 just strengthening their training programs, those things they think are gonna prepare them for where they wanna go in 2023. Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition. All right, everybody, welcome to Smarter Building Materials Marketing, where we believe your online presence should be your best salesperson. I am Zach Williams, alongside my co-host, Beth Popiklov, and today we're talking about changes that we see that are happening in the market, specifically in relationship to builders, contractors, and other audiences that manufacture this target, and we've got an awesome guest on the show with us today. Beth, you wanna introduce her? Absolutely, I'm really excited to be able to introduce Heather Bowman. She is the Director of Marketing for Keylink, and she is coming into the studio today to talk to us about what they're doing and the great conversations they're having with builders and contractors. Heather, thanks so much for your time. Welcome to the show. Oh, thank you. It's always a pleasure to speak with both of you. I know that you are not a stranger to the podcast, but just for those in case they missed your original episode, can you give us a 30,000-foot view of who Heather is and what you do at Keylink? Absolutely. So I'm the Director of Marketing. We have a marketing team here that functions and serves our internal sales and business development teams, as well as our human resources in the various departments within both the superior plastic products and the Keylink Concealing brand. So I've been here, it was three years on December 2nd, and it's been a while, three years, but an incredible place to learn and grow, and I'm just really fortunate to work with a lot of smart, talented people, too. So that makes going to work every day a lot of fun. So Heather, we were chatting a little bit offline before we started recording, and the thing I'm really curious to get your perspective on is you've got a really good vantage point into what changes that are happening with audiences, what things they're saying, what they're worried about. And so I'm not looking for a specific answer. What would you say is happening in the industry that manufacturers need to be aware of? Like what are the one or two things that you hear that are really important for people to know about as we're heading into this next year? That's a really good question. What we focus and we bet on contractors, that's sort of our mantra here because we know that contractors influence the channel and they influence the sale with the homeowner. I think what we're seeing is that there's still a lot of optimism from the contractors that we work with. They believe that there's opportunity and they are definitely unsure of what the landscape is gonna look like from month to month even, but they feel pretty confident that a lot of the foundation that they've laid in place, whether that be working on their brand or building out their team or even as we talked about before we went live, just strengthening their training programs. Those things they think are gonna prepare them for where they wanna go in 2023. The other thing I would add to that is we really focus on working with contractors to value what we value. So we're talking about contractors who view themselves as professional, who really strive to create a legacy company or impact their communities, not just the one shop guy, if you will, but contractors who are focused on building their reputation within the community. Heather, you will do something a little unique with your customers, which is part of what you do is you have them come in and see how Keylink products are made, get them into your factories and really build that relationship with them. But you beat me to the chase because I was going to ask you, sometimes it's even though we can be in a not so quick to change industry, things happen really quickly. How do you see contractors responding to those conversations when they wanna work with you or use your product and your responses often? Hey, well, why don't you come and see how it's made and meet the team? That's a great question. We've seen in the last year a much more openness and willingness to make time for professional development and training and product development. And I think you build some momentum because we know that in this industry, one of the things that makes it great is the fact that there's a lot of chatter. People talk to each other, they really trust each other. And so I think once you have a positive experience with one or two influencing contractors or partners in a certain region, then you're able to build on that positive experience and it makes other people more open to doing it. But I would definitely say to just answer start of your question, we're seeing more people open to that because they're recognizing the value and they want to be a leader in their industry and they know that in doing that, they have to take time to develop professionally and to learn more about the products that they're selling. I think you're hitting on a really important point here, Heather, which a lot of people don't think about when we're trying to market, let's say a building product. And a lot of times we think, oh well, my building product is better or has X, Y, Z feature or whatever it is. When you're talking about contractors, the thing I love that you're talking about is that you didn't even mention your product at all. Well, our product is better, Zach. Just give it. Well, I know, I mean, I think it's a given. I think it's a given, but whatever. But what I'm, gosh, I really teed that up to that question as well. You did, you did. What I'm getting after here is that you have such a good perspective on what actually matters to them that they're thinking about that's keeping them up at night, which is how do I have the workforce to support the demand in my market? And then if I'm doing a good job in