 So good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this incredible session and this great group of people that we have on the panel and I'm honored to be out here to be moderating the session and introducing my fellow panelists. In typical Swiss fashion we're starting right on time so I was joking with somebody else, I don't know whether the Swiss do anything else but they do bring everything start on time absolutely for sure so let me take a quick minute and introducing my fellow panelists. I'll start from the far end, Mr. Tulsi Tanti I think everybody knows, someone who I admire was created one of the world's largest wind energy companies in the world today and I keep admiring the fact that when it started in small town Gujarat to a global company it's an incredible achievement. Next to him is my colleague, ex-colleague from GE Days but Mali Agarwala who is the GE India CEO for India Bangladesh in Sri Lanka and just an incredible person to be leading GE in this exciting time as it grows over time. Next to him is Minister Belan from Sweden, the Minister of Energy and somebody was just saying that an incredible speaker so Minister thank you for being here. On his right is the Minister of State for Petroleum and Natural Gas of India, Mr. Pradhan and once again Minister thank you for taking the time to be with us. And lastly, Lizak who is the Director of US Trade and Development Agency leads from all the way from Washington to be with us so thanks so much, Liz, for coming over. What I'd like to do with this session is talk about energy. Energy is a big topic, there's oil and gas, there's water, there's renewables, there's electricity so it's a really vast topic and there's a lot to cover and therefore it's an exciting topic given the fact that we're in a world today where energy prices are crashing and oil and gas renewables are taking off, it's getting a lot of the tension would be good to understand the dynamics whether renewables are here to stay, not here to stay and how this whole thing is going to play out so with that quick introduction what I'd like to do is invite you Mr. Pradhan to give your share, your perspective on where you sit, on where you think this whole energy world is going to look like for India in terms of oil and gas, conventional renewables, how do you see it all panning out so would love to get you to share your views. Good afternoon friends, I think as a political activist I thought I should speak in last and I should or should I speak but everybody might have to speak and I should sum up that and that should be my speech. He put me in a difficult and tight position, initiator of this debate and discussion. Friends India consisting 18% of the world population and if I you know about the data, if I recollect the data, remind the data, 6% of the primary energy of the world is consumed by Indian population, this is the market, this is the market side, this is the reality. All the and India is the now the per capita energy consumption is one among the lowest one not like my colleagues country and per capita consumption is very low and with this statistics 18% world population, 6% of primary energy consumption and one of the lowest per capita energy consumer still I am the number three energy consumer of the world. This story begins here in India, this is the size, this is the volume and what is the nature of society, present society, where aspirational society, the country of lot of young person, lot of new ideas, lot of innovative minds are there. If I tour around different part of the world what I found in all the back rooms, in all the back office, in all the development technology development center, there is full of Indian minds. Now this is the time due to globalization, due to digitalization, the world market is moving towards a single platform. In this changing scenario, India as a society, India as a country, it is a growth trajectory, it is on a very its own vibrations are there in Indian market and today if I what is the requirement of energy, water and air is the primary component of a living human, living being, so energy, energy is an inevitable part of our modern lifestyle. Now how do we organize our energy requirement? There are lot of source, there are lot of business models, there are lot of criticism, there are lots of alternatives are there but energy consumption in India is bound to grow, we need energy, simultaneously as a responsible society, as a civilized society, now we are not the one of the, I cannot compete with him but I am not the pollutant one, I have my responsibility, I have my requirement, with my requirement in my basket I need affordable energy, I need clean energy, I need quality energy, this is a challenge in India, how do you organize, when you organize your energy basket, how do you do that? In one hand you need affordable energy, you need accessible energy and you need quality energy, in a very fashionable way in today's present day this is known as renewable energy, it's known as green energy but according to me I need energy, I have to see whether I am getting that energy from coal, I am getting that energy from oil, I am getting that energy from gas, I am getting that energy from CBM, I am getting that energy from Mr. Santish's windmill or I am getting that energy from your solar panels, I have to have a mixed basket and only through different model, through different investment model I can create a transparent mechanism, last two and half years and my prime minister is very clear on one thing, last one and half year, two and half year he has initiated so many new things, sometime when we meet him in cabinet he is very clear on one issue, mark my words, fossil fuel will very soon face a challenge in the changing world scenario, I don't want to get into that debate with my left side and right side, still America is using coal as a primary source of energy and they have a commitment by 2030 will be zero fossil fuel energy, I think both the model can be applicable for me, that is the reason my prime minister has very visionary as a visionary leader, he has committed himself by 2030 India will have a proactive stand and will reduce our emission level to this much and India is one of the first country to ratify the COP 21 document in last second October, just jokingly my dear friend was arguing with me why you are so much focused on LNG, why not pipe gas, today he has advertised out how there will be a sales pipeline from Iran to India, as an energy policy administrator I am very open, I need quality energy which will be affordable, which will be transparent, which