 Welcome to the BCV channel. I am your host passing Seiko Woods. Please do the following Please like subscribe share hit the notification bell at the bottom of this video That way whenever I go live and post any content you be one of the first to view it Also, if you'd like to support this mission financially first and foremost Thank you those of you who have been so gracious and faithful and consistent in supporting this ministry the BCV channel And also love life and marriage with the woods. We do appreciate it. Thank you very much But if you'd like to continue to support this mission you can do so by clicking the donation links below at the bottom of the This video if you'd like to become a body lifer you can become a body lifer No obligation just those who desire to allow or make this ministry a part of your You're giving and support to ministries outside the local church You can do that by also just clicking the donation links below at the bottom of the video BCV merchandise is up and running. You can also Select and support the ministry by purchasing BCV gear hats hoodies mugs things of that nature are there in the BCV store Thank you so much those of you who have been Gracious and faithful in supporting this channel moderators. Thank you so much for joining Facebook family. Thank you also for being Here in the in the live. We do appreciate that Brother Richard. Thank you for joining over there sister. Michelle. I see you up in here Just pulled up just now sister Shonda get to see you as well. Jesus loves you Redeem by the Proverbs of course sister Jocelyn sister Lynn Sister Amanda by the puny. Who else we got here? Let's see Dean Q Who else who else of course the missus I got put her face in the place right there? There we go y'all. All right Gracious me good to see you my sister One love. Hello Sister Ashley good to see little sis that Christian fam. I understand your brother. The struggle is real I got you bro. Good to see you man. Hope all is well with the family. Miss Bobby good to see you as well, ma'am Congratulations brother Isaac your youngest son's prom night. Congratulations. Hope you have a safe time All right Just wanted to cover a few things ladies and gentlemen before we get started Chris sister Christine good to see you sis. Good to see you good to see you good to see you Brother Ted good to see you as well It's a few things before we get started and oh Brother Dale good to see you man. Okay, man. He says say go. I love you bruh I reached out to Corey told him to have a conversation with you because he's an error Praise God man. Thank you. I do appreciate that and actually I have a have a statement. I wanted to make As well Before I bring on my special guest who was waiting in the green room That's why I'm trying to go through the process right now and covering all the bases and announcements and housekeeping and things of that nature So moderators, thank you for holding it down. You do have the kind I want to I have one email to read but I want to I want to make a statement Of something that has occurred earlier today prior to me going live Again needless to say needless to say that There are people that are trying to stir up and so division in the body Bad enough. We are already dealing with this issue regarding, you know, brother Corey Minor and myself you want to use that again? I don't have a personal Axe to grind if you want to use that term now, I don't have a person that acts to ground with my brother I do believe my brother's in sin. I do believe my brother needs to make this thing, right? but there are people that are trying to Jen up. They're trying to Push this issue into more conflict and confusion than what it already is The Bible says the God has to offer confusion. He also said those who sow discord among the brethren He hates them. He abominates those who sow discord among the brethren those who lie Those are those are the seven sins. He says that he hates one of the seven is that those who sow discord among among the brethren and also lying so This is not this is not a game ladies and gentlemen. And so when you have people trying to create fake accounts and to pose as Being someone that they're not IE myself and Then they go on brother Corey Miner's channel and engage him in In a speech and in rhetoric That that I don't have to do There's no reason for me to go over to my to my brother's channel Because I've said what I needed to say regarding regarding that or if I want to say more I don't need to sit in this chat room I can say it on my platform or if we have an opportunity to camera face-to-face we can do it there But I'm not going to go on another man's channel and troll and stir up confusion and adding more conflict than what needs to be done And so I want to read this This this this text or this post rather that was that was posted and in a place in brother Corey Miner's And in brother Corey Miner's the smart Christian channels chat room Because this was not this is not my account. This is a fake account But I want to share it before we get going any further with this This account was was sent to me or this this screenshot was sent to me By someone who had noticed that they thought that my my name and image was there now You can see the second entrance entry right there It has my my channel name and it even has my image But I can I can assure you during the time of Corey Miner's Livestream today. I was not present in that channel. I Was not on this channel. I was not in this chat room These are not my statements. Those are not my words and if you look at the the the writing and what is being said Those who know me know how I am very meticulous when it comes to punctuation when it comes to Proper capitalization and things of that nature. So just look for it just a second It says Corey you don't think you're in sin notice that you that why oh you are This is this is not they're making it a personal pronoun. Yes, that's not that's not it That's not it It's supposed to be why oh you apostrophe re Okay It says Corey you don't think you're in sin for saying John MacArthur Doesn't need to step down You have seen the documents of the abuses John MacArthur covered for in the grace notice in the grace community church But also notice the the the first letter for John is not capitalized I am very I am very meticulous and I'm very picky and you can even say, you know I'm just I'm just a stickler for trying to do things right and so and when and when I do make errors I will put in I will put an asterisk next to the correct word or the term That's not me Someone else is a is a posing for me. They created a fake account They went over to Corey minus channel and they tried to stir up if not already start of confusion And I know that there were some words that were being stated By Corey because he thought that was me that was not me that that was not me What I did was when I received this information I sent Corey minor a text message and I told him and I'll read it here for you as well So this can go on record. I said FYI matter of fact And this is the same screenshot that I sent to Corey minor the same one I said FYI. This is a fake account. This is not my account. I Have no reason to be in your chat just so you know So again, I just wanted to clear the air with that But also I noticed something at the bottom of this of this Of the chat here as well. You can see Grady. This individual said I agree I think John MacArthur should be stepped down now However, that person wanted to you know phrase their words, but so you see people still are believing and are Demanding that John MacArthur should step down And I wanted to put that out there for the for the sake of of record and clarity in case someone tries to accuse me of Being a troll are to have enough trolls coming over here And so that's why I have moderators to make sure that everything is it's regulated and people govern themselves accordingly, I Wanted to read a text and this is also part of our I would talk tonight in light of what we're talking about with bullying and and bullies in the body My guests that I'm going to be breaking on Shortly he understands and he has experienced bullying first hand And so this verse that I wanted to share with you in Proverbs chapter 31 verse 8 and 9 are for those who are for those who really Have been victims of of abuse and at the same time Don't have a voice but People like myself and others they are encouraged and they are they are blessed to know that they are not by themselves although they may not have a platform and they may not have the the opportunity to be able to express themselves to know that ministries like this and others are standing in the gap like Julie Roy's and and and Other ministries Brent Detweiler and others that are that are that are sounding the alarm and are holding people accountable when they when they Sin against our fellow brothers and sisters and abuse them Proverbs chapter 31 verse 8 and 9 says open your mouth for the mute for the rights of all the unfortunate open your mouth Judge righteously and defend the rights of the afflicted and the needy Brothers and sisters ladies and gentlemen By God's grace that is what I've been called to do and that is what I will continue to do That we are Consistent in this ministry to to hold people accountable when they when they sin Publicly when they cause other fellow image bearers to to sin or to fall away We're all are called to do that and yes all of us should have skin in the game and Earlier today I was encouraged by this I received an email From from a viewer This morning actually and it says this it says past the woods. My name is D swag I'm just gonna give his handle name D swag which and he says my brother I reached out to you back in the G Craig Lewis exposure days. I was living in Houston for the past 25 years I'm originally from Dallas From 2012 unto 2020 I was attending a church in Houston where my pastor was a Kappa and you can only imagine how the church was ran He says well, I couldn't take no more and decided to come home to Dallas and I was going to go to ABC That's G Craig Lewis's church He says but I believe God led me to your G Craig Channel on YouTube or your G Craig videos on YouTube. I Was shocked but truth doesn't lie I've been checking you out and I can truly say you're on point, bro I don't understand the Calvinist as you once mentioned But I'm sure you'll explain as I close I would like to say that John McArthur is not qualified He says I believe a message needs to be preached Titled your pastor is not your savior because of pastor idolatry He says keep up the great work my brother May you and your family be favored and blessed and then he signs his name and he says I'll be supporting the ministry As often as I can And I received that email earlier today And I was just just wanted to share this as an encouragement and thank those of you who have been emailing us writing us and also Emboxing us as well too. So we just we just thank God for that. I'll ask for your prayers as well Because when you when you're doing the work of the Lord, I'm not saying is to be a victim like that or try to have a martyr I'm complex those who know you know The enemy will try to use whoever he can Whatever he can whenever he can to destroy or try to discourage the people of God and so earlier today That was that was that was the plot and that was a plan on both on both lengths Within my family not nuclear family, but in my family and then outside dealing with the accusations and the attacks As well And so I just thank God that you know If you're not made for this this will this will cause you to To just want to pack it up and throwing a towel and so just continue to pray for ministries like this and others Because we know what we got us called us to do it. It's not an easy thing It's not an easy thing and with that being said, it's not an easy thing for brothers like this gentleman to come and has been able to Share his testimony and had to go through the experiences that he did but of course by God's sovereign provenance We know all things work together for good, right? So I want to introduce introduced to some of you He was the former VP at the Masters Seminary University You may have seen and heard his story on Julie Roy's on her channel He has he has been in ministry at the Grace Community Church formally for over 20 about 25 years about 25 years And so I've had him on my channel before but to some of you he may be new But but some of you he may be familiar. So without any further ado, let me introduce to you. Dr. Dennis Swanson. Hello, my brother Thank you so much for coming on. How are you? Good wait say go good to see you again and be with you tonight. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Again, just wanted to express my appreciation to you, sir you definitely have Encouraged me and I told you before last year when I heard about your story I had to make sure that I brought you on because You really Kind of I believe set the tone and the stage for what we're seeing right now Occurring in the body of Christ, even though people are Afraid God does have a remnant. We understand everybody deals with situations differently but you know when he raises up men to to do the the Though the things that would that could be considered popular the unpopular things Everybody's not wired for it. And so people like yourself and and and and elder for me elder Cho Han Cho I have to tip my hat to you all and salute you gentlemen because again I know it is just the beginning of what we're going to be see unfolding As these days go on people are going to come out and speak up and speak out because God is getting tired of the of the of the abuse and the mistreatment and the Gaslighting and the manipulation that we see go on in our church today. So I just wanted to say thank you for that but Tell tell those who may not know you dr. Swanson a little bit about yourself your ministry and and and and your your Your your experience was on staff as a faculty member at at the master's seminary university go right ahead, sir Well, I started I was saved back in about 1972 when I was in high school. So I've been Doing doing ministry for a long time or evolving church for a long time and uh I was a la policeman for 15 years and Mainless senior officer working traffic accident investigation for the most part, although I my first two years were Just as a regular patrol officer in the wats housing projects so it was a a good learning experience for me in in in that regard because I think in my high school there was I think there was two African-american graduates in my high school graduation class. So I I had no real contact With the black community at all and then I ended up being a policeman in wats and worldly When I got there worldly, you know, just a little over 10 years on the other side of the riots So it was and there was so a lot of visible And I learned some good things there. I learned that you know people for the most part they were they were stuck in a Terrible