 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to our podcast from the Kama Sutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always, we have with us Dr. Anrita Madan-Bihel. Anrita, as you know, is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kama Sutra has to give. Welcome, Anrita. Thank you, Seema, and welcome to our podcast group. So, Anrita, today's question, it's a question actually that's shown up a lot in my inbox in the last few months, but I'm bringing this one to you today. I'm going to read out one that's come in most recently. The basic question is still the same, but I'm actually bringing it to you today because I feel a little bit sort of emotionally connected to this particular question. I feel that it's not just as simple as it seems. It's one of these things that come up, it's from a woman, and it's about a woman who's writing to us saying that her husband has been visiting a sex worker. And as I said, I'm going to read out the question to you, I'm going to tell you what the question says, but to me, I think as she says that there's a certain level of discomfort emotionally and mentally that goes with it, which I wish to address with you today. So basically, the question is that she says that her husband overlocked down decided to visit a sex worker, and obviously he didn't tell her about it, but later on when it came up when it was discovered, and she approached him about it, he said, well, it was a need and he had to do this. And she says that she's accepted that it was a need, fair enough men have needs, but that emotionally she's finding it really hard to deal with. And I can totally resonate, I can totally sympathize with this. And I think I'd like to address it from this point today. Yeah, so this is a really interesting question because I think it's kept in a category in some ways where it's not an affair, you know, a fair like this whole idea, the myth that all affairs, you know, have to do with an emotional side and this is just physical and physical, you know, being cheating physically is okay, but emotionally is problematic and it's been made out that way. So while I'm not sure I buy this whole idea of it's a need, because I think a lot of patriarchy and permissions are based on this idea. If you look at, oh, it's okay to boys to have premarital sex because it's a need, or, you know, women are forced to provide sex within marriage because it's a male need, or it's okay for a man to remarry because he has needs. Whereas it's not okay for a widowed woman to remarry because, you know, she doesn't have sexual needs. So there are, I think a lot happens under this pretext of it's a male need and I'm not, I'm not saying sexual choices or having sex is not a need, but I think it's equally for both genders. I don't think it's more for one versus the other. And more than that, I think, you know, everybody finds ways to compromise with the need, men and women. So this idea that you were forced to do something, it was a choice you made and that choice is okay, but this idea that you were forced into something because it's a need. I find it a little bit problematic, you know, so as and I know I'm having this immediate reaction, but I do have a reaction to this thing. And, you know, same way the men are having this big thing about no fap and we can hold ourselves back and, you know, it is the best thing to ever do is to not masturbate. And then, you know, we can't have it still that it's a male need. So it just, you can't have it both ways because as you and I both know, the last one that we did on semen retention and male masturbation, from questions that we've been getting from men. And then the amount of arguments and complaints that we got from men saying, you're, you know, you're not qualified to talk about this, we are men, we are the ones with the semen, you're not even men, you don't have semen, how dare you talk about it. And how a lot of them said that we were wrong, you and Tanea, when you were saying from a medical perspective even, that it's probably a good thing to do that we were wrong in saying that it was okay to masturbate that it is much better and more important to absolutely hold it all back. And then to have the same sort of gender saying, well, I need to go off and have sex with sex worker because it's a need. And yeah, so it doesn't work both ways. Yeah. And so just because we're mentioning that video, I was surprised by the aggression that it carried with it. And so it's just something I think just to note and reflect on that the comments were, but you know, we don't want this video to become about that. And that's not the point. But I think if we look at it from the woman's perspective, what I would like to say, like, that's my reaction to this, it's a need. But, but I do think that it's an interesting one to discuss because I think in general within partnerships, what gets discussed is that I, people don't consider it cheating if they've gone to sex workers, or if I make it more gentler going to strip clubs, right? Like that is so acceptable and men going for, you know, boy strip and it's absolutely fine to have strippers there or, you know, plus there. So there is this acceptability. And I remember telling you that I, there is this acceptability within women that it's okay for their partners to visit strip clubs or engage in things or if there's a sex worker involved because it's physical and it, you know, it's not the same thing. It's not the same thing as having an affair. For me, I think it's individual to individual if within a partnership, that's what you've discussed and that's what you've decided that's fine. However, if in their partnership, you feel that's still breaking a contract, you know, the contract that you made with your partner was that of fidelity when it comes to emotionally, physically and sexually, then it is still a break. It doesn't matter that the man paid for it. It was a sex worker versus a neighbor, you know, that it doesn't change it. It still breaks the contract. So as a woman, you have every right that if you feel like that trust has been broken or that there's cheating in the relationship, because that contract was broken for you. So