 My name is Chuck Wilhelm. I'm the moderator of this program. I'm in charge of business development for End Light Energy, Energy Efficient Lighting Company. We have three panelists. The first of the three panelists is Terry Clark. I'll introduce him as we go to try to speed things up here. Terry is the founder and chairman of Vine Light, a provider of energy efficiency lighting systems. Since we're a little late, I would refer you to the bio, which gives you a little more information on it. Terry, do you want to step up here and do your presentation? Thank you, Chuck. So we'll load this up and as it's loading, this is a session where we're going to start at the specific and then really go up to the general. So I was asked to say, hey, Vine Light makes very high efficient light fixtures. Our fancy word is luminaires and we make light fixtures with the best quality super T8 fluorescence. We make light fixtures with LEDs and so people come to us and say, hey, we got a lot of questions. Which is better? Which is going to last longer? You heard life cycle testing today. So that's what we're going to talk about is really a straight talk in this LED world. So if you haven't seen a super T8 lamp, they've got a good thousand hours. They put out 3,600 lumens. And we're going to use LEDs. You haven't seen an LED? They're that kind of pretty good. So the question is hey, which way should I be going if I'm planning a building? I'm doing a corporate retrofit. So let's look at it. Are LEDs more efficient? Well, you know, it's a big pack of LEDs. It's a new technology. The very best of the best LEDs are getting slightly better, about 10%, 12% better than the very best fluorescence. But don't fall in the trap because this thing does no useful work. And this doesn't do any useful work. It needs a driver. It needs to get power from the building. It needs to be in a light fixture that deals with glare and deals with activity. So the real question is hey, how does a luminaire or light fixture compare to a light fixture? And this is where you really get into the line and this is all going to be online. So these are really reference slides. But basically the gap when you're choosing an LED light fixture can be 58 lumens per watt. So think of that like a car, 58 miles a gallon or 115. Your range is huge. So if you're dealing with a designer or an architect and they have an aesthetic, you all need to ask them what are the implications of those choices? Am I down toward the 58 lumens? Or am I up really at the high end and is the high end a glare bomb? Yeah, I got my miles per gallon, but it's just hilarious can be. T8s are more mature. It's a narrower range. So the very best LED is maybe 10% better, but if you don't have a guide, check it out. Four out of five times you're going to make a mistake. If you can't sort good and bad, don't have an expert, 80% of the time you're going to guess wrong. But how about long life? All of you have heard, hey, these are semiconductor things, long life, right? Again, it's a very mixed message. These fluorescent lamps last about 80,000 hours to 90% light output. And then they fail and turn off. They just stop working like some of these up here. LEDs don't do that. They dim and dim and dim like fading blue jeans. And any of you who have daughters or nieces, you have a heck of a debate. When a blue jean reach end of life, you know, you're preppy, you're like, knees. I can't take much light loss. They end quick. You're down at the ripped blue jeans. You have other debates. This is the way LEDs go. They don't turn off. So again, you have to know in this very, very wide range, it's new technology, but there is no silver bullet there. But then you get into, okay, how about life cycle cost? And this is where you get into their lies and their damn lies. The very best LED luminaires have extraordinarily long life. When you run them cool, when you really engineer it right, we can run full on for about 12 to 15 years with no maintenance person ever touching it. Other LED based luminaires are not serviceable, not repairable, and the message to a Stanford or an end user is, don't worry about this, right? How many of you are using 10 year old cell phones right now, right? Hey, this is semiconductor technology. In seven years, the world will be great. Don't worry about it. They'll just throw these away and it's not a big deal. How many of you know that you can't throw this away? It's seismically connected to the building structure by law. You cannot remove that without getting a big ladder, moving a ceiling tile, mechanically unhooking a side. This 12 gauge wire is never made to be unhooked. It comes out looking like a pigtail of a pig, so you kind of have a $100 an hour electrician unweaving it, but it's got to be up twice, so then I move another ceiling tile and I take it off. But then I've got power to it, right? I got to unhook the power. I'm disposing it. If I cut power to this room, it gets dark. I got to bring in a whole other light source. Then I take that, I give it to an apprentice who walks it to the back end. You walk in a new one. You're talking $400 or $500 to replace a disposable light fixture, instead of your budget is built on maybe $8 to replace a lamp? Do you think that might have consequence to a school district or a health care provider when suddenly in seven years I'm looking at $400, not $8? And that's why these are ugly. These are bad things and they're being promoted by A plus companies because I don't think they understand what's going on. The bad is these light engines are going to work about as good as a fluorescent. This is $3. This is $18. Why would I ask my client to spend $18 instead of $3 if they're going to last the same time and they have the same high quality lighting? So you better know how you can sort the good from the bad in the ugly. The good news is it's kind of easy. In the lighting industry there's a new non-profit called Design Light Consortium. They test it, they make sure you have the data, they make sure the utilities are happy, there's no problems. Make sure they're dimmable. Why? Because demand response is coming. We're going to need to prepare for the