 Gina, that is my parent's fault. If you ever meet them, feel free to thank them profusely. I work with the university outreach team at Red Hat and I'm gonna tell you a little bit about what we do and what we've learned. So the university outreach team at Red Hat is charged with helping university students do more free and open source software. Which is fantastic, we actually don't do recruiting. There's another team at Red Hat that does that, thankfully. Our team, our goal is just to increase the number of people who know and love open source. So Tom and I have spent a lot of time canvassing this great nation of ours. Cue small patriotic flags waving. This path I've drawn is not completely accurate, mostly due to my lack of facility with Libre Office. But we've been to a lot of schools, more than 25 of them. And we're not intentionally skipping the middle, that we just sort of ended up skipping the middle. For the most part, when we talk to students at the undergraduate level about open source and we say, you know, do you know what open source is? We get a look like this. This is a mystery to us. How can this possibly be the case? Open source is huge, right? Your line is, how huge is it? One, two, three. There you go. So these statistics of the 2015 Black Duck Survey, Future of Open Source, it's so huge. Nearly 80% of the companies that run all are part of their operations on FOSS. Fewer than 3% use no FOSS at all. 64% of companies participate in FOSS projects. 50% have more than half their employees working on FOSS projects that are doing development. And 88% expect to increase their contributions to FOSS. So given this, it's clear that we care about free and open source. So why aren't universities teaching it, right? There's a whole lot of variables involved. And I think it's important that we, as community members, understand these variables so that we can find the most appropriate and the most effective ways to get open source into university classrooms. So I'll take a look at some of those variables. So this is just a little quiz. It's all about schools, so quizzes are appropriate. Raise your hand if you think it's relatively easy for a university instructor to teach a new class. The answer is a big fat fuzzy, no. And this is admittedly school-specific. In general, though, it's not very easy to add a class. And I've actually spoken with a lot of people in open source communities, and this surprises them. They think a teacher can just up and teach a seminar if they want. But the reasons why it's hard for a teacher to add a new class include, that are not limited to, the fact that the department, either computer science or software engineering, has to have a curriculum that hangs together from end to end and makes sense for a student to go through. A random class in some specific thing, as cool as it might be, may not make sense as part of a degree program. And schools market themselves as having specialties. This is where you'll learn all the great big data stuff. Okay, we're just gonna stick an open source class in there. That's not gonna fit their marketing message or their specialization. Secondly, schools, just like everybody else, have a limited resource budget, both in terms of physical resources, like classroom space and the number of hours available to slot classes into those classrooms, and in terms of budget and salaries. They have X number of teachers and Y number of students. Something has to give in order to add a new class. And in fact, just this past week, I was talking to a professor at a school that's actually very interested in doing open source. They are already so stretched that they just don't have the extra manpower to give someone an additional class on top of their existing course load. Secondly, or thirdly rather, adding a new course takes time. And often the process is not well documented and you kind of have to figure it out as you go along. So again, hard to change the curriculum and yet student interest is not mapping to curriculum. How do we know that? This is back two years ago now. Karen Perneserio, Perneserio, oh, I can't pronounce that. She's the director of Web IT Strategy at SUNY New York, at SUNY Soderbrook. And she said that incoming students are expecting to see open source in their classrooms, in their curriculum. Great, so open hatch, raise your hand if you've heard of it. Second of background for those of you who haven't. Open hatch is a nonprofit dedicated to matching prospective open source contributors with communities. And one of the things they do is called open source comes to campus. It's a workshop where one or two people go on to a campus and they teach kind of everything you need to know to start contributing to a community, including things like GitHub and also the culture. So back in May 2014, open hatch came to SUNY Soderbrook and this engagement like most of the ones that open hatch comes to campus has done was actually driven by students, small handful of very engaged students. And it was really successful. 