 تشرف بل اشتغالي بالعلم ولا تبغي به ما عشت يا دابة دلاء وياله من شراف العظيمي النعم They spoke against debating with the people of innovation Just the same way that there are verses in the Qur'an that spoke against debating The same Imam which they quoted Imam أحمد بن حبل He debated himself And as soon as he wrote that So he wrote that chart in his كتاب جامع بيان العلم وفضلي يبني عبد البر مناظرة اهل البدا Debating with the people of innovation What does the sharia What does it say regarding this matter To debate with the people of innovation Now this is where Our brothers جزاهم الله خيرا وعفى الله وعنهم يا الله Forgive them This is where they went wrong مناظرة اهل البدا Debating with the people of innovation Is not a matter where the person says That it is permissible Or he says it's not permissible It needs تفصيل It requires from the person To be able to give the reasons Or the times when it's permissible And the times when it's not permissible شيء قليسان بيبني تيمى رحمه الله In his great book دارو تعارض العقل والنقل بيبني تيمى says وامل جنسو المناظرة As for the debate in and within itself بالحق with the truth فقد تكون واجبه Sometimes it can be obligatory ومستحبه اخرى And sometimes it can also be recommended وفي الجملة In conclusion جنسو المناظرة والمجادلة فيها محمود ومذموم Within it is the praiseworthy And there is also a blameworthy type of debate That if a person debates that one Is blameworthy And there is another type of debate If the person debates it is praiseworthy ومفسده And there are some types of debates Which are harm ومصلاحة And some that hold benefits وحق وباطل It has truth in it And it has falsehood So it depends The same امام النووي رحمه الله He said He said اعلم now ان الجدالة قد يكون بحق That the debate can sometimes be حق وقد يكون بباطل And it can also be based on باطل Falsehood Or it can be incorrect and wrong And he brings the verses that say It's permissible to debate And that permit debating Or praise debating And those verses which Speak against debating قال تعالى الله says وَلَا تُجَادِلُ أَهْلَا الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِلَّةِهِ أَحْسَنِ Do not debate with the people of the scripture Except with that which is good سُرط عن كبوت آية 46 وقال تعالى الله also says وَجَادِلُهُمْ بِلَّةِهِ أَحْسَنِ Debate with them in that which is good سُرط النحل آية 125 And then he brings a verse That speaks against debating وَلَا تَبَارَكُ وَتَعَالَهِ سَدْ ما يُجَادِلُ فِي آياتِ اللَّهِ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا No one debates in the verses of Allah except the disbelievers سُرط الغافر آية 40 So the sheik then goes on to say امام النوي فإن كان الجيدال للوقوف على الحق وتقرير If the debate is based on سليدفying and explaining the truth If that is what the intent is from it كان محموداً it is praiseworthy وإن كان في مدافعة الحق أو كان جيدالاً بغير علم كان مذموما But if it is to get to push away the haq to speak without knowledge then this is blameworthy وعلى هذا التفصيل And based on that detailed explanation or that categorization تنزل النصوص الواردة All the texts that come they are put in those categories في إباحته وذمه in regards to it being permissible or it being something that the sharia speaks against So he is saying those verses that say that you are not allowed to debate are going to be put under If it is done without the haq or a person without knowledge speaking then it is something that the sharia doesn't permit But if it is done to defend the haq to solidify the haq then this is what it is it is praiseworthy and it is permissible So we have two scholars أليمام النواوي رحمة الله وتعالى and شيخ وليسان مبنوتيميا Now our brothers they used the statement of إمامه أحمد محمد in his great book Brothers what we really need to understand is and it is the biggest problem that our brothers suffer from When I looked at their مواقف their positions that they take When I look at their speeches and a lot of their lectures which they do they lack this very important matter which is The Salaf رضوان الله عليهم أجمعين In one particular matter they had 10 مواقف They had different positions regarding it And for you to come and just to take one of their مواقف one of the مواقف of theirs and to spread it out as though that was the only one إن كان هذا يدلوا على شيء If that shows something يدلوا على الجاه للعمق It shows that ignorance is rooted in that person و هذا أقوله لله والله I say this for the sake of Allah Because based on that so much matters have become It has become dismantled And a