 Okay, our next speaker is Thomas, he's a teacher at a school in Bavaria. That is very normal, I guess, but he podcasts as well. He does podcasts, and some of you may know the politics lists in which he talks about politics, all grants about the German education system, and of course there was quite a lot that you could write about regarding digitalization in schools. That applied to me as I was looking after eight great students. So next two things that didn't go too well, maybe there were a few positive things. And what you could take into school reality, which is always changing from this turbulent day, and that's what Thomas has thought a lot about, and that's what he's going to share with us. I'm looking forward to that, and a very warm virtual welcome to you, Thomas. The stream is yours. Thank you. Hi. Welcome. This is my digital classroom. That is new, but everyone has one now. This year, so, digital school, in advance of all this happening, which we will come to actually add some involvement in the topic already, and that's what we'll get to now. So January 2020, everyone was talking about digitalization in schools, which meant everyone would buy computers for schools and digitalize all kinds of processes, and you talk about digitality in educational science. So the idea that all these things that we have, and of course we have talked about them often at Congress, things that create a digital reality, which politics has often accompanied with funds, you know, from the 80s and 90s and early 2000s. No program called Schuylen ans Netz, so schools into the network, or to the network. And now we have a didactical, pedagogical work, a world where the digital cannot be ignored anymore. I'm from Bavaria. In the federal state of Bavaria, we have a law that says that digital storage media are not allowed to be used in school, but at the same time, we are supposed to have lessons with Wi-Fi, routers, mobiles, and everything, so digitality is coming in, slowly but surely. And I do sometimes tell my students to take out their smartphones and do a poll for me. Let's stay in January and look at the foundations that we were talking about in didactics. Media education science has talked about technology. How do I teach people to use technology, media competency in the technical sense? And also the question was, what do I do with that? How do I use this technology, for example, the one that we use right now, or does that all mean? And then there is this debate about what the added value is, actually. If I have a smart board, is that really better than the classic white board? And while these kinds of debates are often portrayed as tedious or not, I think they're not really tedious, because the question of how to use digital media is also the question about which advantages I have, and a foundation that we might talk about at first is the model that I've shown, that I'm showing you in the slide, the SAMR model, substitution, augmentation, modification, and redefinition are the four letters. What you see here is the German variant, very nicely prepared. You have the English letters at the top and the German terms at the bottom, very confusing. Digital devices, talking about digital devices, the first thing I can use is substitution. So something I have already done in an analog way, I now do digitally. I'm taking away, putting away my overhead projectors and use a digital camera instead. Nothing changes in the way the lesson goes. Although, well, that is actually not quite true, because that could be regarded as augmentation. It's using a projector and projecting a picture onto the wall with that. That gives me better quality than using the old overhead predictor, and augmentation would be expanding the thing. That is what the digital camera would be, because I now can take documents and work with them with my students. I can put something under the camera. Normally people would have to write on transparent profiles, and as soon as the special pen was finished, everything would be over, and I can use any paper. Of course, with smart balls, I can use animations on my board, which is fantastic. Exciting if you want to do this. So that's augmentation. So an expansion of the didactic tools that I have regarding modification, actually changing the didactic world. That's level three, as it were. No, it's what I find really exciting. And an example here, there is presentation software these days, with which you can have asked the students to put polls, which is also previously protected. So as a teacher in social science, I can run a poll about any issue, and I will get an anonymized survey result. So the students will know, OK, this is how I can reply without any consequences. And at the same time, I can find out what the other people think of the other students about an issue. So that's something that wasn't possible before. You used to have a scale of opinions where you would ask people to stand according to their belief. And of course, you have the terms of social stigma and social desirability. You would have few people putting themselves in a faraway corner. So this is a clear modification. And then redefinition. That is interesting because technically that is not possible. I cannot, using technology, redefine something because no software actually exists that isn't based on an idea from classical teaching. So first I have to imagine something different and then build it. I cannot use things that have been built already and do things that I haven't been able to imagine yet. So there is a fundamental problem here. So this is for tactics for dealing with digital media. There is a lot of optimism in the debate. But the big new invention often leads up to people simply recording something on their smartphone and that's it. And I've talked about this when I was talking about modification. But the really big leap isn't there. We are not revolutionizing