I also find it interesting because she says that it's, you know, he kind of washed his hands off it. He got really, you know, cross and said, take care. It was a need, you know, I had to do it and she's had to accept it. And she has accepted it. But obviously, it doesn't wipe itself out of your head just because somebody has said, Yeah, it's a need. And, you know, that's it in the story. Emotionally, you're still kind of stuck with the leftovers of that. It does leave a terrible, terrible feeling inside you. And I find that, you know, so it's okay for him to have a need and say, well, it was a physical need and I've gotten it over out of my system. But her need is emotional. She needs to be able to get it out of her system. She needs to be able to talk it through. She's not being able to do that. Because her needs are not being met. And I just think that's really unfair. And I think that's what's actually making me quite upset about this question. Or about the situation is that, you know, her needs are not being met. Her need is simply that she does need to talk about it. I mean, frankly, I think any of us, if we were in that situation, we would get angry. I don't think any of us in that calm that you'd be able to say, Okay, I understand and walk away. You do need to talk about it to some extent. But absolutely, that's being considered nagging. She's not being allowed to talk about it. So what next, what do you do to get past it? Yeah, well, two things I'm thinking about. One, I think it's absolutely fair to have a conversation and feel like, you know, it has impacted you. I'll come back to this point. But the other part that we have to think about, and people might think, I'm going extreme on this. But what we have seen when we do HIV AIDS research is that a lot of times in UK, what we saw was that in some groups, women were testing more positive than gay men, you know, married women, and they would come and they would be really surprised. And they would be like, Oh, but I'm in a monogamous relationship. The only sex I'm having is with my husband. What we later found out is that in some cultures, and a lot of times what happened is that it would be permissible for men to go have sex for leisure. Now that could be with another man, or it could be with other women, like a sex worker. And so what women thought was a monogamous relationship, men were having sex outside the marriage, and then coming back and having sex with the wives and unprotected sex, because in their head, it's a monogamous relationship. And they were passing on HIV to it. Similarly, if we look at the Indian spread of HIV as well, it was one of the large groups that they worked with initially when it started was the truck drivers, because the truck drivers would go, you know, spot on spot, and then meet sex workers and have sex on their journey and then come back and give it to their wives. Once again, they've worked a lot with the sex workers on this route to start giving them condoms. So it is, I don't think it's an, you know, it's being made out as if it's an irrational emotional reaction to somebody cheating. It has an impact on a woman's health. You know, there are STIs, there are other problems that she can now get from a partner. So one disclosing is important because, you know, it impacts her body. And true adequate protection or testing needs to happen. So it is not as simple as breaking a contract emotionally. It does have impact on a woman's body and woman's health. Yeah, so I think that a lot of guys, even if they decide, okay, we slipped, we did it, they need to keep this in mind that they need to actually go and get themselves tested. Even if they think nothing has happened, even from kissing, you can actually pick up a certain number of transmitted diseases. And so if you have been with a sex worker, because let's face it, by their very profession, they have been with other people. That is what they do. They're being really good about testing themselves. Like so much education has happened. I don't know where this is, but obviously they are at a high risk group. And that is why so much work has happened to constantly test them and think, and well, I'm just thinking you did it in COVID times. So like, are you like really keeping your life safe by like, you know, why would you do this in COVID times? But anyway, not just that, I was just thinking he did it during the lockdown. So you know, where, where are the, where are the boundaries? Is it okay to say, well, I have needs and hence lockdown and COVID does not stand in the way of fulfilling my needs. I mean, what are the, where are the boundaries here? Absolutely. I think the point you're making about the boundaries is such an important one. And because I'm not saying that this is off limit, or it does not happen in relationships, there are a lot of partnerships now, for whatever reason, we keep speaking about sexual preferences and everything that might say, okay, you can have sex outside of marriage or the relationship. I want to hear all about it or it's off limits. You can do it, but don't come and tell me about it. But it's open, you know, they're open relationships. We know that people say that they want to be in open marriages and things like this. So there are lots of options. The main point here is like you say is the boundaries. What boundaries do you form as a couple, as a partnership? What do you say are the boundaries of a relationship? And if those boundaries are broken, it doesn't matter if it's with the sex worker, a stranger or a person, you know, the fact of the matter is that it feels like it's a violation of what was decided or what was the sanctity of the relationship. And once that's broken, then it is the responsibility of both partners and more so the partner who broke it to build that trust back. And for that, you need to work on the relationship because something is broken and needs to be mended. Yeah, and there is like you started off by saying there's a strange kind of thinking pattern. And I don't know where the story or where this narrative has come from that if it is just a one night stand or if you're not emotionally involved, then it's no problem. Then it's