lot of مصالح and benefits were unable to be gained Because of this thought or this way of thinking The Salaf رضوان الله عليهم أجمعين They were debating with the people of the beginning They didn't have The statement that the brothers brought لم يكن مواقفهم الوحيد It wasn't their only position They spoke against debating with the people of innovation Just the same way that there are verses in the Quran That spoke against debating But they also have times when they Permitted debating Or rather they themselves debated The same Imam which they quoted أحمد بن حبل He debated himself And I'm going to bring Some of those And this is of course In accordance to the قاعدة That the ruling Revolves around its reason If the reason is present Then If the reason is good And justifiable by the sharia Then the ruling is permissibility And if The reason of the cause Or how it's going to be done Is wrong Then the ruling is impermissibility And that is a قاعدة من القواعد المقررة في أصول الشريعة It's a principle Which you will find in the books of قواعد الفقية قواعد الأصولية الحكم يدور مع إلهتي وجودا وعداما And brothers To ascribe something to the Medhab of Salaf The Salaf The pious predecessors It requires سعة العقول That your mind is open And your understanding is good And you're also able to Look at their مواقف Their positions From many angles That you don't just look at one But rather you look at it By doing a تتبع والاستقراء You follow up their actions And you follow up Their position in this particular matter Was this the only position that they took Do they have other Positions Or other saying in this matter And that is exactly what our brothers lack Both of the brothers أبو خديجة هدهم الله And both of them Rather one of the brothers He said it's a bid'ah And I'm going to come to That which he claimed to be Is it a bid'ah Or is it what Or is it not The same with أبو خديجة He said the Salaf And he said And he said And he said And he said And he said And he said And that which they have both said إمام ابن عبدالبر رحمه الله He has a book جامع بيان العلم وفضله وما ينبغ في روايتي وحمله إمام ابن عبدالبر رحمه الله He is a great Imam He died in year 463 He chapter a bab in his book He called it باب إتيان المناظرة والمجادلة وإقامة الحجة The chapter of coming to debates And establishing the proof And as soon as he wrote that Or he wrote that chapter in his كتاب جامع بيان العلم وفضله إبن عبدالبر And that chapter means what To come to debates And to debates And to argue And to bring your proofs with you And to establish the proof He wrote the ayah of Allah تبارك وتعالى ومشالله says وقالوا لن يدخل الجنة إلا من كان هودا أو نصارا تلك أماني يوهم قل هاتوا برحاناكم إن كنتم صادقين وقالوا they said They won't enter jannah except that which is a Jew or a Christian Allah then says تلك أماني يوهم That's just their delusion That is them Their wishful thinking We'll say to them هاتوا برحاناكم Bring your evidences forward In that claim of yours إن كنتم صادقين If you are truthful Tell them to bring their argument forward And to present it So the last part قل هاتوا برحاناكم إن كنتم صادقين Bring your evidences forward If you are truthful Debate وقال أن الله تبارك وتعالى Also said He brings the second ayah إبن عبد البر ليهلك من هلك عن بينات ويحيا من حيا عن بينا So the one who is going to live will live good Having the proof on his side Or the one who الله تبارك وتعالى is going to destroy He's going to be destroyed knowingly And he said بيناتوا مابانا من الحق بينات is that which becomes clear from the haq And he brings the ayah after that إن عندكم من سلطانا بهذا Do you guys have any proof in this matter عبد البر said سلطانا wherever you find it In the Quran it means حجة إن عندكم If it's with you guys means سلطانا حجة بهذا in this matter Do you have a proof That you want to provide And then after he brought those verses He then started to speak about The debates that took place between Prophet and the people Like نبي الله إبراهيم He debated نمرود من كنعان نبي الله نوح He debated his people Until they said to him يا نوح قد جادلتنا فأكثر تجدالنا فأتينا بما تعيدنا إن كنت من الصادق يا نوح You have debated And you have argued with us too much Bring to us what you promise This so-called punishment that you claim Bring it to us That's what they said to him إن كنت من الصادق If you're from the truthful ones And the نبي الله موسى He went and he debated who فرعون Who claimed what أنا ربكم الأعلى I am your supreme lord The one who claimed That everything is his أليس لي ملكه مصر وهذه الأنهارو تجري