 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend Jason Edwards of prologix practice pads Jason welcome. Hey Bart Thank you for having me. I appreciate it very much for sure It's good to have another Ohio guy here always. That's right Yeah, so I think this is neat because I think everyone in the drum world is aware of prologix They know how you know great. They are in the quality, but maybe people don't know that it's That you're you have a 20 year old company, which is quite the accomplishment. Well, thank you It's thankful to have made it this far 20 years. We're celebrating. Yes 20 years this year. We started in 2001 Yeah Interesting that was a crazy time here in America kind of like now I mean you have the 2001 in September was obviously I know there was a lot of on other episodes I've heard about shortages of supplies and things like that after 9-11. So I don't know if that Affected you but that's kind of a heavy way to start the episode right well back then we were very small obviously I was just the one-man operation and Because I was teaching a lot during the week and playing on the weekends So really how this began was a need For a better practice pad in feel because I spent so much time Studying all the master hand technicians Yeah of the past and of the day and I felt the need that they're Just need to be a better surface to it that I could enjoy practicing on you know, so yeah, I started researching different materials and just You know began putting things together from sourcing things out of in the local community of Akron Which is the old rubber capital of the world. I didn't know that You have good year you have good rich all the tire companies Wow are based interesting and Akron at the time We're known for our our pigs here is this was pork oppalus here in Cincinnati Back in the day. So I want to say too that like just overarching is I mean we're gonna talk about them But your time with Jim Chapin is is very important which which we'll talk about so people are Chapin fans With the molar technique we're gonna get to that too, but I want to back up a little bit and when you're teaching lessons and stuff What were some of the practice pads that were you were using? Like what was the problem that needed to be solved? What did you find early on that was that was like, you know material shape all that stuff that was you were liking Yeah, so in our lesson rooms. They were all like I first off I taught at a An amazing drum shop was called Zampino's drum shop in North Canton, Ohio was founded by Phil Zampino of Canton, Ohio Yep, and we had an amazing group of people there taught lessons and it was a great hang amazing environment a great experiences and What we had in our lesson rooms were you know back then the standard remote pad, which was the tunable Great practice pad and the rims would always Weren't very durable. They would chip away the pad with loose tension And it just was like you're eventually playing on a on us I don't know like a dead piece of material after a while a sure soft You know pillow type of thing and you needed some rebound to practice your buzz strokes Yep and all the fundamentals of this of strokes and Different velocities that we use. I thought that was important to provide that and offer that in a practice pad Also at the time there was the the real feel pad. We had some of those throughout our practice studios as well There was a good eight. I'd say eight lesson rooms Studio rooms if you call them with two kits set up in each room and pad stations throughout Zampino's A lot of students would come through the door And I was teaching Every day probably 45 students 50 students a week Wow, how old were you at that point? I took lessons there From probably eighth grade on Uh, my teacher eventually left when I was just almost out of high school. And so I Was offered to take over for him Wow and teach. Uh, so I was You know 18 at the time Nice and then I taught there ever since probably to 2012 Cool 25, you know such plus years Nice if that worked out, right? So Anyways, yeah, you know having those pads in those rooms and just kind of seeing the wear and the tear They were getting all the time and wanted to create something that was durable And that we all enjoyed practicing on and it was great because we had a lot of amazing teachers there I could whatever I was coming up with I would bring it in and share it with the teachers And get their feedback, you know and start start that way But those were some of the products, you know, they existed at the time You know before there were even Other brands that are today today the the practice pad market Is quite extensive and sure Yeah, which is awesome. But it's uh, it's a lot of a lot of brands out there So there are that's true with most of the yeah, and that's true with a lot of the drum world is it's not There's a lot more. I guess it's because you know Manufacturing and stuff people can do it more and experiment and it's gotten easier for people to get into the market Or maybe globally it's gotten Easier for different countries to to have pads come in But that's so cool that you you saw it and you did it. So so you're a pretty young guy at that point I like you said you're you're in your garage. You're out there building these these experimenting with materials and that's amazing So really I I started tinking around with products in 1996 to be honest. I was selling drum pad mutes. We had all back then, you know, the uh, real fuel drum mutes that laid on top your drums They were kind of they would wear through pretty rapidly So we used the material on top and they were blue. We you know sold those as drum mutes just in the shop Another product that I actually made back then too was a dowel rod sticks The hot rod sticks came out at that time and I felt that They needed to be rounded on the dowel rods on the ends and things So I would had a little sanding machine I would sand all the edges of them round them off package them together and sell them on a drum shop But the pads were the really their primary became the primary Obviously product line for pro projects At the time. Yeah, were you prologix from the beginning with that name? Was that just something was that you already did