 Welcome to the Sports Playbook where we discuss solutions to issues that impact sports. I'm your host, Angela Hazlett. Today's guest is Elizabeth Abdonore, who is the founder and principal of Elizabeth Abdonore Law, PLLC in Lansing, Michigan. We are here to discuss Title IX Litigation and Advocacy, representing plaintiffs. Let's get to it. Elizabeth, I'm so glad to have you on the show today. Thank you so much, Angela. I appreciate you inviting me. Absolutely. I'm really excited to get to the heart of your practice. You're an attorney where you litigate and advocate for plaintiffs in Title IX cases. And Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex and applies to schools that receive federal financial assistance from the Department of Education. Athletics are considered an integral part of an institution's education program and are therefore covered by this law. For schools to be compliant with their athletic programs, they must accommodate students' athletic interests and abilities, provide equivalent athletic benefits and opportunities, and substantially proportionate financial assistance. Elizabeth, what else can you tell us about Title IX's application to athletics? Yeah, I mean, I think it is key for any educational institution that receives federal funding to be familiar with Title IX with respect to athletics. Of course, there are applications as well outside of athletics, but what schools want to be paying attention to is whether they are treating female students equitably when compared to male students. There are some pretty complex formulas that are used to figure that out. So, for example, there are a lot of situations where we look at schools and we might see a huge football or basketball program where we know a ton of resources are being poured into there. And there may not be something similar in terms of the spending on women, but there are a lot of other metrics that can be considered in terms of number of women that are involved in sports. Whether the women's and the men's teams have substantially similar facilities and, you know, whether they're providing them with equal perks, you know, so things like the athletic trainers, they might be getting the medical help, that kind of thing. So, it's long story short, it's something that in order to be compliant, you really want to have a compliance expert either full-time on your campus or at least somebody to consult with you because there are a lot of factors to consider. And I imagine every institution is slightly different. So, speaking of institutions, all public and private elementary and secondary schools, school districts, colleges and universities receiving any federal funds must comply with Title IX. This includes approximately 17,600 local school districts, over 5,000 post-secondary institutions, charter schools, for-profit schools and other institutions. Title IX is most known for expanding opportunities for women and girls in sport. Before the passage of this legislation, there were just over 300,000 women and girls combined playing college and high school sports in the United States. At that time, female athletes received 2% of college athletic budgets. Let me emphasize that again, only 2% of the athletic budgets and athletic scholarships for women were virtually non-existent. So, in the 50 years since Title IX's passing, girls' high school sports participation has increased tenfold and participation for women in college athletics has increased more than six times. So, girls and women now have opportunities like never before in athletics at their educational institutions. So, Elizabeth, why is your Title IX work important in today's landscape? Yeah, so unfortunately, equity is still not present necessarily everywhere in, you know, both, you know, colleges and universities and higher education as a whole, and particularly athletics. There have been a number of cases that have been in the public view recently that I think illustrate this. One of them I'm pretty familiar with a case involving the Michigan State University swim team. They recently entered into a settlement agreement with Michigan State. Essentially what had happened was that the entire swim team was eliminated because the university was arguing that this would, you know, do whatever. I think there was something about, like, they didn't have the facilities that they said they needed, but because they eliminated numerous female athletes who were on the swim team, the argument that the athletes made was that this was negatively impacting them and was a gender discrimination issue because it was cutting so many female athletes and, you know, removed the balance or the equity that was there in the MSU athletics program. I don't know the details of the settlement agreement. One thing I do know, though, is that it does not bring back the MSU swim team, sadly. So, but there is still a very, very active and vocal and well-resourced group of former athletes and alums who are still fighting to bring the MSU swim team back. But, you know, as universities and colleges struggle to try to comply with Title IX and to balance their financial budgets and things like that, I think there are still a lot of struggles that require us to continue to look at Title IX. Elizabeth, you are intimately familiar with Michigan State University and settlements surrounding Title IX issues. So, Title IX can include discrimination on the basis of sex that includes sexual harassment or sexual violence such as rape, sexual assault, sexual battery and sexual coercion. So, before starting your own law practice, you actually worked at Michigan State University as a Title IX investigator at the time of the Larry Nasser investigation. Larry Nasser was a former team physician at Michigan State University who is now serving a prison sentence for sexually assaulting over 300 gymnasts and other athletes under the guise of providing medical treatment. Michigan State, which was accused of missing chances over many years to stop Nasser, agreed