من تحت I own everything The kingdom of Egypt is mine I am the supreme lord I am the god That there is no god after But الله تبارك وتعالى Told Musa عليه السلام To go and talk Discuss it with him And to convey the message to him And they will let him Musa debated with him And الله تبارك وتعالى Told him how to talk Discuss the matter with him He said Go to Pharaoh He has transgressed He has exceeded his limits You and your brother Haroon You and your brother Haroon Both of you go فقول له قولاً لييناً When you speak to him Speak to him in a very kind And a soft manner لعله يتذكر أو يخشا Maybe insha'Allah In the way you are kind And the way you are soft And you've Shown him tenderness He may Come to his senses لعله يتذكر أو يخشا Brothers and sisters الله سبحانه وتعالى Knows That which has happened الله also knows That which is happening الله also knows سبحانه وتعالى That which is going to happen And Allah also knows That which hasn't happened If it was to happen The way it would have happened So Allah knew That Pharaoh Will not take this From Musa And that he won't come into Islam Allah knew that But Allah also Still says to him Knowing that Speak to him in a very kind way Speak to him in a tender manner Why Brothers Because it's for us الله تبارك وتعالى Is telling us الرحمة Mercy And lean Softness In your speech And not show arrogance And Abdul Bar'at He brings a debate Of Ibrahim And then Noor And then Musa He then says فهذا كله All of those تعليم من الله Allah is teaching us عز وجل للسؤال والجواب The question and the answer والمجادلة And the debate وجادة رسول الله He says And the message is debated صلى الله عليه وسلم أهل الكتاب The messenger He debated The people of the scripture Not only that و باهلهم He done مباهل with them مباهل means bring your children Bring your family members And I will do the same And we will cast one another Whoever is lying amongst us They got to bring destruction to us It's called مباهل And he brought Two verses regarding that And then he said عمر من الخطاب He debated With the Jews In the affairs of جبريل and مكائيل عليهم السلام And The messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم Also told us That Adam عليه السلام And Musa عليه السلام And both of them Debated one another as well And Allah تبارك و تعالى He said in the Qur'an About The believers debating And the disbelievers debating He said هادان خصمان ختصم في ربهم They are People Who disputed One another In the affairs of their Lord عبدالبرسد فأثن الله الله praised علي المؤمنين On the believers أهل الحق That people of truth الله praised them وذم أهل الكفري والباطن And Allah تبارك و تعالى He rebuked A spoke against The people of disbelief And the people upon falsehood And then عبدالبرسد Goes on He said و تجاد الأصحاب و رسول الله And the companions Of the messenger Also debated And argued The day of سقيفة Regarding The matter of أبي بكر رب الله تعالى عنه They also Even debated And discussed And spoke to one another Regarding The day of أباستيشن يو أهل ردة The day that The people أباستيشن عمر أهل with أبي بكر رب الله تعالى عنه عبدالبرسد When he brought All of that He said و في فصول يطولوا تكوها These are chapters and units خلوج تكبرون ان thing will go wrong ك時 middle He goes on to say After that و نظرة الضبات He debated و محمد و جد و أضع وقد إخذواهم عبد الله ملعبس وقلت وقلت مع خوارجه وقلت أفكار وقلت بكثيراً لها التي عليها قلت وقلت عبد البرسل ولول الشهرة لو لم تكن تعرف المنطقة التي أخذت المنطقة بين علي وخوارج وعبد الله ملعبس وخوارج وقلت لهم رحمه الله فقلت يا عبد البرسل قلت هذا عمر عبد العزيز هذا هو عمر عبد العزيز رحمه الله عمر عبد العزيز The Great Noble Followers عبد البرسل وقلت ، هو من ما جاء عنه عمر عبد العزيز وقلت لكم أمر من عبد العزيز is from the people who has come regarding him تغليضه في النهي عن الجدال it has come from him harshness regarding the issue of debating he was against the issue of debating hard statements have been transmitted from him in regards to not debate with the people of the innovation or not even debate at all in the matters of the religion he said is there anybody who makes his religion غرضا a thing open for everybody to discuss and he makes it his religion he discusses and debates about his religion it's out there in the open for everybody to debate with him he said excessive does he move from one position to another position to lose his religion like that but he himself he says when the matter became necessary وعرف الفلجة في قوله ورجع يهدي الله به لزمه البيان فبينا وجادلة but when he saw the necessity was there and he