 No radical, fundamental principles of freedom, rational self-interest, and individual rights. This is the Iran Book Show. Welcome to Iran Book Show on this Thursday, almost the end of March, almost in South America. I'll be heading there on Tuesday, so I'm super excited today to have Isaiah as my guest. I met Isaiah at a seminar at the University of, well, we met before that. I think we met at an Ocon in the past. At an Ocon before that, yeah. But we chatted a little bit at that point. He was like this young kid who had a TikTok channel. That's what I remember. He impressed me at this seminar we had a while back at the University of Texas. That was put on by Greg Salmiere on, was it like a three day, two and a half day seminar on racism? And Isaiah was one of the people there and it was a lot of fun and it was super interesting. So I learned a lot and there was just whole pieces of American history that I thought, God, I really don't know this stuff. It was a vague notion, a vague idea about it, but really don't know it. And I'm sure my listeners don't know it either. So I thought it would be a great opportunity and racial issues in the headlines constantly. Civil rights is talked about, but I don't think very well understood what it means and what the movement has been and what it is and how it's evolved over the last 200 years. So it's a great opportunity we'll get. Is that Isaiah, I guess, how do you want me to, what do you want me to call you? I normally online, I prefer IBIS but. So just to give you a little bit, IBIS is a student of Objectivism and Intellectual Activist and Training. He currently is a student at the Iron Man University. So this is also a pitch for the Iron Man University, you know, they sponsor the show. You'll get a flavor, a little bit of that as well. We can also ask Isaiah about his experiences there. And he works as an editor for the undercurrent. An undercurrent is a publication inspired by the philosophy of Objectivism. It's a student publication or at least was historically, it's been around for a long time, kind of on and off over the years. I guess it's being rebooted. So Isaiah or IBIS is part of that reboot. He's an electrician by trade, makes the living as an electrician. He's also engaged in training to become a Montessori guide while also building the skills of an intellectual historian. And those are some of the skills that impressed me during the, during the seminar. As an intellectual activist, he's involved in many cultural commentary projects and applies philosophy and history to social media landscape. And social media is known as IBIS of Aporia and is associated with the TikTok YouTube group, Aporia. And you can find his, I mean, I'm in Twitter and Instagram and I put the links to it, like his, whatever the terminology is, his Twitter thing and his Instagram thing. It's in the, it's in the description in the bio. So IBIS, thanks for joining us today. Thank you for having me. You know, dream come true, you know, my journey started with watching you three years ago. So this is, this is actually crazy for me right now. That is quite a crazy. So, so tell me a little bit about the journey. So let's start with that. So how did you discover me? How do you discover your end and then what's it been like? What's the path being like, if you will. So, I mean, it started pretty much scrolling through YouTube at the beginning of kind of around the kind of maybe a little bit before the pandemic and the lockdown started going through a lot of Thomas soul content, and kind of very being intellectually active, following the trail, getting on to obviously your content and kind of tracking that down. And once I got to you and soul and pushing about reading materials, I, it reignited my passion for reading that was lost to me through the public school system. And it was like, you know, like I like to tell people all these books behind me didn't exist three years ago so I, I went at it quite seriously. At that time I had just began being an electrician's apprentice and, you know, it, I was having I was having a lot of kind of moments where it was like, you know, how much do I want to deeply become an electrician because you know there's a whole world opening up to me now where, you know, there's a there's a lot of stuff for me that I want to say, it's a lot of things I want to do and then, and then the tick tock thing happened. So I'll give you a little bit on that. I met a lot of people. So of course the lockdowns happen. I was getting paid to stay at home quite well my dad. So I, I decided to use my time to learn more and engage with people through you know all the different services tick tock discord Instagram and even though I wasn't trying to put myself quite out there I ended up finding some people through different programs, namely a kid named Larry who's also part of the iron ran university student and you know, after talking to him and kind of kind of putting him on to more, more of your stuff and Tom and soul and all these other different sources of information. So we were I was just like you know what man if we take this stuff to tick tock and kind of challenge what's going on there. I bet you we could get a following and I always have this mindset where you know if you if you, if you have the right kind of message and if you're charismatic about it you can make a following online. I'm a big proponent of YouTube as one of the greatest services ever. So, lo and behold, a massive group get started that I think at its peak was like, you know, 200 people across different chat rooms. And that was just on the back end. And you know the actual tick tock page reached, I think, even now it's sitting at like maybe 6000 60,000 followers with with videos, hitting 5 million views. You know, we have great feedback like, you know, I believe Jen who works for iron ran Institute had an instance there she told me about while I was in Austin where somebody comes up to her is like I know iron ran. I'm from the poor you guys on tick tock so you know where we were the tick top objectives and you know, yeah, rucka reached out and I got to meet all you guys and you know it was just, it was away from that and I couldn't leave you guys after that. Everybody was so receptive. Good. And you still in tick tock is that still something you do. We still do it from time to time everybody's in college now, which I kind of predicted everybody started to go to college which, you know, I'm very happy about because everybody's you know doing well and very motivated to what they're doing and everybody's training their writing skills but there's a plan to go back to tick tock but mostly the bigger plan is to you know, kind of give you some competition and start a YouTube channel and start a bunch of YouTube channels and sub stack as well. And then, yeah, me too, I don't can't get it going but but but I am a component of one of these things. But is YouTube more appealing because of the longer longer format is. Yeah, that's great. I want to crack the code on the longer format, edited content, and just being a good mixing that kind of combination and harmony of entertainment and information education. And I think, you know, like I always, YouTube is going to be around forever. And I just think it's, it's too important of a tool. It got me here so I agree. I agree completely as you know, and I spent a lot of time on here but yeah I'm looking for the competition I'm looking forward to lots of competition the more the better. This is good stuff. So, what got you interested in the civil rights movement in particular kind of the early civil rights movement the 19th century civil rights movement how did you get, how did your focus go there. So right before I may be discovered objectivism and it's, you know, theory of rights and all that. I just, I just googling around. I'm a big Wikipedia guy as well. Google around clicking through sources on Wikipedia following the kind of chain in the trail being a good detective. I, I discovered that there was this thing called an 1860 civil rights movement. And I found that completely interesting and peculiar that I never heard of such a thing. And, you know, as that information started to align with what I was learning from more libertarian sources and more objectivist information. I kind of put together like why don't people talk more about this history and what was going on here and it just, it just kind of snowballed from there and you know I found out it just kind of things aligned where this new kind of scholarship. Most of the books, the most important books that I've read on this topic came out recently 2022 2021. So it's just open field of scholarship and it just, you know, it, you know, even these non objectivist scholars end up talking so much about individual rights and all these different things so it was. I mean, if you're talking 1860s that's the context the context is a debate about individuals. So let's really go back there so. So, the United States has founded a constitution is established but, as we know slavery is institutionalized in the south of the United in the southern states. What extent from your readings was this challenged was this what people upset about it was the real was the real conflict going into let's say the 19th century. So this, this is one of those things I want to spend a good amount of time talking about this, but it was challenged from the very beginning and the challenge, never let up. That's something that's kind of, it seems to kind of fell on the wayside in the in the discussion of Americans history. It never sat right with different sectors of America. And it, it was always a hot topic for debate and immediately, and I want to talk about kind of always pose this question when talking about this topic, what made America so special what makes America so unique. We, we talk about, we have this phrase like the peculiar institution of slavery and what what made it so peculiar. And one of the ways to view that is that we have these founding documents these founding principles that that put that that made that idea of slavery seem completely contradictory. And this was constantly pressed on. And it was, it was always at war in the intellectual scene. So, so there were intellectuals debating this. I know in the south, there was a, you know, during the early part of the 19th century, there was a real intellectual effort to try to justify slavery. Right. I mean, a lot of people Calhoun and there were a lot of people waiting about the virtues of slavery and why this was necessary. Was there an opposition in the south, or was the opposition really from intellectuals in the north. So, let me set this up a little bit here. So, one of the interesting things that when talking about this kind of from the framework of this first civil rights movement, and one of the things that's key to think about this is so early on in the north, what happens is a lot of the states start with abolishing grad some gradually most of them gradually abolish slavery, especially like for example the Northwest ordinance in 1787 put slavery on a gradual abolishing path. And what you end up getting is this question of what is a post slavery society look like pretty much the questions that we that end up getting axed and dealt with in reconstruction. The same questions came up in the early part of America. So, instantly, do you have this issue and a lot of these, these northern states end up implementing these anti black racist laws. Registration for blacks to migrate registration for blacks to get residency blocking testimony so blacks weren't allowed to test them, testify in court cases that had to do with whites. And yeah, all these things that I think, you know we kind of think of racist laws is Jim Crow stuff but these these things are kind of a little bit very extreme. And a lot of this served as a way to push away a lot of the black migration that was coming to the north from the south because we have you know we have the south still having slave states, we obviously have a large influx of one of the things to know about The funny thing is there was a large resurgence of escape slaves, manumitting slaves. So, you know, nothing too crazy to, like, completely overthrew. Yeah, but it was a significant uptick before, as compared to before the Revolution. So, this is the context we're coming into. And when you have this declaration these declarations being made these documents being posed and being ratified, you get what's what can be called you get a group of people who are often referred to as black Americans. A lot of these early black Americans free black Americans who pick up this language, pick up this language pick up the founding principles of this nation and begin to ask this question. Why, why is there such a contradiction in of course the slave states but even in the north, why do we have. Why are we making racial distinctions in the law this is completely against the principles of the country. And it's, it's, it cannot stand and what to what extent do they use the language of individual rights to what extent do they they talk about individuals as the founding principle of the country. I mean, of course, just like the founding of the country itself it can be mixed in with religious language, but it is it is explicit we're talking about people who learn from, you know the founding generation as well so it is it is explicit they're they're calling on natural rights theory they're calling on this this languages we are all created equal there. They're explicitly saying rights they're using this word right sometimes they use the phrase and reference to the privilege and immunities clause that's found in the Constitution. They're calling explicitly on these words and on these concepts as as a way to frame their arguments and pose their arguments. And into the debate obviously. So, one of the things I like to mention to people that not a lot of