controllable space. Put them in today. Even if you don't fully dim them, it's easy to retrofit them. L90 is the buzzwords in the industry. Make sure you'll have 90% light maintenance at 80,000 hours. Make sure they're serviceable and get a 10 calendar year warranty. If you work with your architect, you work with your internal folks, that is the threshold. But then people say, well hey, semiconductor technology. Don't worry, it's easy to control, right? No, what's controlled is the driver. I can dim fluorescent lamps, I can dim LED, I can use proprietary, I can use open architectures. You can control either of these equally well. There isn't any magic semiconductor bullet that puts a computer on the chip next to this. And that's not going to happen for a decade. So what's the final message? Is look at the lighting plan first. Best practice, and some of my colleagues will talk about this, is about a half a watt a square foot. It's been demonstrated time and time again. Did anybody count the lights in this ceiling? This was built about 12 years ago. We're running about 1.5 watts a square foot here. So we're putting three times the energy you need in this training room right now than with today's best practice. So the message is put task lights on the desk. That's what the aging eye needs. Put a little light on the wall. When you do that, you're connected low. Your lighting load will go down to half a watt a square foot. And my final message is use absolute metrics. Please don't fall into the trap of these percentage things you read about in energy news. Oh, I'm going to say 40% energy. They don't tell you the baseline. If you're at half a watt a square foot, you're doing really well. And if you're not, start asking the questions, why? Because that's just a huge cost. Finally, again, this is going to be online. Here are the great links. You can get to these with fine light. But the US Department of Energy, South State Lighting, many of these presentations are online. And so we would encourage you, again, to dig into the data. The good news is if you're in that top 2%, every benefit you can dream of is going to come back to you. But you want a guide. You need a guide at this point in time. Thank you. Thanks very much, Terry. Our next speaker is Kelly Cunningham. Kelly is the Outreach Director at the University of California Davis Lighting Technology Center. And Kelly is responsible for marketing and outreach at the Center's Research and Technology Demonstration Projects. And she waits me in the efforts to deploy new energy-saving technologies into the broader markets. I would refer you to her bio for more information. There's a way to start this with Kelly Cunningham. Thanks. So while I'm loading my presentation, I could see a show fans real quickly. Who here would consider themselves a lighting expert? A couple? How about a lighting novice? I'm learning about it. All right, the majority audience. So that helps me kind of frame it. So CLTC does a lot of things. We are a lighting research lab at UC Davis. But what we do best is attempt to survey the landscape and put out things that are applicable broadly across different groups of end users. And for today, I have a lot of information about that on our website. Contact me later on your specific need. What I'm going to do today in the 15 minutes I have is try to expand a little bit on what Terry was saying in terms of LEDs. Are they ready? Maybe point out some places where we're trying them or we're seeing good results and where they may be ready. But emphasize, and these are those places, you know, exterior and interior. Of course, then that covers all built environment spaces. But what I want to emphasize, and if you're a novice or an expert, this will either serve as a reminder or as Kelly's lesson that I hope you leave with if you start checking your email and tune out right now, it's the right source with the right luminaire with the right controls for the application. So this echoes what Terry was saying about bringing in an expert or bringing in a designer or just considering this is a holistic effort that lighting is part of your energy infrastructure. It's not just one piece that you can plug something new in and that's it. And it's part of the infrastructure needs to be continually revisited to make sure you're maximizing and driving towards that half a watt per square foot and then below, because that may be our best practice today but there's always a tomorrow and that energy isn't evolving a continual story. So nothing else, it's not just, whoa, that's awesome. We can get rid of this right now and replace with LED and we're done and LED's the last thing. We don't know that either. It's the whole system we need to look at. So I'm going to dive in and look at a few projects where we are using LEDs right now. Some places receive great opportunity for what's available on the market and then I'll talk a little bit about other things as we go. So one project I'd like to direct your attention to is UC Davis's recently executed networked exterior project that we just did with over 1,400 points today of Connected Light using a wireless RF network on campus that does more than just energy benefits. If we just look at the things that these 1,400 points replaced and if we just look at energy savings and that percentage that Terry talked about, we're saving 70% approximately over what we have before. But really, when we get past that number and start looking at other things, like what can we do with 1,400 points of occupancy data? What can we do with light as a communication device to change the way that people move throughout the campus? What can we do with utility grade metering at 1,400 points to understand if 70% is real or an estimate and what its relevance will be over the lifetime of those particular fixtures? So this is a project that, yes, was just deployed. So when do you want to check in with us to see how it's doing today and then again next year and again after that. But it is a really exciting new project that I hope that you will be able to take a look at at some point. And just to give you an idea of what 1,400 points looks like at the UC