 And it's our great pleasure to welcome Bobby McClelland from the Department of Business Innovation and Skills, Bobby as Deputy Director with responsibility for FE provision, and is now the policy lead on the area of reviews for post-16 education and training. So it's enormously valuable to have her perspective on what we're all doing to support that program of work. And then after her presentation we'll have questions and discussions will be joined by Bob Harrison up here on the panel. I don't think Bob needs very much introduction to this community but he's been involved in education throughout further education, higher education, supporting policy in government for well over 40 years. And he's an ambassador for Alt and was deeply involved in the Feltag process and right through from its inception through to taking it into implementation. So it's my great pleasure to welcome Bobby and then we'll come back for discussion questions. Thank you very much Diana. I'm really delighted to be here today. I wanted to talk to you about the reform of further education and in particular the proposed area reviews that are going to take place across England and within that the very important role that technology is going to play. So I'll just start with the context. You will have seen that shortly after the election government published its productivity plan fixing the foundations and within that it emphasised the importance of skills in particular the essential role of professional and technical education including to higher levels which probably haven't been filled as fully as the economy needs. And also the emphasis on actually meeting the government's target of three million apprenticeship starts over the life of Parliament. But of course all that is set in the context of also needing to secure huge public funding savings. So a very challenging financial context for all public services and no doubt the forthcoming spending review is going to be pretty tough on all of us. Alongside that there's also the commitment to actually simplify the funding system and of course encourage greater devolution of local commissioning and a greater role for leps and combined authorities in actually funding further education locally certainly adult further education. So in July we published a policy statement all around the need to reform post-16 education and training recognising that probably the current landscape is not affordable in the light of those financial constraints but at the same time needing to actually improve the quality of further education and build in those higher level skills access that isn't currently there. Earlier this week we published further guidance on the area reviews and this reaffirms our plans to undertake a series of reviews over the next 18 months with each review taking about three or four months. So what's their purpose? Well clearly it's we've already got examples of a number of colleges that are really in financial straits and so it's really important for the sake of learners and employers that we move to a position where we have institutions which are financially viable, sustainable, resilient and efficient and deliver maximum value to public investment. But as importantly it's also vital that they're delivering an offer that meets each area's economic and educational needs. So we want providers with strong reputations and greater specialisation in terms of focusing on those sector subject areas that are relevant to the local economy. We want providers who are able to deliver high quality and relevant education and training for all including those with special needs and those most distant from the workforce. And we want provision that reflects the changes in government funding priorities and local government priorities and future demand. So the guidance sets out the framework that we're intending to adopt through this approach, recognising that colleges and in the main this exercise is looking at further education colleges and sixth form colleges are independent autonomous organisations. It's about taking approach which is voluntary but set within a national framework where there's space for local flexibility. So we have a national steering group which will provide gateway to reviews and ensure consistency and boundary management and that national steering group will have on it David Collins our FE commissioner who will chair the group alongside representatives from other parts of government the FE and BEERS and the sixth form college commissioner and be supported by a joint delivery unit formed from the funding agencies and representatives from the department. The focus as I say is on general and sixth form colleges but it is possible for other major FE providers of post 16 education and training to opt into the process if they want to. Alongside looking at how we strengthen the existing institutional base the intention is to create a network of prestigious institutes of technology able to deliver those high level skills in the sector subject areas that are needed for local economies and there'll be further information published on those institutes later on and you'll recognise that the timing of this is quite interesting given that the spending review will be coming out in November but the attention will be to give more information about institutes in the next couple of months. The reviews themselves will be pretty consistent across the country and come from a high level to principled perspective based on evidence. So the intention is to do them consistently thoroughly and at pace making sure that they are locally steered and locally supported with the resources that are needed by the FE and sixth form college commissioners