 And this webinar is being hosted by our iSchool Diversity Committee, but also in conjunction with our College of Professional Global Education Academic EDI Committee. And we want to welcome you here today for a webinar on humble leadership as a humble practice. This session is being recorded and the recording will be available on our YouTube channel after the session, usually within a week or two. I'd like to introduce our speaker for today, Zane Goodman. Zane Goodman is a health sciences librarian at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, where she supports three schools in her work in the division of health sciences, the School of Integrated Health Sciences, School of Public Health and School of Nursing. She'll be speaking with us today about the concept of humble leadership and its application in librarianship. I do have to say I studied Shine I have my book with all my notes. Yeah, in my doctoral work so I was really excited to see this topic and I'm interested in learning from you as I'm sure attendees are around how we can apply this within our profession so I'm going to turn it back back over to you Zane. Okay. Hi, everyone. Good morning. I would like to thank Dr. Villagran for this invitation to talk with you all today about humble leadership as a humble practice. So I want to invite you all to go along with me on this journey during this webinar as I share with you my ideas about what I've been thinking and reading about related to humble leadership as a humble practice. Before I begin, I want to, I want to offer land acknowledgement for where I am located. I wish to acknowledge and honor the indigenous communities of this region. I'm in Las Vegas, Nevada. What is called Las Vegas, Nevada now I want to recognize that the university that I'm at is situated on the traditional homelands of the new movie Southern Paiute people. I offer gratitude for the land itself for those who have stewarded it for generations for the opportunity to study, learn, work and be in community with this land. My university encourages everyone in this space to engage and continue learning about indigenous peoples who work and live on this land since time immemorial, including the Las Vegas Paiute tribe and the Moapa Band of Paiutes. And also to learn about the historical and present realities of colonialism as one of the most diverse universities in the United States. UNOB believes it's important to recognize and appreciate the use of Southern Paiute land as part of its mission to be a welcoming and inclusive place for working and learning. Thank you for listening and you may watch a version of this land acknowledgement I have on my slide here but I'll also put it in the chat for you later so you can watch a version of this. So here's the outline of my talk today I'm going to talk to y'all give you an overview about the history and origins of humble leadership. I'm going to talk about key characteristics of this concept. I'm going to share the value and significance and connected to a framework that I've developed looking at humble leadership as a humble practice. And I'm going to talk about some limitations and criticisms of this concept. I first want to begin by sharing with you a definition of leadership, and I want to also say that my background really informs how I think about topics of diversity and inclusion. I'm a born and raised Detroit or who grew up in the city, not the suburbs, and that particular experience undergirds my thinking and approach to topics of diversity and inclusion. So I want to begin here with this definition by North House is the seminal textbook by Peter North House on leadership. He defines leadership as a process whereby an individual influences a group of individuals to achieve a common goal. I want to give you an opportunity to share with us how you might be leadership so have this mentee poll here you could go to mentee calm and use the code. I think Dr. Villagrand will put that in the chat for you. It's 20148218, and I'm going to give folks time to populate that poll I'm going to stop share and I'm going to pull up the mentee screen fully. Okay, so I see some comments coming in someone who listens active listening as a humble practice. I'm getting an enabling others guiding your team inspiring and guiding inspire lots of inspiration team builder. Lots of good comments communication listening. There's lots people are contributing a lot here thank you for sharing all of these thoughts. I'm going to come back to a few of these as humble practices as we go on so I'm going to stop share once more. I'm going to share my slides for you again here. So, when we think about humble leadership humble leadership is an emergent topic and this is a definition that I've come up with for humble leadership. I see humble leadership as an emergent approach to organizational leadership that's influenced by philosophical and historical context of varied religious traditions that view humility as a virtue. So humble leadership aims to distinguish humility as a dispositional trait of humble persons that is maximized in organizational settings to be relationally oriented, thereby contributing to trust and openness. So in this definition of humility. It describes humility as a dispositional trait, and I want to define for you what I mean by trade so Nordhaus describes trait as being applicable to a leader as in a leader has the certain traits for example, extraversion or height. Oxford dictionary describes trait as considered to be something that is part of an individual's personality, and therefore a long term characteristic of an individual that shows you their behavior action or and feelings. So some view humility as a concept with both state and trait like characteristics and state refers to a condition. So this could be a temporary condition that a person is experiencing for a short period of time. After the state passes they return to another condition. So all people have temporary states for example being calm in a certain situation or being angry in certain situations. Those are the actual