 Ym mwyn arweithio gadegrwyd y taith yn y cyfrifodol gwahanol a bod yn y cyfrifodol y bydd erdyn nhw'n dweud hynny. Wellw yr cyfrifodol y bydd y Cymru i gael gyfan Tyrebu Dynu. Pwy oedd anodd yr chairman yw Ilywyr, ac mae själwyr ar Bahelings ac mae'n gweithio gan gyfrifodol y bydd y Cyfrifodol Cymru. Nu ydych chi'r ymddwysau ar gyfrifodol, y cyfrifodol y byd yn y COVINAT, the actions required to achieve the council's targets on climate change and its environmental commitments. The usual instructions apply that everything that you have on your desks and tables in front of you can be viewed by the camera, so please make sure that only what you want to be seen can be seen. And the camera will follow the microphones being switched on. So, just wait a couple of moments before you start speaking after the camera comes to you. I think we've got together with us online. Who do we have with us online? Yes. Hello, Siobhan. Hello, committee. And Ellie, hello. Hi, I see that we've got Luke. Hi, Peter as well. Hello there. And to me. And it looks like we have Councillor Charona, Bata Charia as well, and Councillor Dr Tumi Hawkins online, too, which is fantastic. Thank you very much. And in the room, together with me, I have myself as chair of the committee and my vice chair. So, Jeff Harvey. Vice chair for climate change and my other vice chair. Martin Cunn. Thank you very much. It's an impet. Thank you. And also as officers, the senior officers in the room. Bodeasol. Thank you. And we also have Patrick with us. Patrick Adams-Clarke. Thank you very much. Very, very much. And thank you very much to Aaron as well, who is, as always, helping us manage the IT. So Patrick, if you'd help us, we go to item number one, which are any apologies? No, not any apologies, chair. And as you've already said, Councillor Shriver of Bata Charia has joined us online. Great. Good. And item number two of the agenda, which are declarations of interest. Do we have any declarations of interest members? I don't know if I need to declare it, but I'm a member of the Hazelfield and Hawthorne in the Concrete Fund, so we haven't made any applications for funding to the Council, but there's a chance for more in the future, so I just wanted to raise that. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yep, I think you don't need to do that in the meetings where that came up. So that's fine. Yeah, that's good. And if we go to agenda item three, which are the minutes of the previous meeting. Members, do you have any comments on the minutes of the previous meeting? Councillor Bifarck. Just number seven on the greenhouse gas emissions accounts. I think it said following the meeting, the development officer provided some information on roads and motorways and railways. It says all figures are in tonnes of CO2, but I think that should be thousands of tonnes. I think you make that point during the meeting on the report. What is that? I don't know. But anyway, yes, so Siobhan. Just to get the context right. It's a small task. I'm sure that's correct. Councillor Bair Park, we'll get that change. Thank you. Thank you for spotting that legalised, that's very important. Members, do you have any other comments on the minutes? No. So can I take by affirmation that the minutes are approved? Thank you very much. And we've got one huge substantive item really today on the agenda for going on to the forward planning, which hopefully will fall out of the discussions which are today, which is about the revised zero carbon and doubling nature action plan 2020 to 2025. But before that, I would just like to recognise because this happened at a time when we didn't have a meeting that that the Council was nominated for the Municipal Journal Award for Leadership in Responding to the Climate Emergency for its Green to the Corp programme. And I was very privileged to go together with Siobhan and Ellie as representatives as well of the Council to be present at that award giving ceremony. So well done everybody, everybody as well for leading the team in that presentation. Siobhan. So, but we did receive an award and it was about sort of how we've done that transformation across the department and of all sectors of the council and together with other councils at different levels. So it's now that the action plan we're looking ahead at, you know, how do we continue that and even meet those ambitious targets we have and make sure that there aren't any gaps? Siobhan, do you want to present the report today? I'll be very pleased to present that report. Just before I do that, there were three sort of matters arising from the minutes where we just took actions to get some information and such like. And so if you'd like me to, I'll just report back on those. So one of them was on the electricity usage from the data services. So our ICT services are provided by three C shared services with service servers located at Sand Martin House in Peterborough and Pathfinder House in Huntington. And we've contacted three C shared services together with the city climate change officer. And we're talking to them about getting these the electricity usage for the ICT services in our scope three greenhouse gas emissions. And so we hope to be able to do that for next year. And they will be calculated on the basis of a three way equal split between the three authorities. And three CICT have asked us to note they're currently in the process of bidding for new hardware within the data centre environment, which is expected to incorporate new technologies which will reduce electricity usage. So they thought you'd like to hear that. So that was the first matter. The second one just excellent news. That's really, really good. And I know it's been something that's kind of been in the background for a concern for a long time, which is that huge energy usage by the second one, which is an action on reducing green waste and this and also developing repair workshops in the district, which was mentioned later in the minutes are both included in the waste policy team's circular resource strategy and their current work plan. And we did think that CAC might like a future agenda item on this circular resource strategy. And if you did want that, then that would be very easy to arrange. Thank you. We'll take that down for that item of the agenda, but I'm sure there'll be lots of interest in that. And finally, there was an action about finding out about current work from off-gem to ensure that the cost of installing rapid chargers would not fall disproportionately on those who first paid to install the charger in a particular area. And we believe this is part of off-gems review of the future of local energy institutions and governance. And the shared planning service have provided input to response to the call for input on this provided by the Greater Southeast Net Zero Hub. So we can circulate this response if that would be helpful. Really, really helpful. Yep. Lots of nods in the room, please. That would be very, very helpful. Thank you, Siobhan. Great. Well, that's all of the matters arising. So I'll now move to the report, which is on the revised Zero Carbon Doubling Nature Action Plan. And just by way of introduction earlier this year, there were two reviews of the council's action to address the climate and ecological emergencies. So the first of these was from the campaigning organisation, Climate Emergency UK, and they reviewed our Zero Carbon Doubling Nature Action Plan as part of a review of the climate action plans of all councils across the country. And what came across from this really was that our action plan didn't do justice to the full extent of work that the council was doing. And the second report that we commissioned from Bioregional looked at the bigger picture of the council's work noting our strengths, including in decarbonising our own estate in waste and recycling, in planning policy and community engagement, but also flagging some areas where we might like to consider doing more. And so in the light of these, we've rewritten our action plan. We've we've relabeled sections to make it clearer how they contribute to the wider goal of moving to net zero. We've added supplementary information, for example, about the governance and financing of the plan and about how it integrates with other council policies and strategies. That's all in the introduction. We've included some actions which we were doing anyway, but we hadn't included in the original plan. And we've added some new actions. So the revised plan is at the appendix. And like the original plan includes actions to cover three objectives, reducing emissions on our own estate and operations, reducing emissions in the wider district and doubling nature in the district. I won't won't go into any more detail on that, but I have received some very helpful suggestions from two committee members, which I'm happy to include in the action plan if the committee wish me to do so. And so I'm I can go through through these quickly from the chair, two additional paragraphs in the introduction, one referencing the council's cost of living work in relation to climate justice and the second making the point that the council is actively exploring options to support the greater involvement of young people in decision making at the council and climate and environment will be considered in this in this