people know, and this will come back later in the history is that, you know, 10 at in 10 out of 13 of these colonies, blacks were a part of ratifying and voting for the Constitution which, you know, okay, you know, interesting 10 of 13 of the colonies. Yeah, they were part of ratifying the Constitution so it's not like, you know these things were happening and the black population was not aware of them. So, they were very much engaged in the, the, the ideals and the ideas in the country. And that's why you get this kind of very, very in the early 20s. There's this strong sense of what can be termed as black Americanism, as a lot a lot of people call it because there's, there's always this language of our founding fathers, our country. It's, it's, it's never this is very of course you get a few sporadically but it's, it's, it's never in a sense like we're completely done with this nation it's always in recognition of these principles are right. They're of course in their language they're Christian, you know, they're God created us all equal but they are very in, in essence very individualistic and, and very much in that mode. Now, now, I think a lot of people know Frederick Douglass and of course one of the great orators and one of the great writers in history, and one of great defenders I think of the concept of individual rights. To what extent does he stand out that is, is he part of a group of thinkers is he is he extraordinary even even in the context of the time. I think he is very extraordinary in the context of the time but he is, he is actually what I would I would call part of more of the second generation of this movement so one of one of my one of his rivals you could say and by the way I would always like to point out. Just in the mode of like I say the founding fathers these were not. This were not monolithic views, they were even in the black community around, around whether they were free advocates and all these intellectuals. They were always contesting and debating their ideas so one of them. Douglass is famous rivals is a gentleman called Charles Lennox reman who, by far reading this history is one of one of my favorite and we'll get into why he's one of my favorite and a little bit here but he's, he was the top orator before Frederick Douglass and that's that's part of the but Douglass ends up naming his kid after him and all this but so so Douglass is part of the more second generation but he does stand out as a unique figure in his I think as I would term is he's very individualistic, very fundamental in his language and is talking he is the heart of the issue, and he covers a very wide range of topics that they far they go far past just slavery and, you know, we can we can get into some more that but just to name some other heroes so people can have things to Google we have gentlemen who participated in the American Revolution, who then becomes a wealthy sales maker and part of the Boston Philadelphia crowd. We have Robert Purvis, another big advocate of equal rights and again these aren't just and maybe this can point to why some of this history isn't to focused on is because we get overshadowed by the whole abolitionist label, and we lose track of, you know, well what comes after we end slavery is well what do the laws look like what do these rights, what are the exact rights that people have these freed people. So, we have gentlemen like I said James Fortin, Robert Purvis. Absalom Jones, another favorite of mine is Richard Allen who's a preacher, but again, even the so I'll say this even the religious figures again are very much. Even when they make that they use their religious language and use their religious arguments that when they're talking and speaking they're very much in the mode of also flipping into political arguments. Everybody's calling on the declaration the Constitution, of course those famous words, but you know we are all created equal, and it's, it's, it's the through line of this Americanism is so strong it can't be ignored. That's amazing I mean it it's. What do you think explains the fact that we don't really know these names that we don't really know about anything about these figures. I mean, and ask you this how well known are they within the black community today. So, obviously the general public, almost not well, not well known at all. You'll see mention of them of course they're, they're on some of the, they get they brought up on the black websites. People may know Prince hall because he's a part of, you know, the church and these Masonic kind of organizations but in Richard Allen to but pretty much almost no mention of them now to go to your first question. Like I said, I indicated that we kind of get lost in the whole abolitionist label. So that's that explains why some of it gets overshadowed but it also I think it's, you know, these people were very much in that of pro America, even though it had its squabbles in their debates and some of them, you know, debated this and had to change their mind over their life, but they were very much in that pro America mode. This is our country when one of them Reverend Richard Williams actually has a speech literally titled, this is our country in 1830. You know, like these people were very much in the, in the camp of regardless of the contradictions or what maybe what may be happening now who's ruining the country now that was the view. There's people in in the country now whose ideas are tainting the founders and they looked at the founders with this reverence that, you know, they use language like our dear, our dear fathers are it always when they talk it has this reverence and this love for the founders to it that's, you know, you just don't find today. So it didn't bother them or did it that the founders were slave owners that some of the font at least were slave owners. But it absolutely didn't, you know, this is why I appreciate the perspective of objectivism gave me as well like, of course, of course they they took note of these things. And they mentioned it often. And even you know when it came up in some pro slavery pro racist arguments that founders were slave owners, but they would say no that does not. That does not take away from the fundamental principles of the nation that doesn't that doesn't a contradiction in the application of the principle doesn't change that the principle is right and that we with our minds as individuals can work out that these principles are correct and and should be followed and you know, even if that of course I keep alluding to the fact that even though if that was couched in some type of religious, you know, God created all. Everybody the founders language is couched in that as well so it's everywhere during this period. So what would they what do you think they would think of today's college civil rights movement I don't know if you want to call it that but you know kind of today's hatred of the founding hatred of the founders and a lot of that based on the fact that they own slaves. I mean they, this was part of, like in the 1830s this became part of the debate. I mean, and from a slight and you could see this as one of the debates with between garrison and Frederick Douglass and the garrison in camp of this whole, you know, are we going to engage in a political process to undo slavery both do not like slavery but how are we going to go about fighting it are we just going to give up on the country as a whole. Are we going to give up on the Constitution as a whole as the Constitution evil document, or is it a fundamentally good document that we can use we can, we can press people to say essentially say do better. They would find, I think a large majority, even, even some of those who who wanted to leave who ended up in the opinion of we wanted to leave America, we're still on the side of, you know, they still claim the declaration of independence as a, as a great document the principles is a great document so that it would be completely at odds I think with the civil rights movement let me say one more other thing to indicate why Charles Linux remand was one of my favorites and we can get more into. We can get more into this later but especially when we talk about reconstruction but you know in the 1830s 1840s he was already drawing a distinction between what they term civil rights and social rights, which means which essentially came down to he was a distinction between equality under the law and what you know equality in society how you're treated a private the kind of private public distinction, and he was in very clear terms he was drawing this distinction, and it was, it was just it's an incredible thing to read Frederick Douglass also drew the same distinction and a couple of advocates, some white advocates as well window Phillips drew this this distinction which was an understanding of rights that it wasn't popular it wasn't like why spread at the time but spell this out like play it out what what is the you know, how did they view this playing out that. Good. So first let me explain what civil rights what they meant by civil rights, because, as you alluded to in the beginning, which is very good that it's an ambiguous term. It has its chance meaning has changed over time. So by civil rights, they understood civil rights at the time to mean essentially what they would they would allude to natural rights and the right to mobility, liberty, freedom of contract freedom of property and due process of law in courts. You know, so, and social rights. Later on it becomes a big hubbub in the reconstruction era but it was this idea of, you know, this distinction of getting rid of the charge that you know you wanted you, you were trying to legislate. You know, white people trying to treat you a certain way with their, their own in private association even uses the word, you should be free to associate we should be free to associate and make our own decisions with people, but as that is completely different thing, then then the law coming in stepping in and forcing. So social is about how we direct with one another on a voluntary basis civil rights is is in a sense relates to a relationship with the government or the government's relationship to us. Yes, and, and it comes through very strongly. A lot of it. I wouldn't say most, but some of my favorite advocates like I alluded to remand. Even Justice Harlan even though he's a mixed bag. Frederick Douglass we're on we're very much clear of, we're trying to focus on equality under the law, and we're not looking for to be treated nice and that that is something we can we have the ability to solve by all means I should also like to point out with this other point is most of these guys besides if they were preachers or orators also usually had a successful trade. They were successful businessman. Some of them were quite wealthy. Actually, that's how a lot of these things got funded so it is the world of doing business and having your business acumen and your, your ability to be known around the neighborhood and around your community was. They saw how much that that could carry you socially. So, yeah. Yeah, and I was I was thinking that these guys had some amazing self esteem to be able to, you know, stand up to the world around them stand up to the conventional wisdom and then articulate this amazing radical case that was consistent with the much of America turned their back against. And that's the steam. It makes sense to me that that self esteem policy comes from their achievements in business that is that those two are connected. Absolutely incredible remand actually himself can from a, you know, quite a family of hard workers, wealthy people who who made it in in a couple different business ventures. I think his main one was chimney cleaning which was quite big at the time. James Fortin was a ship maker sale maker. And where did they live in the north so they lived all in these are massive. These are Massachusetts well, Fortin was a Philadelphia guy and remand was a Massachusetts guy, Boston. So, yeah. So, these intellectuals are working in the 1830s 1840s 1850s, they're part of the abolition movement, or would you say a part of the abolition. They're adjacent to the abolition movement, some of them are aren't in the anti slavery society some are but they're adjacent to it they're part of those causes but. Actually, let me step back a little bit and back to what makes America different and kind of have the context and structure of America system, kind of set up these fights and these debates is that because of America's ideas on self governance and you you probably know a lot about this as well. America's ideas and self governance how that was understood at the times, at the time, even though they were, they were pushing away from the more British form of government, there was this strong impulse to have a lot of power in the country. And, you know that's where we get this whole states rights thing from. And one of the major challenges of this whole civil rights battle is pushing against the states, states ability to regulate especially regulate individual rights. So this, there's this concept called the domestic police powers, which isn't which David Bernstein who's who's talked a lot about this and this is a connection to. This also comes up in coven and recently has came up a lot this domestic police power, which explicitly give states the ability to regulate individual rights is a big component of this civil rights movement, and why. So these battles start on that kind of grassroots state level. And these movements were kind of focus in the states and they they become kind of the training grounds for a lot of these activists, and who then get related to some of these politicians, like Senator and Stadious Stevens and a lot of these guys who get their early start in these states who then become big figures in the federal government and reconstruction, and we see that's kind of the through line