 I ask the members, and those leaving the public gallery, to do so as quickly and as quietly as possible. As we move on to the next item of business, which is the member's business debate on motion 7.832 in the name of Alex Cole Hamilton, on Chinese state surveillance. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put, but I invite members to participate, to press their request speak buttons. Now, we're as soon as possible, and I invite Alex Cole Hamilton to open the debate around seven minutes. I thank you very much indeed Deputy Presiding Officer and I'm pleased to rise from my party to speak in this member's debate in my name. The People's Republic of China is a huge player on the world stage. It is the second-largest economy in the world. While its Belt and Road initiative has funded massive infrastructure projects in over 150 countries around the globe, China has projected its influence in an unprecedented fashion. Its huge economic clout is that we too are heavily reliant on China as a trading partner and the supplier of the tech that we increasingly rely on to help run our lives. However, there are serious question marks about the kind of influence that China may seek to exert over many countries who rely on it in the coming years and months. Recent events suggest that its intentions may not be entirely 49 oeddach, ein blynydd eich gofynig wedi'i darfwygen ar blynyddiol ac mae'r unrhyw yw'r dwyn ni'r amgylchgrifonau i USA. Rydych chi'n dechrau unrhyw o ddiwylidau cyllidolol cyn sydd gengyrchol gennym ni'g blynyddiol ac hynny'n i'n meddwl i gyrfa. Yr ymobaeth cael lleoedd eich gofynu cyfeirio i blynydd yn ymwysig roedd ein bod aros yn rhan i mwyloedd anghyraedd, ac mae'r regilar hynny wedi bod mae'n That represents quite alarming development by a Chinese state who is rhetoric, particularly in relation to Taiwan, has become increasingly concerning. There is a reason to be concerned about matters much closer to home. Ironically it is a fact that Chinese national intelligence law requires every Chinese base company to cooperate with state intelligence services. That's a fact. Ysch demandau i drosdugasunde i barnalis gwy Lloyd-D grandchildren adnwys arniadig blai iawn i dda i yr unig dynnu, ddonach a'r enghraifftau�eraiddol drwy west of ihnen i amdano'i gynhalaiddion i ddim yn weldon neu oesref. Diolch yn fwy i ddatblywy yn nation hynny. COATEN ddefnyddio, while we fit fit on our mobile phones and our computers. There are serious questions to be asked about how data is handled and, as the member says, who has access to it. I am grateful to the member for paving way to the point I am just about to make. In recent weeks, the chair of the House of Commons foreign affairs select committee advised UK citizens to delete the app TikTok from their phones, which is given the weight of evidence gymohono hwnnw'n gymwnaeth sydd yr workersostwyr cy glyfREKLor Clef, spolwyrrarnedd hon yn enalol gyda pooFCadiad o hwnnw i gyfrayf tiktok. Maen nhw'n gwybod i'r isberg, heik vision yn y gallu'r ysgolwyddaeth yn dda, ac rwy'n gweithio iawn i'r ddyfodol ffigurau i'r byw sydd mewn cyfforddiadau cyflwyntol, oedd yn gweithio'r mylwyr, ac i'r ddadu'r cyfforddiadau i'r ddyfodol, i'r ddweud yn gweithgwyr cameras, which are also used in the detention centres holding huigur Muslims against their will in Xinjiang. These cameras are also used by Police Scotland. Just last week, the UK Biometrics Commissioner Fraser Samson spoke of us having created a network of dependencies on Chinese surveillance technology without sufficient regard to risk. He also likened hike vision in particular as digital asbestos. Those cameras are not only a threat to our privacy and our security, but they continue due to cross Scotland flies in the face of the Liberal principles and human rights that we, as a nation, claim to champion. I have raised the alarm on this numerous times, but little action has been taken. Indeed, Scottish Liberal Democrats have led the way in identifying the threat that these devices pose. Although Liberal Democrat councillors in Edinburgh, in particular, have been successful in their calls to have hike vision cameras removed from the capital from local government estate, it is time that the Scottish Government showed some leadership here, too. It should echo the warnings of experts and issue an alert advising local authorities and public bodies against the use of such surveillance equipment, particularly equipment manufactured by companies linked to the Chinese state and in the orbit of its intelligence legislation. That would be a positive step forward, but Chinese state surveillance runs worryingly deeper than that. The United Kingdom shares a proud history with the people of Hong Kong, and I led the first debate in this Parliament on the plight of the people of Hong Kong. It is why former leader of my party, Paddy Ashton, was the first to seek and secure British passport for the Hong Kong Chinese. International solidarity for people that we may never meet is a core Liberal principle, and we have offered the people of Hong Kong, threatened by the ever-increasing authoritarianism of the Chinese state, safe harbour on our shores. I will take an intervention from Daniel Johnson. I am very grateful to the member for giving way, and indeed I think that we should all reflect upon the words of the Sino-UK agreement back in that date, but our obligation to Hong Kong people from Scotland runs deeper than that, given that this country is deep historical and, indeed, shameful legacy with regard to the opi boards. I wonder if you would agree with me that we have a very deep sense of duty and obligation to the people of Hong Kong that runs back many decades and centuries. I am very grateful to Daniel Johnson for that excellent reminder of Britain's historic complicity in the plight of the people of Hong Kong and our duty of care to them, and that is why I am proud that