 As designers, we can often be our biggest critic. We always have those voices in our head preventing us from doing our best work. In this episode, you're going to learn how you can overcome those struggles and in general, be kinder for yourself and your surrounding. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I am Natalia and this is the service design show number 105. Hi, I'm Marc and welcome to the service design show. This show is all about empowering you with the most effective skills and strategies so you can design services that win the hearts of people and business. And the guest in this episode is nobody less than Natalia Agudalo. These days Natalia works at a design agency, but she has a long track record of being a design teacher, a very respected design teacher. And in that career, she has seen the struggle that many designers face. And often that struggle comes from not being able to separate yourself from the thing that you create. And that creates a lot of mess with regards to anxieties, to fears, to imposter syndrome. And that basically prevents you from giving your full talent to the world. In this episode, we're going to talk about how Natalia by herself is dealing with these struggles, how you can break free from this. So at the end of this episode, I can guarantee that you'll have gained a lot of wisdom on personal growth with relationship to design. I think this is an area that we don't talk about enough. You focus a lot on the craft aspect of design, but not so much on the personal growth. And that's what is store in this episode. Conversations with people like Natalia are super inspiring, but they also give you practical advice. And if you want to make sure you don't miss out on any of the future conversations, click that subscribe button because you'll find a new video here on this channel at least once a week. That's all for the intro. And now let's jump quickly into the chat with Natalia Agudelo. Welcome to the show, Natalia. Welcome, Mark. Welcome. Yeah. Nice to be on the show. Nice to be. I'm a bit shaky. So we'll have fun in this episode 105, which is a prototype of the new conversation for me. Natalia, I have to be honest. You've been on my list to invite you on the show for quite a long time, because at least two or three other guests have sort of recommended you. And it was about time to get you to get you on the show for the people who haven't looked you up yet, who haven't checked your link in profile. Could you give like a brief introduction, who you are and what you do? I now work at the service design consultancy in Oslo, Norway called Hallogen. But I think if anyone talked about me, it must have been one of my students, former students now, hopefully friends and colleagues. So I worked for many years, mostly of my career as a design lecturer, both in Colombia and here in Oslo. We have a new element in the show, which I haven't prepared you for. So this will be fun. It's called a 60 second flash question round. I have five questions for you and the challenge for you is to answer as fast as possible without thinking too much. And I'm going to cheat because I don't remember the questions by heart. But there we go. So Natalia, what is always in your fridge? Cheese. Cheese. Okay. Which books are you reading? Currently, the second book from the heat hikers guide of the galaxy, to the galaxy, the restaurant at the end of the universe. What superpower would you like to have? Influence. No, what was it? I thought about it. It's an evil superpower. Thinking into people's mind, being able for them to do whatever I want. Okay. Rain washing. What did you want to become when you were a kid? Famous. And now you are. You're on the show. Final question. What was your first encounter with service design? I think it was 2007. And we were talking, we were moving. The department I was working with in Colombia, the design department, was shifting from industrial design to design. And then they changed from industrial design to products. And then in the in the framework, it was like, yeah, we're defining products as platforms for exchange of value. And those could be objects, experiences or services and all like service. And then I started this down this rabbit hole. 2007 was about the time that I also sort of got, I don't know, immersed or influenced or let's use the brainwash term again about service design. That was an interesting period around that time. Natalia, we're going to talk about your journey, your story and at least a part of it, a really interesting part of it. So the first thing I would like to start with is to get an understanding of where you're heading in your journeys. Which, what is the destination? What is the dream state that you're sort of pursuing? Yeah, that you want to talk about in this case, yeah. No, I think tranquility, like being able to be more equanimous, more at ease with things, less engaged, less. Yeah, more tranquil, I think that will be. Okay, more tranquil. So could you help me to paint a picture in my head of how does that world look if we are more, the service design community or the world who needs to be more tranquil? And how does that look? What is different? It's, I think it's something that has to do, I'm going to talk about myself, like the way that I would like to be at some point is a little bit less empathic, but less passionate is not the word, but concern. I think what I want to remove is the concern, which is all the things that are related to fear, to anxiety, to regret, to remorse kind of all those voices, at least in my head. I would like to shush them and just kind of to take things more as they are a little bit more like what the Buddhists aim to be in this middle path. I'm