of how these ideas make it into essentially changing the Constitution. So. So we have all this leads ultimately to a civil war. I assume these intellectuals all active during the civil war in support of the north and trying to, to what extent are they thinking about what's going to happen after the civil war to what extent are they preparing for post civil war world. Very much so, I mean during the war that they're advocating. There's a big push there's a lot of you can find a lot of speeches at the time of them, a little bit during and before the war you can find advocacy for equal pay for the soldiers. They're already making bids to in conversation with Lincoln pushing like Lincoln to, you know, engage blacks who want to fight, give them equal pay give them a chance to earn and you know we you know what's the saying, put a musket in his hand and give him his freedom, and they will willingly fight for it, you know, and you know there's a, there's a big push and there's the story I like to tell about kind of. So, I'll mention there's a one of my hobbies, my hobbies and interests in reading history is I want to start writing and learn how to write. Thank you iron ran university I want to write and be able to write some screenplays and turn some of these historical events into a nice couple TV shows. Absolutely. There's, there's some really cool moments so there's this moment of this guy named Robert Smalls who escapes from from the south steals a ship. Does this whole you know sneaky disguise thing steals a ship in the middle of the night, and you know makes it to the north, and then he's part of this effort this major ever and he's kind of like the icing on the cake to convince Lincoln to give black soldiers equal pay back that goes right along the line with the arguments that people like Frederick Douglass was making at the time and, and people like john Mercer Langston was making at the time. And a lot of these guys during the Civil War were making speeches pre emptying the reconstruction error for equality under the law and already getting ready for the fact that once this war is over. You know, cut from experience with this, this already this earlier period that I told you about. They already know what happens when there's a post it's it's kind of like a, you know formula post slavery slavery ends. There's immediately the question of what are these rights that a free black people are going to have and we, we have to answer that and we have to know what that looks like. Yeah, good. I was going to say there's one there's one more thing I should mention with this so just to kind of indicate how how much these activists had it on their mind and others didn't so William Lloyd garrison. When the Civil War ends, he's like, Oh, as an abolitionist the the 13th amendment has passed you know jobs done guys time to you know put up my head in mind he started in the 1830s. He loved white figure late he was completely cherished for his work but he's kind of like oh the fight's done the abolition of slavery is we did it guys and you know Frederick Ellis kind of chimes back like no, no it's not done. You know, look at the black laws that they implemented in some in some of these free northern states, like it is it is not over by a long stretch and you know he has it. He has a speech title or the exact title but it kind of goes along the lines of old old snake new skin type of thing and you know it's it's be wary of abolition and the end of slavery is just not even half the battle maybe 25% of the there's so much more to do when it comes to what is the quality under the law look like and what are the what are the proper rights of not just blacks but citizens. Women, this is where they call it the women question starts to come into focus very much and that's why I like to say, you know this is this is, I don't frame this as black history or African American history. This is very much very much textbook American history and this is very much the intellectual contribution of blacks a lot of people talk about how black people built America and they talked about concrete things like inventions or, or cotton or slave and all that stuff and maybe, you know true but I think they they're completely missing the intellectual contributions far outweigh some of the more material concrete things that are like, you can't, you can't, you can't disregard the contribution to to the 14th amendment that ends up becoming the 14th amendment which he flip it back was if essentially what James Madison was arguing for in the Federalist papers you know that's just I'd like to mention that to show the through line of how it's significant these ideas are. Sorry, so a couple of questions so first. Where is the north, in terms of these racist laws at the, you know, but during the Civil War before the Civil War. Are they still holding on to some of these laws and some of them being peeled. I mean and how extensive are they to what percentage of the north has these kind of racist laws in the books. Percentage wise as heart. I'll say this. So you have places like Vermont and Maine, who pride themselves on being completely without a doubt non racialist societies they were, you know, completely the best on this type of thing places like Massachusetts, you know, with that Massachusetts Pennsylvania, they are far more in the middle. So to speak they they the battles they don't get as bad as the what what can be termed as the Northwest states and more the, the border Northwest states that are right on the border the south for obvious geographical reasons. So as the slaves start to migrate free people escape slaves start to migrate from the south to these northern states. That's when the, a lot of these racist ideas and this like you mentioned this, this, this argument that slavery is good, and a positive starts to pick up. And that that really hits in the 1830s and that's when the, this history really gets going and these battles really get going. And that's when a lot of these state constitutions in this legislation really hits that we need to restrict migration, we need to discourage migration we need to essentially use these regulations to make life a living health of black people so they will stop coming to the state, it will be which they didn't. So how many how many of these states had laws for example the return slaves to the south escape. Well the feet will the fugitive slave law was actually broad scale. Okay, it was federal. But, and that became a whole fiasco because you know it's essentially made a lot of these not as the thought changed in the north it became like, you know you guys are trying to impose, you know these, like how I ran kind of the feudalistic type character the south China impose itself on to the north and it very much becomes this expansion this war of expansion of slavery and encroachment on to the north, but I'd say a good, good 4050% of these states are implementing these, these laws to discourage migration, which is a good, as I like to talk about it's a good. It provides good concrete to think about the immigration topic of today. And because a lot of literally the same language is thrown out. You know that there's black people they're coming they're taking our jobs they're, they're going to be on welfare. And in fact, I should mention a big part of these anti black laws were grafted on to what was called poor or vagrancy laws of the time, because the idea was, you know, already they had laws that said you know we keep poppers and these vagrants should are class that should be, you know, either imprisoned or done away with gotten rid of the out of the state or out of the locality. And then pretty much, you know the argument just took. Once you mix in the races and the argument just took a step up blacks inherently will become vagrants if they're allowed to be free. That's why we need to keep them as slaves yada yada yada. And, and therefore, you know, that's how the connection was made. I'm curious if you've, if you've seen the movie army starred and if so what do you think of it. I have a long time ago. Well, so I, it's kind of not fresh in my memory. It's on my left. I'm going to watch it again but from, but I remember it's it's an amazing movie. It's an amazing movie. I think it's from my perspective, I think it's the best Steven Spielberg movie, you know, other than maybe his ET and his fun kids movies. I think it's his best serious movie that he ever made. And I think it's a fantastic movie. But the ideals of this period and and it's, it's very, very powerful and beautifully acted just beautifully acted. All right, let's see. So civil war happens. It's just pure history just what happens after civil war. So you know the North, the North is occupying the South, they they're free slaves and slave and free. How they treated. How did the laws change. And then how does that evolve so let's first start with just just the facts because I think so many people don't know what actually happens after the after civil war. So the first thing to really ground people's thinking on this is to realize, like I mentioned this whole issue of of the power of the federal government versus the states is completely fresh in everybody's mind is not just a south thing. It's completely fresh. So this is this whole back and forth over how much can, can we really do to free the slaves what can we what can Congress do it has jurisdiction over the District of Columbia but can that extend into freeing the slaves in the country as a whole. And what are the powers of the president becomes a whole thing. And that that whole issue gets brought in obviously when what what happens since we are militarily occupying the South. And then the next step is what are we going to do with these rebel states and as you as you say question of is the emancipation proclamation legit is a real question. It is it was a real question at the time and you know people still debated today. Was it was it legit and that basically that whole that whole discrepancy is over the fact of was the federal government overstepping its powers. Was that just something that could be a military measure, and you know it basically started from it started as a military measure, and then you know it. Once the federal government solidified its position as you know this is a just use of federal power it became legitimate as a, not just military, not just an under occupation thing this is the law of the land type of thing and then that helps with that rate so yeah that's, I was just about to say that's that's where you get the 14th amendment and in the same year you get the Civil Rights Act of night of 1866 to solidify their myth to solidify the fact that all bad badges of slavery all these different kind of indications of the slave rule and the slave holder mentality is to be eradicated out of the country as a whole. And this is like where I like to say civil rights goes federal with the 14th amendment, and that's that's the vision and that's, that's where the whole. You know, for it be hard to understand from kind of our modern perspective like why are they debating so much over what the federal government can do you know, especially sometimes from our perspective it's like the federal the purpose of government is to protect individual rights. And you know of course the federal government can step in when the state government isn't doing that, but in fact at that time and pretty much until the 14th amendment was it was seen as the first you know state state governments completely defined had complete, you know, like way too much latitude over defining you know what were the individual rights of women children, you know, women have to can only have this much property and marriage and they got to regulate all those type of things and define what individual rights essentially were. So. So what happens what what what goes wrong because obviously, you know, there seems to be some good intentions here right after the war and with the 14th amendment that first civil rights bill. There's attempt to really eradicate slavery and provide equal protection under the law. And then things seem to take a bad what was the history there. Obviously, Lincoln getting assassinated doesn't help. That's, there's always that what if question what if Lincoln, and we could talk more about Lincoln's role in all of this. But I indicated this kind of question of what is civil rights and what did that actually mean and this this to me I think is central to what happened in the reconstruction era because this is where the debate becomes fully explicit when we have the records from the reconstruction debates, you know, they're literally asking what what is what is what is civil rights mean, what's encompassed in that category, and they start creating all these other categories of political rights. So civil civil rights as I explained to you before, and then there's political rights which is voting and sitting on juries and stuff like that. And then there's this category of social rights and they mix all these things up and what ends up especially after the Civil Rights Act of 1875 is passed is, you know, the civil rights cases in the 1880s happens and a lot these these debates end up without this concept, being able to be objectively defined and grounded. And some of this stuff gets thrown out and one of the one of the big discrepancies as I indicated before was, you know, how far is the government able to go in protecting quote civil rights, you know, does the, especially in this question of public accommodations this becomes a pretty big issue as well. You know, does that mean this public conveyance is public accommodation this streetcar this hotel this in is able to be regulated and then of course that gets thrown out because the opposition says, you know, no, the government can't intercede with private affairs, and then I'll just add this in, which, if you watch part of one of the brilliant parts