economic and they were working to get their kids or grandkids out of there and And I realized that just like everywhere else 97 98 percent of those people were good people I mean not from a christian point of view, but just good solid people Trying to help their kids and grandkids and you have the couple of percent that are just like everywhere else, you know in Bel Air a couple percent of the kids or bad kids too. So it was a It was a good experience. I Tore up my knees and I was stuck in an office job And that's not why I got in the police department for so I left the department. I went into education Was going to go into ministry got my Master of identity for master's seminary Went off and and was was pastoring a church in gardena california One thing led to another and I ended up having to go back to santa clarita where we had our house Because the people that were living there kind of left abruptly without A lot of notice from me and I couldn't Traverse from there to gardena. So they found a new pastor and I Took a job at master's seminary working in the library within a I worked my way up. I ended up being the director of the library not long after that and then After a few years how many years I was there for about 25 years At the end of it. I was in charge of the library. I was in charge of accreditation And I was also then made the vice president over Operations of the seminary. So Basically it what everything that wasn't related to faculty or academics. I was in charge of And then in between in terms of ministry I I I discovered what kind of pastor I was like what kind of pastor I was which I think is important for everyone in ministry What kind of pastor are you and and I discovered that I was An interim pastor I I've had about 18 different interim pastorates over the years Um, in fact, I'm working on a book in that regard right now. And it's it's actually carried over into my professional life because when I left master's seminary when when I was Escorted out of master's seminary I Was looking I still need to work. I found I became the the dean of the libraries of the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, which was our historically American Indian school and I I turned 65 few years ago and thought maybe I should retire and I did and went to uh came down here to florida where I am right now and Spent about six months in cocoa beach went surfing every day And after a month of surfing every day, I realized I wasn't ready to retire yet so I Connected with an organization that provides interim leadership executive leadership to universities and higher ed and I just finished a year-long interim ship at university in the chicago area I lived in chicago the last year until just a few months ago and um probably within the next Couple weeks. I'll be settling into another interim or another dean's job at another school At least that's my hope. Well, you're a busy man, sir Well, I've I've been staying busy. I'm actually You know kicking around this idea of a book how to how to be an interim leader and Working on that. So I've got some experience there um I will say one thing about someone's talking about should should macArthur step down and I know this isn't on our topic, but One thing that has struck me recently again was All of the the several people I knew over the years that were elders that were made to Get off the elderboard there because of something their adult child had done who didn't even live at home anymore but when that came home to MacArthur's house when his his son was indicted By the securities and exchange commission. I mean for for fraud come on mark macArthur, right? Yeah, exactly and and yeah And and nothing he you know, they've they've they've decided that it's not Doesn't apply to him or or whatever, but I I just find that Um Disingenuous at several levels. Yes. Yes. Well, of course, you are nobody going to be discussing these things. So whatever you uh want to Feel liberty to do sir. You definitely have the uh the floor to do that. Um as well So let's let's let's talk about it a little bit. Um, you know the the wasp report. Um, you you're dealing with accreditation Can you let people know what the wasp uh stands for the uh the acronym wasp is the western association of schools and colleges the accrediting agency for higher ed in California mainly but some of the other islands and and regions around there And and people don't understand accreditation sometimes the the accrediting People the associations are they exist to do a couple things and one is to make sure Your school is doing what you say it's going to do You have a school has a statement a mission statement. They have a purpose statement. They have Um goals and objectives and the accrediting people come in and say, okay, are you doing those things? You say you're going to do them. Are you doing it? Are you running your programs with integrity? Are you running your programs? with fiscal responsibility because Without accreditation You cannot get Guaranteed student loans. You can't get federal financial aid for your students It's it's it's really the way to make sure there's integrity in that process The nwask is a very good Organization i've i've done i've been on visiting teams for them to other schools like usc and up in Sacramento state and other places Along with some other private schools and and and they have a good process. They're very very well respected They are they are not out to closed schools. They are not anti christian. They are they they They don't that doesn't come into the equation for them and um When i was Leaving when i was when i was being told that i was not going to be retained I reminded them that i said, you know, we're up to our hips with accreditation issues right now And um, I I said you're probably you're making a mistake but part of the the System with accreditation too is the relationship the accrediting board has with the the Representative on campus and we had a very good relationship. They knew if I told them something that that was the truth And they said oh, we have got we've got it all taken care of it's no problem It's all under control. Well, you know nine months later. They were on probation um, and and and Because of issues that we were trying to address I was trying to get them to address it and and we were unsuccessful And then when I wasn't there to push the buttons anymore then It got let go They struggled they were on probation And usually the way that works is you're on probation for a year and you either get off probation or you lose your accreditation Well losing accreditation is It's that's like the kiss of death for a college university And so I mean because you can't get you you can't get financial aid You can't your students can't get anything you're you're really limited on what you can do and they they got a new guy and they got A new president to come in part of the problem was that they didn't really trust MacArthur to be president of the school Because of the conflicts he had with all these other ministries and so they Got sam horn in as the president. I've I've known sam for years. Good guy solid guy been present elsewhere really knows education and really got and And they brought him in to help him get him off probation and he did he can he went to wask He worked with them. He did all the right things and they got off probation And then six months later they fired him Just like that. Just like that So he brought them or they said he brought them on praise them And then and then showed him the door and then they've got And and I've seen the paperwork I've not seen, you know the details, but I know currently the seminary is Trying to get its own accreditation from the I think the association of bible schools and colleges and basically I I think I I'm guessing at this point. I think the college and the seminary are on the path to splitting again Wow So I we'll see how that works. I mean they also dropped out of the ECFA that's right. Yep. And and for which is the the evangelical Financial for accountability. That's it. And I I don't know what was behind that But that that ranks as one of the dumb ideas of all time I mean there there's there's nothing to it really to belong to you you affirm to do things Honestly and ethically and provide Annual statements of your report which they haven't got a which they have to fill and send to the government. Anyway, so I'm not sure what the issue with that was but It's not good public relations. That's for sure Dr. Swanson, don't you remember when people like, uh, benihan Creflo dollar I mean you name any of the any of the the low hanging heretics, you know Would would not want to submit their financial statements or submit or be a part of the ECFA how I'll just say us quote unquote us on the other side will say you see that's that's that's suspect That's you know, why wouldn't the church why wouldn't the ministry want to you know, have their finances to be disclosed To an organization that's been around for for for decades, right? And so One one person said that joe lostein is a part of the ECFA So that's kind of an indictment if lakewood church and you know what they're about They're part of the ECFA, but but grace community church or grace to you or the master seminary If they don't want to be a part of that or they pull their organization from that Shouldn't that be some type of red flag? Shouldn't that send some type of message? What it it is to me because I just don't Um But it's it's common look at look at you or julie roy's and or others Newspapers the new york times and other large Who have tried to get or christian today who recently who've been who tried to get some statement out of Grace community or the elders or something and they just refused to respond They and and to me that's Um Just not and uh, it's I don't think it's a a biblical way of handling things to just ignore Uh requests and make no statement and it certainly doesn't look good right To not you know provide some Some answers to some serious questions. Sure. Yeah And um, yeah, it was like the uh, uh Well the whole thing with david gray and eileen, you know Well, we don't talk about Discipline or things like that. You know, we keep that private. Well How about the fact that she resigned her membership? You know before they disciplined her. Yeah, and And they said well, you know, we we can't let people who said well Church membership is voluntary. That's right. You can't make someone be a member of your church and then, um Sorry, I'm fussing with these earphones, but are you fine? That's okay They they, um You can't make someone stay as a member of your church. Especially when your sole purpose obviously is to kick them out Right and embarrass them publicly. Um so I I the the The discipline process at grace Even when I was there all the years I was there. I it was always Um Unsettling at a certain level because it was often done during a communion service Um, it was often done at night and I I And I never saw the The purpose for for mixing a celebration of communion. Yes with with Um, the darker side of church business and I I don't do not discipline. Sometimes it has to happen. Right. I understand. Yes. Yes, but and but They disciplined her but they didn't discipline him when he was sent to prison And he's still in good standing with the church as far as being a member He is not he has not had to out to my knowledge. You grit me far wrong But there's no statement saying that David Gray is not in good standing with grace community church In fact, he funded his prison ministry until they were busted and exposed Yeah, no, they were they were funding him. They were he was and it's Someone said uh, I forget who it was one of the online people said well, that must be because the the elders have come to the conclusion that he was innocent well if that's if that's They're thinking then they're goofy because yeah You don't get convicted and sent to prison 21 years to life on a whim Right and then and then get your parole denied and another He's going to be in prison the rest of his life Yeah, yeah eventually and for for horrible horrible things that he did. Yes. Yes, and he's exactly where he should be Amen. Amen. And and and we're not saying that people can't be uh saved or anything like that But it doesn't remove the consequences for for what you've done Uh, I I don't believe that he was a Christian when he did those things I just don't and so for for for grace community church particularly particularly John McArthur to treat Eileen Gray as the as the villain and David Gray as the victim And then even and didn't even want to see this woman to this very day This woman has yet to receive any communication from from John McArthur No, no apology any of that and and so when I hear people and that's why I populated one of the comments Uh, because this this this gentleman, um, he has you know at one time He was he was basically demanding that John McArthur Step down and be removed and now he's saying that John McArthur does not need to step down well And I'll I'll just put a challenge. I you know a challenge. Please Look at look at his life and I mean McArthur's life and all the stuff that he's got recorded Show one place where he has ever apologized for anything I mean If you can find when you're a better person than I am because I have I've never heard him admit that he made a mistake Or that he's wrong or apologize for doing anything Dr. Swanson, I thought I was the only one thinking that I thought I was the only one Observing that I mean and I looked I mean, I mean as a matter of fact create me if I'm wrong Dr. Swanson He would he did a q&a session on the mark about the market of bees the question about the market of bees was presented to him And he said that you know those who take the market of bees. Yeah, they can still be saved But now I have is I have his commentary His commentary says the opposite matter of fact his commentary is correct But what he said in the q&a It's totally that was heresy and yet and yet Phil Johnson tried to cover it. He tried to minimize it Uh, you have other individuals that did uh video defenses for McArthur and and and uh And and you have all these people defending him I mean, I I've done videos about this man for the past Maybe almost 10 years off and on about some of the things that he said and that he's done and it's not it's not a mere Slip of the tongue or Freudian slip. I'm talking about statements that could that can carry grave and eternal consequences Telling people that it's okay to make a you know That is sinful for a christian baker to bake a wedding cake for a sodomite or homosexual Homosexual wedding and then turn around three years later and say it's not a sin I mean, it's just it's just where does it where does this where does it really stop Dr. Swanson? well, and there's He never he never apologized to me for Taking a swing at me at a basketball game once Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute Wait, come on now doc. Come on. I