and a joint delivery unit made up of agency and departmental resources who will actually do the evidence gathering and analysis to enable the locally set up steering group to make the decisions. So who do you expect to sit on local steering groups? Well I've already mentioned David Collins and Peter Mucklow, they're the FE commissioner and sixth form college commissioners and their role is to make sure that there's consistency, quality and neutrality. We also expect the left to be on the steering group given their role in terms of economic development, making sure the business voice is heard and there is new responsibilities in terms of FE capital. We also expect local authorities to have a seat at the board, especially where there are combined authorities coming forward with new devolution powers and indeed in those situations we might expect them to chair the local steering group and they will be responsible for supporting the analysis of current and future educational and economic need. And most significantly would expect all the governing bodies to be represented through their chair, probably accompanied by the principal on the steering group. And their role will be to willingly participate in this, consider all the options, take decisions and clearly lead on implementation as it affects their institution. Alongside those key people will be the funding agencies for facilitating the delivery of the reviews. The department's role in setting the framework, facilitating access to advice, guidance and resources and undertaking national stakeholder engagement and communications and evaluation. As I've mentioned, other providers will be engaged in the process and certainly the analysis that will look at the supply across the area will cover all post 16 provision, including school six forms, higher education where that's relevant and independent provision. But in the case of large providers of further education, they may actually want to opt into the process. And of course, significantly, the local steering group must make sure it takes account of the views of other key stakeholders, especially learners and employers, and the staff working in the organization is concerned. In addition, we expect other players like Jisk and Ofstead and the Education and Training Foundation to play a supportive role in actually helping areas to actually fulfill the ambitions that they come up with at the end of the review. So we're starting from a very high level set of principles, which is focused on meeting the needs learners and employers and not from an institutional perspective. And in the guidance, we set out the sort of principles we want everybody to consider and apply. So visionary and strategic, open minded, best value, collaboration. And earlier I was talking to Bob about that. And, you know, I think we may be going back to former days in terms of the way collaboration used to work across the sector. The potential to consider all types of models that will work best for learners and employers, the importance of sound financial planning, recognizing that's a critical driver here. The importance of a strong evidence base that looks at both educational and economic need, and what the current supply side is delivering and how well and where, and how do people access it. And I've highlighted, because of today's conference, the very important message about embracing technology, whether that's in terms of improving access to curriculum, in terms of delivery of curriculum, and assessment and design of curriculum, but also in terms of back office, and other sources, like information management, which I think was the previous speech you had about what could be done to actually improve learner progression. There is obviously clear potential to look for efficiency through this as well. But it's important that the steering group has the right set of skills to do this. And as I've mentioned, there will be the resources available from the epic commissioner, and his deputies and advisors, and we're currently strengthening that team. Now these are experts in curriculum, in financial planning, in estates management, and they will be available to support the steering group in actually taking forward the review. Also really important to recognize other interests and cultures and the importance of diversity. Obviously, we want to learn as lessons and take account of lessons and to utilize the learning and development that's already well embedded in the sector. And it's important that we share those learnings and make sure that we take account of them as we take the reviews forward. So where are we now? A review will be triggered by going through the National Gateway. And as you may be aware, Birmingham, Manchester and Sheffield have already been announced. And we would expect to announce a further five areas before Christmas to start. And the ambition is to do all areas by March 2017. We think we can do that. Because if we have the commitment from local areas, they want to come on board. It's clear from the response we've had so far that, of course, this is challenging, but people are actively wanting to engage. Once a review's been triggered, we need to establish the local steering group. And then we expect over three, four months for there to be about five steering groups, each in turn looking at something slightly differently. So the first steering group would be very much focused on what is the economic context for the area? What is the educational supply? The next meeting would probably look in very great detail at what the curriculum is and how that matches against the needs. The third meeting is likely to look at what the estate and back office systems are and the