trying to find that middle way path. And if you get there, like how, what would that change for you? I think, personally, I think I waste too much time chewing over things, either from the past and from the present. And so kind of being able to be more future, sorry, being able to be more present, I think that's what I would like to be able to not over stress for how I said, so now I'm already torturing myself from the welcome at the beginning. So being able to shush that voice and just kind of be here, enjoy. That's gone. And not stress of kind of also another voice that I have here is like, so people are going to see that you messed it up with like, so all of those voices that are constantly in my head to be able to be aware that they are, but they just kind of be more here enjoying the moment. Yeah, and this is with, I can imagine that designers, people who create, people who put stuff in the world, people who make themselves vulnerable, probably recognize a lot of these voices. And yeah, so this will be interesting. Natalia, when did this start for you? Take us back to the moment you started this journey around this. Of tranquility. I think the need is first manifested this when I graduated industrial design, I made myself a gastric problem because of anxiety. I was so nervous that I've after I delivered, I was sick. Not a big thing, but it was kind of the first early sign of this kind of very visceral reaction to the possibility of failing or reject or all of those things. And I started teaching quite early. I started teaching after a couple, a year after I graduated. And at that time, I didn't have any experience. So I think looking back, I know that I was compensating the lack of experience with kind of very much enforced authority. And it took me quite some time to realize that we are all in this kind of journey of trying to find who we are and the impact, the importance of words that matter. And that there are many ways of giving feedback. And so you can be right about something, but you need to be mindful of how you present that. And that works for both when you're teaching or when you're designing services. I think that's one of the things that we're doing. We're trying to, it's not only what you're doing, but how are you presenting it? And that the form matters. And form matters not only externally, but also internally. And I think that's the last part of the journey. This awareness that I've been working a lot on helping others to improve. And I'm very easily kinder with others now. I was very mean when I started as a teacher. I was very mean. Now the latest, I was not that mean, but I am still very mean with myself. So now I think that's the last part of the journey. Kind of how to be kinder with me. Internal journey has started. And you already mentioned something, why this is important. Would you summarize it as it will free up your time, energy to focus on positive things rather than spending your time in it? Yeah. How would you describe the reason why maybe you aren't there yet? So what is the gap between where you want to be and where you are right now? I think it's we're very much resources basically. These are kind of things that at least when I was studying, we didn't talk about that. It's very interesting because as you said earlier, design is something that we put ourselves into. Yet very seldomly, at least when I was studying, and it took me some time when I started using this in my teaching, we don't disconnect ourselves with what we are doing. So we lack resources of being able to understand what is what. So that's one kind of just the starting with the awareness. Do I really want to be this anxious because it's for some people stress works. And actually it does for me sometimes. Like I leave up on panic monsters that those are my drivers to compensate with my gratification monkey that I have wild one. So I we do need kind of sometimes these moments of rush, but just kind of having it as an intentional thing is not this is much better than just kind of being prey of that something underneath. So I think we lack awareness. I think there are resources that we don't use that much from like we have been stealing from other disciplines, but for example, how to talk with each other. We tend to assume that because we're human beings and we talk and reflect, we know how to not necessarily not to others, not to ourselves. So that lack of resources and also maybe just time and awareness. But I think those two first kind of being aware and then resources and having more conversations about these. Like I think everyone is a little bit afraid at some point. And we just kind of pretending we're not all the time. I'm curious what frustrates you or annoys you the most about this situation? Again, my personal situation that the gap between knowing that it's important and being able to affect it. Right. Because I think that's the kind of the last part of my journey is one of the reasons why I stopped teaching is that I wanted to commit design. And then it's very interesting how a lot of the things that I tell my students and I've been very adamant and it's very easy to like do this and that is very hard to do it myself. So kind of that it frustrates me a lot this kind of the difficulty of integrating things that is very easy to tell others to do. Right. Then just doing it myself. Yeah, yeah. This this I guess there are many terms for this, but the imposter syndrome and the lack of lack of confidence or compensating for the lack of confidence through a lot of other things like over explaining, playing with your hair or whatever. Right. There are a lot of ways this manifests and those are in a lot of cases quite damaging behaviors. They are. I'm