of justice Harlan's descent. If you read it is that he points out that, in fact, the states were already for like 100 years 50 years before this were regulating in such a way that said no, these things were not only state sponsored they were state funded they were owned. That's what the public meant. So you get this whole confusion of over and anyone who's interested in when Objectivism talks about public private distinctions. This is like one of the greatest things to study on how much if you don't get this public private distinction thing right. It causes so much confusion to the point where essentially the bad guys make the argument for private, you guys are encroaching on our private property but but yet that that isn't private property that is state funded state sponsored. And of course the good guys don't, they don't go the extra step to say no, that may not be a state founded institution like the police or something but that is, that is a fully state sponsored and in fact state regulated you have, you have a whole list of regulations, you know and that we may not think of it in time now but that went for ends hotels these street cars these things were state regulated state licensed institutions. So, so all this confusion about property rights and what they mean and civil rights and what they mean. Is this a sign that kind of the that generation of intellectuals in the 1830s went around in the 1870s, or it wasn't clear enough for the new generation of intellectuals were just not as not as committed to individual rights, or it wasn't, it wasn't clear enough the, the, the clarity did not, as I'd say, in my opinion the clarity did not cut through enough to for the arguments to stick and for the arguments to reach, you know, just one defined push, you know, you essentially you had people on the same side, coming at it from different angles. There was no clear definition of even like amongst black activists, and even between them and the white politicians what what we mean by civil rights is should civil rights include what we mean by social rights and some are saying yes no we want social equality. That should be included and you get one of the indicators of this confusion is you even get at the times of these laws passing the general public black people going into certain businesses, not even separate from the public accommodations, and they get discriminated on and they're like whoa that's against the law now and you know it's, it's a it's a complete confusion of concepts so it did the, I wouldn't some of them were around some unfortunately died young some of I think some of the best ones died young, but once things got heavily political and later people like Booker T Washington comment on this as well. Things got very polite got into the game of politics. And we start, you know, mixed economy you talk about this a lot. Once we get into the pressure politics and in the pool game. A lot of the trying to find clarity of the fundamental distinctions and all that it kind of falls to the wayside and that's where the ball drops. I'll say one more thing. And you can kind of see indicators of this in in the fact that even though a lot of these advocates in the 1830s 1840s and 1850s were pushing for racial equality under the law. I mentioned the vagrancy laws. They didn't it wasn't like after they got that racial equality. You know after they were able to repeal some of these things in the 1850s right. It wasn't like they didn't turn around and said you know what. We should also apply this you know this this would go extend to women's rights or vagrancy laws, such a class distinction should class distinction shouldn't be made in the law period. But you know they they they weren't going that that deep that fundamental and a lot of that you know the ground kind of collapsed under them. So so tell us about what actually happens during reconstruction that is to what extent the slave is gone slave is illegal. But what what what happens in the south and in terms of you know the quality of life or the kind of life and the laws that that are passed in the south possible. So there's obviously you get johnson in the presidency after Lincoln's assassinated, and he's a little bit more lenient and a little bit more conciliatory towards towards the south so obviously these eventually the the federal government in the military have to. They make compromises if they pull back they pull out and immediately after that the southern government start implementing just like the in the north of 80 years before in the history I was talking about. They start implementing their their black codes and their, and their black laws and even though they may not be they may be on the face of racially neutral. They still have you know just like perfect example is the vagrancy laws they still have class distinctions, and they're still able to set up their governments in such a way that that discriminate that do not properly protect and offer equality under the law. Eventually the the system, you know they they incrementally build their way up till you get to the 1890s and you know you have things like plus EV Ferguson separate but separate but equal and you know that's just a hop skip it away to Jim Crow laws. When did Jim Crow laws actually passed Jim Crow's hit Jim Crow laws hit in the early 1900s, but you can see the precursors, the precursors to what happened in in this kind of reconstruction period. During this period and then during the early days of Jim Crow laws in the early part of the 20th century. To what extent of their black intellectuals. Speaking out against this fighting against this making arguments against it is this white movement of the turn of the 20th century. It absolutely is that's when you get people like w e Dubois Booker T Washington. Douglas dies in a little in there so he's not as prominent but T Thomas fortune. People are around but obviously this is a new generation kind of just like this, the switch after the 1960s you get a new generation of civil rights activists. There's there's some definitely who, in my opinion are more of the socialist leaning so socialism hits quite hard. Yeah, yeah, and and it gets the as passionate are the as they are for equality and against racism, the arguments very much change they lose it to me in my opinion they lose that flavor of calling on the founding principles calling on the founding documents and, you know, and really going towards the and using what is right about the American system fundamentally to their advantage, you know that it just you know it all kind of gets muddled into the language of equality and equality kind of becomes this. Again, it becomes this broad amorphous term that can encompass so many things and you get these explicit calls for a socially quality and, like I said, you get w e Dubois, and the whole w d e Dubois and you get, you get things like, even though Booker T Washington is against segregation laws and he has a whole ideology towards how to combat this system arising in the south and how to heal, and heal and move forward between blacks in the south and in the country and as a whole and he'll race relations, you get groups like w e Dubois kind of attacking him and going against him and, in my opinion, smearing him and smearing his position so it's, you know, it, you, you kind of get this breakdown, in my opinion. So there's a there's a parallel, which is not surprising between, you know, white intellectuals and black intellectuals they're all in a sense by the turn of the century, losing that connection with individual rates with with the founding principles and then understanding of the constitution or the declaration. It's absolutely amazing how like some of these people, like for example, again w e Dubois the key example like literally schooled in Europe type of thing, you know, you know, school in Russia had schooled you know they come back and they influence others with these this ideology and it's it's like you like you hit it right on the head it's the intellectual shift completely changes you even have, you know you have the later generation even criticizing Douglas you know and you know maybe Douglas hit those you know typical those old timey Douglas ideas won't work we need we need something new and and you know the newness is is it's more reactionary than in my opinion fundamental and more principle. I know it's tragic how the, but 100 years after founding 120 years at the founding. There's almost no intellectual standing up for the ideas of the founding and the ideas and really the key idea of individual rights and therefore the whole debate gets distorted and all the debates not just the debate about race but the debates about everything. Yeah, I mean, yeah at the turn of the century you, especially as they get involved people get involved in politics I mean there was an uptick in reconstruction in black political leaders, which, you know is often cited by people as a very positive I'm on the side that yes it can show progress but it's not. It shouldn't be your main indicator of good things just because they're in politics in fact you know, once, once you get into that pool game. You, when you uncover a lot of that story is a lot of things that just you know that's when you start seeing this. It's not just black people are voting for the Republican Party anymore you you get this whole, you know where we're pushing towards this Democrat side we're pushing towards these more socialistic views where we're looking for more social policy social programs. A whole slew of different, you know, political things that it's less full it's a less focused and principled movement, all together. Jim Crow laws study in the early part of 20th century. Part of the response to that is is a massive migration of blacks to the north. How are they, how are they treated in the north what what happens in the north as a consequence of this, this big migration up north. So, um, obviously in the north. At the time, it's not as many as it's not like the north of the older years where we have you know these registration laws and all these kind of things. But the north is a little bit more welcoming the north is a little bit rich shows more signs of opportunity, but the obvious problem which is pointed out by a lot of people at the time, including Washington and people people later on in the civil rights movement is that, you know, a lot of the black population are southerners they've been southerners for a long time, and you have a cultural clash that happens in the north. And that often people know have noted that that clash isn't just racial. It's interracial in the sense that northern blacks and southern blacks clash and you know, a lot of these economic and issues start to clash with each other this this prospect of jobs and finding work and and the whole prospect of how cities are, you know, because we start to get the boom of cities and the outgrowth of cities and that, you know, these attitudes start to form around that and that's, I think, early on, this is when you get to see a shift towards the Democrat Party as well when you get towards the depression and and things like that. And that's when the big push towards social programs and those type of movements really, really, really get going, and the idea that we're voting for who offers us programs and social security and yeah. But there was there were quite a few racist laws in the north. I mean, redlining was a real thing. And it was government redlining and minimum. As I've heard, I've heard economists like Walter Williams argue the minimum wage will basically passed as a way to keep blacks out of that. Not be able to compete with the unions. Again, very similar to the debates about immigration today. Spot on and one other thing, which people mentioned redlining a lot but what I think is even more interesting is you get residential zoning laws as well, which are very, very, very impactful and, you know, just it shows a sign of, you know, even mind you that this whole movement a war has happened. There's a there's been a whole push for equality under the law and you have to kind of act yourself how how such a reversion happened and it, you know, and it takes it takes a good 40 years after that to get you know, a big mass movement pushed against that. So let's let's talk about the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s, which is what most people think about when they think about civil rights movements because, you know, because that's more recent memory I guess and and the impact that they had on on current culture. What characterizes the civil rights movement is compared to previous ones as compared to the one before the war and the turn of the century civil rights movements. What was different about civil rights movements of the 50s and 60s. I think, well, one thing to note is. It was where I want to tackle this. The 50s and 60s movement. As you noted it, I asked you in a talk when I got I was there in Austin asked you about this. I believe you with even a talk on China and I asked you why why and they take on they were intellectuals. It was an intellectual movement to my in my opinion not as strong though not as strong of an intellectual movement founded and rooted in the principles of America as this this first civil rights movement this this movement of what we hear these these these, you know, these black founders and and kind of drawn heavily on, and really having a positive view towards what America could be and should be, even though they use the language of what America could be and should be it was, I think it was animated by this kind of fed up attitude right in some cases rightfully so. And that's that was understandable but in terms of like political philosophy and ideology it. It did not have the same underpinnings and it had this kind of idea of, you know you guys, something is owed to us in in terms of, you know, programs need to be set up. It