 Welcome to the Army Suicide Prevention Month virtual engagement hosted by the U.S. Army's Office of the Chief of Public Affairs. I'm Hank Manitrez. I am honored to serve as your moderator for this evening's very serious conversation on resiliency in challenging times. Tonight we're going to hear powerful stories of resiliency and share resources for those who might be facing similar circumstances. Before we get started I'd like to remind you about 988. In July the nation ruled out a new three-digit national suicide prevention lifeline. Individuals in crisis can get support by dialing 988 then pressing 1. Personnel serving overseas may contact the helpline via chat by visiting the website at 988lifeline.org. Clicking the chat link located at the top of the page and requesting that a responder contact them by phone at no cost to the requester. Now let's meet our panelists. For this evening we have four guests joining us to share their insights and their personal experiences as they relate to resiliency and suicide prevention. First up Coach Babe Kwasniak joins us as an Army veteran and nationally recognized basketball coach. He's a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point. He served with distinction as an infantry officer. Now as a civilian aid to the Secretary of the Army in the State of Ohio he leverages his personal experiences to bring awareness to the veteran suicide rate. Coach I want to thank you for for joining us again. It's great to have you back. Thanks for being with us. Hey my man great to be here great to be alive. Thank you. Oh thank you coach. Next we have Mrs. Jenny Taylor who is a mother of seven and also a civilian aid to the Secretary of the Army in the state of Utah. This is Taylor whose story will move you as you hear this discussion frequently speaks about the price of freedom the value of community support and the healing that can be found when moving forward with a conviction to find hope and happiness in spite of life's heartache and pain. Mrs. Taylor it's also great to have you back. We are so play so wonderfully pleased that you are here with us tonight. Great to be here and I'm really grateful these important conversations are being had. Absolutely. Next is Sergeant Major Thomas Campbell who by day is the Sergeant Major of Operations Plans and a training at the Center for Initial Military Training and by night is an accomplished stand-up comedian. His unique storytelling ability has made him a great comic but more importantly it's made him a great speaker on the hardships that many soldiers face like suicide traumatic brain injuries PTSD and help seeking behavior. Sergeant Major want to thank you for taking some time to chat with us. I heard you on stories of hope with General Gary Britto. I can't wait to share your story tonight. Hey thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here really looking forward to the conversations tonight. Thanks Sergeant Major. Finally we are pleased to have Ms. Carrie Schult joining our conversation. Carrie works in the ready and resilient integration and training division at the headquarters department of the Army Army Resilience Directorate. She serves as the supervisor and technical advisor for the management of policies procedures and governance in support of suicide prevention as well as substance abuse prevention risk reduction and the employee assistance program. Carrie welcome to the show. Thank you so much Hank. It's a great pleasure to be here. Well actually Carrie I'd like to start the conversation with you because you're obviously decidedly engaged in the policies and you support across a number of critical programs including suicide prevention. Can you talk a little bit about some of the specific places or programs where soldiers and family members can get help if they're struggling with mental health and on top of that are there any new developments or programs that people need to be aware of? Any specific insights that you have based on your position in the Army Resiliency Directorate would be greatly appreciated? Yes thank you so much and yeah again I'm really humbled to be here today with Babe, Jenny and Sergeant Major Campbell. Like you said Hank as they share their stories of hope. So just a little bit so I have been in this position for almost two years and my background is prevention and partnerships and I really I wanted this job because I thought I could make a difference. Suicide prevention is a team sport. There is no silver bullet and it requires a comprehensive approach and so I think you know as I I do want to take this opportunity to share some of the the really the the approaches that we're taking some of the programs and initiatives that we're doing which are really aimed to help leaders build cohesive teams really create purpose and belonging which are which are critical for suicide prevention and in really helping people see that they have a life worth living and really focus on some of the areas that we're doing to strengthen the resilience of our soldiers also our family members our civilians and our contractors so really we do see this as a whole of person and a whole of community approach in order to really get after the complex problem of suicides and so so the three programs I wanted to just share initially up front and I don't want to take too much time away from really these amazing stories but I do want to share three three things early on and I'll be on throughout this the the rest of the of the webinar and and able to answer any additional questions but we really see building social connect connectedness and resilience as as critical enablers for suicide prevention getting upstream and so we really do that through our 32 performance centers where we have trained performance experts who are there to support leaders family members and soldiers build individual and unit level resilience with skills such as mindfulness emotional intelligence how to build confidence goal set goal setting and and kind of counseling workshops so we know that when we empower people to be resilient we can promote overall well-being on the second thing we're doing is we're really expanding and innovating how we deliver I know this is I hope this doesn't come off but our suicide prevention training so I know training can get a bad rap sometimes and we really want to make sure that we deliver the knowledge and the skills to help people identify the warning signs enable them to know where the resources are like you said 988 what are the local resources what are the risk factors really help them challenge the stigma for seeking help you know how to engage in difficult conversations and so we want to do that in a creative way by building some base knowledge but letting it be creative so it's not the same training every year so so want to build that a little bit of innovation of flexibility in for our for our leaders and then lastly we want to enhance how we're utilizing our non-clinical resources so really looking at our community programs both on and off the installation so that we can not only get upstream but also help identify those that may be at some risk and could use some some general counseling so that we can really save and and really optimize access to our behavioral health professionals for those that need that specialized care so those are just some some some of the things that we're doing there's definitely more there's a lot of work to be done in this space and I know that you know me and my team we are dedicated to being part of the solution so I look forward to the conversation this evening back to you Hank thank you Kerry thank you for your insights and most importantly thank you for everything you're doing and the resiliency directorate is doing to take care of soldiers and their families I personally say you'd be hard-pressed to find another organization or another institution that is doing more to take care of their people than the army right now right now let's turn over to uh coach Kwazniak coach I'm looking forward to hearing from you we've talked before and your personal story is one of those that has stuck with me and moved me I know it's going to resonate with some of our audience members tonight let's just kick it up by by having you tell your story and then your opinion on why this conversation is so important to have and a raw conversation at that yes sir thanks Hank so about a week ago I received a text from a soldier who uh who was thanking me he said um sir this is my live day and as we know in the military you know the day you were born is