 Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in to another episode of The Carb Strongcast. I'm really excited to share this episode with you, but at the same time a little bit disappointed. A volunteer of mine lost the audio for this podcast and I was very upset about that. James Aspie and I are very good friends and we are rarely in the same country together. Although we lost the podcast audio, we didn't lose the video and there was some microphones on the cameras that are not the best audio, but they captured what we said. Now, for me, I have an expectation of quality for my content and it's disappointing in a way to upload this. But I do believe that the conversation was valuable and if you don't mind the audio being a bit shabby and you still want to listen to what was said, then please do tune into this podcast. But once again, I apologize for the bad audio. I thought I'd upload it anyway because I believe you guys will get some value from this. And again, the next one will be better audio quality. I really love James. We had a really good emotionally deep and thoughtful conversation. And thank you again for your support. Very disappointed, but at the same time, it was still a great convo. So I hope you enjoy. Thanks a lot, guys. Show me a better way to reduce suffering on this planet at this magnitude to someone changing the diet, someone changing instead of cow's milk to get soil, rice, almond or coconut milk, having beans or tofu or tampons that have meat. That is so simple. Show me an easier way to save so many lives to reduce so much suffering. There isn't one. Hi, here we are, James Aspie. So my brother, this is the car strong cast. I just started it the other day. Sort of, yeah, about time. Now, I just wanted to get this done because I thought we might there might be a little bit of an innings between seeing each other again. So I wanted to have more of a long form conversation with you and see where you're at, see where your mind sets out, see what your focus is at the moment. Absolutely, brother. So we could talk about where you come from, where you're at, like, but I think most people probably know maybe a brief overview. I was someone who never cared about important issues really, because I didn't have any effect in my life personally. I got cancer. I started caring a little more about the suffering of others and become a personal trainer, trying to help where I could. I worked on a cruise ship. Somebody told me eating animals is bad karma. I never cared about animals. So it wasn't really about them. But I did choose to start making different choices because I wanted better karma if that was even a thing that I didn't necessarily believe in. That led me to learning that we can be so much healthier and thrive and reduce our chances of so many diseases on a plant-based diet. And then I looked into the violence that's behind every single animal product and realized that was completely out of alignment with the peaceful, compassionate, good person that I was raised to be and strived to be. And so I knew I needed to become vegan. I on the same day I finally went vegan after about a year of being vegetarian and trying to figure it out to see if there's any reason not to be vegan. I did a year on the Valve Silence. I spoke for the first time on a morning TV show. The Valve Silence was to raise awareness for animals. I blogged the whole time and raised awareness about the things I learned. When I spoke for the first time, that interview was seen by over 10 million people as a very carefully thought-through animal rights message, a plea to the world to align their actions with their values and leave violence off the menu. We can live in such a better way. And since then I've traveled the world giving probably, I think it's close to 400 speeches now, all for free. Attending events, trying to rally up the troops, man, and just inspire non-vegans to be vegan and vegans to become active. You were with me one time and we did a 25-hour tattoo session to raise money for charity. And yeah, just basically trying to put content out most days, if not every day to light up the world, man, just to shed light on this atrocity and to show people how easy and how much better life can be when we all just switch to a plant-based diet and choose vegan products. And yeah, that's what I'm all about, man. That's what I'm trying to do. And yeah, I'm loving it. People, someone was like, I feel so sorry for you. You get so much hate and it's a tough job you've got. And obviously there's that part of it, but could not feel more grateful to be contributing to such an important and revolutionised the world. So it's such a positive way. I'm so grateful to have a part in that and a part in people's journeys. And it's such a great thing to be a part of. Seems like you've got a really good perspective. Let's talk about perspective and let's talk about, like, when you were diagnosed with cancer, like, obviously you could probably think, oh my God, like, I could die here. Like, what does that type of perspective do to you, the way you perceive the world and the way you perceive life and gratitude? And how does that perceive, then you look at other people who are suffering or other animals that are suffering. I'm trying to get into the psychology, what that changes about someone. I think that perspective is crucial in regards to your state of happiness and your health as well, because I think it all plays a role. Your thoughts create your reality and whether positive or negative can impact whether you are healthy or unhealthy. And also your motivation, if you think the world's never going to change, you're not going to be that inclined to want to try to bother because it was never going to change why you can make the effort. When I had cancer, my first thoughts were, cool, okay, I've got cancer, but this isn't going to kill me. How could it? I'm too young and a lot of that was actually just ignorant. I didn't really understand where I was at in terms of my health at that time. But that positive mindset was almost a default. It stayed with me and it's something that I have since tried to build upon because I've seen the value in it. One of the, I think one of the things that I brought to my audience of people following my journey is that mindset. A lot of people feel so much despair about the state of the world. And obviously that is one perspective. And that is a totally accurate perspective in regards to the facts of what is happening. It's absolutely unfathomable the amount of needless suffering and violence that is currently taking place that could be eliminated like that. If people were just doing what vegans are already doing, which is having a mad time and eating delicious food and it's all easy. But I think what I brought to the table for a lot of people that are following my journey is a different perspective that you can focus on the good. You don't need to make yourself suffer because so many others are suffering. In fact, I don't think that's helpful. I think that's harmful to you helping to create change unless you channel it in a specific way. But I think overall, if you can have the perspective of, yes, this is the facts, but here are also some other facts. Things are changing. Things are changing so fast compared to how they were even five years ago. We have vegan meat that is becoming mainstream and popular in some of the most world famous popular fast food chains all around the world. We are seeing veganism in the media constantly. We are seeing more transparency forced upon the dairy industry, the egg industry. People are starting to learn the facts. There's more and more information coming out about the health benefits and the disastrous impacts on health when we consume flesh and eggs and cow's milk. So I just think that the perspective that helps more is to see the changes happening, to put your attention on all the good that's happening, to realise that change is happening is because of all of our combined actions, collective actions, as a team of people all around the world who can see a better way to live. And yeah, that perspective keeps me sane, it keeps me happy, it keeps me motivated. And I think that's just so key to getting up in the morning and doing it all over again and answering the same questions all over again and viewing the footage and being there all over again, knowing that it is making an impact and it's gonna happen. Interesting how the collective consciousness, especially for this movement in particular, like whether we think it's possible, can either drive motivation or suck away motivation anyone who ever believed they could achieve something first, they thought it was possible first and it was just an idea. So if we're focusing on, oh my God, this is an impossible task, I don't think that that's a helpful perspective to drive the change that we want, yeah? Of course, and actually, Joey, I remember, it was probably a couple of years ago now, I remember you telling me that you saw the, you saw it so clearly in your mind, the vegan world, it's already happened, you were saying to me, that helped me, I thought, yeah, we need to keep that image clear in our minds, what way is this fight gonna go? Are we gonna make it? It's like, what, of course, it's already done, this is inevitable, it's a matter of time, and let's make this as soon as possible, because so many lives can still be saved, but yeah, I think your perspective back there helped me a lot, keep a very clear picture in your head that this is how it's gonna be, and the more clear you can make that picture, the more you manifest that into reality. Because I think we get caught up into how, about how are we gonna do this, I think we need to focus on our intention and what the manifested result looks like, I remember my first speech, right, at the vegan camp out in 2017, and I was like, it was pretty good, you were like, but I remember I was a little bit questioning like, ooh, do you have any advice for me, James, and you go, well, what's your intention? And I was just like, wow, like I didn't need to know anything more after that one. That's what we should all focus on, what is your intention? Are you just going out there shooting in the wind, or do you have a clear intention that you wake up to every morning? What is your perspective on intention? Yeah, absolutely, I think that that is so key because when you have the right intention, the actions will follow, the how will come, you don't need to stress as much about the how, you'll figure it out. I think the key point is definitely to have the intention. That's the only way that I've ever done my speeches. For example, when I found out I was speaking at the camp out about six months ago or something like that, I was asked to speak again. I thought, okay, I will speak again. I'm sure I'll have something valuable I can think up to say, but it's six months away. I don't want to do the same speech I did to them last time, even though