Davis campus, all those red dots are now communicating together and they are all LED. Now the campus decided to do this project, not CLTC as a guiding voice. So they do absorb the responsibility for it and I get the privilege of being the researcher who said, hey, you should try this out and then they get to maintain it. But we're heavily invested in also using it as a test case for what can we deliver to other universities and corporate environments and all the other types of properties, municipalities that might benefit from this. And they are, this is 1,400 points of bi-level lighting as well. So when you're not there, the lights are at a reduced percentage. And is it a percentage that creates a gloomy and scary atmosphere for all of the different students and faculty and staff that travel throughout the campus 24 hours a day? Absolutely not. But it is a reduced light level so that if you're not there, why are you using the energy to bring lights to that space and why are you putting pollution into the night sky that doesn't need to be there in the form of light? So we've also networked together all these different applications. So far we're hearing tons of buzz about street lights and LED. Well, what about wallpacks? And for those of you who are new to lighting and have not yet been blessed or cursed with seeing wallpacks, bollards, downlights, all these things that we don't notice because we're under the glow of these main devices, they are everywhere. And the goal is not to just select one of those such as just the street lights. They will communicate together in a group. But instead, how about the entire network including multiple types of devices? So wouldn't you be upset if you purchased your laptop and it refused to talk to your phone and it refused to talk to your computer in your car and you had one thing at a time? Well, we see lighting, again, part of your energy infrastructure as an integral part of things that need to communicate as a group. So are LEDs ready for exterior primetime? We think that that cream of the crop, top level manufacturing community that's producing certain devices that are well engineered, they are ready for installation right now. But it's really about the right source in the right luminaire. So carefully selecting which of those manufacturers you do go with to install with the right controls and to look at it as that systematic approach to installation. What else can it do? How else can it contribute to my energy story at my institution? Moving on to interior opportunities. LED downlights. We're going to fly through this. Don't have much time. Just want to point out some key numbers like 800 million. That's a big number. Like I said, for those of you who never thought about a wall pack before and don't give much consideration to the circular luminaire over your head in every space from stores and retail to in your own homes, 800 million. And these were one of the first places that we saw a ton of different form factors and solutions emerge and some of them are excellent and some of them are not. Just with an LED downlight search and Google images, I came back with about 1.8 million search results. And just like a fraction of a second, so there are a lot out there. So you do have to choose wisely even in the mature LED categories. And everyone in here is concerned about costs. So I did want to talk a little bit about the decline of prices for quality LED products and I'm divorcing this from brand but had to start somewhere for an example. So just looking at these two brands and these two types on the top row we have commercial grade on the bottom row. We have the things you're going to find in Home Depot for the homeowner who wants to swap out their kitchen lighting. So in the past year CLTC paid about $120 actually in the past few years ago for things on the top row and that was at a discounted price and already over just a few years time we've come down $30 or $40 per unit for high quality spec grade LED luminaires and your utilities have blessed this category as ready for incentives and rebates. So thinking of retrofitting some luminaires but not others. Looking at the incredible movement forward of high quality fluorescence in terms of lamp and ballast combinations and saying which are ready for LED which are ready or not and we should just look at change outs but stay in the fluorescent category. You can also look to utility catalog to say okay who's giving a rebate in which category. Adaptive stairwells So this is the first thing a lot of persons I think think of when it comes to utility management and I say let's reduce the light levels in your stairwells when no one's around and you say uh oh safety scary someone's going to go in there and not want to go down the stairs and we're going to have an increase in obesity in our employee population because everyone's going to use the elevator that's not the case I want to assure you however I do want to also assure you that this is a big energy opportunity and for those of you who don't have the new copy of title 24 next to your bedside as reading as I do the by level stairwells or occupancy sensitive light reducing devices in stairwells is coming in terms of the next code cycle which is coming very soon on January 1st, 2014 so in areas of low occupancy such as stairwells such as corridors all these transitional paths throughout all of our built environment you'd want to consider the right source the right luminaire the right controls for the application and lower those light levels when no one's around and what have we found so far you can reduce them down to 30 or 40% have plenty of illumination and as soon as an occupant even enters the space they're up to 100% anyway if you need further evidence as all of you will before you made any type of buying decision rather than taking my word for it I do have case studies to share with you if you contact me after this presentation for example with an average of 50% energy savings from the UC and CSUs I mentioned corridors we recently did a really fabulous demonstration in Oakland that starts to show that the price of complicated network systems is really coming down