needs to go farther one one book I'm found fond of for this that most people don't know about is Martin Luther King's final book, which is called where do we go from here. And it's it's the final book he wrote so it's after the Civil Rights Act is passed and it's it's like the last book he wrote and where he talks about. What I would suggest that is and bring that up is it gives you a flavor of. First of all, he talks a lot about his Stokely Carmichael. He talks a lot about the young militants, the, the new the new burgeoning group that have came along with him. And that it seemed to be getting purchased and getting rise after the success of his civil rights movement, but he also very much frames his his ideas of how much farther we have to go. And it's it's very much in the mode of that farther, of course he pays service to the fact that there's individual personal aspects that people in the black community have to do but a large part of it is, is based in what the collective can do and this idea of this, you know this of the masses together and this mass movement of what we have to kind of bond together to do to help each other out and where I think is very much in contrast to the, the earlier movement was very much about, you know, let's remove these these legal and then our individual abilities and capabilities are going to push us forward. And there was, I mean, like I said, a lot of the guys of and people have made the historians have noticed this. A lot of the civil rights leaders of the 1960s were not so much businessmen they were preachers, except for one of my favorites, TRM Howard, who I suggest everybody should look into. Besides him a lot of them were more on the preacher activists, you get this activist side of it, besides political activists type of thing, and versus you know the earlier movement was full of, even they before they were political activists they were activists in their communities, they were activists in the sense of setting up mutual aid societies, they would they put their money where their mouth is literally they were fundraising, they were setting up institutions building their own schools. And you know, some of them were traveling to Africa to see if and traveling to Africa and Canada to see if other opportunities existed while running their businesses, coming back to America and saying hey we can go here. But even if we go here we still have to fight. We still have to fight in America for for our country and there was very much that view of there wasn't there wasn't much of, even the guys who are like this country is messed up and there might be no hope they were still like this is our country and we deserve to have a right to be citizens here. I think in 1960s a lot of elements of you know, we got to get rid of, we got to get away from white people we got to get rid of white people. People are no good for us you know they they can just only be allies to our movement whereas you know I didn't touch on this but I mean the first civil rights movement has a ton of boatload of white civil rights heroes that should also get a lot of a claim and recognition that you know, black activists were very much engaged with they were friends with you know these people slept eight stayed together when, when, when conventions and, and congregation happen these people were working together, close knit. So you don't get this same type of eight you get to you get a lot of reverence I always tell this story of, which I would love to depict on TV is Charles Sumner. As he's like past he's dying on his deathbed and he's like, please pass my civil rights act because he's he's vying in Congress for the civil right that tells that's his last dying words to Frederick Douglass, you know that's he. Yeah, and there's a lot of other stories like that it's just powerful moments. So, would you say that the earlier civil rights movements, to one extent another way individualistic and then by the 60s it's already collectivism and today. It's it's almost racism I mean it's it's it's kind of it's the civil rights have evolved into a significant themselves. Yeah, I mean that's completely how I would characterize it. I mean, there's almost to my knowledge there's no claims of anything like affirmative action, anything like special handouts. In some cases, there's even, you know, the way they, especially in the earlier years the way they make their arguments. They're like, you know, there's this case of Paul coffee this is like going flying back to the 1780s where he's like, you know if if you guys are going to to tax us for something. We want our rights if not we don't tax us, but we in there's very much playing with the idea of taxation and handouts and we don't want relief and making arguments that we pay more into relief than we take and we're not going to be a burden. They were very good so here's a here's something that comes out in this earlier movement. One of the charges against them was this idea that they were going there inferior and they're going to be on the dole. They're just going to be a burden. They were and there was a, they were so adverse to this idea that they, they were very much critical intra the black community like, you know, those of you who are be allowing yourselves to be labeled in such a way as being lazy or whatever even though the racial component the deterministic component of this stereotype is obviously wrong. Do not give credence whatsoever to that we should be hard workers we should be productive individuals and we should be creating charitable organizations to work together and it's voluntary organizations to work together. And there's a story I could tell related to that. But yeah, it, but it's the mode is so much more individualistic and in so many different aspects that, you know, it's a complete reverse the the collectivism is on on the outskirts and in this vague whereas in it's the reverse in the modern movement. So it's a little bit of a Rand's opposition to civil rights act in the 19 of the 60s. Yeah, I first want to say something about some of her observations because she indicates some of her observations of the history of reconstruction and what kind of happened at the time of the Civil War and I just want to say and kind of the landscape of early America and even though she doesn't go into detail and this extra specific she's, she's very spot on in how she she notices the trend and I wish she knew about some of these, some of these heroes and was able to read them because I, I would love to hear her commentary I have no doubt that she would have, she would have employed a lot of these examples in the words of these people because they were so individualistic and they were so pro America. So, as I understand it when it comes to the Civil Rights Act, I'm Rand is very much recognizes that it's important to make a distinction. In terms of private and public. And that this idea of, of collective or whatever what I don't know if she uses this language in that essay specifically but here's how I always love how to think about it. This idea of collective guilt. Of, of the sins of the past of, of, you know the what the wrongs that have been done by people of your racial category is is completely wrong and just accepting the very premise of the racist because it's it's the, it's the inverse it's the inverse of saying you know we have collective pride and all of these things and trying to claim the non voluntary the non accomplished the non achieved in your genetic characteristics, and, and then trying to legislate that into law is is a major major failure, and just a wrong way to go and kind of, it sets up. It sets up, you know, all these different things like the perfect example which he does talk about his quotas. It sets up a terrible system that punishes everybody know what nobody wins from this system on a in a in terms of the actual effects of the quotas, but and just in an intellectual and psychological perspective it is, it is a completely low self esteem way to view kind of the whole situation. So we have a bunch of super chat questions, but do we ask you. Yeah, we'll go, we'll go to them and by the way guys. Let's see. You can ask you can ask questions so use the super chat feature if you'd like to ask questions. Stick to the topic it or something you think that that you know I just has an opinion on, but the super chat is open is available and use it. So let me ask you about kind of current events and primarily you mentioned this at the beginning. Do you have this argument about systemic race racism to what extent is, is this systemic racism in our society today, to what extent was there in the past. And, and do you think what direction do you think we're actually moving in. So, can I have I want to answer the second question. First, I don't from from the ground level I don't see us moving in a good direction because on both sides are from many of the different angles I see people trying to approach these topics. It's, it's, it's very non individualistic non fundamental thinking about these issues and not addressing the crux of them and the essential of them. Now, and pretty much just breeding more tribalistic thought and encouraging more tribalistic done. Maybe me and my friends, because I'm still part of this network of people from talk and stuff. We share. I mean, we share tribalistic takes all day long I pretty much I probably have 1015 tribalistic type collectivist videos on my phone right now waiting for me to watch of crazy things being said on tiktok you know, crazy things being said just out there in the culture and be surprised how many mainstream people are saying things that from all sides, from all sides, you know, somebody asked me about you know these conservative pages yesterday asked me about these conservative pages constantly posting videos of you know black people attacking white people, which is, it is a real phenomenon to problem, but is that like, is that actually helping is that actually getting somewhere when they say see do you, they'll post something like do you notice the problem do you notice a trend and it's it and to me it's indicative of the fact that no one is actually operating on an individual individualistic mode of thinking, nor are they trying to address any root problems, which, you know, psychologically we talk about something maybe like self esteem. We talk about the philosophy of individualism and how that could help us think through a lot of these racial issues now let me get back to you mentioned systemic racism which has gone through different forms and conceptions and I, I'm a, I'm a Stokely Carmichael reader reader so I get it straight from the source on what was meant from by that and the way it's expressed today I think I don't think I find what most people mean and try to insinuate by it doesn't, it doesn't really exist and I want to connect it to this history, part of the reason I love studying the history and getting these lessons from history as I ran off of the notes history is like a laboratory for ideas you know, you know, using thought experiments giving you a bunch of variables to think about, you know, it this history really gives you a sample of what which to really what it means to have whatever we mean by systemic racism but racism implemented into our society, whether it is political or social and different ways to actually deal with that and a lot of what we see today, it's at least on the political side, on the political legal side is almost non existent, but socially, interestingly enough, that I think there is a lot of racialized thinking and I think a lot of it is often exactly is actually in the, I think, in the sense that I ran hit on that most people don't hit on where it's, you know, this kind of positive motive, you know, I was like to mention like we are the Slades my last name so we are the Slades and we have these characteristics and it's more in that kind of positive familial thinking but it's, it's not couched in the racial language that people are used to, but it seems like that that form of racialized thinking is, is on the uptick and it's, you know, it's troublesome and worrisome to me but, like I said, the way a lot of people think and assert the claim of systemic racism. I don't think it's true and I think I indicated some of the, some of the things I indicated to you earlier about the founding and when they talk about the nation, being racist at its core, like, I mean, it is so far away from the truth, when not only was the principles is what made it possible, why do you think a civil rights movement was possible in America is because of these principles and these people taking these principles into hand and using them and developing them and that's, that's part of, it's not just like they, they just spouted what the founder said they develop these ideas that made it into changing our constitution changing our documents, and then you have things like, Oh, I don't think I mentioned this here's one little thing I like to bring up the articles of confederation and people talk about the founding of this country is rooted in racism. The article is a conceded from Federation, which is like the Constitution before the Constitution some people like to think of it. There was a vote to add the word white the three, the racist South went to add white into it, which would have completely changed the, you know, makeup of the country and would have had serious implications that vote was lost eight to three, which is sustained eight to three. Yep, that's a big vote. That's a big vote. Eight to three to not add the word white. So, when, so then when you go forward to the dread Scott decision one of the worst Supreme Court decisions where Justice Tawny is kind of trying to call on these historic points that this nation was founded for white people and racism and black people weren't voting at the founding he's absolutely wrong. He's terribly wrong. And this is also a