but evolutionizing. The big issue of course has always been data protection. So much so that many education scientists said they were not going to think about this anymore. But we as teachers have huge problems. I had to hand out about three to four privacy statements to students for them to sign so that they could use what we are going to use. GDPR is a good thing. There is no need to discuss it. Particularly not at Congress. The problem is that many things do not minimize data. There are many ways to abuse students' private data and information about problems with reading or orthography, end up on databases that are often not secured. And then there were offensives, programs, initiatives from various institutions. So I filled in a form from an initiative by the Bavarian Education Ministry. And many people they tried to introduce to the use of digital media. My school started a sequence of training about various tools that could be used there. And all that is in the augmentation area really. So that was the foundation in January. We were on the way trotting along and approaching all this didactically. Now administration did discover digitalization. And suddenly we had many tools for administration. Schools are cloud-based in the sense of PHP, MySQL somewhere. Now currently suddenly we have messengers that are previously conforming to digital timetables. But the problem is it's not all on a single platform. Various state projects exist. We will have a look at some overall of these. Every federal state in Germany has its own learning platform. There are neighbors used in the very area. Many states have some Moodle. The northern state of Schleswig-Holstein. They click themselves a platform somewhere and then called SH is learning and we were all laughing. All these things exist. And the whole thing is very disparate. And contrary to what you would expect, there is not a single official project, not even a federal state. That would encompass everything in the very area. I know that there's been work for a long time to do something like that, but they still haven't finished it. And we hope for big things there. But it's also in the hands of the schools, which they are for all in the hands of the communal school administration. And of course it depends on the budget of the school or the commune. Regarding digitalization, we are now at a place where there are so many tools all flying around. And every school is trying to pick something out of that whole cloud of business and is doing its best. And you find that no solution is optimal because, as you know from software, there never is the optimal solution. So that's how digitalization works. Up to the point where some real data loss occurs and of course that also is just a question of time. Right. We have to talk about the digital pact of school. Okay, the digital pact has 23 millions of the five billion have been used until June and they've been paid out. And what's the reason for this? The easy answer is all the federal states had to make clear who will get what and there's a problem with the constitution. And in my school I had to make a media curriculum to write down what we are doing already with digital media so that now we get good equipment and for my school we really got some equipment. And starting in November in the digital pact with the last extension there is now the idea has been enshrined that you get money for administrators and of course we asked ourselves why it took so long that they got the idea because, well, the problem with the software and the hardware is not buying it but the problem is administration and the old project where putting schools on the network that hardware was bought and software and nobody was there to set it up or administrate it but normally just one teacher gets a few hours per week. There's this like paid overtime, paid additional time for working that. It's better to let administrate it by someone who really knows about it and the teacher usually can't really do that. Teachers are experts for English or politics and certainly not for administrating networks or something like that. And March, of course, there was beer and so 15th of March I can still remember in our school all the projectors were running saying there's no class today and the schools were closed. There's the main news TV show and the schools were closed and we thought for how long? It turned out it was six weeks and then we switched over to digital. And on the 16th of March, maybe it was down, that's the Bavarian school remote school platform and it says here there was an automated attack automatic calling up of pages and I don't think it was automated. I think it was manual because it was a school system which means Monday morning at 8 o'clock lots of schools told their students dear children, now there is a digital distance learning please call up this website and they did that and I think it was really... it was still a denial of service but it wasn't automated and a new service were bought quickly and it really says a lot about this learning platform and that it fell down means that it wasn't used a lot before that and we're talking about that a bit later. So the first six weeks March until the end of April, mid-May something like that and the German school system we have lots of learned about the reality of digital distance learning and schools have the problem that suddenly the communication the means of communication were confusing or were non-existent suddenly you had e-mails or you had messengers of telephone chains and things like that and of course many colleagues just didn't have any concept for that including me and there was a thing lots of teachers really had to create new material very quickly and materials that were originally adapted for face-to-face classes and now students had to do that by themselves at home and it's not easy the competencies were not