exploration. Section 1.3, a target date for milestone for completion of charging points at South Cams Hall. It's meaning I'm happy to add section 1.2 as the next milestone for the retrofit of South Cams Hall, a report on the energy performance for the first year of operation. Section 1.3, as the next milestone for this, a usage report for the first year of operation of the charging points. There's three more across reference in section 2.4 about new build energy performance standards. Cross reference to the work that the Greater Cambridge Shared planning are doing on planning policy related to this. Section 2.6, in regard to exploring the feasibility of further action on sustainable food. Specific mention of a sustainable food strategy. And finally from the chair, addition in section 3.2 of the words take up opportunities of new government funding for tree planting together with partners to the action on six free trees. So those were the suggestions from the chair and from Councillor Redrup, a query regarding the logic of how the actions are apportioned under objectives 1 and 2. And having discussed this with her, we'd like to suggest that it's made clearer that the actions under objective 1 are all intended to contribute to emissions reductions in the council's greenhouse gas accounts. And we might move the last two actions in that section, which unlike the others are not included in the accounts into objective 2 just to make that clearer. Fairly complicated, difficult to just perhaps explain, but I'm happy to take any further comments on suggestions. So if I understand it, we're looking objective 1, which is to reduce net greenhouse gas emissions from the council's estate and operations. And we've got the targets by 45% by 2025 and 75% on the same baseline. Rather than that, just including everything which is on the council estate operations in terms of the three spheres of influence, as I was understanding, this was organised. It's only the things within objective 1 that you are then that can be within the GHG, you know, accounting you're saying. So you could have under objective 2 things that are part of our council's estate and operations, but they're part of the district wide. Is that right? Because they don't form part of the accounts. Yeah, it's just that clarity between what is what forms part of the accounts and what doesn't. So in effect, the, yeah, so the scope, scope 3 that aren't in the accounts form fall into objective 2. So in terms of our three spheres of influence on, we're looking at the first one, we're not using scope 3. We're just saying, is that what you're saying? Yes, we're not using scope 3 with the exception of business travel, because that is one area that we are able to account for. The way I was thinking of it in my mind from Siobhan's explanation was that it's the things that we sort of pay the energy bills for, that we're then accounting for in objective 1, and then wider things are now in objective 2. So, so I think hopefully I've understood that right and it now makes sense to me. So I was okay with that. Thank you, Siobhan. Thanks, Siobhan. Does anybody else want to comment on it? So basically it would be just very good if we can find the language. You're very good at this, Siobhan, sort of, you know, the language that is understandable for everybody when they're looking. So it's slightly different from our three spheres of influence. It's going much more into the accounting, but, you know, the counting ways of looking at the objectives. Yeah, I mean, there are, you know, there are various ways of doing it. I'm very happy to take a discussion online and really make sure that we have got the best one, one of these. I mean, I think perhaps the key thing is to, is to ensure that it is, it's clear why some things are in objective 1 and some things are in objective 2. I think what I'm hearing from you is that you felt that objective 1 is the things over which we have control, whereas objective 2 is the areas that we are influencing through policies and through the direct influence. Yeah, so I don't mind doing it that way. I'll need to go back and just look again and make sure that it is, that's, that's, that's the other way. Shall we just say that let's take another look at that and just make sure we've got that right, Melissa? Thank you for raising that. So it's, because it's also a communication tool, isn't it? As well as being our way of organising ourselves in terms of, I don't know how do you want to say anything or we can take that away as an action. Thank you. Brian, Councillor Vain. Thank you. Just wanted to reference in this respect, the County Council has a shadow carbon cost system and they've just been making some adjustments to that and I don't know whether Siobhan is already aware of it quite probably, but there might be some interesting comparisons between what we're doing here with that and what the county is now doing. Thank you. Yes, thank you for that. We are looking at climate action tools and such like. And so, yeah, we'll, we will, we will look further at that. Councillor Jeff Harvie. Yes, thank you chair. And I think firstly I go to the bottom of the class for not feeding me through two to one in advance, but if I could just really hopefully just going down to a lower level of specifics that could be included in the plan. Firstly under section 2.2.1, the importance of considering onshore wind and battery storage as contributing to renewable energy whereas battery storage being a very compact form of energy when it's needed and being able to store surplus green energy when not needed. So that was one suggestion. Under section 2.2.2, there was a specific proposal which I've made before and discussed with Anglen Water to the possibility of extracting waste heat from the Cambridge City effluent stream and using that to heat the new settlement. I think that's that's viewed by Anglen Water as a realistic possibility. So we could just have a form of words that keeps that in the forefront if you like. Then returning to 2.2.1, I might be stealing Councillor Khan's initiative here, but I think it is. So don't. Okay, I won't. So I'll let Councillor Khan talk about importance of it. I would just like to talk about what we decided. I think going back really probably to 2018 and on this sort of direction of travel for planning involving heritage assets and moving from a prescriptive to a proactive stance, I know much has been done in terms of providing the tools that owners of heritage houses need in order to give them the information to retrofit. For example, it's much more complex than it would be in a more modern house. But I think backing that up also sort of gradual shift as we discussed in our motion in September last year, a gradual re-evaluation of how one re-evaluates the balance in terms of the natural planning policy framework between public benefit and heritage value and the fact that as the need to respond to climate change becomes ever more urgent, then the weight given to climate change should commensurately be more urgent, if you like. And I think part of that motion was that we could develop a series of case studies in planning and we've had some cases that are relevant to this recently in planning committee. So I would like to note that. That's all I've got to say. Thank you. Thank you. So that would be 2.2.1 as well because that would be a planning issue here. Before, so how do you want to do this Siobhan? There's a cluster there. Do you want to hear all of the suggestions or do you want to respond in turn? I think if we can both. We'll hear all of them, take notes and then take the necessary action. But if we can just come back quickly on those first two, if I make and so we'll have it. Just to ask that the action plan is not intended to be that detailed in terms of the level of granularity because we want action plans for something that we can actually respond on and action on and then come back and report on. Because when it comes to interfacing with others, the problem is definitely we will do that. People like Anglain Water and also I'm actually already speaking to the planners about the new, the lifting of the restrictions on non-shell wind. So that's more like business as usual rather than an action that we can actually take and report on. So maybe we can capture those sort of comments elsewhere in the work of the team but not include them specifically within this action plan. But we've taken on both those comments. So thank you very much. I think that will help all of our comments so we can look at to raise the issues. And I think what I've encouraged everybody to do is also say what are things that recognizing that this is really quite already an ambitious and that officers are working really hard to deliver this action plan already. And that this is budgeted out so really recognizing that. Secondly, if there is anything that people feel strongly in this year should be included really understanding where that goes inserts itself specifically but does it mean that something else comes out if you had to because there's only so much resource and time to do this. And also then Siobhan in terms of the forward plan. So maybe there are some things that we want to discuss and start planning for the following year but we actually need to have the discussions around and bring the evidence based in