 Welcome to the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein. I am thrilled with the episode I'm about to bring to you. We pride ourselves in, you know, bringing you the best of the OGs whether we're talking about original gangster actual gangsters or we're talking about OG FBI agents or prosecutors. Or if we're talking about OG crime writers, I got one of the best in the business, somebody that I've looked up to for a long time, never had him in or never had him on the podcast to interview him, but it's no better time than now. Dan Herbeck from the Buffalo News, he's been reporting on crime in Buffalo since the 1970s and he's on top of the crazy Buffalo strip club alleged mob alleged DEA bribery case involving the Outlaw Motorcycle Club, the Magadino crime family maybe. And it's a crazy story, Dan, where does this rank in the trials and tribulations of Buffalo crime in your time? Well, I've been covering crimes at the Buffalo News for almost 47 years, believe it or not. And this is certainly one of the cases that has gotten a lot of attention, more than probably 95% of the stories that I cover because there's so many different disturbing angles to it. You've got a strip club where the the feds say human trafficking and drug trafficking is going on. The alleged treatment of these women that work in the strip clubs, you've got an alert. I use the word alleged a lot, Scott, because it's my newspaper training. You need to improve. I have to say alleged. There's an alleged organized crime angle to this. And of course, there's there's alleged involvement of the Outlaws biker gang in murdering a federal witness. So a lot of serious stuff. There's a federal prosecutor named Joe Trippie that's handling this case that is a very fierce advocate. And he's a bulldog. He's a bulldog. Yeah, he and his staff are pursuing this. Unlike almost any case I've ever seen the government pursue. Well, you know, for anybody that doesn't know, let's just give a quick 20 second synopsis. I know most of the people watching this know what's up. But about five years ago, Domino started to fall in an investigation into activity coming out of the Pharaoh's Gentleman's Club in suburban Buffalo, a town called Chiquitwaga. It's owned by a alleged self professed organized crime figure, Peter Durace Jr, who according to grand jury testimony, was boasting about his role in the Buffalo mob. But he has not been connected to the Buffalo mob in anything other than that testimony. He is the owner of the strip club. He is the nephew of another alleged mafia figure of the reputed Don of Western New York, Joe Tadardo Jr, who we should say has no criminal record, no criminal convictions. And in 2021, Durace Jr is indicted along with a retired DEA agent for sex trafficking, drug trafficking, money laundering bribery out of the strip club. Over the next couple of years, you had some suspicious deaths, one being of a New York Supreme Court judge who was an undead and co-conspirator in this case. And then more recently, back in the summer, you had what prosecutors are calling the murder of a star witness in this upcoming case, a woman by the name of Crystal Quinn. 37 years old, she was an employee at Pharaoh's Gentleman's Club, worked her way up from kind of being a from what I understand from being a dancer stripper to being Durace Jr's personal assistant and appointment secretary. She was basing the case of her own cut a cooperation deal last winter, which led to Durace Jr having his bond revoked of alleged intimidation tactics. And more recently, you now have superseding indictments that are tied to obstruction of justice related to the death of Crystal Quinn of an intentional overdose back in August. And that's where you bring in the outlaws and the potentially one of the most powerful crime lords in the world right now. He would, and his attorney would push back on that notion, but definitely a powerhouse in the Buffalo Biker scene, outlaws, motorcycle club president, John Ehrman, aka Tommy Oh, that was longer than he said. Well, it's a good, pretty good summary. One thing I would mention is the federal drug agent Joe Bongevani. He's accused of taking bribes and he's accused of through taking bribes of helping drug traffickers, traffic drugs, but he just just to make a point, he's not accused, or he's not accused of any of this, any of this tampering or intentional overdoses or right, right. Just in fairness to him. I want to mention that. But yeah, you've pretty much summarized it pretty well. And, you know, my associate at our newspaper, Pat LeCamp, and I mostly Pat have, we've had our time keeping up with the feds with all the things they've charged, all the allegations that they've made in this case. When's the trial supposed to begin? It's been delayed like five or six times. We're supposed to start back in the summer. Then it was the fall. Now it's the winter. Well, the Bongevani trial has been separated from the Jarray's trial. And that is going to be within the next month or two, I believe, starting. That the Peter Jarray's trial, they don't have a new trial date, because at this point, they don't even know who's going to represent him. He's the fifth. Was it Steve Cohen, his attorney? Steve stepped away and now they're looking to replace him? Steve stepped away and they are looking, well, they replaced him with two other attorneys. And the federal government is now conducting an investigation into Steve Cohen and another