 Hello and welcome to My Career in Data, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host, Shannon Keb, and today we're talking to Matias Bacuturin from Vantage Consulting. More and more companies are considering investing in data literacy education, but still have questions about its value, purpose, and how to get the ball rolling. Introducing the newest monthly webinar series from DataVercity, Elevating Enterprise Data Literacy, where we discuss the landscape of data literacy and answer your burning questions. Learn more about this new series and register for free at DataVercity.net. Hello and welcome, my name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at DataVercity and this is My Career in Data, a DataVercity talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to talk with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to DataVercity.net forward slash subscribe. Today we are joined by Matias Bacuturin, the President and Principal at DataVantage Consulting and normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about. Matias, hello and welcome. Hello Shannon, thank you for having me, it's an honor. I'm so glad that you're here. We got to hang out at our last conference and it was just so much fun. So I'm so excited to hear more about your bio and how you got into consulting. So let's start there. So okay, so you're the President and Principal at DataVantage Consulting. So tell me what type of business is DataVantage Consulting? Yeah, so yeah, DataVantage Consulting is a company that offers basically consulting, advisory and educational services focused on data governance. That's a data governance with specialization as well in change management because I think it goes hand in hand and data quality as well because that's to me one of the most obvious pain points. So that's what we do. So we help basically big corporates to mid-sized companies in various industries, create, set up, implement data governance programs. And I've started this firm about three years ago back in 2021, initially it went under my own personal name, but I changed the naming to be a bit more recognizable to DataVantage Consulting. And I think what sets us apart is we categorize our services in basically three categories. So inspire, guide, and empower. So with inspire, like it says, we try to inspire companies and make them aware about what is data governance, what can it mean to me. So that are workshops, seminars, board information, awareness sessions, things like that, speeches as well. Then the bulk of the work to consulting is the guiding part is where we really do the pragmatic, practical step-by-step guidance of these companies in setting up data governance programs. And that's a variety going from auditing and assessment studies around data governance to I'm talking a lot about strategy sprints, design sprints in data governance, or doing that as well, to full-blown data governance implementation. But it's all in the sphere of data governance. And then finally, you have the empower thing is that it's really enabling the companies to put the governance in practice, so doing a lot of training, coaching, focusing on that stewardship, that culture, and that kind of thing, and ongoing support as well. And that's what DataVantage Consulting basically is all about. Love it. And in the community, data governance is a very common thing, but how would you define data governance and how do you explain it to the companies and explain it why it's so important and why they need to invest in it? So I have one go-to definition. So data governance, to me, is basically another form of asset management. And so I'm involved also in lots of pre-sales conversations and basically, you know, making people aware of what it is. And I have this simple explanation where I say, look, you're a company, you're a business owner, you're a CEO, CDO, and yeah, your company has an objective. So you can be a sausage factory trying to produce sausages, or you can be a big bank insurance company trying to sell insurances or a hospital, you know, taking care of people. But you have an objective as a company and to complete an objective, you know, you have some assets that you need to put to work. Obviously, you have people working in your company, you have money that you, you know, budgets for sales teams, budgets for marketing teams. You have facilities and go on and go on. And of course, and you hear me come in, you also have data. And data is also an asset. And that's a bit the mindset that I try to get into people. Because if I take away the data from your company, then yeah, if I take away your customer data, then who are you going to sell your products to? So, you know, getting that awareness about, okay, our data is an asset. And perhaps we should treat it with the same rigor as we do with our money and with our people. And that's what data governance is about. It's setting up these guardrails, these policies, procedure, and now. And I, one comparison I often make is I compare it with human resource management because that's something that a lot of business people I talk to can relate to is HR and HR department, you know, they set out rules and guidelines. How managers and people in the business, you know, work with people, what guiding principles they should, you know, follow. You know, we don't discriminate and all these kind of things. And also there are policies on how to hire people, take performance reviews, all these kind of things. So that's, they set out the rules. And that's what I also try to do with data governance is, you know, we set out the rules, how you treat the data. And that's, that's how I see data governance and how I explains it. And it's, it amazes me that it's still a big mindset shift that needs to happen with a lot of business owners and business people or even IT people as well. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it really is a big need out there, which is why I ask, because we get asked by our community a lot and how do I, how do I, you know, explain to our executives that this is such an important thing. So, plus, okay, so we know where you are now, what you're doing this awesome thing. So, so let's kind of get into it. So tell me, was this the dream when you were, when you were very young, like say six years old, this is the dream. I'm going to be a data governance consultant. What was the dream? No, back when I was younger, I wanted actually to become a movie director. Yeah. So I was beginning to movie. So in back in, in high school, I switched to high school, which was focusing on, you know, art arts with specialization in photography and film. So I went to that high school once I graduated there. I started a course or, you know, a minor, how to say it, yeah, minor in movie directing at a famous art college here in Ghent in Belgium. And I started out and it was really fun. But then I also got other courses like philosophy and, you know, art history. And I was really more into that theoretical lecture part than practical movie directing, technical kind of things and lightning and all that kind of thing. And so it was a bit of a dream that was shared like, is this movie directing? And I was more into those philosophy courses. So I dropped out of the art college, went to the university, did an attempt to graduate at philosophy, but it didn't went very far. Took it like half a year and then switched to sociology. So which is a bit of an in between, which also has to do with a lot of data. So I got statistics and all these kind of things. But so I graduated with sociology as a bachelor's degree. And then at the point that I needed to go to my master's degree, I started to, you know, Google job opportunities for sociologists. And so that wasn't so, yeah, looking very bright. So it was either academics or, yeah, nothing else more than that. So I completed a master's degree in business economics because an economics degree opens more doors. And so I ended up doing debt. So, yeah, again, very far from the movie directing, but still not at the data part. And so, yeah, I graduated with a master's degree in business economics. Oh, well, that's, you know, that's not too untypical to, you know, as a self discovery, trying to figure out who we are, what we like, you know, as part of the university experience, I think. Yeah. But, okay, so tell me, so you graduated, you have your master's. So tell me about your jobs after that. So, so basically my life is like a sequence of following my passions and what I'm passionate about. So it went from movie directing to philosophy, sociology, economics. But then, so I still needed to write my thesis at the last year. So I had a bit of spare time and lots of my friends were already graduated. So took me a bit longer. And so they were already working. And so I thought, perhaps I can combine writing my thesis and working. So I started to look for a job. And so one of the obvious, you know, jobs you can get with an economics degree is a sales job. So I landed this sales representative job at a company called Hilti. So Hilti is a big global company. They manufacture and sell products for the construction industry for more for the professional end users, you know, drilling machines and, you know, anchoring systems. And so as a young guy, I drove these typical red cars, went to construction sites, sell drilling machines. And then in the evening, complete writing my thesis and doing a bit of research at those. But it was fun because, you know, as a student back then, you know, one of the benefits was you get a company car. You get a laptop. You get a cell phone. So it was like, yeah, it's win win. And I got money. So so that was the first job. And it was being a sales representative that I got into the data because, you know, suddenly I had the ownership of the customer and contact detail data of plumbers. I was responsible for plumbers in my region from like 300 plumbers and those company data and needed to manage it. And I was so into, you know, cleaning it up and making the data quality look better. And I don't have that guy's email address. I need to have that guy's email address because I know yet and I can mail them and I can do, you know, marketing activities. And so I was really into that data part without even knowing, you know, what was data quality, what was master data. So and a couple of months into the sales representative job, there was this vacancy at the headquarters in Brussels for they called it, what's called local process expert market reach. So it was a very fancy title to say, hey, look, you're a data guy and you will look after the quality and the master data and a bit of the governance of the customer data. And I was like, yeah, I'll do it. And so that was my introduction into data. And then suddenly I was responsible for, you know, setting up data quality initiatives for all the sales