fine to do whatever. It's only a problem if it is an affair or it's more than once with the same person, or the there's an emotional attachment with the other person. Why does this narrative suddenly exist? And why is it okay for a woman to have to deal with her partner, her husband going off to have a one night stand and that's absolutely okay, but because I'm just thinking if it was the other way around, if the woman said, well, you know what, you're really bad in bed. And I just really needed one good serious sexual experience, you know, sort of like my once a year thing. And I went off and did that. Can you just see what the reaction would be to that? Yeah. And so of course, there's a gender disparity. I just want to say that I do think that affairs happen on both ends, like I think women have affairs as well. But yes, they have to I guess, because I've seen as when have the affairs with yeah. So yeah. Yeah. And like, but that is seen as though she's breaking a house or whatever. It's not seen as oh, I had sexual needs or I had a one night affair or something like that. But I do, you know, it comes down to I've heard so many friends say this actually to me that, you know, if he has an affair or if he has a one night stand, I would be broken, but am I going to leave him or I'm going to end the marriage over it? Like realistically, is that going to happen? I don't think so. So, you know, we'll have to figure it out. And this permissibility in some ways that I'm not going to leave a marriage, you know, over a one night stand. So but I think there's a problem in this permissibility because somewhere you've decided it's okay for somebody to break your trust or break the boundaries, you know, and it's not like if there is a contract, then it's not okay for somebody to do it. You can pre decide that you want to be an open relationship. That's fine. And you can mend a relationship. I'm not saying everybody needs to walk out of a relationship because an affair has happened. You can work on it. But I'm just saying a pre decision about it's okay, you know, it's okay. I think kind of that permissibility is problematic to me. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And yes, I think it's something that we've all got used to hearing and saying that it can happen. It does happen. And one should treat it with a certain level of perspective. So, you know, keeping a sort of functional sense of perspective to it that it shouldn't be considered the end of the world. And yes, you're right. It's it, you know, maybe we've kind of given ourselves permissibility on one side. It's not as if it's the same rule applying for the other gender as well. So yeah, it is on one side. And you're right. Maybe we've fallen into a sort of habit. So either it becomes a two way street or this permission is not okay without permission. If that makes sense that, you know, if you're going to do something like this, it needs to be agreed upon in a certain level of, I don't know, co commitment is required. I'm just, I kind of lost. I have to say that this one came in and I've been thinking literally about how this woman would have felt the emotions that go into it, the upheaval it causes the the level of insecurity that it causes inside you. And it's something that you're never allowed to voice. And I say this particularly, and this is why I was so keen to discuss this with you, because you cannot go back to your husband who's already said, he can't, I know, I guess any current or I've said it, I won't do it again. Why are you going on and on at me about it? So she's not allowed to discuss it with him. If she ever goes to a friend, let's face it, most friends are, you know, we are all average people. And unless you become a therapist, you don't know how to advise the other person. So with most friends, the reaction is either it's okay, men have needs, you have to deal with it, or he's a bastard, leave him. You know, which friend do you have, do you know which average person do you know who'd be able to sort of really think deeply into the situation, come up with just the right level of advice. So really, this woman is left very, very alone. Yes. And for me, that thing that we were talking about permission and to your point that you were making right now, is this that somewhere we're giving permission that there will be an emotional upheaval and that your heart is broken and you have to deal with the law, you know, the loss of a relationship a lot. And when I say a loss of a relationship, I don't mean the relationship is ending. If you had an idea of a relationship, if you believed you have this loving committed partner or husband, and if that idea is now broken. So now you have to live with this new idea of yes, this man loves me and yes, he's a committed partner. But there's a chance that he's sleeping with somebody else, even if it's a sex worker, you have to live with that, you know, that idea having broken that dream having broken. And that's a loss. And there's a grieving process with it. And there's a sadness to it. And like you're saying, there is a fear added to it, the anxiety, the fear, the next time he goes for a business trip, what is he doing right now, the paranoia that comes with it. And then, you know, how you're labeled and how do you stay sane every time that your partner is going on a business trip? How do you not get jealous or possessive or call him at night to check on him? It's difficult. It's not an easy thing to do. And that's why I'm saying, both ways you have to communicate and mend the relationship. Otherwise, it is a cracked relationship will just keep having issues, you know, you can imagine a woman then calling every business trip. Where are you now? Who are you with now and calling and checking? And that's going to have a long term effect on the relationship once again. Can I also say that actually, I see it happening in the other direction as well? Because if you have a man who thinks that it's okay to do this, the next time his wife is out, he is going to be thinking, maybe she's doing the same thing because, you know, your own behavior is what impacts your thinking process. It's what you see in your side that you think