 Felly, rym ni wedi y tifod i chi'n gweld y cesennu bwysig o gyda Tyweabysgir, a dyfododd wedi gweld dw'i wedi wneud yw cysylltiad pethau chi fel y maen nhw ddweud yn y gynnig. Pyddecydd y trefyn, rydyn ni'n fwrdd, sy'n ddrupal ysgwyl yn cynneud gorau yr antwerth. Dhwyddi'r cyfweld i gael hynny, roedden nhw'n fforddi'n cael ei ddweudol i ddigwydd ar fynd, ddim yn amsrwynt i ddrupal ysgwyl. Ac bydd yn siwr o'r cyfnodd o'ch cyfnodd yn unedig yn yr unigolant o'r honnod. Feisio'r gweld, cwm yw ymwneud i'ch eu gweithio, rwy'n cyddoedd y linew i'r bobl. Felly ar gyfer. Yn Deithas son, ac mae'r gwirionedd i broadfamydd o'rylio Newyddol Cymru yn yr ysb �眾 gyda'u ar y benedig. Mae'r cyfnodd yn siwr o ffalu ac yn y Gymraeg. Fydd gallwn i'r cyfnodd yn chweithio mewn arddangon, ond mae'r arwt o rhaid o'n gynnwys i ddweud o'r cyfraith phoeul, ond os ymdweud cyfan CBRM yn ei chael panweithio'r cyntaf. Mae'r drewpwl, beth sy'n fawr yn eich cyfraith sy'n gwybod. Ryn yn ei wneud roedd unrhyw y coleg o'r New Zealandane. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'r gwir i'r eich llreith, a Croesbergur arweig o'r beth ac eich gwir i'r rhai oedd eich gwir, ond rwy'n gweithio i'r bwysig i'r eich cwestiynau y gwaith yw'n gweld yn ffoswell. Felly, ystafell y bwysig y gallwn i'w ddweud yma, mae'n rhaid yn cymdeithasol. Mae CVCRM yn ddweud y cyfnodol, a'r cyfnodol yn gyflei. Mae'n cyfnodol CMS, mae'n ddweud yn cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt, o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt, ac mae'n cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt o'r cyflwynt, y cenderdwyd wedi'u cyfan gweithio yn 2004. Mae'r ystod ymlaen iawn yn cerdd ymlaen i'r gymunydd cyfnod. Cyfnod cyfnod o'r ystod gan ymlaen yn y US. A mae'r defnyddio y cerddwyd, ymlaen i ymlaen i ymddangos cyfnod, ac yn ymlaen i ymddangos cyfnod, mae'r ymlaen i'r gymunod yw'r cyfnod cael ymlaen i'r cyfnod cyfnod cyfnod ac yn ymlaen i'r gweithio, is such as Fusion who contributes back to the project, in many ways, including financially, and with code and support on the forums and so on. So who runs it, pretty much the same as Drupal? And in a way I think I kind of want to emphasise that CiviCRM as a contact management system, is kind of like the twin for Drupal. So in many ways Drupal can be yn ymgyrchol sylwyd. Nid yw'n gweithio, i ffordd, ydy'r cyffredig sylwyd yn dylunu'n gweithio'r cyffredig sylwyd. Yn cyfwyr yn cyfwyr, drwfal yn dweud yn gwneud o'r cympall cymryd yn cyfwyr. Felly mae'n ddweud fathio gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Yn gwaith yw'r cyfrif yn ychydig sy'n gweithio, ond hefyd mae'n oeddech chi'n gwybod yma. Felly mae'n gweithio ym 10,000 oes ymgylchydd yn gweithio'n gweithio, but these are actually real ping-backs of sites that are out there, that are live sites. So figure out all the development sites and the downloads and all the others. These are numbers that we know are absolutely out there being used through the websites. 150 million contacts, 75 million donations, 15 million event registrations from those sites. Staling. Civii can be obviously works fine with small systems with the right hosting. There are systems out there with a million plus contacts, probably more by now. I don't know, I've heard bigger numbers than that, but there was some of the sectors that are using Civii both in terms of the clients we work with but also elsewhere, political parties, social activism organisations. You can see the list down there. Institutions, museums, net nz over in New Zealand. Magazines, oh, we're getting there, yes, the monthly, John Derry is here and they have been using Drupal and they dived into using Civi for their magazine subscription system. Wikimedia foundation, we kind of float around because they're probably the biggest organisation sucking in funds using a slightly tweaked Civi installation. Australian Green Party over here, very large user, New York State Senate over in the US providing the services for all of the senators and their communications and engagements with the constituents and a few other names there including professional organisations and activism organisations. Luna Park. Luna Park, oh, there we go. Is there a foundation? Is there a foundation? Yes, FSF, that's interesting, and EFS, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and yeah, we were just being trying to communicate with FSF because we spotted something that we thought they needed to know about. So within Civi, slightly more so than Drupal, it really comes with most of what will be used in the box. So you download Civi, fire it up and you will have contact management system, membership management, contributions, events, all of these will be there without needing to actually go in and even turn on some of the other components. These components are there ready for you. Contacts, obviously, we don't want to treat all contacts as the same type, so you have individuals, organisations, households, within individuals, you can then fork and go, well, we want some subcontact types, for example students versus staff, and at that point you can then start putting custom fields that are specific to students such as what year they're in or what their topics are compared to staff qualifications. So this is all around really, as with putting custom fields on content types in Drupal, it's about decluttering your system so that you're only using the fields that you want and the places that you want to use them. What happens between contacts? Well, obviously we need to do a lot of engagement between the contacts, so relationships, they come with some, the system comes pre-built with some, you can fire in others very simply through the UI, so obviously you've got parent of, employee of, you can add other ones like branch, officer for, and within those relationships we can do permissioning between the relationships, so for example the parents may be permissioned over their children