 Welcome back to the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa. Our next conversation this morning is on the controversy concerning the electronic transmission of results. There has been conversations in the last few weeks about whether the independent national electoral commission will be allowed to transfer election results electronically or not. Of course, there was also the vote that went 52 in favor and of course 28 and 28 also absent. It was a little controversial in the last couple of days. This morning we are speaking with Toju Onaywu as an information technology expert who is joining us. Good morning and thanks for joining us Mr Onaywu. Good morning. It's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for joining us. All right, so let's start with the controversy. Some people have described it as disappointing that we are stuck in this place where there is still a conversation concerning whether or not to allow for electronic transmission of results. INEC had stated that they have the capacity to transmit electronically but the National Assembly doesn't seem to allow or agree with them entirely. So let's get your thoughts, first of all, on the controversy. Oh yes, it's pretty disappointing but not so strange. We are fond of as a people having, we need to keep going back and forth on doing what is right. This thing, the electronic transmission of results has been tested in some states already, elections by two elections and even parliamentary elections in some states and it works. So why are we going back and forth? So I'm disappointed but not surprised because of the way we are fond of going back and forth on what we normally just do. So yes, I'm disappointed but not surprised. Okay, there is the argument with regards to penetration of 2G and 3G technology to the most remote areas in Nigeria. So what information can you share with us with regards how far 3G technology is spread across Nigeria? All right, we're going to have to reconnect with him and get that question in. The conversation really is about how far and wide the penetration of 2G and 3G network is in Nigeria because that's one of the things that has been mentioned. There's also the security aspect. Some people have said these things can be hacked and they don't want results to be hijacked halfway through the process. Those are some of the concerns that have been stated and then some other people are saying that we don't want a situation where some areas get electronic transfer results and others do not get electronic transfer results. So we hope that Mr. Naewoo will be able to share with us how far, how well 3G and 2G penetration has spread across Nigeria to see if that argument actually works. I think last week we had spoken about the legal perspectives, how the Constitution already guarantees INIC the powers to make that decision and it has nothing to do with the National Assembly or with the NCC. But we hope that we can get that. Yes, indeed. This issue really is something I think we need to sort out as soon as possible because if we're still discussing these issues, even though people might say we have time, we have time, but we know how these matters can drag on, they are postponed and all of that. And before it seems like 2023 sneaks upon us, I hope it's something we can finally conclude this year because INIC has really statement saying they can authoritatively transmit election results electronically. But the lawmakers who should give them power, which I also find weird because INIC should be an independent electoral body. So the Senate and all the lawmakers, that should give them the power, has put that their ability to transmit results electronically in doubt. So it seems as a deadlock here. Analysts have brought up the possibility of INIC taking this to court to say we should be an independent election body. The Constitution guarantees our independence. So we should not be subject to an NCC concern if there's a security risk and all that. There are risks that our monies could be, accounts could be hacked. All these risks exist. That's why there should be risk assessments. That's why Nigeria has the funds to conduct elections. So we should be able to sort these out as soon as possible. Thanks for joining us again, Mr. Nair. Can you hear us? Yes, I can hear you. All right. So I was asking, what you can share with us with regards to G and 3G penetration across Nigeria. There's some arguments that that might be one of the reasons this might be difficult to pull off, that they are setting areas across the country that do not have adequate 2G and 3G network. Yes, yes. It's really not about technology. It's about what we want as a people. What is it that we want to do? We want to have credible elections. We want to have elections that way people go to court because we say, no, you have no case here. So we say that if you stop these incidents of having the judiciary giving victory to elections, that we want to stop that. So in other words, what do we want as a people? We want credible elections. So the technology is not the issue. Technology is available. As I said before, we've done this election, we've done transmission of results in some states. In some states, we've done elections and it was successful. So it's left for us to isolate the area where we do not have the technology, where the penetration is not good or it's not strong enough or it's not available and begin to talk to the telcos to have all of these areas covered. Besides that, I make a difference with that. You can actually upload the results when you get to areas where the signal is good and strong. It will link up. It will be uploaded straight to the servers. So like I said before, it is for us. It's for me. What is it that we want as a people? You understand? What do we want? What do we want to achieve? What do we want to do? So if we are based on our credible elections, the technology to make it happen is available in Nigeria. So the Telcos, over five or four or five of them are available. They will make it happen. We've done this in some states and it worked. So this whole thing of 2G not available, available. No, that is not the issue at all. Do we want to have credible elections? Do we want to have it in such a way that when people finish voting, the results are entered into the results sheets and are uploaded. They are credible. Not to let somebody go and change them. Is that what we want? Is that what we want? The technology is available. Mr. Aonaiwu, you are an ITS expert so you can answer this question with the fact. The Senate has cited NCC, Nigerian Communications Commission, and they are saying that there is a risk of hacking election results. From your IT perspective, do you think Nigeria can put in place the security infrastructure to ensure that the election results are not hacked? Do you think we have the capability to do that? Good. Thank you. Yes. It is like this. It's about cost benefits analysis, risk analysis. Looking at the risk involved in whatever it is you want to do, what are the risks involved in electronic transmission of results? Of course, there are technology risks, but can they be mitigated? The answer to that is yes. So yes, there are risks, but the risk can be mitigated. Everything IT, everything technology, there are trails, and you can put that. There are so many with IT gurus in INEC can get all these things sorted out. So there's no point going through it. But the point is that there are risks, but the risk can be mitigated. Besides that, whereby the action is eventually carried out, you can track the action, and you can even trace the action and also get the