your birthday and the day that our soldiers call our our live day is normally the time where they could have died in combat only this young man tried to take his own life that day uh he contacted me just through a through a mutual friend and it was it was pretty emotional right made me feel it made me feel pretty good um he said in the years since he's been alive he I hate to use the word save but he's been able to help four or five other soldiers I think and I mean just just awesome right uh my live day was in November of 2015 I I took a bunch of pills and tried to drive off a cliff at that point it was more impulsive which I think you know when people talk about veterans and the suicide rate I think impulsivity is probably underrated right we're taught to fire the weapon to jump out of the plane everything we're taught we're you know we're taught to to act and not not don't talk about it be about it and at that point it kind of separates the difference between just suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideologies I can recall one time we're now making a plan right and so not only I mean I was at a deep dark state of depression and depression is not sadness depression starts where your emotions end I wasn't sad I wasn't happy I didn't feel much of anything and I can recall one time actually making a plan to jump off a bridge and um you know I was getting ready to I got out of my car and I had the radio on and it was like okay okay god like what's it going to be and I remember because I had 106.5 on in Cleveland and the song one more night came on by by Phil Collins and I don't know what your beliefs are at the time it didn't matter what my beliefs are but when I stopped believing in god like he never stopped believing in me and um you know that later that week I I didn't take my own life that night I'm like okay God's God's giving me a sign here give him one more night and I had plans to do it again when I was in Chicago at a mentor's house this is why mentorship is so important and I know we're short on time here so to make a super long story short I had an old basketball coach friend of mine that looked me in the eye he said Captain Quas you're not okay man you're you're messed up use the word that's not in the bible and um it was at that moment I decided to go get help um my wife had been begging me for years I was probably depressed since 2012 and to be and I was just I lost 60 I'm sorry I lost 40 pounds my wife's position just caused a ton of stress in our marriage uh on the periphery I was a guy that had it all west point grad super successful in business high school basketball coach who won multiple state championships on the inside I was I was dying death by paper cut as I say like you know a moment at a time it's the way I describe it to people and there's a there's a difference between depression and anxiety but it's but it's almost like you're you're in the dark and you know there's light at the end of the tunnel but your eyes have now become used to the darkness and you're just consistently trying to go through that to that light so when you talk about the stigma of mental health I didn't come out with my story for five years afterwards so not until 2020 uh it was 2015 where I try to take my life there were three things and that's for another time one of them was a young lady I was working with on a volleyball team took her own life I came on that night I told my wife I'll never not tell my story again it helps one person it's worth it there was a a guy at a dining a dining out an old Vietnam veteran went to give me a purple heart I said sir I can't accept that and he goes you know I wonder why I came here tonight I didn't know you but I just knew you as a basketball coach but when you said your wife and your kids are better off without you I lost my son in Iraq when he was 28 years old and he had three boys and I prayed to God I just want to know what was going through his head and now I do and then the third one was during COVID a um a 12 year old boy named Hayden Hunt stable um Brad Hunt stables his father he's the CEO for linear labs he took his own life during COVID uh um he was five days away from being 13 Hank if you get a chance there there's a documentary called for all of us parents called um almost 13 that is must watch when it comes to this so when I came out with my story it was I told my story on David nurse's 1% podcast and and all my friends reached out to me all the guys I served with but I want to talk about that because I think as as you said we are it's almost a misconception right with with the civilian world like they think hey this is all you know this is all PTSD this is all low lone survivor blackhawk down uh 60 percent of folks who've tried to take their own life and and that number oscillates but have never deployed and uh a lot of it's from guilt a lot of it's from shame for me was you know I was in the infantry I I never deployed I was I didn't think I was a good enough husband I didn't think I was good enough man I didn't think in this the stigma even people who love me I knew they would have my back but I still couldn't you know get right to the stigma and I'm gonna tell one story because it's important and prevalent is I remember uh General Robert Brooks Brown retired General Robert Brooks Brown the one who runs a USA I don't know what his title is and I know it's something important president CEO whatever it is but when he when he when he was uh when he was a colonel I worked for him at Fort Lewis and man was like a or he is like a father to me uh taught me how to barbecue taught me how to be a soldier taught me how to be a man taught me the difference between confidence and arrogance uh just he was the guy I wanted to always emulate I always wanted to be like as a father as a person and when I got sworn in to be the civilian aid in August of 2019 I met with him because he was getting ready to retire we went out and had a beverage he was he was shopping for his granddaughter at the mall for school clothes hazel and uh I went down to tell him Hank and I said sir I've been struggling with some stuff and and he got emotional and said I wasn't there for you and I never told him that I try to take my own life and I can't explain why um I chickened out and I'm thinking to myself you weren't there for me I mean you just let us in two wars like how could you possibly say that but um when that podcast came out I I I called him on the phone and I said sir this podcast is is 53 minutes long uh his like I said he's my hero because his ADHD is just below mine he makes coffee nervous and and uh 54 minutes he calls me um I'll never forget it he said hey claws I'm proud of you and uh it was like it's like Sergeant Major you're in the field you know cold wet and hungry and that lights just hit in your face it was it was it was life changing for me and the second party said uh he said um your story is going to help so many people I said wait a minute sir I just told my story like I'm done doing this and uh he said no you're not I believe you can do this so you know I'm proud of you um I believe in you and the last part was uh you sure can you tell can you tell can you tell the girls so Patty his wife uh Kelly Kelly Tristan and Brooke who were like sisters to me Tristan I went with on a recruiting visit to Oregon and he said claws you think they're gonna love you any less babe I mean they love you like family they're not gonna love them any less and you know I'm proud of you I believe in you and I love you and those those are things when we talk about fighting this um it's preventable and it's actually beatable and we have exactly what it takes one of my friends who called me after that podcast was a guy my name about Noah Orlando Johnson so OJ um called me right afterwards and he he's like man this why didn't you tell me I said OJ I didn't even tell my wife meaning I try to take my life she knew my struggles of course but she didn't even know and he said this is me and you were talking about not you and your wife and that really you know that really hit me like when you talk about relationships there's going to be people who hey hey man if I need something if you need something call me or there's going to be people that they're just going to be standing right there for you and I can tell you various times where the people who know me they're going to call me until I pick up the phone they're not just going to text me and leave it alone because that's a warning sign and and he told me um some stuff that he went through so in