opportunities for rationalisation around that. With the fourth meeting being around the options analysis. With the fifth meeting signing off wherever the area reviewers come out. It's critical to this will be the governing bodies and the role of governors and chairs in particular in driving this forward locally for their institutions of recognising the importance of looking at this from an area perspective will be critical. One of the ambitions we hope that will come out of this is that there will be that much stronger collaboration across all the stakeholders locally, including the colleges themselves, but also with the local authorities. And as some of you may have seen the UK Commission for Employment and Skills and the AOC recently published a report about local outcome agreements and how they might provide a really effective way of securing that collaboration and understanding about what needs to be delivered in a local area. So we're really optimistic that that will be one of the positive outcomes that come from this. One of the other things I should mention linked to this is that later on this month we will be publishing another consultation about the use of outcome measures in further education. That will be describing how those measures might be presented and used. And obviously we'll be welcoming feedback on that. Alongside that consultation will be another set of data on outcomes and in terms of these outcome measures there are about destinations into jobs and further learning, progression within learning and earnings. And there will be a data set published that provide a level which will be very interesting given the next sort of phase in the development of local outcome agreements because we would hope those outcome measures might inform that development. So that gives you the headlines but of course Bob and I will be very happy to take any questions. Thank you very much. Yes, I've got a microphone. Thank you very much. Well that was a comprehensive analysis of what's going on. A lot to cover but I think it provokes quite a lot of questions too. Bob could I ask you if you'd like to add something to that from your perspective before we move into question. Yes, thank you very much. I will just backtrack a little bit because I think Bizz have been very supportive if you remember. I just want to track back to Feltec if I can because I think Feltec has been a really important milestone in this journey. I've spent most of my life working in further and adult and higher education and the strength of further education has always been able to adapt and change according to the world changes and if you think about the history of further education where it came from I'm very proud to have worked in a college in Derbyshire where it was funded the first building was funded by the miners dropping a penny at the end of their shift on a Friday into a can and then when that built up enough they built two brick, two story in the centre of Chesterfield where they could teach the children during the day and then themselves at night so they didn't blow themselves up. So the history and roots of our sector are worked in Nottingham which is one of the area based reviews pilots. Nottingham was the people's college, I was vice principal there for five years, erected by voluntary contributions for the education and training of the working classes forever was the strapline and so you know I think just tracking back further education has a tremendous history of being able to be fleet of thought to adapt to change in industrial. Sadly I have to say despite investments by government in things like Vector and Elsis and lots of other agencies sadly the last 15-20 years I'm afraid further education has not been quite as fleet as far as it could be and there's lots of reasons and Diana you know you published widely about the constraints that the sector feels you know about off-stead and off-qual and all that and that's why Feltag why Matthew Hancock was keen to get Feltag off the ground before he got reshuffled and I remember him inviting me down Bobby if you don't mind me sharing this inviting me down and saying right okay I've read your articles I've read some of your tweets because he followed me on Twitter and I agree with you what can we do about it but there's no money and my view is well it's not about money we've had money thrown at and it's not about technology it's about hearts and minds it's about culture and that's why you know the Feltag recommendations are about nudging the culture and trying to act as a catalyst to make the sector as responsive as I feel it's been in its first you know 70 or 80 years of history so I think the Feltag foundations and I'll repeat probably one of the most commonly retweeted tweets James Clay's here somewhere which is those I think there was a big red herring about Feltag which is people thought it was about percentages about 10% or 15% or 20% it was never about percentages that was just a foil Nick Lambert's here somewhere it was his idea to get that I'd get the attention of principles and it would get the attention of the media. Did it get the attention of principles? Yeah yeah yeah it did and and I have no apologies for that because it did grab the attention but fortunately Nick Bowles came in after Matthew Hancock clarified that that was just really an indicator my tweet is and I'll stop now because I think this is important context and that I think the area-based reviews give us an opportunity to really catalyze the implementation of Feltag even faster now than it was before and it's this those FE providers that embrace the spirit of Feltag, the spirit of Feltag will not only survive but thrive and I think in the