didn't even know that What we had a uh, we used to have a pretty good Saturday Basketball league and and he was still I was younger and he was younger and still doing so high and I This is the last game, but he He gave me a shoulder and knocked me into a back brick wall and I Stood up to him and and told him I didn't appreciate that and uh, he took a We had there's got one of the staff pastors and and his brother who are my team You know and I was a policeman then and and so I wasn't we We we sort of had to be separated a little bit and are you how okay to hold it? That's why how long ago was this? How many how many In 76, okay, so y'all were young but still nonetheless. He was in ministry. He was a pastor He was a pastor. We were still we were playing in the gym where we still were meeting at that time the building hadn't been built yet but uh, he's kind of he's kind of thin skinned So he he tried to go bill lambir on you, huh? Well It was it it was silly because um, he was so slow that I just got away Now, you know what since you're bringing your sports, let's let's talk about his uh, if you can if you can recall I know page page rogers. She did excellent work Uh about his uh about his football career Um, did you want to did you want to touch on that a little bit? Well, it ties into the lies. I think Right. I mean the thing is The idea that he always put out that that he was contacted By the cleveland browns by paul brown to replace paul warfield who had broken his ankle um Is absurd I mean It he played three college games in a very small Uh, it wasn't even um Uh, it was like naia level college He he rushed for he rushed, you know for three yards in a total of two games I mean He he was He was a Certainly above average athlete Certainly not pro level Wow and and um Say another funny story. We used to play golf the Some we'd have a beginning of the school year the seminary faculty we'd get together and play golf and he would he would generally play and we like everywhere else we had a You know one of the holes would be a long drive Hall whoever hit the longest drive would get something and uh One year and they and he and may he always played together. They were always the last group through and and The last year it was on the 18th hole and and I out drove him by You know 20 or 30 yards and and um, he was really mad What he came well, he he came up and hit the ball. Yeah, I guess he hit a decent drive. I didn't see it and um Came up came up and thought he was going to put the marker where his ball was and and they could Marker they thought it was gone and oh, oh, it's up there. You know, it's Way, I wasn't a good golfer, but I could hit the ball a long way So is so you saying he is he was he uh, is he a sore loser? I mean, it's oh my gosh he doesn't He doesn't like to lose He doesn't And never admits anything's wrong. Wow. He's never made a mistake in his life Well, well speaking about speaking about mistakes. Let's talk about the plagiarism Um, you know, you you wrote you wrote a chapter and uh in the book. Was it biblical counseling? Actually, when it first came out, um, I worked with Wayne Mack I helped him edit it. I helped him put it together. I did um An annotated bibliography at the end and I also did The chapter on frequently asked questions and so I we created the questions And we sent them out and had people respond to them and I I wrote a couple of the answers myself and It came out it and it's you know, if you look at the original edition it says, you know Compiled and edited by denison twanson And then there there was two other books. There was a preaching book introduction biblical expository preaching and then there was a another book on pastoral ministry And Several years later MacArthur they took those three books preaching and pastoral industry and counseling and repackaged them into something called the macArthur pastor's library So when the new one came out, I was working at the seminary I was built the library and when the new one came and the counseling I looked at it Just to see what it was and lo and behold my name wasn't on the chapter for frequently asked questions anymore It was it now said by um by john mccarthur yeah, and so I went to My boss and I said what's this all about? and He just shook his head and said there's nothing we can do about it So let it go and I and I did for a long for a long time. I was annoyed by it, but I know recently then I finally Complained I actually contacted Word publishing who did it and they looked at and and they weren't happy either and they They assured me that the next time it's printed They would change that they would change it back to the original Titling I've not seen one yet and they said when the in the electronic version that they would immediately change it So if anyone downloads the electronic version now, I assume it has my name back on it But you're not sure if it does though. I haven't seen one. So but I haven't had the opportunity to go look Okay, I know phil johnson made some ridiculous statement that that there was a A license That there was an agreement that they that allowed them to change the names of You know who did a chapter which is absurd phil phil knows less about copyright than he does about theology. I think but But it's not true. It doesn't work that way and so it's It's it's one it's silly and two two And you keep noticing these things, you know, it's the macArthur pastor's library. It's the macArthur study bible it's the macArthur this or that or the other and That's That's just problematic I mean everything has to have his name on it and they think that's well because that's what sells well quality sells And and things that are I mean it can be tangentially related to The church or the school or or even him without having his name on it, right? it just a It's it's just silly plus, you know, he he doesn't It's it's patently obvious to anyone who's done work that that he doesn't write his own books I mean There have been several ghost writers over the years phil was phil came in with the gospel according to jesus and did a lot of books after that And there's been two others since then and if you just read just grab four books and read them from different decades It's clear that the same person did not write these books There was someone before phil he was I can't remember his name. He was a reformed episcopal minister taught english But he was the original ghost writer and I always say I mean If you look at like The original copies of how lindsay late great planet earth It says how lindsay but in very big letters right under his name It says carol karsten his ghost writer At least the cover of his books. He had the integrity to tell people that I had someone help me, you know, because he wasn't a good writer apparently I I have a copy of MacArthur's mdiv thesis You know, which I have to assume he wrote and Styles don't change over the years too much. He and his He is In that piece. He's not a good writer Not not great. It's not terrible, but it's not he has a particular way and and that style is never repeated in any of the books It's Wow I just you know, you you put your name on something and you had a Well, it's like the study bible. Yes Well, macArthur never preached a lick through the old testament except a short series through daniel and a short series through zacheria You know 35 years ago and So all of the all of the notations from for the old testament and the macArthur study bible were all created by the seminary faculty I heard that story before I've had seminary students tell me that same story. Yeah, and And even some of the new testament, I mean some of his he'd preached through some of the new testament and it was dated there was more up-to-date information and You know, so those got rewrote rewritten as well and he had He'd come in and truth be known dick may who did the macArthur study bible Without dick may hear the study bible never gets done Now do you remember where you where you had the 2003 shepherd's conference? In fact, I remember playing the audio because I was talking about Uh, I think it was in the series that I did or a video that I did is john macArthur christian And what I did was I played one of the audio clips of john macArthur at the 2003 shepherd's conference I think it was general session number one but He he was talking about Before he had priestess sermon he talked about the study bible And he said he said writing that book writing this writing this book was it was a was a I'm writing laugh because you're already saying no He says many hours upon hours and hours. He said like it's fourth. I think he said 14 hour days For seven days a week and for an entire year. He said just pouring over each note Each this and each verse and I'm like and I was just impressed because I was a new I was a new believer and I'm like, man He did all that and wrote this and wrote the study bible, you know, and and now he you telling us That's all all the cap all lies it was He'd show up once in a while but they had set up an office where they had all the paperwork and stuff and and Their dick was there all the time working on it macArthur would show up once a week For a few hours and then he'd leave Um, no, that doesn't mean he wasn't doing something at home, but I don't think so. I mean it was um And and he was still preaching on sundays. So he was prepping for sermons and and whatever else but um It it's It's becoming and and Things are becoming more and more insular there and it's very Concern, I mean now they have their own bible version Which isn't LSB the LSB. I think it is the legacy study bible legacy standard bible. It's not a new version. It's it's uh an old new american standard tinkered with It's and it's it's not terrible. It's readable, but it's not a it's not a I mean To call it a new translation is not certainly not accurate. yeah Yeah, but I mean, but you know why they I know why they do it It's it's royalties. Of course because I mean for like the first issue the first macArthur study bible came out in the new king james version because Thomas Nelson, the publisher, owned the rights to the new King James, so they didn't have to pay themselves to use the text because, you know, they didn't know. No one knew if the study Bible was going to be successful or not. You don't know that until it comes out. And so that's what they did. They couldn't buy hymnals anymore. The hymnals that the church had used for years and years and years, they stopped printing them. And so they created their own hymnals. What? Yeah, the hymnal they use now is one that the church created, what, five, six, seven years ago now because they couldn't buy the publisher quit printing the ones that they had been using for years and they used up all their supply hymns, so they created their own hymnals. And it's, like I said, it's just insular. It's just, I don't have, I don't know how, I mean, well, you've seen him in the last couple of weeks online. He's not well. That's patently obvious. Yes. What happens when he dies? I did, I've done church consulting. And that was actually my I studied under Tom Rainer at Southern Seminary in that. And last time I checked, I don't know what it is now, but at one point, 60% of the people who attended Grace Community Church lived more than 20 miles away from the church. You said more than 20 miles? Yeah. Wow. 20 miles or more. And, you know, how many of those people are going to keep coming when John MacArthur's not there? Right. I have no idea. But it's a, well, you know, when he passes, when he dies, he passes, that church is gone. I'm talking about the day of his funeral? It'll be a, it'll be interesting. I mean, it's interesting, you know, when, when Grace Church took off, when it started really growing back in the, by the late 70s, by 1980, when I checked the records, there was actually 25 fewer churches in the San Fernando Valley than there had been before Grace Community took off. Right. Yeah, I mean, so I mean, it closed a lot of churches. Man. People leaving their church to go and listen to the new famous preacher. And that happens everywhere, but it's, it shouldn't. Right. But there was one church, First Baptist of Canoga Park was, they had, they were on the radio, they had a big ministry. They were nearly 2000 people. And in about a five year period, most of those people moved to Grace Community Church and the church was down to a hundred people. So this attitude of, it is safe to say that there is a cult of personality or idolatry and at Grace Community Church. And I mean, he's getting an example. Let me get your reaction to this. Five percent of John McArthur is more than the entire evangelical world put together. Absurdity, idolatry and absurdity. It'll take 40,000 John McArthur's to, to, to fill his shoes. These are statements by Phil. These are statements by, by Steve Lawson at the, at the Shepherd's Conference. What was your reaction when you heard those, those, those statements? I just laugh because it's, now, seriously? Yes. Who in the right mind would want to follow John McArthur? If, if, if you would want to follow John McArthur at that church, that probably is a good indication you're not qualified to do it. That's good. Because it's, it's going to take, it's going to be a lot of cleanup. Absolutely. That's a, it's a, an enormous, um, and churches aren't set up that way. I mean, look at, look at the very few churches, big mega churches like we have now, continue past the celebrated preacher that they have. Yes. Some of them do over the years, you know, Moody Church for many years. I mean, they, Times Square Church, Times Square Church, you know, you know, but I think their foundation, they're not known for scandal per se. You know what I'm saying? So it's different. They have a, they seem to have accountability in place. You know, we can talk doctrine all we want, but that's the funny thing for me. It's like those that we want to attack or go after whose doctrine may be, you know, non-sysational or, uh, or, or charismatic, they don't have as many scandals or abuse or sex scandals in the, in the, in the, in the church, or I'll put it, say per se abuse rather, then, then the reform, though, the Calvinist or the non-charismatic side. So it seems to me that we want to focus over here and deal with critical race theory or deal with the LGBT or deal with, you know, woke theology and all of that. But we have glaring in your face. You know, what are we going to do about this? But, but, but they're quiet. And if you say anything about it to them on Twitter, they either block you or they ignore you and they just act like you don't even exist. Well, and, and, and look at it from a, you know, any other entity. Have you heard, have you heard even a whisper that, that MacArthur is trying to groom whoever would succeed him? That they're, they're doing, no, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's, there's nothing like that happening. They, they, he doesn't see the ministry there beyond his life. Man. I wanted, I