so we can perhaps parcel these out into different ways of handling them. I was just wondering with the onshore wind whether or not in 2.2.1 we do say in the actions first proposals of the plan include a net zero carbon buildings policy as well as wider policies related to the role of new development it could be and energy provision as part of planning. So it doesn't specifically say onshore wind or battery but it's at the moment it's only about buildings and development rather than the wider when in fact the local plan does impact it will say where are the suitable areas and conditions for that. So perhaps just to say that it could be in there without going down to real specifics it's still making it broader overarching things Siobhan yes. Yes I mean I would want to encourage you to kind of to follow up on the detail I mean the reality is that the planning policies the emergence planning policies for the local plan there is a huge extent of those and certainly we don't want to be putting I would I would say we don't want really any detail in in in this plan. It's this we more want some kind of headline all encompassing actions and then the actual detail of what is happening through planning policy needs to be looked at separately because otherwise we will get a zero carbon doubling nature action plan which is ridiculously long and also is very much repeating what is happening elsewhere. So I would just suggest that the scrutiny of the of exactly what's happening through planning policies sort of help that happens elsewhere. Does that make sense? I'm opening it up I think if we if we include in here within the language that's in here already Siobhan. So I think what we're going to get is the next version of the draft of the local plan and I think CAC's role is to ensure that within that local plan going forwards you know we may have certain priorities to want to hold that those still stay as we get the different versions coming through. So here we're saying net zero carbon buildings you know again that has to go through its own process but the committee is saying that's one of the areas that we would like to you know be scrutinising on as well as we've then gone broad wider policies related to the role of new development and I just think we're limiting ourselves if we don't include you know energy generation storage within that very broad it can be any type but it would be broad within that otherwise we've kind of limited ourselves. Yes I take that. I appreciate this is very much a high level plan and I think what you said Siobhan raises the question of where is the more detailed plan not just for the planning issues but across the board and in particular I was looking at the milestones normally with the milestone you have a date many of these updates but many of them don't have dates so where would we go to see a more granular plan is it available to us because we do very much appreciate that there's a lot of actions resources finite project managers normally about sacrificing something for the sake of something else I just wonder as a committee whether we will see that detail in such a way we can get you to tell us that now you do don't have the resource to achieve those milestones or those milestones are as far back as they are because you don't have additional resource because we should be pushing for more resource so where do we go to see the more detailed plan with milestones and see how they are resource limited where they are that's what I think I'm really getting at because I think they're all great ambitions we will know the great ambitions where do we go sorry would you like me to come back on that yes of course in relation to the planning policies so that is very much I mean the greater Cambridge shared planning website actually will lists out gives a very good account of where they're at with the emerging plan the evidence base the proposed policies and what you might like to do is actually invite the Planning Policy Officer to come and sort of go through where they're at with those I mean that would be the way to do it I would suggest I did reach out to especially the new members recently elected and members of this committee just to ask what was their level of knowledge of the draft local plan and they would very much appreciate having a you know it could one of those lunchtime ones you know that we talked about before of a briefing about you know what are the elements that are kind of groundbreaking within the draft local plan around climate change environment that would be very very much on the forward plan and perhaps those lunches that we talked about are sort of informal some briefings would be really useful I think my question is yes so the second question just to follow up on what John is saying I think what John is asking is this is high level and if the final column would be to say by when by which date and perhaps you could even include at that high level what's the target expected of the kind of emissions reduction through these high level actions underneath that John is saying is there a resource action plan that's that you manage as a team to say and what are the detailed actions what are the resource you know that you're dedicating to that what's the cost of that so that when we've challenged members to say if you want to add something new you have to realise there are resource constraints they say well show me what you know where's the detail so the question is where is that detail sort of action resource plan yeah great go ahead go ahead she won't no no please please buddy you go ahead what I was going to say was that definitely there is a question and the location of that very so for instance just go back to the beginning 1.1.1 1.1.2.3.4 these are all detailed projects that are managed by the green to our core project so for instance just pick it on the what's a big solar PV project that's an entire project by itself that has a project team that has a consultant working with us so each of them depending on the magnitude is very much a standalone product by itself that's then monitored under the green to our core program so that will have a project initiative document that will have a reporting mechanism what the green to our core and I think some of them also periodically we do report back to see it so for instance the story actually read at the last meeting of see if we give an update so I think depending on the magnitude we can bring progress updates to see it but also just to give you the assurance that they are all individually resourced and manage the source so there's any that you wanted some information and we'll be happy to share that so project minus makes more project by project rather than an overall counselor brand thank you so I just wonder about emergent government policy for example so your discussion here about onshore wind farm and we've already had a discussion about the possibility of supplementing the Wren project of Water Beach and is it possible to have a turbine there for example because we will still be in deficit for the charging capacity of the solar array that will only support 30 or so vehicles out of the 3 to 50 so we would want supplemental power capabilities in there if we can get them but of course emergent policy particularly with the current government's vacillation over various aspects of its policy really difficult to pin that down and align it with our local plan because that has to be consistent with national policy so I'm equally interested in the mechanism for us to take that forward here and then cabinet members thank you very much Casper so I'll bring this councillor to me Hawkins but also councillor Jeff Harvey who has been in touch on having ongoing conversations with the officer for environmental sustainability Emma Davies exactly about this issue so Emma is doing, do you want to explain? OK on wind power so I think there is Sorry Yes so I have discussed with Emma Davies who is a sustainability expert there is a study on going looking at the topography and the kind of location of settlements and trying to identify what would be suitable areas for wind power I think that report is ongoing but we do hear something for the end of the year So that's the mechanism is that the great Cambridge Shared Planning Service has already commissioned a study under the existing legislation to see what could go into the draft local plan as part of the evidence for it and they are aware of the new legislation so we'll be looking at when that if that does change during the time of the draft local plan how that would fit in so we're alive to that so I think the mechanism is with SIAC as well there was a nudge that we should be looking at that Are we looking at it? Yes there is Yes there's a study Can we be kept updated about it? Yes This is the mechanism by which we can work together and input into the process Councillor Dott, to me Hawkins you've got your hand up as well so you are leading on that local planning the local plan drafting process Thank you very much Councillor Halings Yes that is correct Obviously there is a close link between the work of SIAC and the work that the planning policy officers are doing on our emerging joint local plan We actually had the first meeting in this municipal year of the joint local plan advisory group yesterday and talked about some of the issues that you