other people are doing. It's a very natural sort of thing. You judge other people by your own behavior, your own thought processes. Well, when you break a rule of a relationship, you provide yourself with some rationality, right? Like it's okay, it's one night, I have needs. These are all you're making sense of something because you're breaking a rule. And once you, you know, find an excuse for yourself that excuse holds true for the other person as well, right? So I can see how, yes, it can be. So I do agree with you that I think it can cause seeds of problems. The only thing is that I do think sometimes men believe that it's not breaking rules when you're going to a sex worker. Like I think those problems are when they're having an affair, but many times going to a sex worker and, you know, I'm not saying they're not male sex workers and I'm not saying women don't go to sex workers, but that is less heard of than men going to sex workers, you know. So it's that permissible, but affairs are a problem and women in return might have affairs, you know, when they feel a void in the relationship, they might go for affairs and then they are judged differently to men because men were having sex with sex workers and women were having affairs. And that gets tricky as well. Now it's a real issue, I think, and it's not something that's going away very quickly. So I guess my question to you to finish this is not so much what is the advice for the two of them? I mean like how are they going to get past this in the way of how are they going to fix this? Because I don't think that I think that that is something that we would normally be giving advice to the man in the relationship equally. And I, in most cases, I can't see the advice being heard by both people. I guess my question would be rather, how do we help the woman get past this? I mean how do we help her to get past this emotional issue in her mind? I think it needs to come, one, I think firstly it's okay to grieve and it's okay to feel sad and it's okay to feel like you've been wronged rather than accepting it saying, oh it's a male need and just lump it and deal with it. So it's one, it's okay to feel angry and upset and have a grieving process because there has been a loss, you know, thing. So one, that like and give yourself space and time. It's okay to express to your partner how you're feeling rather than, you know, say why will I ruin all the rest over this? I think it's going to impact your relationship. So try communicating, try expressing to your partner that something needs to be mended now because there's been a crack in the relationship and both people need to work on it. So, you know, hopefully you are able to reach your partner to have that, you know, that communication is required, that mending is required. Express how you're feeling, it might impact your sex life. Express saying this is how I am and this is where I'm feeling. Don't be apologetic about your reaction or feel like, oh my god, I'm so sorry but this is how I'm feeling sexually now or I don't feel like having sex with you or the idea of you being with other women comes and everything. And I'm also and there's no way to prevent this. I don't, if that's how you're feeling go for it and do it but sometimes the image becomes of this hysterical woman and once again then it comes out as oh she's an irrational hysterical woman which I think is the image that society imposes or others impose to get out of it. So I don't want to but I'm just saying that there are more, you know, you can do this in a mature fashion with your partner, with you having like coming from an empowered place where you have every right to do this rather than coming from a completely broken victim place where you have no choices. There is a choice you're making, you're making a choice to stay in this marriage. It's fine to make that choice but come from a place of knowing that you made this choice for whatever rational reasons that you decided to and it's a choice you've made and he needs to be thankful that you that's the choice you made. So I would say try finding the power within you rather than being apologetic or thankful to your partner, you know, reverse it in some ways. So yeah, those are some of my thoughts. I think that's really good advice and I hear you when you say that it's got to come from point of empowerment but I also think today I'm almost 60 and having been through all of these years of reacting, you know, at a certain age when you're younger you react a certain way. When you're upset even to today we would react in a specific manner and it's only in sort of hindsight or in retrospect or in years to come that you find that inner calm or that inner strength which you can sort of, you know, react in the right way as you said because unfortunately you are 100% correct that if a woman who's had to deal with this reacts in the way that is her natural reaction which is for most of us she will be seen or labeled as the hysterical one as this woman or for goodness sakes, you know, she doesn't trust him and she's the one who's going to be putting up with all of the bobs and the inner end and all the nasty little cracks and remarks from people rather than him and she's actually going to be the one being helped to fault rather than him having brought her to this and I just think that it's not always easy to be calm about this especially when you're reacting to it and I think I've always said that at points like this you need a little tribe around you you need at least a couple of people who you can who you can confide in who will give you their shoulder and support you through this so you can find your strength and sorry if there's a lot of noise at the same time Anrita there's a helicopter going overhead. I can't hear it but what I want to say to you is and I was talking to somebody about this I think we need to react as authentically as we are feeling what we need to do is own that reaction and not internalize this label if we are going crazy then you're going crazy because this is something worth going crazy for like you know if you're like being you know if you're feeling like paranoid if you're feeling anxious if you're like