 Hello everyone, welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Tonight I'm chatting with the amazing Audrey Tang, who is also digital minister of Taiwan. Audrey, welcome. Hello, good local time everyone. What software that doesn't exist yet would be most helpful for coordinating future anti-authoritarian movements? Well, of course, a quantum-resistant cryptographic channel will really help that enable true secure conversation that once it's someone try to intercept it, you will know immediately. There are encrypted channels now such as WhatsApp. Do they not serve that function? If the makers of the software decide to eavesdrop themselves, then there's no physical property, only mathematical property that stops the conversation being eavesdropped. Now those, what we call the public key cryptography, mathematics, is at its very real danger of being broken within a decade or so, or two decades if you're optimistic by the quantum computer themselves. What kind of software do we need to make the democracy of the future work? Well, first of all, I think democracy is an ongoing process, so definitely something that makes the listening at scale work, that makes co-presence work, that enables people who are closest to the suffering, amplify their experiences and so that people with various different backgrounds can empathize with that experience. So, in short, software that enables listening and feeling at scale. And does virtual reality help in that regard, or does virtual reality give us experiences so intense that we become less empathetic to suffering? Because that VR vacation in Paris is just so amazing. That's right. So, only if it's shared reality though. I hear you talking about your amazing VR Paris vacation, but unless I can answer the same space and make it an extended reality that contains both of us, it would not become a social reality and just an individual reality. And that may of course have some therapeutic effects or overview effect. I'm not denying that, but I would say that this is pro-social but not necessarily democratic. Do you think at the margin people with virtual reality will be more interested in visiting the slums of Mumbai or going to Sun Moon Lake in Taiwan, which is very beautiful, of course. Well, why not do both? I mean, you can definitely take the Sun and Moon Lake and just in the Sun and Moon Lake have a conversation and watch together how it works in Mumbai. And vice versa. I mean, we just had an Asia Pacific social innovation partnership award and in a submit, we hear the designers in Singapore working for a app that enabled the foreign workers, the offshore workers from Philippines in, say, Taiwan to take care of their loved ones instead of sending cash home. They can do grocery shopping to make sure that their money is not spent on luxury goods and so on. So that's like three different countries and cultures right there. Let's say we had a service, a better version of AI, and anyone in the world could ask it any question in any language. It would mostly give pretty good answers. Would that increase empathy or lower it? Well, of course that depends on what you mean by pretty good. Does it make satisfying sounding answers? Does it make answers that seems real? Does it make mostly factual, but not empathetic answers? Does it make mostly empathetic but factually untrue? Answers, what does good enough mean to you? Say it's mostly factual answers. It's as good as a computer chess program, not perfect, but quite good relative to human knowledge. And anyone can ask anything like a supercharged Google plus a better functioning Siri with real answers. What do we do with that knowledge? Well, first of all, that's the value alignment part. What you're saying is that if more or less agree with the epistemic norms, that is to say the norm around knowledge that the society has, the other part to ask is about the accountability, like when it makes mistakes, who get to correct those mistakes? When it's biased, who get to participate in overcoming the bias? Is the source code, is the API, is the data that uses participatory or it is known to only a few? What's the innovation that would do the most to boost empathy? Definitely open innovation, that is to say innovation that is co-created to bring technology to people rather than asking people to adapt to technology. Do you think the United States today has more empathy than 20 years ago? I'm not sure that the States is a useful abstraction when you talk about empathy. Empathy are between human beings or at least animals. Do we have more empathy toward animals than 100 years ago? This is much more factory farming, right? There is much more factory farming, that's exactly right. On the other hand, of course, people understand how animals suffer more. And so that leads to more people understanding the animal welfare and animal right angles. It also leads to innovations such as the impossible burger, the future of meat and things like that. Maybe people eat it only because it actually tastes better and is free of the possible industrial farming side effects specifically on carbon emissions. But whatever reason you approach those new kinds of meat, I think they are superior in almost every regard than cost. And that part, the science are working on it too. What's your view of that old, I think Stalin quotation that one death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic? Could it be that the evolution of open source technology it directs our attention toward the whole and the telling of a single story becomes somewhat diminished and therefore we're less empathetic? Well, of course that between one and one million there's many, many zooming levels. I mean, if you look at an open street map but you can only zoom to the globe or zoom to an individual block in a city or even just to an individual level then that map is not very useful at all. What's useful is in the transitional zoom levels that makes sure that people can build the context in their head and connect their experiences with people who are slightly different but not at all that different. And that builds common values so that a transition between the zooming levels is much more important at one and a million level. Would it be better if smartphones did not have touch screens? I use of course stylus all