hoped that Allah will guide him through his debate people he went out and he clarified and he debated and he was from those people who Allah grounded him in knowledge عمره من عبد العزيز he debated also غيلانا الدمشقي who was اي قدري الامام الأوزاعي debated اي قدري الامام الشافعي debated حفص الفرد and he also even debated بشرة المريسي المعاند on the request on what بناعا على طالب أم بشر the mother of Bishra al-Marisi requested الامام الشافعي to debate with her son rather الامام الشافعي his famous quote which said ناظر القدرية debate with the qadria بالعلم with knowledge فإن أقروا افام خصموا they will be overcome وإن انكروا if they reject the knowledge in the qadr ثم كفروا their disbelievers if Allah knows things before it takes place debate with them on this issue so tell them if they are famous you've overcome them and if they reject it then they're disbelievers also there are مناظرات one of the مناظرات that is took place was جعفر ابن محمد صادق who debated with a رافضي he established a proof for him he told him فضل الشيخيني عمر من الخطاب رضي الله تعالى عنهما also عبد العزيز الكناني صحيب كتاب الحيدة he debated with the بشر المريسي العنيد when he died of what مسألت خلق القرآن and the debate is written in his book كتاب الحيدة also امامه احمد ابن أحمد امامه احمد who our brother Abu Khadija quoted and said احمد turned away from these people لا احمد debated رضي الله رحمه الله تعالى and he debated a group of معتزلة and other than them he debated امامه احمد ابن أحمد راضا امامه احمد ابن أحمد الله تبارك وتعالى benefited the umma and some people who are from innovation were benefited through امامه احمد ابن أحمد his debate and he came back to the sunnah if you go to the كتاب ابن حبان كتاب الثقات and you go to the ترجمة of Musa ابن حزامة ترميلي امامه احمد ابن أحمد debated with this individual and he was an individual who used to ascribe to the belief of the مرجع امامه ابن أحمد ثم أغاثه الله بأحمد ابن أحمد الله saved him through امامه أحمد ابن أحمد فانتحال السنة the man turned towards the sunnah وذب عنها وقمع من خالفها مع الوزوم الديني إلى امنات he deflected the sunnah from the innovators and their innovation and he stuck by the religion until he died this man this individual موسى ابن حزامة رحمه الله تعالى ابن تيميا رحمه الله who debated and he's مناظرات لا تكاد تنقضي it's hard to put a number to it he debated with الرفاعي who were a Sufi group he even went to the extreme ابن تيميا رحم الله and he went far رحمه الله تعالى to say to them because these رفاعي used to claim and they used to say that that fire cannot ban us and they used to away from the اولياء of Allah and when ابن تيميا رحمه الله تعالى answered their points they said they brought that fire doesn't ban us so he said no problem no problem he said okay all of you put over yourselves خل وينيجا and once you put those وينيجا over yourselves then we're all going to the fire because they used to claim if they're going to fire fire doesn't ban them so he said no problem they refused ابن تيميا they said okay what about just your fingers put vinegar on top of your fingers dip inside and I put it he also debated القاضي ابن مخلوف الماليكي and he's debate ابن مخلوف الماليكي is the man who said اقطل ابن تيميا تودمه على عنق kill ابن تيميا and his blood is on my neck so whoever kills him I will answer for him the day of judgment I will say to Allah Oh Allah ابن تيميا was justified in the killing of his it's something that was permissible I would say that this is the man ابن مخلوف الماليكي he debated with him also the debate in which he took place regarding his عقيدة الواسطية which ابن عبدالهادي in his كتاب العقود الضرية في ملاقي بشكل اسلام تيميا he brings it that debate of his also his debate with ابن مرحل in which he debated he debated with him regarding the issue of a شكر ابن تيميا's debate are too much ابن القيم said ابن القيم the student of ابن تيميا who died in 751 ابن تيميا died in 728 he said ابن قيم said ابن تيميا used to give fatwa and he used to debate where you died بالحق he used to debate with the truth اللي يضحيط الباطل so he can destroy and nullify the falsehood مع انواع من أمام الأرض different types of people on the face of this earth ابن تيميا debate with them على اختلاف آرائهم different views that they had he would debate with the قدري he would debate with the مرجق he would debate ابن تيميا debate with the people of different views وتنوع امداهي بهم on their methodologies and their schools of thought were different he would debate with them امام محمد الأمين الشانقيط رحمه الله العلمة