 Exactly. Sorry, I forgot to turn the recording on, so I'm just turning it on. This is the Fellowship of the Link call for Wednesday, January 17th, 2024. Go ahead, Chris. Before we go too far with the trope of barbarians at the gate, you've got to remember by the time Rome fell, the barbarians were Rome. They had integrated so much at the edges and into the center. It was the center that collapsed and lost their way, and then the floodgates kind of opened and then everything collapsed. So don't blame the barbarians necessarily, because it's the fish that stinks from the head, which is what happened in this case. They brought in a new people. They brought in Julius Caesar, who turned it from the thing it was into the thing it shouldn't have been, and that's what killed it. Very interesting. Another small note is that the word Barbarian is kind of marketing for those awful people outside, and a lot of the barbarians were actually smarter cultures that Romans or whoever didn't want any of their people to mingle with. So they were the Barbaroi. Actually, Barbaroi is probably a Greek word, I think, and it goes back further. Yeah. It mimics the sound they thought they were making. It's like, oh, we still do it today. We still have that trope. Similarly with the Catholic Church, most people don't realize the word pagan comes from the word pagani, which means of the countryside. So the people out there are the pagans, and we in the center are the thing. Right. People are called rustic, and that comes from rules, which is countryside. Yeah. A lot of... Well, here, I guess you can go into the reading of cities of country versus, of course, being already confrontational, so perhaps just as two units in a system, but through history. But yeah, in this case, it does seem to me like there is some reason to call this a decor, because of the decor by market forces. Maybe not somebody will mediate it anymore. And it's sort of like a bit like you have the goal of a company for the goal itself, and that yielding a lot of value in the market and so eventually, and then a transition to the market value by itself for itself. So it does feel like corporate identities take over companies, and then they do something like fracking. I mean, to use a metaphor, I guess. You know, like this, they just also rip the companies apart for parts, essentially. Right. And yes, but I recrease that by the time that happens, that happened because of like previous decay, for sure. And yeah. I don't know what you think about Moloch, as well as a metaphor for this. I hear Moloch brought up often, but I don't don't never remember the context well enough to actually comment on it. I've actually been reading a little bit of H.G. Wells lately, but it was the his time travel piece. It was the Eloi and the Morlocks, and the Morlocks. Yep. That's it. That's what it's from. The lived underground in eight. It's the time machine, 1895. Although speaking of books, wasn't our topic for the day Neo Books? Oh, it could be. Not to, not to, you know, Cool. Hijack the shift here, but Oh, I'd be happy, happy to talk about Neo Books. Yeah. So which ones do you have in mind? We started discussing that last time and I think it was, it was nice. Yeah, exactly. I'm happy to talk about mine. I could talk about other projects that are there. Uh, anyone who's interested like, you know, go from there, but Uh, I don't know the Barbary Coast. Interesting. So distractible. Sorry, the Barbary Coast is the Berbers. So the Barbary Pirates were Berber Arabs. Who are, I think, particularly conservative piece of Arab culture of Muslim of the Muslim world. So, so I'm going to hear a Neo Books to see what we discussed previously. In case we want to take up any threads. We have designed for trust. We have, well, here a notion of the great conversation, which I'm not sure whether we framed it as a Neo Book, but I sort of like the idea. And we discussed the exclusion as a way to write these. And yeah, the great ideas again in a different meeting came up. I hear Chris, you share the thread. Yeah. So then we have open letters, which is like when I'm trying to pursue. Yep. Cool. So why don't I just start in the middle, uh, in Medias Res. Uh, and, um, we can find our way to the things we want to talk about. And I think I'll probably repeat some stuff that I think we started with at the end of last call. But that's actually a reasonable overlap. So Neo Books are an attempt to use books as shiny bait. To attract people to the idea that the content of books should be in composable reusable nuggets of, uh, that, that, that have the contained wisdom, insight, whatever ideas that, um, are alive, meaning they, uh, as a wiki document is a community document that might be improved over time. So might these and the book would be a slice through a series of nuggets that roll up, but, but the book would, would specify like it's published on a particular date. So it takes a, a version of, of each nugget on that date, rolls them up, spits them out as an ebook or Kindle, uh, file format book, which means it's then fixed as a snapshot of that moment, which is a good thing, not a bad thing. But all these things, whether it's, uh, you know, uh, great conversations, you know, great books, the Western world or history or the etymology of barbarian or, uh, pagan, uh, all these things could easily be nuggets and then be reused in different ways. Writing a new book presupposes a kind of, uh, a form of rhetoric that I'm still trying to figure out how to explain properly. It borrows a tremendous amount from writing wickily or writing as if you were writing on a wiki because a big inspiration for new books is how wikis