are raising now so my suggestion is that we if SIAC doesn't have it already is to look at the timetable that we have for the JLPag meetings because we're going to be discussing all these issues that you will find relevant and perhaps members you might want to nominate members of the SIAC to attend the relevant meetings so that you can actually contribute at that point Whilst I it's important that we talk together we also need to make sure that we actually maximise our resources and not duplicate them I'm sorry that you weren't able to attend or maybe didn't know about yesterday's meeting and didn't attend but we actually discussed the climate issues I remember thinking during the meeting that there's no SIAC person here that would have been great to have someone attend So perhaps we can go back 15 minutes later I came from one meeting to another meeting into that one so I did join that one to me It would be I think what we can do as SIAC is today at the end of this meeting is to see who we would nominate I think that's a very good suggestion neither at that stage of the next round of consultations based on the next version of that timetable meetings that you're looking at But there's a lot of work we're going to be doing before the consultations actually and I think this is the time to have the input from SIAC which is why I am emphasising this now Let's discuss what was the outcomes from yesterday's meeting which will have a bearing on what you're thinking of now and then have your input at that point because this is why we're having those JLPAT meetings now They are to actually come up with ideas from members members to look at the feedback we had from the first proposals consultation and then bringing those inputs so that we have that input to them on the next local plan We could do is as when we were doing the first draft of the local plan is we could set up a little small working group from SIAC from which we have somebody who is nominated then to go to the attend those JLPAT meetings but also we have a little discussion group going as well that can report back then formally to SIAC because it will be December before our next formal committee meeting but we could have a small group working on those Thank you so much Thank you I'm coming back to the issue which really I was just to highlight which we were discussing earlier pre-meeting was the issue of extensions in housing you're talking about new development Which number are we on? We're talking about again on the slot 2-1 on planning issues that we're talking purely about new development at the end of local plan will only perhaps a maximum be 20% of the development in the district the majority is going to be existing development and one of the we need to look at whether our planning tools in planning in terms of extensions and so on which we can have an influence on that I understand that you can't require that the whole house meets new higher standards but there may be opportunities there I think it's the one tool we have to planning we might have on existing development I think that's one factor to be considered in this so the other comment I wanted to make was upon what we were discussing around on the different scopes about about both housing business mileage and council housing they're both areas in which we don't actually control I mean business mileage it's the officers that by the pay for the fuel and determine the mileage and we're obliged to pay for the mileage they use we have an influence we have an influence, we can influence but we can't actually determine the savings of council housing it's the tenants by the by the fuel but we do influence in terms of the investments we put in the housing and reducing use so they were sort of intermediate both are very intermediate category in the others where we have an influence but we don't actually directly control we might consider how that might be used in the appraisal that's a simple comment that I would make thank you so just going back to I think if we're looking at just that action where we're getting involved in the mechanism that was requested what are we doing in terms of the mechanism so 2.2.1 says progress planning policies and then in the action the first proposals include I think the detail of this is this is our action as a committee how we get involved in that and that's what you're saying isn't it Siobhan, so this is the overarching thing how we do that we just need to have a minute that one of the ways the mechanisms that we will do that in this period now is to form a small group and to nominate somebody to the joint local planning advisory group because that's a member role so we can do that together with officers so I think that's one of the key actions underneath that coming back to Councillor Jeff Harvie's comment on heritage the heritage buildings would that be under the that's not new build is it that's more about how you help residents retrofit their own homes and that's how they get involved in you know that's very understandable to residents this is my home I'm in a semi rural area we've got these really difficult homes to try and make energy efficient and keep warm and keep up the energy bills down and balance out the heritage and conservation with those energy efficiency measures it has come through a motion there is now sort of case law from our own planning committee on this I do think this can be one of the I think nationally for areas like ours this can be something which is really really useful to other councils we've still got some work to do internally with our conservation and planning officers to say how do you do that and in which kind of which is why they want the planning Jane Green as head of the natural environment suggested that it's through a series of case studies so again this is a detail thing but we just want to make sure that our members are working with the built and natural environment and the conservation officers if we get those case studies this is again something I think that could be really useful to share nationally where would that kind of go is it a detail thing that isn't in the over arching how do we capture it as opposed to the question there that Councillor Harvey is asking in it whether it's under the decarbonising under homes when we get to retrofitting support home energy improvements I think we are very much trying to capture the work that is going on through this plan and there is work being undertaken with our heritage team and so we could perhaps add an action in there I mean they in response to the climate environment advisory committee meeting with them they now have pretty comprehensive web pages including I believe some case studies I'm not sure what continuing action is there but I can find out I think this is a sort of find out and report back probably recommendation that would that be under 2.4 then that's where it would seem to me that it fits in there because as you say it's once again this is recognising something that is already happening so it's not as if adding on you know new burden it is something that's already happening and we would then have somebody nominated from SEAC to follow up on that I think yeah good so if that's taken through as a recommendation there thank you very much do we have any other comments or recommendations on the plan council for their part yeah I just wanted to really follow up on councillor Cahn's comments about extensions so I suppose the council although we may not be able to require residents to be able to to improve the energy efficiency of the whole home when they do an extension we do through the planning process having to know when somebody is about to go through the process of renovating their house or extending it so it's kind of an opportunity there's an opportunity there perhaps to provide some kind of guidance or help in terms of the things someone might do as they're doing that renovation or extension to improve its energy efficiency even though we can't you know mandate it necessarily so we're kind of there at the right time it's weather through the planning process we can provide that guidance so I remember so Cambridge, Carlham Footprint do their eco homes project every year and they've been doing it about 10, 11, 12 years and what that is all about is trying to help householders understand what the potential is for improving energy efficiency of their homes a lot of those homes that come through exhibited during the eco homes are houses that have been through renovation or extensions and the homeowners have taken the opportunity to go further than they need to go than the building regulations require them to go and then they're able to explain the benefits of what they did and I just wonder if there's an opportunity to build some of that into the planning process and even be a leaflet that goes out to householders at the time they submit a planning application which kind of time posts them to information about how they may take it a step further in terms of the the retrofit that they're doing and taking that opportunity because once you've finished the house and you've painted everything the last thing you want to be doing is then kind of fitting internal wall insulation for instance or floor insulation that opportunity is kind of lost once it's finished so I'm just wondering if there's an opportunity for the