attorney, which the feds have not told us much about, but it's mentioned in the court violence. Steve Cohen is an unindicted co-conspirator in this case, which he vigorously denies that they're saying that he conspired with his client and the outlaws to silence a witness. They haven't accused Steve, the lawyer of taking part in the death of this woman. And I've read the charges and I've seen it's all related to a text exchange that Steve had with Crystal Quinn. You can read between the lines. There's nothing overt in the text that's threatening to her, but there are definitely some, if you wanted to try to, again, read between the lines or look at subtext. Yeah. And the government doesn't tell us everything they have either. And Steve was not mentioned by name as a co-conspirator, but those of us who have been in the courtroom, if you read the court papers, it's crystal clear that it could only be Steve that they're referring to. I have an unusual to see if a lawyer being investigated in this way. I had never seen it. Well, there's been a couple cases over the years that I've covered where lawyers have been actually involved in criminal activity, drug dealing and other activities. But this this is a it's a rare, rare type of investigation. There's a lot of nexus points in this narrative, a lot of hot button, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, sexy buzzwords that get people attracted to a case. I can imagine this will be a Dateline NBC at some time soon. I can imagine there will be, at the very least, some type of Netflix docu-series, if not a scripted film in the future. This is just so crazy. You couldn't you couldn't put the best Hollywood screenwriters in a room together and tell them to come up with a plot like this. And just that it's things are evolving at a breakneck pace. Just when you think things are slowing down, they pick up again. I want to kind of bring us let's just go backwards for a second. And let's say go back 10 years. And there were. You know, there was the belief that organized crime in Buffalo was a thing of the past. There was very little. Coverage, but there wasn't a lot to cover. Things were. If if there is organized crime in Buffalo still, and I believe there is, and I believe there's a prominent presence that was able to, for whatever reason, stay under the radar for for a while and let people think they were were dead and gone. In reality, they were stronger than ever. Um, but. There was this narrative. And all of a sudden, like I said, about five years ago, there was clearly a directive from someone in Washington or someone, you know, in a U.S. attorney's office somewhere in Manhattan, I don't know, Western New York, where you guys are. But it there's been a very, very concerted, deliberate, methodical. Full court press that has been coming for five years where they're kind of chipping away at the the outer fringes. This case, that case, this case, that case, and that might not look in a vacuum, it might not look like it's connected. But in reality, if my analysis is that it's all connected and it is kind of culminating in this. In this trial, but I'm kind of interested in your take on like. Mm hmm. A. Why was there there a period of time of about 10, 15 years where it didn't look like there was a lot of activity and and it was kind of a forgotten part of the Buffalo landscape? Because for years, as you know, I mean, there was a lot of coverage of Magadino and and all those guys. What's your take on that? And then what's your take on how trippy and his team have put together this, you know, a full fledged assault? They're they're clicking on all cylinders going after a lot of different people. And I think they're far from done. Well, 70 years ago, Buffalo was considered one of the mob hot beds of the United States, Buffalo and Niagara Falls. Steve Magadino was was one of the most powerful dons in the country. Then he passed away in the late 60s. He he left a void that has never really been filled. The feds have alleged that various people have headed the mob after his demise, including Joe Tadaro and his father, Joe Tadaro, senior, both of whom were never convicted of a crime. Yeah, the feds have never had luck in prosecuting leaders of the Buffalo mob if there is a leadership and you make a good argument. How how could there not be an organized crime? Presence in a city the size of Buffalo, but they have really operated under the radar. I mean, there are very few mob hits in Buffalo. We haven't had one in many years. Very few by, you know, crimes of violence involving the mob and Buffalo. So it almost seems like about five years ago. Someone from the government said, and this is just a conjecture on my part, it seems like somebody said, why do we never have any organized crime, prosecutions in Buffalo? What's going on there? Are you guys doing your job? And they they put this bulldog of a prosecutor, Joe Trippie on it. And as you say, he's been chipping away at the edges of people who allegedly have connections to organized crime. There's a Buffalo schoolteacher went to prison because he's an alleged made man in the mob and he was selling weapons and drugs. A beloved schoolteacher by football coach, a football coach and soccer coach. Then they went after Peter Jiracy's brother, who's in prison now. Yeah, on a drug and weapons charges, a few other people. But I don't know if I doubt if any of these people are actually close to the leadership. No, they're