 Hello, and welcome to another edition of Viranar Dialogues with me, Vinay Tehwari in association with the exchange for media. I have somebody with me who leads an industry that's possibly something that all of you have consumed. Each one of us used it, each one of us aspires for it, and some of us find multiple uses for it as well. I had with me Suparna Mitra, CEO of the Watches and Variables Division for Titan, a brand that is iconic in India, perhaps one of the most well-known brands that you would imagine, a brand which I have grown up watching and even consuming. Suparna, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. We're meeting in slightly difficult times, so they're improving, but certainly you represent an industry which possibly would have had a biggest impact of what happened not just in 2020, but it repeated itself in a much bigger form, say in 2021. So just to kick it off, my first question, for a brand like Titan, that pretty much was the king of a particular section, and everybody aspired to have that brand. The last two years have changed a lot, and in that way, how do you see Titan changing the way you've done business and the way you see the rest of the year in the coming years spanning out? Thanks, Vinay. Thanks for this opportunity. Yeah, this brand Titan, as well as all the other brands of Titan company in the Watches and Variables space, like Sonata, Fast Track, Xilis, we are the market leaders have been for the last three decades and more and enjoy an unviable 50% value of market share. Yes, COVID wave one in 2020 was a big, big dampener, and it was for the entire country, as you know, the full lockdown and everything had come to a standstill. And at that point, we were actually feeling a little nervous, saying that how will the country recover? How will consumers come back? What will be the reason why consumers will come back to a discretionary and non-essential category like Watches? If you remember, the last year, the whole conversation was essential and non-essentials, and it seemed like frivolous, maybe even a politically incorrect thing to say that, you know, I want to buy some, you know, an object of beauty of ownership. So it was a slow climb back last year. There were a lot of reasons that we created in order to get consumers back. For example, we did this whole thing of let's get India ticking. And that was a, it was not a particular brand or even a particular category. It was just to make everyone think that if each of us are not doing our bit, especially people like us who are in the consuming class, if we are not doing our bit, how will the economy come back on track? How the economy runs on consumers and producers? And if consumers come back, then producers are back and so on and so forth. So that was one of the things. And then we did things like, you know, we did this whole thing on gifting, you know, occasions and moments and relationships. I think one of the big lessons of COVID wave one and separately wave two has been that, you know, we think of many things as precious in our lives, but actually it's the people around us, the relationships, the people that we care about. Those are the real precious things. And in a scenario where there hasn't been much travel, we haven't been able to go out and celebrate. And, you know, many occasions have come and gone. Many milestones have been missed. I think gifting has been one thing that, you know, is continuing. And people want to express their love and affection to their near and dear ones. So that is another, you know, big thing that has helped our recovery. Overall, we were quite happy with our recovery in, say, Jan 5, March quarter, because after almost nine months of not doing that well, we were in a good place. And then, of course, COVID too happened in April, second half of April and May, you know, for the entire country, it was brutal. It was just so hard. And of course, your consumption also came to a grinding halt. And then now, I think in this, from June, little bit and certainly in July, we are really seeing that people are wanting to come back. They are wanting to get into the category in within the category brands, which have a lot of trust, like Titan, they tend to gain because when people are coming back into consumption, they go to trusted familiar brands, because that's what gives them assurance. We have a large retail network and our network is up and running with the best safety standards. And the difference from last year to this year, this year, we are also saying that all us sales staff at the stores are also vaccinated. So there are a lot of things that we've done as a company as a division, our brands have reached out to consumers in different ways. But, you know, overall, it's been a roller coaster override. We were down in the towns, we recovered, and then there was the next big blow. And now we are in the next phase of recovery. I mean, actually, your answer kind of partially answered my next question, which was that you said yourself that watches and maybe wearables are perceived to be non-essential in terms of the category. And people wouldn't really go in as the first choice option if you were passing through difficulty like the one we've had in the last two years. And that, of course, changes the challenges. And you've told us what the challenges are. But then the reality is super now that both watches and wearables are also very occasion driven industry, which means I mean, the bulk of business or whatever comes from people actually going ahead and being part of occasions, you go and attend somebody's wedding, you actually have a birthday party, you have graduation ceremonies, you