the time and so the touch screens are useful when I don't have the stylus and keyboard Hansi as a kind of fallback but if the touch screen is the primary interaction button then of course it builds addiction. But say we could magically revert to the days of BlackBerry and somehow that would stick. Would society be better off, do you think? I'm sure that people will still invent a touch screen. But say we could avoid the touch screen, right? And we just stop at BlackBerry. Do we use social media in better ways? Or why do we jump to neural link directly from the BlackBerry then? It would take several decades at least, right? So we have 30, 40 years of BlackBerry and people are on social media less. Is that a better outcome? Do we have better discourse, more empathy? Well, that may be the case because in Taiwan the most popular Reddit equivalent is the PTT and it's still terminal based. It's like a late 90s version of the bulletin board system and we do see that it leads to better discourse qualities. How bullish are you on work from a distance? This is pandemic time, there's a lot of data. What do you think? Well, working from a distance does not mean that you don't meet people face to face. It only means that we transcend space boundaries when we're talking to each other. And so if it is something that you can opt in to then of course there are places and ways of work that improve the work quality. And I'm quite bullish on that, but it is the must and you have to work from a distance even for the kind of work that doesn't quite suit this working from distance and of course it's going to hurt the quality of work. But take the major tech companies, Apple where you've worked, Facebook, Google. So seven years from now when the pandemic is clearly over say in the United States how much of the current work from distance practices will persist? Or do you think it would all just have gone back to how it was in 2019? I've never been to Cupertino. So all my work with Apple for six years were telework. So I'm biased. I think it's pretty smooth. And if we don't like the tools that we're using for telework, we just make the tools better. And that's the main idea about innovation in that if people don't like the particular way that the tool is limiting our imaginations they can always improve on it. So yeah, I think again, this is not about excluding people from participating in the work. It's about expanding the idea of face-to-face meetings and the kind of empathy and above consensus that we can form and scale it to the more remote places. It's a, not a replacement. It is a augmentation to the face-to-face form. How should the United States handle the regulation of major Chinese tech companies, the service TikTok or say the service of WeChat? Should we allow major Chinese tech companies to own them? Well, take a systemic risk system approach do what the Taiwanese people did in 2014, which is people on the street, deliberate it with their own experience working with people who are from the PRC, coming to a consensus on the street that there's no pure private sector companies in the PRC and a party or the state really the same thing can just replace and swap leadership as they like through the party branches. So we decided eventually that making the infrastructure components in the PRC while their state subsidy looks quite lucrative, a MOTIS is actually a higher overall cost of ownership because you have to reassess for each upgrade whether the state have already taken over that so-called private vendor. So the US government should block TikTok or make sure it's sold to Oracle or Microsoft? Or what concretely would that mean? I'm saying that all of society deliberation, the style of the 2014 sunflower need to happen for the society to come to a common value about these sort of things. And this is what we call data norm. Do you think it is normal for facial recognitions and such data that you are just filming yourself singing and dancing to be aggregated to a single state and of which there's no jurisdictional accountability of using such data? If you think it's great as a country, well, more powers, but if you think it's not great as a country, then maybe you collectively can find something to do. Given your position on democracy, are you concerned about the de facto extra-territoriality of European privacy regulation that web services marketing to the EU have to meet GDPR, say? So there's not an actual democratic deliberation, but it's handed down by the European Union. Right, yeah, theoretically it's even extraterrestrial, right? So if there's European astronauts and so on, they're still regulated by the GDPR. So I think there's two things going on here. One is about the data norm and for the EU citizens, it extends by the framework of human right and therefore, of course, travels with the individual, not within the territorial jurisdiction. And the other view, of course, is based on the infrastructure where the data is collected, where the data used, under the name of data, localization, and even sovereignty. We have heard that word too when used on data borders. And so just like the example I mentioned of the Singaporean app with Filipino workers in Taiwan buying grocery for their families, it's by its very nature, three different overlapping jurisdictions and all have a governing interest in it. And so it's a reality and GDPR is part of that reality. Why is Finnegan's Wake your favorite book? Well, because it's very complex and complicated and I can enjoy it without understanding it, just treating it as lyrics like a notebook, literally a book of notes. Has it influenced your approach to tech at all? Yeah, I think so, because when I was 20 years old, I would wake up, log into the Pearl IRC channel, that's internet relay chat and type Riverrun, and then a bot will just paste a random paragraph, literally random paragraph from Finnegan's Wake, which would begin my day's work. And so that's social too, everybody in the channel sees it. And so I'm sure that it has influenced our work on Pearl, which is full with haiku and poetry and things like that. Have you written poems in Pearl? Oh yeah, of course. Are they good? I don't know, you can check thepugs.hs repository to see them. Now, your ideal of radical transparency and communications, do you think this