growing my business, what kind of legacy am I leaving? What am I doing to help my community? It's all of these things that most contractors and pros think about, like the ones that are really growing their businesses are thinking about that most manufacturers don't realize like that's the opportunity you have as a manufacturer is like, yes, have the best product, right? But also how can you help them achieve the more altruistic state that they want to create? And so they're viewing you as a partner to help make those things happen, which it sounds like, you know, looking at your studio for those that aren't, aren't watching, they're listening, you know, Heather's got a phenomenal studio that she uses for training and things like that too. And that's, that's a big part of what you guys are after as well. Is that correct? Yes. That's something that our VP of sales and marketing has been preaching about since he came and joined the team a few years ago. And that's just training, training, training. And we're, you know, we are at a point now where that is something that we're not perfect at, but we are really starting to see the benefits of investing in that area. I think what contractors are wanting is partnership. They're wanting to walk alongside of a manufacturer, dealer, distributor. They're wanting that support because they're so stretched in a lot of different ways. And so if we can make it easier for them from a marketing perspective by giving them tools or sharing content or training, any of those things, they just are super interested in because it takes one thing off their to-do list and just, you know, allows them to focus in other areas. So that's something that, you know, we always try to strive for. How can we make it easier for the contractor? If we make it easier for the contractor, it serves the whole channel better, which is ultimately what we want to do. We believe in the channel, that distribution dealer, contractor partnership. Did I answer your question, Zach? I think I did. Yeah, you did. And I just want to make sure I note again, that I wasn't saying that your product wasn't good. No, I know you were. I never even thought that. I just wanted to put a plug in for how great it is. It is truly. Yeah, so I mean, that's the thing that we value a lot about contractors because they're going to be honest with us. They're going to say, you know, your product, we like this part of it, but we don't like that part of it. Or if you just had lighting, or if you just did this with this product, we could sell way more of it. So we really take those conversations to heart and we really think through, you know, obviously we want to make sure that it's multiple contractors feel that way. If we're going to roll out a new product, but there's so much information that we learned from talking directly to the contractor and how we can do better as a manufacturer. Can I bring up something else that you said a minute ago, which you're talking about, how you would serve one contractor and then word would get out to other contractors that, hey, you all should talk to Keylink. This is a really important part of marketing that a lot of people don't think about, which is the conversations that happen offline or in the DMs, if you will, of like, hey, I've worked with so-and-so, like I can't tell you how many contractors, builders, architects, we talk to that like, they will just message each other, whether it's through text or social, whatever, and go, hey, I saw you posted that product, do you, can you tell me about it? Like, as a marketer, it's horrible because you're like, I don't know, I can't track those conversations, I can't add a dollar value to that, but I know that it's happening. And so what I want to hear from you is, how are you trying to influence that word-to-mouth component in the areas of social or offline that you can't measure? And what kind of success are you all seeing there? We see a lot of success through Instagram. When we have a heavy presence there, we post on Story Daily, we post multiple times a week, and we plan and outline what our content is gonna be and what our goals are for that content. So what we do on Instagram is very purposeful, and I say that to lead into the fact that we also showcase a lot of the contractors' products and share what they share with us, and those are always, no matter how well we plan and what great, amazing content we have, a lot of our very top posts are focused on one sharing or resharing another contractor's work of art, and that just generates a lot of great conversation. I don't know how to measure that, I think I just measure it by momentum and just seeing a growth, steady growth over Instagram in terms of quality followers. Obviously, everybody has fake followers and just people that really won't move your brand in the direction you want it to, but they follow it on Instagram anyway. But yeah, I would say one thing would be just increasing followers, just getting, when we're out in the field, so we have a business development trainer team, and when they're in the field, they hear a lot of feedback because they're there, boots on the ground, talking to multiple contractors. I think that's another way to measure it. And then just looking at the sales that follow. But that's a good question. I think I probably would need to think about that a little bit more, but I hope from a high level, that gives you a solid answer. I want measure by momentum on a T-shirt. By the way, I think it's so phenomenal. Well, it's a great way to quantify something that feels very intangible, right? Because to Zach's point, those conversations that happen in DM, we can't track them. Even though they're, that's ROI, right? Like a contractor telling another contractor, I use this product, I love this product. And then that contractor is significantly more likely, if not guaranteed to go purchase that product the next time it