90 students signed up of that, 75 attended as such a really good response rate for students. When Falls 2014 came around, the instructors wanted to do another follow-up event but they had trouble finding enough mentors. And now two years later, as far as we know, SUNY Soderbrook does not actually offer open source as part of its curriculum. Furthermore, and this is really unfortunate and sad from my perspective, open hatch at this point in time doesn't have any events scheduled and they're trying to figure out where they're going with life. We are hoping that that will be continuing on and doing more things because what they do is fantastic. So here's a clear case where there was student interest, students came in and said, we wanna do open source, we'll have this workshop come in and when it came time to come around again and they couldn't find enough mentors in the department to carry it through. And now it's not happening and yet students want it. Okay, you can feel free to keep track of your own scores. I think there are six questions, so this is number two. Raise your hand if you think it is a best practice to teach open source. Ah, but the survey says, no. The reason for this, and at the college level, at the university level, there are no formal guidelines that a university must follow around curriculum. However, there is the Association of Computing Machinery and they do publish a set of guidelines that say this is what we think you should teach if you're teaching computer science. It is the only set of guidelines, ergo. It's the one that schools use. So in 2013, the ACM released a new curriculum guideline for computer science. The one before that was back in 2001. So this doesn't come out really frequently and this guide is a joint effort between the ACM and the IEEE to set the standards for what a degree in computer science means. Here's what it looks like. It's a 518 page document. I have spent quality time with this document. There are 18 major knowledge areas. One of those knowledge areas is called Social Issues and Professional Practice. Here after known as SIP. There are 10 topics within SIP. One of those is intellectual property. Within intellectual property, there are seven tier one subtopics and two elective subtopics. Tier one subtopics are ones that schools should probably consider covering. Electives are like, yeah, sure, if you've got time. One of those two elective subtopics is called Foundations of the Open Source Movement. So in all of those 518 pages, open source, the words open source appear twice in the curriculum recommendations. This is 2013. This is the most recent set of guidelines. They come out on average once every 12 years. And you can see just how granular this gets. If we have time at the end, I'll talk a little bit more about why this is the way it is. The words open source appear actually a total of 10 times in the 518 pages because along with the recommendations around curriculum, there are also sample courses from colleges. So for example, in Miami University, in their CSE 262 class, Technology, Ethics, and Global Society mentions open source as the one elective they don't teach in the intellectual property topic. So that's two of those 10 references right there. A third one, Ann Arendelle Community College in Arnold, Maryland mentioned it in their CS 194 class, Ethics and the Information Age as an alternative to the property model. So eight of the, or nine rather of those 10 references are in descriptions of courses and the majority of those are, yeah, we don't really go over that. Okay, how you doing on the quiz so far? You teach. Next question, getting your research published in a journal or presented at a conference matters if you're trying to get tenure. Raise your hand if you think so. Yes! This is mostly to see if you're paying attention. So can your track professors need to attract grant funding and present work at noteworthy conferences? Next question, raise your hand if you think that there are conferences and journals that these professors can publish their open source related work in. Y'all are getting better at this. And this is kind of frustrating because CS and SE instructors who are interested in that intersection of teaching and open source are in a really weird kind of stuck in the middle place. CS and SE journals, technical journals aren't particularly interested in teaching or pedagogy for the most part. So if your passion is teaching open source, they're not gonna love your paper about how you can use open source to teach computer science. On the other hand, the large conference, the largest conference for computer science educators, which is SIGCY, the special interest group for computer science education, still doesn't have an open source track, which given the ACM recommendations shouldn't be a huge surprise. So if in order to get tenure, you need to publish and or be presented or present at noteworthy conferences and yet there are no publications that are targeted at what you do nor conferences that are aimed at what you do. This is a hard intersection. Raise your hand if you think that many or most computer science and software engineering instructors have experience with open source. No. So why? There are a bunch of reasons behind this, but the biggest ones are the tenure process itself doesn't leave a lot of time for trying new things in the classroom. When you were trying for tenure, you were trying not to get knocked out of the ballpark and that means doing what the department chair wants you to do, not raising a stink and keeping on the path. And it's also a very risk averse climate because people don't wanna jeopardize their chances. Why else might not our instructors at the university level have experience with open source? Open source is really easy, right? That's my sarcasm tag. They're not, they're large, they're complex, they're sometimes not incredibly well documented and that makes them really hard to understand. Last question, I think, might be one more. Raise your hand if you think that open source and academia run on similar timelines. You are getting better. Academia is so slow, babe. I keep discovering this myself when I go to think about submitting something for an academic conference like 6C and I realized the deadline was five months ago because our deadlines are, you know, five, six, maybe seven months out from the conference. Their deadlines are a year out from the conference. So everything there is so much slower than we're accustomed to. To look at an actual