is appropriate for all organizations and personality types or just something that's good for you? What's a personality type at all? People who are very balanced and moderate, I think can do better with radical transparency. People who say might have very high levels of testosterone. If they see and hear everything being said about them, they might go into a rage or overreact, right? Well, going into a rage may also be cathartic. It might be, but rages can be dangerous, right? Countries going into a rage, people going into a rage. I don't know, because outrage is the beginning of social movement. The thing is, where do you direct the outrage to? If it's directed to revenge, that is to say hurting imaginary or real people, or if it's directed to, I don't know, discrimination, which is lowering other people's social status without elevating one's own, of course those could be destructive, as you said, but it could also be directed into co-creation, that is to say make new institutions so that the old problems that provoke the rage in the first place do not happen again. And that's how democracy grows. And so I'm all for outrage, actually. What do you think of creative ambiguity of a way of postponing disputes? So the European Union often does this. They write a complicated document. It means something a bit different to each country. They don't agree, they don't have to agree. It's never radically transparent, but they revisit it seven or eight years later and do another tweak and just keep on moving down that road. Does that offend your sense of radical transparency? Well, these two are certainly orthogonal. I mean, I can imagine being radically transparent but deliberately moving in a very slow fashion and only act on the lowest of the lower hanging fruits. I can see merits and doubt too. I can also see, of course, this slow moving part being non radically transparent and then the main repercussion will probably be that people cease to feel that it's relevant to their lives and will not devote their energy to it. Given your own radical transparency, do you think people speak to you differently, always being aware that it's being recorded or transcribed or do you think they just forget about it and become their normal selves? Well, I think the better parts of themselves are shown much more visibly. That is to say, if they have an agenda that benefits the humankind or the planet or the cosmos, they're much more likely to share it because it's also performative. They understand that people from the future will see it. But the parts of themselves, I think for the next quarter only, linear individual growth or GDP growth at a cost or expense of future generations, that part doesn't seem to show. Now, Larry Wall once said that pearl is designed around laziness, hubris and impatience. Which of those qualities do you think most appeal to you? Laziness. Why? You don't seem lazy. You've done a tremendous amount. Uh-huh. Well, first of all, I've done a tremendous amount precisely because I designed the spaces for the people who care about things to make things happen. So certainly not me personally that have done those things. I just hold the space. And the second is that laziness also means that you do not over scare yourself, right? You evaluate, this is called lazy evaluation, evaluate the parameters, the input and so on as the situation causes it. And so that also enables a much more balanced work-life balance, I guess. What is a way the world could use the incentive of fun more productively? So use humor over rumor. What does that mean specifically? In Taiwan, whenever there's a trending even into an encrypted channels disinformation campaign, the people who voluntarily report that just like flagging email as spam, dedicated not to the government, certainly, but to the social sector with the crowdsourced fact-checking mechanism called COVID FACTS and also the Taiwan Fact-Check Center, Michael Penn and so on, part of the international fact-checking network. And so the trending rumors are met with fact-checkers almost immediately. And our ministries who has teams of participation officers who talk to hashtags like the Mr. of Health and Welfare's participation officer literally lives with this dog and so can meet the rumors within a couple hours and roll out very funny dog memes that just respond to this information. And so for example, this one is about Musk and this says, why do you wear a mask? Well, to protect yourself from your own and wash not say that's a very individualistic incentive or why do you observe social distancing? But you find it hard to measure. We're measuring in terms of dogs. When you're outdoor, two dogs away, indoor three, she bites and so on and so on. The idea is that before people goes to sleep, even if they see both the conspiracy theory, they also see this humor because it travels very quickly, go viral. And so by the time that they go to sleep and form long-term associations in their minds with the key words such as months or social distancing, they think of something fun. And that enable more pro-social behavior. Arguably contemporary Taiwanese culture is really quite gentle in a nice way. But say you were in one of the less liberal parts of Eastern Europe or the Balkans and the slogan was humor over rumor. Do you think it would work as well as it has in Taiwan? Well, we know that. It's would be nastier and less empathetic. Sure. We know that humor is not the same as sarcasm, for example, or as toxic attacks that makes fun of someone, right? Humor is makes fun of oneself or makes fun with someone, but it's never a kind of aggression. So when I say humor, I mean specifically humor and not any kind of comedic style. Of course, there are comedic styles that doesn't work and that will very quickly actually reinforce conspiracy theory thinking. How much of humor do you think is it someone else's expense? So say you watch Seinfeld. They're quite brutal to each other, right? Even though they're friends. I don't think there's humor, by the way. What is it? Well, it is, of course, comedic, right? It makes fun of people, but to me humor is makes fun with someone or makes fun of oneself. What is the future of blockchain in Taiwan? Well, it would just keep growing, I guess. But used for what purposes? What's the killer app for blockchain? 