the facts haven't changed, my opinions are basically the same. What am I going to do? And the same thing I just thought, well, I'm just going to create my intention. And my intentions were something like to leave people feeling motivated. I wanted to remember why we're doing this. I want them to feel that they have not only a responsibility and a duty, but also they have power to create an impact. And then my speech just flowed. I didn't have to write a cave for the first few minutes. I'm going to talk about this, then I'm going to talk about that. It was much more useful for me to think about my intention. And I think that goes with all of our actions when you're interacting with people, when you're writing a post, when you're creating a video. And sometimes it gets so exhausting. What am I going to write about today? I don't know. Let's scroll through your photos. What can I post about? And then if you just bring it back to, what is the point in me doing this at all? The motivation comes so fast. When you speak from your heart and from that place of knowing and throw it through that intention, it's almost effortless, isn't it? Totally, man. Yeah, it just opens up a different channel for that the words to come and the energy flows in a different way. And you do it for all the right reasons. And sometimes I forget. Sometimes I don't have as clear an intention. You know, like where human beings, we go through flow. But yeah, I think it's a great point to mention that it's, you know, to have your intention very clear for a long time. For a long time, my initial intention when I got into animal rights was to contribute to causing a kind of more peaceful world for us all to live. That was my intention probably the first four years or something like that. Now my intention is also that, but I've added to that. I want to do as much good as possible while living as good of a life for myself as possible. Part of that is strategy in regards to when it comes to social media, people want to see people living a happy life. They don't want to just see the violence and things like that. I'm just going off how I've seen other channels and accounts grow to the mainstream. So that's just strategy. Okay, so I need to put some of my life out there. I need to do interesting things. I need to have a good life. But also it's from its strategy from a different perspective of seeing that so many activists burn out doing this. It's a horrible job in a way. I mean, in many ways to be constantly focused on cruelty, suffering, apathy, ignorance, aggression. You know, it's, yeah, obviously that is, can take its toll on the person. And so the reason why it's not just to do as much good as possible, but also deliver as good a life for myself as possible is because in the long run, you know, if this isn't something that is over in a decade and it does take multiple decades of my life, which we will be here for and we won't start until it's done or we've done as much as we possibly can, then I want to be able to be my best for the long haul. And how I've seen certain people burn out, you know, who I've been close with over time. Myself personally, I feel that I am much better than I've ever been right now in regards to mental health and clarity in the message and effectiveness. And I think that's because now I have more balance of this intention, where I felt like also I needed to really do so much for them and nothing for myself. I was burning out a lot. I wasn't feeling good. The world got very dark for a while there. And I realized that actually didn't work for me, but I felt like that dedication was very important because it just solidified my deep, need to do whatever I can. And I felt a responsibility to the animals which I still do now. But yeah, I guess I'm just finding, you know, and it'll continue to change, I'm sure, but just finding ways to do this sustainably, be as effective as possible and continue to keep going. Yeah, I think you're looking at the long game here and I think that's a wise move because I was around for about the time when you went a little bit downhill and that's because I feel like you were, it was like you were using your energy in not the most effective way. You were bouncing around the world doing speech after speech after vigil and then you were talking to hundreds of people after every speech and just using your energy in not a very, it was a very unsustainable way. You're giving too much of yourself before you'd filled your cup back up and there are ways where you can give 2,000s of people without putting out that type of physical energy in the moment. And I felt like maybe that was just a misuse of your energy. Absolutely, man. I feel like it was not the most productive way to be. And I still don't feel like I'm doing things as productive as possible. I'm still bouncing around the world and I'm still, it's hard to say no to opportunities when someone says come and speak about animal rights. It's hard to be like, nah, I'm just, I think I can't, man. Like my main skill is public speaking about this. I've done so many speeches. I've thought about this so much. I hear the feedback from people after a speech. I know how well it works. It's hard to say no, but on the other hand, I know how far reaching one single video can be from the comfort of my own home. So yeah, and this is something that I'm working towards to take it even more sustainable and not just more sustainable, but have a further reach by setting up something more of a home base, which I haven't had since I became an activist. I've been bouncing around constantly. I haven't spent two months anywhere for six years now and I'm hoping that next year I can just settle down a little bit and focus more on content rather than me in person being in all these places and giving so much. I think, yeah, that's, I think what you're doing actually is great, man. You've, I've been trying to, I've been aspiring to this or the schedulers hasn't permitted, but this is the goal. I think what you do is very, very smart, very, very productive and effective. You go hard, you go to a tour, you record so much, then you come back and you put it all together. I go hard in a different way. So it's like exercising a different muscle and a different form of stress, which is like, so there's one form of stress. Like I actually worked out like with the Europe tour that really taught me a lot because I pushed myself to the absolute limit and I was really at breaking point because of the flights were so close together and I was doing like three events a day and like, so 15 cities in three weeks. And I was just like thinking I'm going to go as hard as I can, but I got a lot of content out of that. Got a lot of footage and I made a big change, but it made me think like Wednesday and like, I could have been based right here in London going to exactly the same amount of events, filming exactly the same amount of content, having a good sleep, training in the morning and peppering that content out on social media. It was just a bad use of my energy and I learned that and I've learned when to say no and I've learned to do this thing called evaluation where I'm like, okay, what's the cost benefit ratio here? Could I make a bigger impact for animals right here or should I fly across the world to this place to do a speech at the vegan festival? It's just not going to be a good use of my funding or time or energy. I think though, I totally agree with what you just said that is something always to consider, but you just never know as well what's coming. And sometimes you just sort of have to use your intuition. Sometimes you can evaluate to the best of your ability based on the information you've got, but that's always going to be lacking a full knowledge of what might be coming. So for example, I was invited to do a speech in Norway and I got there, I was jet lagged, I looked at the crowd, there was literally 20 people there. I thought, oh my God, I can't believe I've flown all the way across the world to give this speech. I was told there was going to be way more people here. I felt angry, you know, just this is stupid, I shouldn't have done this. And a video came out of that, vegan versus Christian. Yeah, that reached over a million people. And so, okay, I traveled across the world, it cost money. It was a lot of time, I was very tired over a million people got the vegan message because of that and it did have an impact that I was absolutely not expecting. So sometimes, yeah, like, you know, you can try to weigh that up. Also, there's the benefit of, you know, people, people who are following our journey, which is a lot of people, they want to meet and, you know, just say hi to us and tell us that they appreciate a video that we made or share their own stories or whatever it is. And, you know, if we can also do the rounds from time to time to draw more people to these events, for example, so many people come and say, this is the first vigil I've ever been to, I'm here because you put it on your Instagram story, that I'm going to say great and please don't let this be the only vigil that you come to just because I'm here. Please come back and often they'll be like, I will now that I'm here and I see how it works. I thought it was going to be so extreme and it'll be far more aggressive or the activist, but it's peaceful and it's effective. You know, that might resonate with a lot of people and then they will be back again and again and again. And then they, you know, you hear people saying, yeah, I've been an activist for one girl last night. I met four and a half years ago. I watched your video. I've been an activist ever since. I've done this, that, my whole family, this, that. I'm just like, wow, I'm so glad that, you know, we made the effort. Yeah. But yeah, it's hard to call and again it comes down to what you've got to offer and trying to evaluate to the best of your ability. I guess when I was touring constantly, living out a suitcase, setting up offices, wherever I was, that kind of thing there, like I just got to make a good balance between that. I've got a different view on burnout. Do you want to hear of? Yeah, of course I will. I think it's a little bit over pumped into the activists. I think that you have to be doing enough activism first before you even consider the burnout thing. In, from my perspective, right, people go out and they work jobs like 17 hours a day. They might be entrepreneurs and they're pumping their whole life into this job for money, right? And, you know, they do this for 50 years and they ain't burning out, you know? It just depends on whether you love what you do. I think that that should be the driving force, but if you've got this purpose, like I've got this purpose driving me, and yeah, it can be tough, but I wouldn't see myself doing anything else. So for me, that I don't even have the burnout in, like obviously I'm careful, I'm not silly, but I don't focus on that burnout aspect for me because