will be accessible, so only I can achieve that through policy reforms, two things I want to cite as an example by initiating this debate, last two years back we have deregulate our market, in a welfare state subsidy is a inseparable component, this is a belief, but now my government has initiated a debate whether subsidy should be given to all the society, all segment of the society, whether it should be focused to the needy people, we want to initiate that debate, we want to reduce the subsidy burden, we want to reduce the subsidy mechanism that will stimulate the investment, investor will get an assurance on his investment, he will be assured there is a free market mechanism, there is no additional burden is there, there is a certainty, so we have deregulated our market, we have dealing subsidized product, yes we are giving subsidized product in some part of petroleum products, but the primary two product petrol and diesel we have deregulated from the subsidy mechanism, number two lot of debate is going on what should be the price of production, for crude oil there is a very subtle price, but what about gas, there is a long history of gas journeying in this country, rightly this government thought at one point of time we have to adopt a transparent market mechanism for the gas pricing that we have done, we are very much focusing on bioenergy, as I was talking to my colleague, in the renewable energy vertical there is a fashion today, as if I beg my apology to Mr. Tanthi is only solar and wind is the only alternative, why can't we tap the biomass of Indian agricultural field, why can't we tap the waste convert the waste, you have developed a good mechanism, some of the european countries have developed good mechanism to monetize the waste and create wealth, I had been to one of the laboratory of one of the oil measures one month back, if that that can write to the lighter when I talk to them, if this is the truth then there will be a revolution in the energy market in the world, 72% energy is there in all the urban waste and the monetized ratio is one is two three, out of three kilogram of waste we can create one kilogram value of energy out of that waste and that is affordable, that is according to their calculation it is affordable, so friends in India as a young country as aspirational country through policy reform through market friendly mechanism, through more competition we want to create a affordable energy business and that is the priority of our government and we believe transparency and policy these are the two preconditions, two assurance for more investment, more investment, more competition, more technology, more convenience, more business, more convenience to greater society, this is the primary strategy by our government. Thank you very much minister that's very very useful Mr. Bill and I'd love to ask your perspective and how you handle this in Sweden especially given the fact that it's not always that sustainability, energy supply and policy, Nestle CITY, so how did you think about that and what is your view on India's market and where do you see this going? Well thank you very much for inviting me to begin with, it's a very interesting topic I must say, I think it is important to remember that this issue is an evolving issue, sometimes when you look at what you're doing today and you could give the wrong picture that we did it just like that, it was at the time when the Swedish energy system started to evolve and to transform it was highly controversial, what actually started was the oil crisis in the 70s, the shift from oil dependency to more and more bio and more and more waste began with that and it has taken time but I think it is very important to see that it is possible, it is possible to combine a transformation of a mature energy system with economic growth. Let me give you some figures, compared to 30 years ago when we began this transformation we have now an output from the industry that has risen by 200%, a GDP that has risen with 90%, but our consumption of energy has gone down, our consumption of electricity has gone down, but I agree totally with the minister when he says well we are using much more energy, I mean compared when you look at we are in a country with 10 million inhabitants, we have an installed capacity of electricity by I think we had 26 gigawatts, if you had access to the same amount of electricity in India that would amount to almost 3000 gigawatts installed and I think the target now is 300 or you have 300 today, yeah you have 300 and an additional 175 targeted, so I can acknowledge that and I think it is important to see that there are differences between a mature system and an evolving system and you have also to respect that the mixits will be different. We have chosen now to set the path for 100% renewable system because I think it is not only the environmentally, the climate-wise thing to do, it is also from our point of view economically the most sound strategy for the future to make to have a sustainable growth for the future. So I think it is very important to say that we have a great respect that the conditions are totally different, but in the long run I think with the very rapid technological development that you are seeing today and it is something new, I mean five years ago I had the opportunity and the pleasure to to visit India and you look at the energy sector 2011 and you look at the energy sector 2016, something totally different. Of course you had solar panels at the time, you had windmills, but the cost for producing electricity has gone down so rapidly. Let me also add another perspective because as politicians we normally all over the world we concentrate a lot on the production capacity or generation of electricity or what, but from my point of view it is equally important to have a holistic view of the system, the transmission, with the development of smart grids new possibilities arise, energy efficiency, what India has done with the lead has proven to be very, very powerful. I mean let me give you an example from the very small Swedish perspective. We have calculated, our energy agency has calculated that if we change all the lightning in the country to lead we will save enough electricity to supply half of our personal transportation system off of it just by exchanging, so energy efficiency is equally important I think to provide your citizens with electricity. I have high respect for the ambition to provide all the Indians with access to modern energy. From my point of view this is one of the most important ambitions the government has because I