10 years from now, what will I be doing with it? What's the killer app for relational database again? Well, there are many kinds of relational databases. It's not clear that blockchain is the one emerging from markets as the preferred solution. Visa has databases, right? Those work well. It's a huge company. What's the competitor from blockchain? That's exactly right. So blockchain is just one implementation of broad swath of technology known as distributed ledgers or DLTs. And relational databases, again, could be distributed. And if people want easy accountability or auditability, they can use some of the technologies originated from blockchain. In that sense, Git is a blockchain because it's a chain of blocks. And of course, Git is the killer app of open source decentralized working. And so, I mean, if you think only of the cryptocurrency applications, I don't think that it will overtake central bank anytime soon in Taiwan. I think it only is a value in the cryptocurrency sense if the people have very low trust in the fiat, right? In the central bank. But if you mean it's like a ledger technology that keep people accountable and honest across jurisdictions among multiple writers for things like environmental science and things like smart contracts for labor, like for migrant workers, as I mentioned on the very beginning, those can see useful work of distributed ledger technologies and blockchain is just my implementation detail. How do you think it mattered for Taiwan that democracy and information technology came to the country at more or less the same time? Well, of course, that means that we see democracy as a set of technologies, social technology. So to us, technologies are not always industrial. It could also be social. The set of constitutional amendments of which another one or few is going on right now, it shows that even the constitution, the kernel of democracy is technology that people can contribute to, just like sending pull requests to the Linux kernel. How did Taiwan become such a nice country so quickly? Well, maybe the food is good and bubble tea helps too. What's the best food in Taiwan and where do you find it? Huh, well, I think the rough consensus is that you can console the Michelin guide which operates in Taiwan in a lot of municipalities. But of course, being a oyster vegetarian, the majority of which is, I don't really pursue, so you'll have to be your own guide. How do you think your politics have been influenced by Taiwan's Aboriginal communities? Yeah, the indigenous communities that I'm more familiar with is the Atayal and Amis, the former because I spent quite a few months, actually, if not here, right after dropping out of the middle school because my mom was co-founding experimental primary school in the Atayal Mountains in collaboration with the indigenous people there. So actually the students there also learns the indigenous perspective and I really feel liberated from a written culture that this orally preserved culture really takes me out of this human-centric point of view in a view that the mountains and rivers are long-lived sparrows and we're just transient stewards that works with them. I think that really have influenced my politics a lot to be less human-centric, the Amis, because I think they're a majority and so quite useful to remind people that in Taiwan with more than 20 national languages, there's various different gender stereotypes going on and once you have 20 different kind of stereotypes, it becomes a rainbow and it helps people to break out of the binary kind of thinking when it comes to gender, but also to other categories. How useful away is it of conceptualizing your politics to think of it as a mix of some Taiwanese aboriginal traditions mixed in with Taoism, experience in programming and then your own theory of humor and fun and if you put all of that together, the result is Audrey Tang's politics, correct or not? Well, as of now, of course, but of course I'm also growing like a distributed legend. At the margin, what's the new influence on your thought in addition to those sources? I just read again the Mandarin translation of Ted Jiang's novel collection, Exhalation. I already read the English one, but the translation book just arrived, so I read that again and so that's on the margins. I learned about the lifecycle of software projects and so on. I think that one is really good. What else from Chinese literature has influenced you? Of course, there's not only the Dao De Jing, there's this whole literary tradition that began with Lao Zi, but Zhuang Zi of course is of a lot of influence to me. The collection of poems, the Shi Jing also and of course also the Yi Jing, the original binary thinking, but of course the thing about the Book of Change is that it teaches about the only thing that is immobile that would not change is change itself and how to work with the change to face, to accept, to deal with it and let go of it. I think it's the core of teaching of the Yi Jing. And how about contemporary Chinese fiction or is that somehow too anti-empathetic? I didn't know. I enjoy the three-body problem trilogy. That's contemporary Chinese fiction, isn't it? From Taiwanese culture, what has influenced you most? So Taiwanese cinema from the 1990s, does that matter for you or that's orthogonal? Well, of course, I watch the artworks done by the Taiwanese renaissance of filmmakers and books and so on, but I wouldn't say that any of them influenced me to such a high degree as the classics has. So I'll probably have to say that of course I'm influenced one way or another, but not in a major part of my thought. And which Western anarchists, if any, have shaped your thought? Well, that's a really good question, isn't it? Well, I don't know. I mean, I've read, of course, the anarchists FAQ, the anarchists like Handbook online, right? And also the Illuminatus trilogy, which may or may not count as anarchist. That, of course, has really led an impression to me, but no, I think the main source of inspiration I draw of, and that's why I call myself a conservative anarchist is from the more Eastern traditions, the Daoist tradition, the Zhuangzi tradition, and more recently from Kojin, a Japanese anarchist thinker. To what extent do you understand Daoism as standing in opposition to a