council because it knows about that that that's happening that they could provide some information at that point and may I call the councillor Dr Timmy Hawkins were you able to hear that? Yes chair I heard that it is an interesting point we we are currently working on guidelines to help owners of heritage buildings to improve their buildings and there's no reason why that can be extended but what we cannot do is force homeowners to make changes to existing buildings for extensions and new buildings, yes in the local plan this is what it needs to be but we can't retro respectively ask them to do that but yes we can take that forward and have a look at what we can do to assist homeowners to improve If that is something that you could see with planning to so that we've got the guidance for the heritage building guidance for extensions so nobody is saying there's nothing that we can insist on to make sure it's an obligation but guidance to them so it's part of that education people are interested in while they're doing it maybe they haven't thought about it here's some guidance and so planning applications coming in do you also realise or as you're about to submit planning applications for this guidance guidance to think did you realise you could cut your energy bills down or send them through the roof if you're building an extension find more here yes yes we'll be happy to take that away and consider that and of course in the times we're in now it will be of vital interest I'm sure so I was wondering because when we are looking at that climate justice side which is when we're looking at providing them with information around debt relief but how to get your energy bills down this is a key one you maybe might not have thought that your extension is a part of keeping your energy bills down or actually sending them through the roof so yes thank you very much for that any thank you I think that is such a good idea I think that is so good and I'm just wondering whether we can when we get the planning application through that we can perhaps go back to the applicant and say if you'd like to go through to our planning department and ask for any help and just show that we're helping you yes we're actually concerned we're thinking about you if you want further information just offer it if that would be okay great good thank you thank you very much was it Jeff Harvey and perhaps Brandon yes thank you chair we'll just come back to what I thought councillor Carlon might have mentioned but giving all credit really highlighting the importance of embedded carbon and whole life carbon cost in the planning process but I checked in the first proposal document this morning and the section there does very much talk about whole life carbon cost so I think we should applaud our team planning for being really ahead of the game because it's something that our residents have started to pick up on and you can build a sort of passive house standard house but of course once you get down to that low ongoing energy use it's actually the embedded carbon over the lifetime the building becomes so we very much need to keep that in the forefront thank you councillor Brian Mills thank you just while we're talking about energy efficiency we'll be having a conversation with councillor Stobart about keeping houses cool in the summer when we've got these increasingly hot climate change induced temperatures and of course in Southern Europe and in Africa they're very good at doing ventilation systems where he can escape and we're right at the front of this but we are seeing people going out and buying air conditioning units to keep their houses and particularly their offices cool and they're hugely inefficient in terms of power use so I think it would be really useful to see if we could also adopt some guidance for that scenario as well Jeff mentioned passive house standards and of course one of the features of passive house is that cooling is integrated into the design and we've also got we're installing as a council mechanical heat and ventilation systems but they're not able to be reversed but you can buy units that can be reversed so you can expel hot air while retaining the heat so there's a couple of suggestions in line with what we've just suggested in terms of advice for people either doing new builds or extensions thank you thank you very much you mentioned the Officer Emma Davis who works in the shared planning service who is the sustainability expert and in our supplementary planning document I think we are just incredibly privileged to have somebody of her stature so in that document that was done a few years ago and it was three years ago the supplementary planning document for construction of buildings for sustainable construction of buildings she already flagged up that it's about the heat mitigation both in terms of cold and keeping the house warm and then how do you keep the house cool and you keep the mould away while you're doing all of these things so already in our supplementary planning document but that's in a supplementary planning document so what we've talked about here is about guidance and helping people in a bit of a proactive way it's easy to take that out of there and make a little fact sheet for people who are interested in that so have you considered as well what we've got at these hermetically sealed really energy efficient new homes which means that the minute you start washing in them and hanging up your washing you've got humidity trapped in there and you've got the black mould you've got floors that suddenly wood in the floor because it's not like the old houses it went out through the windows or through the eaves or something like that we've made these hermetically sealed units so she was way ahead of the curve and has already put that in our supplementary planning document but I think this is about how do we make that into something that ordinary people we can just know about and that leads me to another question which I did bring up when we made our net zero strategy as you know Siobhan, I'm wondering whether this is the moment to start thinking about this in our vision statement we talk about the net zero emissions and about doubling nature we don't talk about adaptation so what we're talking about now is how do we adapt to the changing climate how do we adapt to heat waves so when you go around many of our sheltered housing or the old people's estate you find that the windows and doors are open and there is not a breath of air so even though everything is open that is not providing them with any cooling at all in some of these really really hot days and we've got this summer again like in the summer of 2020 thousands are dying through heat waves in our country and it's mainly the elderly who are vulnerable so adaptation climate change adaptation is a key piece of what we're doing and we're already kind of doing it but we don't tag it as that and if we look at the county council sort of vision statement and if we adapted it to ours it would be our ambitions to achieve net zero carbon emissions and double nature in South Cambridgeshire by 2050 whilst supporting communities and our natural environment to adapt and thrive as climate changes so we're bringing in the adaptation language so we're helping people to adapt to colder to the storms, the flooding and to the heat waves so the briefing that goes out is a briefing about how to deal with heat waves it's about how to keep your energy bills down but it's all about climate change adaptation in terms of the information that's going out so we've got two guidance documents that were there and I think the second one would be pulled from that sustainable supplementary planning document do we have any other comments or recommendations for the Siobhan did you want to come back in? Just coming back on the comments you were just making about adaptation and in recognition that we are already actually as you say doing a certain amount certainly through planning policy on this but also in terms of our the work that we do on flooding that it would be very easy to just add an additional section and capture that and I think we haven't captured that to date and we should so we could do that We are doing it and I think as you said we have this conversation before and at the time it wasn't the time but I think as we look at any kind of league tables that's starting to come through councils will be on the front line of flooding of heat waves of everything and that's about adaptation so if we can be ahead of that we are thinking about adaptation the national adaptation plan is being reviewed as we speak the next five year national climate adaptation plan and there will be a local government section of that so again as you say Siobhan we are doing it let's just make sure that it's captured in our vision and narrative thank you Good any other Thank you councillor Lisa Redrup Hi it's just a technical question I mentioned an equality's impact assessment in the report and I was just wondering when that would be carried out and what that might what changes that might make to the plan Should I come back on that? Yes please do I've actually got a meeting about that tomorrow so that will be carried out very soon it's a standard thing that we do with our policies and strategies and it will essentially it'll capture the fact that climate