have stuff happening in college or a farewell party at college. None of that has happened in the last two years. And actually in the way things are going, that fear of, you know, big gatherings is going to continue perhaps to have these formal occasions reducing. And hence, the actual need for gifting, people have been able to avoid gifting. I mean, if I can use that word, if I don't have to give it, I don't. In a normal time, if you're invited to a party or a wedding, you would have no option but to carry a gift along, right? That I'm sure is a completely different challenge. I mean, this occasion driven activity is not going to revive so soon, even now because the third wave moves and there are warnings already being issued. So, yes, the formal and large gatherings have come down. There are two or three things that are actually helping the situation in this context. One is that there has been an unprecedented boom in variables. And that has also come because a lot of variables, whether they're smartwatches or smart bands are about fitness. And I don't think there has been this much interest in people for their interest, their own health and fitness ever as it has been in the last one and a half years. So there have been a lot of huge demand on that side, especially on the smartwatches and band side. And that has also helped us. I think the second point is that while larger gatherings have not happened. And I'll give you the example of something like a wedding. You know, there would be weddings where 500 people will be invited today. You can. I mean, I don't know the exact number now, but normally there would be 50 or 100 that would be, you know, allowed. So what happens is that in a lot of times, the amount of money that you would have liked to spend, a larger share actually comes to categories like watches, jewelry, because those are things that you would give away to the bride, to the groom. And we see that. In fact, even in this little bit of window we saw in June, mid of June onwards, still mid of July, where there were a lot of wedding dates, we saw a good uptick in the demand of wedding watches. And interestingly, we saw almost a 20 percent increase in the average price. And that goes back saying that, you know, somewhere that budget gets redistributed. So, yes, you know, overall, it is a challenge. But within that, these are some of the silver linings that, yes, people who are buying watches, forgifting, whether it is a wedding or other occasions, they are being a little more generous in their budgets because there are not that many things to spend money on. You know, like a wedding would be a big location, a honeymoon, you know, a lot of travel, all of that is now kind of not possible. So people are redirecting it to things that would be there. Two quick questions come from what you said. There was, I was, I mean, I followed some bit of what, you know, Titan had planned earlier, and I was very intrigued by that. And I wanted to ask you, if you're talking today, that that particular, you know, scheme or concept that you began was, in your view, was that a success or not? Something like, for instance, self-gifting. I remember, I mean, push the idea of self-gifting a lot last year. You know, possibly as a field routine, because you were passing through a very difficult time and everybody was holding up at home and not feeling very good about themselves. Today, would you say self-gifting work to, was there a success? If you would you call that a success to the kind of targets that you'd set for yourself? OK, let's put it this way. It is the more evolved concept to gift yourself. It's not a standard concept. And that is why it makes for interesting advertising. Having said that, and, you know, I was just reviewing, we do a lot of programs around birthdays and anniversaries of our customers, of our loyalty club customers and in our retail stores. And that percentage of sales that come from birthdays and anniversaries has taken a big jump from, say, 1920 to 2021. And even in the first two months, I would say it's seeing a further jump. So self-gifting, somewhat of an evolved concept. Maybe some people do it. But gifting in general and especially gifting to close people like, you know, birthdays could also be self-birthdays, could be spouse birthdays, could be children's birthdays, but giving oneself or somebody in the family, giving, you know, a member of the family a really nice, fabulous watch for a birthday, it makes for a classic timeless gift. So that is continuing and similarly for anniversaries. I mean, I know, Suparna, businesses, and especially, you know, complicated businesses, difficult businesses like the one that you are in, obviously have a way more nuanced and a more structured approach to it. But I approach a lot of the questions that I asked them with the human behavior point of view, because I believe that ultimately, irrespective of what we learn, whether we read Peter Draco, we learn in a, you know, in a great college, ultimately, it's about human behavior. One of the things that has always intrigued me is that when people perceive a particular brand, how they perceive it makes a big difference in the kind of decision they make. Now, for me, and for a lot of people, I guess in India, Titan was a brand that had its image of being a robust brand. I mean, the common word you would say is, it's very good, you can take it. It will be good, it will be strong. You know, those kind of words you would always hear, because if somebody would ask just to peer review, which car do you want, you can take Titan, that's how we brought up. Now, that particular concept has slightly changed, which means