example, here's some typical timelines. The Fedora project releases on a six month cycle, has a year long planning cycle and executes on a six to 12 month cycle. Academia has a one to four year lease cycle. Two to five year planning cycle. So you're planning, you know, what courses you're gonna offer two to five plus years out. Execution time, four years. It takes eight, four years to get a student through your system. Maybe more if they're on the five plus year plan. Oh, I did lie. There's a bonus question. Raise your hand if you think it's a-okay for an instructor to admit that they don't know what's going on because that was kind of a cheap trick. It should be perfectly fine for an instructor to say, you know what, that's a great question. I don't know. The way that we have set up the model of being a professor, at least here in the United States, is that instructors are expected to know everything. And that is not only from the student point of view, but also from the university point of view. So if a professor is gonna have someone sit in their class to evaluate their teaching, they're gonna feel really awkward and uncomfortable if a student asks a question that they don't know the answer to. I can speak to this personally. I got my teacher certification for high school science. For all high school science. So as an undergraduate, I got a bachelor's in science and zoology and my teacher certification. When I graduated, I started applying for teaching jobs. The first offer I received was a physics teaching position for a high school in Apomar, North Carolina, which I was certified to teach. And quite frankly, in retrospect, I probably would have been fantastic at. I knew plenty enough physics to teach that class and being able to say, let's work through this together because I know how to figure things out would have been great for the students. I could not do that because it takes a great deal of sureness in yourself and confidence to be able to say, I don't know, let's figure that out. So when we work with teachers, one of the things that we emphasize over and over with them is that when your students walk out the door, almost immediately everything you learn is outdated. And they're gonna walk onto a project where the person who knows the answer has just gone on vacation or the comments are wrong or fill in the blank here. The best thing you can do for your students is to model uncertainty. To show them that it's okay not to know and to show them smart ways of asking questions to find out. That is the hardest thing for the teachers that we work with to understand and to accept. And if we have time, I can talk a little bit more about that. So, sorry for the downer. That's like a great big long list of here's all the stuff that didn't work. Maybe that'll help. That's my puppy. He's a Pomeranian. He's really, really cute. Now he's cheered up, right? Okay, so what can we do? And some of this you'll have heard from Spot if you were in that talk. It's not a total overlap though. So one thing we can do, we as community members can do is we support programs that teach instructors how to teach open source. And even though I do not have my braces in, I am glad I'm only saying that once because that is a mouthful. Given the issues that we know exist when instructors try to create net new courses, we are working with a model that incorporates open source into the existing CS track. So rather than students working on whatever blob of code the teacher has had sitting on a server in the back of their classroom for five years or 10 years or more, we think that students would be better served by learning the same principles but in communities working on real projects. This is hard. This is very new for teachers and they run up against all of those insecurities about I don't know how to do this. I don't know all the answers that we just talked about but POSSI is a program that teaches them how to do this. So POSSI is jointly supported by Red Hat and a grant from the NSF. It's designed to help teachers. Oh, I'm gonna have to say it again. Darn. Help teachers learn how to teach open source. Oh, it's better that time I said learn not teach. It provides a framework for introducing open source into existing CS classes and it's participative. So the teachers themselves learn in an online community and then they come together for a three-day workshop and put all of this into practice. And it's led by professors who are actually very passionate about teaching open source. So it's a great way to give teachers a foothold into this universe that they're really uncomfortable with. And if you know of a teacher who might be interested in doing this because it's an NSF and Red Hat sponsor project, it is no cost for teachers who are accepted to the program which is really nice. Teaching open source is a website where we're collecting resources and materials. It will, if all things go to plan, evolve into a community where teachers can come together to ask questions of each other and support each other in teaching open source. And we are redoing this idea even as we speak. And this is actually one of the coolest things to me. FosterServe is the current repository for most of the materials that we've been creating around teaching open source. And this is actually an exercise I wrote around bug gardening, bug grooming, you call it whatever. These are neat because they're written for teachers. So they've got all the things that a teacher would expect to have, including what are the prerequisite knowledge coming into this? What are your learning objectives? What should a student be able to do or know upon completing this activity? And then it's got what the activity is itself. And these are lab style activities. They're things you go and do. And