comes up in a project. But that's never showing up on your, that's not showing up in your CRM, that's not showing up in your marketing attribution. But to understand, if we're doing quality things and getting quality engagement, engaging and meeting our audience in a way that they find meaningful and impactful, the way that we measure that is by seeing that engagement, that response ever increase. The one thing I'd say that we've seen work well when it comes to tracking these things, Heather, and this is for our listeners too, just to keep in mind is self-reported attribution, which is a fancy way of asking somebody how they found you. Because you wouldn't believe this, but if you use Google Analytics to say, hey, that form fill or that lead that came through, that was driven from Google, like yes, that was a traffic channel that's not necessarily how they heard about you. And so for example, from our standpoint, a lot of people that we talk to, people that become clients of ours, they listen to our podcast, and they'll say, hey, I heard your podcast, but then we look at the analytics, and analytics is like, oh, well, it got driven via an ad or SEO. So there's traffic attribution, and then there's user attribution, which both are really, really important and valuable. But understanding to your point, having a strategy to say, hey, if your guy's down the field, like, hey, how did you find out about us? And he's like, oh, I talked to Bill at that other job site, or I saw XYZ person, it was on their truck and I checked you all out. Like that kind of thought process to go, what marketing that we can't measure is actually working, or to best point, like what's creating momentum is I think gonna become more and more important to manufacturers, especially looking at how these big tech companies are trying to remove our ability to measure things. If you look at what Google's doing, we had an episode about this recently, what Google's doing and the amount of data that they're willing to give us, you wouldn't believe it, but like they're trying to actually remove that, unless you spend money on ads, and that's a different story. Never saw it coming. Can I ask you a question about that? Yeah, go ahead. Because we, so you talk about that a lot, I've heard you mentioned it a lot, and it absolutely makes sense, and we're seeing and constantly being asked, how do we solve for the fact that we can't measure everything, track everything that Heather is being really intentional and thoughtful about her social media presence? And if I had a dollar for every time a manufacturer asks me, why, what's the ROI of social media? I would have many, many dollars, right? How, I have like two questions, hopefully they're not too leading. How accurate do you think someone's self-reporting is? Let me ask you that, and then I'll ask you a follow-up question. How accurate is? I think it depends on how personal the question is. So if you ask me on a form fill, like, hey, how'd you hear about us? They may tell you, but in conversation, anecdotal conversation, like the actual true conversation you're having with somebody. So in Heather's standpoint, like they all, let's say they land a new contractor, that's something they've been going after, I guarantee you, like that person's not gonna go, hey, I only heard about you in one place. They're gonna be, hey, I saw you here and I saw you there and I saw you here. And like that, that did it for me. And so it's not gonna be one thing only. And I think that's, I mean, you talk about this, that a lot. It's like the omnichannel multi-touch component. You have to be all places. I would 100% agree with that, Zach. I mean, that is what we hear from contractors. We saw, we attended a dealer day and we went and visited your Sprinter Van or your mobile trailer and we were able to touch and see products live. And then we went on Instagram and we were started following you and two months later, we're gonna be at IBS and we'll stop by your booth. So I think that is absolutely the key and that I think as marketers, that's what our goal is. We want them to be in all of those places and sometimes I'm okay if they don't necessarily remember exactly where they came from. It may not be 100% accurate, but if they remember something, that's good. I would also say, you gave me a great idea, which is I don't think that we have our business development specialists who are in the field talking to contractors, training them on the program. I don't know if in that form we asked them, how did you hear about Keylink? So that I think I might add that to their debrief report. That's a really good idea. Well, I also like to ask people like, hey, where are you going for product information and specifically who are you following on social? Because every single product category has like a couple of people that speak to, hey, here are the things that I like. And it's the reason why influence and marketing is growing. And so prioritizing those relationships with people that have that kind of influence is really important. The other thing I was gonna mention here too is that self-reported attribution is really, really important. But I also think that there's value and this is something you all do, Heather, that's important is not everything is trackable but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to track it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try to optimize for it because marketing is becoming more and more multi-touch. So I think you guys are doing it the right way for what it's worth. Aw, thanks. So I think part of the reason I was asking that question is I want Heather to get the credit is really what I'm going after. Oh, there we go. Geez. I want Heather to be able to get the feedback of it was here and here and here and you teed it up perfectly, Zach, which is it's not a single thing. It's not, which means it's difficult then to choose where