not roles of Buffalo. But like you say, chipping away at the outer edges. And I think that's the way prosecutors do this. Then they started going after Peter Jiracy. And, you know, there's another interesting angle to this, according to the feds, prominent people hung out at that strip club. And Jiracy made friends with with prominent people, including a judge who sadly killed himself because the feds wanted to interview him in this investigation. And you're standing behind that that is that was a legitimate suicide. You don't have any questions? Well, he dove in dove in front of a train on a previous occasion. Right. Miraculously survived. Now, I wish that he would have taken that as a sign from God that God wanted him to live because, you know, you dive under a train and you live to me. That's a sign from God that he wants you to stay alive and do something good with your life. But anyway, months after that, he took his own life and. It was on the heels of a raid. His house had been raided like a week before that. The FBI had raided his house in what seems to be a very sketchy investigation aimed at the judge's wife, who was selling things on eBay. And she's never been charged with any crime related to this raid. So a lot of people believe that the raid was only done to pressure the judge to testify before the FBI. The judge died in his home soon after that. I do not believe it was anything other than a suicide. But I've been wrong before, but I don't see it. And then I want to ask your opinion on another suspicious death that gets a lot less attention. There was a young man that died suspiciously in the hours before Joe Bonjievani was indicted back in 2019, which was the first kind of domino to fall here. I believe he was indicted that. I don't know if the feds raided his house, but the indictment came down in a morning. And the previous evening, this guy who ran a funeral home, who I'm told had ties into some of this drug trafficking, died in the middle of the street. It was kind of called a suicide. There are people that question it. The timing seems very suspicious. Any thoughts? There's always been questions surrounding that death. But media, news media has investigated it. The police have investigated it. If it was a homicide, it's been successfully covered up to this point. And then now we have Crystal Quinn, and I want to kind of get in a little bit into some legal. Let's try to put our legal hats on maybe for a second. And I know you're a reporter. I'm not if you don't feel comfortable. I totally understand. But as of some court hearings this winter, this is in my way I am phrasing this or trying to set a stage for people that are following me to give them coverage of it. It looks to me like this is a giant game of chicken right now between the prosecutors and these four or five co-defendants that are charged in this obstruction case related to the racketeering case, but not not part of the original set of charges. Yeah. I think that to me, it's a bit of a bluff. You had you had the defense attorneys make a motion recently for what's called learned counsel, which is something that you request when you've been informed that your client might be facing a death penalty case. The prosecutors in Buffalo are refusing to tell the defense or the judge that they will not seek the death penalty. They're saying that's very possible. We will. If you don't want the death penalty, please guilty right now and we'll go but we can just call it a day. My analysis and I just want to get your take on it is Simon for people that don't know, Crystal Quinn. Cut a cooperation deal in the winter. By the spring summer, she's really paranoid that that the outlaws, people that are loyal to race in the his alleged connections to the Magadena crime family want to kill her. She knew the outlaws intimately. She had partied at the outlaws clubhouse. I believe she had an actual overdose at one time at the clubhouse that she survived. She knew Tommy O and at some point in July, a former high school friend of hers named Simon Gogolac makes contact with her, hadn't seen her in 10 years or 15 years, tells her, I'm going to hide you. You can come hide with me. I'm going to take you about 90 miles away from Erie County, which is a Buffalo is to Allegheny County. And the police and prosecutors in the FBI believe that it was a ruse that Gogolac intended to kill her. And Gogolac even admits giving her the the Xanax bar that was laced with fentanyl that killed her. He says he didn't know that there was any fentanyl in it that he thought he was just giving her a regular Xanax. Other than him, I don't see right now how you could bring murder charges, frankly, against Peter Jarray's or Tommy O. Unless there's something that we're unaware of. It looks bad, but how can you can... There was a prison meeting a couple of weeks before between Tommy O and Peter Jarray. But it's all conjecture. It's all circumstantial. It's conjecture and it's circumstantial, but again, the feds don't show all their cards at this point. And maybe the defense lawyers and the defendants know what other evidence the feds have. And you and I don't, but yeah, I would say it's very clear that they're trying to squeeze people, trying to get somebody to be fearful that the death penalty is going to be used against them and then come forward and be the first person to become a government witness in this case, among those. It all kind of hinges on