myself was born in a small village where we didn't have access to electricity when I was born. At the age of 10 went to Sweden so how the quality of life increases, your life transforms totally when you get access to modern form of for your health, for your quality of life, for your opportunities in life, for your education, there are a lot of benefits from that so I totally support that. But I think there is also even an evolving system I think there is a possibility, there is opportunities to leapfrog in the system. We have now currently we have a current common, we have we have a project, the pilot project on the Andemann Islands where we try together to substitute the diesel generators with smart grids and renewables. We tried the same on one of our own islands in Sweden. I think it will prove to be not only manageable in the long run also the economically most efficient way of producing and using energy. So the combination of an increased investment in renewables made possible by the technological development, the development of smart grids, development of energy efficiency and I think the real game changer will be the day when storage capacity is cost efficient. When that day comes and I am totally confident that it will come, the combination of PVs, smart grids and storage will be so powerful I don't think fossil fuels or any other means to provide with energy or electricity will be possible. It may take a couple of decades, I can acknowledge that, but I think we are on the road to that and that makes me very, very optimistic. From our point of view, we have set our target on 100% renewable energy system. We do that not because we will save all the world because we know as 10 million heavens we want, but we want to show that it is possible to be a welfare society and to be fossil free in the long run. And not only as something we do because we are nice people, we believe that this will be the melody for the future. So therefore it is also the government's main strategy for economic growth in the long run. That is why we are doing it and I am pretty convinced seeing what we have done in our heating sector, a sector pretty important for Sweden, not so much in India, I think, heating sectors, but cooling sectors is more important maybe, but I mean in the mid-80s it was totally dependent on foreign oil, 100%. Today we are on our way, I think we are up to 96% renewable and waste and so on, 2%, 3% coal left. We will, I think, manage to make it 100% renewable. That transformation shows that it is possible not only viable economically, but it has also so much benefits, has created local jobs, has created local growth, and of course had a deep impact on people's health because we, as everybody else, we used to have used the waste as landfill, created huge problems of course. Now I think we are down to 0.5% of our waste is used for landfill, the rest is used for biogas, for heating, for electricity and so on, and it is very, very cost effective. To the degree that we, believe it or not, we are importing waste from Norway, we are importing waste from Italy. Very strange, but that is exactly what we are doing. Thank you very much. I will send you some from here as well then. Yeah, thank you. Lee, moving on to you. The government of India, as the minister mentioned, we have set up incredibly large targets of 175 gigawatts. Would it be great to get your perspective? One, is this something achievable? How can the US government help us from a grid perspective, from a technology perspective, from a capital perspective? Would love to get your perspectives on this. Well, thank you very much and I am delighted to be here and first of all I have to say that I certainly applaud the goal of 175 gigawatts. I mean it really is spectacular and I really do sort of recognize sort of the importance of that to what was just being said about looking at sort of a diverse group of ways to be able to achieve the energy goals. I have to say a US business is very interested in sort of helping to be able to meet those goals. What our agency does is it focuses on the early project planning and what we see is a very significant interest, focusing on renewable energy, focusing on other aspects as well, but I think one of the comments that was made also is extremely important which is to look at the whole ecosystem and one of the things that is extremely important is not only achieving those energy goals with respect to generation but also the transmission and distribution and the one thing we haven't talked about yet today is the role of the private sector and that's one of the things that our agency does. It helps bring the US private sector but we also can work very closely with both the public sector and the private sector in India and with respect to distribution I'm seeing amazing results coming from some of the distribution companies here. Our agency worked with Tata Power here in Delhi with respect to helping them create a roadmap with respect to having savings and reduction of losses with respect to the distribution. What they have been able to achieve by looking at 34 of their grids is to reduce their losses from 53% to 11%. So the goes to exactly the comment that was made is if you're reducing the loss then you don't have to generate as much or you can generate, you can continue to generate as you have economic growth. So it is a matter of looking at the entire system, looking at various forms of energy generation but a very important part about that is going to be getting that energy where it needs to go and I think some very important players in that process are going to be the private sector as well as the public sector. Great, thanks a lot Lee. And Mali from a technology perspective I think you know I see especially in renewables a massive shift from the west to the east I think if China adds 250 gigawatts in India adds 175 the majority of capacity is going to be coming up and up out of the world rather than the west so how do you see that shift happening do you think it's realistic and what are the challenges we might face in this whole thing happening? So thanks CP I think first technology has a very significant role to play in all the discussion that's going on with both the Honorable Ministers and Zach I think as you mentioned if I just take a step back TP if you look at India now I think we are past the stage of looking for dole outs and so on I think we are now a global leader that's a discussion that's been going on at WEF at the moment we've signed up to the Paris Climate Change Treaty and as Minister Pradhan said we've got to meet those