so they can access their, some of their data and update it, or in more complex cases a school teacher may have access to only their students and another school teacher will have access to only their students, that type of permissioning. Relationships also give us start and end date history dates, therefore we can look at a history of a person's engagement within an organisation, so there might have been a branch secretary 20 years ago and then a treasurer, president, whatever, and for some organisations that history is really important to keep. So what does CV look like when it's connected and why didn't these all connect when we rebooted? So just simple, the initial interface for a contact you're looking at obviously a number of tabs running across, so we're in the summary screen here, we have some direct editing in here much as we're going to get with Drupal 8, so if for example Pete left Fusion and decided to go and work for another organisation like the baddies, and the baddies aren't in the system then it's going to create that organisation and build a relationship between those two contacts straight away. You've got tabs for the contribution records, the membership records, the participant records for that contact. Relationships as I've been discussing, so if we go here you'll now see that I'm, in this case we've overrished an employee to be contact person for, so I've now the contact person for the baddies as opposed to my history having been with Fusion. Obviously keeping your contacts as clean as possible is really important and with a system where you're putting out profiles or forms out through the web where you want people to be putting in their information, you want as flexible an approach as you can have to ensuring that if you're matching a contact you're updating their details, you're not overwriting somebody else's and on the other hand that if Pete Davis with the same email signs up and Peter Davis with the same email was already in there then you've got either a chance to match on the fly as that data comes into your system and if not then you can run the duplicate rules based on for example the first three or four letters in the first name plus the last name to find possible matches and then merge those two contacts whereby all of the information that you want from the one you're going to put in trash gets transferred over onto the remaining contact so that will include their relationships, the payment contributions, events, whatever. Looking quickly through this really is a very speedy fly-through of what SIBI can do. If you imagine somebody trying to do a talk on what Drupal can do in 45 minutes I hope you'll appreciate why I'm bolting through this and the fact that I speak fast most of the time. Membership types, obviously different clients will need different systems, fixed versus rolling one year versus multiple years or lifetimes, whether or not a membership should be inheritable so if a company purchase the membership should the employees inherit a membership so that you can then use the fact that the characteristic that they're a member in SIBI to then give them access to member restricted content in Drupal because you know this is really about how we can benefit from having the contact management system wired in closely with the content management system. A whole bunch of membership statuses that you have control over setting so how long do you want to consider a member to be a new member versus how long do you want to give them after their end date whilst you still give them membership services before you you finally say hey look enough you're not going to have our magazine any longer if you if you don't pay up. Price sets which are what then go on to the public facing forms can be very simple that you just have your radio buttons for the membership type you're choosing or you can build much more complex price sets where you can purchase the membership and you can pay extra if you want the magazine newsletter posted to you or because you are overseas as well as making a donation or possibly choosing whether you want to give your donation to this fund or to a separate project. Scheduled reminders are built throughout the system so in terms of memberships you'd be we would be setting up scheduled reminders so that for example an hour after they join they get a welcome message if we haven't done it directly off the off the join process renewal notices goes out two weeks before they end and then a couple of weeks after you want to kind of hit them up with a with another reminder. Obviously for many memberships you they you can have free memberships but you'd also be charging money in which case to be able to accept funds online you need to have an engagement with a payment processor and with that you then get the user being offered the choice between pay later via check or bank transfer whatever it might be offline or a credit card where obviously you civvy isn't taking and storing the credit card information it's putting all that into the hands of the UAE or PayPal. PayPal swipes your money sends the information back to civv and gives the contribution either you know a thumbs up thumbs down as to whether it's complete or not. We use e-way for most of our Australian clients it's it's been good to work with in terms of the code and where are we at with recurring recurring recurring's available now with with e-way. Events obviously similarly they can be free or they can be paid when you set them up you can put in as much information that you want on the information page about where it is generator map of it who are the contact people to talk to if the event's full is there going to be a wait list do you want to be able to register multiple people and so on and again with scheduled reminders you know hey this event's coming up in a week please remember to turn up thanks for attending or you know sorry that you didn't make it maybe here's the details