February of 2021 I got a call from from my friend Brian Talley who's also a West Point graduate like OJ is and he said uh quads where are you and I'm saying I'm driving my my kid home from school Brian what's the deal and uh the week before we just helped somebody it was that was during the Super Bowl week and we just helped a soldier so I was feeling pretty good about myself when I get these calls Hank I know we know what they're about and um he said pause me to pull over I said Brian what is it he said um he said OJ shot his wife uh and he killed himself and um oh that's painful um I remember my my at the time he was nine years old my my my my son uh in the fourth grade at the time and I you know got I got out got on the side of the road started started throwing up um got home my wife and my wife went to West Point as well they had a great relationship she got home she was helping me out of practice sit down she's like no I'm not sitting down please sit down told her she almost she almost passed out of her feet um a year later I actually hooked up with his wife Jennifer she came to my house for an event that I was having she's she she made it she was um um she said you know many plastic surgeries I mean he shot her several times and um Jennifer thank you for letting me tell the story I love you so much to Chris Landry Jacqueline if you're listening I love y'all um and she wants to help people you know with this story and uh that day you know she her and I had a moment I mean um I was just you know had had to tell her that I know it wasn't my fault just like it wasn't her fault but I was sorry and she said babe you don't know this but there was another moment where where he tried to he tried to kill himself and I said uh yes Jenna yes I did and um you know I I play that conversation back in my head all the time Hank I think about just the fact that at the time I was so worried about what it is it going to look like for me right I I now put myself on blast you can't put rain back in the cloud what what are other people going to think of me and um you know if I just would have just listened right and listen it's this is like cancer like you said there are many different ways there are many different forms and and maybe I couldn't have helped him right it was it was pretty you know he was he had voices in his head I I have no doubt in my mind uh that he was when when he shot Jennifer that he was shooting at the voices in his head he was sitting on the bed she shaked him because he was unresponsive she went to call 911 and I had you know had these voices in his head which I mean they used to put people in straight jackets for that right I mean it's some pretty serious stuff so um the the guy who called me Ryan Talley um to tell me that that that OJ died he was at my he was at my house with us with his family when when we were we we met with Jennifer and we didn't see her during the during the funeral because she was still fighting for her life during that time at the at the funeral his kids Chris and Landry wanted me to give the eulogy and and I just didn't think I could Brian drove uh out of the way the the funeral was at Fort Hood to uh in Colleen you know and said hey man babe you can do this man you know again I love you I believe in you I'm proud of you and um you know I did that eulogy um can't make this up on June 22nd um Brian's wife Amy calls me I'm with my son again and my wife are driving to a baseball game and I didn't get the call and Laura's like why is Amy calling you and um I called Amy and uh Amy said uh babe Brian's gone wow um the last text I got from him was uh was he said uh he said quasi pray for me um my anxiety is back um I'm I'm struggling man and I said Brian do you uh do you need to do you need to talk I said real talk man you need to talk he said no I'm good and I said I said screw your anxiety you're not your anxiety um you know and once again Hank you can you know you can say you're gonna be there for somebody or or you just can be there for somebody I I can recall one story specifically where he knew I was struggling after OJ died and uh he called me I wouldn't answer and then went that he started facetime me I'm like bro you know I can't he goes no you're gonna look me in the eyes and I think that's such a that's such a powerful thing when you're fighting this man it's just to look somebody in the eyes and you know instead of trying to empathize with a man just say hey I don't even know what you're going through but man I'm I'm I'm I'm there for you no matter what um no matter what and um I would go so far as to say that Brian wasn't even suicidal he this anxiety is I mean the physical pain I fought both of them the physical pain I've had from anxiety pales in comparison to tearing up breaking a leg or tearing a groin or tearing a calf muscle which I've which I've all done and um you know uh to to uh to his wife Amy who Amy if you're listening I love you um to my nieces Audrey and uh and Avery well I'll see you guys Thanksgiving you know I can't can't wait this I can't wait to see you can't wait to put my arms around you and um you know I just think it's it's just really important for for us to know that don't don't want the most important thing is to reach out just just reach out you know don't not you know don't say if you need somebody to talk to you know just just reach out and you think you're not equipped for this you are you are one conversational you know one thing can save a life and again with Brian it was like it could even have been an accident it was a one impulsive moment it was one impressive moment you know the second thing is just be standing there like like I don't I don't tell people I'm going to be there for them it's like telling me you have to trust me I'm just going to be there standing for them right as a combat medic right sorry major we can't save them all man but if we can get one right if we really are the best team in the world I believe we are then we're going to know that that we don't leave anybody behind that we're going to go get that one and then finally and this is probably the most important part and I'll end with this um Hank is that nobody's ever died from being loved too much man like I hear all the time like you know what do you do to fight this I still fight this every day right and and like the anxiety my arm is so like I can't feel the left side of my body sometimes I mean the pain I have from this I mean here I am and I feel like I've helped hundreds of people and two of my best friends I couldn't help and it's the what I went through is nothing compared to that and you know people when they're sick as I was they think their wife and kids are better off without me the data does not support that I mean the data does not support that kids are four times more likely to take their own lives when their parents do and it shatters families man it shatters them and just just remember that nobody's ever died from being loved too much and I know sorry major the hardest job we have is like how do you decide if somebody's just being soft or if they're if they're really depressed and my thing is if someone's looking for attention what's the harm in giving it to them what's the harm in giving it to them it's like a salute man I think I'm walking back an officer and I don't know what's gonna what's gonna happen if I don't salute him you know I mean there's I just don't see the harm and and and and given that salute and nobody's ever died for being loved too much thank you so much for listening coach thank you thank you so much every time I talk about this you know it just strikes me right in the heart two things that that I take away from what you say is number one you shoulder so much so much obligation on your end that I can't even fathom and I salute you for that because you're taking on so much to help so many and understand what you're saying I personally understand what you're saying when it comes to but I couldn't even help this one I couldn't help that one been there done that I think in a number of you know training sessions for suicide prevention people start sharing stories and opening up and you're just like wow almost everyone in this room has experienced a loss because of suicide in one shape or fashion and in some cases more than one in my case more than one and and so I understand the the survivor's guilt if you want all that that goes along with it but number two you really hit on something very important that we've been teaching for a while now in the army and and that is to be very direct whenever