objectives of sustainability affordability reliability and energy security all at the same time but to get there I think we need to use the lever of technology and I think there was a mention made about how the cost of electricity for example as one of the forms of secondary energy has come down in cost which is essentially a function of technology quite honestly I don't hear so much about that discussion of developing technology relevant to this country relevant to our ecosystem I really applaud the minister for bringing up the point about biomass as a source of energy to the best of my knowledge about 23 to 24 percent of our primary energy in this country comes from biomass the efficiency of converting that energy into a useful form into some secondary form is a woefully low single digit or you know early teens kind of efficiency just imagine the amount of output or productivity that can be unleashed if we improved efficiency and focused on what the minister just said but having said that it's got to be relevant to our country utilizing let's say solutions and affordability price points that are available here and I think again I think technology is available in great measure so I would say that TP I think the technology discussion discussion has shifted to make sure that technology is affordable rather than just being exotic in terms of what is achievable and I think that's a very significant shift I think in there's a right place for the development of that kind of technology and companies like ours are doubling down and in that initiative one last point that make is that I think from a political side pricing of energy is an extremely crucial lever and I think the more there is political will to price it close to the costs that there are of producing energy I think the more you will find not just investment but also investment in technology to actually get the whole thing going so I think we are on the right path you buy from your perspective you've now seen how things work in different parts of the world from a policy perspective what do you think our government should do more off less off to really make sure that we get this energy security balance correct in our country what more should we do to encourage renewables in our country as per me I think India need enormous energy in the next 15 years almost three times it's a great opportunity for us to build differently than what other country has built that is a great opportunity we have so it says to be based on three principle sustainable infrastructure resources affordable and it should be it should be a the low carbon economy and also it should be energy securities I think these are the principles we have a great opportunity to build so for that it is a required the policy regulatory frameworks how and what way in the next 20 years the need of energy is almost the it will go to the 200 300 gigawatt 2000 gigawatt level in next 15 years and within that energy mix how we can bring the energy security plus the affordability and also low carbon economy no doubt our prime minister has taken a prime initiatives for the renewables and it is a great things 175 gigawatt by 2022 and by 2030 it is a almost 300 gigawatt from the renewable has to come which is possible because it's a 40% penetration when sweden is moving not just 40% to 100% level and Denmark is already delivered the 40% level so it's a achievable and the possibility is there so top most is the infrastructure should be on a resource base whatever the domestic resource are available some pocket we have a call some pocket we have a gas some pocket we have a wind some pocket is a solar so the all the infrastructure plan of the grid infrastructure grid corridors it should be built on that's the direction so that will bring and for that is required a policy frameworks to support that not just need an energy requirement basis the second is the when we have a longer plan it's a policy framework should not be a shorter period because we see the the like a history of the US it's a shorter period it's not giving because it's a very high capital intensive investment we are planning for 25 years infrastructure it's required a longer term clear strategy we have a target is very clear but the framework is not yet established for the 2020 and the second most important is the pricing what my colleague has told because when we are developing the next generation of the technology we have a some initial investment but in a long run it's a cost of energy is going substantially down so the proper pricing can give and motivate the the manufacturers and the technology investment to bring the technology maybe initially one or two years a little bit expensive but in a 25 years basis it will bring down the cost of energy the substantially down so that's the the things the third is the the whatever the RPO standards should be uniform for the national level and it should be a the state level it should be enforcement to the utility company because we are targeting the renewables has to be 40% in our basket but its momentum is the utility level is not that level because all the the infrastructure is happening in the state level which is very important state has to come forward and the RPO has to religiously obligatory it should be implemented so that uniform growth of the all the part of the India can be possible and sustainable is there we have to also look to to build in a policy aligned with the our strategy of the making India because it should be homegrown technologies and we have an expertise and we are exporting the technology but same time we need a certain the balancing equipment technology we have to bring so to support the manufacturing base also to create a long-term sustainable jobs and I think this is the basic pillar of the renewable space in the building the the the energy baskets I think it's the important role role is coming also to support this technology we have to understand also the 400 million population today in India we don't have access of energy so how we can reach them on those because the constraint is the greed infrastructure it's not they cannot able to afford but the greed infrastructure has not reached up the debt level so this is the opportunity wind and solar can bring on on that categories another opportunity when we are talking about the technologies I think earlier the wind turbine technology was just 20 percent plant load factor in India the now that we have developed the technology which is the next year we are delivering it's a 50 percent plant load factor and levelized cost of energy in the last five years