states. There is some debate about both of these terms. Sometimes there's some confusion, even about the use of state and trait, but I wanted to lay out definitions for both of these concepts as we begin to talk about humble leadership. So now I want to transition to talk a little bit about humility and humble leadership and I'd like to begin by sharing a timeline. So, humility is seen as a timeless moral virtue or vice seen in religious and philosophical traditions by virtue I am using a definition from Solomon, where he described virtue as a pervasive trait of character that enables someone to fit into society. Morris describes humility and I quote as a personal orientation founded on the willingness to seize a self accurately and a propensity to put oneself and perspective involving neither self debasement, nor overly positive self regard. Humility as a construct to be examined within organizational literature is relatively new within the last 20 years. So Collins you see on the timeline in 2001 begin to articulate in his seminal book Good to Great, why some companies make the leap and others don't. The qualities of CEOs who were able to move a company from good to great, and his articulation of humility. Collins described personal characteristics of CEOs who presented as humble, while Morris and others, they describe humility as a virtue. Well, Peter see Peterson and Siegelman. These are positive psychologists in their 2000 and four study of positive psychology. They focused on virtues and strengths as a way to measure humility, while other scholars also grapple with how to describe humility as a leadership style that can be enacted to produce outcomes organizationally. And we see that on the timeline and the work of Morris Austin, Owens and Heckman, and Nelson and more on. When we move down to 2013. The book published by Nelson, Maron and Ferrero. The father of organizational development and this author of humble leadership is Dr. Ed shine. Ed shine is credited with creating the term of humble leadership. He is emeritus professor of the MIT Institute Sloan School of Management. He first articulated the what of humble leadership in 2018 shine described the act of personal not personizing relationships to develop trust and openness as central to humble leadership and I'm going to explain what personizing means later. Dr shines work attempted to add to the discourse about humility as a trait and a state by delineating ways of being and habits of mind to enact humble leadership and organizational settings. So this is his most recent book to 2021. He published humble inquiry so Dr shine works with his son. That's his son whom he works with. So now onto an initial definition of humility by Morris. So a discussion of humility does require some examination of the religious traditions because humility is most frequently viewed as a moral virtue. Judaism, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are described humility in their sacred texts, and some texts humility is seen as submission. While within Christianity, it is widely believed that humility enables people to see others as worthy of love and compassion. This is from Huzinga. Humility as a concept is rooted in philosophical and religious traditions and humility as a trait is found to overlap with other well established leadership styles, authentic leadership and servant leadership. I've been thinking about humble practices and how we engage and practice as librarians and the workplace with our colleagues and with our patron. And as I've been thinking about this topic, I've been thinking about an acting humility humility in the workplace and having a humble practice. I realized that thinking about this topic and more concrete concrete terms might be relevant for us as practitioners so reading the work of how to want hodge. One of my best scholar and other scholars in the helping professions like nursing and social work have helped me to think about humble humble leadership as a type of humble practice that one can be intentional about developing and engaging with. I want to share with you on these characteristics of humble leaders that I found within the literature. There's some discourse about the development of a theory of humble leadership, however, unlike some of the other leadership theories described in the Seminole North House textbook, where a theory exists that describes a leadership approach, humble leadership as a theory is emergent. Therefore, key characteristics of humble leadership are emergent as well. So Nelson at all in 2018 described strong relational orientation as a key characteristic of humble leadership. And these are other characteristics which I won't read all of these to you but these are other characteristics of humble leaders that I found in the literature. And just want to give you a moment to digest some of those. So these, there's these characteristics of humble leaders but then there's personal humility and Per Collins in 2001 I mentioned earlier his seminal book good to great. He delineated four features of a humble leader columns describe these features of having the ability to move a company from good to great as number one, demonstrating a compelling modesty and shunning public public adulation and never being boastful. Number two, acts with quiet calm determination relies principally on inspired standards, not inspiring charisma to motivate folks. Number three, channels ambition into the company, not the self sets up successors for even greater success in the next generation. And number four, looks out the window, not in the mirror to a portion credit for the success of the company to other people so external factors and good luck so looking out the window rather than looking at the self and if you haven't read good to great I highly recommend. That's a, it's a wonderful book. So those are the four features of personal humility that Collins found but then there's just a little bit of what I've been thinking of as theorized humility from Nelson and maroon. And they describe these three characteristics of a humble