more hierarchical Confucian view? Or do you think it's simply a separate doctrine? By being a Daoist, do you view yourself as opposed to Confucianism? Well, the Daoist isn't quite opposed to anything. That's the thing with Daoist, right? We're always making space so that opposition can grow into common values and innovation. And I think that's something that the Confucian approach works to, except for the Confucianism that is by coding, essentially, the rights, right? The norms of practice, the best practices of norms. And for a Daoist, of course, that there's no best practice, there's just practices. And the best practices maybe just to share and let go of your practices and be humble. How do you think Singapore differs in this regard? Is there a different understanding of Daoism there? More emphasis on Confucianism? I haven't been to Singapore, I can't answer that. Never? I'm surprised. Oh, what would improve Taiwanese education the most? That's an interesting thought, right? Well, maybe Neuralink, but I don't know, right? In the meantime. In the meantime. Well, I think that the shift from a literacy-based, like standardized answer, wrote memory standardized test, the teacher knows the best, into a competence-based education, which is the people are produced as of data and media and narratives, that really helps. On the other hand, I'm biased because I'm part of the K-12 Curatorial Committee that put this into action starting last year. Do you have any sense how that's going? I know it's only a year, but. Yeah, I think it's going quite well. The cram schools, for example, instead of putting people into long hours trying to memorize standardized answers, are now offering cram schools on hiking and maybe kayaking and all outdoor group activities and also help on the humanitarian aid overseas. Even though travel is restricted, now we can still help through teleconference and so on. And so yeah, there's a lot more emphasis on social responsibility starting from a more tender age rather than just individualistic competition between people and people. You're working, of course, in Taiwanese government. What's the biggest thing wrong with economists? You mean the magazine? No, no, the people, economists as thinkers. What's their biggest defect or flaw? I don't know. I haven't met an economist that I didn't like. So I don't think there's any particular personality flaws there. A few questions about the pandemic. How much of Taiwan's success do you think was due to government's openness? And how much do you think was due to the fact that in Taiwan, standards for privacy are different than in the West? And there's a certain acceptance of government? Higher, I'm sure, yes. And more clearly spelled out. And so first of all, I think, having a clearly spelled out perimeter in Taiwan when it comes to privacy and a strong civil right movement that literally fought for those freedoms and memories are still fresh, really helps the conversation because anything that tried to encroach on the basic freedoms is immediately met with the counterargument. Do you want to go back to the martial law? Do you want to go back to the white terror? And of course, the argument would be a very strong and so the people who advocate for less privacy would, their argument would be a non-starter. And so I think it really helps to conserve the societal energy to work with the data that's already being collected, just use it in a way creatively to counter the pandemic instead of inventing new ways to collect data which always has uncertain privacy properties. So I think, of course, that helps. Now my country, the United States has made many, many mistakes at an almost metaphysical level. What is it in the United States that those mistakes have come from? What's our deeper failing behind all those mistakes? I don't know. I mean, isn't America this grand experiment to keep making mistakes and correcting them in the open and shared with the world? That's the American experiment. Have we started correcting them yet? I'm sure that you have. Okay, I'm delighted to hear that. How much did Taiwan rely on private lira and apps to combat the pandemic? Actually, Civic Tech, which is, I guess could also qualify as privately coded is different in the sense that how it works is open for anyone who want to fork that is to say to take it to a different direction. So while it's true that the original mask availability map was an open source, the API was open and open source clones and derivatives from the open straight map community from various other community very quickly sprouted and we have more than 140, a majority of which are open innovations and even the original mask availability map become open source after a couple of months. So if you keep working in the open, working out loud, even the most privately held corporations such as Google eventually agreed to make the parts of the counter pandemic, the mask availability and so on and develop them in the open. Given Taiwan's remarkable success with the pandemic, it's amazing success with high quality semiconductor chips. Why are there in relative terms so few successful Taiwanese software companies and to what features of the Taiwanese psyche do you attribute that? I don't know, TSMC writes a lot of software. So I think it's just consumer software like to see software, it's true. I mean, Taiwan has a unicorn now, although I don't usually use that word, company API that basically is entirely to be, they enable businesses to deliver insights from the interactions and refactor the online experiences and so on. But I'm sure that Pizzahut or any company that deploy API technology would not probably feature a powered by appear kind of way as the powered by Intel or powered by ARM kind of marker in their websites. And so there are very successful Taiwanese software companies. They are known in the software world. Trend Micro is another one because these are less directly to users, to customers. And so maybe they're less well-known, that's a fact. And so the Taiwanese psyche, I think it's mostly about being okay with that. I guess the hashtag Taiwan can help. Taiwan is helping, I really says it on the tin that we don't quite do this egoism. You don't have to thank Taiwan every 20 seconds if our innovations have helped to you. We really just want