I just think, well, I love this so much, I'll wake up for it. And if I didn't have this driving me forwards as a purpose, you know, my life would be so much more dull. So I'm so grateful for the opportunity constantly to be hammering this workout. So my view on burnout is a little bit, you know, it's changed a lot, it's changed a lot. You know, I think we can push ourselves further than we give ourselves credit for. And I think that, you know, obviously there's a level that you can reach where you can push too hard. But for me, a lot of people might not be reaching their full potential yet. And, you know, I want people to know that they are quite, you're actually more capable than you think, and you can push yourself a little bit harder than what you think. And yeah, I just wanna make sure that, you know, before we start talking about burnout, let's see, do you feel in your heart that you're putting in enough effort, you know, enough work? And yeah, that's the way I look at it. I think as well, something to consider is that you're a strong person, man. You've been through a lot in your life already, which has hardened you in certain ways. I don't even know if it's hardened the right way because you're also very soft in certain ways when it comes to being sensitive to the blood of animals, which a lot of people are not. But yeah, you've seen a lot, you've been through a lot. You've put yourself right there, face to face with it all. A lot of people can't even get anywhere near that close. And I think, you know, burnout for you would look very different to somebody who is not so accustomed to violence, to that kind of thing. So I think that when it comes to animal rights activists, you know, like someone could just, maybe burnout is necessarily the word, but almost like post-traumatic stress. It's trauma. Yes, trauma from witnessing, even just going to a vigil and witnessing, having a moment connecting with one of these animals, they look you in the eyes, pleading with you. You're looking back at them helpless to, you can't do anything in that moment for this individual, except for share their story, that maybe it's not burnout, but... That would be different. That would be your psychological response to seeing something traumatic. When I'm thinking of burnout, I'm thinking of repetitive work to the point that you mentally cannot deal with it anymore because you've just overrung the cocks to the point where you're burnt out. And I hate this. I hate this. But the way I was looking at it is like, so with activism, there's obviously a thousand different forms of activism. So you could be doing different forms of advocacy that you've interweaved into your work life. You could be promoting the message on social media. You know the thousands of ways you can advocate. If you love this, if you really want to make a change and you love this and this is your purpose, obviously you don't have to go facing animals every single day, but there's ways you can incorporate activism into your lifestyle without burning out forever. You know? And the way that I was seeing it is that people were forced to go work a job that they hate till they retire. And they work in 12-hour days, you know? And they ain't burning out because they have to do it. They have to do it. So for me, there's no question. I'm committed. I have to do this. And it's also my purpose. So for me, I guess we have to separate the idea of burning out with psychological trauma from facing what the animals are going through. Well, again, yes, absolutely. But again, I think that you have a great, it comes back to perspective. And your perspective is, I love this. I love getting up in the morning, having a purpose, being able to help reduce suffering on this planet to see tangible, my tangible impact and receive from people stories about how your videos have helped these people. You love it. You found the love in there. You're not just an activist hating your way through it. And I think that's so important, man, like find a way you can be an activist that you love it. Or just find the good in whatever it is that you're doing. There's so much good to be found. And that's just a skill to learn about having a practice in your life of, you might as well love it. If you're gonna do it anyway, this is the way you've chosen to do it. How are you gonna make, how are you gonna, you're either gonna suffer through it every day or you're gonna love through it every day. And I think that's a testament to your perspective, to finding how to love the work you do. Because for somebody else, being in front of the camera, going to slaughterhouses, responding to a bunch of hate, people criticizing you, just all the ups and downs of it, like so many people would not want that job. And you may not have as well, if you had to do a perspective of it, but I think it's really great that you've found a way to love your work, that's something anyone can do. That's why I was trying to get to your, because you pulled yourself out of suffering. And I pulled myself out of suffering too, suicidal, drug addiction, a very violent hectic environment. Like my life wasn't very, very scary and filled riddle with anxiety and deception and violence constantly. I didn't know whether I was gonna live or die the next day and people being assaulted and kidnapped and just war going on all the time, paranoid. And it was a very nightmarish reality for me, pulling myself out of that suffering and the gratitude I experienced and like, wow, I've got to give back now. Like this burning desire to make sure my life wasn't a complete failure and like make sure that I'm giving back. So you had a very impending sense of your own demise. And has that helped you like with your perspective on things like? Well, I'm sure it has in many ways. I think for me, you know, every day is an opportunity to do something and you only have a certain amount of opportunities. This tattoo I've got on my fingers actually, it is the numbers five, two, five, nine, four, eight, seven, six, it's the amount of minutes in 100 years. And it is based off of a Dalai Lama quote that says, we visitors on this planet for 80, 90 years max kind of thing. And during that time, we should do something meaningful with our lives, contributing to the happiness of others is the most meaningful thing you can do. So I think, you know, having death is so avoided in our society. We don't look at dead bodies. In certain cultures, you burn the dead bodies as part of ceremony. We're so detached from it all. And I think, yeah, I guess that helped me have some sort of attachment to the idea that I'm gonna die, I'm not here forever. Continue to remember that because you may just use your days differently. And how do I wanna use my day? I wanna contribute to doing something good that I can do. And you know, I think for sure, I just put a post up then actually, just on the way here. It was a photo of a 67 year old man and a young woman. They were both marching side by side at the animal rights march, I believe it was. 67 years old, approximately 150 animals eaten by each individual every single year. So this individual has eliminated his contribution to the direct death of 10,000 other individuals. And man, that's one thing that guy did that did so much good every single day. He just ate that plant-based diet kind of thing. We have even more power than that at this point when we have social media, when we have a reach to 100 people, 1,000 people, 10,000, 100,000. Some of us have reached to a million people to be able to, there's no, this is what I said in my post. Show me a better way to reduce suffering on this planet at this magnitude to someone changing the diet, someone changing instead of cow's milk to get soil, rice or almond or coconut milk, having beans or tofu or tampa instead of meat, having tofu scrambled instead of eggs or avocado on toast or peanut butter on toast instead of eggs. That is so simple. Show me an easier way to save so many lives to reduce so much suffering. There isn't one. And so that's why each day now that I have a bit more perspective, okay, I'm gonna die, so how do I wanna spend my days? Well, I do wanna enjoy my life. I think that's important too for strategic reasons when it comes to primary animal rights. Also just for my own personal, I wanna see what I can do with my life in different ways. But vast majority of the dedication is going to lifting the bottom up, helping the ones right at the bottom. And there's many groups that are suffering in this world when it comes to, and I want them all to be helped. And I'm glad that there's activists for many different causes. I don't want everyone to just jump on animal rights. I want everyone to be helped. We're all, you know, there's much suffering going on. But when it comes to the easiest way to reduce suffering, to reduce violence, to improve the health of the planet, to improve the health of humanity spiritually and physically, I can't think of an easier way than just promoting a planet-based diet to each other and then to our audiences as well. And wow, what a gift. Okay, so what do we have to do? We write a post each day, we make a video, we have these conversations. Literally your words. You don't need to go to war. You don't need a battle for this in a way it's a battle, but also you can just, I was on the train on the way here, bro. I was wearing my vegan hat. This dude goes to me, says, how like sort of hard-looking dude goes, I like your hat, bro. I go, thanks, bro. I appreciate that. I just chew it off. I'll just leave it to see if he says anything else. He goes, my nine-year-old, my nine-year-old girl is vegan. I'm like, whoa, smart girl. He goes, yeah, my baby mama, she's been vegan for like five years. I said, well, good for her, man. You know, being vegan is such a lifestyle upgrade. It's so good for you, man. I feel so good. I'm so grateful that I'm not dining on the corpses of murdered, tortured animals anymore. Bro, I can't tell you how good I feel. Whoa. And he's just like, really? I'm like, oh, bro, I promise you, the food is so good. He goes, I've seen some good vegan food. I'm like, you gotta taste some good vegan food, man. And he leaves there and he's like, thanks for the chat, bro. I'm like, bro, yeah, of course. I was so good at telling him. He's like, all right, all right, I'm feeling, I'm sick. And he rolls out. I'm like, cool. We spent two minutes talking. This dude is definitely way more feeling vegan as than before. What does that mean that we had that conversation? Potentially 150 innocent beings who feel pain and suffer just like us won't be murdered because of this guy each year now. Yeah, it is. And it actually gave you energy. That conversation was like, do you feel like when you having these outreach conversations, even to the, like, you feel energized after these conversations? Well, generally. It was a positive interaction. Bro, I just feel like, oh, so positive. And I just, you know, I don't feel energized. So