 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ interview show where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. LGBTQ audience. I'd like to introduce Robin Joy, poet, writer, organizer, community organizer, events organizer. They wear a lot of hats. So let's let's start in by talking about and introducing Robin Joy. Thank you for coming. Thanks for having me. So I noticed from doing some research on you that you're involved in the writers for recovery, or you were? I still am. You still are. Can you talk a little bit about who's in the group? I mean, not names, but what kind of people and and how has the project worked for you? Sure. I've been writing with that group for several years. I got sober in 2016. So I think pretty early on in my sobriety, I connected with Gary Miller. I don't remember how, but I did. And so he facilitates a group, he does like 10 week blocks once a week. And he does, he'll give us a prompt and give us seven minutes to write on that prompt. And we do, depending on the discussion, we do one or two. And depending on how many people are in the group that night, it fluctuates. It moved to zoom during the pandemic, and it stayed that way. So we get people from all over the country, which is kind of fun, sometimes international. So it's a huge mix of people. It's a huge mix of people at different stages in their recovery, recovering from different things, different addictions. And it's just a safe space to write. And you don't even have to write about recovery necessarily. But a lot of times we hit on those topics. So we write for seven minutes, and then we do a read back. And then we talk about what was just read. And then we, you know, once that discussion is over, we do the next one. It's great. It's been a really great, helpful, helpful for me to process a lot of different things. And it's been, it's helped me as like an entry point into being a writer also. And so that's when you kind of started your writing career was like in 2016 when you joined this group? Yeah, more or less, I would say that that's accurate. I also did a workshop with Marjorie Ryerson. She's a local poet. I think that was a few years later. And that really pushed me into writing about like some deeper, deeper stories that I wanted to process. And I was sort of two or three years into my recovery at that point. So I was ready to think more deeply about other things. And so that those two in combination really propelled me. But we could talk more about the writers for recovery too, if we want to stay on that topic. Well, you know, I was thinking when you were saying that Zoom, I mean, the pandemic was awful, as everybody knows it's still here. But it really opened up a world in Zoom, I found, you know, a world in which we may not have discovered so easily, if it hadn't been for the for COVID. Yeah, bring people to book groups to, you know, recovery groups to any kind of group from all over the world. And I think that expansion is really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So I wasn't working at all for the first six months. And I had a lot of time. And, you know, it was a scary time. My husband has cancer. So we were being really cautious and pretty frightened, because we didn't know a lot about COVID at that time. But just stuck at home, like literally just like at home, unable to do anything, like getting people to drop groceries off for us at our doorstep. And so I found another workshop that's more international. It's set, the facilitator is in, she was in Louisiana at that time, but now she's in California. The poet that I love named Desiree Dalla Diacamo, her last name's challenging. But she facilitates a workshop every week, where we look at a poem, discuss it as a group, do some, some prompts and some, some little mini prompts and then bigger prompts, and then we write for however much time we might have like 20 minutes and then do a read back. And I write some great poems and I hear some incredible poems from that. So and I'm still doing that. So that's been three or three years, right? How long have we been in the pandemic? I don't even know, it's never ending, but 20, March of 2020, I believe. Yeah. So I've been doing that all along. And that's really that, that I think has shaped my voice a lot more as far as being a writer and, and helped me become better with my handle on language and how to write poetry and how to read it. And did you, do you find that you're writing to a particular audience, like people in recovery, or did it start that way and then expand into different kinds of ways of telling your story, but also reaching an audience? Yeah, that's interesting. Because I think a lot about who I'm writing for, because it definitely is I'm writing for myself to think from, to get perspective on things. I write from personal experience and personal stories, for the most part. Sometimes I write into nature and more existential things. But I write a lot about just stories, things that I've been through or experienced. And and then as I start publishing here and there, I think about what happens to that poem once it's out and who's reading it and if it changes as far as what it's about and who it's for at that point. I think a lot of, not a lot, but I think some of what I write about, it is recovery, a lot of it. But I also write about, you know, relationship circles I've been through, whether that be with my family or with primary relationships, mostly past some current chronic illness, mental illness, sexual identity, traumas I've been through, just all sorts of stuff. And I think I think a lot of that's