and we can stop using the word complicated to describe them and start to look at simple ways to bring down the cost of lighting spaces that are used 8% of the day up to the busiest corridor we found so far was 50% occupied so that means at least one person was in the hallway only 50% of the day so as in this case study we went from a couple years ago looking at adaptive corridors and looking at light levels reducing in corridors costing 20 to 100 years to pay back to 3 years and 4 months and only a matter of a few years so these are ready now this is one that I don't have an LED system involved I have a fluorescent system so once again for this application fluorescent was fine it's great performed beautifully and controls were the key in this not moving on to tomorrow's source and everyone in here regardless of your lighting experience level knows about light bulbs and is curious as to what's coming next in that category and in this case I wanted to mention that we are looking beyond energy savings in terms of CLTC's kind of next policy for just the low light bulb we're looking at quality so dimming, longevity color, color over dimming so when you dim it down does it shift from a nice comfortable white light to some eerie green thing where you see the creature on the stairwell and looking at distribution and really asking people what do they want how much are they willing to pay for it and whether they want it to be and looking at these other qualities nope that's for you later calculations because you all need proof so based on decision by the CPUC recently that includes quality of light not just energy savings and the CEC's guidance we're hoping that the utilities and so far they've been on board will begin to incentivize products that meet these kind of quality focused product requirements to energy focused so that we can have that holistic package I'll skip over this because there's a lot of places this is needed in retail where the lighting directly affects the bottom line in gallery spaces where the intention of the whole piece is to be lit properly for viewing and for the spaces that you're again like corridors and stairwells maybe not thinking of as you sit here listening to energy efficiency policy throughout the day those places that use light in the built environment including fast food look at all these luminaries everything I just talked about almost you can pick out in this picture so CLTC is looking at these small properties throughout the state starting with five Carl's juniors in Southern California Edison territory LED downlights lamp retrofit auto DR so thinking beyond data centers and campuses looking at even fast food institutions and saying what can we do to kind of pull lighting into this whole system that combines the right source the right luminaire the right controls for the application at the price and the payback that you can afford now and designing that system to be proper and right for that place while still thinking about all these things that are behind this from the state which you've heard a lot about today that's everything I have thanks very much Kelly our final speaker is Tanu Mohan and Tanu is the chief technology officer and co-founder of Enlighted he has more than 20 years of experience in the computer networking and software business and every three years in the program for additional information Tanu would tell you we should have 15 minutes to celebrate your A afterwards so I'll try and not mention any of these throughout my talk so we live in an age where everything from cars to cell phones are connected smart and sensitive but the buildings we live in aren't even if you look at the building over here there isn't any smart sensing going on there are areas of this conference that are empty but are controlled by smart sensing Terry said the lights are out here but can't actually out somebody has like to do a projection scene hit a scene button where they're trying to get this side of the conference room dim and the rest of it bright so I'll get into it what we do where we come forward but keep these things in mind and I'll go forward oh I sent a later presentation so now it didn't seem to come so let me just go back to the previous one lighting in commercial buildings consume about 28% of the electricity load in large high rises it's up to 44% somewhere between 20 to 44% of your lighting load in commercial buildings of your electricity load in commercial buildings is lighting so we focus on bringing controls to lighting and the way we focus of bringing controls to lighting is to smart sensing I don't know what the next slide is let me go start from the evolution of lighting control we started with building level sweep timers so what a building level sweep timer does is it tries to turn the lights off at night so when one person comes in works late or the cleaning crew comes in the lights are on these systems had very minimal savings we went on to room level occupancy sensing and daylight harvesting now look at if I walk into my office and I'm in my office dim on me and I have to keep waving my hands because the occupancy sensor is not picking I call the electricians in to come fix it the labor required, the cost of the labor required to do that fix negated any energy conservation savings you might have had today's systems that have come about are trying to leverage what the 80s and 90s had with zones sweep timers occupancy sensing daylight harvesting these systems let's say I work in I used to work at Cisco and as I used to walk into my cube about half the building would light up simply because the zones were very coarse by the time I visited the restroom most of the floor was lit so the zone based systems didn't work so the natural transition of what has been happening finally is smart is smart fixtures so we end up I apologize this was not the presentation I last sent so I'm bringing it a little bit over here so moods law has computers becoming so cheap that it is cost effective to put then every fixture so now think of a fixture that is its own brain can sense smart and make its own local decisions that is the most optimal way of doing lighting control