that being a very strong legacy brand can become possibly a bit of a handicap when you're trying to compete with, say, global majors, where snob value takes precedence. Today, in the Watches division, I mean, nobody now buys a watch to see the time. I mean, cell phones are providing the same service, right? It's moved on to being an accessory or maybe a showoff piece or something that you just show off and say, oh, look, this is the one. It's a collector's item more than a, you know, a convenience item. So when you have something like that, do you believe that Titan's legacy of being a very strong, you know, legacy brand becomes a barrier to trying to reinvent yourself to being a more, you know, aspirational, expensive niche segment? So this is a very interesting question. And it's the kind of thing that we employ and, you know, a lot of deploy a lot of our time in kind of solving for this intellectual challenge. There are two parts to it. One is that there is definitely in India, you know, there's great aspiration towards foreign brands across categories, right? And watches is a category where, in fact, almost all of our competition is they're all international brands. Second point is that the fact that we are known as excellent watchmakers actually goes in our favor because, you know, the horology, the science, the trust that comes from knowing watches, even like I said, the retail network or the service network, if anything happened to a Titan watch or even if it was just about changing your battery every two or three years, I know where to go to. I know I will get, you know, a qualified technician who will open it, put it back together. And so there is all of that that helps us. The fact is that there is aspiration for international brands. And number two is that there is a big premiumization drive that's going on. And again, it's across categories, certainly true for our category. Where, you know, maybe 10 years back, 5,000 was considered a big thing, you know, like an expensive watch. Today, people buy 15,000, 20,000 watches with, you know, no big consideration. It's just like a very normal. And I think that's something that we have taken cognizance of a few years back. So we've also been on the premiumization journey. In fact, this year, in fact, 2020, we launched the highest price Titan watch at 1,95,000. This is not a gold watch. We have gold watches, which is made of gold under our Sabran Nebula, which is at five, six, seven lakhs. But then there is a certain value of gold because there's a weight of gold and a cost of gold. As a watch, we made 200 limited edition pieces of this fantastic marvel of engineering called Titan Edge Mechanical and 100 each in each design. And it sounds like how many people are Titan? That is, two lakhs of Titan, how does it all put together? It does. There are enough watch connoisseurs who actually they have a lot of other Swiss watches and they now bought into Titan because they felt that the mastery, the workmanship, the logical excellence of this one piece was really worth it. There were also a lot of Titan, what I would call upgraded. People who bought watches, maybe the Titan Edge or the Titan Ceramic Edge at 25,000 and they're like, I know this brand. I love this brand. I'm ready for this watch. I'll go get one. So we've had this. This one watch is important, not just because it, you know, the number of pieces they sell sold, but it's because it broke the mental barrier in our head, as well as in the consumer's head on what a Titan, what is the premium watch that a Titan watch can command and why? The why comes from a whole bunch of things that comes together. That's it's one of the slimmest mechanical watches and it's beautiful. It's slim. It's mechanical. Like I said, it's a piece to treasure. So there are all these trends. So we are also having that, but we're also having a lot of three thousand, four thousand, five thousand pre-watches because that's where the bulk of the market lies. And we are an inclusive brand. I think that's the other thing about the emotional quotient of the brand is that a lot of brands and a lot of luxury brands, their trick isn't on being exclusive. And so consumers want to somehow enter the club. For us, we've always been inclusive. And it's not about the price point. It's just that we are, you know, the way Indians are. We will welcome everybody to our house. We will welcome everybody to our store. And inclusivity gives it a certain warmth and a certain comfort. But I think Titan has also stood for a certain level of class. And these two seemingly opposite things, like class can be seen as a little more cold or if it is very warm, it can be seen as a little more mass. But when you combine class and warm, you are in that zone, what I call the Titan zone, where there is, yes, it's a legacy brand, but there is enduring quality to that legacy. It's not a legacy that has an expiry date. It's a legacy that's building on itself. So actually, again, very interestingly, you said two things that would have been my next questions. And, you know, this particular watch that you mentioned cost 1.95 lakh rupees was one of my specific cases. And what I was most intrigued by was this, look, anybody who's buying a watch which is close to two lakhs or more is not a price conscious consumer. There's no way a price conscious consumer will look at something, say, even between, say, maybe 10,000 to 20,000, but not more than that. So if you see, you know, I mean, every time that I've gone to a mall or a shop and I overhear conversations, I see the first thing that salesman asks is what is the range? That's the first question the salesman asks when a person