about the next event. Communications obviously pretty strongly at the heart of any organisation is kind of why we ended up working with CBCRM because we were trying to provide communication strategies to organisations and finding that there wasn't much point developing really really complex and structured communication strategies if they didn't have a technology that could deliver it we looked around for the technology we found CBCRM and it's kind of been a love hate relationship for the last six or seven years. So mailings can go through a bulk mailing very much like MailChimp or campaign monitor the reports that come back include click through the bounces the unsubscribes if you just need to fire off a quick email more like a bcc then CBCRM will allow you to do that without going through the multi-step process of setting up the bulk mailing while still giving you access to the templates that you would be using for that and I don't know how clear the I don't know why some of these are light grey I added those after I'd fired in the slides obviously you've got tokens available to you dear John your student membership so John you know first name is a token type of membership is a token end date of the membership is a token the cost of the membership is a token and the emails that get sent out we generally recommend and remind clients to use a checksum which is a special link so that when the person receiving the email clicks on that link they'll go through to the membership form and it's prefilled so you're not so again that's helping avoid duplicated contacts coming into your database and to avoid the issue of but what happens if the email goes to John and Mary's home pc and they both open the inbox we tend to get around that simply by going you know if you're renewing for John nice big button John click here which will take them with the checksum link back to the form you know if you're renewing for somebody else click here and it won't use the checksum and they'll end up with a blank form so you don't avoid overwriting data SMS integration inbound emails and outlook integration are all possible but I won't spend any time going further on that activities are very much at the heart of CV but kind of often get overlooked by new users of CV because they don't understand what it's possible what they're possible what their possibilities are they come with a bunch of activities that you can use uh quickly so let's just zip over to my the muscle over here so if we zip over to my record I can click on the actions and I can send an email set up a meeting assign that to somebody else so they then get a scheduled reminder saying hey you've got a meeting with son so um fill out you know and we can then create custom activities again with custom fields as required so that we can gather more specific information such as for one of our clients which I'll show later we create we're capturing election results across parties across a whole lot of countries we're importing that as a csv in as an activity that's then getting added to the contact record and we can then mine that data later to generate maps do charts do um tie it in with Drupal content and such like um I think I can probably you can you can skim read most of that scheduled reminders can be added on to the activities so that if something's coming up and is then overlooked not only will that person get notified then but two weeks later on they can get another notification saying you know pull finger and get that job done if you need a more complex structured workflow where you have well we need this activity say for a grant application you need you know what's the deadline for the grant application who's the manager of the process what you know who's getting the quality drafts to um sign off on and so on and so on you can do that to some extent with activities directly but civi cases are like another dimension of being able to construct through xml's a whole bunch of pre activities and relationships that will fire in as soon as you create the case for a client and therefore um and that those activities can be anchored off another activity so three weeks after this one's done this needs to be done three weeks later something else needs to be done um it was developed mostly for the health sector in canada we've used it for educational institutes in in nz and um and i'll pass because i can't quickly think of the other ones we've done it for um campaigns so campaigns is really another concept running throughout everything that we've just talked about because obviously if you're running a campaign to get rid of some prime minister you're not very keen on or raise funds for for some project every event every contribution page every mailing that goes out you can record as being part of this overall campaign so that you can then report back against those features against that that project uh searching search advanced advanced search then brings in every possible component that you're wanting to search within the address fields all of the custom fields that you've gen that you've created um relationships memberships and so on so you can build up very complex queries and then if you know that you want to keep using that query you effectively save it by creating a smart group so the smart group are all the people who are under 15 and obviously as the kids get out of that then they fall out of the smart group and other kids will come into it um reports lot of report functionality comes default with civvy you get templates where you can then customize them further yourself um and beyond that you can you can actually build custom reports as well the reports are available as dashlets that a person can have on their dashboard so configure your dashboard i can drag in the activities or whatever dashlets have been um generated out of the reports and then you'll get to see the um uh those whenever you log in uh civvy visualize i can't i couldn't find a