we have reduced down 20 percent without fiscal benefit and next five years again it will go down to the 20 percent but the biggest opportunity to bring the policy framework for the wind solar hybrid solutions because to increase the the the plant load factor in the grid level and to bring the stability of the grid because we are penetrating more renewables at one stage it will create problems so we have to plan in a such a way wind solar hybrid solution and with adding the sums the capacity of the storage I think it will go to the 65 percent plant load factor in the grid level which will become a renewable become a base load so that directions it's a thing because in the next 15 years 400 billion dollar investment will flow in the in the renewable space so we required a very concrete inclusive policy framework not the short term but it's a longer period and it should be mandated to the vendatory to the utility company and the best part is their utility should pay in time so that's the the requirement is very important. Thanks a lot Tosibar I think the last couple of points absolutely critical Mr. Pradhan our prime minister has made it very clear that from an energy security perspective he really wants to reduce our dependency on oil because I think for the future stability of our country like you were saying if we have to bring affordability to a country we need to do that so in your mind you and at the same time you also said policy reforms are needed so what kind of policy reforms are you thinking about implementing in terms of helping reducing the implement dependency of oil and at the same time making it more making it more affordable. We are taking three primary initiative as I said to augment our production to increase our production now let me say site one example in Indian onshore offshore oil industry one is west coast let's say in a west shallow water it's a not as deep as it is the east coast the production price of both the area cannot be same there must be a price according to the colleague from G rightly mentioned the cost of production is near to the market price should be near to the production price how can you do that this government has initiated the market mechanism for pre the price should be according to the market dynamics the government should not control what should be the price through this kind of policy we can augment our production number two I agree with my colleague from Sweden the efficient use of energy is also reducing your basic energy requirement that doesn't in future you need more energy as a volume but efficient use will reduce your energy energy requirement number three we have to in India I am a strong believer of renewable energy and I strongly believe if we can monetize the agri waste forestry waste and urban waste of this country we can create great wealth and this this this can solve so many problems so many problems and this can create a new economics there are some challenges there are some challenges but these are three primary way we are focusing to reduce our import dependency to augment our production efficient use of energy and alternative energy biomass from your perspective what is preventing financing you know the market is huge we need a lot of capital what do you see when you travel around the world that's holding back capital to come to India well I think we have at the moment I think we have this is a common challenge because when you have very rapid technological development creates a market a greater market risk and at the same time when you have also a high political risk because I mean that is the case of course in every democracy that you change governments now and then if the policies changes too often the risk will also and then the investors will want to have an additional return on their on their investment and I think this is this is from our point of view that has led us to to try to make a long-term agreement with our parliament we are just managed that with 80 percent of the parliament supporting it to try to reduce the political the political risk the market risk is something for the private sector to take I mean that is normal a normal market economy and normal capitalist economy so I think what we can do is reduce the political risk in a time when you have rapid development and that's the first the second I think I think we need much more partnership between countries I think as we just was discussing how can we partner with India how can we partner with public and private sector to make this investment viable because they are needed especially if you're going to have an give additional four five six hundred million inhabitants access to modern energy they are needed and I think that is that is that is the only way to make it in a time where you have not lots of lots of uncertainties because of the rapid economical technological development that we are seeing so reduce the political risk more cooperation between countries and that is also one of the reasons why why we have our Prime Minister Smith in February was discussing how can we do that between Sweden and India because even though there are huge differences there are lots and lots also common challenges with common solutions I think that is viable great thanks a lot I'll just ask one more question and then open it up to the to the audience Lee you know in 2008 in Europe the top 20 utilities had a market value of about 1.3 trillion dollars today it's about half right since September 2008 there were about 10 utilities that's close to a rating today they're barely not even five that have a rating so what's your perspective you're seeing a world where capital is skeptical of this industry because of the dynamics that are happening so how do you see it evolving over time you know going forward well I do think that there is significant opportunity but I think one of the things in addition to what was mentioned that's very important is that one you do have sort of price that is close to where production is but at the same time you also have a payment that's going to be made on time and one of the things that I think is extremely important is the sanctity of contracts and that that is one of the things that as you look at sort of where these ratings are if you look at sort of where people see opportunity it's going to be one where people find the ability to do business but also where they find that their contracts especially when they have financing contracts have the ability to be met and I think that's one of the things especially with respect to private sector and project financings that are used in some