trend where I've kind of haven't got a name for it yet but there's this is trend where a lot of the ways people think about this seems to be southern. It's taken on a lot of their facts take on southern propaganda, essentially, a lot of stuff, the way that a lot of these, there are a lot of people think about America's history, especially the in the racial sense comes from what ended up being like you take the example of the lost cause, the lost cause myth, you know, this civil war wasn't really about slavery had nothing to do with slavery. Cotton was, yeah cotton was the most, you know, abundant gold mine of America built America all of these things are literally from southerners who are arguing for people like john Hammond, john C calhoun. Yep. George Fitzhugh or people were arguing for the positive good and the moral right of slavery so it's just an interesting phenomenon to me. So let's do some of these super chats. We've already gone almost an hour and a half. Michael asks, did the funding fathers ever explicitly use the phrase individual rights. It seems to be only implicit in the writings was ran the only thing could explicitly use in place individual rights as the standard. I mean use rights. I'm sure Locke uses individual rights I'm pretty sure. I'm not sure. I think I've seen Locke use individual rights before. I know he's used when early when they use the term civil rights they used it to make a distinction between government and religion, and kind of freedom from religion but individual rights. I'm not too sure of. I definitely not I haven't seen it come up. I've seen it with much frequency of note, but it's very seriously implied. I'll say that it's very much implied in the language that they use the rights are of individuals individuals. I think that's all over that that that is what they mean by rights. I don't think they can, they can conceptualize anything else, and it comes out and I'll say that and it comes out most. But when they're when they're talking about, especially why we have it, when it when it comes out when they're speaking about how it's from our individual nature, independent nature as a rational independent thinking being there very much they talk about this and this comes up in the debates on, you know, our black people capable of having rights are they worthy of natural rights, and it comes up in the context of, well, yes, they are even the ones that say this is kind of they comes up in the context of the people that say no they're not capable of this type of rational independent thinking. The opposition is saying no they are absolutely cable and it's it's usually proven and given as examples on individual case by case basis is, I mean, and there's this famous example of like Benjamin Banneker and in correspondence with and, you know, he Benjamin Banneker is like you know what you said about black people not being capable of independent individual, you know, this higher level rational thinking and then you know he sends him I think it's an almanac of his and you know, you know, Thomas Jefferson like this is incredible I think he sends it to France or something like that. Let's see, Michael, Michael says the thinkers he says, the figures priors to Douglas a new to me, I could use a repeat of their names to aid for the research. Get a pen and paper ready Michael. So, um, let's go with James Fortin. Richard Allen. Richard Purvis. P, you are vi s Charles Linux remand. And here's some people I should have mentioned. David Walker. I'll say something remind me to say something about David Walker. David Jenkins, and I mean that'll get them going and that'll get you going and and David Walker. Yeah, I'll say something and just to throw this out. I will post some stuff in the comment section I'm a big YouTube guy so I'll be in your comment section after the video and on my Twitter as to shout out to my coach at a are you Don Watkins the awesome Don Watkins he told me that I should be active on Twitter after this so if you guys follow my Twitter I will, I will be repeatedly posting a lot of these speeches, these great pieces of writings for the rest of my life for you guys on Twitter. Excellent go to the Twitter. Twitter link is at the bottom of the description in the in the videos to go find that it's also on the, I think included in the podcast. So go to that and subscribe to Isaiah's. Or Ibis is Twitter account. So, um, David Walker in 1830. And when tensions are really getting hot on, you know, there's race riots there's, you know, there's a lot of white terrorism at the time because this is when we're picking up on racial tension. A lot of this. This is in, well, this is in North Massachusetts area, but the racial tension is all across the north and the country as a whole but especially in the north you have like you have the Cincinnati riots which was a complete, you know, terrible riot of white violence against black people, you have what's David Walker's appeal, which is given at a black convention conference because they start in 1830s they start what's called the colored conventions which go all the way until after reconstruction, which are regular meetups in different cities that happen, you know, every year year round, black congregations it started small but you know they get up to 3000 people, very organized we have the records of them very organized things. And he does this appeal that ends up getting rejected, by the way by the black delegates rejected it, but he he he publishes this fiery appeal called David Walker's appeal that completely sends white people in the country the racist white people completely, you know, mad because he's coming with this fiery language of the declaration you guys are not keeping to the founding principles he's quoting, we're all created equal and he's he's like our founding fathers these great men have have crafted these amazing document and you guys are in contradiction to this and slaves we should pass this document you should pass my book out my appeal out to the slaves and everybody should hand because you know obviously they don't want this to happen this is this is partly why the gag rule starts getting started as well, which I'll say side sidebar is a great concrete example for anyone who wants to know what real censorship looks like this, this is this history has concrete for everything but this is what censorship looks like the gag rules, but anyway. So he sends out this fiery appeal it's a long appeal of just crushing the the arguments against black inferiority and the, the argument for slavery and it sends slave owners in the south. And it's, it's, it's, it's a big fiasco and it's a great piece of writing that I recommend you you're on I would love to hear you talk about it in a video but it's amazing piece of writing. Send me the link. So, so yes, I mean, anything that said slave owners into a mad frenzy is is gets a thumbs up for me. Let's see, Adam says. Very interesting and informative. I'm curious if you find your interactions with modern day civil rights activists are positive. Are they less willing to engage in discussing discussion of this history. This is, this is why I'm glad you give me a chance to come on here because I think everybody should, you know, it's not you don't have to go as deep as I did, but everybody should know this stuff as someone who supports America and wants to champion the principles, because I found in conversations, a lot of the the concrete I'm able to weave in, especially with the philosophy of objectivism and the principles. It neutralizes people and it gets it actually gets people to sit down and listen. And I've, I've, I've had way and trust me have a lot of you. We talked about my tiktok experiences I used to be in debate rooms with 400 people on a zoom call, just waiting to tear my head off. Like, it really neutralizes a lot a lot of the concrete and examples I can pull out neutralizes people and, and has them listen to what, to what's being said and it provides a lot of nice bridge to communicate some of the higher level more abstract things in such a way that I mean, honestly, no one you can't you can't say anything when I'm, I'm, I'm pulling out historical examples. I have, I have the receipts as they say I have the receipts to back it up and, you know, these arguments are so ironclad given by these people and they're so strong and convincing and powerful. And, and what they did is so powerful that. But of course, you know, they stick to their views, obviously, but they're way more willing to listen than just versus you know just giving out, you know, typical examples or some of the other stuff that, you know, maybe used the Thomas soul type of stuff or anything like that but having this history behind to make your points. It's amazing. It's absolutely incredible and people people will listen. Absolutely. Good. Let's see. Adam asks, could you comment in the influence of God I'm not going to be a pronounce this tattoo sx, because this. I have no idea. I wish I could copy paste this into the chat maybe you know how to pronounce this and maybe you know who do you have the chat over there on. Yeah, I do. It's a ton of easy quotes. No, it's not in his quotes it's something more complicated than that. It's that. And then there's a continuation, founder of the corpse of engineers and the military academies and his black student, a jipper all the pioneer of US technology in this case ironwork startup. I am. Oh, thankfully I don't think I said it in my intro, but I am absolutely by no means an expert by I'm a committed and interested student and you have just given me another historical lead to search down on I'm I have no idea who this guy is. I'm putting in the chat the second name as well. Let me see the second name. Yeah. Oh, these are names I'm not familiar with. Good. Well, Adam, you will expand it. I business horizons. This is good. This is good to two way street. It's great. All right, thanks. All right guys, let me oops, what did I do. Okay, let me remind everybody that there is kind of a competition going on in the super chat on the interviews. Right now I think the record for super chat was done by Alex Epstein. So, if you want, I miss to beat Alex which would be cool. Meet Alex it's cool in my book. Me too, but it doesn't mean another one. I don't want you to be. We've got a way to go so 100 just to get us 650 goal. And I think Alex was like close to 1000 so over 1000 I can't remember but but we've got a while to go so. Okay, I encourage you people if you if you enjoyed this and you've been and you're benefiting and you so you want to see more of these interviews then do super chats or just one of these what do you call them stickers stickers. So I have something I can add. We have a ton of questions so. Oh, I'll do it real quick on the last guy he sent a grip a hole just scrolling through the Wikipedia page so it turns out he was he intern and worked for a period for the household and attorney of Elizabeth Freeman mum bet. So this is a I don't know if you've heard the story of mum bet but this is very interesting story this is a woman who essentially sued and one for her freedom in early American in the early Republic and I always like to talk about this example simply because you know it all started with her over hearing the discussion over the Massachusetts Constitution and the line. And once she heard that she went to this abolitionist attorney named Theodore Sedgwick and sued for her freedom and that started a whole process where other people got freed, which then eventually led to the ending of the slave trade. So just I always bring that up. And I did in my. The students loved it in my civil rights course at higher ground because it's it's a perfect example of on the concrete level, how these principles were like a woman overheard someone talking about this idea the very idea she couldn't from whatever she couldn't even write or read but she overheard the idea. And as soon as she heard that she pressed it and went to an attorney they pressed it and she got her freedom and it's, there's a bunch of freedom suits just like that so freedom suits in general something to look up and it's, it's just, it's just, you know, credence to like there's no place like America as a way I'll put it. All right, Mike says a great guest. I, I took, it took someone who obviously understands individual rights and private property to tell me things I didn't know about like the black laws of the north and how things were bad reconstruction. Thank you Mike. Yes, absolutely. I agree with all that Ian says very interesting history that I didn't know very well. I hope that in addition to tick tock in YouTube, I just wait some essays and books at some point would love to eat more from him. One of my great mentors see Bradley Thompson and Greg Salmieri have definitely encouraged me to I have told me I have, I've pitched like two books they say I have some good book ideas. And then I'm working with a shout out to the undercurrent I will be and are you my professor Keith Lockett who's teaching me how to be a great writer. I will be working on my writing skills and be writing a lot on a lot of this stuff and other topics so coming soon guys. Looking forward to it. When a friend of Aristotle says, Isaiah, have you read or have you tried to read Abraham, Abraham, candy. If so, what's your opinion. I have read. I've read some of Abraham candy it is. It's, um, there you go. I'll just say it's very low tier intellectual. And after, like I said, after you read some of it pales in comparison to some of these heroes I read honestly that's that's that's what I'll say. If you want to read somebody who and you want to read about people who know what they're talking about and who have something fundamental and important to say, please check out some of these early black leaders because Abraham candy is, he's essentially a charlatan and, you know, you know, people deserve a better and he's