there with the teachers and that's including myself there was a very steep learning curve we had to look at it competencies at the students were also missing and the administration too were lacking the competencies and the parents as well who also had to and of course everybody was on Zoom suddenly and no longer but in Bavaria we could only do that if it was an official disaster where then you can neglect privacy but after that it was a problem again Zoom of course was the reality in a lot of schools and that sums it up for the parents they had a communication overload because the system thought well you have six classes of 45 minutes every day and you get a task for that and pedagogically that's far too much and my experience was that to distribute one task over four hours I have grown up students and of course they need a lot more time to absorb the information and of course have a problem sometimes they don't have internet but they have Zoom and they don't have webcams and a colleague told me that she had a Technics class a Technology class, those were the nerds and they didn't have webcams because their gaming PC doesn't have a webcam and the parents were the substitute teachers and suddenly the didactical and pedagogical competencies of the parents were needed and they are very disparate and you really have to say some can do it and some can do it less and it's very demanding at home the room, the space is important to make children understand that they have to learn and parents were overwhelmed and on the one hand the teachers can say okay now they see why we are here and on the other hand of course parents shouldn't be subjected to these situations and you have to find a way to connect the teachers to the students and of course that didn't really happen and everybody was having problems and we learned that schools and parents were overwhelmed and schools are important for education and also for caring for the children and people loved that but I didn't find that very funny and we are talking about presence, classes or distance learning and this is really important her teachers say I am not I don't have to care for the children but we are not like parents but we don't give them something to play but we give them maths tasks but they are in a room with one person minding them which aren't their parents but of course it's similar to that but maybe come back to that later but please if you look at school and looking at minding the children and educating the children are different things and it can't really separate it entirely and digital learning deepens social disparities social differences if you don't have academics if you have academics at home as parents it's quite different it's different your parents have system relevant jobs and aren't at home but I found a magical document here if you want to contact if you want to contact your students use any messenger you like but please if you use a messenger use signal because that's encrypted so I was asked how many classes I would have to do during the pandemic and how much I could prepare that meant that my students really took their social sciences lessons via the podcast for example and that was possible suddenly and what was also impossible some schools started using paper again because that was also flattening the differences the social differences and the education differences because if I make a telephone chain one parent for one class picks up a stack of paper and distributes it and especially if I don't have any digital means and students don't have access to digital means then paper can be a good solution it looks funny maybe especially if I talk about it about digital school but you have to be pragmatic and what do we want do we want equal education or do we really digital first and the digital has to be there on both ends and that's a problem of equality and so the new school year is coming on and the captain here is completely right the presence learning is there shields up full reverse all these liberties all these freedoms were turned back and now we're doing presence classes again and now we have these three variants presence learning is important well it's important it's the standard model it's what we have all learned so of course that's what people imagine when they think of school that's a weak argument but it makes the social differences more equal and because it's separated from the parents it levels the social differences yes and now we have a three three layered school system where there are differences so if we had an integrated school that would be a much stronger argument but we have a better social control and we can control them better we can control the parents better in the sense that we can maybe see abuse that happens in the family and of course we can control the colleagues better if they really really do their work otherwise we're just sitting at our computers and get bored and so that's a hierarchical system and the constant classes are great they've always been there and Mr. Söder the Interior Minister Prime Minister Bavaria said that as well and I'm also old school in a way because in some ways it is quite efficient not exactly effective but it can be efficient and it is sometimes you have project work and it is quite rigid and we have 45 minutes classes and it changes all the time there's very little flexibility in the system and you could do something about that distance learning we have talked about distance learning parents are now given tasks and well we as a school should be looking after the children the parents go to work in the capitalist society so distance learning parents are not really in position really to take over these tasks and distance learning is often overloaded with content and there is a feeling of how quickly or slowly children learn if they do the work on their own so we have a situation for that both understood