constantly checking where it is and everything that's a normal reaction what I'm saying is if that's how you're feeling that's how you're feeling don't let it harm you and don't internalize these you know have that tribe that's saying this is normal I get it why you need to check his phone 20,000 times or you need to call him 20,000 times rather than being surrounded by people saying you're being hysterical now like why are you behaving like that you will distance him more at this time or whatever you know whatever advice you get what I'm saying is respond what internally you're feeling respond that way it is normal but have a tribe that is you know supporting you and saying okay this feels normal but if it's going on for two months and three months and you know there are things that are moved in the relationship that they can come in and say to you like you know like hold back now I think so have that positive tribe around you who can help you see things better in some way you know Anvita you and I have been talking for a long time about opening a sort of chat room podcast thing for women only and where women can come together and literally we can discuss all of these things that come up you know some of it is just merely emotional and it's somebody that sometimes you just need an answer even to that and I think maybe the time has come we need to get on and stop that very very soon and so yes for everybody listening out there look out we are actually coming up with this new podcast which will be entirely women-orientated answering all the little emotional mental physical sexual questions that women send into us because I feel that we feel that there isn't enough space given to women's questions generally but to come back to this I guess we want to finish by saying that we totally understand that you feel emotionally and mentally really really distressed we understand that it's not something that you can take to your partner and get him to acknowledge what it what it's doing to you and that you need time to get over it it's not something that's going to disappear overnight because well I said okay I won't do it again I said I'm sorry it won't happen again why the hell are you going on thinking about it we understand that it doesn't work like that I think any man will also understand if he was on the receiving end of it that it doesn't work like that this is just a defensive reaction from most people that I've said I'm sorry why are you going on we also believe that you have every right to have your reactions your expressions the way that you wish to have them don't as Anvita just said don't internalize it don't say oh my god I shouldn't be behaving like this even though I really feel like behaving like this but I shouldn't be I shouldn't be because this is going to impact your mental health otherwise so go ahead and own your reaction and this is the point Anvita has been trying to make very very strongly if you want to come out of this come out of this stronger karma own your reaction give yourself the permission and the power to react the way that you want to don't come to it from a victim's point of view saying I can't do anything about it I have to put up with this but I feel like I feel like crying about it I feel like saying something about it but I can't I can't I can't acknowledge that you want to do this and say I want to do this and that literally empowers you just that one little decision say I'm doing this because I want to rather than because I have to and I think between us we feel that this is the way forward for you emotionally because your husband's behavior can't necessarily be controlled and more than likely if he said to you that he's not going to do it again he probably won't it probably was a one-off it probably was just something slipped lockdown has been extraordinarily hard on all of us we all reacted in different ways it's had a really weird impact on all of us so more than likely it won't happen again but give yourself the permission to be upset absolutely I just feel like it's not it many times you know we are told more and more that we should just accept it it's normal it's it's not a big deal for men to go to sex workers or I said like it is a gentler form it's like very normal for men to go for to strip clubs and I've heard a lot of women say oh I go to strip clubs with him and that's fine you know it's okay to go to strip clubs it's okay if you want to go to strip club with them I'm not saying that there's anything wrong but if you are not comfortable and you don't like the idea it's okay to express that that you don't like the idea and you're not okay with your partner going to it it's fine and then you can have a discussion about it so don't feel you just have to accept it because that's the message given to you thank you Anvita I hope that everybody listening in did get a lot out of this I have to say that it's helped me a lot Anvita thank you for this particular conversation because this question was really upsetting me it really was bothering me emotionally thinking of what this girl is going through so not just her as I said this has been one of those strange questions that's come in a lot over recent months so I really hope that this is going to help a lot of people out there in terms of all of your other questions your worries your concerns we know that there are so many times that there's nobody else you can turn to you can come to us I am on info.seema.anand.gmail.com we understand that also there's a lot of questions that come in and we want you to understand that we can't always get to your question or respond to your problem immediately sometimes it has to go on a list which is trust me a very long one because there's a lot of questions that come into us but we are over here for you and we do try our best as far as possible on the other hand if you feel that just this generic answer is not enough for you and you need deeper consultation you need therapy you can always approach Anvita who is on anvita.medan behel at gmail.com and the spellings are down below so we look forward to hearing from you in the meantime do please stay safe and we will see you again very soon see you soon