every fixture is looking at its own environment looking at where it is and making a local optimized decision with all of that sensor comes a lot of information this information can feedback to a center system which we can do a lot more typical systems that exist today look something like that you have a whole bunch of skews you have a whole bunch of zones that are significant design and pre-engineering required as Terry was speaking about the ceiling and why fixtures together is why then to a switch significant effort involved they require experience contractor and finally when the system is in there is an extensive commissioning phase where you need to figure out where the daylight harvesting sensor went and if I pull that line and the sensor picks it up the entire room then that's not effective these finally ended up being very expensive very complicated with an ROI sometimes in the 8 to 12 year range the lack of granularity is primary where while we lack savings and also we limited the future because of lack of granularity our system has smart fixtures so we attach a sensor to every fixture that does not require the electrician to go above the ceiling tile at every fixture we install a power pack in line with the dimming ballast and attach an highlighted sensor the sensor looks at the current occupancy patterns looks at the available ambience light and makes a local optimized decision all of the decision making is wired so there is no networking issue as such each of these sensors form a big wireless mesh and the mesh is used for monitoring space the gateway converts the networking messages on the wireless to ethernet and halts it back to an energy manager that might reside in the building or in the club what this does is electricians who service the buildings today who know how to replace bulbs and ballast can put the system in so it is as simple as a bulb or a ballast replacement it is cookie cutter so every building looks the same with this approach we are adding smartness to each of these fixtures in our own building this is an example of what's happening in our building at 7 am the first person comes in and by around 10 o'clock everybody is in that is being reflected by the orange bars which are the actual energy consumed by the lighting system the lighter bars on top reflect the savings we break up the savings into occupancy savings the daylight harvesting and task tuning so in our own company by around 10 am most of the office is in about 15% of the people leave for lunch and then most of the non-engineering folk leave by around 10 am and then we work hard all the way up to 10 o'clock at about 1 am our cleaning through comes in they clean for around 4 hours and then the sweep timer so if you look at this floor we have saved about 64% over the day and this is real there is no calculated baseline there is nothing the existing systems were left in the sweep timer is in and whenever the existing systems are getting to ourselves so this is a system that does the running baseline and at any given instance tells you what would have happened and what is happening so the data we collect could reflect itself in a heat map in an occupancy map in an energy map there is a number of ways of using this data you could use this to do you know workplace optimization of where people are and how they work I'll share a little story we were in a limited meeting at 9 o'clock in our boardroom and just as the meeting was about to start we realized that our projector had gone missing so during that meeting everybody was allowed to pull out their laptops and supposedly follow the presentation curiosity got the better of me and I ran because our system this is our own office in Sunnyvale and I looked what happened between midnight and 9 o'clock at 6 am we saw a pattern of somebody coming in at conference room going into an office and leaving so that was very suspicious 5 minutes in the conference room and the projector is gone missing so what I did is I pulled up the upload calendar for the person whose office it was and I saw that he had a 7 am customer meeting which was offside so he had come in at 6 o'clock taken the projector and gone so while the meeting was going on I said about 10 minutes the projector will show up again and the projector came in what I was trying to get at is you install the lighting control system and this is all what you are going to do the energy efficiency from the lighting control system will be delivered to your ROI paid for all of those thank you Chinu before I ask any questions or ask you to ask the panelists questions I'm going to ask them Terry Kelly and Chinu to if you have any questions of your fellow panelists why don't you go ahead and have at each other and then we'll eventually turn it over to the folks in the room let me just explain why I seem to be such a hard factual driven guy on this best lighting practices and any of you who have dealt with a building and dealt with an architect and you spend so much on the carpeting and so much on the sheetrock and so much on the lighting so much on the control systems when you do best practices and you start getting the lighting power density down to about 0.5 watts a square foot and then you take simple controls the connected load best practice CLTC starts coming in around 0.35 watts a square foot if I could cut that by another 2 tensile watt I'm not a 0.15 watts a square foot and that's only worth about $5 a year per light fixture so the percentage savings is great but even at 15 cents a kilowatt hour it's very very hard to get excited about the long-term payback versus insulated windows versus all the other things you're hearing about and so the challenge and some of the things that Beck and this group behavior, energy and climate change is what are the barriers that are keeping us as a state from using best practices because many of you heard Title 24 that caps energy use at 0.9 of a watt a square foot so the gap between what the state has proven is best practice and what we allow under law is 2x and that is just there if we could change our behaviors so that's why it's such an economic driving force Terry do you have any questions