the world to be better. Do you ever worry that Taiwan has had so much success against COVID-19 that now the country is painted into a kind of corner, unwilling to give up its grand prize and it just won't be able to open to other places for a long time? Or do you think testing- I'm sure that once the vaccine is here around the turn of the year, I'm sure that by Q1 next year, when people are vaccinated, it will open. That is what the scientists are saying. If you're recommending for a visitor an ideal trip to Taiwan, obviously they fly into Taipei. There's plenty to do in Xi'an Taipei National Museum. But where else should they go for you? Well, the Pescador, the Punghua Islands is great too. I mean, Taiwan is beautiful islands and it's plural. So it's not only the mainland of Taiwan, but also the Pescador Islands, the Orchid Islands. There's many other islands other than the mainland of Taiwan for you to enjoy. What's your favorite Chinese dynasty and why? I don't know. I don't have a favorite Chinese dynasty. Do you have a favorite GPS location? My home, but the Tang dynasty, I thought would be your answer. There's the... I don't know. Xi'an is the capital. I haven't lived in the Tang dynasty. I read about the Tang dynasty. And although my family name I guess is the same character as the Tang dynasty, it never really brought me closer to any particular dynasties. As a Taiwanese, how do you think you understand earlier Chinese history in maybe a different way than Chinese mainlanders would? Well, I don't know. I mean, I identify mostly as homo-sabians. And so I don't... I mean, we're all descendants of some East African common ancestor. And so when you say your home, I immediately think of Lucy, which was strictly speaking isn't homo-sabians, but at the GPS location will be quite similar. So yeah, that's the view that I take. That of course on the land of the Eurasian plate, there's many cultures and civilizations. Whether you call it Chinese or not is quite besides the point. The main interest for me is how those cultures transfer and learn from each other and make cultural innovations such as Zen, which is a transcultural conversation between the Buddhist tradition and the Taoist tradition. And that interests me more than whether you call a particular dynasty Chinese or not. I mean, for the Qing dynasty and the Yuan dynasty, that's a very interesting way to call it a dynasty. I believe no Chinese person from the mainland would have given me that answer. Another historical question, when you read about the Taiping Rebellion, for whom are you rooting? The rebels or the government? Well, yeah, the Taiping Rebellion, the Jesus worshiping revolution. But there's a millenarian sense to it. That's a bit like some of tech-utopianism, right? That's the world should become an open place. It was a document. I think it was Taiping Yaoshu or something. That has a lot of tech-utopianism in it. But I don't think it's ever put into practice. So if you view it from a kind of admiring a science fiction novel kind of way, I think you can definitely root for it. But I don't think the Taiping Tianguo actually deployed what's described in the Taiping Yaoshu to any significant degree. Which are the most important remnants of Japanese influence remaining in Taiwan? Well, the emphasis on public health, the fact that people see that working in the medical and public health professions is the high and noble cause of calling. I think that was introduced by the Japanese colonial rule. And it's, well, of course there's a political part of it because the Japanese really didn't like Taiwanese going into politics or law for that matter. And but yeah, the emphasis on public health and on medicine and Medicare, I think that really is one of the legacies. The organization of streets and shops in Taiwan, especially Taipei, feels quite Japanese to me. Do you have the same impression? There are parts of Taipei that feels quite Japanese, of course, the cabinet office, the executive Yuan and the presidential office were both buildings of that era. Of course, they were also learning from European architects. So it's also very transcultural. In both Japan and Taiwan, baseball is fairly popular as it is in the United States, but most countries reject baseball altogether. Do you have a sense of why Taiwanese have welcomed baseball? Is it just historical accident or revealing of something deeper? I haven't considered that question maybe because when I was young, I couldn't participate in any kind of sport, baseball included. And so I've never thought much about sports. Esport, of course, I have thought about quite a bit, but of course, we're not here to talk about match the gathering, which I can talk for hours. What's the most popular esport in Taiwan? Well, that's a really good question. I think by the current definition of esport, it will probably be Wei Qi, the goal, which is a intellectual game that's played on stones and large boards, and of which AlphaGo, of course, showed that machines can play too. But it's still very popular in Taiwan, as with Bomoku are also known as Renju and Xiangxi, the elephant chess. I don't know how to translate that, actually. So various board games. And these are- Shogi, right? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well, Shogi is a slightly different rule and play in Japan. But yeah, board games that are trend-based and moved, of course, nowadays all into the electronic realm remained of the lowest threshold to join and therefore very popular. And what's your favorite esport? As I mentioned, match the gathering, but I don't play it much anymore. I used to play a lot. Because of addiction. So it's like the touchscreen smartphone? No, because I was making the software that enabled people to play match the gathering without paying Wizard of the Coast. It was a real software project that I was working on, the magic suitcase. And also working with the apprentice with the drafting mechanism so that people don't have to be locked in to Wizard of the Coast and so on. So to me, it also feels liberating, I guess, so that people even with no money who are living very modest means and so on can enjoy the game and essentially creating their own rules. Why is it you think that Taiwan has been so much more open and accepting of LGBTQ than most or