work because wikis maintain wikis or social documents, they maintain version control. So you can always roll back and roll forward and that's one way to prevent vandalism or other kinds of obstruction, et cetera, et cetera. But wikis aren't usually trying to write for composability, meaning, uh, one of my problems with wikipedia is that, uh, or with the peer to peer foundations wiki is that the pages are just really, really long. Uh, they, they, they wind up being a long read individually because they're trying to sort of encompass the whole subject. But it turns out that a lot of the things that they contain are subunitable, nugget, nuggetisable, that nuggetization is a, is a word I'm, I'm working with. Like what, what does it mean to think in terms of what is the most functional nugget size? Where, what are the boundaries of nuggets? How do nuggets link to each other and sort of flow together so that they still read continuously? Those are all really important questions as, as I'm sort of trying to compose new books. And then the new book that I'm working on is, um, about design from trust, which is this idea I had back in, I don't know, 2012-ish. And, uh, I'm busy writing kind of an outline, uh, in Obsidian on, uh, GitHub, which is the, the, the massive wiki architecture that I've been using because Pete Kaminsky, uh, who will probably join us in a second, but he said he'd be late. Um, oh, burpers are also barbarians. Michael, interesting. Um, and so, uh, so I'm, uh, composing a Neo book about design from trust, which means I'm writing a bunch of nuggets up about, uh, about this concept of design from trust, which is really fun to do. I'm also trying to point to all the different places where, uh, I have already recorded videos or done talks or whatever else because they fold in as meta material for all these things, uh, in addition. So let me pause there for a second, uh, and see which part of this y'all are interested in and, uh, where to go. And I, I'm, I'm bummed that we're not in Zoom because in Zoom, I find screen sharing incredibly easy and I do it all the time. I'm a little daunted by Jitsie's screen sharing. So I'm going to hold off for a second, but I've got, I've got. I think we could jump as well to try it because so we have the, we will have the ocean for the recording. Um, yes. Well, if you add the meat thing, let's just talk a bit for a bit now. Yeah. So, um, yes. So I will be interested in like seeing how, which nuggets you have so far. Yeah. And yeah, I'm interested in the idea of connectivity and I wonder if you have experimented with things like prompts to LGBT or we still saying, uh, these are three nuggets, please link them. I will place a number of fragments, please, uh, incorporate them into a cohesive whole. So I'm trying to avoid chat GPT at the second at the moment, partly because I think this is the right window. Let me share here. Yeah, good. So are you guys now seeing? Yeah, perfect. Good. So what are tools for thinking? Is that what you're seeing? Yes. Okay. So if I click on this tab, are you now seeing a tab that's basically the introduction to DFT? Yes. Okay. Good. Uh, so DFT part and only that good because I shared just this app. Yeah. Um, and this, uh, so actually this book has a table of contents. Here's the table of contents. This, this is kind of what I mean by the Neo book. Uh, and my hope is that every Neo book has a landing page and then a table of contents page that looks a little bit like this. And I think that once we start to actually publish, uh, Neo books will change this. This will change dramatically, but this is just version one. But here's, uh, here's a wiki page called DFT cover art. Here's, uh, you know, working title. Here's front matter, for example. So if I click on this, uh, this is actually a cut and paste from some resource on the web. I've forgotten exactly where of what should be in front matter. And all these sections are sort of optional, almost all of them are optional, not all of them. Uh, you need a title for a book. You probably need a copyright of some sort, et cetera, et cetera, but you don't have to have a dedication, for example. Uh, so these are, so these will be replaced as I write them with probably, uh, wiki links that point to a paragraph or six that do each of these things that then roll up into the front matter section. So if I go back to the contents, that's what would happen to the, to the front matter here. And then, uh, there's two introductions to this book. One of them is the Neo books introduction and the other one is the DFT introduction, because as I say in the paragraph here, this is a new kind of book, a Neo book. So first I need to explain the Neo book thing and then I need to explain design from trust. So I'm kind of handicapping myself by making this a doubly complicated book to write, but I like this. I'm really excited by it. And if I click on the Neo books intro, this is the page that sort of says the most about this. And then it includes, this is a tiny technical thing, but the Neo books intro includes a, a transclusion of another page called nuggets are really powerful. And in obsidian, this works really well. But, uh, when it publishes out to the web through the, a massive wiki website builder, there's no function yet to include a transcluded page. That's some code that has to still happen. Uh, so I'm trying to figure out how to, how to get there. So do you have. Oh, sorry. Go ahead to this page in the repo. I do. Uh, let me, uh, share that in the chat. This is the thing. I'm going to, I'm now over in my brain, but you can't see me and I not need to find the chat while screen sharing, which I have no idea how