you see someone who's going through a tough time directly ask the tough question do you think you're going to hurt yourself are you planning to hurt yourself and and for for a lot of people that's very counterintuitive because you want to be gentle about this situation you want to be sympathetic and empathetic you can't because you don't know what they're going through and the most important thing like you just described is reach out ask the direct question and be there for them take them to get help if you are physically able show that you care but don't don't try to you know go into your own story all I know what you're going through because you know my wife cheated on me and then I divorced her and then there was a custody battle and I was depressed too just like you and I'm not suicidal yeah that's the last thing you want to do is try to you know make it about you focus on them show that you care and if you can go get them some help you know if you talk and I know that's what the that's what the book teaches you per se is you know don't harm yourself I don't know why you started major but like listen man we with soldiers I we can't have trust about the truth right so I'd come right out and say it Hank I like are you having suicidal thoughts are you thinking about hurt yourself and understand that the first thing people respond to is like well what happens if they are if you are in a crisis then you got to react to fire and I probably said things that I mean Carrie shaking her head now but I don't know if she would approve of I mean I said things like hey listen man give me one more night if you still feel this way tomorrow I'll do it with you I mean at that point you have to do whatever it is at possible because if nobody listens to what else I say in this and I know like we have to reach out for help but Hank I wasn't reaching out for help nobody beats this alone I don't care how smart you are I don't care rich you are I don't care what color you are I don't care your religious beliefs at that point where I was it somebody had to see something in me that I didn't see in myself and we always talk about that is leadership he's like hey man I this guy made this guy made sorry major I remember him when he you know he was an e4 and he made oh this you know this guy made this guy made you know a general I remember him when he was a second lieutenant those that goes both ways there's got to be reciprocity and we we have to have the truth and that's the only we're going to have trust and a big part of that is is being able to look our people in the eye and telling them hey man this this is this is how I feel and understand that and I have said situations before where this person says if you if you do this if you if you know called 988 or you I'm going to hate you well you know we can get past that you know we can't get past yeah the text from your the text from your daughter saying hey uncle claws don't leave me um you and I promise I'll never leave you while Uncle Brian said the same thing like we can't get that back we can everything else we can fix right Hank yes absolutely thank you coach thank you thank you Mrs. Taylor Jenny Taylor we're going to talk to you uh so glad to have you back with us as a gold star wife and a daughter of a man who tragically lost his life to suicide we know that you yourself are no stranger to some of life's most formidable challenges like to take this time to hear your story and learn what helped you find hope in spite of grief and heartache Jenny hey Hank and everyone thanks for having me here babe thank you for telling that story and those men's stories and just the story that unfortunately keeps repeating itself in this country and particularly in our army and it's just so heartbreaking I love that you shared your live day that's not a phrase I was familiar with um I wish I had an alive day for my dad I don't what I have is a day in September 1990 when my dad took his own life years before September ever became suicide awareness month I was 10 years old September 23rd 1990 my dad was 36 not in the military never seen combat um not in a time where you talked about mental health not in the time where we decided you know which counselor do you have or which therapy do you go to it was definitely more of the straight jacket era of if you need help then you were crazy and you just didn't really talk about it I was such a young child I wasn't really aware of a lot of that but I do know that when I was about eight my parents moved our young family away from our family our cousins our grandparents and looking back now I think they did that looking for a fresh start as a family as a couple I think my dad's struggles were more prominent than maybe I was aware as a little kid and so we left our home state of Utah and we went to live in Omaha Nebraska but you can run away but the same you that's going wherever you are and my dad's struggles continued to get the better of him he wasn't able to work financial stress came that puts a huge strain on the marriage everything just went downhill and after about three or four years of my dad threatening suicide to my mom to my older brothers to anyone around he ended up killing himself like I said in September of 1990 I will admit I spent the next 20 years living under the shadow of that the dark cloud the sweep it under the rug I would not call myself resilient I think if anything I was just avoiding I think I got to the point where I knew I couldn't become the statistic babe is speaking of and I couldn't become what the numbers say was most likely to happen to me as a young girl with a widowed mother and a dead father and suicide in our history so I threw myself into school work and book work and just you know really trying to find my own path but that wasn't real resilience like I said for about 20 years I just didn't really talk about it I had friends I had close friends I had young man I dated as a young woman that knew my dad was dead but they certainly never heard from me the manner of death they said how did he die I said he was sick for a long time and left it at that now they might have known given the fact that maybe they just knew from circumstances but they didn't hear it from me it wasn't until April of 2011 that I visited suicide as an adult not because I became suicidal and not because my soldier husband became suicidal but that was the time that my husband's youngest brother took his own life with a gunshot to the head and he was almost 16 babe I haven't seen that documentary but you've intrigued me I need to go watch that almost 13 this kid was days away from his 16th birthday we didn't know he struggled he hadn't been in war or combat he was still a kid he didn't have a psychologist or a therapist or medication or drugs or alcohol or any of those stereotypes that I as the daughter of suicide had kind of lived thinking well those are the only people who really killed themselves and I'll admit I fed right into that stigma because it surrounded me at the time my little brother-in-law took his own life I was a mom of four kids my husband was on his way to his third combat deployment my baby was nine months old and my oldest baby was only seven years old and I remember being terrified absolutely terrified how could I raise children in this world how could I send my husband to war like babe said statistically speaking once you've lost someone in your family or close to you to suicide it just opens the door to suicide being on the table most people don't really default to I'm going to kill myself but when you've lost someone to that matter of death it is always haunting you so here I am a relatively young mom early 30s telling my husband off to war four little babies looking at this teenage kid so close to us that we thought was happy and well dead in the ground and I'll admit that's probably when I learned to be resilient and I'll tell you what I learned I didn't learn that life is not hard in fact I learned that maybe one of the biggest mistakes we make as human beings is working so hard to try to avoid the hard we try so hard to make sure our kids are safe to make sure we are strong to make sure we are self-reliant self-resilient self-sufficient self-self-self-self-self because this is the United States of America and we believe in independence and that's where we've missed the boat and it was at that time of just darkness and sorrow and anguish that I realized life is hard in fact we use the word resilience I would throw an adjective in front of it relentless we have to develop relentless resilience