relatable to a lot of different people. And I think it's also important to give voice to a lot of those things, because not everybody feels comfortable talking about it, but they might really like reading about it to feel less alone in those struggles. Absolutely. And, you know, do you feel like you're, I know you mentioned the woman writer in Louisiana, but are there people that have really touched you as writers or poets that really spoke to your condition, as Quakers would say. So, you know, for me, excuse me, when I was young, it was Sylvia Plath. I thought, oh my God, you know, and it's kind of transitioned over time. And I don't know, is that true for you too? Yeah. Yeah, I really liked Sylvia Plath and a little Emily Dickinson and just those, those traditional writers that we stumble upon when we were younger, Mary Oliver and just others like lovely poets. And then I really gotten into more modern poets in the last few years, Desiree being one of them, the facilitator of undercurrent that weekly workshop. Jeffrey McDaniels is another writer that I really love. He's written four or five books that I have. Bianca Stone is a writer that's more local. There's a musician, Kristin Hirsch, who she's not a poet per se, but she writes lyrics, which are poetry in themselves. And just the way she writes really gave me permission to write more the way words sound, more than what they mean. There is an underlying meaning, but I just, I write, I let myself, I allow myself to write phrases that are more metaphorical and that sounds good in my mouth and in my ears more than that makes sense immediately. Then that's sort of the style that she writes in that I really love. And do you have a writing schedule? Do you get up in the morning and say, oh, I'm ready to write or do you just go when you're inspired? Or how does that work for you? I, well, I briefly did the morning pages exercise. It didn't last too, I think I did it for like six months and it was great, but I have a hard time disciplining myself to do something like that. So that's when you get up and you write like three pages without thinking just whatever's on your mind, just stream of consciousness and just build three pages. And that's it. And it was, it was good. It was helpful and it would help me like get ready for the day. And then sometimes I'd have like these little nuggets of good things that I could use in writing later, but I'm not doing that anymore. I don't really have a schedule. I do have a schedule of workshops. So I do writers for recovery when that's in session and Gary does those quite frequently. So there's not really huge gaps of time. So I am doing that more or less once a week. And then Desiree does hers every Friday. So so I'm doing at least one workshop if not two. And sometimes I take on another one if there's time. So sometimes up to three workshops a week and I always get something out of each one, if not more than one poem. So I would say minimum of one to three poems a week are coming, coming out of me. And then sometimes inspiration. So and in, and you also work. I do. I work full time. And what do you do there? I work in the community relations department. I've been there nearly 20 years, which is insane for me to think about. I, I primarily right now, not primarily, well, yeah, primarily right now I'm doing the social media. So I do like all of our Instagram, Facebook and right now Twitter, but I'm not sure how much longer we're going to stay there. But I've really focused this year on making that more educational. So looking at things like observances and holidays around the world and a different religions and educating about that and different foods and cultures and just like making it more, more of a story and less of a sales pitch. But also integrating like what's, what's for sale, what's good, what's healthy that were that we have in the store to bring people in also. But that's my main focus, because we're not really doing events. And we haven't for since the pandemic hit. And that was one of my, that was one of the things that I was part of before, like workshops and community events and our annual meeting and all those things that are no longer happening in person. So we're working to get some of that back, at least hybrid, if not in person completely. So I think my job will shift a little bit at that point. But it's community relations. So things like where our donations get allocated and reaching out to get people discounts when there's food insecurity and that sort of thing. That's great. And they used to do concerts. Didn't they do it this year? Like concerts on the green or? Yeah, the brown bag lunch series. We did do that this year. So we sponsor that it's through Montpellier live. So we partner with Montpellier live quite a bit. They'll do events and we'll sponsor it. And so we'll push some advertising and we'll give them some funds to make sure that they get underway. And they do. Yeah, they do an incredible amount of work in our city. You know, they do so many different different kinds of community events and things that people love. So we like supporting them. And where are you from Robin originally, Vermont or? Yeah, I grew up in Barrie, so I'm local. I lived in Burlington for a while. I went to college at UVM. I lived very briefly in Arizona for like this little snippet, not even a year. But mostly I've lived in Vermont. I've been in Montpellier for several like, gosh, when did I come back here? Probably in my 20s. So I've probably been here nearly 30 years, if not definitely 20. Yeah. And in addition to all your work, you do community