we have offered them safe harbour in our shores and visas to get here if they need them. Still, the reach of Chinese Communist Party intelligence services reaches them even here, under the auspices of, again, that intelligence law. There are even reports of that secret Chinese police station operating out of a restaurant in Glasgow. I have had direct discussions with Hong Kongers living here in Edinburgh, who say that their public meetings and events are often disrupted by agents of the Chinese state right here in Scotland. We have a duty to take that seriously and to safeguard both Hong Kongers and their allies and supporters from that sort of interference. The danger posed by those covert activities is very real. Unaddressed actions threaten to undermine our liberty, our privacy and even our national security. We are about to commemorate the anniversary of Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Deputy Presiding Officer. I fear that, in the near future, we will look back on this time with an understanding that we were living in the early days of a new Cold War. This is grimly evident also in the Chinese Communist Party's apparent friendship with Vladimir Putin and their aggressive posture towards Taiwan. The US Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, has even warned that China could be on the brink of supplying weapons to Russia for use in Ukraine. We must take a stand now. We must firmly be on the side of human rights and international law. As a Parliament, as a country, we cannot and must not be complicit in human rights violations nor complacent in the face of such a potential national security threat. That is why the Scottish Government and the UK Government must now undertake an immediate comprehensive investigation into the reach of Chinese civilians in Scotland. There may be some who think that this is alarmist or believe that that sort of surveillance that I am describing is benign, but I ask them to consider the situation. Would it be the case that companies such as Hyke Vision and TikTok were instead run by the Kremlin or if Russian operatives were operating unchecked in our largest cities? If 2022 is taught as anything, it is that we must not take for granted the peace, stability and security that we have been so fortunate to enjoy for the better part of a century. I would very much like to thank Alex Cole-Hamilton for bringing this motion forward. It offers us a real opportunity to debate an issue that, in my view, we should be debating a lot more, and that is our national security. In my contribution today, I want to reflect on what this incident means for us all, going about our daily lives, enjoying the freedom of living in a democracy. There has been much commentary about the Chinese balloon incident in the context of the wider threat posed to the west by China. Last summer, General Mark Millay, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, warned that China is increasing in its aggressiveness, in its rhetoric, but also in its activity, noting that China intersects in the air and sea have increased dramatically over the past five years. John Bolton, former United States security adviser, recently described China as the existential threat in the 21st century. Other observers acknowledged surveillance in the 21st century as unexpected and everyday part of international relations. A recent commentary piece by Russie described the event as neither new nor particularly notable, albeit that balloon stayed in the US airspace for longer than its predecessors. Scotland is a safe place to live, but the United Kingdom is not immune from the threat posed by bad actors. Many of us will recall the tragic terrorist murders of Joe Cox MP and David Amos MP and the radicalisation and recruitment of British citizens to dieish during the Syrian conflict. The current threat level for the UK is substantial, meaning an attack is likely. In his recent annual threat update, the director-general of the security service, Ken McCallum, reiterated that no one should be under any illusion about the breadth and variety of threats that we face, including Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine, bringing war to Europe, and an increasingly assertive Chinese Communist Party using overt and covert pressure to bend other countries to its will. He described how the Chinese authorities use all means at their disposal to monitor and intimidate the Chinese diaspora from forcibly repatriating Chinese nationals to harassment and assault. Recent media coverage has focused on so-called overseas Chinese police stations, including one reported in Glasgow, a matter that Ross Greer raised with the First Minister late last year. I note the comments made by Mr Cole Hamilton in relation to his interaction with local students on their experiences. The reach of the Chinese state also extends to using organisations, including the United Front Work Department, to apply pressure to anyone who is challenging the regime's core interests, whether that is on democracy or human rights abuses. According to the director general, we can expect it to increase further as President Xi consolidates power on an indefinite basis. I welcome the establishment of the UK Government defending democracy task force that will focus on protecting the democratic integrity of the UK from threats from foreign interference, including that of China. I would ask the Minister what updates she may be able to provide on the task force engagement with the Scottish Government on the work that they are taking forward. In the meantime, I value and cherish that we live in a nation where police officers are not routinely armed, where we can walk around our communities safely and speak freely on the things that matter to us. We will not, and we must not be complacent, maintain our focus on China's growing sphere of influence in a volatile international environment