leader. So this idea that it's not that you're not. And now that you're not confident, but it's that you're willing to see yourself accurately so you see yourself as a leader with your thoughts, as well as with your strengths. So you're not having a false sense of humility and downplaying your strengths, rather you see yourself, accurately, also having an appreciation of others. So having the ability to appreciate one staff, how the work that folks are doing, and also the ability to appreciate those whom you serve. So think about libraries and then teach ability, having the ability to be a lifelong learner I'm going to share with you just a little while in a little bit. My pillars of cultural humility and how this fits together. So I think this this core that Nelson and maroon share with us. It represents this intrapersonal and intrapersonal and intrapersonal aspects of humility. So how we relate with one, how we relate with one another and our workplaces I think this is a really important aspect of that. So there's some other like down in the dirt aspects of cultural humility that shine really outlined so these are things that I thought were really helpful and concrete. And having the ability to run effective meetings. It's valuing others time he describes that as a home and having being a humble leader, building strong teams. He also has this concept of personization or professional intimacy and I think it's really important to define this for you. He defines personization as doing something informal together away from work, taking a walk or having a meal. He discusses the importance of working with direct reports and close collaborators, and focusing on building the relationships to establish openness and professional intimacy so they just shine and shine. In 2018 they described levels of relationships with the key relationship being this level two type of relationship. So this level two type of relationship is not transactional. It's characterized by personization or this professional intimacy as I've just defined. What I'm describing is getting to know your colleagues and workmates, beyond transactional relationships so this is really focusing in libraries I'm thinking about the relationships that we have with one another with our colleagues. So getting to know our work colleagues and workmates beyond transactional relationships. The humble leader is described by shine and shine will get shine and shine will get to know others at the more personal level in order to develop a higher level of openness and trust. And the person who is open in other words has some willingness to be vulnerable, as well as an ability to create a trusting atmosphere. A humble leader is acting with openness and makes a choice to add an emphasis, not only on metrics, but on what happened and when it happened. So other characteristics of humble leadership humble of a humble leader includes creating these different types of teams and highly structured hierarchies. So the way that I have been thinking about libraries is that libraries are often very hierarchical and humble leadership pushes up against that and suggests that you can create these level two teams, even in highly structured setting so this personization that creates intimacy and trust by focusing on relationships and establishing trust beyond the workplace. So a humble leader can work anywhere in the organization, but is vulnerable to senior executives of support and the essence of humble leadership is maintaining an acute focus on interpersonal group dynamics. So I want to transition here to connect humble leadership to my thinking about cultural humility and as a way to view humble leadership as a practice within these three pillars of this framework that I developed. So, thinking about talent at a level to relationship so you're not just looking at what folks are doing you're developing these relationships you're talking with people you're going for walks with people you're connecting with people. So I've developed this framework of these three pillars of what I think of as cultural humility. And so the first pillar is the idea of making this commitment to learning. And it refers to a person having this habit of mine, or way of being that you're a lifelong learner who deliberately and bravely establishes a practice of rigorous self reflection and critique. So you're learning, but you're also practicing this self reflection and critique and I think that's a part of what Marrone said earlier being aware of yourself. And then pillar two is acting to remove power imbalances by having a willingness to acknowledge and dismantle power differentials based on authority or position. So, in the library context, I think about this in terms of if one has a supervisory role and they can act in that supervisory role to eliminate power imbalances. I also think it up about it in terms of peer to peer, how we might be able to eliminate power imbalances with our peers. So really acting to remove those power imbalances and even when I think about how we serve our patrons. There's also ways that we can act to remove power imbalances so we can act to remove power imbalances by haptics by how we position ourselves. Prosimics, for example, so we can commit the last pillar is pillar three, which is commit to connect and it refers to making a commitment to connect with the community one serves or supports. So, this is the idea that we commit to the community that we're supporting and that we act in ways to move beyond transactional relationships with that community. So cultural humility challenges us to practice self reflection through a process of committing to learning. And I want to think about this. This this idea of this bridge call leadership, and this is from the work of Dr. Sonya hoist for horseford, who described the concept of bridge leadership for educators in the 21st century. And I'm thinking about humble leadership as a potential bridge for others. So you can act to remove power imbalances to support others. And also humble leadership does something that Robinette suggests in their 1997 