way to give you some uh anonymized data so i've just gone for screenshots so i can't actually show you the the beautiful dynamic hey look what happens when you click on here and all the data shuffles around so left hand is obviously showing the contributions uh with all the days of the week and then in the second screenshot i've clicked on monday and that's filtered down and just showing you the contributions not a brilliant example but i think you can take that concept away um civvy visualize there are some other components i've mentioned case management uh grant management civvy volunteer and civvy hr which are all um not core components but that you can bring into civvy and and extend your put this that extend the uh the features data wrangling obviously it's really important about getting data in and out of the system um migration we've thanks to ireland's work we've really uh settled on using the droople migrate module to basically suck contacts out of other data systems and pull them into into civvy um for the same reason that one uses the migrate module for doing for content you can pull it in check your mappings drop the data pull it in again until you get it right uh civvy also gives you a bunch of import wizards for importing from csv's for your contacts and participants and such like getting the data out similarly once you've found your target audience you then get the export features to export the memberships all the contacts uh or whatever it is that you're searching for um and within civvy if you need to go through and do but batch updates uh then there are you can create a profile with the fields you need find your target audience click through and you'll end up with all of those 50 records sitting there and if you realise that you hadn't added the country to those addresses and that you needed to add Australia into them then you just put Australia into the top one click photo copy and it drops it down into all of the other field as well so good way for doing quick data cleanup and just to finish with the civvy side of the equation um so what happens in the community much like with drupal there are a lot of extensions which you can think of as contra modules some of them are drupal specific or other cms specific um others of them are agnostic there's a very very active forum um but we're actually really trying hard to shift some of the stuff that goes on in the forum over to stack exchange so please if any of you are interested in helping civvy get a stack exchange for those of you who know stack exchange we were 93% and i'll probably buy a beer for anyone who does that whilst they're here if it helps us tip over to the um to the 100% that would be awesome seven people who've got two seven people with 200 credits of other stack exchange for anyone who's familiar with stack exchange that makes sense if you're not but you want to get interested it doesn't take long to build up your um your profile whatever it's called your your worth and use that um civvy obviously has its own IRC um training videos are provided by certain partners and some of them are pay for some of them are free uh and there's a a big community effort goes into book sprint so there's a very large comprehensive uh training manual the floss manual that is available either free off the internet or you can pay your seven bucks and having have it printed and delivered to you hardbound so swinging over to Drupal how does this all help when we're actually living in the land of Drupal um i don't need to keep looking at users so obviously a user will have a civvy record but not vice versa you can have a whole lot of people in civvy who never have Drupal users um on each of the you can set up civvy profiles to show on the user pages so if you're already using profile Drupal profiles replace that you put in the civvy profiles to do exactly the same same job um i think that just skipped a couple of things above which is that um um which is that there's integration between or maybe the slide down i'll save it there's integration between various characteristics in civvy such as what is your membership status which i mentioned earlier or which group are you in which will then tie into what role you get in Drupal which therefore determines what you can do and or see in Drupal um content there's civvy contact reference field and there's also i'll come to later to the entity um that allows us to effectively set up node references a reference between a node and a civvy contact and that way we can start pulling together content that pertains to that um entity and civvy data that pertains to that entity so i'll just flick over to an example is a she wrote it because you only wrote most of it yeah um so yeah yeah so i'll write the module other people and go wow we can do this this and this with it um so here's an example from one of our not very recent sites this is european green so we look after a whole lot of different green parties so both in Drupal and civvy we've got a contact yes we've got a contact in civvy for the gpew this way we have a node linked together and therefore um the contact information here is coming out of civvy party leaders coming out of civvy the election results national and european are coming out of civvy meet the greens all of these caroline and all those details that's all coming out of civvy um but the news about this party and news about this country which is pertaining to the party is all Drupal stuff so that allows us to really begin to put together a nice little package of of um of information which we enjoy doing um that was actually a node with a whole that was that was a node with a whole lot of view blocks dotted around that are all running off various uh contextual filters and and whatnot um how does how does Drupal treat civvy in terms of themes well civvy's sitting there and it's visible to you because of the Drupal themes uh you can have different themes running for the