to find one. Oh, I think I see it over here. Good. Let me try this. Yeah, that, that does it. Hey, um, hi, Bentley. Uh, we're, we're diving into Neo books. So picking up where we left off at the end of last call. Um, I was wondering, so real quick, yeah, that you have a lot of potential chapters for the Neo book, but the actual books like built state is determined by the table of contents. So, uh, a plug in or extension I would love to have is one that I can point to this page and then say, show me all the objects that are supposed to roll up into this book and then show me this, the status of each of them. Right. So one of the nice things of Scrivener, which is the kind of the most used writer's app, which I don't like at all for reasons I think I've mentioned here before. So I was writing a bunch of different manuscripts in Scrivener and then one day realized that you cannot copy paste a chapter or a segment from one manuscript into another manuscript. They're completely separate objects and copy paste does not work. I'm like, that's dumb because for me, a book is a, is an outline written around nuggets that exist out in the wild. And it's just a playlist like a table of contents that rolls up. That's a book for me now in my head. And this is just my conceit for how that works. So like this becomes sort of your book's playlist, your table of contents is your book's playlist. So the book contents page for DFT is the playlist for DFT. And I still haven't figured out with Pete, how do I indicate on a page when there's a link that's just meant to be a link embedded in text, not to be rolled up into the book? And how do how do we differentiate the links that are meant to be rolled up into the book? Because some of these things actually like are recursive. There will be, you know, there will be a wiki page listed in the table of contents that has a couple embedded wiki pages which are meant to roll into the full flowed text of the book. And those are technical details about metadata that we will hopefully iron out. But yes, this page is meant to be the role of sequence. And in fact, it should be in linear sequence of what we'll turn into a book. And if I forgot, you know, if I've forgotten sections or whatever else, let me know. But you know, this is an amateur version of this. Keep going. And what do you, how do you, you said it should show the status? I assume like finished or not. Right. What, what indicates status on those individual pages right now? So right this minute, absolutely nothing. One hack, one, one slow hack would be to rename the pages with a number and parentheses at the end of the name. And because obsidian is pretty good about mirroring names and making sure that the links still work and all that kind of stuff across pages that refer, that would be kind of interesting. However, at the far end, when it gets published out to the web, I don't want random numbers at the end of page names, because that's going to screw up anything I do in my brain, because I have to do this long run around to actually put pages in my brain. Because as I'm busy writing these nuggets, I'm trying to mirror them in my brain. And then, yeah, and then wherever I have a nugget at the in the metadata for that nugget, another thing we haven't figured out yet, there will be a link back to my brain for that particular nugget, right? Yeah, also, I mean, if you want to work on this in the open, write URLs derived from the file name, you'd end up with non non maintainable URLs. I mean, have you explored like the using the YAML metadata block for storing that sort of thing? A little bit, yes, but I haven't gotten fluent in YAML and I don't know exactly what we're and I don't really want front matter YAML front matter that then makes it really hard to start writing the book. And that's sort of what I've seen is that YAML winds up being at the top of the file. And I don't, there might be an obsidian plugin that lets you show and hide YAML, which would be terrific, but I haven't tried to look for it even. Does that all make sense? Oh, sure. Let me stop sharing mine. I just sort of show you real quick. Let me stop sharing mine. Well, he's pulling that up. You could, in YAML, it's in the wiki gardening space. A lot of people use a little seed emoji and then a little plant emoji and then a big tree emoji to indicate the status. But you can put that in as YAML front matter and then trans clue that into your table of contents to give an indicator at least internally for you where things stand. Cool. Yeah. That's an interesting idea. I've seen that before, but I didn't realize it was a convention. It's a loose, you know, I've seen it on websites that Yeah. So like the latest version of obsidian should give you your YAML as fields like this. And one of the really nice things you can do here is like, you could add, so for example, when we're dealing with stuff that we talk about with the, that's on Flancy and Zagora, I just create a custom metafield to link to it. That's awesome. Some people do it to Diabra. They use the YAML or Orgo mode and they point to Diabra link. And there are conventions where I think I should have a couple of things that are marked like this. Oh no, I didn't want to create it. But let's just take this as an example. Right. So one of the cool things that you can do to help like reduce the work is obsidian has templates. So I can go to my note template and it'll auto create the fields that I have in that template and auto fill them with certain information. Are the templates ready or are they an extension? I believe they're native. So then I can like move this file to... And Pete has joined us. I didn't realize, but