teachers and students it's very hard to estimate the danger that students are overloaded is high content has to be taken back that's something I personally had to get used to as well now close vision or caring from teachers is not possible that much video conference isn't very useful unless you have good eye contact maybe but that's limited and the interaction has its own value as well as there are many technical hurdles there is not just students that may not have powerful enough computers many peak teachers don't have them or are not very good in dealing with that technology they may have previously and as well and other simulations and of course it's very hard to log the effort with the administration if I take time to prepare extra time can I log that can I record that as work time can I say this was distance learning we may have been in a video conference but I then gave them a task to work on and that's what they did what they spent in the class is that no time at home that you can record as work time and someone might get nervous about it but now the solution for that has been called hybrid teaching and the idea is that half of the students are in the room and the other half are connected I have given you an example calculation here let's picture a school with 1000 students that's about 45 classes and a video call Microsoft's big blue button is about 500 kilobits per second up to 1 megabit per second at least that's what I found so I need about 50 megabits per second megabits per second upstream and it has to be reliable to get such a school connected that is ambitious not every school has that and putting a computer and a connection and a microphone as such in every classroom is another issue so the technical side is difficult already but that's not the main counter argument because the problem is that didactically this is a catastrophe speaking from practice, practical experience that's what I do imagine in front of you you have students next to you you have a computer and if you're lucky it records students just in the way you see me right now and you have to focus on both these and you have just one microphone because we have cameras in the classroom you have to interact I saw on Twitter that someone thought well we have this one person who was a continual risk patient I don't know what that was in the so that student was staying at home in quarantine and had this large plush animal to waive with so that can be the reality of hard lessons worksheets I hand out if I hand it out digitally I have to ask myself why do I actually connect the people I can't hand out the work if I can't hand out the digital work why do I have even students sitting in front of me that's another question the interaction between those in the room and those in the connection isn't really there it all uses the teacher as a pivot and so you have a didactically step back really from fairly open methods I'm very much focused on the teacher just as you get in video conferences of course so that is terrible it's very hard to keep attention and running a lesson like that compared to presence teaching but also compared to a fully digital distance teaching isn't really good at all doesn't give you much progress and there's very little that you can do I teach the upper years we do complex things in our lessons and that's what we want to do we want the people to gain in competency work together well we have a pandemic we can't really work in groups but you could have a breakout room the digital adaptation of the classroom to what we are used to just by having an MS teams or whatever connection that from the point of view of the school system in terms of the didactic methods it is a terrible experience for the students and it's an indicator that we are trying to push things into a system that is currently not is currently breaking we have to get more flexible due to the pandemic and we have to have people appear, students separated but still well and after so we can't have one half for half of the time we have to restructure everything completely rethink school completely and think about digital distance learning and we have to ask what is actually our objective because many things are possible digitally so digital school fails from lack of imagination so we cannot do hybrid lessons so much but we cannot do distance teaching in 45 minutes intervals I can't quite get my head around this I ask myself what drive me and my students to sit at these computers at 8 every morning why? where is the sense? where is the added value? I kept asking myself I have a learning platform every school has one there is the Bavarian one and the second one for teachers it is a very lecturous thing I can put tasks in the I have received my solutions I can see who is looked at well, if you are a control freak you can see who is working on that precisely why should people want to do a video conference all the time? I have no idea I don't have to be there the heads of the school don't have to be there the students don't have to be there simply because that cannot look beyond timetables so this is something I can break up and we could introduce time sourcing this is something you know there are people that cannot work well early in the morning nerd people are enthusiastic now people that are able to start coding from 10pm we could finally cater for them I myself am a morning person so I am not the guy to do that but not everyone can be present at 8pm and be present and we know that some people actually drop off by 9am so let's leave that to the students themselves we can have a flipped classroom flipped classrooms that is when students work into the subjects themselves and do the tasks and they review with the teachers that is what I do in my social sciences I elaborate the issue as podcasts have it somewhere outside and I can tell I can send people to youtube and that has the advantage that