article that includes the acknowledgement of hierarchical features of leadership. So I'm connecting this idea of humble leadership to this framework of cultural humility and situating humble leadership as a humble practice within this framework of cultural humility. So, to do that, let's take a look at the levels of relationship that shine describes. So he describes these three levels for levels of relationships. So I want to share with you so the first level is in the upper left quadrant. It's the level one minus relationships so these are total and personal domination and coercive relationships in the workplace. And level one relationships would be these transactional role and rule based supervisor relationships and he describes this in his work as these are the types of relationships that we see a lot in the helping professions, where it's rule based supervision. So at the circulation desk, you have the team leader who's the supervisor, you have the folks who are working at the circus so there's like, they are doing the transaction is rule based supervision. And level two relationships, these are personal cooperative trusting relationships as in friendships, and they occur in effective teams. So, I really like the way shine describes this level to relationship because he's not suggesting. He's not suggesting that people at work have to be your best, but he's not suggesting that but he's suggesting that we really try to develop these personal cooperative trusting relationships and friendships. And I think I'm thinking about the work of liaison librarians, for example, liaison librarians often work in teams and they have to be highly collaborative and cooperative. There's some sticking points with developing trust right depending on the culture and the environment of the institution, where folks are laboring. So this level level three relationship that shine describes is emotionally intimate and it's a total mutual commitments. So I want to like give you a little bit more of the definitions of these relationships how he describes them. And then me reading them to you I'm going to give you a moment to read them. And I've highlighted the key words in each one of these relationships that I'd like you to take a look at and then I'm going to talk just a little bit more I'm going to give you a moment to read. We just focus in on the level to relationships you can again see as I've discussed just a bit earlier that these these level two relationships. It's the it's the really getting to know one another at a more personal level. Some people may be uncomfortable with that. But I think what's happened during the pandemic is that some of the walls may have been broken down, and folks are getting to know one another at a more personal level this may or may not be true and libraries across the nation. But I think it certainly happened in some of the libraries that I've been working in over during the course of the pandemic and relationships I've had with others that I've seen some getting to know one another at a more personal level so when we think about moving on to this quadrant of leadership so these quadrants of leadership. So we have relational at the top of the quadrant and then humble leadership and the right quadrant so we have relational and personal so humble leadership fits within that quadrant and this transactional and heroic leadership this so heroic leaders are those leaders who are focused on I that so they're focused on I and focus on the transactions, whereas the humble leadership is focused on the not deeply personal but on the personal and the personalized personalization and relational aspect of relationships. So I want to share with you now like getting to a humble leadership practice so to get to this practice, Dr shine has some things that he recommends. He recommends doing focus reading and reflecting, and he caused this desk work because he recommends that you do this at your workplace. So at the end of this talk, I have a short list of books that he recommends reading for reflecting on humble leadership and the desk work. He views it as drawing a relational map around yourself. With the names and titles of the people who are connected to you in the sense of expecting something from you. So if you're like me, a liaison librarian, who supports three schools, I used to use a tool called Coggle. Before I even knew about relational mapping I use the tool called Coggle to help me map all of the key players in all of my schools, because these will be all folks who would be expecting things from me. So Dr shine, Dr shine cause these folks your role senders. He provides a map and I'm going to share this map with you. And then he also talks about having some enhancement of your behavioral skills. So to be curious about people to have an interest in folks. This is the desk work map that he recommends that one used to draw a relation draw themselves in the center, and then all of the other role senders who you're relating to so in this example from the book shine and shine. He has included here your friends and your family as well but you can do this map in any way that works well for you. So now let's think about like the value and significance of cultural of of humble leadership as a humble practice so without the literature, these are some of the aspects of value and significance I found that humility as as a competitive advantage that having that one person can play a small role in a vast universe that flatter organizations, encourage bottom participation, and having collaborative behaviors that include information sharing and joint decision making. I don't know if people are like me I don't like it when folks make decisions and then just want me to just go along with the decision. It's nice to be included in the decision making so having collaborative behaviors. These are characteristics of humble leadership, the value and significance of it in the workplace, having an interdependence with one another. And these are some of the actual companies that that were listed in not just the not just in shine