Gokulak, though, doesn't it? I mean, I don't think there's... If you're coming from a prosecutorial point of view, I don't think there's any way you believed that Simon Gokulak was just doing this of his own volition. In fact, they're saying that he was sending out texts and other messages, offering his services as a hitman in the months before Crystal Quinn died. I mean, they've got their sights set on him and I'm sure they would love him to cooperate. They re-indicted him, didn't they? Or none of them re-indicted him twice, yeah. He's indicted on the obstruction. He's indicted for a drug and weapons case. Yeah, yeah. And then they caught him... I mean, he is facing very serious charges. And then they caught him dealing drugs from his lockup. And I just saw in a court finally the other day, they're saying that they have transcripts of phone calls where he was telling people that he was gonna get out on bond and flee the cannon. He is not going to get out on bond. Yeah, no, he ain't now. I think you've seen this to them back in the fall. Well, you know, he's an interesting guy. There was one thing that the government put out that I wrote about, but it didn't get a lot of attention. Somebody that had dealt with him in the world of drugs said, told the feds that a couple of years ago, Simon Gogolak called him to his home and invited him down in the basement. And there was a chair with plastic tarps under it and around it and surrounding all the walls of his basement. And you can only imagine what a scary scene that was. Yeah. And I guess it was just to scare the guy. The guy wasn't killed, but man, that's... It's a colorful cast of characters here. It's a picture. Yeah. A rose gallery of figures when he comes to the people at the defense table here. In addition to the Jarrayson, Tommy Oh, Simon Gogolak, you have another motorcycle boss named Mike Ronconi who is the boss of the rare breed motorcycle club, which is the support club, biggest support club for the outlaws. You got a guy named Howard Hard-Howie Hinkel who is a alleged drug dealer that works with the outlaw bikers and was with Crystal Quinn at the end of last couple of hours of her life for Gogolak and Hinkel took Crystal to a party that was being held by the rare breed in Allegheny County. Give me your take on like how the obstruction case and the potential homicide case coming after that, how does that affect what's actually gonna be happening in court when it, whether it comes to Bon Giovanni's case who sadly for him, like you said, he's not tied into any of this really, really dark depraved violence, he's not to say what he did was or what he's being accused of is good. He's being accused of pocketing a quarter million dollars to protect the drug operations being run by Italian organized crime in New York. But how do you see it playing out at the trials? I don't know how it's gonna play out in court because it's almost like there's three separate cases now the Bon Giovanni case, the Jiracy case of drug trafficking, human trafficking and paying bribes to a federal agent. And then you've got this thing of all the obstruction of justice and plotting to kill a federal witness, which I think will almost have to, will have to be a separate trial. Well, I think it's gonna be rolled into an actual homicide case. I mean, I'm guessing by the summertime we will have first degree murder charges brought against at least some of these people. Well, these guys plotted to kill her and then she was killed. So it would seem to me that that's where they're heading but it hasn't happened yet. Have you had any personal interaction with the Jiracy family or the Gitaros just in being around Buffalo for, you guys are all born and bred Buffalo guys and any personal takes on these people? Not from a, not looking at from a legal perspective but just personal. I've never met Peter Jiracy. My retired colleague, Lou Michelle has talked to him on a number of occasions. And Peter is a guy who feels or at least portrays himself as a guy who feels that the government is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and trying to make him into something that he's really not. Joe Tadaro, I have encountered and met a number of times over the years. He's a very, in all my dealings with him, he's a very soft, soft man. He's a very soft spoken gentleman who you would not think is involved in organized crime but I don't know what happens behind the scenes. He has always, when I meet him, he's always told me that I'm a gentleman because I'm careful not to convict him in my articles and I'll always point out that he's never been convicted of a crime which I think is only fair. Although at the same time, my newspaper and I have written numerous times about the allegations that he is the head of the mob and Buffalo. He's not someone who hides though. I mean, he's not a reclusive reputed crime lord. He's somebody that is very prominent in the community. He is a Lenova pizza and wing empire. He take away any allegations of criminal wrongdoing. He's a multi-millionaire, probably a million, 10, 20 times over from legitimate means. He's somebody that I've seen numerous pictures at his pizza place. I know he did a bar stool. He sat there with Dave Portnoy and did a bar stool pizza review. He works with the Buffalo bills and Buffalo Sabres. He's a man about town. So it doesn't look like people, at least ostensibly, everybody does business with him. It doesn't look like people are afraid to