he's there now. Cool. Cool. All right. So the nice thing about that is then additionally you can have... So I have a field called is based on, which indicates the original location of something. So you might have a custom field for your brain or you might use is based on, which has to do with like SEO and schema.org. And the other thing that's sort of useful for this is you could do searches based on these fields. You can do tagging in these fields. Though I prefer the... There's a convention amongst obsidian people where they do tags like this and that does work. And that can make it a lot easier. And just to like show you the templates folder is here. And it's just, it is very basic, right? So that might help. I do that a lot. And I also have like a convention for when I'm linking to another thing that I want to include in a site. I usually just have that link as its own file. And then I can link to that file in some other context. I also want to have... We've been talking a little bit here about Pose and Pasi and all those things about where do you publish first and how do you cross-post and all that complicated stuff. So many nuggets that I'm going to write about that I'm going to include in the book might actually be published as articles on Medium or articles on the sub-stack that we've built. Like the Neo Books Intro is meant to be the first sub-stack post or one of the first sub-stack posts. I just haven't finished it and figured that out. Could I show my screen for a bit to see how this looks? Yes. And how do I learn everything you just showed? I'm like all over it. I think that's all just stuff built into Obsidian. So if you do like Obsidian templates and Obsidian... He kind of asked a different question. How do I learn it instead of if I know about it? The answer is RTFM, right? That's an acceptable answer for some people and for some people, no. So another thing, some of that you can learn from YouTube videos, but I don't know. You should have a YouTube series. So that could be a good topic. I guess this applies to everything. You can always go meta, but how we build, how we write the Neo Book using Obsidian or which are the tools we choose, that seems like a very good topic for the first or second Neo Book. But I don't know, Jerry, if you see that as being designed from trust in a preface maybe or maybe that's a separate thing we could be modeling as a project. So the preface, so the first intro, the Neo Books intro is meant to be brief enough to describe what the hell this is and not so long that it distracts people from actually reading a book about design from trust. But because it's a Neo Book, it's meant to draw people into the wiki where all of the rest of that could live as connected links and basically a nice mycelial web of go to town because the part that's excerpted or this rolled into the book needs to be the Goldilocks amount of text to function, to get people to go follow it and go play online. And therefore the book, designed from trust hopefully will lead people to go play in Neo Books and on the wiki and then also to play in the ideas about trust blah blah blah. My recommendation on book number one that you're working on is don't go overboard with Obsidian plugins and all the crazy. Keep it as simple and as close to raw text so that it not only works in Obsidian but if somebody wants to move it to 10 other platforms all the simple text will just work and then once you've seen how it works you can then flavor it to your tool of choice. I love that kind of go from there but that makes it much much more portable than to like build so much Obsidian into it that it's not easily moveable or copyable and redoable in some other space or that will add so much additional metadata that people get lost in the weeds of the metadata rather than the thing itself. Bingo. Yeah does that mean that YAML is safe because the way Obsidian uses and implements YAML would transport easily or does that mean even YAML is dangerous? No I think YAML is like at this point a pretty established convention. Peter noted that Massif with he supports it almost anything that lets you edit markdown is going to support it and almost anything that renders markdown is going to look at it or expect that you leverage something that looks at it. Right and potentially just keep it from the view by default and like it's because it's a standard it's easy to say if you are going to have a print view for example like to assemble like the chapters into a real sequence you can just keep the YAML. YAML front matter is is an example of something where the where the convention as developed ended up being it degrades pretty gracefully so if you give a mark a markdown file with YAML front matter to a YAML parser that doesn't know anything about markdown it can see that the first part is a document and then the punctuation that gets used for delimiting the YAML front matter is standard lines in markdown so you can tell even a naive markdown parser will offset or set off that line. So a thing that I always thought that I wanted to do with Massif Wiki and now I realize I should do it with other people is is is kind of have a markdown compliance level so you know if markdown zero is anybody can read it and nobody will be confused and then something with the YAML front matter is kind of like a two or two dot five or something like that where it's like nobody will break if they see it but some of the you know some civilian humans might be confused by that YAML front matter but nothing will break and then there's really fancy stuff that you can do it on obsidian that nobody else is going to ever be able to render and that's maybe like a five