and shines work, but this these are companies that I found also in Jim Collins's work, and I want to make a note that in June of this year. Ikea they had some problems with their Juneteenth menu and there's been some changes, for example, Herb Keller is no longer the president at Southwest Airlines, but these are companies that value humility. So humble leaders have to operate on different levels to form these kind of level to commit connections, they have to move beyond self related outcomes to positive outcomes for their followers teams and organizations that result from leader humility so the outcomes could include employee engagement retention and psychological engagement team integration and performance and firm performance the performance of the organizational the organization overall and innovation in the organization. So I would like to share with you. Another mentee poll, and ask you how does this concept of humble leadership challenge any ideas you might have about hierarchical levels of leadership within libraries or research environments. So I'm going to stop share here and I'm going to share the mentee poll to see what the audience says explodes hierarchy. Okay. Difficult, yeah. Boundaries right boundaries are important. A dream. Inclusive hard. Okay. Anti social workers. Need to be vulnerable. Trust and authenticity. Okay. Lots of comments. Difficult is difficult is really centered here. Japanese office. Oh, that's an interesting comment. Just a few more coming in. Okay. I think our word cloud has difficult as the the biggest thing value and needed change. Leaders must be human. So this really challenges some of our ideas about hierarchical levels of leadership in libraries. Hmm. I used to live and work in Japan too. So this is interesting. Okay. So I'm going to escape and share my slides again thank you all for participating in this poll may share here and I'm going to go back to my slides. So, um, how does, so how does this intersect with other levels, other leadership styles. So humble, humble leadership or humility. It overlaps in all three of these leadership styles, the concept of humility does. And I have here so on the upper left quadrant authentic leadership. Authentic leadership is described as the leader possesses integrity to have a profound sense of self awareness that includes their strengths knowledge and morals. So I'm concerned about followers with less power and greater need for help value self they value self expression, and the upper right quadrant, I have servant leadership, and this describes a servant leadership is described as a leader who converts followers into leaders prioritizes the needs of followers is concerned about followers with less power and a greater sense of self. So you can see like both of those types of leadership at least one element of them fits within my frame my pillars those pillars of cultural humility. And then the humble leadership describes appreciation for others focus on a transcend itself view that something greater than the self exists. There's an openness to feedback and growth and then humility connects all three of those. So how do you really measure humble leadership right so in this world of academia we often want to measure things so there are there are out there. The disk is the is one of the leadership tools that has a humble leadership that measures humble leadership within the eight dimensions of leadership. There's some other self report measures there's implicit association tests. These are ways that humble leadership is is measured. So in the self report with the disk, the dominance influence steadiness and conscientiousness, you see like humble, they have this one slice of their pie that measures humble leadership, and they describe these in the disk assessment, they describe strengths of a humble leader, and they describe the strengths of a humble leaders they're able to head off potential problems with careful planning. They provide others with the tools necessary to do they will their work, they're able to create the stable environments. They have their composure under pressure, even under stress. They're conscientious. They model steady work ethics they expect themselves and others to deliver accurate outcomes. So these are the ways that disk measures humble leadership but there's some limitations right. So, as we saw in our mentee poll within organizations there might be some resistance from bureaucratic hierarchical organizations that rely on transactional relationships, even though the even though humble leadership didn't even though shine and shine they don't focus on humble on the humble leadership and libraries libraries are highly transactional focused hierarchical organizations. There might be resistance to developing the soft skills required to personize and develop level two relationships, the call for vulnerability and developing relationships with work makes that are not transactional might be uncomfortable for some leaders within the covert 19 environment I mentioned this before environments and organizations have been forced to move into spheres of vulnerability within a generation they've not probably seem likely for for many many years. So within this new environment there still exists limitations so there may be as as was noted in the mentee poll resist us to change attention between new styles of leadership and ways that require working with vulnerability. Developing soft skills that create openness and trust and grappling with the question of can humility can be can humility be taught. So there's some criticisms also. There's some difficulty with measuring humbleness as noted by Davis. And how do you grow in humility in persons Nelson M. Rome pose that question. Shine and shine make it clear that the outcomes to an organization committed to humble leadership practices is more openness and trust. There is criticism though with a measurement in neoliberal environments where return on investment, or showing concrete outcomes as a mandate. There's difficulty with measuring humility. In addition to how telling