context of these area reviews that's even true now than it was when I first tweeted it. That's great thank you Bobby anything you just want to respond to on that? Okay great That's really really you know having been the policy leader picking up with Nick working to me until he went off to disk I absolutely think that the messages in Feltag are the right ones that we need to actually we can get some representatives behind that in the area review process and of course also has been involved in that process all the way through from the inception of Feltag which has been really valuable. So can I ask if there are questions from the audience now? Could I ask about equality we had a keynote from Laura Chenevich this morning really emphasizing the extraordinary importance for society of equality and how globally and in the UK over the last ten years that is getting worse how the UK on some measures is at the bottom of the statistics in Europe now Effie Bob was suggesting historically has played a fantastic role in fostering equality in education and the quality but over the last ten years that has really been under attack and have had problems so I didn't see anything explicitly about equality in your presentation Bobby could you say is that being addressed how is that being addressed? Certainly it's one of the principles and perhaps I need to put the word equality in there because we talked about making sure it meets the interest of cultures of different people and so that was about equality and diversity and a recognition that you know so the principles are around that in terms of you know the roles that the review will need to consider is you know how is it going to meet the needs of all learners and so I think it's inherent within it but I think you're right we probably could do with being a bit more explicit about it and I'm very happy to take that away. Can I add something about the whole issue of I was in law and as Laura says this morning I was struck by it and one of the side effects of Feltec was something called eTag which is not in Bobby's department so I couldn't be critical of the DFE and she can close her ears now because unlike Bobby and the civil service in BIS who get it now and are doing something about it Feltec was more traction and effort going in the FA and sadly in the DFE the eTag recommendations the one which Maron and Diana and Angelant Fallon had been detwining and lots of other people played a part sadly lie unopened in the minister's inbox I'm not sure whether Nick Gibb can actually open his inbox yet but that's another story if it was in a book it probably would be a lot easier. I chaired the equity, equality and connectivity group and some of the key recommendations of their child with what Laura said this morning because I think there's a really strong issue whether it's FE or schools and everything it cannot be right that your access to the world of learning and knowledge depends on whether your school or college has a fast broadband connection firstly and secondly whether it has been a good Wi-Fi connection and thirdly whether it's got the staff with the skills to allow you to access that world that cannot be right and there's a massive equity issue but we have to start with connectivity and Matthew Hancock is now in the cabinet office and he's got a brief with Ed Vasey for digital digitisation of government and I know they are very keen to extend broadband capacity especially for educational institutions but it could do is being speeded up a little bit so I think that you're right about equity and it applies not just to FE and I think there's a massive issue about connectivity and equity. Bobby did mention Jessica and I'm sure Jessica will be making that point in the review process. James, you got the conch up? Yes, can I just remind people please to see who they are James? James Clay, I'm the chair of ALT's FE committee. You know, it's great we see the phrase it's been bolded, embrace technology. Are we confident that the steering groups actually know what that is and what it means? I mean they may say oh embrace technology I'm going to cuddle my laptop in terms of doing it. I mean because I think there's an assumption sometimes when people say go and do technology you can do it. We assume that a steering groups know how to do it, we assume that governors know how to do it, we assume that principals, senior managers and teachers all know how to go and do technology, well if that's the case they'll probably be doing it anyway. I think there is a kind of a knowledge gap there so are we confident that they could be able to embrace the technology as part of these area reviews? I think are we confident or as confident as we can be and we're putting in place the mechanisms to support that. So we are doing a lot of work with the leadership across the whole of the FE sector in terms of governance and management and leaders more generally. GISC has demonstrated and within the guidance that I mentioned that's been published have an annex specifically about the role that they might play in supporting every area and I expect them to be engaged in every area. The FE commissioner and FE advisors have been briefed fully on the sort of resources that they might be able to expect from GISC in terms of support as they go through their thinking. It's essential that this is built in from the outset. So I have high expectations of it happening and if it's not happening I would be very disappointed and we will be kicking up and making a fuss if it's not considered properly in every review. When you consider the scale and ambitions of what this is doing immediately you think look how technology could help. Bob you want to? No I