to pay $500 million to more than 300 women and girls who were assaulted by him. So, what can you tell us about Michigan State handling of the Nasser case? Yeah, it was a very, very challenging time for the university. So, you know, the story initially broke through the Indie Star newspaper when one of the survivors came forward and told her story. And what happened was that just sort of caused a number almost like an avalanche of additional folks to come forward because he had been such a prolific predator. There were many, many women and girls and I believe some boys as well who had been abused by him. You know, from my perspective inside the university when it happened, it was very challenging. There was some messaging from the top that indicated that the university, you know, kind of wanted this to go as quietly as possible, which was not ever going to be what happened, right? And then additionally, one thing that the university also saw in addition to the many, many survivors of Larry Nasser that came forward was many, many other survivors who came forward of other abusers at Michigan State. Folks who had been abused recently, but also going back as far as 20 or 30 years and what I saw, because they, you know, they were seeing this news and this information about this abuser that had been at their institution. And they wanted to come forward to prevent any abuse by anybody else or to, you know, try to seek some sort of resolution for the abuse that they had suffered and watching these other folks come forward, gave them the courage and the sort of resolution that they wanted to come forward. So there was this huge cascade of just folks coming forward about not only Larry Nasser, but many abusers at the institution. I'm sure Michigan State wasn't ready for the scale of abuse that had been occurring. And at around the time of the public becoming aware of this case, you were dismissed from employment as a Title IX investigator from Michigan State University. You subsequently received a settlement in the amount of $175,000. What circumstances transpired that caused the series of events? Yeah, so I, you know, initially, there, you know, like I said, I had seen things happening that I thought were not right within the Title IX office and the university as a whole, both in terms of the Larry Nasser response and then just sort of more generally in terms of, you know, how they were doing the response and training on Title IX issues. And I had raised concerns internally, was very, very vocal. I'm a very outspoken person. And, you know, was either getting brushed aside or ignored, tried to go to different folks outside of my office. People seemed like interested in what I had to say, but nothing was really happening. And then I got wind that the US Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights was going to be on campus. So at that time MSU was under a resolution agreement with them, which caused them to have periodic visits to MSU to just sort of check on things happening. And what I had heard was that like they were going to be on campus. I can't remember if it was like the next few days or the following week. And so I like went around and told a whole bunch of people in my office like, how are the other coming? I'm going to tell them all this crap that's been happening and like we can get this stuff addressed. And the very next day I was called into my boss's office and told that I was being suspended and immediately walked out of the office like in the middle of the day in front of everybody. They would not tell me why they were suspending me. And I actually, I was like, wait, what? I hadn't even at that point made the connection. It didn't make sense to me because the thing is I've been raising, I've been very vocal about this stuff for like several months. So it, you know, I wasn't like, and it took them three weeks of me being at home on suspension for them to even tell me why they were investigating me, which by that point, the explanation was that I was being insubordinate and not following the things that my supervisor had told me which was true because they were ethically not things I could do. And they ended up, they ended up sending me a FedEx letter a couple months later saying that I was fired. So yeah, I hired an attorney who reached out to them. I am actually not allowed to disclose the amount of the settlement. So I'm assuming you found it some other way. Freedom of Information Act information making a formal request. Exactly. Yeah, I know it's out there if people want to find it. So yeah, so I negotiated a resolution with them and then used that money primarily to help start my own law firm, which I now run. And so how do you feel regarding that outcome that you experienced with Michigan State? I imagine it had to, you mentioned surprise and shock and confusion and now how do you feel looking back on that experience? Looking back now, I think it was like the best thing that probably could have happened to me. I'm not somebody who can stay and sit and be quiet and do what I'm told if something is wrong and just not. And there were many wrong things that continued to happen that I heard about even after I was gone. And it was not an environment that I would have been able to be successful in any way. So, you know, I would have needed to get out one way or another. And, you know, I think obviously it was painful at the time, but I think if I had stayed there longer, I think it could have potentially caused more damage to me just in terms of mental health and my ability to get up and keep moving, you know, afterwards. So I think looking back, I think it was the best thing that could have happened to me, honestly. And there was, there's perhaps a positive outcome in that the settlement money was used to fund your law practice, which now you specialize in Title IX litigation and advocacy. What else can you tell us about this law practice? Yeah, so I love it. My main focus is on trying to help people who are facing some type of