organizing and I know you're doing poetry series at the front art gallery on very street. Yeah, so that's, I just started that I just launched that in November. Um, myself in Tucson, who's a local poet, read for the first one. And then we just did one or no October, sorry, excuse me. And then in November, I had Jeff Hewitt and Samantha Colbert. And then this month is you, which is exciting. And another poet named rain, this and Riley. So I've just been, I really wanted to have a platform for local poets to be heard and not necessarily poets that we see at events often, but poets that we may necessarily not have heard of before that want to show their work and that want to get out into the, into the community. Myself included. There's so many, there's so many. And I want to read my stuff out too. And I want to, and I want to be a part of, I want to know more poets and I want us to network with each other. And I'm pretty introverted and shy and being sober. It's, I don't go out and meet people very much. So this felt like a good way for all of us. Because I know a lot of shy poets. I know there are a lot of shy poets. We don't know each other because we're shy. So this would be a helpful thing for us to network. So I've just been asking people that I know that are writers and then finding, finding new ones along the way, asking them if they know someone that they think that they would like to read in. It's growing organically on its own and I'm scheduled through May right now. And I've just sort of put a stop on that because I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. But I think I think it'll keep going. I don't, I don't see it ending or fizzling out. I think people are hungry for it. So. And that was, you know, what I wanted to do too with the LGBTQ roots. You know, because we're all out there sort of floating around and don't really have a lot of contact with each other. And it's really good to know that that people are out there. And there are people who will listen. So I think all around we should just have poetry parties constantly. Definitely. Yeah, I love, I love that you were organizing too. And just more of that. Let's just keep doing it so we can all go to poetry readings all the time. Especially in the winter when it's like, well, we all know that. But so would you mind reading us a few poems and yeah, I could do that. Great. I picked out a few. This one is just a couple weeks old. I wrote this in the Friday, the undercurrent workshop with Desiree. It's after a poem read by Maggie Smith. And it's called what lives there. My throat is full of blackberry bushes coughed up from the childhood trapped inside plural tissue. My heart is a collapsing house of cards balancing on your chest. My legs are hot snakes winding through the dead battery of my emotional junkyard. My pelvis is a warehouse union on strike. My family crawls in the spaces between my teeth. My melancholy baby sleeps in the butter dish. My fingers tap the temple of the Holy Ghost. My anger crawls across my tongue and swings from my uvula. My wanting never stops wanting, even in the year of dislocations, even in the moment the truth demanded we play by its rules, my wanting never stops wanting. Bravo. Good job. Thank you. And you have another you'd like to read? Sure. I was having trouble choosing this morning, but... I know you never know what spirit's going to move you, right? Right. How do we curate our writing? I don't know. I'm going to do this one. It's called Untitled Fairy Tale. The beans sprouted from their hands when I emerged from fluids and eggs, growing into a stalk I was clinging to until something better emerged from my scalp. And I let down my hair from a top window, but the sting of the feet digging into the split ends was too much. And so I grew taller with it while bees buzzed out rhythms and my hips shook my legs open. And what did I have to say for myself except that the one that said this one makes you small had never worked the way I wanted? So was it really my fault that the rabbit lived in such an old tree? And when the sky really did feel like it was falling, no one believed it because my wolf had already cried so much it drowned all the sympathy. But then the hunters only said they cut out my heart because they were hungry for a chest to pin the shame on. Hey, that's great. Thank you. That's great. I love... I was trying to catch all the references, I'm sure I missed a bunch, but that sounds like it was really fun to write, too. Yeah. Yeah. And I like the wolf, but you know anyway I'd have to see it more closely, but it's great. Thank you. Thank you. Is there anything you would like the audience to know before we leave? I don't know, do you? We have to tell people to remember to go to the reading. And what is that? Absolutely. The reading this month is on December 15th at the front. It's at 6 30. We generally go... I say it's till eight just to give us some wiggle room. Each reader reads for half an hour. So it's probably a little over an hour with like in between. The front is on Berry Street. Right. It's like on Berry in Maine, right? Like sort of on that one. Yeah, it's next to the laundromat. Yeah, near the tattoo shop. Yeah, it's kind of following that. And do you have anything else? Like are you reading anywhere soon or should people...? I'm going to be reading through the Poetry Society of Vermont. They are celebrating, or we, I guess, because I'm part of it, are celebrating the 75th anniversary. So they've been doing readings around the states. And the Montpelier one is on January 23rd. So it's, I guess it is getting closer because we are in December, aren't we? And it's at Kellogg Hubbard Street. And I think that's probably at six or seven. I can't remember the time, but there will be advertising around that. But keep your date book open for January 23rd at the library. All right. And then it'll be Poetry Month. Oh yeah, in April. So there'll be all sorts of stuff happening then. Well, thank you so much, Robin, for coming. It was great talking to you. And I'll see you next week or two weeks. Looking forward to you. Me too. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye. So the legislative session, it's about to start. Might they be doing something that might be of interest to Vermont's LGBTQ plus community members? Well, joining us tonight to talk about just those kinds of issues are Carl Andrews and Brett Hubbard, who have a very interesting proposal of what it is our legislature should be doing this session. So welcome to all things LGBTQ. Thank you for having us. So I want to start with the first time I met you. You told me that you were escapees from Pennsylvania. So could you talk with us a little bit about how you happened to come to Vermont? What it was in Pennsylvania that just didn't feel like home to you and what there was about Vermont that you thought I'm willing to give that a try? Sure. Well, I grew up in Pennsylvania. So we were living near where I grew up. And interestingly, it's not the same place I grew up. So the attachment didn't feel like it was there. But at the same time, after the 2020 election, moms for liberty showed up at the front door to question our vote, which freaked us out a little bit. January 6th happened and very quickly we realized how many Pennsylvanians who lived not that far away were involved in that. And interestingly, you drive down the Pennsylvania turnpike and the FBI had these big signs up on the billboards. If you know anyone, please turn them in. It felt really strange. It was also a place where in the town where we lived, everything seemed fine, but you didn't have to go too far. And it was like being in a totally different place. And when we waited in line to vote in person, we could easily realize that that could become a place where voter intimidation might happen. So start putting all this together and realizing that the legislature, surprisingly, just the house in Pennsylvania just flipped to Democratic control, surprised the heck out of me. Never would have expected that to happen. But Maastriana still got 44% of the vote in Pennsylvania. So put all that together. It just, the question we asked ourselves is, will the state have our back if things go to hell? Well, will our neighbors have our back if things go to hell? And I never felt that way in Pennsylvania. And I sure as heck feel that way here in Vermont. I've only been here a short period of time. So where were you originally from? I'm from Washington state originally. Okay, you're a little ways from home then. I came out to the East Coast, you know, just to see the world and go to school out here. And then as luck and fate would have it, I met this guy and ended up staying here and falling in love. Yeah, so here I am. And coincidentally, falling in love and getting married because we could finally imagine how those things can happen. Okay, so Vermont is not the only state that has tried to work in a very, as we say, you know, inclusive, equitable environment. What made you think Vermont out of all of your options? The New York Times article. Go ahead. Well, I'll tell you, there's a really interesting set of data that is available on the New York Times website. And you can get precinct level data of how people voted in 2016 and in 2020. I mean granular precinct level down to the brass tacks. And when we looked at Vermont, I mean, it was just crazy. It was a color that we really liked, you know, that looked good on us. And by very large margins, we had lived in precincts in Pennsylvania that were certainly light blue, but we're not trending in the right direction. And, you know, we've never lived in a place that was, I think, I think the precinct that we're moving to here in the next couple of weeks is one of the bluest precincts in all of Vermont. And that makes me very, very happy. I was going to say, you don't have to go to the New York Times website for Vermont. If you go on our secretary of state site, and you pull up the elections, you can get down to town by town, granular descriptions of how people voted. Reporting on, you know, this most recent election, they could tell you how the vote of the statewide went in each town, including the spoiled ballots and the blank ballots. Okay, but you arrived here at Vermont and, you know, I can see that you haven't even bothered to get on that yet, but that's okay. You immediately said, well, there's something that we think we'd like to do. It wasn't immediate. So, so we got here in April of 2022. And it really, it was after the Dobs decision came down. And that had been leaked previously. So it wasn't the Dobs decision itself. But it was Clarence Thomas' concurring opinion. And I couldn't help but read it. And it freaked me out. And I couldn't sleep. So at four o'clock in the morning, after having read Clarence Thomas' concurring opinion, I started writing emails to our state legislators in Chittenden County. And I think I sent them off at four in the morning, but I know they weren't checking their email at four in the morning. But you might be, you might be surprised. I, who knows, who knows? But some were really responsive, not, not quite that responsive. But, but what I suggested was I sort of laid