agree with Bobby but I also understand what James is saying. I'm probably less confident than Bobby is at this moment in time. I think there is an issue that GISC have got to face. I don't know if we've got any people here from GISC other than Nick of course but he's just on an expedition into GISC. There's some good work coming out of the learning futures project on governors which the heart of Worcestershire College have done. I think you might want to look at that. I think that's going to be disseminated soon. They had 25 grand I think to work on out to the governor because a lot of that James is about governance. Am I confident that principals and heads of leps and everything? No I'm not because I think a lot of them are still stuck in the analogue mindset. They're still stuck in the Effie and training. Will they be able to do I think yes with some help and with some importance with some challenge. I think there might be some capacity issues at GISC. I think they need to up their game a bit because if what Bob has said this morning and this is brand new off the press for you that we've got you know four area reviews going on at the moment. There's another five in the pipeline and there's another few more stacking up behind them as well. Now I think you know let's say there's 20 30 area reviews going on over the next 18 months. That's an enormous resource that's going to be needed in order to do that in order to support and challenge the mindset. But I think there's just one more point I'd like to say on that which is I think that'll take an enormous amount of resource. And you this is a narrative that I've rehearsed many many times and I'm really pleased that the biz are taking legal advice and trying to find something out of this because my personal view is we have too many assets trapped in land and buildings which are underused and I'll just share this anecdote with you. Last summer I drove every day from Ermston to Rochdale to see my mum who was sadly dying and I drove past Rochdale College, Rochdale sixth form college which is a seventh floor for story 23 million pound building funded by the EFA and 150 yards down the road is Hopwood Hall College. I just had an 11 million pound external fascia thing for the whole of June, July, August and some of September both buildings were a hundred percent empty. That cannot be right that taxpayers money is trapped in assets that are underused like that and my argument has been and and biz have taken it on and they're getting the proper advice from the Treasury if we can sell off the underutilized underused land and buildings and reinvesting workforce skills and digital infrastructure then I think we can create a further education which has adapted to the needs of the digital future not the industrial past. And the review is looking at costings and new models so that would be on the remit. Bob you wanted to come back? Yeah just a couple of points on what Bob was saying it's really important to recognize that the reviews will not be taking an institutional focus so this will not be led by you know sort of the institution saying oh yes I can't do this because I've got no history in doing this it's got a lot more you know more strategically than that so the review will be looking at the needs in the areas and obviously in most areas you would expect some of the colleges to be well ahead of the game in terms of technology. The point that Bob was saying about what the department's doing I mean my expectation is that we will put in place some draw down support advice and guidance which will mean that not every college has to go through the same set of processes in thinking through how to adopt technology how to do due diligence how to get rid of the states that there should be some practice around to actually support them in doing that so that we don't have to start afresh with every single review. James do you want to come back? Yeah just kind of reflecting on what the three of you have said was you know in terms of supporting these steering groups is that you know one of the things I suspect they would probably like to see some kind of aspirational model of what the future will look like in terms of when they have embraced technology this is this is the learner experience this is the staff experience this is the managers this is the leaders this is the governor's experience because then they know what they're working towards I think the word that's just have a little bit of an issue with the words let's just do the technology without having an understanding of what that then actually looks like because without that picture that aspiration that kind of goal of where we're going I think was just still muddy around in terms of doing little bits having that vision could be really important and when you come to the specifics one of the things you mentioned in relation to equality Bobby was special needs and there's an enormous amount that technology can do in special needs so having that sense of what are we really aiming for here the inclusion of that kind of diversity and support for those kinds of it comes back to the from this morning's keynote the equity yes you know in terms of understanding what the the infrastructure issues that required I know I think a blog tweeted this morning about you know why isn't I mean I've just been in a cafe across the road and luckily I had edu Rome so I had connectivity but why isn't edu Rome across the whole of Manchester in terms of doing it why aren't universities and colleges working together in order to provide you know ubiquitous wi-fi regardless whether you're in a library a museum in a college in a school in a in terms of doing it so you can pick it up wherever