what did I say gave me energy? I just felt so grateful to have that information. Yeah, I'm like, well, I just helped my brother. I don't know this guy. I just helped this guy make such a vital connection to his compassion that's going to help his health. Forget the animals for two seconds. I help his health so much so you can connect with his daughter more and more compassionate level. But then for the animals, so they don't get their throats. So I don't get a baby storm from them and hooked up to these machines and slaughtered in all these horrific ways. Yeah. Yeah, man, I felt, I just felt like, wow, this little bit of information I know if you, like this, this is all it comes down to. You can get every single essential nutrient you need from plants. Therefore, any type of animal consumption is completely needless and unnecessary. And because every single animal product comes from violence, needless violence, then therefore it is inherently immoral and unnecessary. That's it. So having that information and just being able to share that and that being able to do so much good. I'm just like, wow, every vegan is sitting on such a goldmine of information that can be articulated so simply that it's so logical and impossible to argue against. I'm just so happy to have it. So when he left, I just thought, I'm so glad I know this. I'm so glad I can share this. I'm so grateful for how much good veganism can do for the world. That's what I thought about. You make it sound so simple. So it doesn't always turn out that simply, though. It doesn't, let's be honest here. Yeah, well, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't always turn out that simply, but I think it's almost impossible for somebody to speak to an educated vegan, no matter how they respond in the moment without going away and thinking about the hypocritical claims they just made. Yeah. I mean, the main thing I hear is like that vegans are hypocrites because they cause harm. And but anything that they can say against a vegan can be, you know, said to the magnitude of 10 back to the person who's also paying for animals to be stabbed on top of the harm that they cause. So, like, the only, like, where do people, what is the main thing that you hear, the main objection, the main justification that you hear on a day-to-day basis? First, just on that point, vegans aren't being hypocritical in asking everyone else to reduce their suffering as far as practically possible, just because we can't be perfect. Veganism doesn't claim. Veganism is the path to perfection and zero harm. That's not what veganism is. I don't know if there's some sort of group that claim that. I don't think it's possible. So I assume not. Veganism is the path to cause a lease amount of harm as practically possible. So it's not hypocritical to be vegan and to ask everyone else to strive to reduce harm. The vast majority of harm is food animals and other animals that are tested on and exploited for entertainment and different things. The vast majority of it is in food. And so it's not at all hypocritical to ask people to make this very simple lifestyle. Change of just choosing the thing next, the soy milk instead of the cow's milk. For example, that's a very valid, reasonable thing to ask for. And it doesn't make us hypocrites with that. We still step on ants when we go for a walk or we drive on a road that has animal products in it. We're being the best vegans we can be in a not yet vegan world. And as soon as a road opens up, it's a vegan road with no animal products in it. Who do you think is going to be first on that road? It's going to be only vegans trying to cause, oh cool, we can cause less harm now, awesome. Now, when it comes to the most common objection I hear, I think the most common objection that exists is probably just people don't think it's healthy. Whether that's the most that I hear or not, I think that's probably, I think probably the main ones that are stopping people from being vegan is one, they don't think they can do it in a healthy way. They believe it's not healthy. They've been told their whole life they need meat for protein and they need dairy for cats and they need eggs for omegas and there's just no such thing as a healthy vegan. I read this study, I saw this clickbait headline. Yeah, it just can't be done. I think there's, I think then a very, very big reason why people aren't switching to veganism is they think they can't, they don't have it in them. I've been eating this food my whole life. I love steak, I love chicken, I love eating eggs. How am I going to stop eating these foods? What am I going to eat just salad all the time? They have no idea how easy it is due to how many delicious, literally millions of vegan meals are out there just as satisfying, just as tasty, just as filling. And they've got no idea. They're just saying, oh, I can't just live off lettuce, man. I don't even like tofu. How am I going to be vegan? I'm allergic to soy, cool. I don't need soy that often but you don't need to enjoy tofu to be vegan. We got it all. We can make literally every food that you enjoy is there's a vegan version of it at a few clicks of your fingers on your phone or laptop away. But I think that's a really major concern with people. I kind of want to go vegan but I'm afraid that I'll fail. And if I fail, I don't want to watch that footage because if I watch that footage, I'm going to feel compelled to change. And I don't want to feel compelled to change because I don't think I actually can change. I don't have it in me to do what these vegans do. I don't have that willpower. And the truth is you don't need willpower. You need motivation and you need to know how to do it in a sustainable way. So you don't just go vegan for a week, eat a totally raw food diet, not get the nutrients you need and then fail and then go, oh, veganism isn't for me. I should go back to eating animals. No, there's a very simple way to eat healthy on a vegan diet. A whole food plant-based diet is what you should look into. That's an ideal vegan diet. You can add a little bit of processed food in there from time to time. It's not going to cure you. But ideally what you stick into is a whole food plant-based diet. Fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains, seeds, beans. This can turn into pastas, burgers, pizzas, vegan ice cream. All kinds of different delicious, amazing foods can be made from these very simple, basic foods. So I guess what you're saying is it's more of a practical issue for people versus a principle issue, which would be like, in principle, they believe that veganism is more ethical, obviously. They see that the slaughterhouse footage and they're like, well, in principle, I agree with you. But practically, I don't think I can achieve it and is it healthy? But these are all practical things that can be solved. Yeah? And I think that that took me a while to get to the point of really advocating for, well, in that way with that knowledge for a long time. I was just only focused on animal rights. This is why we should all be vegan. These individuals are why we should all be vegan. The facts, the figures, the graphic cruelty. And then I started hearing from actually from friends from school. A lot of friends from school said, I'm with you, man. I getcha. Veganism is the way. How? I can't, I don't know how to do it. I'm like, shit, I haven't told anybody how to do it yet. Okay, how do you go vegan? You know, actually the first time I realized this, I was almost finished my valve of silence the first year that I went vegan. Yeah. We started activism on the day I went vegan. I've been writing a blog every day, man, up to the point where I started cycling across Australia and I couldn't do it every day. But up to this point, I've written every single day, this is what happens in the dairy industry. This is what happens here. This is that. And then I got all the way into the shit and I realized, oh my God, I've never told my audience how to do it. And I said, guys, I'm so sorry. This is how you do it. Shit, you just swap these things. These are the products that's available. Here's some websites with recipes. They've been so patient the whole time. Tell us how, man. And then actually a couple of years ago, I heard from a friend of mine who was a good friend in school when she said, I'm with you, man. I think what you're saying makes so much sense. It's so logical. I love animals. I don't want to cause this harm to them. Can you share more recipes? Can you share more practical suggestions? And then I started thinking about, OK, so how did I go vegan? Well, I went vegetarian first. And then that opened me up again to, you know, I was always just go vegan, go vegan. And now my approach has changed. Now I say, go vegan. That's what you've got to do. That is the least we should do. Don't even see that as an end goal. That's the starting point. That should be the least we should do our moral baseline in society. Stop harming the innocent. It's anti-slavery. It's anti-oppression. It's anti-balance. It's an alignment with laws we already have. It's just extending those laws to pigs, cows, chickens, fish, and all the other animals that we legally exploit. So that's just totally obvious and logical. And then on top of that, you can, you know, spread the message, hopefully, in countless different ways. But when it comes to, oh, man, I lost my train of thought. What was I saying? Practical. Yes, when it comes, so thank you, thank you. So when it comes to how to get to being vegan, now my suggestions have changed. Now I do say, and this is something I used to be totally against, now I'm saying, you know, person dependent, I gauge a person based on where they're at. But I will give them every option that has been known to work for people. Going vegetarian has been known to work for countless people. When I did a speech in Ottawa at the parliament building, out front of the parliament building after a march last year, huge crowd of vegans. And I said, put your hand up. If I was curious for myself, put your hand up if you went vegan before, if you went vegetarian before going vegan. Nearly every single person put their hand up. I thought, wow, OK, we don't need to demonize vegetarianism so much. It is a stepping stone. Yes, some people get stuck there way too long. And that isn't something we should support. Or say, yeah, just go vegetarian and take your time. It's not like that. You can still suggest paths to veganism that are practical, but in a way that isn't selling out on the animals. It's in a way that's just giving people something to do that has some momentum to take them to the next step. I want to know how they receive the message though. Because for me, a lot of people, it's very obvious that meat is hacked off of an animal. So they might make the decision to go vegetarian intuitively. Did they get the full message before going vegetarian? And what does it take to push a vegetarian out of that comfort