while defending our freedom and democracy. I thank Alex Cole-Hamilton again for bringing this important motion forward today for debate. I thank Alex Cole-Hamilton for bringing forward this important debate this afternoon. I would also like to thank the Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong Foundation for their briefing provided. I have worked closely with the committee over the past year to ensure that those who have come to Scotland from Hong Kong are safe and free to live their lives without fear of persecution. I look forward to the committee's initiative forward and I would encourage colleagues from across the chamber to join me efforts. I know that I will not be alone in the chamber when I say that I have found the events in North America over the last couple of weeks very disturbing. A nation's sovereignty being so blatantly challenged is extremely worrying, and there are worrying signs at home as well as abroad. I want to refer to three areas this afternoon that cause me concern. Firstly, Taiwan, secondly, illegal police stations, and thirdly, the infiltration of churches in Scotland. I hope across the chamber that we all will stand with Taiwan in regard to its independence. I am proud to be a member of the cross-party group on Taiwan having visited that country a few years ago. I would be interested whether the minister in her summon up or perhaps she could write to me after this to let me know what engagement the Scottish Government has had with Taiwan over the last number of months. As both members have already alluded to, I think that we are all short to hear of the existence of a secret Chinese police station in Glasgow last year. A report from several liberties group safeguard defendants goes into detail about the workings of the stations that are found around the world. They found that local Chinese residents are used to doing the bidding of the Chinese police. That has caused a great deal of stress to Hong Kongers who live in Glasgow after fleeing their home for fear of persecution. I spoke to people who say that they do not feel safe walking the streets in case they are costed by someone who represents the regime that they are fled from. I hope that this whole Parliament can commit to ensuring that no foreign nation is unlawfully policing in Scotland and doing everything in our power to make those who have chosen to settle in Scotland feel welcome and safe. Finally, I want to refer to something that I have a specialist interest in—the apparent infiltration of CCP propaganda in some churches in Chinese communities. On one occasion, a Hong Kongers pressed his pro-democracy view in church. That has led to a heated debate between other pro-CCP churchgoers and him. In the sermon that the police gave a few days after the incident, he said the following. Hong Kongers should be grateful for what China has done for them and should not be rebellious. It is great to be Chinese. We should be proud of it. Even we here in Scotland will always be Chinese and should support the country's policies. I want to call our church leaders across Scotland to honour their positions for going political allegiances in church and simply point B people to Jesus rather than any earthly authority. We must stand strong against foreign operations in our country. I hope that this Parliament can come together and agree to stand against tyranny for those in our country who are fleeing persecution. I begin by thanking Alex Cole-Hamilton. It is really important that we use the events of recent weeks and months in the obvious and explicit use of Chinese state surveillance apparatus over North America to reflect about what that means and the actions that we should take. Some of those will be very much geopolitical, but some of them are practical and immediate. That is really what I want to talk about. As Alex Cole-Hamilton was speaking, I was just realising that I had been advised to install a hike vision camera in my constituency office. I did not take that up because I thought that the quote was too high, but in retrospect I am quite pleased that I did it. I would also like to thank Jeremy Balfour for organising the meeting that took place in this Parliament with Hong Kong refugees. I was really struck by their experiences, but I think that we are in danger of forgetting the events that took place just a matter of a couple of years ago in terms of the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong, which is the reason that we are seeing this influx of people seeking refuge in this country from Hong Kong. The events of Covid and subsequently the Ukraine have overshadowed the fact that people in Hong Kong have been persecuted by the Chinese authorities. They were protesting against a next traditional law that we would have seen people from Hong Kong extradited for trial in mainland China in direct contravention of the Anglesino agreement in 1984, which article 13 of which states explicitly that the rights of civil liberty and freedom of speech would be upheld in Hong Kong in the future. That resulted in 10,000 arrests of protesters and there are now 1,200 political prisoners. That is according to the White House, which in 26 January extended the ability of people to seek refuge in the United States. 