capitalizing on on on built on collectivism on subjectivism. I mean, I mean, I mean, it's it's it really is how hopefully I intend to make my way onto a stage with him one day and I'll say that. Looking forward to that. If we ask, can you articulate the distinction between what objectives mean by systemic in the context of systemic racism, I assume, and what the leftist mean by systemic in the phrase systemic racism, the rational versus irrational use of the term. I think, well, and maybe you'll have a different view of this I've, I find that that the adjective systemic sometimes it creates more some in some cases it creates more confusion than necessary. My best shot at it is the rational of rational take on what systemic would mean and what have to mean would be. Oh, and we kind of went over this at the seminar. It would have to mean something like when we're talking about politically something that's embedded into or into the legal system. It gets it gets fuzzy. It's explicitly into the legal system and it gets fuzzy when we're talking about maybe private and I think there's somewhere where a private and public distinction should be made because it gets a little fuzzy when we're talking about maybe a private corporation who may have we in the seminar we use this example of corporate culture. You know, there there there are corporate cultures that could be, you know, throughout throughout the company but you know is systemic the right word for it. Yeah, I don't I don't think so and I think it I think that it creates more trouble than that than being able to actually understand the phenomenon that's going on. And I agree with that I think the left purposefully doesn't want to define it because they wanted to leave it vague and and so it for them it means there's a lot of racism out there or there's you know the cops are racist or the or the institutions are racist, but but you see their standard for racism is and this is interesting the standard for racism is outcomes are not equal. So their proof of systemic racism is blacks generally a poor than whites, they shouldn't be, we're all equal. So the fact that they're, you know, poor than whites means they must be racism, or they're more blacks in jail than they are whites. Therefore they must be systemic racism that in the criminal justice system and things like that which again throw back real quick to this history, such an argument, never comes up when they're there they're racism that exists and of course, part of that is because most of it is explicit but there's cases where they're talking about things that may not be explicit, but it's never some argument like there's you know, they were looking at the consequences of the people are things like that it's, or, you know, this weird type of disparity argument it's always rooted in some something that you can actually concretely point to and show how the mechanisms are working, and how, how they, you know, always give the example like I spoke a little about the vagrancy laws and how after, after legislation went past so it was like we have to implement race neutral laws, they use the vagrancy laws. Yes, they didn't address the vagrant these activists didn't address the vagrancy laws but some of the people were able to key into the fact that, you know this key he last year he presented us a law this same law and he'd had racist language in it he was trying to do it against and now it says vagrancy but all of them walk around applying it to black and they apply the law wrongly and that's what we're against that's what they would we're against this idea that in America we apply the law unequally to citizens of America. That's exactly that's the that's explicitly what they're getting they said literally that is un-American that is un-American that is not what America represents it represents the rule of law and due process of law. Right, Richard says, I wonder if slavery left a residue of institutional dependence that manifests as separate as reparate as reparations they demand for reparations for example, have your studies found historical examples of exploitation of black dependence. Right now I'm, and maybe you have a different view but I'm very hesitant against that specifically I think because of the work of Robert Higgs and Thomas soul I think they do a great, they do great economic work on this front and historical work, historical work and showing that, you know, once, once the chains once the barriers come down the black growth is so in the, especially in the reconstruction era actually even is so expansive. It's so quick and it's I think, what's the static climbs. I think right after the Civil War in the reconstruction period to the 1900 I think the economic growth the rate was like double that of the country itself or something like that, of the black communities. It's so incredible. The fortitude and you know, right now I've been reading a lot about black wealth, even during, you know, the early 1900s. I think this idea of dependency. I think this is just deterministic to me it's just deterministic thinking it's shot through to me and there's an aspect of it I think the welfare state is created. Yeah, exactly, which is, which is what I think Thomas soul has been able to show that really what happens is we don't just see this long block of decline. We actually see a lot of progress, a huge amount of progress and then we don't see necessarily this complete drop off. We see drop offs in certain areas, in certain aspects which I'm a big advocate of individualizing your perspective in looking at statistics. Like, be very suspicious of aggregating your view on when looking at statistics and economics, especially wealth growth because there's so many variables to consider that they don't capture what individuals are doing. Thank you, Richard. Alright, on the leeway says what do you see in the US today that gives you hope for the future. I mean, every time I go to, maybe this is, this is a little cheeky and it's a cop out answer. But every time I go to Ocon, I see, I see a lot of hope. Every time I watch the Iran brook show, I got a lot of hope I mean, I got to be hopeful because Davis is going to study YouTube channel that's that. Yeah, I mean, I do watch a lot. Okay, so I do watch a lot of YouTube and even there's a lot of special made well maybe more in the history space. Yeah, maybe some economic YouTubers but there's a lot of great history YouTubers out there who are an objective is, but who have the when you follow the facts of history they come out with so many great ideas and so much great things to say, and great perspectives they know it may not be all the way but that type of stuff. It gives me way more hope than what's happening politically there's this, especially YouTube what happens on the rational parts of YouTube gives me way more hope than what's happening in politics and, you know, there are pockets out there and again to throw back to this history. One of the things that I kept going over with the students to take from this history as a as a guide as a lesson is, you know, this gives you a lot of a lot of food for how to collaborate how to change the world I mean, I didn't get a chance to, you know, because I messed up my talking notes here, but you know, a lot of big part of this is is how much these people were, you know, they were in most places one percent of the population without the ability to vote, but we're able to command not only political, but social and economic power through their through these ideas through perseverance and able to change minds. And I think, of course, in some ways, convincing people of objectivism is harder than no convincing people to enslave everybody in other aspects is either way it's an uphill battle but it's so possible, and studying this history kind of gives you a lot of rubric how to do it. And it's, it's, there's a lot of optimism that we had, you know, and go check out Iran speech on rational optimism. Right. So let's try to make. Not that you're going long but let's try to make a short of answers because we got you. We're probably an hour 45 in and we've got a ton of questions still. All right, Jennifer asks, how did. How do you think the construction would have been different. If Lincoln had not been assassinated. This is this is always a hard one. Well, I'll say. Well, partly one of the problems in kind of doing the what if is because we do not know. He never came out explicitly for repeal of black laws. He saw a lot of examples of him getting his mind changed and coming more on to the side but he was Lincoln was very much on that side of not wanting to agitate. Not just the South but the political scene with federal overstepping and, you know, and that ties into the whole I get angry when people talk about Lincoln as a tyrant because how is he a tyrant when he's so he's so worried about overstepping his federal bounds and it held him back much. But, you know, I think we would have gotten at least more pressure on the south to to to not put in, you know, a lot of a lot of the they wouldn't have gotten off so easy I think I think a lot of southerners who ended up taking political positions wouldn't have gotten off so easy and more on the social level I think the momentum wouldn't have been the wind wouldn't have been taken out of the sales of, you know, the north northern side. Mike says good discussion and ideas and principles thanks Mike Vadim says, Why do rappers use the n word in their songs I asked this once and the reply I got was I wouldn't understand. Thank you. The quick answer is because it's seen as, you know, it's seen as a like we can and you can't type of thing and it's it's seen as a slang. There's the old we reclaim the word and that might be whether you can understand thing. It's, it's a we reclaim the word it's a, and, you know, it may not. It's not a term of endearment coming out of your mouth but you know and it's part it's part of the culture is usually it's part of the culture it's part of, you know, you think they will think that they they have this attitude. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's essentially a tribal attitude it's a simple it's it's pretty much part of it's, you know, if it's part of the collective is same same way and it even breaks down as the classic example of it breaking down like I'm from New York, Brooklyn, New York, where if you grew up with a bunch of Puerto Rican and Spanish kids who grew up near us say it, you know, and it's, they don't have a problem with them saying it's breaking down and some kid from Manhattan saying and that's, you know, that's a big age some white kid from Manhattan saying that's a big issue. So it's, you know, yeah. But don't say it. Just don't say it. Don't say it. I first learned of Mr. Ibis when rocker interviewed him and two other gentlemen from a from ARC UK. He called rocker sir, maybe the first time rocker's ever been called so the tiktok objective is so right. I would have called you sir you're on but you you are adamant about me calling you you're on. All right, helper, helper says I must. I'm a many respect I'm a social egalitarian. I think some people would not like that but I don't dress. I don't dress my parts and I don't like being called doctor so anything. Help us asks, is I know in the black community. That's question one and the second question is do you feel racism has held you back in your life or career. Um, no, she's not. I've any, any person that usually any black person I find that knows of Iran is more on the left side and they have heard the nonsense, but funny instance. My uncle actually has read Iran read Iran's book when she he was younger. So yeah, it's she has influence she has spread. And you know there's there's there were out here were individuals and some of us some of us seek it out and it happens and I think it'll, it'll spread more hopefully I can, you know have an impact on that. Secondly, no, not not even in the slightest I've had instances you know experiences with racism but it's never held me back and I've always even before objectivism which is why I think I'd be like I was down with objectivism almost immediately is because I've been an individualist at heart since forever I've been a selfish individualist forever it just it never it never. You experienced racism you wouldn't you didn't let it get to you apps absolutely not it just, if it was your I was always had the attitude it's your loss you're crazy, especially, especially in the classic examples at the workplace I'm, I've been working since I come from a West Indian background. If you're if you're going to have preconceived notions about me because of my race, you're crazy because I'm nine times out of the 10 I'm the best worker. You've got coming through the building. So, your loss. Great answer. Mr. What, what got you interested in Montessori. Oh, well, that's an easy one. Actually, well, it will part of it was just the ideas of I actually ended up, you know, going through all the objectives videos I ended up reaching, you know, some Matt Bateman videos and hearing I ran talk about it, but then you know, Greg saw me area ended up connecting me with higher ground for a diversity project. And because of that, you know, as you guys can see once I find out about something I dive in deep and I found Montessori just a fascinating woman and just, you know, just an incredible and I've always been interested in Oh, so here's the biggest thing I'll quickly. I was one of those students who got stunted I got, you know, it had so much passion so much potential and it got stunted so finding out about someone like that was amazing Oh, and I've always been a Marvel Collins fan as well so it just connected to powerful educators. Collins was amazing. Yeah. All right. Apollo Zeus asks the great migration was 1910 to 1970. What happened before 1870 before 1910 to lead to that I think we talked about that a little bit but why. What was the