back end we usually work with uh with garland or something like that the public theme uh will be entirely whatever you want it to be so usually your default public theme webforms boy we have some fun with webforms so the webform civvy crm integration module was written by this wizard guy called Coleman in the US who now works for the core team thank heavens which allows us to do stuff in Drupal that we can't even do in civvy with regard to civvy data which is just awesome it allows us to have a single form where you can create the mother and the children and the teachers of the children and relationships and firing activities and event records and membership records all off a single form with all the capabilities that webform and webform layout and webform conditional and webform validation modules or or features all allow us to do so we really begin to get excited about um what we can do with webform i mean thank god Coleman came along I say um and I think I've got a quick example I'm just trying to keep an eye on the clock we're finishing at 5 30 yeah uh and I need to leave you some space for questions so let's close off that uh gosh what oh let's sort of get these okay so here's a webform um I'll find an angle of it so you'll see that the basically this is all your webform tabs but we've got a civvy crm tab sitting over here and if you look in there you'll see that we've enabled civvy processing we're firing up three contacts off this we're creating the organisation we're creating an individual we're creating in our case the sites that we manage um not not the sites themselves but a record of the sites um off here and so if we go back to look at this you will uh see that if if this is an existing contact in the record then it'll find it but if it doesn't exist then it'll allow us to create a new one if we so choose you don't have to have it that way it can be all entirely anonymised but if you give permission um for those records so and all the rest of this these are all just custom fields sitting in civvy um so over here in civvy we in that on this tab we will find uh so for example here are all the fields sitting in a field group that have come in from civvy and we can just go select all and fire them they will then go into a blank web form create all the components in the web form and you can then jump into those components and do all sorts of nice things like deciding that you didn't want checkboxes you really wanted radio buttons or you didn't want to show all the countries you only want to show a limited selection of countries and all that cold stuff so it gives you it just gives us much greater control over what we can do with civvy information coming in and being shown back out to the user than uh than we can do in civvy views again another place where we can suddenly start doing cold stuff that we can't do in civvy um obviously just generating simple listings of current members that you might want to show or who are your recent donors um uh eileen cooked up a token so that we can create a view in civvy for the content that we then want to put in a newsletter and fire out through the civvy mail bulk tool because the data is in views whatever views can do with data we can probably do so let's just jump over here and first off first off obviously if we're starting with a new view as with anything in in views you need to go what am I actually needing to build this view from where do I start uh so as you can see we we can start from civvy activities and then pull in the people connected to that or we can start with the people and pull in the activities or the memberships or so on and so on so you get the idea and that would then potentially generate so I'm showing off my clients but it was actually the first thing I could um grab as a as a as a list that I thought I could get away with showing so that's obviously just the table being spat out by um by views and then because we can use open layers the open layers we can generate a map that may take quite a while to load here um showing that so that that's civvy data I don't know who lives in the middle of Australia actually they're not a client so this uh let's find somebody so Asia Pacific green network sitting up there um oh sure yep yep I think they definitely need some entity stuff doing um charts oh again so you know charts yeah yeah charts I've lost my chart one um why have I lost my chart one never mind but obviously if you can use uh data vis or whatever the module is the the plug-ins of views then we can grab civvy data for example we do that with a an education client who survey all of their schools and then they want to give the schools back nice pretty charts so we actually collect the information in a web form that gets pushed into a civvy CRM activity the client then has access obviously only to their activities so when they get redirected to the views page they've got their pretty charts and they can hit print and they can take them all off there so um stacking relationships so this is the views concept of what a relationship is uh not a civvy relationship um though in this case this are these are relationships that are civvy relationships so we can start off with the president of the state that contains the regions that contains the branches that belongs to the you know and the thigh bone is connected to the knee bone and therefore build up really really nice complex um tables that they can look at at a glance and see how many members have renewed at each of the broken down levels and aggregate them using um views aggregation and stuff so that's that's nice oh there's the chart no wonder I couldn't say it so the chart was embedded in there um so again yeah as I said this is activities uh being being captured off a web form I've got five minutes I'm not going to talk a lot about entities and rules because I don't know a lot about entities and rules but Eileen knows an awful lot more than I do um commerce