then at the end, there's a rubric. So we even give teachers, this is what you should look for when you're grading this activity. And the more of these we can develop, the better off teachers are, because again, this is where they struggle. Along with the, what am I supposed to do if a student asks a question, and I don't know the answer, the second most common question that we get when we run posse workshops, how do you grade something if it's collaborative? And these rubrics for these exercises help answer that question. What do you look for? How do you grade something where, for example, if they're participating in a community, their patch may not be accepted. So you can't grade them on, was your pull request accepted? You're grading them on what was the process like? Did you learn to work with the community? How do you grade someone on how well they collaborated? And so this framework has not only the lab itself, but the pedagogical, I love that word, underpinning for the teachers to teach. If you're in Tom's session, you heard this. Very, very few schools teach source control at all. We were at SIGC, we did a birds of the feather about teaching open source last year, and we asked, okay, how many teachers here teach open source? There were like two people who raised their hand, and one of them was at the master's level. Students, if students are not learning, did I say open source, I meant GitHub. If students are not learning source control, there's no way that they're gonna be able to do open source. There's just no way. So the neat thing is if you expose students early to source control, the collaboration thing just makes sense to them. And the experience we have at RIT is when they shifted their GitHub to freshman year to the basically CS1 class, the students by the time the instructor started talking about how do you collaborate? What does community mean? What is open source? The students kind of said, yeah, we figured that out already, we knew this was coming. Because GitHub makes it obvious, it makes it so easy and painless to collaborate that people begin to see the principles before they're ever taught the principles, and that's the best kind of experiential learning there is. What can you do as community members? If you work for a company that hires people, ask your recruiters to look for GitHub on the resume. Say we're at the ask your recruiters to ask students for their GitHub repository. This happens some already, but not nearly as often as we'd like. And the more companies that start asking for it, the more demands they'll be for teachers to teach it. What else can you do? Let us, me, Tom, although he's down on a flight, maybe back to the East Coast, know if you're interested in open source in higher education. If you are on a project and you're willing to work with an instructor, let me know. In the past, we found that a lot of projects were doing outreach, but they're doing it straight to students, and that's good. But if you work with professors, it becomes a whole lot more replicable. You teach one professor how to work in your project. They bring basically group after group after group of students through, and in fact, several of the POSSI professors we're working with are now the maintainers of various open source projects. Heidi Ellis, who is one of the main professors in POSSI, she is one of the maintainers of the Genome Mousetrap software, which is accessibility software for eye tracking because she brings her class through it every single semester, and the more time she spent with it, the more it made sense for her to become a maintainer on it. Secondly, help with the curricular materials. I just showed you one of them, the bug grooming. If you have materials and you think that they would be useful, please let me know. Even if you don't have the background to be able to create a pedagogical framework, we can help you with that. If you've got things that teach people how to do open source related processes, or things that teach people how to do CS related things, but using open source, also good. Reach out to your local schools, to the professors in your local schools. You can contact, we have been amazed at the number of college level, university level people who are begging us to come speak about open source at their classes, because they haven't got the expertise. And to be able to have someone in from industry or a project to talk about how open source works, that's a fantastic thing. They love it. Sponsor and mentor students, so that's money, of course. You can sponsor a project, you can give money to a hackathon, the volunteer time. So, there's a hackathon called Pearl Hacks at UNC. Chapel, which is near where I live, and it's an all women's hackathon, and I volunteered every year. They've had it, I think this is, we're going on year three now. And I go, and even though I am not a massively skilled coder, I think it's important for me to go and be there and speak to students about what I do know, which is creating websites, and open source. Do that. Volunteer, to be at a hackathon, be a mentor. How do you find schools to work with? Or how, when you go and contact the school, do you find the right angle to talk to them about? Look at what they're doing anyway. If they are a huge gaming school, talk to them about open source games. If they're a great big open source hardware school, talk to them about open source hardware. If they're into security, talk to them about open source security. If you work with them on the programs they already care about, that they already are promoting as their big wins, and insert open source there, that open source culture, principles, those will carry into other disciplines. Help share the successes. There aren't enough of them yet, but the more