I as a teacher can self reflect on and realize what I can explain not so well what the topics are that make me feel a bit uncomfortable and everyone has those so I can send these people to a good youtube video done by someone else digital school also allows a closer caring relationship because I can have one on one conference so I can take that time I can destruct my day flexibly but that is a contradiction to all those timetable and control logics that are ingrained in schooling because you have to prove somehow that you've spent this and that amount of time to educate children a number of English lessons for example have to be recorded otherwise you have no real proof of education we haven't talked about proving your results and there is no way to have tests or anything that does not use paper because everything else could be faked and the tasks that I would set if people had the internet available students with a school kind of education are prepared to solve the kind of tasks that we give them and with all the complexity of the internet you would have to set tasks that they could not solve but digital school on its own isn't a solution either I have colleagues from the math section for example let's say I have it no gain from that because you have to have someone pointing them to look at certain things again I was doing supply teaching private tutoring in maths for the years where I can do it and yes the important thing is to have someone stand there and say come on this is not the correct result you have a minus sign that's missing there and point people to something so this needs personal a personal relation a personal situation and learning platforms won't help you much there either highly complex works could be made but not everyone can do that so the independence is actually a higher burden as well with a school experience so the school routine it's very difficult to work on your own with your own timing because you don't learn that in the first year you enter school and you are top all the time you are just learning that is not controlled by yourself you have the teacher then there are concepts they are more dependent that works better and if you are used to that it works better the students I am used to have a very different routine and they think what the teacher says is correct that I can rely on and there are people that in their upbringing fail in both ways or they may not do enough and to get a feel for that what can I manage how do I have to structure my time we have no answers for that at the moment and it has never been part of the school system showing people that social interaction is important for this kind of socialization so for children in elementary school years but also the first years afterwards it's very important for them to have social interaction being a teen jager is social interaction in the peer group and that of course isn't happening either these days so we need to create rooms where despite a digital school this kind of interaction can take place and we still have the task of looking after the parents because it's about the economy but this care work is more different institutions here teachers social workers peer groups in a safe space that is important so we cannot simply switch to fully digital because it's good and flexible but in the digital space we can take on the flexibility of learning if the students have had some education on that which often they haven't had so everything is kind of two sided what we can take away is that hybrid lessons are quite useless if I am supposed to do hybrid teaching I have to go to that teacher and ask them okay, what do you want to do what does your lesson look like in teaching these are the options you have and then give them the flexibility to say these colleagues can't say in my subject I need high social interaction but I have the we have the pandemics, I only divided groups every day personally presents teaching with distance rules and everything and at the same time someone like me can be taught well you are teaching subjects such as English or social sciences where people can learn independently or maybe they need personal interaction for a while so we can tell these people will take these lesson hours away from you you don't need as many as of those we meet in a video chat in English for example in the evenings and for a meeting for a review but these flexibilities are not there either we have timetables not presence is important and all that and that is the big dilemma and that brings us to the 13th of December 2020 and presence learning collides with reality we went into the Christmas holidays and I haven't heard anyone say that it starts back up on the 10th of January but I have a citation a quote from someone who thinks that it will happen but the technical means have been improved but only partially but everybody else needed headsets and so on and so forth and the rules have only been adopted slightly and partially so how to find the grades how to come up with grades and so on and qualification and it's a part of school and it's still important and we didn't care about that and we thought we always do some presence learning and if they go into quarantine then we do hybrid classes or distance classes and nobody thought about that there would be another complete lockdown now there are studies that schools are actually more dangerous than we thought so far because that's a big problem for the economy because of the supervision of the students so we really wasted the time but school systems are in a federal country the system changes slowly how it is, it is very slow but what do we do now not only flexibility in the school system if everything has already broken then it works it's a bit sad really I had hoped for more and we have this we haven't extended our advantage for digital and organizational instead now we have contracts with Microsoft