you are well there was another aspirational word in there which is collaboration and that might be a good one to talk about because that could be so important now are you indicating yeah can I just say just add something about is there a further question anyone anyone online can I just say something about assistive technology okay would you like to give us some from our virtual participants so we've had quite a lot of live tweeting particularly of some of the principles so thank you all be forgiving us that briefing because clearly a lot of people are interested in in hearing what you have to say one of the sort of common threads is that obviously this is an area of view looking at the whole of the sector and technology is only a small part in some ways but on the other hand for student success and employer requirements technology and digital skills and literacies are becoming more and more important one of the things we've heard over the last three days is how much people innovate despite all of the pressure they're under but there is a lot of pressures on the system what do you think what are your thoughts coming to a community like this what can we do to really contribute to that process constructively to make sure that we aren't just looking at technology for efficiency for driving progress that we have to have but also really putting learner success in the digital workplace in the future ahead do you have any suggestions any ideas for us or any wish lists of how we can contribute well I thought the point about what does success look like is really fundamental to this and certainly that's I was a bobsits on our advisory group which met yesterday and we were talking about that and we'll be thinking through what does success for an area review look like in terms of from a learner from an employer from a college from a local area and left or local authority and from government's perspective and looking at all of those and what can the people in this audience and and who are listening in do I think they should want to engage with this and actively think about what it might mean for their institution what digital opportunities are there available now and what would they like to see going forward and what is it stopping happening for individuals at the moment and and in terms of the services that they're able to offer employers and what how could it be changed so actually thinking through innovatively so that they can contribute to this one of the exercises that will be done automatically at the start is to invite each institution to say what do they think they're good at what do they think they're less good at and what are the opportunities from doing this and I think there's a chance for everybody to contribute towards that great thank you and just to follow up there's a question from one of our viewers online and from Howard Scott he's an FE lecturer English and maths and one of the things there's been a lot of debate about is those Feltag recommendations and how different colleges are at very different scales ends of the scale rather some very advanced some at the beginning and I think this is a question for Bob and for you and Diana possibly jointly what do we think is our ambition in terms of time scales to really try and catch everybody up to a you know a level of maybe we can call it Feltag aspirations sort of where we'd like to be and maybe you know if you will have some thoughts on that that was one of our online questions thank you have a time scale in mind Bobby what for delivery of Feltag over how many years did you see this building I think it's ongoing because I think I think technology will always develop won't it so it's you know obviously I would like to be ambitious as part of this program of reform that we can secure as much change as possible through this process because we can drive it in an area wide way but also thinking strategically and nationally and so having players like Bob and Diana influencing what we're doing is really important but I think we should be as ambitious as we possibly can in terms of thinking about how technology can be used and recognizing that digital inclusion is really important in this country the fact that there are potentially what 11 million people who have got very basic digital skills or no digital skills at all and the opportunity that this change has in supporting that it's absolutely right they will be it has to happen and evolve at the time that's true because you have to keep adapting to the changing conditions in which we're working all the time but if we have measures of success they will have time scales related to them so we do have to think in terms of how do we get to these aspirational places we want to get to and I think one of the things that the technology community can can offer is to say something about how we get there because what technology gives us is a much more connected world a world in which professionals can collaborate can build on each other's work can share ideas those are some of the the means of making progress that this community is is exploring and I think if we have the chance to there will be a consultation process we will have the chance to contribute to that consultation process that could help it's it's so there's the the ultimate end user measures but there's also the measures of what kinds of things do you need in place to enable that to happen to enable us to sustain this progress to keep adapting to keep being a learning system as we go certainly there will be that consultation on the outcome measures and I think that would be a good opportunity for this audience to actually engage with that and think about those are the outcomes that we