discrimination, either at school or at work, sometimes both. So I do a lot of Title IX work. I represent folks in litigation. I also represent folks who are going through Title IX investigations and hearings at their institution. I handle a good amount of employment law related to folks who are being discriminated against or retaliated against for raising concerns at their job, which I learned how to do that from my own experience. So, you know, experience sometimes is the best teacher. So, you know, it's nice though, because I, you know, I can really connect with my clients who are going through that and tell them, look, I've been through it. I know where you are. It does not define you because sometimes it can feel like something like that does. And then I also do a good amount of work related to special education. So I represent parents and families in K-12 schools who have, you know, the students have disabilities and they're not getting the services they need. So that's the big picture. Yeah. So several different facets there. And so, you know, today, this today's episode we're focusing on that the total nine aspects. So talk to me a little bit about cases, Title IX cases that have affected athletics. You know, Larry Nasser was a huge one that you touched on. What other, what other cases have maybe you been involved in or have some knowledge about that you can share with us to give our viewers an understanding of the scope of Title IX issues in sports today. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there was another big one, unfortunately in Michigan, which involved Robert Anderson, who was also a team doctor at the University of Michigan. He was molesting primarily athletes at the University of Michigan back in the 1970s and early 80s. I actually do have one client who was a victim of his. There was an initial first set of complaints that were filed. And there was a settlement negotiated with the University for that group. And then there was a portion that was set aside for additional survivors that came forward. So my client is in that second group. And he's, you know, he, for him, it's a long process. You know, a lot of these survivors from that group are there 50s, 60s and 70s. Many of them, you know, dealing with this for the first time in terms of coming to terms with it. And they're almost all men. And so, you know, you've got that added stigma of being a male survivor of sexual assault. So, yeah, so that's it just, I mean, everything I know about those survivors, their lives were completely turned upside down by the abuse and in all kinds of different ways. You know, and then there's, there's been several other, you know, that we know about obviously collectively as a society Penn State Ohio State Baylor, again, you know, sort of mass abuse situations. A lot of them involving men. One case that I have that's going on right now that I think is really important is the case that I and a couple of colleagues have filed against Louisiana State University. We have 10 plaintiffs in that case and essentially the plaintiffs either had experienced and many of them reported sexual assault, sexual harassment, relationship violence to the universities, either to folks in the athletic department or to the universities title nine office. And then, you know, for the majority of them, either nothing was done at all, or, you know, there was some sort of an investigation but it either didn't result in a finding or didn't result in any, you know, any, any, any realistic change to their circumstances. And we've got several different survivors in that case who were abused by the same two athletes. And so, you know, there's this pattern within their athletics department of them repeatedly being made aware of abuse that was happening by some of their star football players and then nothing was done and the cost again to these women that they were silenced and they were forced to try to go on with their lives is just huge. We've got one who was on the path to be a very good professional tennis player. She had played against Venus Williams and she did lose but Venus had very good things to say about her after the match. I mean, she easily could have been a top 50 player she had the skills to do so and she her tennis career was completely derailed and she, you know, she'll never get back to that. So, you know, in that case what I think is interesting is looking at, and I don't think this was intentional but looking at the costs to the female athletes in order for the male athletes to succeed and the fact that that was just sort of accepted as a cost that the institution was willing to pay. I think that raises serious title nine questions. You mean cost that males are getting away with sexual assault. Yeah, exactly. And then diversity is sweeping that under the rug so that the teams might be successful. And in some cases with our plaintiffs, the female athletes then losing their ability to go forward and continue to play either professionally. We had another member of our plaintiff group who was planning to be a tennis coach. She lost her path. She has lost her love of tennis and she now works as a bartender. So, you know, in terms of the cost to women's tennis, we have some serious costs there. And the benefit was, you know, male football players and men's football and I guess maybe the NFL, although I don't think any of them were doing that great there of those that are there. The sweeping this under the rug and at what point do clients engage your services? It sounds like the experiences they don't get the support that they need from the university. And then it sounds like maybe they then they turn to you for services. Is that a typical time in which they engage your services? Yeah, there are a lot of folks come to me at that point when they, you know, it's really a lot of folks who experienced some sort of abuse that's connected with their educational institution. They've been trained and they believe that the institution is going to help