looks unsure and not very sure of what he or she wants. The salesman inevitably asks range and then when the guy specifies the range, he will give him four or five options or four or five options. And he chooses one of them. Now, anybody who's buying something more than one and a half lakhs to two lakhs is not that your range consumer. Now, if with that specification in mind, the international brands obviously also cost around the same or maybe a little bit more here or there, even if the price goes up to three or four lakhs in that concept, my question specifically was this, is cost the only way to premiumize it? There's a word like that, a particular brand. One way of cosmetics, for instance, thrives on the idea of making something cost heavy so that it looks premium. It may have exactly the same components as somebody else has. But it thrives on costing. In watches available services, it's cost the only way to make it premium. Because if that is the case or if that's not the case, then the legacy brand would weigh heavy on trying to get people away from not showing up and saying, look, I've got this brand or an American that brand. It's cost the only way to premiumize a brand. No, no, no, cost is certainly not the only way. And the category of watches is also interesting because consumers buy watches for three or four neat states. They come from three or four neat states. And like you established right in the beginning, it is not about timekeeping, right? So one neat state is style accessorization, completing a look. And that was a very prominent neat state in the pre-COVID days when you had different occasions, you had to go to work, you had to look the part. So you would wear a certain if you were a man, you'd wear a certain kind of shirt or suit or shoes or watch. Or if you were going for a wedding or if you were going for a weekend brunch, you had to look the part from talk to toe and the watch would be an accessory. So there is that space, which is more about fashion, style, etc. Then there is the space of status, which is really what is how does your brand get pegged in terms of some kind of ladder of premiumness or luxury or etc. So that's the second neat state that comes from. And the third one, which is self-expression, which is neither about fitting a certain ensemble look nor is it about, you know, I have come a long way, now I'm worth this. Or, you know, people of my cohort of my level are wearing X, Y, Z watch. But it's more like I am this kind of a person. And I think that is the way that actually Titan, a lot of premiumization of Titan is along that. So we have sub brands, for example, Raga. Raga is a sub brand of Titan that has tremendous appeal among women in India. And it comes from the fact. So cost of price is actually not so prominent. It is that it is a certain ethos, it is a certain beauty, a sense of femininity, which is not a very soft kind of femininity. It is actually a very strong and self-expressive femininity. And Raga is sitting right there. And it is the kind of price points we are able to get in Raga is also quite interesting, quite high. Because that Raga customer buys into this self-expression mode that Raga invokes in her. I'm the Raga woman. And I have this combination of beauty and strength in me. And I want to express myself. So Raga is an example, Edge is an example, Octane is an example. Xilis is another brand, which is, you know, or it's Swiss made. It's brand owned by Titan. A lot of people who use Xilis because it stands for a certain emotive value of design and the way it comes together. So the the longest shot of it, Vinay, is that if you look at the emotional positioning and how different brands, even there may be two brands exactly at the same price point, but they're appealing to different parts of your brain and they're saying one is evoking maybe a more sporty angle. One is evoking a more dressy angle. And I see why I would buy. I mean, one is that I am, say, a Raga type of consumer and I'm constantly buying Raga. The other is that sometimes I am in a Raga mode or that's my what I want to express, but sometimes I want to express something else because there are many means within me. And these are the layers that brands actually use. And certainly we in Titan in watches, we have a whole portfolio of brands and we have some brands and a lot of this is coming from consumers, the insight that consumers are have that we have of consumers that is going deeper into their emotions. Right. One of the things that intrigues me is, I mean, look, Titan at one point at a time was almost the timekeeper to the nation. I mean, everybody looked at Titan to keep their time and to manage things. And then, of course, the world changed. Everything changed. And the company evolved to, you know, making Titan a brand which is aspirational, I mean, even the company started calling itself watchable than wearable. It's not just a word watch. It's not about just what looking at the time. And now, because of Manda make you mentioned yourself, you know, just a short while back that people have become very fitness conscious. And there are a lot of these variables, which are fitness devices that people are actively using, all of us are using, I'm using, everyone's using. Now, in your own world, does this, you know, it's a very serious evolution from being timekeeper to becoming aspirational to becoming a you know, kind of a jewelry equivalent and now becoming almost as if a health accessory organization, but that's a big growing segment. Does it is, do you guys see it as a glass half full or the glass half empty that we've gone into a completely new segment. I mean, you're almost now