want for individuals but how do we get there along the way so really welcome people's views on that can I agree with marin the uh it's a question microphone to where's the microphone thank oh you got it yeah I have a question thank you um we'll borrow OCR it's a bit of a selfish one but um we're delivering a program that comes from a biz jcp project for delivering maths and English into colleges and um an issue that all the colleges have is on the uncertainty over their funding at the moment with the um the provision coming through the let process and that kind of stuff um with another review coming in in that has another couple of years to come through to conclusion that that uncertainty over funding um could actually cause everybody to um live in suspended animation in terms of investment in new technologies and new programs and and that kind of forward thinking um engagement that we're trying to not just um not just introduce but build on um do you have any idea how much clarity all the organizations and stakeholders will have over the funding models in this interim period the spending review will be critical in this in actually confirming the um the likely public funding going forward uh and i suppose it i recognize it is an issue i mean i think it that is um the investment is needed in in something that economically relevant that's going to deliver high quality education how can it not be valued for money whether it needs to be absolutely site specific i'm you know you may be able to look at opportunities for you know investing in equipment investing in technology investing in information management which i know you heard about earlier today those sort of things that can apply and are non site specific maybe something that actually something that people should be thinking about at this moment in time recognizing that the spending review will give us clarity about public funding going forward okay thank you can i can i i think uh the technology is part of the solution to those problems rather than another problem in itself uh and i think the english and math is a good good example i think uh if i'm honest i think the the biz and the et or the etf focus on english and math has been uh very much specifically about teachers rather than about learning i'm going to give a plug here now for a ufi trust project that we funded called at citizens maths and and i think to some extent if we flip it round and say well instead of technology being seen as an extra burden or something to add on to all this process or hold up as you said because of the uncertainty i think the providers who will thrive will be those who've already started along that journey and recognize that technology actually is this part of the solution to their problems rather than the problem itself well that brings us to an interesting dilemma for this process because in order to get that change sometimes you do have to actually put some new investment in now the current situation where it's so difficult for people to invest because it's very hand to mouth they're being caught they're having to do immediate efficiencies this is an ambitious program of ultimate change is it feasible to do that in a context of no money of being unable to help people make that change being able to invest the time the effort the learning it takes to do it well to make it sustainable to make it ultimately adaptable that is a dilemma i recognize the dilemma but uh i think the fact is that working together um you know we've got the lets local authorities as i've mentioned the education training foundation jisc and others supporting the process the colleges themselves you know the point that Bob was making that there are assets in the system that aren't being used as effectively as they should be um and and of course i can't say anything about funding more generally in advance of the spending review so um but the fact is that i think this is a program that has galvanized support in challenging times because it's needed it's got to be done we can't not do it yeah so i think everyone will probably accept that if it were called an investment review rather than spending with you they are much more comfortable with idea because it is it's about using all those it is better i mean it is about investment and can i just say about the thing then what we've been really careful to try and do with the language is because it you know as it has been a teacher all my life and live with teachers and all that the kiss of death with fe teachers if they think investing in technology is going to mean it's going to cost them their jobs and i'd like to put a different spin on the word efficiency because efficiency immediately in some people's minds thinks that's less well actually my view is if we take some of the assets that are currently trapped in those land and buildings if we invest them in digital infrastructure if we invest them in a workforce who's capable of exploiting that digital infrastructure and the motivation of learners efficiencies might actually come from getting more learners that stay in the system better get a better learning and more outcome progression and dare i say maybe more teachers as well but there'll be teachers with a different skill set than perhaps most of the ones that we've currently got in further education and i spend a lot of time in fe colleges talking and speaking and running staff development and i think there is a major realignment of the skills base necessary and that means it doesn't mean the investment and let's let's get rid of one myth that david collins the fe inspector sadly i don't think deliberately but put out in one of his pieces online and blended learning is not cheap it's