because life is relentless so I lost my father to suicide I lost my youngest brother-in-law to suicide in the meantime I've had two of my own biological brothers and a couple of my husband siblings in and out of suicide ideation and drug and alcohol addiction everything statistics would say is likely to happen when you're a survivor of a family member dying by suicide and then in November of 2018 three years after babes a live day my husband a major in the Utah National Guard was killed by a gunshot wound to the head but he didn't pull the trigger somebody else did he died at the hand of an afghan in an insider attack outside of Kabul and I will tell you it was the previous experience of my young adulthood my young motherhood and my childhood that prepared me to be able to survive my husband's death because I think if a while ago before my husband died you would have told me what was coming I probably would have told you I'm right where babe is and you better keep a close watch on me but something happened the day my husband died when I realized I can't stop trying to avoid the heart I can't stop trying to prevent the heart in my kids lives there is nothing worse and babe you know this there is nothing worse than comforting a child who's buried a parent there is nothing worse than that phone call or those tears in the middle of the night or or my daughter who comes home from a Sunday school class saying we talked about prayer to God today and I prayed every day that my dad would be safe and he's dead there's nothing worse as a parent than that helpless hopeless feeling but I'll tell you we got to stop trying so hard to make life not hard and I've come up with a few things that have kept me on my feet I'm not gonna say we're doing it perfectly I got seven kids I promise we don't do anything perfectly ever my brothers my brothers are in their 40s they still struggle with my dad's death I'm not gonna lie every September I get really nostalgic it's quite coincidental that the entire country now celebrates suicide awareness month the month my dad died when I was a 10 year old kid I mean 10 years old you guys that was the day of the Persian Gulf War generations ago in terms of where our military is but so the couple of tips I want to share tonight and just kind of throw this out there you asked how have I found hope well one of the things is just learning I gotta know how to fall and you can say I gotta know how to fail I gotta know how to do the hard thing my oldest daughter is a circus artist and she climbs aerial silks where she climbs up tall on the ropes and then does all these tricks and drops we love to go watch the trapeze artists in the circus last Christmas we were watching a trapeze show and I just watched with horror as a mother going oh my gosh they're all going to fall and they do these one flip at first then two flips then three four five and they're just getting more elaborate in the death-defying tricks they're doing and I found myself thinking how do they learn to do that and then I had a really big epiphany in that moment think about what the first trick they must learn what's the first lesson you learn as a trapeze star I guarantee to you the first thing they learn is how to fall I guarantee to you they learn how to fall they learn how to slip and fall and brace themselves for the fall and trust the net that is beneath them when they fall and look to their trapeze partner to help them get off that darn net and so look at life as this relentless difficult challenging experience and as you brace yourself for the fall focus on the safety net beneath you the circus show I took my kids to cost a pretty penny and I don't think the circus stars got paid all the money I guarantee to you a ton of it went to that multimillion dollar state-of-the-art safety net so I would ask what's your safety net or maybe who about a week or two before my husband died he asked me what my coping mechanisms were now he was deployed and I was home with seven little kids our house had flooded and I felt like my battles were a lot bigger than hers his in Afghanistan when he asked me what my coping mechanisms were I drew a blank I couldn't think of a single thing I could say that would help me get out of that darkness but I'll forever be grateful that he asked me that question before deeper darkness came so think about it what are your coping mechanisms if you say none then you and I need to have a conversation because you're overthinking it if I say who is your safety net and you say no one then you and I need to have a conversation because you're overlooking us you're part of this army family we're in this together for good or for worse build your safety net who and what is that so that you can learn how to fall the second thing I would say goes right along with that learn how to face what you can't fix oh my goodness are we good at trying to fix everything we want to fix it all army we're fixing it we're fixing problems around the world stop trying to fix it focus on facing it there's a lot in life you can't fix for yourself for your kid for your battle buddy for your friend but you can help him face it one day at a time even if it's one fall at a time the third thing I want to share is trust the puzzle pieces of your life I don't know about you but I love a good jigsaw puzzle billions of pieces tiny intricate cuts all the colors of the leaves or the scenic sunset that look exactly the same and if you've ever done a really difficult puzzle you know you've gotten to the point where you are convinced that piece does not belong in that box how many of us feel like that sometimes in life when those two soldiers knocked on my door on a Saturday morning in full dress uniform you better believe I was pretty sure that puzzle piece wasn't mine wrong door wrong guy wrong family but just like when you're doing a difficult puzzle you can't try to throw away the piece if it fits in the puzzle you probably just need to set it aside for a time if you're working on a lot of pieces and one doesn't fit set it aside walk away if you have to keep working one piece at a time eventually even the most difficult puzzle takes every single piece in the box I believe that's how our lives are I believe in a god that helps me have every piece in my life fit even retroactively you can call it god karma the universe whatever it is for you every incident in our lives can have purpose and meaning and every piece of the puzzle can fit maybe not right now but hold off because it's part of the puzzle and then the last thing I was really intrigued when I heard news reports of president biden speaking about the soul of our nation and of course talk radio all over america was chiming in as to what he should say or what he did say or what would you say and I would say one thing if you asked me about the soul of this nation I would say make sure you remember we have a collective soul like babe said like kerry said Hank like you've said nobody beats this alone and I don't just mean suicide I mean life you cannot be relentless in your resilience on your own yes be self-reliant yes be self-dependent yes be self everything that america loves to be as long as you remember all of ourselves are one collective self the soul of our nation is a collective soul we need each other we can help each other you can be my safety net and I can be yours and when I know that net is there not only am I not afraid to fall I'm actually statistically speaking less likely to fall because the tiny wobble the most on the tightrope is the time you're the most uncertain about walking across it if you know you could fall fall fall and still be okay you're actually going to walk with more confidence and more strength and more surety so that would be my my tip to people keep your alive day let every day be your alive day live life to the fullest live life together and remember that as the army whether you like it or not we're one big family and there's millions of us so if you ever feel alone give me a call because I promise you are not in this alone absolutely agree with everything you just said I've said it many times as I produce you know commercials and things like that for suicide prevention month you don't have to suffer in silence you're not alone there's always someone out there who's ready willing and able to help you another thing you said that really resonated with me and it just brought me back to 2006 when I was going through a rough time you said from for all intents and purposes you said you know nothing's going to hit you as hard as life