الأصولي المفسق صاحب وكتاب أضواء والبيان محمد الأمين الشانقيط رحمه الله رحمة واسعة محمد الأمين الشانقيط is the teacher of عبد عزيز من الباز is the author of أضواء والبيان it was said that he called on to those the scholars of Iran he said to them come forward for debate come forward to debate and this is when they came to رابطة عالم الإسلامي and they wanted recognition محمد الأمين الشانقيط they requested for them for debate and this is written in the مقدمة of his كتاب رحلة الحج إلى بيت الله الحرام he's righteous obedient student إن شاء الله الشيخ عطيه الساني رحمه الله ما يالله المسيح from both of them he mentions that إخواني this is غيل ذوم من فايلذن it's just a small portion it's a small portion of the scholars who debated but the خلاص and a summary that we take from this all his brothers and sisters is that the believer the مؤمن الموفق the believer who is إن شاء الله إيدي بي الله he would then get to the conclusion and the student of knowledge who is upon insight على بصيرة upon insight will come to know أن هذه ثلت المباركة those large amount of individuals who I have mentioned من علماء المسلمين from the علماء of Islam they are not just علماء of Islam rather they are what من مميزيهم ومحققيهم they are the elite they are the highly ranked individuals ومن أكثرهم علمن بمنهج السلف and they were the ones who knew the most about the methodology of the self when it came to what علمن واتباعا واعتقادا in terms of knowledge in terms of following them even in terms of their creed those individuals who I have mentioned and as I said they are just a little they will never لم يكونوا ليتفقوا they will not all agree على مخالفة صريحة لمن هج السلف الصالح those people will never agree on going into opposition with the pious predecessors some of them were even from the aim of the self and they lived at the time of the self they wouldn't but why did they do it the reason why they did it brothers is because it is because they had فهم دقيق their understanding was very rooted and also they had انزال النصوص من أزلها they placed a text in its right place رحمة الله على الجميع ما يالله ماسي ما يالله تبارك واتعالها ماسي upon all of them some of you might ask and wonder a debate with أهل البدا or even the people of the scripture doing it is permissible you've proven that to us but the question that we have is why did you do it publicly why was it done out in the open for everybody to see it قتادة من الدعامة السدوسية رحمة الله he said he said if a person introduces an innovation ينبغي it is needed ينبغي لها أن تذكرها it should be mentioned his innovation should be mentioned حتى تحضر so it can be what so it can be wound against and we can tell the people to stay away from it so we mention it so the people can stay away from it also بشر من الحارث statement is more explicit and clear he says a man asked him a man asked him a person is with people of whims and desires in a graveyard في موضع الجلازة he's with them in the graveyard فيتكلمون they speak ويعرضون and they present battle to the people فترى لنا أن نجيبهم do you see that we should reply back to them فقاله إن كان معك if amongst you is إن كان معك if amongst you is من لا يعلم with those who don't know there are general maswa with you people who don't know فردوا عليه refute him لأن لا يرى so they don't see أولئك أن القولك ما يقولون so the people don't see that the speech is as these people are saying وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ أَنْتُمْ but if it's just you guys alone وَهُمْ you and them only فَلَاَتُكَلِّمُهُمْ don't speak to them وَلَاَتُجِبُهُمْ and don't reply back to them but if it's a place where general maswa refute them and speak to them and also the assault of the debate that took place between the prophets and their nations were public وَإِمَامُ أَحْمَدِبْنَ حَمْبَلِ the debate was done in the open so for you to say that it's not permissible to do it out in the open without any conditions stipulated to it as the imma and the ulama did then this is كذب ونفتع it's lying upon the مدهب السلف and it's also lying upon this religion and one of us should really fear and we should fear Allah تبارك وإتعالى in matters like this to speak about a matter we have no knowledge of and for us to reject يُنقر ماليسة بِمُنقر to reject that which isn't even evil or for us to prevent عن المعروف something which is good in which the sharia has legislated for us to prevent it the person should be very scared of that and we ask Allah تبارك وإتعالى to give us guidance and to give us the ability to follow the Haq