zone? Great questions. I think that, look, a lot of the time I won't do this as well, let me just say. A lot of the time I'm not saying in all my posts and videos, go vegetarian first, do this, go meatless Monday first, eat vegan for breakfast first, and lunch. These are options that I think can be useful to getting people to being vegan. But I don't always do that because I also know that there's a lot of people who just need the message, go vegan tomorrow, now, very, very soon as possible. And they will just figure that out and do it. But I think there's also, I'd say, probably just based on experience in interacting with people, a larger group of people, the more mainstream people who do have maybe less of a motivation or feeling of ability to be able to make this change. I think that's a large group of people who are totally scared off by the idea of being vegan. And to the point where you've got it written right here, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. They are doing that. They're like, I can't be perfect. I can't be vegan. So I'm just going to stay and do what I'm doing. Even though I don't necessarily want to be here, but I don't think I can get there. So now I think it's important to go, well, I know that seems like a big jump, but how about this jump? Do you think you could cut out meat? Or do you cut out meat for a week? See how easy that is, how good the food is. And then maybe next week you cut out eggs, and then maybe next week you cut out dairy. And in three weeks, you'll be there. And I know you can do that. Does that sound more achievable for you? And to a lot of people, they say, yeah, thanks for giving me some steps. How to go vegan overnight, that's, we know we can, people can do it, but I can understand why it seems daunting to a lot of people. It feels like a huge lifestyle shift and upheaval. And I'm going to throw out all my stuff and I'm not going to be perfect vegan. So maybe I shouldn't be vegan. I still have products that are being tested on animals. And I don't know, what about my washing liquid? And it's like, you'll get to that. You'll get to that. Next time you run out of washing liquid, just look up vegan washing liquid at the supermarket you shop at. In the meantime, what can you do tomorrow? Do you think next time you go shopping, you can get coconut milk or almond milk or soy milk instead of cow's milk? Is that achievable for you? Okay, yeah, that I can do. Okay, cool. Cool. So that's almost dairy done. Like, there's really very few steps to get there. And that's why, yeah, I've got to a point where I just think from time to time, with the right people or in the right way, it has seen, is proven useful to give people different paths. To the same goal. Of course. So you're obviously advocating for veganism. It's just a path that, you know, dependent on the person, the path that they take to get there, but you're always explicit about what the end goal. Of course, man. I would never ever, you know. Yeah, of course. Of course I've never said it. A big part of the dairy industry. Why does it just go vegetarian? I'm cool with that. Just to go vegetarian. But this perfect, perfect, good quote that I use on the whiteboard here, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Good is veganism. It's not, veganism isn't perfect in and of itself, is it? Because we are obviously still contributing to some harm by existing. I want to talk to you about this, because this has been a little bit of a topic. It's probably just a topic in the vegan movement. Not much. But what do you think about supporting these mainstream companies that put on a vegan option? And people go, well, you can't support companies that are non-vegan. But they put on, let's just say, KFC Subway, McDonald's, Tesco, they're putting on our vegan range. Are you someone who would say, hell yeah, are you someone who would say, you know, only support 100% ethical businesses? What's your view? I can't think of a better thing for the animal rights movement to be honest, bro. I think one of the biggest issues with people going vegan is also the convenience factor. It's too hard, what am I gonna do? This is where I eat. I go to this supermarket, I go to this restaurant, I get this fast food. I'm like, they don't have vegan stuff there. What am I, I can't do that. My job, there's no vegan places around. What do you want me to do? How am I gonna be vegan? To be able to have these options at these such popular restaurants. So it's been really interesting actually. Tim Hortons have, I think, over 7,000 locations in Canada. They put the Beyond Burger in all of their stores and they advertised it. Every store I drive by is huge billboards on the highway. I'm like, plant-based meat options. This is amazing. Wow, they're really normalizing it. The convenience factor is through the roof. Incredible, I'm so happy. Absolutely, and they're selling out of it. So that's Tim Hortons. They did the same at A&W. They were selling out of the Beyond Burger. They just brought it into Subway, selling out. Absolutely dominating. There's so many Starbucks bringing in vegan options and just so many different places bringing in vegan options. I never heard any negativity from on my posts, at least sharing these. And I share every single one of them saying how amazing I think this is to have these vegan alternatives in these such mainstream places where people are gonna be like, I've heard about vegan stuff or they go with their vegan friend. The vegan friend suggests, why don't you just try this? People start seeing, well, this is delicious and I feel pretty good that it isn't actually an animal. I don't like causing animal cruelty. I heard these are healthier as well. They're better for the planet too. They have just as much protein. It's huge. Makes a lot of sense. It's huge. They have millions of dollars in marketing. They have restaurants all over the world. They can reach the mainstream like no other. They're doing all that advertising for us, man. I'm like, thanks. Thanks for spreading the vegan message for us. I'm so stoked. The funny thing is, as soon as KFC did it, everyone goes, so, not everyone. A group of people, a group of vegans are like, no, how can you promote this? Because KFC is very obviously selling tortured chicken pie. That's what that main thing. But I don't think that KFC are an inherently... They're not morally distinct from Starbucks. Of course not. They sell cows there all over the world. I don't think so either. But I saw the same people who were emotionally against KFC would happily walk into Starbucks and get an ol' latte. And I'm like, wait a second. Where are you getting shopping from here? What's this new attachment? You have to go shopping at 100% vegan businesses. This is not achievable and it's not practical. And it's a big problem to even promote that. And you won't see me promoting that because I'm trying to reach the mainstream. I want to reach those low-income families that are just eating meat. They've never heard of vegan before and they walk into McDonald's and there's a McVegan there. And they can choose that over the slaughtered, enslaved dairy cow's body that's minced up in the other burgers. Absolutely, man. And I think that, yes, KFC, they kill so many dead chickens. Millions, tens of millions. It's not, it's horrific. Yeah. But if anyone can change, anyone. So what else workers change? We change, people change, businesses change too. And when they see a demand for ethical alternatives, for vegan alternatives, they put one there. They see how well it goes. They put another, they put another. It's not going to be long before it's VKFC. Vegan, Kentucky Fried, whatever they want to call it. Vegan chicken. Kentucky Fried corn. Yeah, it's all like that, it's going to be. And so that's what I want. I don't want to just, I don't think boycotting them is something that's going to work because too many people are not interested. They don't even want to go vegan and eat vegan alternatives, a lot of people. To ask them to boycott their favorite restaurant because they maybe have some unethical practices. It's just, it's not practical. It's not pragmatic. It's not going to happen. No. I wish everyone would just totally boycott every fast food chain and only vegan restaurants, but that's just not reality. So let's work in what's reality. What are people going to do? They can choose a vegan option at these places. And that's what people will do. That's why it's selling out. And that's what's going to motivate them to, wow, I wasn't expecting that to do so well. Let's invest, let's invest some more money into creating more of these options. Whoa, they're selling out too. People want the option. It's almost like I was talking to Alex Hirscher after he's been a vegan for 40 years and in animal rights for a lifetime, longer than we've been here. So, and he was saying like most people, they know that eating meat is cruel, factory farming is cruel. You don't have to tell them anymore. They just need the convenient food choice. So what we need to do is change the food system from above so that there's choices available so people can, you know, it's convenient for people to choose, like let's just look a fried corn, Kentucky fried corn burger right there. They don't have to reach for anything. They don't have to go find a vegan restaurant somewhere, it's right there. So it's on every corner, on every corner. They can make a moral choice if it's convenient. They want to. They want to. They're just like, that's a bit hard vegan places. We don't have many around. Oh, is that KFC? Well, that I can do. Was that Subway? I can do that too. These are the places that are in every food court, in every shopping center, on every corner. And this is before that wasn't a thing. Like, where am I going to get vegan food? No way, wasn't in my consciousness before. I was thought it was impossible to get a vegan burger in McDonald's or KFC or Subway. I was just like. And it goes from being hard to find to being on every corner. Every country on earth. On earth. Wow. One of the biggest things that happened to this. What do you think about ex-vegans? You know, like think of that, think of people who go vegan and then they're struggling to, because of convenience or the family issues, where their family's going into a restaurant and there's no vegan options and that's social pressure. But if there's vegan options in these restaurants and we're supporting them and promoting them and they go on to KFC, their friends have had a few beers that night, they go on to KFC, there's a vegan option for them. It's just helping people stay vegan as well. Of course it is, man. Yeah, social pressure is for certain personality types. And a lot of people would just want to fit in and just do what everyone else is doing and don't want to be asked questions about their lifestyle and don't have the confidence to answer and that's a legitimate concern for people. I'm going to be different and people are going to look at me different and I'm not going to get invited to things and I'm not going to be able to go out to eat with my friends. And my friends won't invite me because there's no vegan option there. It's like, no, you don't have to worry about it. There's going to be a vegan option there. Now you can eat with them. It's going to look the same. It's going to taste the same. In fact, it's probably going to motivate your friends to eat like you too. Maybe out of respect, maybe out of curiosity, maybe they'll taste it and be like, that's actually delicious and they care about animals too. Maybe they would make changes for the same reasons you do. The convenience factor going through the roof is for sure. I mean, I- It's one of the biggest- Do you think that's one of the biggest convenience? 