wanted to touch back on one thing, but we didn't, we didn't touch on this point and we would deal with the WASC report because there was something in their, in their, in their findings that was very telling. And I believe it really, you know, it hit the internet and it basically described the, the culture and atmosphere at the master seminary, the university and did, out of mind just, just grace community church, but the WASC report was focused on the school. And it said there was a culture of intimidation, of fear, bullying and people in fear of losing their jobs. Can you, can you elucidate on that a little bit? Well, sure. I mean, this was more at the college because they obviously had a lot more personnel, but there was, there was no room for disagreement. If, if you disagreed with anything that MacArthur said, regardless if it was part of the doctrinal statement, you were gone in a very short amount of time. It, it, it was when I left, I tell you a story about, after I was gone, I had a lady that worked for me in the library and she was my circulation manager. So she was a supervisor. She was in charge of the student workers who were all seminary students, who were all guys. And when I was gone, they fired her for no particular reason other than they were, you know, they didn't, they didn't want women in charge of anything. And I had always protected her from that. And her father who had supported the ministry and always was appreciative that I was, who lived, he lived in Ohio and it was always appreciative that I took care of his daughter and looked after her. He had money and, and he enlisted the services of an attorney and they sued the school and they won for wrongful termination. They settled somehow, but it's because there was no reason to fire her. Yeah. There, there, there was, and you just never knew what, you know, someone might disappear the next day. Well, what happened? Well, like me, I've been there for 25 years. I was, I was, I came in on a Monday after I just got back from a conference and I, it was a holiday. It was a Monday holiday and I went in the office just to check my mail and see what was there. And I got, they, they either knew I was coming or found out that I was coming by there or whatever and had me come over and told me I was done with no severance, no nothing. I mean, just, yeah, I wasn't, I technically, I wasn't fired. They gave, I, I got six months of severance and but told to clean out my office that week. Wow. And so that was, it was a, yeah, I was fired, but I wasn't fired. You know, I was, I was no longer needed for the mission of the school. So I was given severance and, and it said have a nice day. And, and it was, none of my, I couldn't, I wasn't allowed to communicate with my staff. So they had a meeting the next day and said, Oh, Dennis is not here anymore. Just like that. Just like that. And it was. Wow. And that happened to other people too. Not the seminary, but at the, at the college. Gotcha. I mean, the seminary was, wasn't this not a very large school. I mean, there's not ever a lot of people there. Yeah. So it was, well, and, you know, you know, Dick Mayhew, who was the Dean, you know, basically six months before me, he was, you know, shuffled into some other job and, and basically told that your career is over. Wow. And, you know, with, but not, but not Corey Welch's. Oh, that was, there was another, another kid that was there. His name was Rich Gregory. And he's the one who sued, who's the one who got sued over the firing of my ex-employee. And he's, they showed him the door not long afterwards. The, the Watts report also mentioned about nepotism, which is why I, which is why I mentioned, you know, about John McArthur's son-in-law, Corey Welch. Oh, yeah. What, what was his, I mean, I mean, was it that obvious that this was nepotism for him to be in his key position? It was, I, we were going to rebuild the front lobby of the seminary. The building was about 10 years old by then, and we wanted to redo it. And, and instead of having an inward arc, have an outward arc and make it a little bit bigger and put some fancy things. And so I was, that was part of operation. So I was in charge of, of putting that together and, and taking care of it. And, but I was told that I had, you know, normally you go out and get bids and things like that. I was told I had to use the Welch group for the bulk of this work. You had for, I had, I couldn't get other, I couldn't get other bids for the electronics or the screens or any of the things you're doing. I had to use the Welch group. So you couldn't, you couldn't call three separate cons, like we always, none of that. And I'm assuming that came direct from my order from MacArthur? Yep. Wow. Well, through, through someone to me. Of course. Yeah. Of course. And, and, and it was miserable experience. He was, they were always late getting specs to me. You know, the equipment, the first time they gave me specs, we bought the equipment they specified, turned out it was the wrong equipment. And so we had to replace it, but he got paid. So I, it was, they, yeah, a lot of things they didn't think through, but yeah, he was, he was the worst. Wow. And, and that company or his company, whatever, whatever it was called. Yeah. Would you, would you consider John MacArthur to be a bully? Oh, absolutely. And why, and why is that? When he doesn't get his way, he gets mad or gets even. There was a, there was an event way back when, I think the early 80s, they call it Black Monday. We basically fired the entire pastoral staff. What? There, there was six or seven members of the pastoral staff and, and they had been there from the beginning with him and, and thought that, that he had turned a corner. He was, he was turning it into a, a dictatorship and not a, you know, pastors working together to build a ministry. And they had complained, called them in, they fired up, there's five or six of them that all got fired on the same day. I was thinking about another case or a situation. This was dealing with the, and I, and I did play the video of this one. What was the guy's name? He was, he was a police, assistant police chief, Robert. Vernon, Bob Vernon. Bob Vernon, yeah. So he was an elder, he was an elder for a while too. So can you talk about that situation? Because there was a, there was a situation that occurred at an abortion pro-life March and they were, they were protesting in an abortion, at an abortion center. And in fact, I played the video of it. It was very disturbing. I didn't, I didn't know that it was John MacArthur that had gave supposedly allegedly gave counsel to, to Robert Vernon, Bob Vernon, regarding how, you know, Romans 13, if they're not, you know, submitting to authority, then, you know, you have the right to, to remove them, you know, all this other kind of stuff. And people were, I mean, some people's arms were broken. Some people were actually almost trampling on by horses. People were, were visually, you know, visually assaulted. You saw it. I didn't know if you wanted to kind of speak to that or how did that have a stain on the church? I remember the, the event because I was off the police department by then, obviously, but I was still, you know, interested. And actually, Bob Vernon's son-in-law, married to his daughter Pam, he and I were in the same police academy class together. And Bob Vernon was a good guy. He was genuinely viewed on the department as, as honest, fair. People looked at him as scants because he was outwardly much more religious than, than people were used to. He did not get along with Darryl Gates much. Okay. And, and, and I, I think he thought maybe someday he'd be the chief of police, but that was never going to happen. But I don't know that I don't have personal knowledge that MacArthur counseled him how to handle a police situation. And if Bob listened to that, then I think, think less of him then. Got you. I wanted to, I wanted to play a clip and get your thoughts about this. This is actually tying into what we're discussing about bullying and how the church should respond and confront this issue. This is a, I believe her name is Alyssa Shielders. Let me know what you think about this and how true is our statement. I knew that there were biblical qualifications for leadership, but for some reason what we end up doing is we, we elevate talent or skills over character. We, and why do we do this? I don't, you know, why dynamics preaching over. Yeah. Yeah. We, we begin to, you know, we, we disregard character as if it doesn't matter. We look at what is going on on a pulpit and we think about what's being said, which sometimes spiritually abusive situations, oftentimes what's being said is actually right or close to right. Like Mark Driscoll a lot of times would say things that, you know what, biblically, I could agree with you. Yeah. But we're, we're disregarding the behavior where, and, but what I love about the biblical qualifications for leadership is it includes both. Yeah. It talks about sound doctrine and it talks about behavior, but we think, I don't know why we do this in the church. Why do we think that leaders deserve a longer rope? Like we should just justify all their sins. Because why? Because they have a, they're good, you know, rhetorical skills or they've got a huge platform. Why don't you get your thoughts about that, Dr. Swanson? How, how, how, how important is that statement that she made? I think it's very important. I mean, because it's, you see it time and time again. I mean, there are, there have been pastors, people that I respect greatly, who have been great on both sides. Look at someone like Warren Wearsby pastor for years at Moody Church. A great preacher used to teach preaching. I could listen to him all day. And at the same time, a guy of Sterling character whose son went into ministry, he, you know, he, he was, he was, and there, and that kind of person can be replicated throughout. But, but she's right. You know, very often it's the person who is loud and, and, and, and take baseball, for instance. Yeah. Tommy Lasorda. Oh, no one would say that Tommy Lasorda was a great X's and O's baseball manager. It's not like he didn't, but he, he didn't have to. He, he was, he had a persona. He was a, he was loud and boisterous and, and he wasn't a pleasant individual to get along with, but he was, but he got elevated. I mean, and his team won. So that, that helped. I mean, had Grace Community Church not grown, or if they ever had a significant decline, what would happen? Who knows? I would, would eventually, would they have stopped putting up with him and shown him the door? I don't know. Circumstances, um, like I said, you know, success breeds success sometimes, but, and it was just, but well, for instance, I mean, when you, if you started going there in like the 80s, he started preaching through the gospel of Matthew for 13 years. Wow. And, and, um, so I mean, you could, you could be born, grow up almost in high school, and the only you ever heard were the gospel of Matthew. Yeah. Is that the proper way of the proper methodology to build a church? And, and I, I, man, to me, you know, the verse by verse preaching, and I, and I believe in it, but you know, when that used to be done on Wednesdays. Wow. Or Sunday school. You never did it on Sunday in the, in the morning service. Vernon McGee with at church door, he did all of the verse by verse stuff. That was all on Wednesday. Wow. Listen to, and, and Vernon McGee, you listen to Vernon McGee preach a sermon when he was in his prime at church in the open door, he could preach. And it was a, and when MacArthur's got into that, the verse by verse stuff, it was, it was new, it was unique. It was different, caught on. I think it has a place, but not for 13 years. Right. Yeah. Or, or eight years through Romans. Yeah. Or things like that. You know, it's overkill. It's overkill. All things in moderation as the old saying goes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know what I think about also, though, too, Dr. Swanson, I think, you know, for me, when I was, when I was pasting out and I actually went through the book of Matthew, right? And my wife, and my wife and they can tell you this, I said, if there's an issue as we're going through a book or whatever that I need to address, we're going to get off of this book and, you know, we're going to get off the Bible bus and address this. I believe that, that biblical pastoring or shepherding, you meet the needs of the people. You don't get so, so tied in and so laser focused as to say, okay, we're going to go to the book of Matthew. But wait a minute, you got all this stuff going on in the world and your people need answers to know how to respond to these things. But if you just focusing on just preaching through one particular book, and I've heard people say, well, you know, but if we go through, if we go verse by verse through a book, we'll get to it. Well, for how long? Because now if you got a family that's needing counseling, I've got a situation in your church. And for me, when I read the epistles, when I read Paul's letters, and he says, now concerning the things which you wrote unto me, those were issues that they were needing answers to. And of course, they had to wait for months to probably get an answer back from, from the apostle Paul, right? So, so I think sometimes we can become so, as a matter of fact, I know we can't, we try to mimic and, and, and copycat our favorite preacher. And while they may be doing that, we don't know what that those congregants are going through. You know, I just believe that if we submit it to the spirit of God, and, and, and that the prophet says, know well the condition of your flock and of your herds, then that means you need to be involved. That means you need to be making sure you're taking the pulse of your people and not just focusing on one particular book, because that one particular book may not address that issue that your, that your congregation is dealing with. Right. Didn't mean to rant, but that was my, that's my point. No, I agree with that entirely. Yeah. It's, it's like all things in moderation, create balance and understand your, the preaching is important. It is the high point of the service. I'm not as committed to that part of it anymore. I think the high point is the people coming together and worshiping, the prayer and the singing and, and different things like that. But, and, and, and the preaching is important. There's no question about it. It should be all collective. It should be collective. It should be the whole, the whole. Yes. Absolutely. But you shouldn't, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't have to wait years to get to the next book of the Bible. Oh my gosh. I would probably, I would probably put my follicles out because I don't have any more hair. You just be pulling my follicles out. Let's get to the next part here. So in this, in this section here, Dr. Swanson, I want to play these clips. Not sure if you've seen them