you push in and how, based on how you're measuring. And you said it perfectly, which is there isn't a single one thing where I saw an ad and I bought the thing from that ad. That's not the world that we live in. And I think just for our listeners making that part of the conversation when you're going and advocating for marketing budget and talking about the pieces that we're investing from a marketing channel standpoint that feel a bit more intangible or subjective and understanding that original principle that we all knew back in the day, which was, you know, there's a hundred different numbers, but each sale took 18 touch points, six touch points, eight touch points depends on which article you read, but that now those touch points are part of our marketing and a lot of times it's not a single conversation. It's not an email necessarily from a single person, but it's the ad that they saw. It's the Instagram post. It is the IBS booth and making all of those pieces part of the puzzle. I was just, I really appreciate how you teed that up of setting the stage of it all, it basically, it all matters. So you have to do everything is what the today's show is about. And that's a daunting task. You know, when I started in marketing, I think I'm not that old, but it sounds old when it comes out of my mouth. I mean, we didn't have email marketing. It was in its very infancy stages. We did a lot with direct mail. And again, I'm not that old, but the other piece of it is, that's where it's so important. And I know Beth, we've talked about this to have a really strong brand and a brand story because if any of those channels, if you're gonna be in all the channels, you have to make sure that your channels tell a consistent story and position your brand in the same way, because otherwise you'll break trust. And there's so much competition. If you lose trust, it's always harder to get it back. So that's the other thing that we really work on. And again, we don't do anything perfectly, but we really try to make sure that that story is told in a true way. Now I'll add one more point to that, which I think is something that I am seeing more and more as I read different publications and talk to my peers is just the fact that it's more important than ever for the marketing team to work with the sales team, the product team, the business development team, the finance team, and oh, sometimes that's so painful. We just wanna create what we wanna create or our ideas are what we think are the best. But for 2023, I mean, I just, and beyond, just really believe if we wanna keep our budget strong and keep our teams strong and grow our company that it's gonna take more of a collective team effort to make it and succeed moving forward. There's a meme that got passed around our organization where I'm gonna send this to you after our podcast recording, right? It's good, it's good. It shows like two guys, they're having like a great time, they're like high-fiving, laughing, and then there's like a guy in the background staying next to them who looks like completely dejected and just like defeated. And the headline for the meme is like, it's like the person who's dejected, it's like the marketing person who had 25 touchpoints and then like the person who's high-fiving is like the sales guy who just closed the sale who thinks it's like, he's the one, he's the guy who won it. Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly right. That's a great one. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there are salespeople that would really believe that, but it is true, it's like they get to feel the win because they're the ones who closed the deal, but you're the one who has been setting the stage for however long to make it happen. I think, I love hearing you talk about needing to work closer with sales, but also, I mean, working with your CFO or your finance team, as you mentioned, I think how many marketing departments are doing that? Oh, we need to, I think it's so important. Because you understand what drives revenue and if you can show tangible revenue attribution or revenue generation, it allows you to keep your budget and allows you to do more of the things you just talked about, experimentation and doing more fun things as a marketing department. And so I think you guys are ahead of the game. Yeah, maybe, we try, right? Yeah. But I think at the end of the day, it also goes back to something that we talk a lot about at our company, which is just valuing people. And if you value the contractor, then you create things for the contractor. You create things that they need because you value their time and you value your relationship with them. And so you'd spend the time to talk with them. I think, going back to what you said earlier, the contractors are starting to see that too. They're starting to see that and everybody in the channel. We can find value if we work together. And I hope that doesn't sound too mushy, but I think there's a lot of truth there. It does, at the end of the day, come back to that human connection, which I think can be made even more incredible when you integrate digital platforms, when you integrate all of those things together. It just makes life more fun and also challenging, but it definitely, all those things have to work together really well. That's great. Heather, again, thank you so much for taking time to come on our show. This has been so insightful. If our listeners want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Certainly feel free to connect with me at LinkedIn, follow both our Keylink and our superior brand on Instagram. It's a great way to connect with us as well. So those two options would be a good first step. Awesome. Heather, again, thank you for coming on the show and for our listeners. Sure. If you enjoyed this podcast, also check us out at benvio.com slash podcast to subscribe and get more. Until next time. Thanks everyone.