of your fellow panelists or Kelly of your fellow panelists come on as a preparation we had that out we had that after each other but if nobody else has any questions if you don't have questions of your fellow panelists then I would ask you to use the microphone here and addressing the panel just one quick question if you can identify who you're with in your name please Mike Petahoff from Apple just the speaker from is it enlightened I guess are your systems equally applicable for fluorescent and LED systems so that's something that happened the cost of dimming on fluorescent plummeted significantly so it makes a lot of sense to dim fluorescent fixture so we have about 80% of our installations are fluorescent fixtures 20% with any yeast with the new program staff Dallas it does not matter the life of the LED of the fluorescent aren't affected at all and it's very smooth Kelly do you have any thoughts about that from the standpoint you see Davis I think what I said in my presentation still applies is that even the incandescent has a place in select applications so the systems like enlightened the systems that are controlling both exterior and interior environments good systems should be source independent and they should instead operate that they are going to control and offer data points that are useful to the end user so technology neutrality and looking at source is so critical not to get swept up in a paradigm shift that's only now starting to really take place for your questions from the floor please yeah name and company I'm Chris McCloskey and with PricewaterhouseCoopers consulting business I had a question just about the end users and all that stuff the people who are actually sitting in the offices in their homes with the new lighting technology I recently burned out two CFL bulbs in a row before I realized that the dimmer switch in my bedroom was actually causing the CFLs to burn out that I bought a dimmable CFL with flickers and replacing all those I broke one of the CFLs and spent some time cleaning it up and wiping it down and now the hazardous chemicals in there weren't in my home so I wonder when you're thinking about the end users how do you sell the benefits to them and how do you educate them on the new lighting technologies changes to their fixtures changes to how these lights behave and how they have to be used how they have to be disposed of when you think about the end users how do you educate that group well it's actually not much different from the TC standpoint on educating a facility manager or I'd like to say it's knowledge exchange more so than just education we're not here to deliver the end all and be all we're constantly looking to end users whether they be someone in a home or someone who's managing a million square feet of corporate campus and saying what do you need but at the same time we ask them to look at emerging technologies and say if you're looking for something new for your home that's going to save energy for the right reasons that you not ask that that new lamp that you're purchasing be one dollar when it really needs to be ten or fifteen dollars at the outset of when it's introduced in the market in order to perform up to the expectations that you are hoping will happen so for example all of you may consider in the next year or two investing in a solid state replacement lamp a regular old LED light bulb go to the bargain rack and buy the bargain one well you might just get something that doesn't last and with the CFL unfortunately there wasn't a lot of information that was put out there at the outset there was so much focus on cost and so much focus on suppressing that at any cost including the cost of the balance components and lack of knowledge out there about dimmer compatibility that we missed an opportunity and for this emerging technology phase that we're in right now it's that the consumer be open to learning that the institution be open to giving knowledge exchange but also that you remember that you get what you pay for as we move forward and not demand as consumers that everything be bargain basement price and then ask it to perform like you know a Tesla versus a Pinto so I don't know if that directly answered your question but I'm trying to touch on all these points yes we're listening to what consumers want because we're consumers ourselves thus the quality of light standard we hopes comes to pass but at the same time we need consumers to come back and say you know sometimes it costs more to have what I need and to have it function as purported for that 15 years it's promised by the manufacturer next next question please identify yourself and you're I am myself I am a manager I care about my planet earth question for the enlightened sensors and reporting system how much how much power does it consume my bottom point is I want to know whether this could be fit for residential application and then my second question is for Terry do you have some plug-and-play kind of LED instead I have to do the driver change I have to do the bullet change you know those I think two questions thank you so in operating mode it is at 120 volts it's sub half a watt when it is in full operation so again it depends what it's doing but for 100 square it's about sub half a watt and and Terry I can speak for our company Finelight we really strive to make all the pieces repairable so you don't have to throw them away it's got a low footprint there is a table out there I would encourage you to grab your wine and take a look at it my apology I didn't make my question clear I'm talking about the conversion from the existing person to LED could you make it plug-and-play take it out and play instead of changing the driver and bullets no but I did I just for your information my house was built with incandescent light very very bad and then when I find out about you know all this LED I'm able to buy LED two pin I think G8 I forgot it's plug-and-play I don't need to change anything and I got a really good in the residential world that works pretty well in the commercial world the nature of these long four foot lamps above your head they never see building power there's always