100%. If everybody could just, if everybody could go out right now, go to do all the same shopping they could do, eat the exact same tasting food that they can and it'd be vegan. Of course they would do that. They'd be like, you'd have to be so illogical not to do that. What would they do it for? Because they want to contribute to animal cruelty? Because they want to destroy the plant? Because they want unhealthier food? We have the same food that tastes the same, that looks the same in the exact same location as where you already eat and it is better for all the reasons you can only be perfectly healthy on it and it's just as convenient. You'd have to- What kind of person wouldn't choose that? It makes no sense. So it just comes down to, but there's certain other factors as well. So it comes down to educating people that yes, this is a healthy choice, a healthier choice. It's better for you and your family make this choice when possible and then it's like, it's always possible. You can do this anytime you go shopping now. It's become more convenient than ever and not only is it more convenient than ever, but you can eat the same things you already eat. You like KFC? We go vegan KFC at KFC. Go enjoy. You don't have to be a healthy vegan if you don't want. We recommend eating a whole foods plant-based diet. That's how you'll feel your best. If you don't want to do that, cool. Just stop killing animals in the process of you getting your calories and you can easily do that by choosing the vegan alternatives. And if I was to like, you can't support KFC, you must only, I'll just think like, we don't, we're not in a position to have that flexibility to go, you can only buy vegan food from here. We need people buying vegan food from wherever it's available. You know, the world's like, oh God, we need radical change. We need radical change. We need people working from below. We need direct action from above. We need corporations putting on vegan options. We need everything working together. And the last thing I'm going to be doing is like anti-vegan product activism. Yeah, I don't do that either. I don't do any of that either. And look, like, yeah, everyone's got their heart in the right place. Of course. You know, we all, I just, we all want the same thing, vegan world as soon as possible. So I always have different ideas on how to get there. And that's fine. It's, you know, it's no hate on anybody with that opinion or anything. But me personally, I don't think that's a logical or consistent opinion. And yeah, I definitely, I definitely support vegan options being everywhere. It almost feels counter-intuitive though, doesn't it? Because like, you have the, like everyone's got this emotional attachment to a place like McDonald's. Like I used to hate McDonald's. Sure, sure. McDonald's have their own slaughterhouses. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's more of an emotional reaction. It's not a logical one. It's not up here like, okay, is this going to be good to have a different option for cows? Cows want a vegan burger at McDonald's? I think they might. Like, I don't know. If I was a cow and want a vegan burger at McDonald's, not a joey burger. So, you know. I completely agree. That's a great perspective to look at it from. Let's talk about where, so you've obviously achieved a lot in a short amount of time. You know, you haven't been vegan for 10 years. You've been what? You've been vegan for five years? Six years in January. You've achieved a lot, you know? And I'm really grateful that you're still kicking and still going and still promoting the message. Because I know that it, you know, just can feel like there's a weight on your shoulders. And you did go for a bit of a hard time there. About a, I think it was about a year ago. You went for a bit of a hard time. Yeah. And, but now, where are you seeing yourself going from here? Well, I just feel better than ever, man. I'm taking care of myself more than ever before. I actually just healed a neck injury I've had since I was 17. Wow. Every single day it was causing me grief. I had spent thousands of dollars on it. I had seen everybody. No one could do anything for it. And about three months ago, I realized I finally went back a little further. I thought I injured it when I was 21. I went back to when I was 17 and realized the root cause of what I did and then just worked with that new understanding. Healed my neck. So now I feel like, you know, I feel, man, I just feel so much better. I really want to take care of myself. A big part of, a big way that we can spread the messages through our health because people have this objection. You can't be a healthy vegan. So what I am focusing on right now is fitness and health. I want to show people how that you can build a body on a vegan diet. I want to, we're about to release an e-book. You've got a great recipe in there, bro. It's a recipe book with many people who are out there influencing people on how to live a vegan diet, live a vegan lifestyle. So we've got a collection of everybody in there just sharing recipes. And yeah, because that's a bit more not just why to go vegan. I want to focus also on how to go vegan, how to make this practical for people as possible. I'll continue posting every single day. Next year, I hope to be a little more set up so that I can focus a bit more on putting all the content that I do collect into things that actually finally reach the world. Because so much I collect and then a year later, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to edit that video now because I haven't sat down and I'm like, damn, I don't even want to put that out because I don't say it like that anymore. I feel like I've evolved the way I think about it. I'm focused as well, again, back into meditation, vipassana meditation. Let's talk about that. Can we just do a 10-day meditation? We haven't even talked about that. Let's go. It was my ninth course, my 10-day meditation course. I counted it up. I've done about 1,500 hours of this particular meditation practice now. I just see so much value in it, man. So much value for humankind. Veganism is to liberate animals from their suffering. And vipassana meditation is to liberate humans from our suffering. I just see so much value in it. I think that when people can learn to learn something to use some of the techniques involved in this meditation and I want to share them that it can do so much good for the world, for the individual. When we are lighted up we shine further into more darkness. We can do more good. When we're suffering less, we can focus more on the suffering of others. I think it's extremely valuable for the animal rights movement and just humanity in general. And, you know, I have a... I guess I feel similarly to Judy to speak about vipassana right now. Because, yeah, when you have something so good you want to share with the world. And aside from that, you know, coming up next week we're going to Indonesia. We have access to some slaughterhouses. So we'll be getting some powerful footage and I'm sure we'll turn a lot of people vegan who have maybe not seen such direct violence because of their choices before. So, yeah, just more of the usual. I have some speeches lined up at some schools for the end of the year and I'll just continue to be accepting as many opportunities as possible. Hopefully with bigger platforms. Hopefully with people who aren't vegan. I've been talking to Kelly Slater lately. Amazing. Yeah. I've been ESO from Bliss and ESO. His staffer's message must be again, we had a little back and forth. So, yeah, I just, I'd like to you know, I'm trying to be as approachable as possible. I want to I want people to feel comfortable with having me on their non-vegan platform so that I can go and just speak about what I think the way that the world needs to shift and how we can all do it. And aside from that in terms of big projects, at this point it's just more of the same because what, I'm happy with the impact that I've had and that I'm having. So, I'm just going with the flow but what I'm doing is working. I receive messages like I'm sure you do all day long for people going vegan. And it gives me a lot of confidence and it also makes it a lot easier to block out all the negative people who tell you you're doing it wrong. Don't do it like that. You need to do it like this. You shouldn't have said that. I was like, okay, we'll show us your results. Show us your results. We can, I just wanted to talk about like insight. You got insight from your vipassana? Dude, that was so good. Okay, so the vipassana technique is described as the technique that the Buddha, the only thing the Buddha taught once he became enlightened. And this is a story, I'm not saying I definitely believe in the story of the Buddha, but this is how it's described. And the benefit I've seen from it, I feel it definitely reigns, you know, that there feels a lot of truth to it, whether the actual story of the process of the Buddha's life, I don't know about that, but this particular technique, I believe in very, very, very strongly. The technique is simple. It is two equal parts. It is observation of the physical sensations on your body, and it is equanimity, which means accepting the moment, however it presents itself. When you combine those together, the technique means you are looking. You constantly have some awareness on the physical sensations on your body. Itching, tingling, pressure, pain, whatever it is, the reason why that's important, and why you're not working with the thought you have, or the emotions you have, is because, and this is the Buddha's contribution, when one of your senses is hit, for example, you see something pleasurable or unpleasurable, you think something in that way, good or bad, all your touch, hear, smell, the very first thing that happens, the deepest part of your mind, when you react is there is a sensation somewhere on your body, and we either do one of two things. We either have a sensation, and it's a pleasant sensation because something we saw was good, and then we respond by getting attached to it, oh, it feels good, but because everything, every sensation as well, is