change is particularly problematic for the more vulnerable people and that much of the climate action that we are doing and that's being taken generally is helpful to those groups however there are risks and so it'll just capture all that when I say there are risks there are certainly issues in terms of less well off households being less able to afford the changes that are involved in the transition so it will just capture all those things really Thank you very much everyone Would it be okay to ask one more question please chair I was just wondering we've got these objectives like 45% reduction by 2025 this is a 2025 plan up until 2025 just wondering if the action is in the plan are sufficient for that or if we need to keep adding actions on so the actions in that section in that first section should be sufficient to meet that initial target and so we're not looking to add any further actions specifically for that the the the sort of the section 2 the wider remissions that is obviously that's more difficult when we don't have control over those but certainly in terms of our own state and emissions our only state and operations we actually recently had an audit of that risk of not meeting our targets of which again we could share if required Thank you to one was the audit for all three objectives No, just that first one I guess I was also wondering for the doubling nature one do we have baseline data for that or is that something that is very hard to to do? It's very much something that on a county basis they're looking at baseline data so our actions are about contributing to that wider county piece really so there is work going on on that but we're not in charge of that work on the baseline Thank you very much Thanks, Siobhan so perhaps maybe on that would be whether or not in the action plan and when it's brought to SIAC is that we have a summary sort of progress towards meeting targets for that first objective so that our job is to be supportive of you we're concerned about the risks of not meeting as well so it would be really good to know are we on target should we be helping anyway or just having a very difficult decision if context has changed and is there a reason why we can't meet it what decision should we make so it would be really good if that could be without the final column or it's a summary at the top in terms of progress towards meeting those emissions targets Yes, sure, we can include that in the report I think when we last reported against the plan which was back in June we did provide that information but perhaps if we could provide that actually on the same document it would be clearer Coming back to the building nature issue I understand that the issue is primarily of the county council but I think we do need to look at how it applies in our district it's very ambitious target and this is not really about protecting existing sites which we should be doing it's about doubling nature, creating new areas of nature that actually implies a certain proportion of the county has to be converted a year to meet our target and I think it is useful that we should be identifying what we should be achieving to get some idea of what the challenge is part of our role so we can see whether we are actually getting somewhere towards it so I think there is quite a need there another aspect of which we are handicapped by is that we don't have our own green spaces and park service we are the only district in the county that doesn't it goes back to some time ago when that decision was taken and it's as we always find it's a devil of a job to get back a service if it's been dropped from a local authority that's natural but I think we do need to draw attention to this fact but this perhaps we need to be looking about how we manage that that issue came up actually in planning when I was at on the JDCC about the new development of Cherry Hinton where part of the site is in south of Cambridge part of the site is in the city and the city is taking over the green spaces in the city area and what question what's going to happen in the south cams area with a large lot of developments around Cambridge and the resistance to management companies which are always objected to this issue is going to come to the fore and I think we do need to re-examine how we manage areas whether we need to think about that it's difficult at the time when all the talk is about cutting back on finance but we do have to think about this is longer term, this is another 30 years so we do need to think about how that happens over the longer term I don't know at least mention that this is an issue that we need to be looking at Thank you Any I just wanted to comment on something in the bioregional report I think it's probably something for the action plan something for the forward plan so they were talking about in the gaps section that south cams could more widely publicly communicate how they're leveraging their position within the GCP the CPCA and the counter council so I kind of read that as kind of taking it maybe we should be taking it further than just communication so starting with the CPCA they have the independent commission on climate change now to be honest I'm not really up to speed with where that is at the moment and what the strategy is and what the action plan is for that but obviously south cams is within that and our action plan goes some way towards achieving their action plan so I wonder whether it might be an interesting thing to do would be to look at how does this map on to the CPCA action plan unfortunately I don't know how developed it is at the moment but when it is developed we could look at how is this contributing to that and then in terms of the forward plan I think it will be useful for this group to do some work on perhaps reviewing some of the work that the GCP does and feeding in well I'm an assembly member so I'll be interested to understand this group's view on some of the issues climate and environment issues of the projects that the GCP is undertaking and in fact maybe this action plan provides some evidence as to why the GCP should be doing things in a certain way in terms of ensuring that there is biodiversity net gain from some of the projects that some projects are undertaking rather than others and that sort of thing so I think that there is an opportunity for this group to have some input into what the GCP into some of the GCP assembly work given that we have some influence at the GCP level Thank you very much Councillor Paul Bedby If we look at the forward plan Siobhan what we haven't done is since the combined authority with representatives from south camps on it and also with leadership on the environmental side through our leader Councillor Bridget Smith was to approve the recommendations of the independent climate commission those recommendations included a more ambitious target for net zero and we haven't had the conversation about what does that mean so you were saying Matt, how ours contributes there is a sort of a two-way thing on this as well is there a need for any kind of review of what were of our targets given that those recommendations were adopted by the combined authority and were a part of that combined authority so are there any actions that are therefore coming out of that those recommendations that we need to be looking at how to adopt or contribute to are there any implications for what was adopted and I don't think it's I think it's more in that forward plan we start to have those conversations so that if there is any kind of review it will be for the next action plan and we can talk about that through our colleagues and representatives on these different levels of local government about what that means so if we could include that on our forward plan as one of our meetings where we review the independent commission's recommendations that were adopted the implications for us as one of the the areas within that that's okay as a forward thank you very much for that and then beyond that I think what would be really good if you would let us know of some of the issues forward plan for the greater Cambridge partnership and assembly member you let us know these are coming up those are probably more likely if we can do them sort of online sort of a working group kind of meeting unless they're falling at the same time that might have to be a bit more nimble than our meetings at the moment of the time that they can do otherwise we could have sort of in between meetings working group meetings to look at some of the issues we just need to know what's coming up to try and ensure that I find out what's coming up whether it's in the next GCP assembly and board meeting or whether it's the one after that so there's an opportunity for the CIEC meetings which are kind of between those to be able to discuss what is coming up rather than after and I think that's a very good way for us as CIEC because we are here to shape what's the district council but the district council is part of these wider ones and often there's an interdependence there isn't there so it's very good to be able to support you and the council leader on the combined authority as well in those positions thank you, thank you for that anything else I think in terms of the action before we get on to hearing back from yourself Odeon and Siobhan just in general on these there was