1,200 political prisoners. Let us just understand the scale of that, because in 2019 there were less than 8,000 prisoners in totality in Hong Kong's jails. That means that more than 10 per cent of Hong Kong's jails are political prisoners. I find that statistic horrific. I think that we must seek to fulfil our duties and obligations both through those agreements in 1984, but they are more historic ones that I alluded to in my intervention with Alex Cole-Hamilton. We have a real sense of obligation and duty. Our role as a nation, as Scots in Hong Kong, is not one that we should be proud of and one that I do not think that enough Scots are fully aware of. Our role in the opium wars, the unfair treaty port treaties, is one of shame. Therefore, I think that we have a deep sense of duty in this country to ensure that we welcome people from Hong Kong in reflection of that. However, the real thing that I took away from the meeting that Jeremy Balfour organised was just how scared people were. People were scared to speak in open forum at that meeting. They were only prepared to speak on a one-to-one basis of their experience, because they were not sure who they were speaking to and who else was in the room. In this building, they were scared to speak their minds, speak their truth in this building. That really struck me as something that is quite profound. When they did speak privately, they spoke of stories about being followed and watched, approached and questioned by people that acted on behalf of the Chinese state, and people who had academic positions and institutions in this country. There are three things that I would draw from that. First of all, we have a role as MSPs to ensure that people feel safe that they can approach us and that they will be treated with integrity, but also with confidentiality when they do so. I think that that is a role that we should take. Alex Cole-Hamilton I am very grateful—I am sorry to interrupt Daniel in his three points that he is raising, because they are excellent points and they are very important. Will he agree with me, though, that there are also Chinese citizens living here in Scotland for whom the Chinese state and the Chinese Communist Party does not speak and who share our revulsion and our concern about the outreach and the efforts to surveil peaceful activities, particularly of the Hong Kong Chinese here in Edinburgh? Daniel Johnson I think that that is a hugely important point. China, being such a huge country, will have a diversity of views. Anyone who thinks that the Chinese state acts and speaks for all Chinese people is severely mistaken. We should defend those who hold differing views to those of the Chinese state, whether they are Chinese or otherwise. Alex Cole-Hamilton, for saying that all three of my points were excellent, given that I had only stated one of them. I think that we need to recognise the role that our institutions may have in facilitating those. I think that we should note that Australia and Canada recently reviewed their academic relationships, particularly with Confucius Institutes. I think that there are welcome things to be had from those relationships, but I think that we do need to review them. That is something that we can do here in Scotland. We need to reflect on the role that other countries and actions that other countries may be taking. Iran, disclosed by MI5 director general, has made 10 attempts to either kidnap or kill its own citizens in the UK. The Turkish embassy in March last year was found to have been carrying out surveillance on its citizens here in the UK. Above all else, we must ensure that Scotland is a safe haven for people who are seeking refuge from despotic and repressive regimes, be that China or anywhere else in the world. Thank you very much, Mr Johnson. I now invite Elena Whitham to respond to the debate minister for around seven minutes. I, too, am grateful to Alex Cole-Hamilton for providing the Parliament with the opportunity to debate such an important and wide-reaching topic. I am only absolutely devastated that there are not more people here to talk about such a topic, as will be appreciated by this Parliament. National security and data protection are matters that are reserved, and we are therefore constrained in the laws that we can make in these matters. However, recent activities, as highlighted in today's motion, are timely reminders of the many continued threats that are faced. Those developments are further signs of how the global threat picture is changing, as has been mentioned. Ensuring that the security of Scotland and the rest of the UK and its data are a priority for both the Scottish and the UK Governments. As has been raised today, while matters are reserved, the impacts can be felt across the devolved sectors in Scotland. Ministers take security matters extremely seriously, and the Scottish Government keeps all policies under review. You will be aware, as has been mentioned today, that Police Scotland is currently inquiring into reports of an undeclared Chinese police station in Glasgow. It is upsetting to hear about the experiences that people have had that have been reported to their parliamentarians. As this is an operational matter for Police Scotland, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further today. In addition, we expect our institutions and businesses to be fully aware of the risks of any international engagement due to proper diligence and to take steps to protect their assets and people. I hope that today I will be able to provide assurance on those matters. Daniel Johnson I am grateful to the minister for giving way. Obviously, one of the most key ways that we have explicit relationship with China and Scotland is through our academic institutions. While I think that we do not want to see this treated a binary way, does she think that there is a need to review our academic links and institutional links through academia with China? Minister I think that it is always important that we do look to other countries around the world as to where they have done such reviews. I do think that we have such close relationships in terms of our educational institutions here and with China. I think that a review of that is something that is not going to be off the table. I think that it is something that we have to bear in mind. Turning first to the matters that recently took place in the United States, as Alex Cole-Hamilton will be aware of the US assessment points to a deliberate violation of their sovereign territory and airspace. We stand