to neoliberal mandates, Nelson M. Rome asked, how do you grow humility and people as an emergent leadership style humble leadership is still viewed as a trait like characteristic. So how do folks who are not humble develop humility. Lastly, if humble leadership is seen more as a trait or state like characteristic. There are two developed leadership styles already with well developed theoretical frameworks that already include humility as a trait or state. And those are servant leadership and humble leadership. So, my thinking is, if you want to go fast go alone but if you want to go far go together. The future of humble leadership is to look at the context over content to think about distributed power. Think about having a dynamic, organic dynamic organizational design these are some futures of humble leadership. So, I want to give you opportunity now to pause and recall your work history and think about any projects that went well this is from shine and shine. What are the relationships that you have with colleagues or managers or direct reports. Do you see any correlation between jobs that went well in these and strong level to relationships with work colleagues so those relationships where you got to know one another a little bit more beyond the workplace. And that's my question to you all. I'll let folks respond in the chat. Yeah, right those right those level two relationships. Right. So making it. Yep. This is, this is great. I'm saying, yeah. Wow. This is good. Wow. This is great. Wow. And so the projects that didn't go well distrust and resentments right so having the trust and the openness. Yes, wow the sense of belonging. Make the company much more for a while to be at thank you Caitlyn. Oh wow April is hashtag goals for this. Okay, Ted commitment to connect was easier. Okay. Yeah. Wow. This is really level to relationship level to even develop within projects. That's great. Yeah collaboration and having the levels of relationships that's important. Okay. So, we have, I want to thank you we have time for q amp a. I want to just share with you these two books by shine and shine and suggest you read them in North house even though it's a textbook it's a really good book. And these are all of some a few selected books by shine that he recommends also. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. This was so insightful. I really appreciate all of what you've shared and appreciate you and also the relationship or not relationship the relational mapping that exercise. It's a great place to start in my mind at least because then you see the different roles, and maybe the areas where you can make more traction or need to make traction will say. So I really appreciated that that mapping and the desk work right. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it calls it shine calls it desk work. Yeah. Let's go to the chat are there questions. There are so much rich content here. I was taking, I have like two pages here of just notes and like, I need to go back and dive deeper into these topics as I'm sure others do too. Oh, thank you. Let me just, I'm going to scroll all the way up make sure we didn't miss any questions from the beginning. A lot of thank yous and resonating with you and time very timely given where some individuals are in their workplaces. There was a question about the references will be shared so we, we post the recording however on the ice school website. We post the link and we can share your slides there as a PDF if you're fine with sharing the slides there. Yeah, I'm fine with sharing them. And then everyone can have access to the references. Okay. Thank you. And here, there are another question that came in. Do you have suggestions on what we can look for when hiring leaders, such as deans associate your deans etc either as participants and hiring committee members. Wow. You know, I, I just, I don't shine, shine and shine shine really talks about how he gave a really great example of, I don't know that you, you see this before you hire the person but when he gave a great example of hiring a leader for a Virginia system, and how that leader wanted to take everyone over to Japan to learn the certain way that they were doing this particular system, and people were really barking at that like why do we have to do that so it's, it's really difficult to know when you hire someone. It seems like you have to see them in action because you don't know sometimes a person you interview is not the person who shows up for the job. So it's really difficult I think to select for a humble leader unless you're looking at their past work so this person who was hired to take over this Virginia health system. They took all the folks to Japan they were very upset that they even have to go but then once they got there and they were learning this whole new process, and they came back and they were like, Oh, this was a really great idea so he was really working on these level to relationships building this like openness and trust but he had to get the job first to do that so I wish I had a better suggestion but I'm wondering if you could utilize whether it's a behavioral question right that maybe then draws out some of these traits, if it's you know worded property will say but that's the difficult part right the question should be. And I think we we all hopefully support one another in trying to create those questions that, of course to fill the position but that you can really see what that behavioral aspect if it can come out and like you said that's a hard one, but it's a great question. Here's another question, is there a way to nudge higher ups or decision makers to consider this model, probably hard statistics or what would you recommend. Maybe hard statistics if you were, for example, depending on what type of library you're in if you could look at how effective the teams are like how effective are the projects. You could make a case then for this model of humble leadership if you have people working with these level two relationships. They're very collaborative and they're effective with