it out and said, look, Clarence Thomas had said, these decisions are at risk. And why not? Or could we discuss the possibility of constitutional amendments or a constitutional amendment to address some of these things that are going to most likely change at the federal level when particularly Obergefell, if it's overturned. And that was our primary focus at that time was purely marriage equality. And so we, well, and if Lawrence v. Texas is overturned, it's also, you know, marital intimacy was, is that issue? So that really got us thinking about, well, what about us? Frankly, it was, it was pretty selfish. And I think it was because I got afraid at the time. Since then, I've gotten mad, but it started out, I was pretty afraid at the time when we suggested it. So we wrote to a number of legislators, met with a few of them. Initially, Jessica Brumstead and Keisha Ram, both from Shelburne, which is where we're moving to. And then Keisha introduced us to Tiff Blumley. So we started to meet people. And it went from, well, maybe not just marriage equality. Why don't we start thinking about something that is more inclusive? And so the conversation then led into a non-discrimination type amendment. And then we learned that Ginny Lyons had put in a proposal for a non-discrimination amendment back in, would that have been 2019, 2018, somewhere in there, which didn't proceed? So we then started thinking, okay, there might be something here. And then particularly Keisha and Tiff started pulling together a group of people and said, you need to talk to this person. You need to talk to this person. Let's get everybody together. And we got together at Tiff's house in September and had a whole great group of people there and talked about some of the options. And then at the same time, well, not at the same time, since then Nevada, which was the only state that had a marriage equality amendment in its constitution passed a non-discrimination amendment in its constitution. So we've got this great model, regardless of how we go. I want to back you up just a little bit, because I want people who are watching to really understand the evolution and the benefits of this. I mean, Vermont has, is always ranked in the top five for LGBTQ plus inclusion protections, et cetera. So we have some very strong statutes that say, we should be protected, we should be included. You can't just overlook us. If we have those type of statutory protections in place, why a constitutional amendment? What will that do either in addition to or more than our statutes? So when you look at, well, all we need to do first is look at prop five, which is now article 22 in the constitution. We already had state protection that covered many of the elements in reproductive liberty. Now we have it in our constitution. It's a right that the state says regardless, this is, you know, reproductive liberty is a right to all people in the state of Vermont. So currently, if we were to lose federal marriage protection, and that could happen if a Berger fell is overturned, if the respect for Marriage Act didn't pass, or if it gets over, or if it gets reversed, which is entirely possible, none of us expected dobs, frankly, way back when. The state would still have its legislative protections. But to put it into the constitution is first a statement that, hey, the state has our back and is committed to it. It is unlikely to be overturned. Legislatively, we only have to overturn something in one session. As long as we have House Senate and Governor approve it, a constitutional amendment takes a lot longer to change back. So if we think this is what we believe and what the state believes in, then let's go through that process. And then if we change our minds, it's going to take a lot longer than one legislative session to get rid of those protections. And it would take a statewide vote. And it would take a statewide vote. So it's more so than just a hostile administration. Exactly. Exactly. So it gives us protections for, well, just like Respect for Marriage does, not only for any marriage between two adults, regardless. And that includes not only sexual orientation, but also race. And we've talked to some folks here who are in interracial marriages who worry about that. And frankly, that's not something I ever thought about until I started talking to people in interracial marriages who said, yeah, I'm a little concerned. So those are protections that we think if a virgin fell were overturned, what would we do? Contraception is something that could be overturned, the right to contraception at the federal level, but that's covered in marriage equality. You know, so the marriage equality amendment did a lot to forestall the effects of jobs. What we're looking at is how do we do the rest? So when you say how to do the rest, are you looking beyond just sexual orientation, gender identity? Because I remember that Virginia Line's Proposition 3 also included disability. So it looked as though Senator Lines had looked at what were the non-discrimination statutes, what were the protected classes that had been created and ensured that they were elevated to the constitutional level. Are you looking at that's a similar type of analysis and possible inclusion? I think so because really we have sort of two options right now. And one is to go either only for marriage equality, which would only focus on marriage and would cover any type of marriage between two adults. Or, and this I think might be a little more likely, is to do something that would put non-discrimination and equal protection into the Vermont Constitution. And