maybe all other parts of Asia? Well, first of all, I think that's because, as I mentioned, there's more than one norm going on, even in the ethnic Han. There is the Taiwanese Halao, Taiwanese Hakka and many traditions, some of which is actually quite natural to have, I think, I don't know how to translate that term like a contractual union brother, whatever that means, and in the Taiwanese Halao tradition. And there's also the indigenous nations and with, for example, the Taiwan nation that doesn't quite make a distinction between genders when electing their leaders of the indigenous nation and so on, and so because of the transculturalism in Taiwan and open and democratic culture, we eventually see that even though there is a part of the country, maybe the majority at some point that sees marriage as between families and the individual that wed are just representatives of their families, eventually other more individual to individual norms prevail and in 2008 become the only form of recognized marriage which is by registration and that in addition to the feminist movement that fought for the equal rights for women to not having to relinquish her family name or marry and things like that, all led to the feeling of intersectionality so that the earliest feminist activist would then be the most ardent allies to the LGBTQIQ plus community. So I think early successes and also the way to work themselves into the gender equality committee and 12 years of gender mainstreaming work, the gender impact assessment in the public sector and so on, all of these mechanism designs helped to make a more liberal culture out of the existing culture, a family to family relationship which we did not actually disrupt with the marriage equality law. It only hyperlinks to the individual parts, the bylaws but not the in-law relationships, the family to family relationships. For our final segment of this conversation, I'll turn to what I call the Audrey Chang production function. At ages five to six, you read a lot of classical literature. What did you read and how did it shape you? Yeah, I read the Shijing collection of poems and it shaped me to view things always from coaches, from various different coaches because each chapter in the Shijing is literally one slice of culture, of a very different culture and it's a kind of collection of poems that shows how the same thing may be interpreted and narrated in completely different ways from two different cultures when they view the same historical event and of course the Dao De Jing that showed me that we are merely spaces of which thoughts may pass through us but we don't own the thoughts, the thoughts own us briefly. How did having a heart problem until age 12 shape your life? Well, I guess it made me less interested in outdoor sports. It also made me less prone to anger or really any passion, right? I can't feel very joyful either because of the heart condition. So I'm more calm and collected. I learned Dao is breathing exercises and there was me like a survival instinct still now. Do you think there's any cognitive disadvantage to being more objective and arguably more detached? I'm not sure that I'm currently detached to you and I'm not sure that I'm sharing things from objective point of view. I mean, I'm sharing my feelings and personal memories when I was a young child and these are only verifiable as phenomena in my own mind and so I'm not sure that the term objective is the right term to use here. What was your family discussion table like? It was very lively and because both my parents were journalists that works with the political and law training and so democratization is on the forefront of their minds and also because they were censored by the single party a lot at the time and so I would read their drafts and the drafts being censored and they will debate the censor taking the case to the owner of the press if needed be and for environmental justice and social justice and so on and so a lot of discussion was around censorship and the freedom of press when I was really young. Are there cognitive advantages to being transgender? Well, of course, I think it makes it easier to empathize with people because I've gone through some parts of your property no matter the gender of you and so I wouldn't feel that half of the population is different from me. I would feel that I'm just part of a homo sapiens. This is a large community. Do you think there are cognitive disadvantages of being transgender? No, I think people can be more transgender. I mean, when our minister, Chen Shizhong, the commander of the central epidemic command center put on the medical mask to show solidarity to the young boy who caught to say that he doesn't want to go to school because pink masks being rationed makes him look like he'll be bullied. I think Mr. Chen and the medical officers became a little bit more transgender on that very moment and so it's a practice like translation and transcoachalism. What's the biggest misconception about transgender life and existence amongst intelligent educated people? I have no idea. I have not done a qualitative survey. Now, you didn't go through the cycle of being educated in the United States the way many Taiwanese do. Do you think that's given you a different perspective? I don't know. I mean, the IETF and the internet itself maybe is really the American experiments value, the United States value, divided the United States written in a like 70, 80 kind of view in code. And so by working with internet technologies, by working with the implicit assumption of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and the press and to end innovation and permissionless innovation and things like that, I think I'm more imbued in the internet, seeing more imbued American value in the internet than a traditional education in the States would, I think. Now, of course, nowadays the internet governance is multi-cultural and there's multi-cultural internet domain names, but we're still using ASCII, which is the A in ASCII is American and the idea that the empty American values imbued in the internet are somehow universal, of course, are now being challenged, but it's not lost. I think the core internet is still very much the values that United States. Now, in 2014, you were part of a group of activists that