 Welcome to Senate Education Tuesday, February 15th, 133 p.m. Welcome to what I think is going to be a busy productive week for Senate Education, we are going to start today by looking at a draft letter that was worked on by our Ledge Council, Mr. Demeray, but this is a, this is new language that I think many have probably seen in emails or talked to people about as it relates to funding for English language learners. And so I'll give everyone a second to just pull it up if they have not yet had a chance to take a look at it on our website. And I'm wondering if you're comfortable with this I'd like to actually have Senator Perslick say a few words about some of the work from that you've done to sort of get us to this point I don't know if that's something you'd like to do or it would probably be helpful to all of us, but I didn't give you a heads up so feel free to pretend that your computer doesn't work. I missed your preamble. I assume you're talking about the people waiting. Yeah, I'm talking about the people waiting. And so you and Senator Hardy, basically, when we were in what looked like a position where we would have to sort of rethink the direction that we might go in. You were great enough to take the lead and work with Senator Hardy to get, get us to this stage and so I'm wondering if you might just say a few words before we have, we turn it over to Jim. Yeah, I think just briefly, we, we on this committee heard a lot of from from the Chittenden County or the Burlington and Manuski school districts in particular who have a lot of ELL students so this is extremely important to them. So we're getting kind of evolving information from AOE and much Council and JFO on how all these numbers and things were going to work. And, you know, we're all on the same team so to speak that we wanted to do what was best for the ELL students that was all our goal and I don't think there was ever any disagreement that we people wanted to make sure the ELL students got the resources they needed. That's not a question of what's the best way to do it forward. But given the testimony we heard and the complications, talking with Senator Hardy who spent a lot of blood, sweat and tears on this issue. We did think that just keeping with the weights was the way to go for now, just doing all the, all the same as, as came out of the task force in Dr. Hardy's memo in January that that recalibrated based on some of the other things that we did. So it's that 2.49 weight and just say okay, all all the different measures, sparsity, grade level, morality, poverty will all have weights and the weights will be based on the study. And we will for the small schools because the problem with the weights partly is that these various schools with very few ELL students the weights didn't help them. And because of the equalized pupil sometimes with all the equalized people going to the schools that had a lot of ELL students, they wouldn't see really any benefit for the 10 ELL students they had. So the proposal is to do a block grant or mini block grants or you can call them categorical grants maybe that first for those schools that just have 125 or 20 and then 25 to 50 or somewhere around there, they would just get a lump sum of money. Like if you have 125 ELL students here's $30,000 because you're going to need to hire somebody. You know maybe just part time. And then but they would still get the weight so they may or may not get some benefit from the weight based on equalized pupil calculations. But at least they'll get a chunk of money so they can at least hire a part time ELL instructor for the five students they have but if they have more students then they can get 50,000 or so. And then as they get more students the weight should provide the taxing capacity the school would need. And then our concern about making sure that things go well. Now we don't end up in 20 years where we're now where the weights got out of whack and there wasn't a connection to the outcomes that we would, we would collect the data to see how things are going and work with the schools and AOE to make sure that we are seeing the outcomes of those students whether it be poverty students, ELL students, special education students separate from this are are are excellent because that's all our goal and then moving from there. Senator Taranzini. Thank you. Where would I find the latest tax implications per community so we could see if a school if a district was, you know, in a little better shape or worse off in terms of the financials. Yeah, there is not a new one posted I don't think anywhere I haven't looked at our whole agenda for the weeks I don't know if we have. Mr James back in there but if, if we have my understanding is a we has Brad James has done the new tables and has done it different ways so that you can compare it. We could maybe have him in or maybe we could just post it. And it is just table that you can look by district. Is that something chair campaign we could ask Daphne maybe to track down. Yeah, are you okay Senator Taranzini if we emailed around or would you like to have. Yeah, that's fine just just under review. Can I ask a follow up question. Absolutely. I know we've we've talked at length about this for weeks I get it and I'm sure we've talked about can you refresh my memory is for a community that is being largely impacted financially, you know, not, you know, for sort of a negative fashion is, is there any mechanism in place to offset some of that tax increase that they're facing. And could you just explain that one more time. The goal from in the task force before and in what I think I'm speaking with Senator Hardy what they're talking about in finance for the larger part is is a role in. So it would just be a slow change of the tax rates instead of like if because some of the districts could see quite a big change. We don't want to have a position that where the situation where they