we talk about them, the more we say this can work. There are teachers who are successfully incorporating open source into their classrooms. There are successful industry university partnerships. There's a minor in free and open source at RIT. The more we do that, the more it will happen. And encourage academia to be more transparent. This is hard. Academia is very bound to traditional publishers and traditional publishers, almost by definition, don't fall in the fee and transparent. There is some movement there. It's slow, but a lot of, not a lot. Many, some, some, some. Universities are beginning to say we're down with open access, at least, which is a start, and saying that any research that's done at our university will be published under an open access license. And if the university itself says that if research happens on our campus, the research will be accessible, that's a door in to the ideas around open research, open innovation, and open source. And we found, working with both UNC and Duke, that once they start thinking about transparency and knowledge sharing, the conversation around open source makes a lot of sense. I feel like I shouldn't really have to say this one, but if we partner, we will do better. And we get really siloed. There are very few educators at this conference. I see a couple that makes me happy. There are very few industry people at SIGCY. It's, we need to do better. We need to create more partnerships. You can't, even if IT, there is an ID department at a university, and there always is. We have to treat them more, we have to treat them as more than a sales lead. We have to treat them as a partner. It's great if we can get open source products in there and that they want to subscribe to our things, but it's just as important that we grow that open source ocean. And if we engage with students and faculty, the potential is so much greater for all of us. And we see this. We are, I believe, beginning to really see several universities start to think in the same direction around the combination of open data, open networking, open source development, and how all of this can work together and in partnership with industry to create programs that makes sense, that bring students out with the skills they need. Cross fingers knock wood, it'll happen. So that's where we are right now. Both the, what makes it difficult and what you can do. I have some bonus slides if you're interested. I'll just have time for questions. So take your pick, question. That's a great question as a question. I could probably turn this on and pass it around here. Can I have a mic runner? Mic runner, who wants to exercise this? Yeah, yay. The question was, what about the for-profit sector, the code camps, and that kind of thing. It's interesting you mentioned that because the Iron Yard is a code camp that's based in Durham and they're opening an office near Red Hat and Raleigh and we've actually been working with them because they are now teaching Python. And I have a meeting set up with them I think in another week and a half to talk about how we can get more open source culture and principles into the open source they were already teaching through the open source. So I think there's just as much room for it in that space as there is in both the public university and private university space. Might have a power switch. So the question was, what about the more technical end of the education? And we don't discriminate. If there's a teacher who wants to do open source I say CS and SC because they're abbreviations that make sense to most people. IT programs are doing open source and if there's a program that can work open source principles and as Tom mentioned in his talk, long past are the days where someone can be a sys admin and not know a lot of code. DevOps is making that a history thing. So the point at which you are developing tools to help support your systems. You're fool if you're not contributing those into your upstream community. To also help your stuff keep in sync with the things you were using. So I think it makes perfect sense to do it in those tracks as well. You talked a lot about having teachers and educating teachers about obviously open source and everything. Are you guys doing anything as far as TAs because at a lot of schools the TA or in lab session is actually where students might have more of an opportunity to learn this stuff? That is a really good point and we are not directly addressing TAs yet. And it's perhaps something we should add into the mix. The challenge we would have, which we could address if there were funding dropping out of the sky magically, the challenge is that the policy program is funded with an NSF grant that specifically restricts it to instructors. So if we can find a way around that. So find me afterwards because if there are, is there like a league of TAs? So, okay, so I'm a student at USC. And probably if you ask the USC professor, they would say that they don't, so we learn get, but a USC professor doesn't really teach it. It's actually taught in lab sessions by the TAs. So I can definitely talk to you about that. It's just because it actually was implemented by someone who no longer is at the university as a PhD student, but now we're still using it because it's a really great system and get works really well for grading. But yeah, I can tell you a little bit more about how it works at USC. That'd be great. And if we could find like the league of TAs, to sort of reach all of them at once. I would get master's students, but yes. Great, thank you. We have very little at the K-12, not because we don't want to do K-12, but because, but because most schools at the primary level are really underfunded. And you've got one staff member who does all the IT stuff. Any of