their output the outcomes because shy makes that point that the humble organization, humble leaders will have these high this output that outcomes from their folks so I think you can make a case with the output of people. What do you think. Hey son it looks like gathers agree in the chat a lot of dialogue. That might be a good starting point. We know, you know administrators higher ups like hard data, so you can justify it, or even if there's a case study. I think studies go a long way to especially successful case studies. Oh, that's a really good point. We have another question here. What do you suggest for people who supervise but not quite management and trying to change views of leadership, working in place that is trying to change and be innovative but also still really values the hierarchy and heroic leadership. So, if you don't quite supervise and you're not quite management maybe you lead by example like, you know how they say managing up. I think leading by example so how are you as a person who generates openness trust, and this personization of relationships. What do you suggest with your role senders, because that could be an example. I think that might be one way. That's a great suggestion. There might be other ways. What do others think. Yeah. I have a question earlier about with the interviewing also references so references and checking references the references may, you know, offer some response that might allude to back to this concept of humble leadership. And then using your network. See if you can get feedback from places they've worked before what kinds of leadership style they've demonstrated. Okay, there's a couple more questions here and I know we have about five minutes so see if we can get to these ones. Okay. See, we all want to go to Japan. Japan is great I recommend going. Here's another question. How do you practice humble leadership with direct reports who are underperforming the balance between encouraging them to improve versus letting them know that a change might be what will work best for both parties. This reminds me of the story and shine and shine, where he was talking about a higher up on Navy vessel, and there was a person on the vessel who had made a really bad error. And normally is the higher up wouldn't even talk to this person they would be an intermediary, but this person had to go to the higher up so the, the, the higher up didn't chastise the person but just laid out for them so I think like being honest and lay out for that performing person like this is the thing that's happened these these are the ways that we can fix it and if it can't be fixed and people do need the opportunity to leave and find a new opportunity. In this case it worked out well in the shine and shine book because the lower person was really afraid that this Admiral I can't remember the rank of the person but he was really afraid that this person that call them in but then he was everything worked out okay Is that does that answer your question. I don't know who that is. If it doesn't answer your question go ahead and put in the chat and won't circle back. Yeah, there was a follow up here and I think, and we might need more context but the question was do you have statistics from other organizations so I think that might go with the earlier question related to the hard data and showing that to decision makers but clarify me if I'm wrong. That was Susan clarify me if I'm wrong. And there's another comment to what do you do when you've gotten under. Okay, so what do you do when you've got an enterprise advisor who has explicitly said and this is a real quote, I don't reflect and I can't promise to be reflective in the future, when asked about how they work to grow as a leader, lots of managing up organizational and social strategies communication strategies. Yeah, do you do I cut my losses. That sounds like a hard situation. So, yeah, you have to think about your position. Can you find another position if that's not working for you. Sometimes we have to leave and I good to great if I know I mentioned that people should that was that's such a great book because I was thinking about it I wasn't. I hadn't read shine and shine yet before I read good to great and then I read shine shine I went back to good to great and I was like, Oh, this is, he's really he's really talking about these humble leaders like these people who really took these companies from good to great and so people like Lee I a cocoa who was like I I I like Chrysler Chrysler did not stay great it got sold off to another company because he just he couldn't he could not reflect on anything other than himself. And a follow up, I think with that is my suggestion, if they can't reflect maybe they can project. So can they share their growth plan. And maybe that's two more of engaging them in the practice so giving them that ownership as well. Yeah, that's good. Thank you for that. I have two minutes I don't see any other questions I hopefully did not miss any one. I want to give the floor back to Zan for a final if she has any, you know, final comments for us or words of wisdom we can take away or one last take away and then we'll close it out. I'm thinking about cultural humility and how it relates to libraries and developing some kind of model and framework as I think about these topics so thank you all for having me and please reach out if you have better ways I can think about this. Thank you. Thank you so much future collaborations right. Yeah, we really appreciate you and for being a part of sharing your time today your expertise and to thank all of the attendees for taking time out of your day to listen in and learn and continue to grow. So thank you again Zan. Thank you. I hope everyone has a great oh can we put your email in the chat. Oh yes, I will put my email in the chat. As we leave somebody asked. There it is. And if you have a Twitter handle. Oh, you know all the, all the ways we can connect with you. And it'll be on the slides and the recording. Okay. All right. Thank you all. Okay. Have a great day. Thank you. Bye bye.