have to like lay off teachers or you know, go to the voters with a real huge increase so it'd be like. Over the next three to five years that these weights and grants would, you know, they're all all weights except for this little mini grants for yellow would be in place. So as far that there isn't an offsetting kind of like with that 46 where we gave schools that merge some extra money wouldn't be anything like that it would just feather in the burden or the benefit, because it's also for a school that gets a lot of capacity it's like they can't maybe take that all in in one year so it helps both sides to roll this in over time. Does that answer your question. Yeah it does I appreciate thank you. And Senator Terrazini what we'll do is we'll, we'll take a look at that if you have additional questions will absolutely have Mr James in if anybody else has additional questions. I'm not anybody to to, if anybody has reservations with the letter going forward, I'm more than happy to put in the letter that there are some reservations from since senators, given whatever that might be so. So, Senator Chitenden. So I support the letter I like where you've gone with this great work center first like I will say the fourth bullet on the first block. I just wonder, it says provide your we're making the following yellow recommendations for your consideration and this is directed to the senate finance committee. I'm just wondering, the fourth one says provide guidelines for basic program requirements for ELL programs to ensure that all school districts are operating high quality programs for ELL students. Everything else seems to make perfect sense to be in finance but that fourth bullet it seems like something that Senate education might want to dig into further. I'm not saying take it out but I'm just wondering if it fits within the context of everything else in this letter. This is the problem when you have ambitious students that read the memo ahead of time before the council takes us through it. But yeah, if you don't mind Senator Chitenden if you could just give the rest of us a few minutes to catch up with where you're at that would be great. And then we could maybe also comment but no I will pass it over to Mr. DeMarane just a second but before we do that Senator Lyons your hand is up. Senator Chitenden asked the question I was going to ask. On the fourth bullet. But then the other other thing is that a couple of things one where it says like those in Chittenden County. It just that sentence we might want to just restructure it a little bit. And but then your comment about if there are any concerns about this, then we can put that in the letter. Absolutely. I guess I guess what I would like to see is that it should we decide on this that we be that we suggest that this is it. This is for me this is as far as we should be going on this issue and we would certainly suggest that no changes be made. In Senate finance, I don't know how to say that without upsetting their apple cart because that's their job. Right now I understand I think what I'm thinking is if for example and I'm not saying he's going to have a concern but if Senator turns any for example might have a different position. I just want to make sure that that voice is also there. In some way we either either he would draft something or we might, we might get to something where we we just might be able to I don't want to lose somebody's voice if they're, they're, you know, opposed to it or they want to raise something and it might be just a way to, you know, maybe it's Senator Terrence any we would just work with Ledge Council to make certain that, you know, he can weigh in in that way does that make sense in our lines. Absolutely. Okay, so I heard you say that and I agree with that 100%. I just want to make sure that we as a committee are fully behind whatever it is we send. Right. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I just really quick. I'm not opposed to the waiting say the concept the EL all that it's just the, it's a sensitive in my district, based on some of the weight changes that are occurring with certain in school districts which are going to be, you know, there's one that could be 13 to 15% increase if this is in place so that's why I'm asking these questions and, and you know, I'll leave it at that for now. Yeah. Yeah. Senator Hooker. Thank you. And, and Senator Taranzini's district is also my district and I understand his concerns, because there are towns that will have an increased tax capacity and towns that will lose to tax capacity but I really appreciate what I'm Senator and you have done to come to this compromise because we heard from all over the state. And, you know, we heard from those districts that have a large number of ELL students and districts that didn't and it seemed to me that the weights were the way to go to a fair way to go so I really appreciate that and I certainly appreciate the idea of rolling this out so that it's not impacting communities, either adversely, one way or the other. You know, too quickly. Thanks. So we'll get that letter from the memo from Brad James and try to move this, you know, maybe on Thursday. And, you know, the other way we could do it is just we could always vote and indicate what the vote is on the letter, something like that. All sorts of different ways to do it and then finance will take our work and deal with it. All right, Senator Hooker, I appreciate you mentioning me in your thank yous but really this is Senator Purchlick and Senator Hardy they really spent an incredible amount of time and energy on trying to find a path forward one that is going to meet with, I think the approval of most people, if not everyone so I just want to recognize their work. Yeah, Senator Hooker, are you going to say you didn't recognize me. Go ahead. I don't know, I recognize you, Senator, always. But I just want to say that this I hope is is