representatives to increase the data quality, managing the master data in SAP following policies, which were still made corporate following and implementing the policies was doing all this data stuff, which was new to me. But it really, you know, I really find it very, I find it very attractive and it's satisfying. And because there weren't, that was back in 2011, so 13 years already. But there were, there was no, I was not familiar with data diversity back then. Yeah, so I was, yeah, I bought every book on data that was there. So got the book from Bob Siner, got the first book from John Latly, you know, enterprise information, information enterprise management, you know, got the DM bug. So, yeah, started to read up. And so that's how I became familiar with data governance. So, yeah, and then to continue the story, a couple of years into that job, I switched to, I wanted to take it up, you know, next step, more into data governance, because that was really was fascinating me. And there was this data governance expert role at the biggest chocolate factory in the world, Barry Calabal. So they make, yeah, and one of the biggest factories is in Belgium. So they make chocolate for, you know, from here up until China, Australia, America. So, and I was responsible. They were just rolling out the data governance for the product master data. And Colibra just had set a point, a group of concepts up there. And so they wanted me to roll it further out for customer master data vendor master data. So, yeah, I went to Barry Calabal stayed there for four years. And that was really my learning school. So everything I learned put in practice was responsible for a lot of data migration projects was responsible for the quality, the master data, the governance for the customer master data. And so that's that's was really my my learning school. And so long story short, after that, I went into consulting, I mean, doing consulting now for six years, did projects at big companies in retail, banking insurance, government even, and three years ago, started data vantage consultant. And before you know it, you're 13 years, more than a decade doing data governance. And then you look back, whoa, okay. I love that journey. Okay, so first off, if in case anybody does not know, Belgium is home to some of the best chocolate in the world. Exactly. Yeah, it's so fun that you're just spending some of your journey there. Yeah, it's even like this. So there's this food claim, which is Belgian chocolate. So it's an official claim. You can only put on a chocolate product if it originates from Belgium. So and I think it's, it are the Japanese. They really love Belgium chocolate or the Chinese. So they really want Belgium chocolate, which means that, you know, chocolate comes in many forms. You have the bars, you know, the solid ones, but they also produce liquid chocolate, you know, to create other products from. So the chocolate factory was in this little town in Belgium. So what happened on a daily base, these containers with liquid chocolate, they had like these ventilation kind of systems running 24-7 to keep the chocolate liquid. They drove it with trucks to the port. It was shipped on a boat and that chocolate still being liquid sailed across the globe to land in Japan and China and Australia, where they want true Belgian chocolate. So that happens on a daily base from this small, small town that has, that's the largest chocolate factory in Europe or the world. That was amazing. Kind of a supply chain over there. I can understand why there's a high demand. Having experienced Belgian chocolate in Belgium, that was, yeah, that was, it's amazing. Okay, but I digress. We're here to talk about data. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DVTOX for 20% off your purchase. So, okay, so tell me why did you decide to start your own consulting company? Because I always have this entrepreneurial spirit in me. So I did previous attempts to start a consulting company. This data vantage consulting is the first one that really works. But yeah, I love doing it. And I think I love doing it also because it sounds strange, but I really have a passion for data governance. I really believe it's one of the major management things that need to happen. And so I love helping lots of companies. I have fun in helping them. I have fun in doing it. I have fun in seeing it become a success. And so I thought the best way to do it is start a consulting firm and help them that way instead of taking this job for three years, going to another job, another job. So one, two, reach as many people as possible. And so that's the reason why I started the company alongside also the thing of being free more and being able, because I can make my own choices as an entrepreneur, to take on opportunities like speaking at DGIQ and so on. So that's our main motivators to starting my own company. It truly is a story, an end-to-end story, as diverse as it is of following your passion. We do not find it weird at all in this community that data governance is a passion. It's a great thing. Yeah, and perhaps to make the circle round, I can create a movie about data governance. And so at the end, I'm still a movie director. I want to see that. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I need to see if Brad Pitt is available to play the data governance officer. That would be amazing. So, well, tell me, though, in this journey, what has been your biggest lesson so far in your career? Biggest lesson is, so my journey has been with ups and downs, but I think in one of the things, like I said previously, it's a chain of following my passion. So my passion went from movie directing up until data governance. Also now, for example, I have always also had a passion to write a book. So at the moment, I took the leap. I'm writing a book. I have contacts with publishers also. So I hope this year still my book comes out. It's about the strategy sprint, design sprint and data governance. So it's taking that leap and either to win or you learn from your mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes over the decade and before that. And to me, it's always, you know, if I look back, I reflect on it and I see it as a learning opportunity, which I can capitalize on and learn and then create a win. So I could always look back and say, why didn't I finish that degree? Or why did I, you know, dropped off art school? And so, but to me, it's, you know, following my passion. So that's a bit my motivation. It's great. Yeah. No, I love it. And I love that lesson of taking a leap and not being afraid to fail and that those failures are an important part of taking the next leap. Yeah. The same for, you know, starting a company and being an entrepreneur is one of the biggest leap that somebody can make because, you know, I was in, we call this golden cage at Barakalaba, you know, I had a very good job, well-paid company or whatever you name it in a big corporate. But I chose to leave it all behind and go for the insecurity of consultancy and being in, you know, an independent freelance consultant and finding my own gigs, doing my own marketing and creating my own invoices, hoping that the client will pay within 30 days. So, but by taking the leap, you know, you win also kind of things. So it's very nice, very nice. So now having worked with data for so long, and we talked about your definition data governance, but what's your definition of data? A definition of data. To me, data, and I see data like everywhere. So it's indeed like the typical ones and zeros, but it's also, you know, an email is also dated. When I watch Netflix, it's also data. And so basically data to me is like, you know, kind of information that you act upon. So for example, if I need to, so I'm the chef at home. So I plan the week menu and to plan the main menu, I go to my, you know, my cupboard and my stock and see, okay, what does, okay, do I still have pasta? Okay, one pack. I need two packs. So you're basically looking at the data and planning and making decisions. And the same goes in business. You know, if you're doing, you know, your sales forecast, you look at the numbers, you make decisions on what you're going to do, or you want to optimize on processes to reduce costs, all these kinds of things. So data to me are like these essential pieces of information that you use to make decisions upon. And that's why I also see it as an asset. Because if you take it away, especially in a business context, then yeah, you don't have anything more than basically an empty box with people in it. And so you need it to, you know, make decisions, plan, make you operational, get your objectives there. So that's a bit how I look to data. Makes sense. That's a great definition. So, you know, do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why? That's a very good question. And I'm following a lot of trends on what's happening. And I really am super convinced that it will only increase. And I see a couple of reasons there is, first of all, I see that there's this big shift is happening in the workforce, in companies. So you have the boomers, which are typically people who are at a company for quite a while. They have a lot of knowledge about processes, data assets, all these kinds of things. And they're retiring very, very soon. So you have this, you know, drain of knowledge. But on the other side, you have the generations after the boomers, which tend to be more people and I'm one of them who are more looking towards, you know, career opportunities and job hopping. So you have these like this struggle of companies to keep that institutional knowledge with them, meaning that they now need to think, okay, perhaps we need a business glossary and a data dictionary. And perhaps we need to put those processes, document them before that John or Marcia goes on retirement or Peter leaves for another C level job at another company. So I see that happening. So which also involves, you know, more jobs. Second, especially in Europe, we have a lot of regulations coming up. And one of the biggest ones is related to sustainability and ESG. It's called CSRD, which stands for Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directives, meaning that a lot of companies more than 10,000 across Europe will be obliged to report on what they do, you know, environmentally, socially, governance wise in the upcoming years. That brings with it that they need to find the data, find people who, you know, can report on the data, make it qualitative, make it, you know, governed. So that only that regulation and you have the AI Act, you have the data act coming up as well. So all these regulations will trigger also jobs. And then thirdly, what I see is, of course, you have AI. And now just over the course of one year, you have the explosion of generative AI and all these companies like, what do we need to do with that? So and