curious and I'm sure you have some good examples of where this really manifested for you. So when did you experience that anxiety, that lack of tranquility? Can you share a few stories with us? Yeah, well, I think the weird part is that I'm pretty sure a lot of my students would not recognize this side of me because I'm kind of I'm regularly composed and articulated. So it's a lot this, as you mentioned, kind of the feeling of the imposter syndrome that I'm very often kind of questioning and it's this bitterness and the lack of actually, as I was saying, enjoying the moment, but also kind of overthinking what could have been with others. So it's a lot, it has to do a lot with suffering unnecessarily and ego and fear. I think a lot is fear of acceptance. I don't know, but it has to do both in when I'm preparing for something or when I'm reflecting of something. And what is interesting is that in the middle, I just kind of I go and so I'm there. But that is a little bit the anxiety before and after. Yeah, so basically when you get the time to think anxiety kicks in, when you're in work mode, like when you're in do mode, then it's full speed ahead. And then when things relax and your mind gets the opportunity to wander, then these things kick in. Do you have an example, for instance, where in the preparation you were experiencing this? I think it's more that it makes unnecessary noise. So when you're planning for something or when you're doing something, I think it's important to have reflectiveness in the critical mind is very important. And it's one of the things that we is I hope more people would have the chance to kind of look at things in a critical way. I'm not saying we should not be critical, but I think it's more being critical and compassionate in a way. So it's again, what we're doing in the intention of to take these things down, but to improve them. And that's also one of the reasons why I really like working with people. Because then when you're working with and together people is less about you. I think that's another interesting shift from industrial design to service design is that industrial design is you and it's your design. You are the form maker. You're the one that makes the calls. Whereas when you're part of a team, you are opening and then it's not you. It's this co-creative, collective thing that it's less. It gives you time to work in a different way. And then again, I would say that there's also a downside to that because you can hide. You can hide easier and it's easier to not take stands. So that's maybe a sort of the downside that I see within service design that designers are less outspoken, have less courage to stand for something. But again, I'm really curious if you look back at your career so far. This story doesn't come from just thin air. I'm sure you've had some experiences where this manifested for you personally. I think it manifested first in the care for others. I think very early, for me, teaching was never about the knowledge. It was about making better people because I think with the internet, the knowledge is there, books and things, the knowledge is there. What I love about design is that we learn design by doing. And yet the moments in which we reflect and then we give feedback and we do ourselves are weird. I started noticing very early how for teachers, we were bragging about the good students and then just ignoring the others. And regularly, good students are good not because of us features. They're good because they're just kind of there are very many talented people. But then there is all this group of people, others that are there willing to be worked with. And I was very early on trying to see how I can help keep the brilliant students interested and engaged but help those that had challenges that were confused that were not understanding to be part of that. So it was also kind of trying to make the experience education better and help and how there are so many ways you don't need to trash down students, how you can help them be better. Still being critical because I was always kind of very critical and I think I do think that design is important and that we need to be reflective but then how? And then very early I recognized that at the beginning as I told I was a meaner. It was this reaction of when students when you give when I used to give feedback to students, sometimes I would cry and I could see myself there in this very vulnerable position of kind of I failed. And I think it was very important for me when I realized that it's very important to educate and teach people to separate you from your design process. And then I realized that very often when we're talking about the feedback in design we talk about the course we talk only about the outcome and then I started and then I came with this concept of metacognition which is reflecting about thinking about how you think and we started integrating that into our courses kind of stepping out of that vehicle of learning that is the project and observing the journey of learning so that you know that regardless of the outcome of the process you learn as an individual you learn something and that at least in education is as valuable this change from stage A to stage B to the outcome of this thing and that it's important to be able to do that. So that was a point in which it started to be clear again outwards and then when I moved here to you want to say something. Yeah I have a quite of course yeah of course I always want to say something or at least I have a lot of questions so you mentioned this metacognition thing I'm not familiar with it and I don't know if the people listening or watching are but you sort of step over really quickly but