you guys who do K-12 teaching, you know it is all about the test right now and jamming everything in for the end of your test and several of my friends who are elementary, secondary, high school teachers are just furious because they have lost, they feel like they have lost control of their classroom at this point in time. So there's not a lot of room to put things into the curriculum. Stranger danger, it's very, I have left trouble than Tom walking into a classroom to talk to a bunch of students, but it is hard. There's a many schools that have policies that you don't get to go interact with students unless you're a known quantity, unless you're a parent of. And again, I have it easier than Tom because I'm a woman and I am less stranger in danger. And programming is not in the common core and it's also not hard at all. And there are, if you take, for every one college or university in the United States, there are how many primary and secondary schools? So we're, with a very limited resource pool, we are right now focusing our efforts on where we feel like we can make a difference which is at the college level where there's already focus on IT, on engineering, on computer science. Usually it's not the budget that's the big road block, it's things like how do you change the curriculum? How do you get teachers the right knowledge to be able to do this? And at the university level, they are actively courting industry participation. They want to see, you know, big company X and this university work together to produce this blank. Elementary, secondary schools don't really care about that at all. Does that answer your question? Yeah, it's not that we don't want to. There's one back here and then up here. The K through 12 actually is looking at colleges and these, you know, their graduation requirements at LAUSD is that they qualify to go to college. So maybe getting the colleges as part of their recruitment and career path to work with the high schools, because now the high schools are looking at doing the middle schools and lower in terms of their overall. So it's like teaching the teachers and the teachers teaching the students and the students becoming the teachers. So it's like train the trainer type thing, but having the K through 20 as the focus and having it, if you have the best success, since you have the best success at the higher ed, but give them a tool for actually developing communication and, you know, relationship, and a lot of them do it already. So it's just kind of getting, having the IT be a thread that they look at, because then they'll say, hey, we're recruiting when we were building a relationship so that these students will come here and be part of our university or college community. Right, and I think part of, it's hard to say to a university, you need to have this as part of your entrance, especially around open source. Let's take computer programming out as a whole out of the picture, just look at open source. It's hard to say to a university, you should really be looking for students with some open source experience as an incoming freshman in order to put pressure on them to put pressure on when we know what the ACM curriculum guidelines look like. And the ACM curriculum guidelines, I actually know one of the people who's on that body, and he's an open source guy, and he did the best he possibly could. That's why it's in this one at all. It wasn't in the last one, even even a little bit. And I'm like, so what's going on? Because open source is huge. Doesn't everybody know this? And the reality is that computer science has gotten so huge and so specialized that when I looked through it, I admit I did not find enormous places where oh sure, let's just not teach data structures. Put some open source in there. It's just there's so much to teach right now that open source is kind of shoehorned in there. And the curriculum guideline itself has gotten enormous. We are specialized. You know, if you go back when I started, my background after teaching high school and before doing this, I did web strategy for 18 years. When I started doing it, anybody who did web did everything web. You know, I knew what the server did. I could write HTML and I knew how to divine a website. All of those things are now independent fields and very specialized within those independent fields. You know, UIUX is an entire degree program all by its lonesome. So we have gotten so specialized. There's so much to cover at the university level and that's why even getting an open source in there at all is a win, though it doesn't feel like it's a huge win. Here first, yes? I just basically had a question. Mm-hmm. Do you have any resources if I would like to help the local K through 12 teachers? Because I could go in and give all the seminars I want to to the students that hey, here's how to use Inkscape or all these other free things, but a lot of the teachers have never been exposed to it. Would you have any resources to help me? I'd be willing to help the teachers learn because if they know it, they might give it to the students. Not at the K through 12 level. Most of what we're doing is, there are probably some, but what we're doing is focused at the university level. You can look on that urlsauce-to-serve.org and see if there's anything there that's adaptable for the K through 12 level. And anything you do that you adapt, if you give it back, that would be super fantastic. I'm very confused about something, particularly to hear that so many CS professors don't have experience with open source. I'm a Linux journalist, so I spend a lot of time reading about releases, looking for things. There are a lot of universities releasing open source code. And I just see Chex and MIT and Stanford and revenge champagne. All these people