of these financings for renewables and other forms of energy today it's going to have to be a payment being made and payment being made on time because that's what finance sears look for and the private sector companies are going to take the hit and they're not in the position to do that so I think that's the other piece to this is you know clearly there's great opportunity clearly there are people who want to be in this market but to be able to attract those people you're going to have to have all the things that we talked about here today and also the ability to enforce contracts. Mr. Bailen you want to add something? Well I must say I mean sometimes we have we have this debate it's a very live debate especially since we own one of the largest company energy companies in Europe and we have seen this decline I would say that this has happened historically it happens all the time history is full of examples of huge companies not seeing the development coming lagging behind and then just goes away I mean if I may Mr. Minister the last example is this one Nokia 40% of the world market 2007 2008 2010 they sold their mobile phones to Microsoft and now I think Microsoft has just shut down the Nokia production and I think that was exactly what happened with the with the European energy they were so successful they had so high profits but they didn't see the development coming and now when we are into a totally different kind of market where producing electricity or generating this is not as as complicated and is not as expensive as it used to be zero margin cost they have to develop their business models to get paid for their product product if they cannot manage that that the history is full of such examples so I think I think the total the market as a total has to in a mature system it they have to become more of a service provider to survive if they cannot do that I don't think even though they are government loaned I don't think they will be part of the future that is that's the hard hard truth I think yeah thank you very much unfortunately I must I know miss willing you have to leave right now so thank you very much for being with us so what I'll do is open it up to any questions Mr. Goenka I'm Pawan Goenka from Mahindra in Mahindra so very insightful session thank you panelists so Mr. Pradhan has laid down very clearly that India needs affordable clean and quality energy and there will be a basket of primary energy that that we would have which includes several sources so I have three specific questions the first one on biomass minister mentioned Banmali also mentioned about how biomass could be a game changer and there are a lot of technologies that are sort of available on a small scale what do we need to do to ramp it up very quickly and the way I understand it's not even something that requires subsidy we just need to ramp up so how do we go about that how can government catalyze that that ramping up second is on solar and wind today the solar and wind power has become cost effective in terms of production and doesn't require really subsidy but the next step as Tulsi mentioned is storage when do we think storage will become affordable so that the solar and wind can really move up very much more rapidly and third one a word that is not used today by the panel is nuclear now there's lot that I hear about how new development in nuclear is allowing absolutely safe affordable clean and inexpensive energy is there any thought being given to nuclear power expanding in India thank you I can answer about one yes the challenge in bioenergy how to create a momentum I don't think there is a depth of technology technologies are there and a lot more experiment is going on so there will be app technology very soon there are there are technology and there will be a cost effective technology challenge I have once analyzed in detail what are the challenges to create it is not that there is no experiment on bioenergy or biofuels there are a lot of bio gas bio energy of different models are there but what is the challenge the challenge is raw material challenge is field stock once you will create a business model let me give one example in sugarcane who is going to give the price of sugarcane is the meal owner how how meal owner is deciding the price union government has given a minimum support price to the sugarcane without any financial contribution respective state government are announcing another price both the price are not related to market market price is something other some it is moving towards different direction so there is a mismatch there is a lot of in a democracy when you want government historically government has to announce a sugar price now there is a free market how to cope up with the aspiration of farmer those who are the original owner of field stock that is the challenge but amul is a model if I look into the sugar industry of northern India if I saw a depressing scenario I also when you're looking through the western part of the country or the Maharashtra as it milk cooperatives then I found inspiration if a small farmer can come together and they create a procurement marketing network and they can supply that in a very cost effective process why can they create a model where all our urban waste all our agri waste can create a challenge in bio energy is collecting the raw material energy decimation technology energy decimation decimation these are not the challenge only challenge the part one I think some models are there we are working on that it when we'll create a successful business model that will take in taking care of you you want to go ahead when Mali Tulsi Bhai on the other two questions so yeah Tulsi Bhai is saying he'll take the nuclear question so you meant the other way sorry I just understood what he was saying Tulsi should answer the number two whatever I want to know why how do you meant the storage you were the generator sure so if I might just add half a word on storage and I know Tulsi Bhai will add a lot I think storage clearly lots of technology but I'll just make the point that I think software coupled with analytics especially when you combine solar and wind I think and minimize the need for storage and I think that is something again in India we have the capability and I'm sure Tulsi Bhai will elaborate upon that as far as nuclear is concerned I would say that nuclear is more a I mean the technology is there it comes at a certain price point but it's a political the political will or let's say the will of the people concerned in respective countries and that's there's no right or wrong about it