ubacart unfortunately I do know more about this um than I would care to because it's given us a lot of headaches over time and to get around those headaches we're moving more to building those with civvy entities and rules than actually using the the the modules for ubacart um civvy integration there are modules for both of those we've tried them we've got frustrated we've worked around it um organic groups I don't know if any of you use organic groups we've used them a lot for clients and we've done a little bit of extra customising so that for example we create a civvy event in civvy as soon as we create the event then it creates an organic group equated you know related to that and then as people sign up to the event they automatically get created as a Drupal user in that organic group and bingo you've got a little classroom discussion space where they can they can discuss classroom things um I spoke earlier about the migrate module as a way of getting legacy data in because don't underestimate if you if you're going to do some work with civvy crm don't underestimate the amount of work that is involved in the configurations of all of these beautiful little things just the way you need to think about a Drupal site but particularly the importing of clients have got legacy data double some numbers um because it's a big it can be a big long expensive job and it's best not to find that out halfway through um Eileen kind of pioneered using the migrate module to do this and thank heavens because it kind of means we've you know if we get a client coming back with a similar legacy data system then um we can we can cut a lot of time off and I mean this this isn't a session on working with clients but finding out that the person who actually manages the database wasn't aware of the change being thrust upon them is a sure sign of very heavy maintenance requirements further on um so migrate module cool Drupal 8 where are we at with Drupal 8 um Torrance who works for us occasionally and is becoming an astrophysicist in his in his non-spear time um got onto the G stop google summer of code last year and got Drupal Sivvy firing with Drupal 8 alpha Drupal 8 beta of course it's not firing now so we're we're just kind of looking for a bit of community support I'm not this is the pitch but it's a work in progress and we will absolutely have Sivvy firing before with Drupal 8 before Drupal 8 comes out and obviously we need to make sure that we've also got the web form stuff and the view stuff and all the other things that we love dearly about Drupal that I think is the last slide thank you very much but given that I've given you virtually no time for questions I'm really happy to stay here afterwards because it's drinks now and um or we can cluster in and have some drinks if you've got questions so uh if we're going to finish on time we've got a minute and a half for questions I believe does anyone want to take that time up tiny in the sense that what I say 10 000 installations and how many nonprofits are there in the world and I mean you know some of our clients aren't nonprofits they're you know institutions and stuff um what could it be I think it's huge we I mean we've looked at we got excited about Sivvy we got frustrated with Sivvy we got excited about Sivvy then we got frustrated with Sivvy so we looked at Red Hen then we got we went back to Sivvy and then we looked at CRM and then we went back to Red Hen and in the end because of particularly because of this beautiful weaving between Drupal and Sivvy we in most of our sane moments we go look this this has got a really long term future the fact that they've now started building it out for WordPress as well means there's a new wave of interest coming into Sivvy and so when people are making customisations as far as possible we get those contributed back into core code so they're agnostic so everybody benefits but obviously in some cases they have to be unique so you know WordPress or Joomla here you go yep by us yes um oh so so there are more Sivvy installations with Drupal than with Joomla or WordPress WordPress was the last kit off the block so Sivvy started with Drupal and Joomla Drupal was always picked the the stronger of the twins and I think once we got working with views and web forms and everything whenever a question comes up on the forums how they often do how do we do this you know too often we answer if you were using Drupal you could do this if you're using Joomla use Drupal I mean no sorry I didn't go to the session where it said we need to be nicer about and I'm not being un nice about Joomla in that sense Tom we do have we do support some clients with Joomla and WordPress but we just know that there's a whole lot that we can't do with them so another question oh sorry I mean I'll answer both ends of the spectrum as well perhaps one is one is that clients don't know what they want and they don't know what it can do and so our job is often kind of mind reading what they what they want to do and then setting up the fields or the activities or whatever and then going this and because it's really quick to set those up we kind of build very organically we go but how about this oh yeah but what about it says okay and so it's a very agile process but in terms of where are the pain points um smarty templates I mean getting down more to the code side um it's not very easy to control Civi when it's showing out through Drupal because Civi's using um smarty templates so it's kind of another language that we're having to deal with but a lot of this is being improved as the Civi upgrades and more of the perhaps Drupal and other influences come in I think that both both Drupal and Civi are moving towards the let's use the best of what's available libraries and so on and start to get rid of some of our individual nuances I'm really happy to keep answering questions if anyone wants to leave now don't feel that you're being rude by leaving