providing health services to people on the go. I mean, I can check my BP. I can check my pulse. I can check my various other parameters on my wearable. So is the fundamental character of Titan evolving a good thing? Or is it something that you worry about that is taking away from the legacy? Because, you know, I mean, nobody would have imagined Titan being, you know, a front player in providing health service wearables. That's not something we would have thought of, say, 10 years ago. And now it's a reality. Does that look like a glass half full to you or glass half empty to you? I think it's an opportunity for lifetime. And, you know, in the first wave of pandemic, there was a word that was used a lot, which I'm not hearing this as much. The word pivot. So a lot of companies, we are pivoting, you know, I mean, bunches of companies pivoted to making masks, but that's one level of pivot. But I do think that this is the opportunity of a lifetime to transform ourselves. See, one of the things is that we can say we were a watches company. We are a watches and wearables company. But at the heart of it is that we were always a consumer company. And we always appealed to, I would say, the vast Indian middle and upper middle class middle upper middle. We are not in some high five premium nor are we, you know, so this the changing, evolving needs of this consumer base is actually helping us evolve, learn new things, become more relevant and useful for the consumer. I think that's a very big plus. So I mean, right now I'm wearing the fast track reflex three. And, you know, it of course happens to match what I'm doing. So it's also doing, you know, the self expressive, the matchy, matchy thing, you know, and it's also feminine. It's a nice color. It goes with what I'm wearing. It goes with me, but in this is there with me 24 seven. I'm seeing how many steps I'm seeing my heart rate. There are times when I'm just, you know, it's a bit of a personal anecdote, almost bordering on a joke. Before I go into a big meeting and I'm really prepared. I check is my heartbeat. Okay, should I take a few more, you know, deep breaths before I go in? It is actually a very invaluable companion in my life. It gives me my sleep metrics. Again, you know, there are days like tomorrow morning, I have a morning flight and there are days I lose my sleep in the night because I'm thinking about how I will wake up in the morning. I think there are a lot of people and this gives you things like, yeah, your sleep is this is the quality. You should do this. It's not like we don't know, we all know what is good for us. We know that we need to walk how many steps. We know what we need to do in term. It's just that this device is now a catalyst. It's a companion and that is a huge plus for me. So, yes, watches has their own role, wearables, smart watches, smart bands have a additional added, you know, accentuated role. And it is, it's something that I think, like I said, I'm really very grateful that this pivot has happened and that we are gathering and a lot of momentum in this. We are one of the big players. We have very, very ambitious plans going ahead. So, and it also gives everybody in the division something new to learn. Like starting from the sales representative at the store who's now learned something about a new category, you know, he or she may have been selling watches for a long time, but now you need to know, you need to know how to sync, you need to know what is the app, you need to know the tech details. It's just, you know, or if you are a learning organization because of this intervention, and that's great. So, I mean, it's maybe a little naughty to say the way I put this question, but look, you are currently, Sukhanda Mitra is the CEO of the watches and wearables division. Do you guys now distinguish between watches and wearables? Because soon it will all be wearables. I guess there will be no real watches division, right? Is that fair way to look at it? Because ultimately it is now more about wearables and not so much about watches. So, the wearables growth is, of course, monumental, but the base of watches is still very large. So, it will remain watches and wearables. Maybe in some times it will become wearables and watches. But I do think watches, and I'll tell you why I think watches will continue is because there is a set in India, there is always an aspiring segment and they're always coming into the market. They're coming, you know, one of our brands, Sonata, is like a it's an economy brand and actually converts the unbranded to the branded. And we find huge numbers of people who come in and who are this. Sonata is their first branded watch and it's it's a very big thing. So, I think it will be sometime before it becomes only wearables. Like I said, the base of watches is huge and also, Vinay, it also depends on the ingenuity and the desire of the marketer, of the company to arrive at newer and newer reasons to give to the consumer so that they buy watches apart from the reasons that they have for buying wearables. And, you know, the examples I gave say an edge mechanical or a rubber. These are good examples. You know, those needs will never go out. Some new needs have come in, but the old needs will remain. Before I wrap up one other curiosity question I had, what I mean, is Titan Pay a success? Do you think that's a success story or do you think there's still a lot of headroom for it to grow up because that's actually getting into a space which is, you know, which of course is sometimes a natural extension of what you do and maybe a sign of the kind of times that we're living in where you need to have these, you know, add-ons