do business with him. In his identity as the businessman who runs Lenova pizza, he doesn't hide from the public at all. In fact, you can go into one of his businesses almost any day of the week and there he's working. He's behind the counter. He's not hiding himself. At the same time, being in the news media, he, I can tell you he's very reluctant to discuss the mob allegations. He doesn't like to talk about it. He'll make jokes about it. He's not upset it. Dave Portnoy had no idea who he was. And he made a joke about the mob, not realizing that it could even offend him. And Tadarro made it. Oh yeah, we don't say that word in this, but Portnoy thought he was just a regular Italian pizza shop owner. Who, by the way, that's what Joe Tadarro would tell you he is. Well, he is sad. The feds say he's also something else. But he's a beloved guy in Buffalo. I mean, the former mayor of Buffalo, Tony Macielo, speaks very highly of him. And he's good for the economy there. Yeah, numerous public officials are not afraid to go to his pizza restaurant and all around with him. I've been at public, at events where he's, I've been to parties where he's habnabbing with people, judges, politicians, everyone knew who he was and nobody was hiding from him or ducking away. It's an interesting, it's something you could only see in Buffalo, I can say. Do people in Western New York credit, I mean, what I've heard, but again, I'm not a Western New Yorker, so I wanna hear it from you if it's true or not, that Lenova in the, let's say 80s or whenever, Buffalo wings were something that was very specific to Western New York. Now you can go into any bar, any restaurant around the country and you can get Buffalo wings. When you say it's true that the Lenova pizza franchise or wing franchise helped popularize a Buffalo wings to the rest of the country? Well, they weren't the first, but they certainly have been very active in that. They even have sold frozen chicken wings all over the world. Yep, you can find it under these freezers. I mean, they've made a real brand name for themselves. They have great food there and they've done as much as anybody in Buffalo to popularize the chicken wing, no doubt about it. In fact, a lot of people will tell you that they don't think Joe Tadaro's involved with the mob if perhaps he was in the past because he is so busy and doing so well with his pizza business that why risk his wife, you know, with mobsters? I would respond to that by saying both things can be true and certain people of the type that people are alleging him to be, it's just in your DNA. It doesn't really matter what a normal rational person would think. They would also say in regards to him, again, if you were gonna believe the allegations that it's a family business. So it's just not so quick to just throw away a legacy that your father or your grandfather had put into. So I just wanna wrap this up. I know you gotta get going, but I wanna just finish on any observations in your time, your almost 50 years reporting there about the outlaw biker culture. With the outlaws of the Hells Angels, Rare Breed, has it been a group that's traditionally worked with the Italians? Is it a group that is kind of now becoming more of a big deal because of Tommie O and what the government thinks he is? You made a very interesting comment when you and I were talking a few weeks ago that you think the real target of their federal investigation is the outlaws. I think that if you're gonna look, obviously let me say there's one thing, I think if you're gonna look at what's going on in Chic Tuaga and Faro Gentlemen's Club, if you're gonna look at that as a racketeering enterprise, and I know that Tommie O is not charged in that, but in my opinion, Peter Durace would not be at the top of that pyramid. Tommie O would be at the top of the pyramid and Peter Durace would be reporting to Tommie O. Well, Tommie O is allegedly, according to the feds, the international president of the outlaws. And the feds call the outlaws a very powerful worldwide criminal organization. And Tommie O, through his attorney, has denied that he holds that position. He says he admits he's a member of the club, but denies that he's- His lawyer said he admits that he has a leadership role and that he's been a spokesman for the outlaws, but he denies that he is the international president. The feds insist that he is. Now here you got this guy and he's the general manager of a strip club in Buffalo. So you wonder where that all leads. You wonder what the feds are gonna try and make of that. And you wonder how successful they're going to be. I don't know. I just from- Stay tuned, it's like a very interesting storyline on the Sopranos. Yes, or it's like a soap opera mixed with the Sopranos, mixed with Sons of Anarchy, mixed with a Sydney Lumet movie about corruption in the government. There's so many things here. I just do my best to cover it and I try to be respectful to everybody involved, including the alleged mafia people and the alleged biker gang leaders. And I just try to cover this without doing it in a mean-spirited way. But I'm very interested. I find it very interesting. Me too. This is who am I? Disturbing and interesting and intriguing. I think it's a social commentary in a lot of ways. It speaks of what maybe criminality looks like in 2024 or the 2020s. Stay tuned, stay tuned. Last thing I want to throw at you. Yeah. So Crystal Quinn, the star witness in the case that was