a balance in between them so it's a little more complicated to change out the slum and air above your head the same thing with my residential one it was in a can some LED company required that you change the can I don't have to change the can the short answer is yes there are products out there that do what you're looking for I'm using it but it's understanding what's out there making a proper selection but there are products out there that I think are doing exactly what you want yeah I know I'm using it so educate me what is it different let's take that as an example if that was in your kitchen the lamp you had was probably self-balanced so when you remove the lamp you've removed the ballast but that particular one in this room probably has a ballast that is separate from the lamp so if you remove the lamp the ballast is still in line so if you put in an LED fixture the way the ballast works is it's trying to do something like the lamp so there are voltage and electric curves in the beginning that would typically harm an LED and if you did have a solution he has worked around that so you have the inefficiency of that ballast then you have the inefficiency of the LED driver in it so it's not the right way to do an LED I see if I could we've only got a couple minutes left and we've got a whole series of questions here so if I could ask the next person please Meredith Owens Alameda Municipal Power and we've had an LED advanced technology program for about three years now in both sectors the rebate rate is 20 cents a kilowatt hour we're getting frustrated some of our customers are getting frustrated with the Design Lights Consortium Qualified Products List and the Energy Star Qualified Products List what we're finding is you'll go to a manufacturer's website and it'll have the Energy Star label on it but it's not in the Energy Star list and it seems that the Energy Star list although it's certainly a daunting task to update that it's probably not updated and some things are on Design Lights and they're not on Energy Star so well you're right and Energy Star is now part of the EPA it appears to us as a manufacturer it's going more and more for residential more and more focused on things you'd buy at a big box store a Target, a Safeway a Home Depot Energy Star for someone like NetApp or Stanford once you get out of the little six inch tube they explicitly exclude these 2x2 fixtures and 2x4s so we are not allowed to be part of the Energy Star program and that's why customers need to look to two different standards if it's the classroom commercial world I'm sorry you have to go to DLC because the EPA won't let us in yeah it's been very frustrating maybe their best bet is to just ask for LM79 and LM80 if it's not evident do you have any comment on that Kelly well we do advocate for the development of a specification that at especially the municipal utility level as well as the large IOU level that will kind of filter some of those products through but that way your large end users could use those specifications to kind of filter but they do have to do that work of filtering it but you're right these lists are hard to update and because we over the past five years have seen just an enormous influx of products into this market because of the addition of the solid state competitors it's been impossible to audit all of those lists however with that said CLTC is not funded one dime right now to do that type of work ideally I know I know and we also have our issues with the way those systems are run but the DLC for commercial products is the place that utilities and so on are looking right now but developing localized specifications that help agencies, large clients etc kind of filter products for themselves as well through the contract process might be a good solution One tiny little thing on that the nomenclature in the model numbers and so forth is just out there I think I recognize this next individual Thank you very much Please identify yourself Mukesh Kriter with Oracle Thank you very much it's a very good presentation from all of you talk to you individually sometime ago but really enjoyed it we're telling about the virtues of dimming one way or the other so my question is I have two questions one first question is where do you see self-contained fixtures with dimming capability for areas like transition areas or either that they are not fully occupied and do they become cost effective that's the first question and the second question is if you all had your ways five years from now what kind of a lighting system do you see in the industry how will it be different than what we see in the industry today when I start with Terry on that one if you're not aware the current generation of title 24 which is the law in California by 2013 is going to mandate all of the luminaries in the commercial world will have dimming so whether they're LED or fluorescent that is going to become the law so demand response dimming all of that will become standard so in five years we will all be used to dimming luminaries in every office, every classroom every hospital room it will be there by the law and I'll pass on how smart fixtures are going to be to my colleagues up here so the question you first asked is tied to the question second and CLTC does see an increase in the number of luminaries available by high quality manufacturers that have onboard sensing onboard controls so that you buy one and you install it and it does the things that you need to do for daily zones, for dimming, etc I mean occupancy based dimming but then you're also going to have the second category of pairing control systems with existing fixtures that don't have these types of onboard smarts so in five years as Terry said I see more smart systems and I see two avenues to get there one, it's onboard and two, you take whatever you want and pair it with either a system that's connected to your whole building through a network or a system that's just controlling your lighting and it depends on your level of investment and your need for all of this granular data that's being collected because not every business out there needs to know as much as a 1400 points