um we've added it back on it just i don't know why it wasn't on today but um yes um we will have that and i can say just to finish up the department report because i can add this under that um i had a very good discussion with bay atreus on this topic on um vibrancy and versus a healthy city and so we'll incorporate this in the future agenda item as well um related to this discussion today all right john thanks mayor a quick question right you said um and this is actually it's downtown and it's also economic development um could we get and i'm not sure which subcommittee it's going should be living and maybe both an update on the parklets um program where they're who's taking advantage of it what's the what's the success rate i guess is what i really what i'm looking for and where where we stand with that topic okay um yeah we'll put that on one of the agenda okay thank you okay uh with that i'll say thank you and we'll go ahead and adjourn today's meeting and i'll see you all at the council meeting later thanks so much