not the cheap option it needs investment it may lead to efficiencies but those efficiencies will become from a greater number of learners staying in the system longer and progressing better i would put it much more strongly than that bob it does need to efficiencies when you plan it appropriately and in the context of fe and teachers have to learn from each other there are so many ways in which they can make their own lives much easier to run with their students and get much more out of it for their students efficiency is a very important good concept for the sake of making stuff better for the learners but it's so often associated with just cuts and everything's getting worse and you're you're working hand to mouth so you can't do anything new so that's that's i think a very important dilemma and if we can if we can embrace that sense of moving to a new place and enabling people to to get there i think that would help an awful lot do we uh yes we do we have another question over here James Clay again you don't have to say your name again chair of the fe committee for all um i mean one of the interest listening to you they're going to talk about efficiencies and here's a simple one for example i know of too many teachers who come into fe for the first time who suddenly discover that they're going to have to completely create their curriculum for that year you know and often excuses come in oh we've changed our syllabus we've changed our our examining board we've changed this as far as i'm aware the cardiovascular system hasn't changed much in the last 100,000 years as far as i'm concerned Pythagoras's theorem hasn't changed since he said a square plus b square d equals c square all these kinds of things why for example can we not create the systems and mechanisms that allow us to share and collaborate on content and resources and activities and ideas across the whole of the sector you know i remember it's actually something i think you said Diana and she said why isn't teaching more like research yeah well we we share and build knowledge together that's that's the point of it but that's a very important issue the open education resources because that's what enables us to to to operate much more efficiently and i think one of the things that bobby was talking about was responding to local needs now that has the implication of potentially changing your curriculum you've got to teach some new things we've got to teach them in new ways in order to equip your graduates for the workforce requirements so that kind of thing will be extremely important you've got to suddenly switch or extend or change your curriculum in some way you've got to be able to use those open education resources and of course this provides lots of yes exactly exactly available yes there are repositories it is possible to do that people have to be helped and nurtured into doing that process Merle I think you've got some more tweets well we've had quite a lot of tweets I think quite a few people are also referring to some of the new things that have been launched at this conference including the developing successful student staff partnerships guide and that just launched at the conference so a shout out to them because that's one of the resources that is obviously going to help providers work in partnership with learners to meet all these new requirements and I think north of border in Scotland we've also had the SQA launching a new open repository which is going to help open sharing of resources so I think there is a lot of the sector is doing I'm very aware that we're out of time so I know Diana will probably wrap up the discussion in a minute but before you do Diana I wanted to say but I'm really grateful that you came because all of us in our community we obviously read based consultations you know and we try and respond to the best we can and if we're very fortunate to get invited then we also go and come and meet you in London and I expect that this is one of your first experiences of our community face to face so I want to thank you on behalf of our community for coming and actually joining us today because I think a lot of learning technology when you just see it online or on paper you don't get the flavour of it so hopefully together we'll be able to provide you with some helpful input to take back to the department so again from all of us here thank you very much oh thank you I'm going to hand you over yes a quick final word from Bob and then from Bobby I don't think anybody could ever accuse me of not being critical of government in the past but I have to say since with Matthew Hancock and Feltag and with Nick Boles who's picked up and I think because of the continuity that Bobby and our colleagues have provided I think these area-based reviews are the catalyst that will reinvigorate Feltag and spur it on to make it even greater contribution and I think James is right I mean I've got a clear view of the vision in my head about what further education might be where my kids are going to look at my headstone and hopefully they'll be able to say me dad played a part in that perfect well thank you I really enjoy being here and I yeah I think it's been really helpful to hear the questions and certainly will take away a lot of thinking and I'm going to enjoy going around and looking around the the centre downstairs thank you very much I'm just speaking at you okay so it's been so valuable that's why I'm so happy to have you here you know the face-to-face dialogue ultimately even this connected age it still has some power so thank you very much indeed for coming to join us and we look forward to being able to engage with you yeah thank you will you join me in thanking