of light on the UC Davis campus is going to deliver so you can start to see a decision tree that's evolving based on what we have now what will be here in five years so five years I more or less see smart fixtures so these fixtures have sensing inbuilt in them as well as the network companies and they would be present with existing systems and I also hope that in five years we'll start to see the reaction to these systems in spaces the acceptance of this dimming that's going to be required by law by persons who are using stairwells and corridors who are currently saying you know what's what's this all about is it dark, is it scary is it enhancing security or compromising it I'll take that when we're actually seeing it we have over three million square feet in star and the first thing was that I'm sitting alone in my cube at night and all the lights around me are dimmed I feel scared in fact we said let's turn them off and she said what I said turn them off and then when somebody approaches she starts hearing the lights come on and it is evident to her that somebody's approaching her well in advance of a full lit building so after some time because you can't hide from these sensors it actually feels a lot more secure the security personnel actually come into our floor they one scan and they know the space is empty of this one person sitting in a cube at one end and he walks to him both the security guy knows what he's going to expect and the person in the cube knows what he's going to expect and both of them are waiting hello ok and they move on so some of the concerns are actually what people think are actually working in the reverse stairwells for example because they are networked you can walk in and trigger the entire stairwell from floor 0 to floor 100 and that's the network to do that a smart network would do that many of these concerns because there are there is an upgradable brain in every fixture you can add software and their network you can more or less do anything you want so we individuals in our offices can adjust their particular fixture to the level they like so once that's done they come in the fixture remember they move to they're doing hotelling and they move to another office their preference is to move them so in some sense the shackles of what the building had have been completely removed and everything is now fluid maybe some of the simplest answers will be like all this building is entirely smart so just give me something simple that I can control and maybe it'll just be the demand for task lights so that I have something small on my desk to bring light off or on so as we get more complex digitally maybe we'll get a little bit more clear on what we need for just manual on off as well okay if I could at this point we've got two remaining questions I hope they can be short and we'll just have one person respond we're right at the end in the next session is getting ready to start so Nathan yeah Nathan Fleischer with Apple and UC Davis Grant so I have a question about LED lights you know they're getting a lot more efficient and cost effective but we've had some negative feedback about the color temperature with glare and so forth and I just wanted to ask the panel if you had any experience with working with occupants and getting them to adopt that color temperature or mitigating them somewhat Nathan could I just ask you to clarify one thing LED lighting as an industry is getting so big when people say we don't like LED lights people need to think are you talking about in the home in your retail store in the office which area are they not happy I'd say more in an office or conference or environment just for the sake of this question what we have found is that a few of the LED based luminaires first generation came out are extremely glare the LEDs were not very efficient they did anything they could to get the light out so they didn't have very good shielding they didn't have very good color control so you may be working with a pretty early generation and those can't be fixed that was the best they could do at that time I would check glare, color consistency better quality luminaires in the office don't have that problem anymore and the good news is we're absolutely looking at it as an industry and we're thrilled to have to tackle the question of how nuanced can you get within a system that addresses things like color for an individual at their desk because LEDs can do that and we want to move in that direction where you can dial in just what you need according to why you need it whether it's a biological connection to circadian rhythm or you just see better with higher correlated color temperature like when you're doing fine contrast task so yes we're looking at it and in five years I hope the discussion is even more developed around that topic just quickly occupancy change so if you change the color temperature on them and we have had that we had warm light throughout and we went to a much slower light immediately everybody said it's so bright I'm getting a headache and you get the good candle that you went down so it is changed that people see in the lighting mostly so if you keep the lighting the same they rarely notice it and if it's going to be better you need to tell them upfront it's going to be better so the brain works that way otherwise change is always it's not good if we could one last question please please identify yourself so degree city council of pacifica can any of you lead me to brainy traffic lights are there any such things as traffic lights that are kind of 21st century that traffic lights or city street lights no not city street lights traffic flow traffic flow lines so I know what can be done and what should be done I used to be at a wireless mesh company where we had wireless meshed outers sitting on each of the traffic lights and we were able to back all of the data had that had a sensor in real time we could actually help optimize the lights based on real time traffic but I don't know of a system out there that had brought these concepts together may I encourage you all to get busy if you would please please join me in thanking our panelists Terry Kelly