impermanent, as it starts to dissipate, like that's why people crave drugs, you feel good, and then as the drug hits starts to go, like, I want that drug again, yes more please. You become attached to that sensation, and so you suffer because of that attachment, or it's an unpleasurable sensation, and you resist in the moment, you suffer straight away because there's something not nice, let's say there's pain, and not only is there pain, which is just how it is, but you also add to that pain by going, oh there's pain, I don't want to be in pain, I hate pain, pain sucks, why me? And the technique of a past night is instead of reacting to these things, to observe them, there is pain, observe, go into it, face it, because that will make you stronger. So what, is this kind of like a conscious detachment? Emotionally detaching from, like an observer? You are detaching from reacting to it. Okay. It is how it is, why create a craving something that is so temporary? Why create a aversion to something that is already there? Seems like the root of all addiction nearly. It is man, it is definitely the path out of addiction. Wow. I had an eating disorder the first time that I went there, and I was doing a lot of drugs, leading up to this part of my life. The first time I went to a past night, and yeah I, that just, man it is perfect addiction therapy. It is, you know, they do a similar thing called cognitive behaviour therapy, CBT works in a very similar way to a past night, but this technique for people with addiction is phenomenal bro, it gets you out of there, it's the path, doesn't mean you come out in your first 10 day course but what you learn in the course is the technique that you can use every day for the rest of your life. It's also why when I'm talking to somebody, and someone else, and this is a big thing that a lot of people that follow my journey, I think value in the content I put out. How do you say so calm bro? How did you not, if that was me, I would have got so angry, I would have, you know, said this and said that, and for me it was just for past night. Anger comes but I have a choice to react to that, that really the anger comes after the sensation. The sensation of anger is generally heat, or tension, or tightness, and that can lead to anger very quickly, or you can just observe that for what it is and choose to respond rather than react blindly, so that it's a huge part of why I think I'm able to get through to people, I don't take their bullshit, and what I mean by that is they're trying to get me to react. Provoke a response out of you. And it always comes them down. Of course it does, because you're not responding on that energy and they can bring you down, or you can bring them up. So I just think this is a very valuable thing to teach, and not just to teach even just to practice, I'm committed to practicing every day at this point, which I have been back and forth in the past but now I think it's very important because for a lot of people, there's a lot of people following me online and I want to be the best activist and person, I can be the best representative I can be for those people to look up to. Because that's just the reality of my role right now, so there's a responsibility there to strive to be a good person. You've got a very big influence, you lead by example and you have influenced me as well with my advocacy too, just the way that you connect with people through that chill way I think it's super valuable to the movement and also some people can be turned off by certain approaches and they come to you and you sort of sweep them up with your it's almost like you draw people in and people don't feel attacked you're really understanding it's almost like the energy you generate when you speak as well isn't aggressive I'm more assertive and can sort of put people on their back foot but it's really good to be conscious of how the message is landing on people. Yeah, if I thought it, I've tried other ways and if I thought those other ways were better for me I would continue to do them to do whatever felt that was working best but for me this is by far proven to be the most effective way of reaching the heart of mind of people. I think when you attack somebody or they feel attacked you force them to put up their defenses and that is a barrier between what you're trying to tell them and it hitting them where it needs to hit them so yeah this is something I'm going to be focusing on practicing because I think it's just going to help me be a better activist and you know hopefully continue to show people that this is an effective way of promoting animal rights and also it's a way that helps us because when you're consistently generating aggression and hostility towards other people that is going to lead to you feeling frustrated, feeling negative emotions, feeling like you don't want to do it it's not as good having maybe less effective interactions that maybe make you feel like what's the point and so yeah it just comes down to effective communication and living it because we're asking everyone to be compassionate to everyone that's what we're saying, be compassionate to everybody including pigs, cows, chickens and fish Dr Martin Luther King said the means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek so to me that means you want a compassionate world you better show how that's done because a lot of people don't really know and so yeah I'm still trying to grow and compassion every day man everyone so you're not a person you didn't have one specific thing that you took away I had two big things they were mainly related to the technique actually the first thing was that it was a completely different course to any other course I've ever done it's taken me this long excuse me a second it's taken me this long Please meditate now allow me to meditate it's taken me this long man nine courses to understand this technique it's just ridiculous because it's so simple my mind just made it so much more complicated than it has to be it's as simple as I already said if all you're doing is looking at your sensations and just being accepting with whatever you find you're doing vipassana and this is where I got confused I thought vipassana it was something special if I was doing vipassana there'd be great vibrating sensations like no you could be doing vipassana and feel numb but you're still doing the technique and that's all you need to remember to do it's not about getting if you have pleasurable sensations it means you're progressing and if you have negative painful sensations it means you're regressing not at all the way that those sensations manifest is completely irrelevant to where you're at on your journey towards enlightenment or whatever reducing suffering in your own life it's totally irrelevant so that was a big lesson for me to stop judging my sensations and that's what I was doing because yes I'm doing well I finally shook that off to nine courses and um nine courses a long time so yeah so learn from James' mistakes you don't have to sit there for nine courses this is one of the big things I was doing obviously you meditate you do the technique you scan through your body but then you just start thinking about something and then you come back and I do one of two things you came back I came back to meditation so I was judging my return or I'd come back and be like damn you've gone for so long you're here to meditate bro get back to work and judge it as well and this time I started coming back and just no judgement just going straight back into the technique I think that helped me a lot and um man what's the other thing that I learned um yeah I guess I guess there were probably the two main things bro yeah it was just you know helpful to come to that and now I feel like you know different to ever before I am spending more time with some awareness inside my body far more frequently before I'd be like okay I better meditate then I'd sit down and I'd do that technique and then I'd walk away and I'd leave it in my meditation spot almost when I feel like I'm walking around with it a little more I'm talking to people and I'm talking to people I'm very conscious I'm very there but I also have some awareness inside and so much like being aware outside now I have some awareness of what's going on inside and that awareness anchors you into the present moment it anchors you into your own personal inner reality and it gives you the opportunity to just be accepting and that brings a lot of inner peace and that's what I'm feeling now more than ever a level of inner peace that hasn't been there before it radiates it radiates because when I saw you last night as soon as I start talking to you you have a calming presence you're generating a calming presence because I'm a very obviously I'm an intense guy I used to be more intense I've calmed down a bit but when I'm just having conversations I always leave feeling a little bit more chill and a little bit like you're radiating this true energy so I think there's definitely a knock-on effect of changing yourself and how you affect people around you yeah totally man I think that that's awesome here and I appreciate that because you know like I'm so far from perfect I did nine courses and I probably need to do 9000 more but um I can definitely see that this technique is benefiting me so much like 10 days 10 days prior to the meditation and then thinking about 10 days after the change is just so significant and it's just from practicing this thing over and over again it's nothing special I didn't change my diet do anything different I just added this and it's such a simple thing it's really not complicated any religion can do it's really just so beautiful man and so and yeah I think that you know that energy goes a long way especially when you're trying to reach the heart of mind of people you want them to feel comfortable in your presence you want them to feel I want them to feel like family bro I want everyone to feel like you're my brother you're my sister we're family I'm here just to share something anything good I can do for you I want to do that for you and I hope you reciprocate and feel the same towards me and if not that's okay that's not going to change how I feel towards you amazing it's I think the way we view other human beings is like we can either separate us or bring us together and if we realize like we're all in this together I've just realized something before you have and I want us to all join hands together and try to you know we're all against it like have you ever met anyone who is for what happens to the animals on the screen like they're all oh yeah that's bad but it's just always these practical things so when people go oh your views I'm like these aren't my views most people share the same views as we do they're just completely acting out of alignment with that so I think like for me personally after I had some PTSD therapy for the last year after looking at people with more love