I think different countries have taken different parts and I think it all boils down to what's the capacity of how do you distribute liability how do you distribute risk and are you willing to pay for the risk that there is out there I think India's made certain bold moves we have to see at what price point does this all come out and let's see how this moves forward I think I would also add that I think so far India's performance in nuclear power arena in terms of operating nuclear plants has been phenomenal just the efficiency the the uptime the reliability has been phenomenal and I think ultimately if you link it back to from a security of supply of fuel I think the ultimate goal will of course rest in going down all the way to thorium which of course it will take some time but I mean that's that's maybe the part that the government is looking at but I just want to kind of make the point that it is a function of cost and the political will of the people of the country to be able to take that risk might I just add that my colleague from GE is being too modest because actually GE has some wonderful storage technology so I just wanted to throw that in as a matter of fact we've hosted delegations from India coming to the United States to see some of the technology so he's being a little modest yeah I was just leaving it for Tulsi Bhai but since she's given me a plug so we are actually in fact trying out some of those experiments in different places which also then is a function of the business model that you can have that if you can have reliable predictable power maybe there's a price point that can also come along with it but Tulsi Bhai now I agree with you first of all we need hydro gas and nuclear should be our base load we cannot only just build our economy only for wind and solar it's 40% is there but 60% base load is required where nuclear can add really good value in our country maybe a little bit expensive compared to renewable but it's bringing energy security and clean energy but we have to see the society and the government perspectives whether that is our interest or not but structurally it's required coming to the the storage I think storage is the future requirement there is a two part is the storage is there one is the the the commercial and residential base storage which is a small battery application everything which is now slowly slowly is becoming mature and everything but still expensive it's there but when scale goes up and when some manufacturing base will start country like India I think that will go down from three hundred dollar to hundred dollar it will go and by hundred dollar it will be viable I don't see the more time it will take by two zero two zero it will achieve but the most important is a utility scale because that is the big two zero two zero utility scale is more important than residential and commercial application because it's a standalone now utility scale is the the the conventional lithium iron or magnesium iron or potassium iron it's it's not be the right solution because it's a lot of technological challenges there cost is there the replacement cost is there reliability issues is there on a utility scale I think that is required a more technological innovations today people are using but naturally is is lot of in our country almost 70 80 percent area we have a wind and solar natural hedging because in a 24 hours cycle we have done the total study of the park of the solar and wind and we have found 800 megawatt of wind 50 megawatt solar will be the complimentary with the 100 megawatt of the grid so that will reduce and that will go to the 60 percent plant load factor now we have to go 60 to 70 and that's required 10 percent of the only capacity the storage so there is a two opportunity of the technology we see it not the matured and commercialized one is a the chemical storage in a utility scale which in the chemical we can store this one of the 200 giga megawatt project in Abu Dhabi is recently commissioned so that is but still it is cost is a challenge but it will come down second what we are working and planning is there we use because we are air guy so we want to use compressed air not to produce the electricity from the wind turbine straight away produce the compressed air from the wind turbine and store in a utility scales so we can remove the huge the conversions and the system so that's the new technology we are working but that is a gigawatt state scale capacity in the ground storage with the very high the storage compressed and then we can use the normal the generating plant 100 megawatts and we can produce the electricity as and when we require so that's can be the next game changer technology for the story so that's the the opportunity great any other questions i'm shan from wells upon energy my question to the minister is your personal view in terms of you know which segment within the energy space use foresee maximum growth coming from or the next 10 years in your opinion in india i don't see i always because in energy in according to me in india there are different layer of economic status will be there high purchasing group will be there medium purchasing group will be there and low purchasing group will be there i personally see i agree with tulsi by there are a lot of emphasis is going to be given on renewable energy whether it is solar wind bio anything in aji basket there will be incremental growth in this area because the business model is such a small entrepreneur can intervene and create some energy and create some business so there will be huge the scale will be growing that's a that will be area number two i'm very much hopeful about gas base energy the gas will be the new source of replacement to coal the incremental growth of bulk energy will come from gas these are the two area renewable and gas i could visualize the kind of geopolitics is changing the kind of consciousness is emerging within the country these are the two area of energy this is music to the earth for g e the gas is absolutely right minister that's the future of the whole world the gas and renewables and hydro is the future because in india there are a lot of if you create a clean energy you just take the example of daily every day national gin tribunal is giving some judgment and some issue so while it is moving it is moving towards clean energy that doesn't my friend from Mahindra is smiling because he's the he's at the receiving end he's at the receiving end he and me are at one point one agree on one point we are giving the cleanest diesel in the market but the perception the public opinion