people who are responsible for the hack arrested or prosecuted. Even the results that they want to upload by whatever means they choose to do it, you can even identify that there are IT trails. Whatever you do, there are trails. So there are risks, yes. The risk can be mitigated, yes. And the risk also, in this case, the benefit far to the risk, in my opinion, in having the results transmitted electronically. Okay. So you're basically saying that Nigeria actually has the capability to transmit results electronically. Is that what you're saying? We doubt Nigeria has the capability, yes. When we talk about, can you break this down or make it as clear as possible? When we're talking about electronic transmission of results, what is the process really? Is it through text messaging or is it through the internet? What exactly do you mean? Okay. Now, what was done in those 10 elections, which I was part of, I was involved in, because it's my thing, that's why it's right, is this. I let set up the portal, okay? I let set up the portal for the result of the election. And I let give a link to their presiding of the electoral officers that after the counting of the results and the result that they entered into the results sheet by unit, by word, you go ahead and upload such to the, to a portal to a link that they've given to their agents, to their presiding of the electoral officers. So that's exactly what it is. So that's the point. So the results are entered into the results sheet, then you take a snapshot, a picture of it, then you upload it. In other words, you just take a picture and upload it. Like in JPEG, you just upload the picture. It's a JPEG really, so that you cannot edit it. You can make it PDF if you want to, but you also upload the JPEG and upload the results. It will capture the parties, the results, the people who signed the signatures, everything. So that's exactly what I need. That's the whole essence of electronic transmission. So from wherever you are, you can see the results. So that process is done from the World Collision Center to the Local Government Collision Center. So you definitely have the results uplinked already in the cyber space. So that's what it entails. Well, if you remember, right after the 2019 elections and the court cases that followed, there were, if you remember, after the 2019 general elections, the court cases that followed, there were conversations about the INEC server and if it was active during the elections or if it was used during the elections. Do you think we still will have that challenge if we decide to go forward with this? Does the server still exist? Was it the same server that was used in the other state elections? The electronic transmission result, like I explained before, is just saying you take a snapshot of the picture of your results, you upload it to a link, to like a web link. Exactly. Now, every one of these things are in one form or one cover or the other. So it's not like one particular server, it will have no problem. No, no, no. 2019, yes, the server was mentioned and we're a bit concerned about the server. It's the same thing. It's about security of your IT infrastructure, which I know is very, very well aware of. I would do everything I can to make sure that they are secure. In any case, they can be, you can track or any attempt to have or, you know, like I said, when it comes to technology, there are risks, but there are also different things you can do to ensure that the risk can minimize. And we are the eventual threats, eventually come six weeks. You can drill them, you can track them and you can do some renegotiation or whatever actions that were attempted or done. Okay, so also we know that the Senate said they are basing their decision on an NCC submission, which is that there's a risk attached when you transmit results electronically. Do you think that the NCC should be involved in election conversations? And also, if yes, why do you think they're not focusing on the solutions, you know, like you mentioned that the risk can be mitigated instead of the challenge? Well, you know, the questions are quite hard, but I would like to want to say the NCC has a refugee body. I think I'm listening to what Mola I read, some of the things that he died from NCC said. It was trying to give the penetration of 2G, 3G across the country, not really coming out to answer the question of whether it is yes or no, you know, it was a bit ambivalent. But the point of the matter is that I'm making saying that they've had conversations with the technology and the telecommunications providers and they have guarantees that by 2023 we'll be able to conduct this election, we're going to conduct the election and transmit the results electronically. I think we should believe IMF. They are empowered by law by the Constitution to conduct elections, and if they say that it can be done, so be it. And to argue then you really why all of this is not clear between IMF and NCC. I don't know, I think your guess is as good as smiling as to why all of this is. Some people are just afraid for, unnecessarily, because there's no point for this here. That's what I would say. Told you on IWU, thank you very much for your time this morning. Thank you. Thanks for speaking with us. All right, it's just pretty funny how we are in a country where there has been in the last, you know, three, four, five years, you know, there's been a lot of very brilliant strides with information technology, with startups, you know, some of them have been bought off for $200 million, if you remember. We have some of the most brilliant minds with regards to information technology in Nigeria, but yet we can't transmit results. No, we actually can. He mentioned we can. It's the will power at the end of the day. Yeah, you know, but there's people who feel like that we cannot. It just doesn't, and it makes, it gives more credence to people who say, well, this is really just about, you know, certain people who are scared about losing the elections, because there is no excuse. One of the questions you asked, the last question you asked, actually is where it's coming from. Why aren't we focused on how can we exactly, how can we solve this? We have all the resources that we should be able to put into focus. Because even with manual collation, manual transmission, there are risks, risks of loss of lives, ballot box, bookstatch. And we continue to use it. So those risks, there are risks anywhere you look at, manual, electronic. So it's, what do you think is the best, what's the best, what's the best challenge, what seems to be online, according to what these experts are saying. So really, we should focus on the solutions. And do we have the solutions? Yes. It's just the political will to implement them. That's what it seems like. A 25-year-old from many of the startups across 90, information technology startups across Nigeria today can solve this problem easy. It's not actually a problem, but since they've decided to make it a problem, any young person that works in the IT sector can simply solve something now. It's possible that many youth who have solutions say this, and maybe I've even pitched them, but you know, not hearing a word back. But the point is that it's a solution that we can solve. There's a problem that we can solve. All right, we'll take a short break. When we come back, we're celebrating women on a Monday morning, and that's because there is a new bank MD, Nigeria, and she's female. And so we're going to be having a quick conversation about that. And what more strides Nigeria needs to take with regards more women in positions like that. Stay with us.