they're more like wow they're human beings and then it's like more complex animals and they've been taught this lie and they're acting out of alignment with their heart usually like for the most of the vast majority of people that's helped me sort of bridge the gap with people and I'm walking around at the train station I'm smiling at people I'm like wow we're human it's a connection I've lost and it's easy to be like looking at things from the animal's perspective all the time and they're humans are the devil it's almost like they're committing an act of evil that they don't know that they're contributing to so I think we have to be rational about this we can't just like generating all this hate towards people who are committing an unconscious act of evil like they don't know it's not evil if you don't know and it's not evil if you've been taught that it's okay since you're a child yeah it's very complicated it's not enough you're abusing an animal for fun like in your bedroom there's a dog there you know it's very complex and we need to look at it like all of its nuance and complexity yeah absolutely man I couldn't agree more there's a lot of broken people out there and we've all been conditioned in different ways and it's hard to break cycles and some of the best people I know sometimes do things that really aren't in alignment with who they are doesn't make them bad people and we're all striving to do better and like you said yeah we all need to like just join hands and be like we're all in this together what do you know this is what I know how can you help make this we all want a better world right more peace less vast okay so how can we share information to get us all to a better place veganism the funny this is the best group ever because everyone is welcome not only welcome we're like please join us it's not like oh we're vegans we want to be better than everyone no no you're not vegan enough to come into this vegan group it's like no please we desperately want everyone into this group we know it's going to be better for everybody for everything for this entire planet for countless reasons please join us here's some of the reasons why I can continue telling you more and more of all day long we can turn this into a 10 hour podcast but yeah it's it's about realizing that yeah you great man I'm so glad that you learned it before so many people you learned about veganism first and and different things cool I've learned stuff from so many other people who who are unaware about veganism it doesn't mean you go vegan and you're perfect and you know everything this is a thing that you had the privilege of understanding before at this point before the vast majority of the rest of humanity where we're in the top few percent as a few percent or something of vegans out there and it only makes sense that yeah this rule I hope in every for all the reasons we've already mentioned this was spread to 100 percent of humanity and the people that it doesn't you know there's always going to be certain people that are wired a little bit differently but the fact is that this is an alignment with the way that the vast amount of logical nonviolent people thing this is an alignment with that and so yeah it just makes sense that they'll also find the information that we found realize that it is logical and the right thing to do and then as all these other factors come into play convenience and cost off their objections they'll join the club and they'll join the party and that's only good man we then yeah the more the better so that's from a vegan advocacy perspective and hoping that people take the message and make personal change what do you think of civil disobedience and direct action as a way of shaking the system from above and forcing the conversation into the you know the public arena what do you think of like disrupting the system with protest chaining people chaining themselves up and you know blocking the roads and what do you think about it's excellent I can't say that I agree with every single I wouldn't say that all activism is necessarily good activism but I very very rarely see something that I don't think overall is a good thing I think that disrupting and you know causing a disturbance in the norm that forces the issue on the table forces people to think forces a conversation to be had makes people realise there's a choice what side are you on there are sides most people don't even know they have a choice what side are you on the side that is ending the animal Holocaust or the side that is funding the animal Holocaust you're on one of them maybe you didn't know before today now you know the issues on the table are you going to make a choice which choice makes more sense to you I think it's excellent man and I'm so grateful there's people out there doing that but I'm also I don't want everyone to do that there are so many there are countless different ways people can use their skills their talents their their individuality their uniqueness to promote animal rights to spread the vegan message and I hope that we use every single avenue available including civil disobedience and disruptions amazing so I really appreciate you sitting down and chatting with me James and I just want to say that you continue to inspire me you always have inspired me and don't ever give up no matter what and what I've been saying is that I will make it like a requirement that I will never give up because of any struggles so I hope you feel the same way because you're a valuable valuable shining light to this movement and I don't think it would be the same without you here so please just keep going and realize that you inspire more people than you realize and including other activists in the movement and yeah just keep going brother thanks so much brother I really appreciate that of course you inspire me in so many ways as well man and the way that you continue to level up and step it up is you know a page a page that I hope every activist takes from your book man you're doing such an amazing job I'm very grateful to we're so lucky to have the means we do to be able to spread the love and spread the message and I'm really glad that it's being taken received well and yeah I've been through many struggles man there's been times where I'm sure a lot of people a group of people certain people wish that I would quit and try to get me to quit in different struggles and I'm so grateful at the time that was so hard so hard man really forced me to look at myself question myself why am I doing this I'm so grateful for that because the answer was so clear I'm doing this for all the right reasons and I'll continue to do it for those reasons and because those reasons are not about me there's no struggle that I can go through that will stop me fighting for them so I don't worry about that without the adversity there'll be no character building without the struggle you can't get stronger you know and I think that there are people who are most built to take you know the hard times I put there for a reason so yeah that's one reason I feel like you've been frosted into the forefront of this movement so yeah I think that we can all you know that's yeah that was a time where five years ago I was knowing near the person that I am now in terms of what I've been through and the growth I've had and you know there's so many I was the worst public speaker I knew for example in high school so I guess yeah the lesson there is that you know I remember looking up to activists thinking how do you say it like that my god I wish I had the words to articulate the vegan message I'm not helping anybody go vegan with the way I say things and now people say the exact same thing to me you know anybody who's listening to this you have growth coming and just continue to put yourself first of all create your clear intention what is it that you want to contribute to this well how do you want to live why are you doing this like what do you want what do you want to do with your life and then accept opportunities that push you out of your comfort zone that's how you'll grow say yes to things that you know are going to be hard that you know are going to make you uncomfortable and then you'll start becoming comfortable with those things and then say yes to some new discomforts that will help you grow as well and pretty soon you know the more you do that the more value the more value you'll be able to bring and you know and then that means the more vegans that will be out there so and we can change the world together like that yeah well you know that's the beauty too man you know for example I met a guy last night who said yeah I've watched your videos a few years ago now I'm an AV organizer and I can do this and do that I'm like cool and guess what I bet you're now getting those kind of what you're saying to me I'm sure people are saying that to you now as well you said well actually yeah this is that and you know it's just paying it forward I have people did that to me I'm just repeating and sharing the things that I learned from the people before me and there's so many of them and you know we just all we're like candles that light each other up and it turns into a big like fire that engulfs the world a good fire a happy fire of peacefulness not like the fire that's burning in the Amazon to you know deforest the Amazon for beef production how crazy is that you know what it is it's the it's the rain that comes down on that fire wow and we're all droplets there we go you know analogy to use the vegan fire movement it's crazy but you know one thing before we finish is that when the lungs of the earth are on fire that gives the whole world a sense of urgency that they just don't get from you know arts and chickens are suffering in a cage so I think as terrible as that is this might be the wake up call the world needs absolutely I couldn't agree more I'm very glad to hear the climate scientists come out and say 12 years 12 years are you listening it's not long we're in agreement that in 12 years if we don't do something drastic to change we're gonna have to be faced with a climate emergency that is gonna displace millions of people and people are gonna be going to war over resources like food and water I think that that's you know a it's a blessing in disguise for sure it's definitely more motivational when our survival is at stake we start listening that is pretty a couple of bit more absolutely yeah absolutely so you know as bad as it is it might just force things to happen sooner rather than later and hopefully in time I hope so brother thanks so much for joining me mate I love you so much and keep up the amazing work you're shining light thank you bro yours well I really appreciate it cheers brother bam boom boom baby sick we made that rain rain rain baby I'm great you're 444 should roll right now awesome man really good covered a lot of shit we don't need to talk you've already said it I'm glad we did that man I'm so glad we did that