this is a big change so you can say to somebody you need to separate yourself from the thing you put into the world but how like in a most practical way because people might get it they might hear it but how do you actually put that into practice? Well easier said than done but basically is metacognition is thinking about how you think so that's one thing and in design the trick is that we learn by doing so it's not that you study something and then you make an exam you are doing design you're committing design and hopefully you're learning about that but we are so focused on the thing that we're doing that we start thinking that that is the purpose that the purpose is for me to design this thing and this is just a means to an end sure this thing that I am designing is the excuse that I'm using or the mechanism that I'm using to learn so the thing that helps metacognition here is that okay I'm done with this more often than not not because of it's ready but because the time is over and so that is the moment where you can take a step and then just step back and see okay the thing but then look at the journey how was I a week a month a semester ago how am I now what worked what didn't work how can I learn from this and integrate what I have learned because something also that was for me very interesting was to see that some students will do great one semester and the next semester he said as if nothing had happened I'm like you just did a project and is that we are so much in a rush very often that we don't stop and integrate and we don't have this moment of pause and actually allow the voices to be intentionally and then just kind of evaluate or assess things and be able to see okay this work it didn't work how are things happening and so it's giving time for for reflection beyond the end thing and into the journey the process and what you learned and what work what didn't work and two things that come to my mind I try to simplify everything I have two two kids who are sort of in the in the ages where they are learning how to ride a bike and then you you can help them to learn how to ride a bike by saying let's go to the park and then the park the destination is fun it's nice but actually the park is an excuse to get them to learn to ride a bike that's that's how I that's what I got from your story that the challenge that I see is that maybe the people who are giving feedback on what designers do often isn't focused on the process it's often focused on the outcome on the end result so how do you see that balance like the the feedback you get from others because it's really easy to point at something that is tangible that you've put into the world and comment on that versus a transformational learning journey that you've been through I think that that just a lot of things like feedback is one of the trickiest types of interactions that we have I think it's it's much nicer when it's a conversation or instead of just a monologue one is prospective because I think also that you could have can be phrased in the next time that you meet this so kind of more as something that can be a lesson not a regret or reproach it something that you are why didn't you nagging yeah yeah so I think there is a lot in the form but I also think that it's important that we learn to do that for ourselves because the the the problem with the teacher or the mentor or whomever the coach is that you're externally observing but it's also and it's an important view because you're having an external perspective but I think what I what I would like to encourage in my life and I have tried to do it with my students is this self-voice like be reassured like you learning how to actually appreciate and look back like well this didn't work how can I make it better next time but these work and being fair with that assessment because I think also we tend to focus too much on what didn't work or at least I take to both internally and also externally and then instead of kind of looking okay from that what can we learn in a more constructive thing and then what are the things that deep kind of enjoying more the things that we do I think it's important but that's that's a process that should be your own voice that you train to talk to you on those terms to to continue a little bit about the the people who you've mentored and thought the the ones that were able to do this that were somehow successful maybe talented did you see a pattern in them like did they have something in common um no I think another great thing that has given me the fact that I have seen so many people is that I think the grass is greener where you water it basically that would be the summary summary there there is just is trying to find what are the things that that kick you that move you everyone has that one and it's I sound super cliche cliche but I do really believe that there are some people that are far stronger than they have more resources they're more motivated and then you have different conversations with those and there are others that are struggling more with these kind of things and it's kind of being able and open and to see what kind of conversation is useful to have a clear eye on the goal um but I do think that everyone has something that is working with and and and again it's an individual journey so no I don't think there's a common thing willingness I think if anything like this Gert they doing persistence maybe is that like but willingness to do for what willingness to to continue to try and to prototype and to fail because I think that's another beautiful thing of kind of design nowadays that we say that the design process is fair fail fail sooner yeah but then kind of can we integrate that it also in kind