before, but I'm going to get your reaction to it. This is an interview that Brother Timothy Jones had with Tim Hurd vibing with the bing-wing nut. And they had a brief conversation and the subject of Elder Han Cho came up. So I'm going to play these clips. These are going to be two clips and then we'll, I have your thoughts on it on the other side. Well, can you clarify for me the fullness of Han Cho in regards to John, John MacArthur, what is your answer to Han Cho being, being basically coming back to John MacArthur and saying everything that we, that we investigated is absolutely true. You guys miss some things. You guys need to repent. And MacArthur saying, ah, forget about it. And basically the, the elders coming around and telling this man that he needs to retract his findings or resign. What happens with that? And like I said, I'm not trying to come at you. I really want to learn this. I really want to know because I got a lot of people in the audience that want to know too. We have to be careful with what you said because what you just said is false. What you said isn't what Han Cho said and it's not what John MacArthur said. And what everyone needs to realize is that we don't know all that was said. One thing I know is that the elder board did not commission Han Cho to do an investigation. That's false information that, that you have stated. That's false information that others are stating as well. It was a request that was, I'm sharing screen, I'm sharing screen, Arnie. It was personally and informally a request was made personally and informally. The elders never commissioned him to do an investigation. This is work done by David Morrill. So when you get your thoughts first, I'll let you chime in, Dr. Swanson, your take on what Tim Hurd said regarding for my elder Han Cho. It's not true. He's nuancing the words in a way that makes it to his benefit, but it's not true. He was assigned. He was asked. He wasn't the only one. There was four of them, I think originally on the group that was studying all of this. And he did go, I mean, I know where Tim's getting it from. He's getting it from Phil Johnson. Of course he is. Exactly. Yeah. And it's just the truth. The idea that Han Cho would run off as a renegade doing this all in his own with no authority from the elder board behind him is just patently absurd to anyone who knows him. You couldn't find a more loyal, elder, solid guy than Han Cho if you went on a worldwide search. And the way he was treated was shameful. But that's again, I mean, look at what happened. I mean, did John MacArthur, oh yeah, you're right. We need to fix this. No, he never admits that he's wrong about anything. And so I know, I think Tim is entirely, you know, as we used to say, sucking it out of his thumb. Yeah. Sean said on the screen, I'm not sure if you can see her comment, she says, so it was four, not just elder Cho. It was, there was four of them all together. It was him and three others. I don't know who the other three were. That was in the, that was in the CT article. CT article. Yeah. So now here's something I don't know if you've noticed it. I don't know if you noticed what he had said though, Dr. Swanson. He said that he told Tim Jones that Tim is an error because we don't know. But then here he says the next breath, but here's what I know. I know that he didn't. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, dude, you don't even know what you're talking about. But see, again, they make these statements and he has no proof other than like you said, he's being fed information from Phil Johnson. But Phil Johnson doesn't want to go on record making a statement, but yet he is making a statement behind the scenes. Yeah. And it's to somebody who doesn't go to that church, who never went to church to my knowledge. Is he even in the same state? I have no idea. But and, and is removed from the situation, never met, you know, the family, never met David, never met any of these people. And Eileen Gray, David Gray, doesn't wouldn't know them if they if he tripped over them, but he's somehow now the renowned expert on the timeline and everything that happened, which is just silly. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the next clip. Going to still talking about Elder Han Cho will come on the side. So the Christianity Today article claims that a lawyer and one of four officers on the elderboard at Grace Community Church, Chow was asked to study the case. Chow's office was as recording secretary. Readers of the Julie Roy's article would, readers would be forgiven for concluding that he was chosen for, excuse me, chosen by the elders to commission a fresh investigation because of some special legal expertise, a conclusion supported by his friend, Rachel Don, Don Hall or whatever it is. In reality, Cho was asked personally and informally to summarize the available court documents from the David Gray criminal case. That was alluded to by Phil Johnson back in March of 2022. No Cho led investigation into the church's involvement with the Grace was ever requested by the elders. So that's important to note because that's one of your talking points and it's false. Okay. All right. So where, okay. So with David Morrill, I mean, I'm sorry, dude. I mean, I'm not saying that David Morrill was wrong, but after everything that Pulpit and Penn have like really done over all the years and the bad rap that they've gotten, I consider, I consider protestia and David Morrill like the CNN of Christian News, boss, I'm not trying to down anyone. Like I said, it's not an insult. But at the same time, you guys say, well, that didn't happen. But here, Julie Roy's reports different. So it's basically he said, she said at this point, so I'll give you what Julie Roy said. Julie said, Cho told CT that after TR's initial story published, GCC elders tapped him to review the decades old case. When he did, he became convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that David Gray was guilty and GCC had committed terrible injustice. In a 20 page document submitted the GCC board, Cho reportedly wrote, now that the facts are indeed known, it's not too late to do justice even at this stage almost 20 years later. One's own integrity and upholding justice and righteousness and being faithful, even in the small things, even for something 20 years ago, all matters immensely. But here's the reason why I'm thinking I'm going to go in the direction of what Julie Roy's reported, because Christianity today picked up the story from Han Cho and Han Cho officially resigned after stating that when he came back with the facts, he was told by MacArthur and company that he needed to retract his findings or resign. So he says that this is what Han Cho says. Han Cho said, I was asked by the elder board. You see what I'm saying? So you have David Morrill who's going to third party information to rebuttal something that Han Cho himself. So I'm coming directly from the source of Han Cho and David Morrill is coming from other third party and third party sources. So I don't, like I said, this is what, you know, protestia, this is what your buddies at protestia have done for a long time. And out of all the hip pieces and all the lies that they've been exposed for, dude, especially with JD, like I said, I'm not trying to kick them down. JD Hall, good friend to you guys. Okay, I get it. Addiction sucks. I have compassion, I have a heart for that. But the thing is, dude, is that I'm just saying I'm not saying David Morrill is wrong. I'm just stating that when it comes down to everything, who, where do we really want to stand? Because I mean, David Morrill and they've already kind of proven themselves as being dishonest doesn't mean that they're not being honest in this. You know what I'm saying? You know, so I'm not trying to down you guys, but I'm just saying, man, like when it comes down overall, it's for the audience to choose, but the results, the results of Han Cho going to see, going to Christianity today, and him saying this himself, you know what I'm saying? So because this is what Han Cho said and Han Cho officially resigned as an elder on that board. Now, interesting, they said on their on Tim Hurd reading the article from protest, he said unbeknownst to the rest of the elders that Han Cho conducted this investigation without permission. I mean, it is just it would anger you if you did not know how much of a joke and how and how much matter of fact, even Phil Johnson called JD Hall's journalism quote unquote yellow journalism. He called it that. And so what are your thoughts about about what you've heard in his and Tim Hurd's so called defense? Well, Tim Tim is engaged in the ultimate wishful thinking. He would like he would like it. He would like MacArthur to be completely innocent in this regard. I mean, this is a this is a scandal. I mean, this is this is, I mean, at a certain level in a if it wasn't related to a church, this would be actionable. And I believe I believe Han Cho over anyone else. And notice there's there's you don't have John MacArthur, you don't have the board chair. And and interestingly, we read the CT article. This is typical what MacArthur does. He never does things himself. He always he went to the board chairman and said, you need to get Han, you know, under control or get rid of him. Wow. He doesn't he doesn't deal with things like that. He never does anything like that himself. And I that's exactly how I would have thought it would down. And that's the way it did go down. I the idea that like, again, I say the idea that Han Cho would go off and and do this and create a 20 page report is silly. I mean, yes, he's an attorney, and it helped him. It helped that experience to plow through some of the legal documents. But he's an entertainment attorney. He's not a criminal attorney. So I mean, he could read the documents in the court reports and be able to pull out what he needed. But it's not like he had expertise in criminality. That's not his that's on his field of law. But and and and what Tim ends up having to do, he has to he has to without saying it, he has to say that Han Cho is an out and out liar and everything he wrote and said in CT article is a lie and everything he, you know, that none of it happened, you know, and I that is that's an insult. It's an insult. It's just I know it's just impossible to believe. Yeah. Yeah. The next clip, of course, they're still talking about Han Cho. And I believe Tim is going to respond now to what Tim Jones said. So we'll come back on the other side as well too. And you have an elder, Phil Johnson, saying no. He's saying he's saying that Ho Han Cho is not telling the truth. Phil Johnson, that's who's quoted that. That's what I read. Phil Johnson said no, he wasn't commissioned to buy it. And you're at least don't mute me. Okay. You're your charge of, you know, I don't know if David's lying or telling the truth here or not, but and then you go on and on and on and all you're doing is poisoning the well. You're poisoning the well. It's a philosophical term. What you're doing to your audience is saying, look at all this false stuff over here, which you're not being specific and we don't want to, we don't have to. I mean, the J.D. Hall situation breaks my heart and it breaks my heart every day. Okay. And so what you have here is you've got Cho, Cho's testimony and what David is sharing is Johnson's testimony. Okay. So you've got, you've got two elders. Okay. Okay. You're going to believe one and not the other. But we're third party. We're fourth party. Right. So we don't know. Do we actually know? Do we actually know? Is it Phil or is it Cho? Do we actually know? If you have two individuals on two sides, right? You have David Moore in a company who have proven themselves to be false. You have, we have you who have admitted personally to to Jeff Durbin that you intentionally lied and use your platform to do it. What I'm saying, stating to my audience is not poisoning the well. What I'm stating to my audience is consider the sources. That's what I'm saying. So if Han Cho officially resigned, if Han Cho resigned and left the church stating this is why I left because I called them to do justice and they wouldn't do it, then I'm going to listen to what he says because the evidence, the circumstantial evidence pops up with him. Overall, when you have Phil Johnson who, dude, Phil Johnson has lied for MacArthur for years. Dude, MacArthur said he was there at Martin Luther King's death brah. And Phil Johnson said, well, you know, MacArthur just doesn't remember things right. That was his MacArthur. Let me say something. Phil Johnson is a yes man for MacArthur. Everybody knows that. But my thing and I'm and I'll let you speak in a second. My thing is the situation of where you're considering in your weighing the sources for information and protest is not a good source for information and neither are you due to your own admission. Okay, if you're going to keep going back to 2017, right, you're going to go back to 2017 when I admitted my guilt. And when I make points, you're going to go back to 2017 and say, say, Tim, look at, look at you lied and you were, you were not trustworthy and you admitted it. You admitted it, Tim. You were wrong and you admitted it. So why should I listen to you right now? We need to bury that quick or everything that we're doing here is for not because here, let me give you an example. And so I wanted to get your thoughts about this. And then I have, I have some receipts to pretty much disprove what Tim heard is trying to defend. But I wanted to get your thoughts about, about, about this again. Well, I mean, he's right in the sense that, that Phil is runs cover for MacArthur. Yes. I think truth be known that the biography of MacArthur was largely written by Phil. Yeah. And, and to try, you know, to try to say, well, I, I, yes, I made a mistake in the past and you're trying to bring that up again. It's because he's, he's dug a hole for himself. He's, he's relying on information from Phil Johnson, who I wouldn't, if, if Phil said the sun was up and it was shining, I would go outside to check. Amen. I just, I have no, no use for him. I don't think he is reliable at any level, but he's one of the insiders, which is one of the, I tell you, this is one of the issues I have with the organization at Grace Church, because it, it moved from when MacArthur came there, it was a congregationally run church. I mean, the congregation voted to call him as the pastor. And then they introduced elders and the congregation used to, you know, vote on the elders. It's not that way anymore. The elders point, the self perpetuating elder board, the elders select the elders and they have, you know, an executive committee of elders within the elder board itself and, and some things that they do are, are not readily known to the other elders. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's just a, a terrible way of running a church, but no matter how big the church is. Yeah. I wanted to play this, I'm not, not play, but I want to share with you the screenshots because now, interestingly, remember, you know, Tim is basically, Tim heard that is, is saying that, that Han Cho is lying, that, that he was, he was, you know, he just did this by rogue. And he was not, you know, requested to do this. And so, well, I believe, I believe, you know, receipts, you know, to the truth, you know, receipts don't lie, but people do. And so I wanted to just pop like these, you should be able to see them on the screen. This is your buddy Fred Butler. You know, he is, right? Oh yeah. Okay. So someone said here, this is what Fred Butler thinks of Han Cho. That's some strong language. This is February of this year. He says he is, he is talking about now Han Cho. He is slandering the brethren in high-handed sin, colluding with people who hate our church. He's old, no respect. That's one tweet there, he says, right? Then he have another tweet. Joseph Lavelle, he responds to Fred Butler. He says, hi, Fred, I'm the author of this post. Been searching through scripture for biblical justification for actions like this. As an elder, if Cho was in sin, then he had a requirement to rebuke him in the sight of all. Can you share your biblical understanding of just erasing him? And Fred responds and says, there is no biblical principle or command that obligates a church to host the sermons of anyone, let alone someone who has left the congregation months ago and is now hostile to the former church. He responds to Fred again. He says, oh, very interesting, very interesting perspectives in your responses. He said, hope is okay if I respond to each. He says, never mind. I believe it was Cho who was tasked with investigating by the elders. He was trusted that much to be their representative in the matter. And if he didn't know the facts and the other elders did, then he was under obligation or task from the elders to garnish them before he gave his report or findings. However, from what we know, they did not say he was derelict in his investigation, but disagree with his recommendations. Right. And so Fred responds back and says again, he wasn't tasked by the elders. He could have asked the very men who were a part of this case 22 years ago, 22 years ago now, but he didn't. Joseph responds. It says interesting because that's not what field Johnson posted on Twitter before he was locked out. And here's the tears that here's the here's the smoking gun. It was shared on Twitter, but not posted here specifically by field. And this is from expository parent parenting. It says quote, many of you have questions concerning the Julie Roy story released this week concerning John MacArthur as we abide by Proverbs 1817. I reached out to field Johnson. He and he provided the following comment. So, so, so Dr. Swanson, can I just ask this question? If this writing says he provided the following comments, would this be a statement? Sure. I mean, yeah, it's that's that you're saying field Johnson said the following. Okay. So he says, note, this is not any form of official statement from GCC, but, but, but field is still giving a statement. Right. And here's the quotes. It's in quotations now. It's in quotations. I haven't even had a chance to read Ms. Roy's column yet. She deliberately posted it to coincide with the start of the shepherds conference, which isn't completely over until after church tomorrow. She is writing about a 20 year old discipline case that I had no involvement in. It didn't pertain. It doesn't pertain to me in any way, though she always attaches my name to pretty much everything she does. A friend of mine who was both an elder and an attorney with a special interest in defending real victims. Oh no, I'm not going to go there. Real victims is investigated the case. I don't know whether the church will make a statement and if so, when, but I'm disinclined to think all the noise about it represents a legitimate desire to know the truth because all of the screeching tweets from the survivor quote unquote community calling for a halt to shepherds conference while someone gives a speedy answer to a piece written by a career muck rocker who has proven to be inaccurate and misinformed in the past. If they want GCC to respond, they need to give more objective people an opportunity to investigate the case. Now this is Phil Johnson's quote. This is suppose this is what he said, right? Well, there's some highlighted portion that Dr. Swanson says a friend of his, a friend of Phil Johnson's who's both an elder and an attorney. Yeah. Now I'm just looking at based on process of elimination, sir. Let's just say so if there was four reported to investigate this case. Okay. One of them now resigns. He's an elder. CT gets his story. He tells what happens. It seems to me based on logical deduction and reasoning that this former, this, this friend and elder who was an attorney was Han Cho. Sure was. Okay. Okay. Han, one of the most loyal elders that they ever had. Yes. That's crazy. I mean, so Tim heard again, once again, doesn't know what in the world he's talking about, but the tweet conversation continues on. It says, Fred says, that was Phil asking him personally apart from the elders, not the elder board asking him. He asked them to look at the links Roy's had on the court documents and he came back with his report nobody asked for and everyone who actually knows the case said was wildly inaccurate. Joseph responds and says, now see, that makes even, that makes it even worse. For one, Phil isn't no one asked for. He's the executive director of G of GTY editor of many of MacArthur's books and someone MacArthur explicitly trusts. He was the public face of the elders after the original Roy's article and assured people that an investigation was going to happen internally that actually made a bunch of a bunch of critics angry that an investigation wouldn't be done by a third party. Interestingly, he continues on. So either Phil asked him to do this investigation for the elders or the elders has no, has zero intention of doing any investigating, which could be far more derelict of their oversight responsibilities than simply disagreeing with the said report. Either way he says, sounds like trying to have cake and eat it too. Was an investigation done? No one asked for one? Then why did Phil say one was being conducted? This is getting worse in my mind. He says, by the way, he says, it's important to note I'm not anti grace. I'm a graduate of the MABC program. And then of course, Fred, he responds was getting worse. His investigation was reading court documents, not looking at the original counseling case, which he didn't bother to look at. And then it's only unrelated to the court case two to three years later. Now, I'm just going to ask the obvious question. Dr. Swanson, is Fred Butler an elder at Grace Community Church? What does this, what does this man have to do with any of this? Where is he getting this intel information from, sir? He gets it from Phil. He's, he's Phil's, you know, he's, I was going to say something about a tag dog. I'll see it. Well, not even that. He's kind of like, you know, the, he would be like the Peter Laurie character in a horror movie. I mean, that's, that's, that's Freddie. He has no, all the years that he's been there. He's never gotten any leadership position because he's unqualified. He, he takes care of things and is Phil's lackey. And that's the, the, that's the end of his ability. Yeah. The idea that he, you know, he doesn't know anything independently of what Phil tells him. Yeah. That's right. He is a male room. He, he's the male guy. Wasn't he, didn't he work in the mail room at Grace? I think he works, I think he's still, whatever he does at Grace to you is now it's out and it's not there anymore. It's way out of Korea, but he's not a lawyer. He's not an attorney by any social imagination. Oh gosh. No. Okay. I don't even think he's a college graduate. Okay. It's to, to Fred, Fred just attacks and, you know, he'll just make things worse. They should keep him from talking, but they don't. Yeah. Here's going to be something that's interesting here. You know, they said confession is good for the soul. I guess it depends on what soul is being good for. I'm going to let you listen to this one. Don't worship John MacArthur. And you, you've been transparent. I'll be completely transparent. Okay. I have, I have 108,000 subscribers, right? And it's not because of me. I, I am not, I am not a witty guy. I don't, I'm not a quick thinker. People don't tune in to see, you know, what is Tim going to say today? They tune into what's the latest news on John MacArthur? I've had a YouTube channel since 2012. And about five years ago, I was like, how can I get, how can I get more subscribers? I mean, I have 8,000 subscribers, but it took me, you know, eight years to do that. I mean, and I was reading stuff on YouTube about how to grow your YouTube channel. I was like, just look at the videos that most people that get your most views. Well, whatever you're saying there, that's what your audience wants to hear. Well, I did a search and it's like, every time I talk about John MacArthur, I get lots of views. And I believe that John MacArthur, the people who wore against John MacArthur see the same thing. And they're like, Hey, when I talk negative about John MacArthur, I get more views. So you know what, I'm going to talk negative about John MacArthur more. So it's on both sides. You know, John MacArthur's not going to be around forever. So I need to come up with something else to talk about. And also, I bet, you know, I do share other videos that sometimes get a lot of views, but with the 100,000 subscribers, there's the plaque. I never made a video about it because I know it's not about me and I display it sideways because it's kind of awkward that I have it because again, it's really, it's really not about, about me. Right. Yeah, that's best when you say, yeah, right. Yeah. Your thoughts, sir. Well, that would be like, you know, that'd be like, you know, Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford saying after the 19, you know, 60 World Series that it wasn't about them or the 56 World Series wasn't about them. You know, of course it wasn't all about them. It's false modesty, disingenuous. I mean, why, if that was the case, why would he ever even look at the numbers of how many people he has? Right. I mean, it just, it would just be, it would never occur to you. You just, you go in and you do your, you know, you, if this is your job or your ministry, you go in and you do it and then you quit for the day and you get people that, you know, give you feedback and you go from there. The idea that you look at how many people you have responding, who cares? Now, this is going to be the next three clips, sir, is going to be very interesting. I know how you feel about justice. I know how you feel about, you know, racial issues and things of that nature. We've had conversations. So yeah, you may want to get you a stronger drink after these clips because your former member, he went on record making a statement regarding black people and white people. I believe it's racist. I actually had Tim heard on my channel two years ago, I believe it was in 2021, I think it was March to six or whatever like that. Tim, Tim, Tim heard and, and Fred Butler, they used to be partners on the Bible Thumping Wing Nuts podcast and supposedly Fred Butler had wrote a blog and for some reason, Dr. Swanson, I'm going to populate the link and, and those of you who in the chat, you can tell me if you find it because I believe it's just, it's gone like Hillary's emails or like Waldo. You may have a hard time finding it, but there was a blog title who, who would have thought reading the reformers would be racist? And he made some, some very white supremacists and racist statements. And so I challenged him, Tim heard about it and asked him to denounce it and take it down. And so he basically tried to make excuses for the, for the comments. So let me just go ahead and just play these three clips and we'll come back on the other side. But let me just go ahead and just pull up the post from Fred Butler. Who is a part of Bible Thumping Wing Nuts ladies and gentlemen? What part is Fred Butler of Bible Thumping Wing Nuts? He wrote an article on your site. Do you remember this? That's on my website? Yeah, look it up. Who knew that, who knew that thing quoting the reformers would be racist? It's called White, White and Black, the Unlogy? No, I think it's called whoever, whoever thought quoting the reformers would be considered racist, something to that effect. But it's on, it's under, it's under your website, under Bible Thumping Wing Nuts. And you have a problem with it? I'm sorry? Then you have a problem with it. You said, do I have a problem with it? No, I'm affirming you have a problem with it. Anybody that has discernment, like you said, would have a problem with this statement that's being, that's being posted under your website quote. Now folks are going to respond by saying that learning from Christians of an African heritage is far different than learning from the participants in the radical reformation. Moreover, learning specifically from African American theologians is certainly not the same. Okay, sure, I agree, but let's face the hard truth. This is Fred Butler's. Can somebody put a link to that so that we can find it on the internet? And as they do that, let me finish reading the rest of this article. Fred Butler says on your website quote, okay, sure, I'd agree, but let's face the hard truth. The white European Western society Christians are truly the ones who not only preserve Christian orthodoxy for everyone, including recapturing the Bible in their original languages. They are the ones who shape the course of Protestant Christianity throughout the world and specifically here in the United States. I don't mean to be dismissive of their contribution, but African American Christians are a small portion built upon the main foundation that just so happens to be according to God's providence, a white Western European English one. A seminary with three or four year tract designed to train men as exposition of preachers must stay focused on the foundational matters and that regrettably edit subjects others may believe are important. There is nothing racist about that. I will beg the different. I'm pretty sure those who read this and just heard this would take this to come off and to be interpreted as white supremacists. I don't mean to be dismissive of their contribution. What is their contribution? Some of those who are black folk, black people, but African American Christians are a small portion built upon the main foundation that just so happens to be according to God's providence, a white Western European English. This is on your website, Tim. You got the link to that? I'll go ahead and find it and post it up here for you. There's a link right there. Yeah, I would encourage everybody to go read that