 Okay, so suppose you agree with Plato. You think that forms not only are real, but that their objective knowledge they're known for reason, they are eternal and the universal. Okay, well, you're not out of the woods. I mean, first of all, it's kind of a strange thing to say, right? There's these things, literally infinitely numerous things that exist independent of our ability to perceive them, right? So empiricism goes out the window, right? I know about these forms independent of experience and they're separately existing from all these things. Probably, by the way, many numerous further kinds of forms. I mean, we talked about the form of dinosaur existing, even though dinosaurs don't. Well, what about all the forms of critters that never really started existing? Because you know, the form of dinosaur started before dinosaurs. So there's all kinds of critters that exist regardless, oh, sorry, how kinds of forms of critters that exist, whether any particular case came up. So I don't know, the duckbill giraffe. Sure, the flying hippopotamus. Okay, all right, these are forms. All right, so you've got to, you're committed to the existence of a lot of these things, infinitely many things and some bizarre things that exist that have never been seen and can't be seen. You can't causally interact with these forms. So that's one big thing right off the top. You're committed to the existence of these, probably a little bit crazy things. That's one big thing. Another big question you have to be able to answer as well is you have to answer how you know them. All right, so Plato says reason, but he probably means something different. I know he means something different by reason than you do. For Plato, what he means reason, he means specifically recollection. So let me just, let me just give an example, right? So for Plato, you know these forms already. They're somewhere in your head. But you know, sometimes you have to be reminded of them, right? And you're reminded of them of these particular things. So, okay, so think of it this way, right? So we have this figure here. What is it? Right, it's a square. Okay, now take a look, see what happens. Okay, so what's a square composed of? Right, what figures make up a square? Right, good. Right. By the way, it doesn't, more than just squares, right? Any rectangle, right? So look at this, of a variety of shapes, right? It's still there, right? It's still composed of these other figures. Well, that's, that's rectangle. What about the five-sided figure? Pentagon? Same thing? Sure. In fact, there are as many of these smaller figures as there are sides. So you kind of keep going. What about a six-sided figure? Hexagon? Yeah, sure. There it is again. A seven-sided figure, I think it's called a heptagon? Yeah, same thing. Eight-sided figure. Right. Okay, so here's a question. Could we keep going with these different-sided figures? Composed of these smaller ones? Yeah. Right, we could keep going. You know, try to imagine, I mean, is there, is it possible that there's a sided figure like this that is not composed of these triangles? Now, circles don't count, right? Circles aren't composed of sides. They, they have arcs, right? That's something different. But I'm just talking about figures, right? These, composed of, where sides were, are line segments. Yeah, it doesn't matter how many sides you have, it's composed of these triangles. It's composed of these triangles. You just keep going. Okay. Well, let's get back to, I mean, we started with rectangle. Alright, that's great. What about triangles? Here's the triangle. Is it composed of something smaller? Okay, is it a particular kind? Right. We got a particular kind of triangle there. What about this side? This triangle, right? You know, still composed of the further kind of triangle, right? If you not remember your geometry, it's a right-sided triangle, right triangle. Let's try this one. Yeah, again, composed of right triangles. In fact, you know, look at all these different kinds of triangles that we have. They're composed of right triangles, including, by the way, right triangles. Now, if all figures are composed of triangles and all triangles are composed of right triangles, what figure composes, what figure composes all figures? That's right, right triangles. Now, you have not seen all figures, yet you know this about all figures. And, you know, I really spill the guts until the end. You should have been able to answer these questions as I was posing them, right? Just with these particular examples, particular cases. Now, from the knowledge of the particulars, you have now, not learned, but remembered something, correctly, to remember something about all figures, all of them. Never mind the fact that you never seen all figures, right? At most, you've seen some particular cases, right? So, you've learned that about all figures. And that that's infinite, that's literally an infinite number of objects out there, right? Because for whatever figure that exists, you could always add one more side to it. So, now you've learned about all of them. You'll learn something about infinity, infinity. But you don't have time to experience all of that. So, Plato's point here is that you know this through recollection. He says, you have this object of knowledge, you have to be reminded, sure, but you have this object of knowledge about all figures. Well, how did you get that objective knowledge about all figures? Well, Plato says, well, there was a point in time where you existed with the forms prior to your birth, your physical birth anyway. Birth was traumatic, caused you to kind of forget. So, you spend your life being reminded of all forms. Now, for him, that's what reason is, is this recollection. I seriously doubt you subscribe to his account of reason. And that's fine, right? I'm not saying you have to. But if you're not going to use that, what are you going to use? Because now you have to explain. I mean, the example is still a good one, right? You now have knowledge about an infinite number of objects, namely all figures. They're all composed of right triangles. How did you learn that? How did you come to know that? Because it wasn't through experience. Because you didn't experience all the figures. How'd you come to learn about the infinite? If we say it's reason, great. What is that? So, if you accept Plato's view, you've got to account for this.