the judicial point of view is something different so i could visualize there's a lot of consensus is building up for a clean energy and these are the two way thank you i work for a spanish company call axiona and we're into renewable energy what we've seen here is that as a private sector when we try and come to a country like india to invest the health of the utilities is a very very big concern for us you know energy being a a concurrent subject there's always this clash between the center and the states and there's a huge question mark on the on the financial i would say health of the utilities to enable them to pay for a can you know 25 year period for which the the asset is is is going to produce energy so i know there are some things which are already working in terms of trying to get the the utilities more healthy but what we've seen in the last few years it hasn't caught you know the pace at which this has happened has not really given us a lot of confidence yet in you know enabling us to to go whole hog and invest in in in many states in india where even today there's a big question mark on whether you'd be paid for the energy that you that you produce so is there something being you know seen by the government which is a little different from what has been done in the past let me give one interesting example how do i see as a public practitioner of the policies let me let me give one example no party is going to yes some of my frustrated friend may assure about the free power but no reasonable responsible political party is going to assure free power in their next election manifesto energy has a cause this consensus is emerging energy has a cause that's related to utility and let's see today some years back nobody was knowing about susan but susan has developed a model i had been to one of the susan's windmill 8 10 8 set back in somewhere in the maharastra what is that what is this being windmill i was traveling in the road i saw a windmill i went to see that today the energy business is moving from government to private sectors challenging area is issues and challenging ever repayment challenging area investors assurance on its investment there's a challenge but gradually the kind of aspiration is growing we need energy how do we manage our energy energy has a cost this was not understanding 15 years back proudly i also advocated advocated for the free power because today i am not doing that not only me i am a small person not only me there is a i could visualize a consensus among the cutting across political party led whether it is a regional party or a national party whether it is a provincial government is a union government there is a relation is emerging we have to pay for the energy and i saw one gentleman some years some months back is a gentleman from coastal part of west coast of america he is now staying in india staying in bangalore and doing energy business solar panel renting business in up so this kind of model is emerging in indian market india is energy hungry country so when there is a need in market government has to bend upon and create a affordable model for investor india is moving towards that no prime minister has positioned himself 175 gigawatt of renewable energy no prime minister has so focused on gas bus energy so these are the changing phase of indian economy indian policy making please bear for some time minister as an indian i think this is the best thing you've ever said that i really believe that if the politicians do recognize there's a cost to energy and we stop giving it away for free it will i think automatically solve most of our challenges of our at least indian business companies were ashore about prime smody correct i know i know i am handling i am i am in charge of energy ministry sometime i am i am also advocating for some subsidy in the some consumer but i know how it is difficult with my prime minister no but that's fantastic but mali you wanted to add something so just a very quick point i'd say that there is also a focus that in the present system there is fair amount of inefficiency all the way from generation etc and i think there is a move to eliminate inefficiencies and thereby kind of improve the financial health of the electricity board and so on and i would argue that that's in the short term that's an excellent way of going ahead we see the government moving on that and i'm pretty sure that this will you know kind of improve things in a fairly sharp manner in a in a relatively short term also the the utility health condition i think gradually improving improving very fast maybe takes what minister has said maybe one or two years but the financial institute in india has started the financing of those cash flows so that is available now so the investors should not worry about that the the central financial institute is funding for one year or 18 months the cash flow so that is available second when the now new ipp investment is coming in india they are taking in bank is also guiding them to take a working capital for one year in the part of the business model so the cash flow should not be disturbed the delay of the some uncertainty or anything so this is the change is coming and by other initiatives i think within a one or two years our utility will be become a more healthy to to pay in time thanks a lot for that i think we're running out of time so what i'll do is quickly wrap up a few key points i think first of all mr minister i think it's fascinating that you made that statement about politicians realizing now that energies has a cost and we won't give it for free but a few other critical points i took away today one is it's very clear that the government's focus is on affordability and transparency i think that's fantastic i think that'll go a long way uh sustainability is a big issue technology is exciting to hear about all the developments uh in storage and in smarter cities and smart grids i think that's going to have a big uh big impact i think it's great to hear from the government that policy is equals predictability i think the more we can do that that we can come up with predictable policies given the fact that we are in an industry where we're investing for 20 years it's very difficult to make these investments if we don't have predictable policies so that's great that that's where we are going towards and lastly i think to your point lee i think as we develop our own legal system then the sanctity of contract gets developed i think uh the the industry will really take off so with that uh thank you very much for your time and thanks very much for coming