period I happen to be watching Rocky Balboa when it first came out in the theaters and he gives this speech to his son and I know it's a stupid movie reference but what he said the whatever wrote that was just sheer genius he said you know nothing's going to hit you as hard as life and it ain't about how hard you can hit it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward and that was just what I needed to hear at that point in time and that's been my mantra ever since ever since we were almost 20 years ago something like that keep moving forward is is what I live by because you know we all have tough times we all things that we face you know to a different degree or another but for me it's keep moving forward and when I have friends that are that I know are reaching out to me indirectly and I directly engage them I say look no matter what else is going on you take it one step at a time one round at a time but you do keep moving forward that's just been my thing but Jenny I gotta tell you you know I I shiver every time I hear your story when we talked last time and you shared it back then God bless you for having gone through so much and for having found the strength to help others through their tough situation so again can't thank you enough for being with us tonight now we turn to sergeant major Campbell looking forward to hearing your perspective not just as an active duty soldier but a senior ranking leader now I was lucky enough to be the executive producer on the podcast you did with the new trade-up commander general Gary Britto uh broadcast it's on the army youtube channel called stories of hope and sergeant major it just I am so uh humbled and grateful that you are here after knowing your story that you're here to tell it again so please take it away hey thank you so much you know my story is very similar to coaches as he's talking I got a little emotional and I thought I'd be good now I'm getting a little emotional and I'm fixing to talk about my story that's okay sergeant major you brought me to tears the first time I heard this so no shame here we cry we cry you know and you know my story started uh when I had redeployed and I was on my way to the sergeant major academy and when I got to some major academy I was by myself and I didn't I wasn't in charge of nobody nobody's in charge of me I wasn't redeploying and getting ready for the next deployment I've been doing back-to-back deployments up to this point and what I didn't know is I had issues going on but they were suppressed because of the tempo that I had been going and now that I'm by myself and alone that's when they say the idle hands are the devil hands oh if it ain't and what happened was and then but there's some others and I'll share with you what was going on I just found out a 20 year marriage went down the drink I also found out that I having a strange relationship with my kids we have a great relationship now but at the time a strange relationship with my kids I had a perfect credit that went down the drink I went from an 800 credit score because I never paid a lake bill in my life to a 350 which I actually I was just talking about this morning I just prodded myself I just paid off another debt and I'm back at the 790 I'm almost back to 800 after this but I also had survivor guilt and I didn't even know what that was until I went through my ordeal I also I had I was having these migraine headaches I didn't know what was causing them I couldn't talk good I forget words when I was talking I got where I didn't like talking in front of people but I also turned bitter and I hated people I didn't want to be around people I hated myself I hated God and I hated everybody else and I burnt a lot of bridges during this time a lot of friendships some of those friendships I've never been able to mend and I'd also started self medicating on top of everything else and as I always tell people I found out that nothing good comes out of a bottle except for nitrous that's if you're putting your race card don't huff it but I was and I was not going to get help because of all the stigmas I grew up with in the army because if you went and got mental help that meant something was wrong with you and you got ostradized you got pulled out of your platoon you got put in the headquarters platoon nobody talked to you and I was really more afraid of what perceptions would be of me if I was going to get help and I didn't and so one day we're in class in some major academy and I had an episode and exploded and told everybody where to go and it was nowhere nice and I went home I started self medicating and I was actually suicidal before I knew I was suicidal and what I mean by that is I did not care if I lived or died and I did some stupid stuff and I didn't care for my health and neither did I care for yours and the so ended up the common honor the summer major academy at the time after I had that episode he had made me an appointment with mental health and and so now I got to go prove to these quacks that I don't have PTSD and then I got to go see him when I get done and so when I go to see and this little old lady in tennis shoes and bless her heart if I ever met that little old lady again I would get on my knees and apologize because I went in there was such an attitude that she feared for her health and refused to be in the same room with me so I go see the commandant and he said something that registered because I always preached my leaders lead by example if you got tell me how good of a leader you are I do not want you on the team if your actions tell me how good of a leader you are I want you on the team but you'd better live what you preach and I was expecting to get kicked out of the summer major academy and he sent me down he had my listed record brief on his desk and he said out of these and he asked me why if I knew why he had it made appointment mental health Roger see if I have PTSD or not he said no out of all of these deployments how many NCOs did you force to get help and it registered like you know you idiot you're doing the exact same things you've been looking for in your guys that you forced to get help but somehow you're not living up you're not practicing your own preaching so I go give mental health and on a separate and so I go to mental health and they hooked me up with this really big psychiatrist male about seven foot tall weighed about 250 pounds had fingers like bananas and so I had a few sessions with him but he was on his way out of Fort bless and so my next psychiatrist was a little lady in tennis use miss Pierce and she was good and she picked up on this thing called traumatic brain injury we didn't know a lot about that at the time and as if I'd ever been screened well no I mean I don't have any holes in my head I got on my marbles up there I thought so she sent me over to CBI clinic they did MRIs and motor skill tests and memory tests and all this stuff and the doc told me look the front left low but your brain is bruised entire low which was probably an injury I got right before I redeployed that last deployment and by the way I redeployed two weeks later and saw a major academy and I'd fell off a cliff a rock and follow me smashed me on the head smashed my helmet and I was unconscious for I don't know how long but I had these headaches and but everything's good I'm good but the doc said on time you got him the bruise will heal itself over time but you got another problem and that same lobe about the size of a 50 cent piece is dead tissue and that's what you had an aneurysm during one of your head injuries and that dead tissue is never going to grow back so kind of like the Toby Keith song you're not going to be as good as you once was but we'll get you as good as you as I am now but that's actually what broke the camel's back was now on top of all that other stuff I'm dealing with and I'm going to say the R word so please nobody get offended I thought I was retarded now and I got doctor papers to prove it and they're not going to let me be a song major if my brain ain't right they're not going to probably won't get me out of the army this is all I've done in my adult life I have nothing else to turn to and they probably not a lot of job market out there for retarded people and I was very retarded and thinking that way and so that's in my mind there's one common denominator in every problem I had and there was one common denominator in all my friends problems my family's problems in the world problem that was my world not the actual world and now the one thing I had that I led for