them. And so they really do make an effort to go through the process of resolving it internally. And often it's not until that process has been completed and they then feel betrayed by their institution that they start thinking, OK, maybe I need to really get a lawyer to help me here. There are some folks who come to me earlier. So like I said, there are some folks I represent through their Title IX investigations. So that would be before the school or during the time that the school is involved in trying to resolve it. But the majority of folks come to me after that. You know, college students just really aren't thinking, oh, I'm going to need a lawyer. It's just not what they're they're normally expecting that their school will help them because that's what they've been told. Right, absolutely. In 2020, the Trump administration made rule changes to Title IX, making it even more difficult for survivors to lay claims and hold accused persons accountable. What can you tell us about the rule change and how this affects your work in Title IX cases? Yeah, so there were there were a lot of changes that were implemented through that 2020 rulemaking process. One of the primary changes that occurred was that schools, at least higher ed institutions, K-12 are not required to do this. But in higher ed, they are required to at least offer an opportunity for a face to face hearing, which I say face to face. It can happen remotely via Zoom. But an actual opportunity for the parties to directly cross-examine each other through an advisor or representative. Before that, you know, it was sort of a change in the way the Title IX process was viewed. Before that, there had sort of been this understanding that it was a civil rights investigative process. You know, along the lines of an HR investigation where you'd have an individual or a couple of folks who were assigned to do the investigation, gather all the information and make a decision about whether the internal policy had been violated. There was sort of a change to perceiving it as more of a confrontational slash litigation type process that required direct, you know, the opportunity for direct questioning of one another. And what resulted is that it caused a lot of more hesitance, I think, for folks to even engage in the process because many people, when they're reporting somebody else, they just want that person to leave them alone. And they want to be able to move past this as soon as possible. They don't want to get engaged in a months or even years long process that's going to culminate in a face to face questioning by someone representing their abuser. It's just not worth that to them. It's just going to be too much trauma. And so I think what's resulted is that it's caused, I've certainly interacted with potential clients and clients who have told me they chose not to take advantage of the school's internal process because of that. The process can be brutal depending on the skill level and training of the hearing officer. You know, I've seen situations where hearing officers have allowed what I think are really inappropriate lines and methods of questioning. You know, just not getting at whether there's a preponderance of the evidence that a policy was violated, but getting a lot more at things like people's, you know, promiscuity levels and things like that, which really should not be a matter of question. What they were wearing and who they were out with and what they were, if they were engaged in drinking alcohol at the time, decisions like that, that shouldn't really affect the outcome. Right, right. And, you know, there is language about that in the guidance, but I think it's a matter of training and experience. And it's, you know, these schools are, they have a hard time finding qualified folks. You know, I actually also serve as a hearing officer myself for a couple of institutions and it's a ton of work. And so, you know, finding qualified folks that have the time to, you know, you have to read sometimes hundreds of pages of materials. The longest I've had a hearing take is I had a hearing take 10 hours once. And then you've, yeah, and then you've got to go through all this material and make a decision and then there's going to be an appeal process. It's a mountain of work and so finding people that are qualified to do it that, like, you know, don't have other options of things they could do that's less painful. It's very hard for schools. Absolutely. That does sound really challenging. What are some other challenges in litigating and advocating for survivors in Title IX cases? I think one thing is managing expectations. So, you know, it's a trauma to go through litigation is trauma. You know, the schools and defendants are going to do things like try to get every text message you've ever said they may want to do a medical or psychological exam of you. They're certainly going to want your medical and psychological records. And that's extremely intrusive. Depositions are very difficult. Then you are being grilled under oath by somebody representing a person or an entity that you feel abused you and they can ask you anything. And so, helping them understand what that process is going to be like and also managing expectations for results. You know, often I have folks tell me, I mean, the most common thing I think people tell me that they want out of it is they want certain people fired, right? I can't get anybody fired. I don't have that ability. No court has that ability. So, if you had a horrible experience with an awful Title IX investigator, we might be able to get you some money, but I'm not going to be able to get that person fired and I'm not going to be able to prevent that person from causing harm in the future. You know, if the school chooses to take that route, that's up to them. I've never seen it happen. I think mainly because the schools would see that as an admission of liability, essentially. So, you know, that's really, I think the hardest part is helping people understand what the