full square behind the decisive facts and taken by the United States and are following the investigation into this incident closely. The UK Government has indicated that it will conduct a security review to assess the dangers posed by the balloons and we support their review to protect UK airspace from these types of intrusions. The review will be used to help decide whether any changes need to be made to the surveillance of British airspace and the Scottish Government stands ready to engage in the process where appropriate. The Parliament will be aware of the efforts by the Chinese central government to strengthen its security legislation, as referred to in today's motion. According to that legislation, everyone is responsible for state security, which is in line with China's state security legal structure as a whole. The legislation includes articles that could compel businesses that are registered in China, including those operating overseas, or have operations in China to hand over information to Chinese intelligence agencies. That clearly, as has been mentioned, has data protection and data security implications in Scotland, as it does globally. Data protection is a matter reserved, and the UK Government will continue to monitor the threats to our data and will not hesitate to take further action if necessary to protect our national security. Organisations are expected to comply fully with UK privacy laws. I am grateful to the minister for taking my intervention. I understand entirely the landscape of reserved and devolved competences in this very complex issue. That is why I have sought to call on the Government to conduct an audit, if you like, as to the reach and influence of Chinese surveillance possible potential within our daily life here in Scotland. To make local authorities and public bodies, like Police Scotland, who are still using high-vision surveillance cameras, aware of the potential dangers and data breaches that could come as a result of so-doing. Minister, I can give you the time back. Thank you very much for that. That is absolutely something that I am going to come on to in a little moment. As highlighted in today's debate, the UK Biometrics and Surveillance Commissioner's recent report provides an insight into the extent of the potential reach of the national intelligence law of the People's Republic of China. In response, the UK Government announced that companies that subject to the legislation should not be able to supply surveillance systems to sensitive UK Government sites. I repeat the assurance previously given through answers to Alex Cole-Hamilton's recent parliamentary questions that the Scottish Government takes seriously the threats that this poses and is undertaking action within its powers to expose those issues. The Scottish Government is in the process of a multi-year improvement programme, which commenced in 2018, and all existing CCTV kit and equipment is being replaced with a new integrated system. That will have data protection and security cleanly at the forefront of our minds. We are also aware that the CCTV systems in local authorities and Police Scotland include equipment supplied by Chinese-owned companies. The national strategy for public space CCTV in Scotland, which was published in March 2011, is not quite up-to-date yet in terms of the existence of the world that we live in today, and the digital asbestos, as you put it before, is in front of us. We must look to improving that in the future, and I will keep Parliament up-to-date on how we do that. The Scottish Government continues to keep in close contact with the UK Government on developments in response to the Foreign Affairs Committee's recent recommendations, and we will act accordingly, including consulting with Police Scotland and local authorities, on what measures they might take in response to those steps. Next week marks the start of Cyber Scotland week, which we will have a series of events to help to make people and organisations more cyber-aware and resilient. I encourage everyone in the chamber to consider attending those events and to tell your constituents about the week, and to visit thecyberscotland.com portal and to share that on your social media channels. That will give people a little bit of a chance to pause and think about what apps they might have on their own phones and computers. Both the NCS and thecyberscotland.com websites are useful sources of information, advice and guidance. The NCS also has social media guidance, which covers most major platforms, including advice on digital footprints and privacy settings. I want to make a comment just before I close with regard to human rights and China. We have heard quite a lot today round about that. The Scottish Government's China policy supports the economic, cultural, education and social relationships with the people of China in keeping with the values of Scotland. We cannot forget that the majority of people in China want to foster good relations around the world. That means working constructively on global priorities such as tackling climate change and biodiversity loss, as well as challenging China in areas of grave concern, such as human rights. I echo concerns that we have heard around the chamber. We have particular concerns regarding the situation in Xinjiang. If we think about the other situations that we need to raise, people who have been persecuted for their religious beliefs in China and perhaps keeping at the forefront of our mind the situation in Taiwan and as well with the situation in Hong Kong. We are clear-eyed about our international engagement, including with China, and, as I have previously stated, we expect our institutions and businesses to understand and manage the reputational, ethical and security risks associated with our international partnerships. That concludes the debate, and I suspend this meeting of parliament until 2 o'clock.