the current list that we are working with is the Nevada List, which includes race, color, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, age, disability, ancestry, and national origin. So that's a starting point. And that sounds very similar to the language that Vermont has already been using. Have you have you found much difference? Okay, you said one thing that I want to ask you about gender identity or expression. Or expression is not what Vermont has traditionally used. What was seen as being the need to include it when Nevada was doing it? Or what do you see as being the need to include it here? So that's a really good question. And this is where where I think I could use a lot of help from the community to understand what the implications of that are, you know, not having, you know, having a male gender identity. I don't necessarily understand what's at stake if we don't protect gender expression along with gender identity. So this is where hearing from the community to understand what would be at stake if we didn't include it is really important because that's an area that I can't speak to, not having that experience. So that's where I need some help in order to be able to speak to everyone as to why it's important to include it. And again, and we started with Nevada, because it seems to be the most inclusive that is there. And when we start talking about individual protections, that's where we would need to work with the people to whom that matters who are impacted by that to help us understand exactly what's at stake. So moving along with that train of thought, what have you already done to reach out to the community, get community input, or what are you envisioning in as far as reaching out and ensuring that you're hearing all of the voices that we truly need to hear from? Meetings, lunches, breakfast, coffees, get-togethers, chats, texting. No, I mean, there's a lot of different ways, almost too many, it makes your head swim. But certainly my involvement in Out in the 802 and talking to some of the folks that belong to Out in the 802, and we've certainly started networking with Dana in outright Vermont and want to have more conversations there. And the Pride Center and folks involved, getting folks to the Pride Center involved, there's just, and you, I mean, there's just so many different resources and folks that we want to reach out to and hear from and have conversations with. And we're trying to reach out to the Rutland folks. We're trying to reach out to the folks in Rutland and throughout the state, frankly, to really tell them what we're thinking about doing, understand where the need is, hopefully drum up some support, but also be able to use this as an opportunity for people to get involved as well so that, for example, just with gender identity and gender expression, to have people represent themselves through this vehicle so that we're able to do it. I was reminded by Jessica the other day that if this were to be brought to the Senate, Bill, there would have to be hearings. And if there are hearings, we would need the people who are affected by this to speak. That would be the best way to go because I can't speak for anybody but myself as a gay man married to another man and what this means to me. So we would want people in every other area to be able to speak to the legislature, the Senate in particular, about what it would mean for them. So we need to frankly build allies and talk to people and understand and say we only represent one part of this bill or this amendment and we need to do it together. And I think some of that, oh just really quick, something that's really important that I'd like to throw in there is that it's not just Chittenden County. I mean it's including some folks. We've had some really fun times out in Barrie at the Rainbow Bridge Coalition out there and meeting and networking with folks out there. It's not a big state but sometimes it's a really big state but we're trying to get out there and meet folks and connect with folks that are not just in Chittenden County because it's important. This is a statewide activity. It's not just a Chittenden County activity. Okay, you were going in exactly the direction that I was about to ask you about which is, you know, anyone who is watching this or sort of hears this rumor, if they're part of an organization, if they're part of the social network, if they're a group of friends, they should reach out to you and say, please come talk to us. So, and I understand that you've also reached out to out in the open in Brattleboro to see, you know, what they might be interested in. So as people are watching this interview and thinking about it, they should also be thinking in terms of, well, what else should we be protecting? You know, and again, I understand those sleepless nights, you know, reading Clarence Thomas's, you know, supporting opinion and wondering where it's going to go when you were very nice and saying, you know, marital relations versus the sodomy loss. But there we go. So we will make sure that contact information is put up and we're going to be checking back in you periodically saying, okay, so what's happening? You know, how can people get involved? And if there are public meetings that are being scheduled, please let us know because we will make sure that people know about them. And with that, thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for deciding that you want to come to Vermont. And thank you for deciding you wanted to do more than just have a nice front. No. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember, resist.