and Italy went along and bought Google Classroom in Germany and there were complaints about the GDPR and I looked at Google Classroom that's really great stuff but you sell your data to Google so that's not possible in Germany and according to the GDPR that's not possible and maybe that's not a bad thing but in the end the internal know-how isn't there and it's not really wanted either and we are really going along with Captain Lorca to go back to present classes again and the only place where we really used digitalization very well is the idea that you can better control the teachers and the students that was accepted very quickly at the administration platforms are really good when I enter the grades and if I really did my classes and give me more tasks to do and expect more from me and the students and there will always be messages and so on and that is digitalization in the administration and what hasn't been made more flexible are timetables and classes and grades and evidence for grades and so on and what has been made flexible is my work time because people expect me even on a Sunday to work to reply to an email at 10 p.m. on Sundays and react to that that can't really be the sense of that I don't want to complain we get good wages and so on but even companies say that you don't have to reply to emails after your work hours so the means are there now a quick message and so on and so for students it's perhaps even worse I have mostly adult students and it's really dangerous if not you really look for for discourse and the last thing is I heard lots of projects where people from from nerd circles looked after hardware and software and we can be so glad that these nerds are there that they helped and that chaos works like that and chaos helps schools and so on but now since you are in front of your machines now I hope there's an applause now for this creative chaos and for the nerds that helped and this is my last slide the 28th of December this year this is the Minister for Education of Baden-Württemberg and she said that present classes cannot be replaced with anything and I'll have a counter suggestion and present classes can be replaced by digitalized classes where parts can be in present it's useful for that and it should really be reduced to nothing but there are some things supervision has to be maintained and economic pressures are much more important even than educational pressures but more flexible and more digitalized classes and new tasks and students learning to learn by themselves that would be a lot better and that would be the school that trains students to have competencies to develop competencies and that politicians always wanted that as a goal for the schools and these are goals that we can reach in this way but and those things can replace large parts of present classes and now my 45 minutes school lesson is over I thank you for your attention and ok ok ok, yeah thank you Thomas for these wonderful insights and thank you very much the discussion has been lively and there is one question that you may or may not want to answer which school do you teach at this is a occasional training upper school so that we are kind of the roof schnauzer to use the German term the other question was which software is actually used for distance learning can you name some products well firstly we have a nice pointer because I have a podcast called Lernfraden for any questions in English and we have Maha's lead culture podcast where I talk with Maha a very well known German speaker and these schools in Germany use a lot of Moodles this open learning platform Bavaria uses Mepis which is a Moodle clone and my school form use its learning front a professional solution a commercial solution and there are various things there I think the weapon of choice still is Moodle because it's free and can be adapted open so that's what I know but as far as tools are concerned we need all these podcasts intro and obviously where you can listen in and get the details from my school I have known its learning as well there seem to be various things in use the question that is mainly about privacy and data protection do you believe that GDPR is an obstacle to distance learning? no, why should it be? why? ok we have often we have MS teams don't we? some people are using zoom but we've been running 4 days of RC3 using JetSea servers and big blue button these things do not record anything nothing remains if I host that on a server that is controlled by the school where is the problem? if the Moodle runs on a server controlled by the school it will not be an issue the privacy issue I see mainly if people use commercial solutions but then you have something like its learning with which you can have a contractual relationship and you can decide what you put in there as a user I know myself that you can decide you have a name and an avatar and its completely ok if I if I am not going to solve put solutions to tasks in there that is much safer than having the solutions sent to me via email but out there we have these MS teams so everything on clouds and there is a lot of school administrative software that runs on clouds because schools have been thinking I could just enter my grades back home and that's where things get nasty because they have this software that has grades and maybe remarks about learning difficulties and other issues so these percentages of how many people have a problem because you have to dyslexia and things you have to use that information in grading and that is information that is sensitive and you have the chain mail functions that you may use with complete data sets we've seen that so that is a very different world and distance learning is all very well possible and the issues privacy can be preserved to the learning platform this commission is learning stuff there is no issue there people get their credentials from the schools