or something like that but it would be fun to have that kind of a compliance level or or standardization slash complexity levels you know where please write in markdown one one dot five level compliance or you know go ahead and use four because we're all using obsidian or whatever yes plus one to that Peter I think that's crucial and I'm not aware of many like this because it's a quite it's sort of like a protocol of like you know defining these layers for the protocol and so I wrote about of course like I name it I were a protocol my take on this but the idea is like precisely to just be explicit about which protocol we use in this sense and so one quick just comment on the levels the wiki link as an anchor link or semantic link is not in markdown actually so that's sort of like an extension to markdown as well that I think we are already using because of obsidian but I think it's a it's not considered core markdown so maybe it's also like at the level of YAML like something that is an extension to common mark but I'm not sure whether it should be a double square brackets I think they're actually originally from Github's wiki so it has been pretty well you know it's but you're totally right it's also so markdown zero actually doesn't even have wiki links in it right and then you know zero dot five or one or one dot five or something is where you can start to do wiki links so let me just like I was called that a markdown levels or like attention levels mm-hmm so I wanted to show quickly how um what you're doing um you're interested what what you're doing Jerry looks like um in the hour please as it is now so this is a repo I think you're using ogm for this for yeah you were in the right place I noticed what I did infer what you were doing yeah this is link agorai slash a user ogm if you want to follow along so what it does by default is just show the readme there's one and then just stuff just with the content of repo as parsed and here we will show what we understood from the repo and maybe there's files that we are here because the format is not supported or you know we haven't parsed them right and yeah so this is just I mean have a repository type massive wiki is like a fake massive wiki support because it just says it's massive wiki but it doesn't do anything with it in particular but it's nice to I thought it was nice just to give exposure on you know how the person right in the garden is actually doing it or using it that's great so here we also massive wiki obsidian and you have 307 resources and these are the latest ones the agora has seen as edited I don't know if it's up to date hopefully it is it looks pretty good yeah yeah so um so here we have examples of this and from trust and so on I don't know if you have any pages that have this yamel or obsidian a convention you're using about you know transcription I have not added I have not yet added any yamel that I that I am aware of the only thing I've done is the bankmark in front of a link which which transcludes other pages into the current page in obsidian so I've done that interesting do you have an example right pardon sorry I think we both had the same question which was do you have an example of what that looks like yeah because that's interesting to me because the only thing that I could think of a bang link doing is embedding an image but it also does that for pages same exact method embeds pages yeah you ever encountered that convention let me show you maybe a obsidian unique one yeah it's it's an obsidian thing and it's an extension it's an obvious extension right embed an image embed a link basically um I think it gets fairly well used in in the obsidian community yeah I mean I think it will be easy even to implement that in the agora because it already has transclusion and it supports or see an image this actually but in the same convention but so it should be we we could add we could merge the two it shouldn't be too much work actually so if you have an example um Jerry later as well of like a page that already has transclusion of articles I could see how it looks and fix it um you know good and Pete is is this therefore one of those obsidian only things that we should maybe avoid or is there a more general purpose way of doing it I I it's it's such an obvious extension and you know theoretically reasonably straightforward to implement um I I think it's a good extension I would yeah I think it's it's quite a idiomatic because of how um the consistent it is with the with the transclusion convention yeah I I don't know if I would say the same thing if obsidian hadn't already implemented it but now that that you know one of the one of the main markdown editors has implemented it and and because it's a straightforward you know syntax extension I would definitely go for it though one thing I think may not be super consistent across things because tiddly wiki does something like that as well um but it's do you do you transclude the title or not the title or is the title there yeah which means the title either shows up twice in the transcluded thing or and not at all and by the way we're dangerously close to falling into our arms explorations into htmx that's good uh yeah yeah which is interesting isn't it yes it is interesting I mean right like the idea there is you don't like the transclusion becomes page navigation because I think it's an interesting idea maybe it's not desirable for every case yeah and Pete before you got on the call I was mentioning that you and I had talked about but not resolved how do we mark how does the writer the author of a new book mark the difference between a link to that just should be an embedded link in