occupied Taiwan's parliament building. What was your thinking behind participation and that activity? What were you hoping to accomplish? What did you see as the trade-offs? Yeah, I've read and actually translated Manu Castells in the ideas, in the books, Network of Outrage and Hope and Earlier in Communication Powers. And so we have the benefit, I guess, from learning from previous occupies, such as the Occupy Wall Street, of course, but also the 15M and other movements. And so I started understanding that the more that you can make humor travel faster than rumor, the more you can get people interested in a kind of night market fun-ish kind of way, the less likely that the more divisive and the more revenge-seeking part of a Occupy movement will grow. That is to say the conservative part in anarchism has a chance to thrive and people have a chance to arrive to rough consensus and running code, legal code in this case, when they can literally hum in the street. And so my main work there is just with a bunch of people in the Cup Zero community to set up communication infrastructure so that people can understand what's really going on with their own eyes and participating in the journalism making without being derailed by the rumors and disinformation campaigns that's bound to come with any Occupy. How important is the skill of translation for becoming a better thinker? I think it's very, very important, but so also important is the skills of rotation and scaling. Were you afraid that working in government would ruin or corrupt you? No, not at all. I'm working with the government. I'm not working for the government. What are your skills of rotation and scaling and how do you use them in the government? Yeah, scaling means that taking something that used to only happen between two people or three people that's listening intently and scaling it using technology to make sure that when I tour around Taiwan, I can still listen intently to people who are social innovators in their indigenous nation or their remote island or rural areas but at the same time through the modern technology which seems like magic at times. People from five municipalities, from 12 central government ministries can also listen as intently as I am to the stories and the innovations of the local people. And so that skills, the listening idea. And by rotation, I mean taking all the sides. So whenever there are people of differing positions on an emerging topic, it could be Uber, it could be eSports, it could be 5G self-driving vehicles who name it. If I find that I cannot argue from any particular viewpoint, I will work a couple of days to spend time with the community on astrographic just hanging out. And until I rotate my world view and until I can argue from their viewpoint. And so that's called taking all the sides. Why aren't there more Audrey Tangs in the other governments of the world? I don't know. I mean, that's a question for the other government. Maybe I think people were limited by the imagination of the government being a single thing, right? We said internet governance. We didn't say internet government. If the IETF or ICANN started calling themselves internet government, I'm sure that there will be a lot of more limitation in thinking in the multi-stakeholder approach, but no, we call it governance. We don't call it government. So maybe just the word government itself limits people's imaginations. And if rotation is fundamental to your thought, it seems that most governments in the literal sense of that term are not always so interested in rotation, right? They want to push through a particular set of policies to serve interest groups and constituencies toward the end of being reelected. Well, but election is a kind of rotation as just temporal, right? It rotates a little bit every four years. Sure, but any particular government is not interested in rotation per se. In fact, they would prefer its opposite over time. Yeah, but I'm talking about democratic cultures and democratic norms. So if we shorten the iteration to not four years, but actually maybe 60 days, as is the standard iteration in Taiwanese citizens initiative, the e-petition platform, then we can iterate more. Each particular generation, of course, in that 60 days are interested from their point of view. But if you rotate quickly, then even a still pictures when rotated quickly looks like animation. Actually, that's where the word animate came from. It's just quickly animated frames. If you think about your own life and career over the next few years, if you wish to increase your own empathy at the margin, what do you feel that calls for from you? Yeah, I think a couple more things, right? I need to learn more languages. And now with the help of assistive intelligence such as machine learning and translation is becoming much easier. I take a step doing that, translating how to use the traditional rescue that you see right here to disinfect the mask so that it kills the virus but doesn't destroy the PV material. I translated it and narrated it in I think a dozen languages. And so it's a beginning, but I look forward to learn more languages and communicate in more languages. And the other thing is also synthesize, right? More of the cultures that I have come across into a more transcultural way of living, transcultural way of thinking, and that includes up to the name of the country itself, Taiwan, the name of country is officially Zhonghua Mingguo which I translate as a transcultural republic of citizens. And now that's a, I wouldn't say universal, but at least a world globally applicable view. Anyone can be part of the transcultural republic of citizens. And which languages do you know now already? JavaScript pretty well. Yes. Well, pro, Raku, Haskell, and Python not very fluently, Ruby of course, and so on. There's- But English, right? C++, C-sharp, not really C-sharp. OCaml, and also C, anyway. Yes, sorry, OCaml is F-sharp. Yeah, English of course. But I think- Made of Taiwanese? Yeah, I think in English mostly, nowadays if you talk about natural language. And for me, Mandarin, or along with Mandarin, Taiwanese, which are my two native languages, I reserve them for more poetic expressions, but my work language is not definitely English. Audrey Tang, thank you very much. It's been a great pleasure.