process is going to be like and be realistic about what the possible outcomes are. But they have potential opportunities to go through the legal process outside of the university's Title IX process as well, right? So, the outcome could potentially be different. Maybe not forcing someone to get fired, but they could be held accountable through that process. Are they more likely to be successful in going through the Title IX process at a university level versus taking it through the legal system? I think it's difficult to succeed in both venues. And then, you know, another option that you would have potentially would be to file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights. I've seen some good results there, particularly if the case is routed to their mediation process that they have. But again, you know, they're extremely overburdened and understaffed and filing a complaint there can take years before it gets resolved. So, in terms of fastest results, sadly likely the school, even though sometimes those take a year or more, but yeah, it's a tough road no matter what you choose to go. You know, whoever has the accusations made against them, whether it's the individual or the school is going to be fighting very hard not to be found responsible for any violations. Absolutely. Let's talk just briefly about how this affects athletes of different sexual orientation, gender identity, transgender students. I know the Biden administration was talking about kind of expanding the scope and talking about prohibiting discrimination for students that may be based on their sexual orientation and gender identity. So talk to me about Title IX and athletes that may fall under this umbrella. Yeah, so the Biden administration actually issued guidance through the Department of Education. I think it was, it was the summer of 2021. I think it was June. And they explicitly said that any discrimination based on gender identity or sexual orientation is considered sex discrimination under Title IX. Students who are trans or students who are, you know, expressing gender identity that might be different from their assigned gender at birth, or students who have sexual orientations of whatever variety. Everybody should be protected from any type of discrimination regardless. There have been some cases decided recently, there was a really interesting one. There was just the decision at the end of 2022, I think. And I think it was in the second Circuit Court of Appeals, but it was related to a high school athlete in Connecticut who was being prohibited from joining a team at their school because they were transgender. And the court, the court affirmed that that's in fact inappropriate and that, you know, that was discrimination under Title IX. So I think, you know, it's this issue is slowly coming to the courts. And, you know, so far, I think the courts, at least what I've seen are doing what has been directed of them by the Department of Education, but I do think it's still something that as we see these cases move through the courts may have different results. So one final question, what happens when a school doesn't comply with Title IX? What are the consequences? And I mean, there's a lot of harm here, right? And there's, you talked about the sophisticated analysis to determine if an institution is being compliant with Title IX as far as providing opportunities for men and for women. So what are the consequences to these institutions? And then with that, what do you advocate should change and be done differently? Yeah, I mean, the potential, the main potential consequence you have is you are not giving the same opportunities to everybody on your campus. And so I think if we move beyond thinking about gender, if we just think about, you know, if you were an institution of higher learning, your goal should be, one of your primary goals should be to give your students all possible opportunities to develop and grow in whatever ways they possibly can while they're spending their four years or whatever at your institution. I think institutions have to ask themselves, are you really doing what you're supposed to be doing if not everybody who sets foot on your campus has access to those same opportunities? If I can't, you know, flourish in all of the different areas of potential that I have, or at least if I don't have an opportunity to try, then what benefit am I getting from you as an institution? Why wouldn't another institution have been better for me? Or maybe not even going to college or university at all, you know? As it relates to athletics, if you could just summarize, what do you think is, what are the consequences to an institution and what opportunities we have to improve the process? Yeah. Well, I think athletics are important for a lot of students for a lot of reasons. You know, helping students learn how to be a member of a team, be punctual, work hard, and have goals that they're setting and that they have to work to achieve rather than something that might just come easily. And I think, you know, a very few students end up making a professional career of athletics, right? It's just not the avenue for most folks, but I think a lot of people learn things like how to be successful in a professional environment, you know, how to do things that are going to be expected of you as an adult from athletics. And if those opportunities are not afforded to students, I think they're missing out on a significant component of their education. Well, thank you, Elizabeth, for your time. We appreciate your insight and wealth of experience. And I appreciate all you do for victims who need some representation and advocacy. So thank you for being here. Thank you so much, Angela. So thank you to our viewers for joining us on the sports playbook. In two weeks, our guest is Dr. Victoria Silverwood, who will discuss violence in the sport of hockey. We will see you then. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. 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