have their own GitHub instances and there's a lot of universities that do a lot of open source. How is it possible for that to be true and also for people to not know what it is or have experience with it? So one of the things you may be seeing is the great divide between the IT department and the CS or SE department. I don't think that's what I'm saying because I'm referring to projects that people have released and machine learning things and stuff that is research that people have done. And there are some. Don't get me wrong. So for example, at Duke, I am working with a professor there who is doing open source. One professor out of all the professors at Duke. There are many professors there who are using open source in their projects. But again, look at the number of universities and the number of universities that aren't on that list and for every Stanford or MIT, which is well known for open source, there are 200 that don't have any open source in their program at all. So how do the big famous universities not serve as positive examples and... That's a really good question. ...for people to look at. There is a not invented here syndrome in academia. Big time. Most teachers have, and... Oh, I'll give the microphone to Lance. But there's a, when we went to start looking, our first thought was we're going to write a book on teaching open source and we're gonna write all the things and we weren't focused on this idea of learning activities at all. We were focused on writing a book and basically creating the textbook. Then we started looking. We realized this stuff exists and that we really didn't need to do that but it exists but that other teachers weren't using it and teachers for the most part are reluctant to use materials that other teachers have developed. They are perpetually reinventing the wheel. And so let's say MIT's got this great open source project and they've done this machine learning thing, you still have that problem. I don't know open source. How do I, I've never worked in the industry. I've been in academia my whole life. How do I start to use this thing? That's MIT. That's MIT. You know, how do I at WUNC or I could, your average community, your average college, your average college, Meredith College, which is right down the road from us. We have a great teacher who took the posse class. He's trying really hard to get his students doing open source but in order for him to make that leap from I'm interested in doing this, I know it's important to I'm able to get my students working in a project. He has to go through something like posse because to understand how an open source project works and how you get involved in it, the difference between the theory and the reality is enormous. Lance, do you want to last? Please, please let us make the last. Well, just to give an example of the open source lab at OSU, we've been at OSU for over 10 years and we are just now finally trying to get real academic curriculum in, just to give you an example. And a lot of that is because, but for one thing, we started outside of an academic unit and so we had no influence on the academic side and two years in of being an academic unit, it took us that long to get the department head and everybody to realize, hey, applied is actually important, not all theory. It doesn't need to be all theory. If they saw all the positive things that came out of our program and now we're just starting to do that and we're one small place where we can do that. And they are well known for open source. Yeah, and we're well known, but... That's their thing, you know, that's one of their big selling points. So they have a lot of incentives to do it. You take normal everyday school, let's take Georgia Tech, well known computer science department, well known. Turns out, I think you're Georgia Tech and one of the UT systems schools turn out more CS grads than almost anywhere else. You go and you talk to them about we would like to do open source. They say, great, we have this incubator program. We would like to work with you, Red Hat. To buy in, there's a $125,000 fee. That's just to talk to us. Okay, then we have this program. This is where students do projects. Great, can we make it a requirement? Sorry, that is my thing saying it's time for me to stop talking. We have this program where students can do projects. Great, can we make one of them open source? Well, so it's really an incubator. We're trying to teach students to be entrepreneurs. So, well, we'd really like to make sure that they're doing open source licenses. Yeah, we're not sure how that would work. And this is a big school that are doing big important things. So, it seems like it makes perfect sense. And yet, we hit these barriers when we go and talk to the teachers and the administrators who are in front of the teachers in many cases. The only other thing I was gonna mention was it's really hard to get open source in the undergraduate level. What you're probably seeing a lot of is master's, because there's a lot of stuff happening at OSU with open source on the master's level and PhD level. Yes. The undergraduate level is what's more difficult. Thanks, I forgot to mention that in my talk. Yeah, most master's students will have done open source. That's when they see it. So, if you, there's a good likelihood that's what you're seeing. Back here? Over there? Do you have any information about what's the situation at Cal Poly Pomona right now? I have none. And for that, I apologize. If you get my card afterwards, I can figure it out. Okay, because I have the feeling that there is a lot of Linux usage over there. That's one reason I decided to maybe go back to that for later on. I was just wondering. Yeah. If you'll give me your card or vice versa, I can talk this to Tom