so they can find out what you're talking about. Okay. Do you support that statement? It's on your website. I have to read. I'd have to read the article. I don't. You don't. You don't. So you don't read it a long time ago. Say again. So my question is, do you support that statement or do you renounce it? It's in paragraph four of what C.T. German said. I'm unfamiliar with the article. I'm unfamiliar with Fred's argument. And would you like me to take that off my website? If you would, I will take it down right now. I'm just asking you. Until I do further research, would you like me to take it down? No. I'm asking you based on that statement. That statement is a white supremacist statement. It's on your website. Your website. You said that you run Bible Thumping Wing Net. Fred Butler basically now is under you, right? No. What is your relationship with Fred Butler? We were good friends. We're good acquaintances now. We haven't talked in a long time. He hasn't written for Bible Thumping Wing Net in a long time, but he has written a lot for Bible Thumping But this statement that he wrote right here, what is your response to that? Fourth paragraph. What proof does he offer demonstrating his marriage of secret racism? He begins by expressing his gratitude to John at TMS. I don't even know what he's talking about. Well, what we do know is what he said in that paragraph in that article. That's under your website, under your domain. That's your website. You have control over what's being posted on your website, right? Are you offended by it? Should I take it down? Dr. Swanson. Well, he has the same problem that others have. He can't admit that he's wrong. And the statement is, one, patently offensive to any thinking church historian. The western white Europeans did not recover the original languages. I mean, remember that the Greek Orthodox Church never stopped using Greek. The Latin Church, the Roman Church used Latin, of course, but it's just absurd. The idea that the blacks have a insignificant or a little impact is just absurd. And how many of some of the early church fathers like Augustine, Totalian, and others who were not Caucasians? Yes, yes, yes. And Athanasia especially. But, you know, and I mean, you can get going with it. I mean, Christ wasn't Caucasian. Right. I mean, it gets right down to it. I mean, and there are a lot of these white supremacist neo-Nazi groups out there on Twitter right now that are just yes, yes, most offensively absurd things, all in the name of Christianity. This Corey Mahler who just got excommunicated from the Lutheran Church, I think yesterday, and he's one of the biggest, you know, offenders in that regard. So it's, I mean, Corey Mahler could have easily written exactly the same thing that Freddie wrote there. Right. Now, you're not saying Corey Minor, ladies and gentlemen. He's saying Corey Mahler, not Corey Minor, in case they're trying to make sure. Yeah. Work on my pronunciation better. No problem. Go ahead, sir. Go ahead, sir. But one, Freddie has no qualifications or has ever exhibited any, you know, sufficient background with sources and materials to write something about Christian history in that vein. And Tim couldn't bring himself to say anything bad about it. Right. Because then he's admitting that he's got something like that on his webpage and he's, oh, I'll take it down. I'll take it down. And no, just, you know, make a statement. Explain yourself. That's right. Yeah. This is bad. You know, say that you made a mistake. Now, you know, interestingly, too, Dr. Swanson, you know, Phil Johnson, I also raked him over the coast earlier this year because he endorses Ariel Dabney. He said that Ariel Dabney, yeah, he said Ariel Dabney is one of his favorite theologians. I didn't want to play the clip because I played it so many times, but it is in the video that I had this clip exerted from called White Supremacy in Bible and Bible Thugging Weenus. And so I played that video back and I asked Tim to respond to it. Tim, of course, was caping and covering and defending Phil Johnson and said, well, oh, he knew he's denouncing the racer. I said, no, he didn't. He said this man is one of his favorite theologians. I said, how would you, I said, how would you all feel if I said that Lewis Farrakhan or James Cone or Jeremiah Wright was one of my favorite theologians? All hell would break loose. And you know it. They gave, they gave to BD and you relay a hard time for just him endorsing certain people. And they questioned his, his walk with the Lord. And I'm saying now you got people like Phil Johnson, John MacArthur, they, they, they lawed and praised a racist who hated black people and claimed that this man was a Christian. And I'm saying to myself, how, how can you, how can you espouse this man's writings and teachings when he makes it clear that black people were less than human? R.L. Dabney and Phil Johnson is on record saying that he is one of his favorite theologians and said that the reason why he, he said that the reason why he feels bad that he could have been, been probably the greatest theologian was because of his racist views, but he was a product of his time. Fooey. That's what you see. If, if, if, if, if he was a product of his times, then, then why was there civil war? Because all the people in the North were products of their time. You know, it's a, it's, it's silly. And, and Dabney, Dabney was a, well, yeah. And, and Nathan Bedford Forrest who, who was the ultimate in racists. But he was converted. He ended up getting converted and got saved. And I can say he was the same born in the same era and generation that R.L. Dabney was got saved by the gospel and turned his life around. Yeah. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't frankly use Dabney for anything because of that, because it takes, you know, when you believe a, an enormous that, that people, that, that to use a theological definition that tripartite yes, people. Yes. Are that somehow this group of them is inferior. Right. And because of, you know, their, their skin color or whatever. Right. Right. Is there is nothing you're going to be able to trust after that because it affects every part of your theology. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And interestingly, interestingly to Dr. Swanson, they also gave people a hard time when, when John Piper had, had also was participating in the MLK 50 celebration a few years back. I mean, Phil Johnson and all of them, they was giving, they was giving people a hard time about this. So, so MLK was a product of his time. His theology was, was jacked. He, he, he was a, he didn't, he denied the resurrection of Christ and things of that nature. So he's not a Christian, but by R.L. Dabney, he, he's okay. Yeah. And how, and how many, you know, well, but look at the church, how many Grace Meany church, what's their, how many elders are non-Caucasian? Please talk about that story. Let's go to that story that you mentioned about. I think this was about the WASC report about them not having diversity in their, uh, could you, can you cut, can you touch on that when MacArthur said in that meeting? Oh yeah. I was in a, I was in a WASC meeting. In fact, I, I hope, let me say this real quick and then I need to stop for a minute or two and go get my plug so I can plug my laptop back in. Okay. Um, uh, we were in a meeting, uh, conference call with WASC and, uh, I was at the college, I was representing the seminary, John Stead, who was representing the college was there, and MacArthur was there. And so we're, they're asking questions and, and the WASC people say, you know, we're, we're concerned about the lack of diversity on your border trustees, which at the time was exclusively Caucasian. And John MacArthur with a straight face, because they can't see him, but we can see him. He said, we have diversity. We have, we have a Dutchman on our, on our board, John Van Wingerton, a Dutchman. So yeah, we have, we have diversity. So, and, and I looked at John Stead and John Stead looked at me and we just, what in the world, please make this stop. You know, and, and they were just the people on the WASC, on the WASC side, they were just astounded. They didn't know what to say. And I actually talked to one of them later afterwards and I apologize. I have no idea what he was talking about. But, uh, he said, they said, was he kidding? Was he laughing when you were there? It says, no, he's completely serious. Wow. Let me, uh, go ahead. Yeah, that's fine. And why do we do that? I'll go ahead. And so, uh, ladies and gentlemen, I'm hoping you all are being informed about what we are doing. Again, Dr. Dennis Swanson, he's been here before. But every time I'm, I, this is the second time I've had him on and seemed like every time I bring him back, he brings up more information and new, uh, insight to what we are dealing with. Because again, this is, this is not somebody that's just been on the outskirts. This man has been in ministry for over 25 years. He was a part of Grace, uh, church. He was on staff. He's seen things that many of us would probably never see, but may have heard about. And I'm waiting for someone to try to discount this brother's testimony. Uh, he was also, uh, he also was a guest on Julie Roy's podcast and, and I would encourage you to go to her, her website, uh, Julie Roy's.com and just type in under the search bar, uh, Dennis Swanson. You can read his story. You can read his, uh, testimony and experience and get in game more information regarding that as well too. Uh, we have a few more things to cover and then we'll, we'll, we'll be ready to wrap this up. But I just wanted to, uh, let you all know that, um, these are receipts, ladies and gentlemen. And again, people can deny the facts, but you, you, you'll be a fool to do so. And so again, uh, Dennis Swanson, as we get ready to almost, uh, wrap up, get a couple more clips to play for you and get your reaction to this. Um, JD Hall and David Morrow, you know, those two gentlemen as well. I know the names. I have not listened to either of them extensively. No. Okay. Are you familiar with anything about their work and what they represent? A little bit. A little bit. Okay. Would you consider them to be a reliable, credible source? No. Okay. Well, let's see, let's see how you respond to this particular story. This is, uh, I call him, uh, David No Morals. And I titled this clip, David No Morals Strikes Again. With two kids in the Jeffco school system, Stephanie's school he ran for and won a school board seat in 2019, right before things got ugly. I did not anticipate that happening. And it was, it was a surprise to me. This summer, schoolie and other board members got this anonymous letter, which included a picture of her home. We live in your community, said the letter. We are not concerned with the efficacy of masks or vaccines, only the rights of Jeffco parents to send their children to school while choosing for themselves. What's best for their families? The writer urged schoolie to change Jeffco's school mask policy. We expect you to stand up for our rights. Please do the right thing. The intention was to intimidate and to make me feel unsafe and scared. And what we then find is we get these letters if we had no idea. So from now on, you now know it needs to stop at a subsequent board meeting. Schoolie broke down about what she called a veiled threat. Please leave my family out of this. A police investigation was launched to find out who was behind the letters and if they broke the law. It's gone too far. Who wrote those letters? Oh, I wrote those letters. Yeah, that was me. You wrote those letters. Yep. It was apparently fingerprints on the letters that led investigators to David Morrell, a parent and anti mask advocate who explained to me why he sent unsigned letters. So it wasn't just me. I didn't, I didn't want them to think that I was just speaking for myself. What were you trying to prove by taking pictures of their house and then sending them pictures of their own homes? Well, again, that we all live in the same neighborhood, but I was actually there that I cared enough to want to speak to them personally. Morrell acknowledges he never spoke to a single board member in person at their homes. You don't see going to the school board members' homes and taking pictures of their homes and sending those to them as being over the line or a bit of an invasion. No, no, I don't think so. I didn't, I certainly didn't see it that way at the time. It's unfortunate that they feel that way. Yeah, just to call us non, not, you know, non caring attitude of this guy. You know, he reminds me of his idol, Phil Johnson, when he did it, when he docks Julie Royce. Well, I wonder, I wonder how he'd feel and his family would feel if people were going to his house and taking pictures and sending him, you know, anonymous letters. It's that's, it's too bad they didn't put him in jail. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's what he, that's what you belong. This last these last three clips, this is gonna probably upset you because this is, I believe, hits right below the belt, below the belt and flagrant disregard for those who have been abused and and then to to ascribe, subscribe, blame to ascribe blame to to victims of abuse. These people, in my mind, these people cannot be Christian if this is how you how you think. So these last three clips, sir, and then I will let you comment on the other side. If you remove the wife's testimony from Julie Royce article, the article doesn't exist. It vaporizes like 90% of her article is the testimony of the wife, which I'm not necessarily saying is true or untrue, but she she characterizes it like this is established fact that anybody can go back and say, well, of course, we need this apparently, we don't know apparently a jury, right, right, found found the wife's testimony on some things to be compelling. Right. And that's part of that's part of what I'm gonna fill you in on here. If we're innocent until proven guilty, then right, you know, we can assume that he's guilty, I think, right? Can't we? I mean, well, I assume that yeah, because because nobody ever nobody ever has a conviction overturned, do they? That's what they said, like, you know, well, yeah, OJ was found innocent. So I guess he must not have done it, right? I mean, it's provable fact now. It's like, okay, let's not get out over our skis. But she leaves she leaves out a couple important things. Number one, number one, the husband maintains his innocence on the sex abuse charges to this day. He says, I didn't do that. And there was no physical evidence that he did. That was another part of the part of the red flag for me was there's no evidence of this. And I realize it in a lot of these kind of cases. You know, especially when that when the accusations come to light with children years down the road, there can't be any physical evidence. But it's something that readers probably should have been aware of the other the other part of this other than something that it's something that women and mothers should be aware of. Yeah. Can I just, hey, Julie Royce, let me just really tick you off. It's the mom's fault that this happened if this actually happened. Yeah, that's the mom's role. Yeah, protect the kids. Right. How did she not know I, I don't know. I mean, I don't want to re adjudicate, but she definitely bears some responsibility. And there's some patriarchy for you lady. Yeah, I just wasn't. That ain't going to go in. It's, it's absurd. Unfortunately, I've heard it all before. The idea that did you, did you see the something I think was last week, there were pictures of some warnings signs put up at Cedarville University on the mirrors. No, the ladies, you know, it was basically in the ladies dress room, it said something to the effect, have I done anything to, you know, make my, make my boyfriend think we should, you know, we, we do things that we had agreed not to do. And it's just absurd. Yeah. The idea that a person who gets raped, it's somehow their fault because of how they dressed or whatever they is, is horribly offensive. Yeah. And the, that it's her fault because she didn't protect her kids when you've got a whole church structure telling her not to protect her kids. Basically, because they're making her go into a, an unsafe situation. They're not, they're not supporting her. They're not giving her a safe place to go to, to, to escape or to at least, where could she go? Where did they provide for her to go to to be safe? Why they tried to work things out. You know, they didn't, they just said go back and have faith. Yep. Yep. You suffer for Christ. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with having faith, but I, you, you can't, it's that kind of counseling, which is not, not the stuff at all. It's not biblical counseling. It's not the little counseling that I was familiar with. And the, to treat people, to treat victims of crimes as though they're the ones, if it hadn't been for you, this wouldn't have happened. Well, that's patently false. Yeah. And then you, you downplay the, the role of, you know, and it's not that he was just found guilty. Right. He was found guilty and convicted. He was sentenced to 21 years to life. Yes. I was a police in a long time. I understand how that part of it works. You don't, you don't get a sentence like that if there's any doubt in the judge's mind as to what happened. And you don't get your parole denied, you know, for another 10 years. If you've been a good person and especially if you've been a good person in prison. Right. So there's whatever, whatever's gone on with that. I mean, he, he's a bad person. Like I said, he's exactly where he belongs and it's not her fault in the least. It's the church's fault for not stepping in and giving her good counsel and getting her protected. She put her faith in that church and that church to let her down. Yeah, exactly. Yes, he did. I was, remember, I reminded you of this story and I'll just share it with the, with the viewers here. Ironically, you know, we were talking before the live and I mentioned to you a report of John MacArthur warning Moody years ago regarding James McDonald because of James McDonald's behavior and things of that nature and his endorsing and supporting people who are heretics and all of that. John MacArthur refused to attend the event that was hosted by Moody because he said that quote, the conflicts James need to resolve involves serious concerns that other, others besides me have raised about his character and doctrine and involves charges against him from people who are or have been part of his ministry. And this was an email conversation between him and I believe it was Jerry Jenkins, I believe it was. Yeah, Jerry Jenkins from left behind series. And so they had a conversation back in 2000, I believe in 13. Yes, 2013 was Father's week's conference. And John MacArthur said if James White, I mean, James White, if James McDonald, excuse me, was it was in attendance that he would not attend the conference. He did not want to have anything to do with the conference if he was going to be there. And I told you, and I mentioned to you, Dr. Swanson, I found it'd be rather ironic that people can attend the master's or to contend the attend the shepherds conference every year, knowing what John MacArthur is, his sex, his his abuse scandals that he has been protecting pedophiles. He's been texting child molesters and wife beaters. And he's been doing this for decades protecting these men. And people still go to the conferences, they still, you know, defend him to this very day. But ironically, he didn't he didn't want to be involved to be a part of any ministry or any conference of any function that involved a man whose character and doctrine, he said, has helped with his concern. Yeah, well, you know, you can you can use the broken clock analogy. Yes, even broken clocks right twice a day. That's right. It's but you're right. I mean, it's covered up. The two people who should have two on the pastoral staff who otherwise would have been probably convicted of failing to make proper reports, except that the statute of limitation and run out on it because they covered it up. And my opinion, sure, is churches and church staff should not be exempt from mandatory laws. Amen. There is there is nothing, nothing biblical. There is nothing. If you become aware of it, the church has a higher responsibility for the community for the safety of the community than one soul that they'll be able to work with later. Yeah. You've got to protect other people, especially children, women and the widows and orphans. How many times does the New Testament talk about? Come on, brother. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And even if it was not even if it was not a part of the law, the Bible makes it clear that we are to do unto others that we will have them do unto us with the love our neighbor as I said, how would you feel if someone had the ability and the power to protect you and take care of you or, you know, speak on your behalf and they didn't, you know, so the principle is clear. And like you said, they refused to submit themselves to the authority of the scriptures and then they tried to hide behind legal technicalities to protect their own corrupt ministry. And I consider it, I consider it to be corrupt. And I believe in closing Dr. Swanson that we should not let up on sounding the alarm as much as we possibly can because, you know, we have individuals and people that are, I mean, if they're not encouraged by what we're doing or they feel that they don't have a voice, then it's even more of a defeating battle. And then you have now individuals that are in positions of leadership and have positions and platforms and they're not saying anything. They're not saying a word. And you had another case at the college where a girl was raped at the college. And instead of the proper title, nine reports being made and things like that, the church stepped in and took the whole counseling thing away from the college completely inappropriate. And then in the counseling session, you know, they put them both together in the same room and the girl was made to apologize to the rapist for, you know, enticing him. The counselors are fortunate this is not my daughter. And again, so what do you say? And I'll just ask this question. And I've asked every guest that I've had on the platform and on the broadcast, would you go to Grace Community Church if Eileen Gray were your daughter? Absolutely not. Oh, I mean, would I go attend the church? Right, would you attend Grace Community Church if Eileen Gray were your daughter knowing what you know about the church and its abuse scandals and things of that nature? No, and I would, and I would, you know, sell my last pair of shoes to pay for legal counsel to soothe them into a boulevin. So it would not be just me. It's both of us. And I think it's every real man that would have the mentality. And even if it were, even if it weren't not my daughter, I believe if I'm aware of abuse or mistreatment of a fellow image bearer, you know, I would not want anything to do with that ministry or those who defend or support them. And I'm pretty sure you had resonated with you and you were probably affirming the same thing as well. Yeah, the idea that, and people knew this at the church, the idea that money that they were putting in the offering plate somehow was going to David Gray in person would just infuriate anyone who was paying attention to life. Yeah. But of course, they don't remember the people can't see the books. So yeah, that just wants any final words, any words of exhortation, any words of encouragement to those who are maybe who may watch this who have gone through abuse, who was struggling trying to find answers to these things and maybe have a hard time trusting the church as to what they've gone through. Any words of encouragement? You know, God is there for all of it. And that sounds right. But there are good people out there. They're good counselors. There are good churches that will put their arm around you and help. And don't despair of getting help. Don't despair of getting on the other side of it. So some things take a long time. When I was an LA policeman, I killed someone in the line of duty. And that took a while to get over. Because it's, you know, it was a, you know, clear cut their way. He would shoot on me, so I killed all of them. He would shoot back. But it's still that's a that's a big thing. And to be a victim of crime, to especially abuse, especially children and wives who are abused by a husband or someone who was supposed to take care of them, a father or a parent. It's a long time to get over and it's not, you know, it's more than, you know, hear, you know, memorize these three verses and go pray and it'll all be better tomorrow. Life doesn't work that way. Right. That's right. I wonder, you know, I don't think, I don't think Job got over all of the things that happened to him, maybe his whole life. Amen. You definitely get over those 10 kids he lost. That's for sure. Well, exactly, exactly. And so it's a, but there are people out there to help and there are people who will, you know, put their arm around you and give you the support and counsel and help that you need that that's biblical and safe and solid. Amen. Amen. Any, any, if someone wanted to get in contact with you or reach out to you, how could he, how could he do so if you would like to, you could put my email address up. It's NOUS56 at iCloud.com. I, I'm going to be traveling. I'm in Florida right now with my, at my son's house and I'm going to be traveling starting Sunday for a while and going out to California and see my mom. Oh wow. That's good. So NOUS56. Oh, duh. I'm sorry. Let me delete that. Scratch that, y'all. Scratch that. NOUS. See there. Oh my goodness. NOUS56 at iCloud.com. All right. Here we go. This is, this is the updated version right there. Yep. You got it. There it is. All right. Now this wants to thank you so much, sir, for your time and, and, and even going out of your way to, to have this interview. I pray that people will be blessed and encouraged by this. I believe that it will definitely resonate with many and, and maybe even challenge a lot of us who, who are sitting on the fence regarding the subject of abuse, of abuse and confronting it within our churches. So God's blessings to you and your family. Have a safe weekend. And Dr. Swanson, I'll be talking to you again soon. Good. And, and, and blessings on you Seiko and your ministry and the channel and all of the things that you're, the people that you're able to reach and see that I, I, you know, and with what I do, I, I would never be able to have the impact that you have with your podcasts and your, and your YouTube channel. So Lord's blessings on you for all the good work you do. Thank you, sir. Have a blessed one. Take care. Yes, sir. Right now. All right, y'all. That is another, another live racquet up. Put it in the books. Dr. Dennis Swanson, he came in, definitely laid it down. And this one is encouraged to, to have him on the, the broadcast. And so again, brothers and sisters, ladies and gentlemen, again, let's make sure we encourage each other, make sure that we are holding each other accountable in the areas that God has called us to do. Coming alongside those who need a, he needed an ear, need an hearing, need someone to be able to talk to. You never know what people go through. You never know what people go through, especially, especially in these days. And so just, just make sure that we are doing what the Lord has commissioned and, and called us to do so. So I thank God, I thank God for another, for another great live. I really do. Yeah. Yeah. How does there more have a problem without the Swanson when he obviously doesn't know him? Yeah. I mean, that's the point. And that's the reason why he didn't want to, he couldn't come up. He, he, there's no way. There's no way. Again, meet, meet always runs from meat grinders always. So, but again, just wanted to make sure everyone was able to be a part of this, this stream. And again, thank you, those of you who have, who have held this down in the, in the, in the, in the chats. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Nick. I appreciate it. So thank you. Appreciate it. Yes. It starts with news. News 56 at iCloud.com. iCloud.com. That is the, that is the email. Later too, my sister. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. But yeah, so we are, we are done for tonight. Um, Lord willing, um, see how things go for the weekend and we'll, we'll be live again if the Lord says the same, but I'm not really sure yet, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna just test the wind and see what, uh, see what blows. All right. But anyway, again, please like, subscribe and share these, uh, this, this channel, this information we do appreciate it. If you would be so kind and doing so, uh, it helps us to get the word out, make sure that people are able to, um, know about our channel. Love life and marriage with the woods as well. My wife will be, uh, having her series of videos. Ladies, I hope you have been encouraged and blessed by, uh, the video, uh, that my wife laid out and dropped on yesterday regarding menopause. And so if you have not gone over to the love life and marriage channel, please go over there and, uh, first like it, subscribe, share it. I'm pretty sure that there are others like yourself that need to hear this information. And so we do appreciate that. Thank you so, so very much. And also BCV merchandise. You can see that ticker across the screen. Um, this is how we are able to, uh, be supported. And we do thank all of you for your, your love and tangible expressions of, uh, of support. So anyway, that is my time. Ladies and gentlemen, I do thank you all so much for yours. You all have a great day, great evening, great weekend. Y'all know the drill, whatever you do, do all to learn out of God. God bless.