one I think what I've heard is in terms of planning that we'd include the issue of energy in 2.2.1 in a general way so it's not just buildings and development it would be that energy provision and storage and that underneath somehow within that education outreach there would be that guidance on adaptation in terms of energy efficiency for extensions or how to deal with ventilation of buildings as well in terms of the heat waves I heard those too and the case studies within that as well for the heritage buildings and I didn't hear any sort of comments on the things that I put in that you've included I don't know if there's any disagreement of those but it sounds like those were okay to be included and I think just a recognition from everybody that this is a huge piece of work it's not just a work of one team this is cross departmental and recognising that and that's what you're working on and very much supportive of budgetary implications in terms of ways that you can also help other departments to be taking responsibility because they're drivers of emissions as well and drivers of ways to reduce carbon emissions as a council too so thank you so it's time to hear back from you again or I think do you want to take full burden in terms of I think we've taken on all those comments thank you very much and part of what we're going to be doing is like Siobhan had said based the action plan and where we can those actions will be taken on by the climate and environment team but also we're very conscious that it's not just that team we're also going to be starting a process of making sure that the entire council is indeed going to a call so we're going to be seeing how we can engage other departments as well as much as possible in helping to take forward some of these actions and then also a key component is very much the social information advocacy it's something that we already do that's our members we do very very well we're going to be capturing that a lot more and documenting that as well the advocacy role that we already play so I think those three actions will capture a lot of what we've said today and where we cannot do some actions we'll also document those and begin to make the case for where we need to maybe get some more resources to help us move towards those longer time targets but I think we've gotten very good feedback and discussions on the revisions the action plan today which we're going to take forward Thank you very much so that's good so I think within that advocacy exactly what we've just heard about in terms of with the Greater Cambridge partnership through the assembly members and board members and also the combined authority that would be fitting within that one wouldn't it that would be that kind of advocacy role just to say in terms of the LGA so at national level the local government association so through my role on the LGA through the environment economy housing and transport board as you know I'm on the national climate change task group that's a cross party task group of the leads of all of the different parties in the LGA as members and that's the body that does all of the advocacy with Westminster from the local government point of view on climate change in the net zero strategy that was published by the government before COP26 they did respond to the need for greater coordination between local government and the different sectors like the different departments like at council level in the different ministries how you can have that coordination between local government and those different ministries in a cross-sectoral way there is in July the officer-led net zero forum began now we did have in South Cams Paul Fraynor who was one of on the shared planning service was the climate change lead on net zero in the LGA of the officer-led group it will be very good that officers look at who is there somebody who could be that officer and putting themselves forward for that because now the net zero forum for officers at local government level with the civil service in the different ministries has now had two meetings so as you know that's that sort of advocacy body and the coordination body the net zero strategy said it also should be the leaders so those who shape quality who are the elected members as well in terms of advocacy we've been trying to get that set up as well and that was a more difficult thing politically for the government to sort of create because it was you know for all sorts of reasons the question that I made that has been accepted by the climate change task group and the LGA is that that national climate task group is becomes the net zero forum for the elected members and that is the one that then as the net zero forum for elected members is the one that engages with all of the different ministries so we're looking the next few months that will probably happen so we also have nationally I'll be on that climate net zero forum for elected members with ministers so we will have a a root for advocacy there from south Cambridgeshire which will be quite fantastic I think as well thank you if we look at the forward plan things that we'd like to sort of we've reined back and said okay we won't put them in the action plan for this year but we do think that these are things we'd like to look at because they could potentially be things that we look at in a revised action plan what I've heard so far is the waste resource strategy that's absolutely something that we would that members would like to hear a briefing on the local plan and the climate and environment elements of the quality of life elements of the local plan any other recommendations of things when we say forward plan that could be both formal committee meetings and perhaps we did have that idea of having some informal briefings as well in between committee meetings at time so it could be either of those Siobhan does anybody else have anything that and we had the combined authority and GCP session Cathol Jeff Harvey yes so recognising that we have in terms of resources is limited all time and that sort of reinforces the importance of our green investment strand I suppose because that there's a way that we can accelerate our response to climate change and hopefully at least be cost neutral but hopefully generating the income as well so I think it would be good to sort of you know have a sort of update and a revitalisation of our sort of creative thinking in terms of where we could invest in order to get climate change and generating income I know that we do have Alex on the line because do you want to respond on that one perhaps Brian Williams or a different one thank you so Alex that will be you know very very good to we had to go okay yes both I think maybe perhaps suggest that in the next maybe few weeks if possible that could be an info about briefing session because that investment strategy is now being updated and I think it's very much an area where we will welcome guidance direction assistance from members as you know part of the challenge we've had of the past is that we have very limited room for investment within the council area because of a lack of access to land in most cases that new strategy is now looking to explore opportunities to invest outside of the area subject to the applicable government constraints on investment but I think that's where we do have almost an open book that we could explore all sorts of possibilities so maybe that could be the first session that we have an info about briefing with Sia just to try to explore opportunities that you want us to take forward in that investment strategy and that will be pretty much sooner than later because that strategy is now being refreshed fantastic that's really really good council John Lundford yes and I think think the carbon reduction measures are quite nice and easy to quantify as we said at the beginning the nature, doubling nature is a much fluffier softer concept I would love to have a briefing on what we really mean by it and how we're getting on with it and whether these actually are really going to double nature planting 25 trees or so isn't going to double nature whatever it's a hell of a target doubling nature and we really need to know what it is we mean by it and what we're doing to get there and how will we know what the intermediate targets are so I'd love to have a serious briefing session on that aspect so what I would suggest is that we have a briefing with natural Cambridge certitize we'll see in the action plan part of this is planning policy but also within that as it says in partnership with natural Cambridge and natural England 14 strategic green infrastructure initiatives have been identified and published alongside so it's knowing understanding there's a knowing how they contribute exactly I think and are they doubling nature just those 14 or is that just the start is that all anyway very good and just going back to absolutely I think definitely there's a real interest in contributing to that green investment strategy development some out-of-the-box thinking on that will be great Councillor Brynman just slightly off topic but there's been some discussion about building control and the pressures that will arise out of more stringent controls building standards and particularly in relation to insulation and so on they're already struggling how building control officer