which consumers need. But what do you call Titan Pay a success? So do you think that's something that you would need more work on? It is a need of the times. It is a success. Having said that payment is also an industry that has a lot of regulatory and other changes that are happening. So one has to keep up, one has to constantly remain within the ambit of the regulatory authorities because it's payment, right? It's money. But from an idea point of view, you know, contactless payments has gone through the roof and to be able to be hands-free and have the contactless payment option is a very, very good insight. It's a brilliant piece of consumer insighting and actually the timing of Titan Pay also worked out really well. I mean, honestly, we've been working on it for a while with the SBI and Yono, but the timing happened just after COVID. So it worked out well. So payment is a very interesting use case and an interesting proposition. It needs constant work. It's not something that has become so big or exploded so much because of many other, you know, conditions that need to be satisfied. So that's something that you'll stay with. I mean, it's not something that you're intending to get out of in that sense. Right. Because I mean, payments is a crowded market. Everybody wants to get into it and more and more players are getting into it. Everybody is finding your customized vehicles. Before I wrap up, one last question. I mean, now I think the country and pretty much the world has figured out how to deal with the pandemic. I think people have initially you had a situation, but either were people completely careless or completely paranoid and you never had somebody in between. But I think the lessons have taught us that if you're practically, you know, you use common sense and you have a practical approach towards how to handle it, you can possibly do it. And of course, as vaccination speed goes up, you may have a much better situation going forward. So from that point of view, to say, you know, divisions like yours, look at the coming year with some bit of optimism, knowing fully well that we burnt our fingers once thinking that the first once the first wave ended that everything is going to be fine. And we burnt our fingers very badly. Now with the talk of third wave or fourth wave or Spanish flu equivalent discussions that keep happening, does that make you change the way you would look at your next financials or a couple of financials or you think that the worst is over and we should be on a fairly consistent plane now going forward? So Vinay, honestly, nobody knows, right? And I really believe in focusing on things that one can control because there are things that one cannot control. And that is what will happen. We need to be prepared, need to have the plan A, plan B on what we are doing. We are, of course, taking extraordinary measures for safety in our own ecosystem, in our factory stores, etc., and also in with our customers. And that and of course, like you mentioned, the overall vaccination, etc., is giving a certain sense that there will be, you know, because in between wave one and wave two, there was nothing that had changed. There was no real vaccination is still at a very infant stage. Whereas now people have understood and realized that they can do this. You know, public behavior is difficult to predict. Public memory is notoriously short. Two months back, people were, you know, doing all kinds of they were talking to absolute strangers and saying, can I get oxygen? But, you know, how it is now, I'm not saying, yeah, I'm not passing any judgment. It is the way it is. This is this, this is what it is, right? I think I would, I concentrate on what other things that we can do as a business that will, a, you know, that is on innovation. So we give newer and newer reasons for people to come in, be on efficiency, on execution, on safety, on planning. I think, I think the first wave also helped us do a lot of soul searching on, because, you know, we, our division is 34 years old. And so we've been doing things for three decades in a certain way and a complete halt actually made us stop and think, why are we doing it this way? Is there a better way of doing, you know, any particular activity, certainly digital, digital, the digitalization of many processes and many other things have helped us learn that there are newer, more efficient ways of doing it. For example, I mean, it's a, I tell my team often that if we were to start this business today, how would we structure ourselves? How would those processes be? What would serve our customers best now? Now, I'm not saying that we will, you know, that is the reality today. The reality is that we are what we are. But this allows us to be, to think unfettered on what the future can hold. So I am very, very confident and very bullish about not just recovery, but also about this whole whatever has happened as a huge chance given for many of us to relook and to re-architect ourselves, to reimagine ourselves and really craft a new future for, you know, the next four, five years, which is going to be really, really exciting. Right. So on that very positive note, Subarna, thank you very much. It's been a great learning, you know, laughs half an hour for me and I'm hoping that everyone else who watches it will have learned a thing or two about how the watch and the industry works and it's fighting its way through. And I wish you and I can all the smiles and may you continue to go well. Thank you very much, Subarna, for this wonderful opportunity. Thank you. Thank you so much, Vinay. It was it was lovely talking. It was really enjoyable talking to you. Thank you.