flowing text versus a link that should be rolled up and transcluded into the text of the book so I think that's still a thing to figure out yeah that so uh the other thing that works with that right is like thinking about like conventions and how to include it once in if you don't mind I'll do a quick uh share here yeah right so like to give you some context and I think that this is pretty easily adaptable though obviously some some programs they block crawling but uh let's just share screen too yeah okay right so like the context center project sort of does that where the idea is the actual like file here and like this this is the convention I came up with but it doesn't need to work this way right the convention is a bare link right so you're not putting it you're not linking it to anything other than you're just putting the link into your document um and what does that on build step it creates these cards and right now what it'll do is if it'll attempt to submit them to the web archive and if it succeeds it includes a link to the web archive version of that page but if it does not succeed it will create a copy of the page's text not this comes with like all of the appropriate seo to designate that like this is not the original page the original page is somewhere else that's where it is that's the way like yeah yeah and it's fairly straightforward i'm working on making it even more straightforward and making the actual crawling process a little more immune to being blocked but um like I really like this pattern in particular this is a 11 t actually it's not even an 11 t plugin it's a markdown plugin um that you can style the output however you want and I have an 11 t plugin that then styles the output um have you looked at the omb maybe there's like uh maybe you know one thing about thinking out for translation is well if a site's okay we need transcluded and or we can use omb to negotiate how to do that um then maybe it's okay to like save a copy as well like the ombed like protocol like check to see if I'm allowed to ombed right right so that that would be you know yeah I mean that's one way of seeking consent but if otherwise of course I think we can say if if a user wants to save it it's fine to save it I think that's also okay yeah my excuse is this is an archive so I'm going to save everything and I don't really care about what the preference is um right like if I'm including it there then it's presumably I believe it's important enough to archive if it's important enough to archive I think it's important enough to archive and so the fact that you've got a robots.txt file or whatever is irrelevant to me I'm gonna negotiate around it I think that's fair like trust the user I'm having a I'm having a dilemma which is I was going to join a call I'd like to listen to at the top of the hour I don't know who can hang after the top of the hour or not it took us a while to get assembled here and this is a hot discussion that's clearly interesting to me so I'm not sure what we should do if we if there's a way to suspend animation here and resume next week that would be cool let's do it should we do that yeah because suspension for the one and also yeah exactly should we put that in the ammo and then that'll also give us all a chance now that we're warming up the subject a bit more to come back in with different ideas or whatever we trip across in the intervening week and Jerry you sent me a link to uh play with uh play with translation let me let me let me screen share right now from obsidian uh let me screen share my obsidian right now because I can show you that as we squeak as we live and breathe so I happen to know that the neobooks introduction has the only one of those that I've done uh so if I actually go to the page and then I come down here how do neobooks work excellent so here you see the the sort of thing that looks like a quotation here's the transclusion in action it looks a lot like how you handle it flancier in the agor like it looks very similar physically on the page and you'll notice it's duplicating the title which is yeah just a hiccup but that's what that's all I'm doing I mean here how it could look here's how it looks in the agor I mean it's just like a broken image but I'm looking forward to fixing that and how it how it will look um would be essentially like uh it does a lot of flancier if it works so I know at one convention I use in um in some you know it's not the actual uh the right now but the one convention I use is having an an allow a list of links where if it finds a link it will just conclude it so uh essentially um you know if you save dogs the google or a massive wiki or that will essentially be transcluded just by default um and it will look um like this I mean it's not maybe the best oh okay I have to sign it all but if not you will see it essentially it's just like an eye frame but anyway I can I can fix it and show you next week how it could look particularly essentially sounds awesome any other thoughts or questions right now before we roll up this call we're good then yeah um thank you this way I did I when we started and I was it was just me and flancian's other machine holding holding the the jitsie open I was like well okay I guess nothing's gonna come of this call yeah it was so exciting in the end like so many people here yeah I agree it was like uh great thank you okay let's record the contact next week neo book designed from trust translation perfect thank you awesome see you then so much so you see some of you in in in the meantime and I'm gonna turn off the recording and head over to the other call awesome I dropped to another call too see you see you next week