of the way that we assess and that we make a shitty first draft and we're kind with that shitty first draft because it's just doing trying to do that a little bit with our process as well yeah and I would yeah I would be really curious like what kind of person doesn't take a failure as a failure but as a learning opportunity what what is it what have they learned what is in their character what what is in their environment yeah that and because I had a I had a colleague many years ago Camilo Spina and he said we always need to aim for the students to surpass the master and I am sure that I have I can think of a handful of students that are I hope far more self-assured what they are standing that I am still like that and I'm like no we do this and I'm like do you go if we if we flip the conversation around because like you said in the beginning it's easy to give advice to somebody and to encourage them to do something like this um now you are trying to put your ideas your here I go your designs into the world how is this manifesting for you how do you deal with these inner voices and what have you learned about that uh slowly but surely I'm I think the like everyone failing and going up again and just kind of being aware I think being open about the conversation is something that also I think has changed because the moment I start sharing this I find that I'm not alone in that like I have a colleague also them like this is hard I open of course under a year or kind of outside in a in a more sharing space and then just feeling that I'm not alone in that feeling it's uh it's nice also kind of from people that are grown ups because that's another kind of weird feeling that I have had is that I was into education at IMS for so long and then suddenly it's kind of how why am I feeling still disanctious and then having friends that say like it's a little children inside that child inside that doesn't never grow up a little bit and just kind of knowing that it exists and this is kind of okay it's there I'm not a weird though so it's opening for these kind of conversations and just kind of yeah okay so um I we have the five whys in uh in the design field I I have the five house how do you open up what does that mean um finding a safe space to actually share if I when I'm feeling very very anxious why dealing with it yourself alone hopefully and I've been very lucky to have friends that I can just kind of find them so like okay this is bugging me just being able to have that space so finding a safe space for instance with friends uh and again a question like what do you do then is that is that I'm I'm trying to be as practical as possible here is it that you feel uh I need to I need to share this let's invite somebody for a video call in this case for a virtual call and then what happens like well I think because I don't know of these things like that's the challenge I think um open conversations safe space what what does it mean for you how does this look in what if you would need to do this tomorrow what would you do to me or to for me no for you yeah for you for me I don't know I think I what I do is that I just I call a friend and then we talk and then I cry a little and then they say and then I reflect and then I take a step back I think it's a it's a process yeah it has include I I think therapy and reading books and just kind of mindfulness and breathing and and that goes back to the resources to kind of uh being more aware of the kind of conversations and the mental dialogues that you have and they're just kind of trying to tone tone them down or um I don't know it it it touches in the realm of personal development and and and psychology even yeah yeah so I have gone to therapy and I do try to meditate here and there and just breathe and all those things and it's kind of being aware that our cycles and that it's just an improvement that is a journey that is an ongoing process and then there are some periods that you're better than there are some periods that you're not and it's um and it's something that continues evolving and hopefully for the best and if you look at what you've learned about learning about yourself because that's basically what we're talking about what were some um big lessons what if you what were some things that really struck you as big insights and things you thought I wish I knew this sooner what did you read what did you do what did you experience um a couple one this I'm not my design I wish that was something that was told to me many many years ago kind of because it's a practice this this association like I did this but it's not me it's an extension of me that also that we are part of the design process that we are not this uh that we when we are a part of a system we are part of the system we're just not passive things that there is that there are implications that that projects give us back to kind of open that conversation but another one was something that I really like of this uh agency that I'm working with is that one of the first things that they do when they do the awarding is that they teach communication guidelines and I really like that because um it resonates with yeah um what they have is that they have a former designer that now has taken an education in Gestalt and then she presents that for a safe space for people to work effectively in groups we need a safe space based on research that Google and other things have done and around that safe space the one of the main qualities with what people feel secure and linked to that is communication so they have communication guidelines and there are seven and I hope it will remember them but the first one is I know that I listen to understand which is a very good one