instigation for the great migration. Well, on the kind of political social side was the rise of so the uptick in racism, they started to feel more comfortable and then you know towards the 1910s it really hits this, this peak of like yeah we're, we're way away from reconstruction right now no one's trying to force us to be equal under the law so they just, you know Jim Crow went, you know, full full in on it and by the way, most people don't know Jim Crow didn't even involve much, you know, racially explicit laws they were pretty racially neutral on the face of it but they racism was they just felt comfortable they felt bolstered and it's the cultural aspects of racism are just interesting but it's just it's just that rise in police is not enforcing the law when it comes to whites killing blacks and, and I mean, people should go see the movie tell, I know if you still tell, I thought it was very, very well done. And it gives you that sense of how screwed up the system is even though theoretically the laws on the books against murder but when you won't convict a white guy for killing somebody who's black then the laws are meaningless. And like we talked about there was a lot of collectivist elements, other where otherwise coming in as well so I mean collectivism, tribalism are just a recipe for its lowest form, which is racism, it's, you know, it's a recipe for disaster that which the movies till TIL, it's about Emmett Till's, it's about Emmett Till but really about his mother and, and what happens around his murder. And for some good background on Emmett Till story you should check out TRM Howard who was a big civil rights hero. Very good guy and he was one of the major advocates and pushers to solve will get something done about that case. And he's another one of my civil rights heroes. So James G asks, what happened to black Wall Street after the collapse. Um, so I always answer this question first by pointing out there was a few black Wall Streets. You know, I don't know about collapse wouldn't be the word I mean they kind of got wouldn't use the word collapse, it got destroyed. But I get that I take the note of the question is kind of like why didn't it get rebuilt. And I mean, it's, it's a little bit hard to say but because a lot of the ideological stuff, a lot of ideas behind the people the individuals behind the black Wall Street, they just weren't around anymore. And the ideological culture shifted. One of the guys who founded black Wall Street is a gentleman named Charles Spaulding. I've done some research into me, you know these were these were in industrious to use book of teas like these were industrious productive individuals and their like was going out of style so once something like that happens and there's no one to pick up those pieces, you know, who's who's starting insurance companies like they that's that's how black Wall Street kind of got it was an insurance company that he started that then funded a lot of the other stuff like who's doing that anymore. It's just not happening in the community. Okay buses how do we fix public housing and rent control in New York City. Fix it you have to get rid of it and have to get rid of it. You abolish it. You abolish it. But on I guess, the only other answer you could give is like, kind of Thomas soul points out it wasn't always that bad. Again, the people the thought process of the people who were inhabiting it were of a different generation, right public housing wasn't always a terrible place, but when the I when the philosophy the good philosophy has been completely sucked out of the environment. There's nothing left to grab on. Yeah, and I blame the welfare state for most of that I think public housing, the decline in public housing is a consequence of the welfare state rent control is always bad there's never a good, a good part of. Greg wrote a comment and then he, he, he Greg the famous Greg wrote a comment and then he deleted it so before I get a chance to read it. Maybe he'll write it again there was a typo there I did catch that. Let's see boss says good stuff consider open your own YouTube channel yeah he said he's going to. We have one has like 3000 subscribers on it so yeah, we have a great Oh, maybe I'll have a great interview. It's a poor you, we have a poor you YouTube channel. Okay, there's a great interview with see Bradley Thompson on there. There you go clip from my Larry I've been on Larry elder show there's a clip on there. Yes. Yes, so yeah, then we have some some content on there as well and we intend to produce more. All right, so it already exists go go subscribe. Shahzad says has MLK's I have a dream speech become unpopular among today's critical race theory activists. Now, I think I think a lot of that stuff has just become, you know, it's like it's empty words it's words that you you use to make a point a lot of a lot of his things he said has just became, you know, battering rams for people but I don't think people really dive deep into, you know, I don't think they engage with MLK. I'm committed I committed that I didn't even say my big MLK quote that I have there that most people don't hear should I say it now because it's going. So here's an MLK quote that most people don't know. The two dominant and contradictory strains in the American psyche, the positive one, our democratic heritage was the later development on the American continent. Democracy born in the 18th century took from John Locke of England the theory of natural rights and the dust justification of revolution and imbued it with the ideal of a society governed by the people. And the person wrote the Declaration of Independence the first government of the world to be based on these principles was established on American soil, based on a contemporary description of Benjamin Franklin might have described a new nation. He has torn lightning from the sky. Soon he will turn air the septum, the scepters from the kings and Thomas pain in this enthusiasm declared we have the power to begin the world over again. I just thought, you know, I never knew. I always quote that because, you know, MLK touching on all those different founders, you know, all those great people is there from this is this anniversary of Lincoln's that's not even in a speech that's from the where do we go from here book, you know, which is why there's a great speech of MLK is we talks about the importance of the Declaration of Independence and why the Declaration of Independence is the fundamental document underlying them. So he, he had some really good stuff, even though he had a streak of socialism or welfare is in him, he had a he had a really some really good, good content. I think he was like really the last of the intellectual civil rights heroes. All right, let's see. A lot of people gave money without asking a question so thank you to all of you guys I don't have time to scroll back and find you all but thank you thank you Joseph just came in okay we've got like six more questions. Gail says so happy to hear you. Yes, we need to have your historical experiences of neutralizing people by building a bridge. She liked that. That's great. Jean says love watching your debates. Thanks. Yeah, yes. Thank you for attending. Thanks says operations against the southern states valid. I don't, I don't think so. Not at all really. I'm, it's just another form of, you know, holding a collective, especially in the past holding a collective group for the sins of their collective. The southern states are not some person out there. The southern states were ruled by individuals that aren't alive anymore and you know there's different individuals who aren't that creative politics right now running them but you know this. And those reparations won't help anybody what we need is individualist path forward. And so, Greg says, also we regarding rebuilding black Wall Street he says also it would have been especially hard to do in a context where it had been demonstrated that the police wouldn't protect it from violence. Exactly in a state of anarchy or a state of threat like that. What are you going to rebuild. Yeah, most people don't know this that they were defending they were getting prepared to defend that they were defending themselves at block Wall Street and they alerted the officials but you know nobody came and you know nothing happened so. Yeah, those of you don't know about the story of black Wall Street. Look it up. It's it's doc doc doc story of American history. Okay Joseph does have a question he just hit it. So let's see if I can fight there it is. What are your thoughts on Coleman Hughes, particularly his work on racism, but also his wider cultural views I've heard him dismiss Ayn Rand. I've now I'm a big fan of Coleman. He's one of the people I have a gripe with who I say he took my job. He has my position on YouTube but more, more kudos to him he does he does great work on that issue I just, of course as with most people coming me coming from an objective perspective I just sometimes I don't think he goes to the fundamental issue enough, I don't think he hits completely in the thread of individualism and having a broader and then having a view that, you know, bronze and applies to all of like you see indicated all of his culture views and integrate with most of his views I think he has some shortcomings in the aspect, but you know, and that takes away from some of his commentary on certain things, but I mean, given the field out there he's definitely one of the better people him and. Oh my God why is he slipping my mind right now. The race abolitionist I've met him. I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's certainly slipping my mind so but then everybody's name sorts my mind. While you look that up. Are you familiar with Darryl Davis, the black musician who converts Ku Klux Klan members very cool story. Yes, I'm familiar with Darryl Davis I have some qualms about if I would spend my time on such an endeavor but yeah it is, it is a very cool story. And I'm familiar with this story. And it's, I guess, it's a testament to how I guess when you present some, some people just need to be met with some type of rational thought, but Darryl Davis I know I think has some other thoughts that again same kind of thing. Don't integrate into a he's a mixed bag. Yeah. Camille Foster, I'm sorry Camille Foster was the name I was thinking about Camille Foster great guy, you should check him out. Good. John Jeffers says, thank you for such a cogent summary of portions of American history. Many of us do not know enough about on a separate topic any recommendations for new parents on specific books to read about Montessori education. I would read Maria Montessori books. She I mean the fabulous the easy reads they're not hard. I remember when when I was going to have kids I picked up all of her books and just read them, and they're fantastic any, any other recommendations. I recommend actually maybe not a book but get get plugged into wherever you can find what Matt Bateman is putting out. He's always giving more information on where you can find interesting thing and giving interesting commentary on stuff and giving great ideas on parenting and on those aspects and I, I'm pretty sure higher ground also has some resources that would be of help to you as well. If you just, you know, look them up. Yeah, look them up that they probably have some resources regarding Montessori for you to find. All right, let's see. Ryan says awesome guests and show thank you both thanks Ryan. And then Ryan says goal accomplished right right we did we blew through the goal. Excellent. I don't think we made it quite up to Alex FC and level but then you know it's it's those giant giant peaks to get to Greg says for new parents Montessori from the start is also useful. Montessori from the start is a is the name of the book that Greg Salamieri recommends on this topic. I don't know if Greg has been commenting throughout a discussion I've only noticed him in the last few minutes so but he is is there. Thank you I miss this has been fantastic. I've learned a lot. That's that is that is really exciting and the beauty of it is, there's a lot more content there I know. Yes, and I'm looking forward to seeing your YouTube I'm looking forward to reading the undercurrent but ultimately I'm looking forward to the book and to the competition. Yes, man. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You know thank you to you. Thank you for the influence you've had on my journey and thank you to everybody at iron ran Institute I know they sponsor the show so thank you to them thank you to the iron ran university and, you know, shout out to everybody watching from tick tock and Instagram all all my internet support groups. You know we made it guys we made it made it to the Iran Brook show. There you go. Now you got it now you got to climb the next mountain. Thanks guys thanks all those super chat is you guys were very generous today really really appreciate it. I will be back tomorrow morning. We'll have a short tomorrow morning we'll have a show on Saturday at 3pm. We are doing a members only show a Sunday, and then Monday will do a show in the morning and in the evening because in Tuesday. I fly to Medellin. Now I never thought I'd ever say that that I'm going to Medellin because I go up in a period where Medellin was the drug capital of the world and very violent and very dangerous but supposedly it's calm down and it's peaceful and it's very nice. That's what they tell me if I find something different when I get that I'll let you guys know, but I'm going on a two and a half week trip to South America so I, but I will see you guys tomorrow morning. Thank you. I miss Isaiah. I look forward to what to see you on all these other platforms I'll see you don't come. Yes, sir. Make sure I get there. Excellent good. Thanks guys have a great night everybody it's getting late over here. Bye and good night. Thank you.