and find out if we've spoken with them and if they'll win and what's going on there. Hi, I know you're, in your current capacity, you're involved primarily with university outreach, but I'm just wondering, have you heard of any efforts maybe approaching the problem from the other side? That is, maybe having some well-heeled donors, possibly start up a university where these kinds of things could be done maybe. What an interesting idea. I have not heard of such a thing. Were there a wealthy donor? I would gladly take him out to dinner and play him with wine and beg him to do that. Yeah, it's a really interesting idea. It would be fantastic. I think a challenge would be equity in that if there were a privately funded, for example, university that was focused on open source, how would you make sure that students could go there? That it wasn't cost-prohibitive, that, but they could always create that model curriculum, which is what we're trying to do with policy. I know I'm very biased, but even in our department, I have noticed more of a pushback from CS. Think about community colleges, think about career and technical education. Those are the ones who are promoting it and may help, if you start making the CS department looking bad, they suddenly start talking to you. It's funny how that works. Trust me, I have gone up to and spoken at the community college of, or the City College of New Jersey, which is one of the New Jersey system community colleges. I have spoken at several community colleges, and you're right, they want to make a difference. And this is an easy way for them to do it. So I do not disagree at all. It's, there's two of us and how many universities and so this is where we need your help. Well, what we're looking at is more the develop, not so much what systems are you running on your lab servers, but how are you developing your code? And you can develop an open source app and do it on top of .NET, as weird as that seems. And people have. So it's not a barrier. It is easier, I think, for students if they're in a Linux environment because the tool set is more easily portable. But that is also shifting. We're seeing more and more schools who are having more and more Linux in their systems. There and then there. One of the things that you mentioned was the fact that, the normal track for a tenure professor, it's usually PhD, postdoc, and then into academia. I'm chemical engineering, which that's the same sort of thing. My first shot at academia didn't work out. I went into industry, learned an awful lot. Now I'm back in academia and I'm trying to push the things that I learned. And one of the things that the undergraduate education really doesn't stress is cooperation and the fact that tasks are too big for one person and they have to be parceled out and they have to work together. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. When I talk to teachers, so one of the things that my team does is we evangelize. They go speak at teachers conferences about open source and why you need to be teaching it. We've got this list of these are the skills your students learn from open source projects that are above and beyond the good code and amongst them we're being able to collaborate with people all over the world from different cultures and different backgrounds, being able to work on something where you're just a tiny piece of a bigger thing. Learning how to know the unknowable. You will never, once you walk out the back door or the front door of college, you will never get a Crystal Queer requirements back ever again. Yeah, exactly. Who will know this and how do I learn it? Yep, you got it. Yep, and that's that modeling uncertainty that we think it's really important for our teachers to show students. They're one up here and I don't wanna bust into the next person's time, because they're break. I'm sure everyone here knows about the Halloween documents, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I first read those in 1998 and then a month later I heard the announcement that Red Hat was introducing their IPO and I made a personal decision at that time that from that point on in my life, I would only develop under the GPL license. And that was a difficult decision for me to make, but now I couldn't imagine my life without participating in the open source community. And personally, I would go as far as to say that I would rather die than not be able to participate. So I think there's a lot of motivation there that could motivate students to want the open source. And we didn't, I didn't talk about this at all, but when we go to talk to students, that's one of the big things we talk about is the dangers of proprietary. I tell Karen's Danvers story and to have a pacemaker and for it to have software that no one had looked at. I've watched Corey Dotter's keynote and I'm gonna get with the folks at the FF and put some of their scary stories in my talks as well because I think that there are real and present dangers in working in proprietary and when students hear it, they kind of go, well, because they had no idea. They've gotten no, like Tom mentioned this, but do students think if it's, open source means I can download it? Or if it's on GitHub, it must be open source. I work with teachers who start out thinking if it's on GitHub, it must be open source. And when we say, no, really, you gotta go find a license and just because it's on GitHub doesn't mean it's open source. It's quite the shock. In my way of thinking though, there's a greater danger than DRM components of software and that is that the people who are writing software won't have the creative drive that they need to have. And I believe that if it weren't for Microsoft, AI would be a reality today. Cool. Thanks everybody, I appreciate it.