was supporting my kids and I can't I'm not going to be able to do that but if I die I can't take care of my kids through benefits but so I don't want to put a pistol in my mouth and pull the trigger as much as I wanted to because I didn't want to jeopardize my kids getting the benefits and so I decided to stage an accident while my motorcycle and Trans Mountain Road that comes down out of the mountain to East El Paso has a perfect place for where road makes a sharp curve to the left there's these picnic tables rock walls and and as you're coming down you're facing one of those walls and you can drive straight if you don't turn you're going to hit that wall and that when I found that man oh that's the spot I even rehearsed it but I couldn't execute right then because I got to make sure my affairs are in order to take care of my kids and that was my time stamp and I rehearsed that plan numerous times while I'm getting my my affairs in order I drive to the top and I'd race that motorcycle down that mountain and I'd slow down right before I got to the curve and I rehearse I can't tell you how many times I rehearsed it knowing on this day all my pain and everybody's problem is going to go away so the uh the day of execution I go up to the top of the mountain like I like I'd rehearsed and I'm screaming down the mountain well by the time I made to the top turned around and come back down somebody parked a stupid car between the curve and that wall and with my luck I'm going to hit the car I'm going to get ejected over the side of the mountain probably break my neck and then I'm going to be a paraplegic and I won't be able to off myself if I wanted to and I'll probably do a strong poop and a diaper the rest of my life somehow I got that motorcycle under control went sideways around the curve both tires smoking the people in the car looking me like it was an idiot which I was and I go back up and I park and I'm and this goes to something that that that coach this is going to reiterate something the coach said earlier I pulled on side of the road and I'm waiting for the car to move so I can execute the plan and while I'm sitting there the phone in my pocket rings I don't answer it because I'm on a mission and it goes to voicemail and then it rings again and I let it go to voicemail and it rings again and I let it go to voicemail and I said all right I want to answer stupid phone somebody won't leave and I answer the phone and on the end of that on the other end of that phone was a little girl a little girl's voice and she talked to me off the mountain that day now that little girl would later become my wife we weren't married at the time and what to show what coach said is you can call that intervention intuition whatever you want to call it I think there was both I think God intervened by wanting the people to park the car and look out you can see war is from that from that point then the intuition was Teresa just had a feeling that she needed to call and check on me and I didn't answer the phone and she called back and I asked her later how many times would you to call and she said you know I was getting in the car when you answered the phone and I was going to keep calling until I found you or you answered the phone and and the lesson I took from that right now if you start weighing on my mind I'm going to call because you do not know what's on the other end of that phone and sometimes just a simple hello makes a huge difference because I told the story I did a trade-off leader professional development session to all the senior leaders in trade-off and a lot of the force com senior leaders dialed in general Garrett was one of my brigade commanders when he found out about it yes his senior leaders dial in but general funk asked me a question nobody had ever asked me before and he said what was it that Teresa told you to talk to you off that mountain and I said sir nobody's ever asked me that and I don't know I cannot remember that conversation I remember her calling me but I was distraught I cannot right now I cannot tell you what she said to me and so when I got home I talked to her about it and she said you know I don't think it's what I said I think it's the fact that I said something because at that point I generally thought no one cared I generally thought everybody would be happier if I was out of the out of the equation and that I mean it registers so so hard with me the uh so now I'm gonna give mental health another effort I go back see miss Pierce all right well you all that stuff you's helped me with now I got this other problem thanks to you and I didn't say that to her but now I've got the tbi thing going on and so the tbi clinic you gave me some medicines and stuff try to put me in my REM sleep try to I mean if I don't take my medicine you'll know because I'll bounce around like a freaking idiot and another pill to help with my headaches another pill if I have a headache coming on and it's like the best Tylenol you'll ever take it's like I call it my magic pill and uh but I'm not taking pills I'm not going to get medicated I took a cup of oil they made me feel funny I started drooling I'm not really drooling on myself but I felt kind of loopy and stuff I ain't doing it and so miss Pierce she told me look if you don't take your medicine I'm not talking to you because it's pointless and she said in fact don't even make another appointment unless you start following what we're telling you so at this point I know I can't I've already tried to float this ship and it sunk I need her so I take my stupid medicine and what I found out was over time my body I mean it was not a not even a month my body got used to it and I felt fine when I took it but now when I don't take it you'll know it because I'll get cranky and bounce around like an idiot but so then we start working through that but here's how far off the deep end I was is I was sent to the intense inpatient treatment and there's a facility in El Paso that nobody knows about unless the only reason you drive back there is if you have you were going there and it's up against the mountain down the road from the the hospital towards the mountain and I got dropped off about 50 feet from the door and it felt like I walked five miles to get to that door and that's the heaviest door I've ever opened in my life that was and I would tell you out of all the deployments of firefights and close calls with death and and everything walking in that door is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life knowing that they're going to take everything but my toothbrush and I'm not walking out of there till they're done with me and I don't know what I'm going to be like when I walk if I ever walk out of there but I tell you that's the best thing I could have ever done for myself so just like coach said this happened I did not breathe a word to nobody I did not want anybody know I got to that point and Teresa kept talking to me about talking about it and I said no I'm not going to no because it's going to limit what I can do in the army I'm just starting out my career as a Sergeant Major uh I know but he's going to know about this and so oh I don't know it was probably about four or five years after that incident and I shared the story with a fishing buddy of mine Cliff Bowman who was in the Pentagon when he got attacked and he has a really unique story and he talks about it publicly and he had taught me how to share his story so he ended up there's a unit there unfortunately used to just that I'll share it with and when I and this is the first time I told my story to a crowd of people and when I walked out a lieutenant followed me outside and he's so major can I talk to you well yes sir you must what's what's up he's just so major this is on a Friday I did the LPD with him he's just so major I was not coming to work Monday Saturday was my day that I was going to end everything and when they told me we're doing suicide training I was expecting the chaplain to come in the death by powerpoint he said that and and I really didn't have a presentation I just talked I just sat there in front of him he just talked but he said so major I need help I got to get help but I don't know where to go or how to do it that's where I got you in fact I put him in the truck and I drove him but what he hit me was wow the first time I told my story and I saved a freaking life and so that started what I'm doing now and trying to share the story and I would tell you that and I said this in that trade-off LPD I guarantee you there's senior leaders out here