in first one just kind of being aware that you need to listen to understand the second one I know that I interpret and I check the interpretation with the person concerned because very often we're just projecting and then I you told you you were meaning no I know that I interpret and I check the interpretation the third one is I say but I mean what I mean and I mean what I say so speaking about yourself not on behalf of others the one is the fourth one is um I avoid using anonymous sources uh the fifth one is I stayed out of the conflicts of others the sixth one is very important I talk with and not about and then is the seventh I don't know and it sounds like what kind of culture do you have there but there is a very nice culture I think precisely because of that because there is an explicit way of how we address each other often with I'm curious about these kind of guidelines how do you feel that they are actually lived that's one of the challenges I often see it yeah of course it needs a lot of reinforcement okay so for a while there were and and so they come every now and then so what we did the second time we just have these little memory cards that are everywhere in the computers just kind of as little reminders but I do think that it starts being embedded in the culture so I see people checking themselves when kind of well we should not talk about this person and so on which is it's an important thing it becomes part of the culture for um for the people who are listening right now and sort of inspired and want to want to start putting this into practice your advice what are some of the things that they could do on maybe a daily level that would help them along this path what would you say can we practice um I would say kindness in general it's it's very it sounds super cheesy but I do think that when we are aware of the fact that our words matter both externally and internally I think that's it that's a good starting point kind of checking a little bit how I'm saying things and I think if if you're a designer you are aware of the impact of form and form and if you're a service designer you know that form is of many things not only the physical form but the form of the processes and so on and so being a little bit paying a little bit the tension of how you're talking to others and how you're talking to yourself and making notes of how can that form be kinder that is an exercise that I try to do I fail very often but I just it's on my never ending to do list of things and that I think that will be one that it's um it's I hope a good one and practicing a kind of form of communication being aware of how you talk with others and trying to do it in the best possible way that you can in that moment if we had to summarize this conversation what would you say is the morale of your story um that we're all in a journey uh and that every I think again there are many things that we don't know about the people that are around us and there is a little bit of fear here and there in everyone I think so just being aware that even some people that look super strong they're not so all the time um not assuming so much uh just kind of checking in a little bit more and making the questions to others and to you yourself like being a little bit more present um and accepting that where you are present and you're not in the good move that you maybe can do something about it just not have to be there all the time if people want to dig into this uh topic more are there any books videos things you can recommend a lot from the top of my head at this point um I think if they want to go into kind of the more design early part of this someone a friend that works in not the same thing but the end of this awareness that we're part of the systems and that we are that is the jocina pink he just finished her phd and link shopping we had her on the show higher jocina I think her her approach is very much aligned with these kind of things this you're part of the system and just be aware of the invisible things and dig deep so that is kind of from the practitioner part I really recommend her work and her way of thinking for the other more everything that has to do with mindfulness something to help you breathe more and kind of be more present and so on which is a never-ending path of you can choose your flavor there I think yeah speaking about flavors what are some of the things other people who are listening right now are doing around this topic I think there are again like you said often it's not the lack of resources it's finding the ones that are most valuable so I would be really curious if people are also on this same journey please share some of the resources you're using I would be curious to hear if people want to continue this conversation with you is there a way that they can get in touch um on LinkedIn I think okay Natalia I will make sure all the links are as always I was always in the in the show notes yeah um Natalia thanks so much for oh my thank you being vulnerable being courageous enough to to be on the service design show and sharing you and I'm sure you've inspired some some people here through this episode thank you if you made it this far make sure to leave a comment down below and share your biggest insight from this episode and while you're at it just share this episode with one other person today who might find it helpful as well that way you'll help to grow the service design show community and that helps me to invite more inspiring guests like Natalia here on the show for you if you want to continue to get inspired and see more practical advice check out this video because we're going to continue over there 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