also with other AI applications and hopefully they have that mindset that, okay, data triggers or is the fuel to AI models. So being garbage in garbage out, managing the data properly would get us more better AI results. So also that triggers to me, you know, an increase in jobs. So you have these like internal, external demands on companies. And I see an increase in on C level and shareholder level on the importance of data governance, putting them more and more and at the top three strategic things, this will bring jobs. And to give a little side story here, we have this television program here in Belgium called the 80s for teenagers. And so it's about a television host who takes the teenagers on a journey through each year of the 80s. And so I was watching the one about 1980. And so they talk about the music and what's happened and they show newsreels. And it was this newsreel where they said, hey, look, there's something new at 1980. It's called the chip. And so the chip, it's a job killer, it will repraise everybody. It's a real job killer. So if you reflect back on it, 40 years later, you see, well, that was one of the biggest opportunities ever. And it will be that it replaced some jobs, the same with AI, but it created so much more jobs. And I'm convinced that data and AI alone will do it as well. So that's, I think, yeah, it will increase. I love that perspective, especially, you know, and there's been a lot of talk around AI and things like that. But I love the perspective of a generation who's retiring and retaining that knowledge. I don't think there's a lot of companies who think about that and should, because you're right, that's a lot of knowledge that goes with them. Yeah, exactly. It's a brain drain. For sure. So what advice would you give to people getting into a career in data management, maybe even specifically data governance? I would say, and I still, I think it's one of the best advices is read a book. It's tempting for people to, you know, listen to a podcast that also helps and read articles, but reading a book of somebody who really put time and effort in researching the material, putting all their experience over the past years into one copy, that really helped. It helped me. So, and if people want, you know, a book recommendation list, feel free to reach out, but a book is the best thing. I read a book. It's from Steven Cutler. It's big performance. And in his book, he also mentions, hey, look, if you want the best time and a time investment and value for your time investment, just read the book. That's one thing. And second, take courses like DataVersity. It's an awesome platform. I don't get any money for saying this, but it's one of the best things of people, my peers like John Latley and Kelly O'Neill, they're really great courses giving all their expertise out there. And if you really want to have, you know, crash courses in it, do that and connect with people. Everybody, especially at conferences, everybody has some data war stories, things that they encounter, you know, things that don't go well, mistakes that people made, try to get these as well. And I think if you combine those, that will already give you a good solid foundation. And then secondly is, yeah, you need to do it. Find a job that really gets you your boots on and your hands dirty and try to, you know, manage data and do data governance. And that would be my advice. Great advice. And one of my favorite things about this community and the community of data practitioners is everybody's so willing to help each other out. Everybody loves talking about data. You know, nobody is going to judge for questions. It's just really great community. It's amazing. I was, so when I was at DJI Q and in Washington last year, I was so amazed of how approachable everybody was. You know, like John Lathley and Bob Siner, they are like rock stars to me. But I ended up having dinner with them and talking about them and having their cell phones and they're so approachable. And they give so much, you know, value of their expertise and it's so great. So to a very, you know, thankful community to data governance, data quality community. Yeah. Well, Matias, thank you so much. This has been so fun to learn about. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed, you know, talking about my passion. Well, thank you. And I'd be remiss if I didn't ask if somebody wanted to solicit your consulting services. How would they find you? Just go to DataVantageConsulting.com and there's everything we do on Inspire, Guide, Empower, it's all there. It also links to my personal website, MatiasFercautern.com, where you can also see my speaking engagement, my articles I wrote. So those are the two sources to check. That's great. And we'll get those links posted to our website as well to the podcast. Again, thank you so much for this great conversation. Yeah, you're welcome. It was a really honor and it's a real pleasure to be here. So thanks a lot, Shannon. Likewise. And to all of our listeners out there, if you'd like to keep up to date in the latest podcast and in the latest in data management education, you may go to DataVersity.net forward slash subscribe until next time. Stay curious, everyone. Thank you for listening to DataVersity Talks, a podcast brought to you by DataVersity. Subscribe to our newsletter for podcast updates and information about our free educational webinars at DataVersity.net forward slash subscribe.