do you check the insulation that's already in the cavity of a new build for example well it's impossible I fitted the best insulation I could buy basically there's almost no difference between that I mean maybe show them the invoice but they haven't got time for that so I'm just thinking that there needs to be a recognition of the increased pressure on building control in these environments and if it's difficult in a domestic domestic situation commercial building for example it's even worse I think perhaps we can look at that in one of these cross departments I mean it's a shared service for us as well which adds a slight implication in terms of governance but I imagine that there will be some pressure on them for their resources so I think we should highlight that Thank you So it has been this issue we've talked about adopting the carbon cost by the council and I think what you're bringing on side is really important we should look at what does it mean not just financially but in the burden and practicalities to do it and at the same time I think it's that and those who are having to do it are they able to we're not burdening those who are least able to bear some of these additional things that's kind of the fairness inside of that Yes, thank you chair I'm just wondering given there's been a major change to building regs in June this year in relation to insulation standards etc whether it would be quite nice to have somebody from building control come and explain what those have been although I suppose equally our planning department will be confident in telling us what those changes are but it might be nice to meet the building control people just to get some kind of idea of how they work and you know things like in the development are they checking every house or every 10th one just those kind of questions are really interesting to have somebody who really knows there I think answering them Council Member I'm just going to refer to some of the things in the bioregional report as what they regarded as areas for improvement just thinking about how we might put those into the forward plan as well to try and address some of those so they mention 5 things circular economy, car use, climate justice sustainable food and embodied carbon in new developments obviously those are all quite different but we might be able to work with partners for instance on circular economy and sustainable food and it might be interesting to hear from them about what they're doing and also is there an opportunity for some sort of partnership with them or what do they need that we could possibly offer to kind of get those sort of things started and maybe we should have a session on climate justice as well looking at what we're doing and other areas that we can think about about improving and the other one is embodied carbon in new developments, I think Councillor Harvey has already talked about that Good, so on the sustainable food strategy what you've done is shown how that would fit into 2.6.2 explicitly mentioning that so I think that is good on the circular economy we've got the briefing on the waste resource strategy about the circular economy so I think it's waste resource strategy slash circular economy bring that through thank you very much and then the other we've got the embodied carbon as was talked about and then you've just mentioned the climate justice and so it would be interesting to see that on that one in terms of the climate justice I made the comment and it's been included in the introduction and I think it would be good to have a session on it which is the council is looking at ways to involve young people more and so on the back of that that could be looking at how they get involved in climate and environment issues as well but I would just like us to know what ways are the council considering and how it could be that we're engaging them around climate environment which we know are some of the things that really motivate young people and where they do want to feel agency you know they do want to feel that ability to speak to people and listen to them and do act on what they're saying which is a way of addressing that climate anxiety so now that we've got it in the introduction it sort of makes reference of the council's doing something but can we actually have a session just to say what is being done and is that the right way for doing it for climate environment that's okay I'd like to and forward plan if just that wording around adaptation and how we've fitted in it's going to be really nice that you bring that back to us you know just what you're thinking about how you would phrase that because I think that would be really simple in some ways but neat it would be very nice that we're actually recognising that we do think about mitigation and adaptation and we're already doing things around that and then finally as I mentioned in my email we had a motion that I presented on water quality and sewage in the streams in the rivers and there was the issue there about considering bathing status, the bathing designation of a section of the river camp, only local authorities can apply for that designation so if anybody does it it's up to us to do it if it was to be within the south camps obviously together with partners what I'd like is at a forward plan I think it would be very nice if we invited in for example the camp valley forum is one of the partners and can talk through what that would mean and Anglia and Water what that would mean to then know to take that then to cabinet to sort of say what would it actually mean in terms of officer time community time to do the surveys that are necessary what are the steps of the process can we do it can we fund it that we want to put in as one of the priorities because of just the feasibility of being able to take it through to everybody agree that that's something that we have to stand for Thank you I don't know if anyone's seen the news recently but apparently both Anglia and Water and Affinity had to return vast sums of money to their customers for failing to meet water quality standards it seems to me they would be able to fund some of this work if we talk to them nicely in a timely manner cancer doctor Mike and Cym cancer doctor Tumi Hawkins Thank you very much it was just to mention when you were talking about the circular economy in that one of the policies in the emerging draft local plan is actually policy CC stroke CE which is about reducing waste and supporting the circular economy and it's just to say that yes we will obviously love to have a station where we can work with SEAC you can have a look at what we've done so far and how our planning policy office is actually dealing with that because again that came up and I think we also had input from the Cambridge do not economics action group and a few others to the first proposals we had just to bring that to your attention it's policy CC stroke CE great so there's scope for working together thank you thanks Hawkins so just going back to Councillor Peter Sandford's point there I think it's given that we've got already a packed agenda in terms of our action plan but this is the time now to be acting upon when you just can't wait for it really I agree with you we need to pursue any measures possible to you know and there will be the possibility of you know it's remediation really isn't it so as part of that remediation if you have the bathing designation that means there has to be water quality monitoring that has to eat a quality that is safe for human use which should be just the basics shouldn't it that says it so it means that you actually have a duty of care to residents and everybody who's using them and wanting to live near them that this water is safe and if it's happening there then it will be happening in the other areas it's just that that means that you've got something to hold everyone to account by using that bathing designation of the the bathing designations in the country they are all mostly coastal and only one of them is of safe quality at the moment there are only two which are inland on rivers or streams that have been created by local authorities and both of them have led to improvement in water quality so you know that's a good thing to be so what we can do is from the motion is we can search Angliam Water and the Canberra Valley Forum to see what they would like to are they interested in this which they've indicated they are in interest are they able to provide the resources needed to support the council to do this I think that would be the next action around that and let's have a briefing session in meeting with them on that is that okay Siobhan that would be kind of the next steps thank you that's a pretty full forward plan we've almost got all the meetings for next year anything else no I think as we come the next meeting will be December I think what we can expect is we can expect the council to be on the front line around flooding we can expect it to be around issues where people can't afford to keep their homes warm and so all idea is that what we're doing here is absolutely critical people's quality of life in really really difficult times so I think this action plan is right I think we're in the right direction and I just want to thank all of you as the staff and team for really making this happen thank you everybody thank you