in According to the Government was intentionally overdose back in August. She, from what I understand in reading these court findings and talking to some other people, she like cut her cooperation deal on like February 3rd of 23. The following week, Tommy Oh, According to the Government calls for a meeting of all of the biggest outlaw bosses in America to come to Buffalo. They all fly into Buffalo, I believe, on February 11th or 12th. Or maybe they flew in on the 9th or 10th and the meeting was on the 11th. It was at the Buffalo Airport Hilton Garden Inn and you had over 30 outlaw shot callers from around the country that came to be addressed by Tommy Oh, how do you read into that? Well, in fairness, it could have been a coincidence. And I know you pointed out that it's an interesting coincidence, but unfortunately, we don't know it was said at that meeting. It would have been very interesting if we did that. And if Mr. Jarray Jr. knew about that meeting or had any presence at that meeting, only time will tell, I guess. But Dan- One of the many mysteries of the case for me. Me too. And well, Dan and I will keep covering this. Dan, like I said, people like myself, we tip our hat to people like you who laid the groundwork for what we do now. I learned about, you know, I can go almost go to every city and go to someone like a Dan and be like, people look at me as an expert, but I learned, I mean, my buffalo knowledge started with Dan. And I just met Dan kind of recently on a personal level, but I wouldn't be interested in this subject matter. I wouldn't be reporting on it if it wasn't for me reading Dan all the way back decades ago. So Dan, thanks so much for what you do. Scott, and I just wanted to tell you when I told you this in person, your podcast is very good because it's very interesting and it's intriguing, but you are, you're not reckless. You are, you try to stick to the facts. You do throw a few opinions in there, but you're careful with what you report and I respect that. Thank you. I was trying to stay away from the drama. There's so much drama on YouTube. Well, there's drama. Yeah. I like the drama, the covering the drama. I'm saying like when shows on YouTube start slinging mud back and forth with each other, I stay away from all that. Just strictly news analysis is true. And you have a newspaper background yourself. Yes, I miss, I can go down, we can go down to journalism rabbit hole, but Dan's been there forever. I feel like I got there at the very, very end of what the normal or at that time, what was the normal landscape of newspaper journalism when that's where you every morning, you go out and get your newspaper. There was no, there were very little online presence. I remember trying to, as a young pop journalist, help them put the paper to bed. It felt like I was in the movie broadcast news. Yeah. Well, if I could just make a little pitch for newspapers when I worked at federal court for 24 years in Buffalo, and I'll tell you, and any knowledgeable reporter will tell you, even the most interesting trials, 90% of it is boring. Yep. So you need a reporter who's there physically to sit there for maybe six hours of testimony to get the 10 minutes that's gonna make a great story and that's gonna be interesting to everybody. Yep. And if newspapers disappear, if you no longer have reporters out there doing the scutwork like that, guys like you, you're not, you're gonna have a hard time getting information because somebody's gotta be out there in court hearing this stuff. And as I say, 90% of it will put you to sleep. I wrote a book on the longest federal mob trial in the history of Illinois. I was sitting in the court from May of 2007 to October of 2007. Wow. So yes, I had to take all of that and synthesize it down to like a 300 page. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's like even these real interesting trials, for most of it, you have to fight sometimes to stay awake because it's detailed stuff that isn't very interesting and you know, and then something fascinating comes up and you gotta make sure you're alert and you hear it. So tell everybody where they can find you. I mean, obviously they can find you in the Buffalo News or anywhere else you want people to know where they can come along. We have a very good newspaper still. It's called the Buffalo News and our website is bufflonews.com. And great reporting, great reporting. We got some, you know, our business has taken a hit like every other, but we still have some tremendous people working at our paper. Well, you know, I'm still, I'm a dinosaur. I still want to have a paper in my hands, not to say I don't sometimes read stuff online, but I'm still going to get the, I'm working from Detroit here. I still go get the Detroit Free Press with Detroit News and read it with my own two hands. I'm a dinosaur like that, but you're right. So important, hopefully it evolves and we don't lose as much of that as we could. Dan, thank you so much for joining me. All right, great talking to you, Scott. Good luck, I'm sure we'll talk again. We will talk soon. Dan, please check out Dan for anything and everything and the Buffalo News, anything but everything that is happening in this case, the case of Peter Jarris, Jr. and involved. Farrow Strip Club, yep. Farrow Strip Club, the outlaws, the alleged ties to the Magadena Crime family. It's all there. It's fascinating. It's compelling. Dan, thank you so much. All right, take care.