listening to me talk right now they experience the exact same thing that has never told a story how many leaders getting a civilian clothes before they go to mental health appointments because they don't want subordinates to see them or they make a deal to come in the back door or they even go off posts their installation to get help if if we want to flatten the stigmas leaders got to talk and I've always made it a point in fact so I'm down to Fort Jackson right now we just did address only your competition we just finished it up that's why I was late getting on the computer but Friday before I left Fort used us to drive down or add a mental health appointment I went home and got in uniform to go to my mental health appointment to sit in the waiting room with the soldiers so they see Sergeant Major is getting help just like me if it's good if it's okay for him it should be okay for me so I mean I don't want to take up a whole lot of time with this but I would tell you that or the other thing I say is I think over time we've always talked about signs of suicide what are the signs of suicide look for the signs and I've dealt with so many suicides unfortunately directly dealt with them and I've sat on a tremendous amount of suicide review boards as we try to put the pieces of the puzzle together and there's two things that I've learned mine included once there's a plan the signs go away when I had my plan finalized there was a sense of relief that I cannot explain to you you could I was living in my travel trailer you could have burnt the trailer down stole my truck don't steal the motorcycle because I need that part of the plan I would have been fine because I knew this day it didn't matter and the other thing that I tell you though is as leaders we're not even leaders just peers we got to identify we got to get to the point we got to earn the trust and confidence of our peers and subordinates to build identified crisis and get ahead of it before we get to the point of ideation on it and and just as coach said earlier when he was talking about numbers I will add this to it or this to the numbers most of the time if somebody comes out and just comes with you if you've got their trust and confidence and in my presentation I talk about how do you gain that but chances are they have not developed a plan they don't have a method they've never really thought how they're going to do it so why do we react to it or people ask why do we react to it and I tell them you know if you they're testing the waters just like in my case to see if does anybody care and if we don't react to it we answered the mail yeah nobody does care so now they go to the next phase the ideation now we get to the plan and then if nobody is stepped in we get to the point of execution but I'll stop there though so we can we can get on no I don't want to take up the whole night well sorry man thank you thank you again for telling me what is a very powerful story and there's a couple things I'd like to revisit just for half a second here that gets to what Jen was talking about you had two safety nets comment on to the sergeant's major academy and thank god for Teresa and her intuition so to me that underscores what Jenny was talking about that even when you don't think you have a safety net you've got a safety net you're right you've got a safety net um and just the fact that you would put the challenge out there to senior leaders to do the right thing and lead by example you're right when I was a young soldier back in the 90s that was the time frame where oh that guy's got to go to mental health he's broke he's a broken soldier so we're just gonna shove him off to like you said a headquarters company somewhere but nowadays with a complete 180 on how we look at mental health and how we look at support for soldiers and support for families it is important that that young specialist or that young lieutenant sees a sergeant major sees a colonel walking in in uniform to get help because that's the biggest signal out there that it is okay to get help it's our major yeah you know you just rung a bell that I have to talk about you know we've grown up in in society and even in the army we've grown up and we've made mental health we use mental health as a reaction to crisis we got to get away from that mental health should be maintenance we go and do our annual health checkups we get our dental checkups our ears and eyes but we don't do our mental checkup and and when as I talk this I use I use my one of my hobbies drag racing I love drag racing and we put those motors through so much abuse and I've blown up more motors than I can count and I and when I have a motor blow up when I get back to the shop I pull the motor out I take it apart I find out what went wrong and then I try to put preventive measures in there so it doesn't go wrong again rebuild the motor put it back in the car if I don't maintain that motor I'm rebuilding again and we got to look at mental mental health as a maintenance and quit looking at it as a reaction to crisis couldn't agree with you more especially as a car guy that's the perfect analogy to make maintenance and and we've talked about this before at the headquarters da level you know talking about you know if you go to the dock for a broken arm you get fixed if if you've got something internal going on with your body you go and get that taken care of and nobody thinks anything about it they don't think twice about it you're absolutely right on the money sergeant major it should be the same philosophy for when folks need to go get some mental health and I think that the army has turned a whole chapter on that I think we still have work to do I think we still need more leaders to step up and tell their story just like you are so that you know young joe sitting in the audience or young jane sitting in the audience goes you know what wow wow now they trust you now they can relate to you and now they know it's okay to get some help or conversely now they know uh I just I know this soldier's got a problem and they're my buddy now I know I need to go say something to them like you said could be a simple hello and that's all they need to change their mind about doing things so sergeant major thank you thank you so much some really powerful moments here tonight unfortunately we are out of time but before we sign off I want to turn it back over to Kerry Schultz who will close this out with a reminder of some of the resources that are available out there carry over to you thank you and thanks to all the panel members really I appreciate you sharing your heartfelt stories and and being very vulnerable I think all of you discuss that that is really key in this space is being authentic and vulnerable and thank you so much for showing us what that looks like just a reminder that again we are here to help we we we do aim to help I would direct you to our army resilience website which is www.armyresilience.army.mil and we have amazing resources to our resilient centers to finding resources by risk and being able to connect I would also recommend you know in each of your installations posts and stations to really look for the community resource guide and other helping agencies to help you connect into those resources suicide prevention month is September and our tagline is connect to protect support is in with reach so it's really important that even if you don't see the risk in yourselves maybe look to a buddy to a friend to a family member and reach out connect with each other connect and just check in to see how people are doing suicide prevention is personal and it's interpersonal so I just appreciate so much all the great comments from the panel members and Hank I'll turn it back over to you carry thank you so much there's also a list of links to mental health resources that we've dropped down in the comments section we encourage you to familiarize yourself with them please get to know your chaplain and other resources and leaders be leaders and take care of your soldiers we hope tonight's conversation has helped give you hope strength and courage to take your first step in getting help if you're hurting you're not alone and you don't have to suffer in silence we want to give a special thank you to all of our panel members for taking time to share their stories getting raw and getting emotional and sharing their feelings about what is a very very serious issue and finally just want to thank you for joining us virtually and thank you for taking the time to watch I'm Hank Manitrez and we'll see you next time