you don't even need to have an email address but you did say though particularly in homeschooling you have various worlds crashing there and various actors they have to arrange things between them and there are and another question was about new rules did you know that new routines new rules are established how do you motivate students that have been spending so much time on youtube I'm quoting here how do you activate your students while the classical response is as a teacher you can always have intrinsic motivation through grades of course I have people that want to receive their examination their graduation so there is a motivation I am not working at a school where schooling is obligatory because these people are in professional education but if young people like to consume youtube well there are learning videos on new rules right? so a concept there right? some physical exercises in between so what I really find difficult I have to see how to put this to make it come out right the mode in which we are right now three quarters of 90 minutes of sitting in front of a computer I think that this video conferencing thing gets people to become couch potatoes and gets people into a consumer attitude I have found that as a teacher I talk and talk and talk so this is hyperfrontal and everyone else has the microphones off and maybe even muted me so they won't get on their nerves so being there is the actual requirement and that is being checked and to motivate people you have to give them a task beforehand and then give them an occasion to talk and then have that conversation as long as it's needed but that gets us to the flexibility issue again because you have to communicate that a video conference that is just 15 minutes long ultimately may achieve more than the 45 minute presence learning because the actual work was done beforehand when you were not present and yeah there is a question to the chat that's quite fitting yeah have you maybe seen literature that you would recommend about didactical models to connect to this perhaps I was afraid of that question I don't really know there is a lot what I can recommend is to search twitter using the hashtag twlz which is German for twitter classroom twitter lehrerzimmer I am quite a self person here through my nerd way I am in a mode that seems very natural to me so I haven't really dealt with much of that and of course everyone is learning from everyone but the hashtag is the good recommendation is for the German speakers because there is a lot of recent stuff here speaking of practical tips a question about parents want to understand what works in a classroom and what doesn't work so when it comes about having teachers that can be reached I would ask for everyone to have an email address I would at least ask for an email address and so parents meeting with a video conference should also be possible and if you go to school with a camera and do it in the office instead of at home that's okay and you can also ask that of the students but there are really legal requirements at least in Bavaria and I really have to within a certain number of hours in class to offer contentful classes and it's very hard to measure but there should be some progress, there is some progression and if you see that every week for example I get two worksheets and they all look the same and I could also find them on a website then I have a problem but what has been established at our school learning platforms is to have weak plans to ask for weak plans from the teachers and then to say for example this week we want to have a plan for one week and they help the teachers and the students a lot because then it's clear that within a week at this point in time then I can use the time flexibly and I think that's maybe the best way it's a good to learn self-motivation and learn to work by yourself for later in life do you think when you want to educate them to more working for themselves do you think that's maybe a good idea to teach them during the pandemic? yes they have to learn that we have a problem with our school socialization and I was here especially during the lower classes even in mandatory schools and it's not just in Montessori schools but it becomes more free and for example for the first two or three hours you can make your own schedule and the condition is that you must do something but what you do and for what task and in which group and you can decide for yourself so these are good models but the problem is at the end of I'm sitting at the end of the school system in my kind of school I have 16, 70 and 18 year old students and in the end they will fail doing it because they have learned it and they have been taught it differently it's a question of socialization and if now in the primary schools and in the fifth, sixth, seventh class they learn that now and if they really do classes exactly like this but then in the secondary schools they break it again and they have that didactical breaks between the schools and I can see that and I see that our demands are like in grammar schools and it's not well received because people are not used to working by themselves and motivating themselves so another short question so new forms of classes, new forms of education do you know something that people can support no I don't really know there are lots of people out there working on the topic and I think lots of the things, most of things actually are good and I found everything out by myself and I'm not in a club or something like that and I don't know I don't really think of anything right now as I looked at edulabs maybe and they're doing open source and chaos for schools also does great things there's lots of things and thank you again for Thomas for lots of input for this really challenging school year thank you for being a part of the first remote chaos experience and keep up the good fight thank you, my pleasure