future looking forward looking. I'm hoping or I'm assuming with our take on, you know, in welcoming new Americans to our state that there are going to be people all over the state who are in need of these services and that's where we're going, I hope. Yeah, no, it's a great point and it's an it's an exciting time without a doubt like you said, you know, people from all over the world coming to Vermont. Mr. Demeray. If you would just take us through this draft. So for the record, Jim Demeray Les Constell. This is a memorandum from your committee to the finance. And it reads, we are right to make the following ELL recommendation for your consideration. There are four points here first, I use a 2.49 people wait. All ELL students in all school districts. Second, provide may grants and 25,000 to $50,000 range to school districts with 25 or fewer ELL students. In addition to the rate to ensure that they have sufficient resources to hire at least a part time ELL teacher. And that add to full time positions at the agency to provide school districts with ELL program support and guidance for provide guidance guidelines support and basic program requirements for ELL programs to ensure that all school districts are operating high quality programs for ELL students. I would say that we believe that this recommendation would provide school districts with large numbers of ELL students with those in Chittenden County with increased resources tax capacity and funding flexibility to default ELL wait and ensure that school districts with very few eligible students would still be able to fund strong ELL programs. Enable guide guidance and accountability measures to ensure that all school districts are adequately funded and maintain and strong ELL programs and bolster the agency education's capacity to support school districts with varying size. ELL programs. And then last is the says thank you for considering our recommendation. We'd be pleased to discuss it with you and provide you with really policy language if needed. That's it. Great. And Senator and then you raised the second part the fourth one correct both to the. One that says provide guidelines support and basic program requirements not against that language or just wonder if that's really in the finance jurisdiction domain or if it's still sort of within us instead of Ed to look into that. Yeah, I would say it's it's it's in our. Our jurisdiction. Yeah, I would also argue that bolstering the agency, it is AOE's capacity to support school districts. The last one is also in our jurisdiction. I'm not saying we can't put something there but that's where we for example are going to put money in the budget or propose money in the budget for ELL supports Jim. And that way we sort of don't overlap. And that's where we're going to work if you will. Yeah, Senator Persley. Yeah, we have this, this, this letter talks about the two FTE so that I would think would be something the budget but I hope we don't put the mini grants as they're called here in the budget, and in that it's instead part of the education project as we propose the categorical grants, because if they're in the budget then they can be easily just not understood and moved around which was one of the concerns about doing categorical grants. So I'd want to hold on the principle that I told people that we wouldn't do with if we didn't do weights and did grants or we wouldn't make it just a budget item that we'd make it something that just it's pulled it into the education. Yeah, I'm not sure I follow 100%. I'm sorry. So, so the grants, instead of making it a budget item. Yeah, like that appropriations deal with that we did something Brad James would do is like how many students how many ELL students you have you have 10 education fund needs to pay you X dollars, and then the education fund just is increased by that amount. It's not a separate line item that that appropriations debate. It's just a formula in the, in the education formula basically. So that. So, go ahead centerline Joe. This is a Brad James question maybe but when are the number of ELL students determined. I'm trying to get it anyway. Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah what's the flexibility I'm trying to remember how all that goes. But I agree with what you're saying I just, I think it's a good thought. Jim knows the answer. I believe the secretary today determines these weights on December 1. Each year. And then they get they get sent to school districts and draft and the finalized I believe by December 15. In terms of the preparation process where I would recommend doing for this. Not the weight but for the, the dollars going out, just adding, adding it to the appropriation for education spending. So, if you add there that's just part of the big number that goes out to school districts, therefore would be a separate I am on the budget. Yeah, yeah. Looks like everybody's in agreement with that. Anything else so in Jim, you know I might work with you a little bit just on some of the language, some, some of the wording I just trying to think if. But but overall no I think this is I think this is good I think it gives them the direction they need. Again it's it's not. It's not a bill it's it's it's really just helping them take the next step in their work. Yeah, go ahead Jim. I just mentioned on that first ballpoint about guidelines. Yeah, I would know what has to be in a program. So, I'm, I'm just saying in terms of drafting that those guidelines I think I would certainly need input from from you and maybe from people in the field as to what should be required in that program. Sure, sure. As we move forward with that work. Yeah, and I think it's going to be, you know, it's going to be some work that you know we might do but it's, this is the kind of work that we would ask members of the AoE to do new members of AoE to do. Really with our direction, I mean, you know, in terms of the positions themselves I don't see this committee, you know batting this kind of stuff around per se, just pushing this to be in the budget if that makes the you know making sure those appointments are in the budget and then leaving that kind of work up to those new appointments. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, Chair, that really the fourth bullet point could be part of the third bullet point because it's really about the, I think of it as the agency of education. Yeah, doing those like getting new positions that are focused on it and providing this guideline support and requirements for the schools. And I'm happy to talk about what those are. I don't have the expertise either, but my hope would be that AoE would have that or would gain it and help the schools with that. Yeah, pulling it that yeah and I like the idea of combining four and three more than just with the conjunction there but actually having three bullet points instead of four center Alliance. I'm wondering if we should have a conversation with AoE about some of the guidelines or just to hear the thoughts. Is there is there any legislative direction that we would want to give or we want to hear from them have them bring in a template I know this does get a little bit complicated. I have said we have Secretary French coming in this week to talk about staffing in general, and this is, I think this falls in there, unless someone disagrees, but given that we're hoping. I think we've identified staffing shortages in general in AoE. I want to hear Secretary French respond to that. And we can can raise some of these things during that time. Also, if you think that's a appropriate time to do it center lines. That will be completely up to you. It's great with me. Yeah, good. Well I'll support you on that. Okay. Anything else right now, Senator Perchlich. You're okay. Okay, others looking around right so I've asked Daphne to Jim. Just a suggestion. There's nothing in statute today that defines services required to be delivered for AoE, nothing at all. So one approach, maybe to put some sexual language in like high level. This is the minimum that's required and then ask AoE to develop that further by role or by guidance. Yeah, okay, Senator Perchlich, yep. I think the schools that I'm assuming that the schools that receive the federal funding, which I know aren't all the schools that have the yellow students but I'm assuming the federal funds come with federal guidelines so maybe that. But the feds are requiring is a minimum, but maybe that's something we would. That's a really great point. We did we did hear that that was pretty much a minimum, I think, when we heard testimony. We would want to say at least or something. Yeah, yeah. Jim, could you get that language to us. Yeah, I can go the federal requirements requirements. Yeah. Yeah, I just like to see them again if cases. Do we want to put anything in somewhere, not necessarily in this bill but it could be in our miscellaneous. It could be somewhere that's all I'm just saying where would we put an assessment of best management best practices that that currently there are schools that are have robust ELL programs and the AOE might want to coordinate with one or more of other districts to determine and make a recommendation about best practices is this is it should we be doing that now or should we allow for a period of time. I like the I like your thinking a lot it's and maybe again I think this is. I think that it would be one of the first things that somebody new in the agency would want to take on exactly what you're talking about, you know, what's the best work being done out there, do we have models that we could could share just like a lot of the other work that I think comes before our committee with literacy and other things. And I would say center lines. In terms of the way you're thinking about this. It's really interesting, I like it because it also may we may find or a future education committee may find that, you know, we, they create something similar to what we've done with literacy, you know, again finding finding where the best is bringing people in really working on training things like that. And I think we started in part by making certain that the agency is staffed up enough to do it and that when we asked for somebody to come in, they sent us just to careless as much as it becomes a part of the responsibility for the position that's there. Yeah. I think that's really important. Yeah, I think it's a great point. Anything else. Jim will definitely is going to send that memo around. We'll take a look at another, if you wouldn't mind maybe just emailing us a new version of this and then we can have a look. I don't want to fiddle too much if you know what I mean I want to give people some time and some space to make sure they're comfortable with it. But as was pointed out we've taken a lot of testimony on this we want to give finance, you know the space they need and time they need to get to complete the work. So I believe that you want are to combine points three and four about the agencies positions and the guidelines come on those two things together and delete the reference to Chittenden County. Is that basically where you are. Looking through. Also the agencies. I'm just wondering if Chittenden County is a red flag for some people provide school districts. Yeah, I think why it just doesn't seem everybody knows right I'd remove it. Yeah. People know where there are large numbers of ELL students there are other areas with increased. Yeah, I think it's a good idea to remove it. And then if you send it around. Maybe we can just do a little. I'll take a look at it and see if there's any, any other additional edits and we'll probably have you back in Jim Thursday just to final finalize it and get it down there. Okay. Okay, is that okay. Anything else on this. Okay, just looking around. Okay. Thanks Jim. Yep.