you go through some different names and stuff like that? That's a great question Yes, you go through many names. Um, yeah, I wouldn't say many but several lives. We had chops percussion That was my first in 1996, you know, but it was like, well, that's that's a general Name we need to maybe think of something else. I had image to percussion Like I'm mostly the word image with the number two kind of Yeah, you know 90s Um branding And I thought well, I want something that needs to be timeless and so professional and logical As far as the two words coming together and I created prologix with an x on the end And that's how prologix name came about and then we trademarked that in 2001 Wow, yeah so, um All right, so then uh, now let's also help me with the timeline here. Um Uh You said you were experimenting with the practice pad in 1996. Um, but And I know you created an awesome you and andrew capicello who works with prologix Who is a friend and who's been great and he suggested uh mark riley for a tattoo uh drum episode, which was great Right, um, but I've got on your timeline that you basically started in 1999 with, uh, mr. jim chapelle and You my friend, uh, we have a mutual friend barry james who's a great teacher who has said that you and I've heard I think I heard you play a little bit at pasac doing that kind of like practice Pat like you had your little booth set up in the the lesson area Barry says you are really one of the finest students. He's ever had as a player. Um, well, so I appreciate that very much. Yeah, it's so on that note You learned a lot from jim chapelle and you are a ambassador to his technique and all that stuff. So um Obviously you hadn't really incorporated you hadn't become prologix at that point but i'm sure you were like you said tinkering with um practice pads, but Why don't you talk a little bit about the parallel of you working with mr. chapelle and um And also kind of I feel like simultaneously you were creating your own brand, right? So how did that go? lessons with jim Yeah, so I was studying out of the advanced concepts For the modern drummer book by jim chapelle and in the back of the book Was a phone number And just with this with his address and everything I was like, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna call him up I'm sure Why not? It's here's his phone number So I I make a call his wife answered the phone at the time and um, I introduced myself I Asked if he was going to be coming through ohio anytime soon and she said let me put him on the phone for you And so we spoke and he actually put me in contact with the manager of his who lived at national At the time. I can't remember what his name was unfortunately But what jim did was we Had him come visit and take or give lessons At sam pinows And so when he was doing that he was actually staying with me At my house and we I would just constantly kind of pick his brain and ask him questions Boy, is he a great storyteller? amazing Memory and he would tell stories of from buddy rich to gene krupa to I'm sure we've all heard a lot of that before from Dom's Conversations as well. Yep, and that was a great episode check that out. Yeah. Thank you go back and listen to that yeah And so I was always fascinated with hand technicians and He was one that I saw him, you know on the speed power control and endurance video Which I still have today the ph s tape I really wore that tape out so What I would do is I would be up late at night after my lessons with the pads downstairs and just Running that video and working on the hand technique and and rewind it play it again rewind it play it again Stop it I would slow down Work on the motions that he was explaining And just really watch myself and pay attention To the detail of the stroke and the motion and the flow that happens When you're working and you know practicing this molar method that he taught and so By you know just doing that I thought well, that's why I called that number and jim came to town few times, you know and taught at the drum shop and He always had out most of these the outfit was a white shirt and green jade pants usually But he would have on and he would have cigars coming out of his pocket, you know, it's like smoke cigars Yeah, but anyway a great gentleman true gentleman excellent amazing educator and musician And at his age I was watching him play. I'm just like whatever he's doing is working and It's really working well and he doesn't have any You know injury or anything wrong with his hands and he's just able to keep up and keep going and so I feel that that's what I really need to focus on And so I just spent hours and hours and hours and years a couple years Back and forth with him. He would come, you know, every maybe for three years To the shop and and we would just still catch up tell stories go over the same hand methods and So through that at that time I was making these pads and I was making them there and a non a gun And I wanted him to try one and let me know what he thought of it because obviously he's a hand expert and understands the What it takes to to practice and I want him to give me some feedback on what I was coming up with So I had a practice pad. It was double-sided I still have one here one of the first ones I made Um, I had him sign it as well for inspiration just to stare at it all the time And I gave him one to take with him and I said here you take this enjoy it and appreciate everything And it was a natural rubber top From Akron that I this place I would go and buy the rubber material from MDF nine-sided the reason I chose nine Was because a snare basket has three arms and so That's smart. I wanted it to fit snugly in the snare stand. That was something else that I didn't see too many Other pads did it were you know back in the day able to do Because other pads would be hexagons octagons deca-gons. And so but not the non a gun I don't think I've ever said non a gun in my life, but uh You got that you're the non a gun guy That's right. So what I did is I I I gave him the pad and I just you know in travels he would uh He was obviously a real feel actually endorser at the time I asked him if he wanted to be a prologix endorser But he wasn't able to to do that but he did accept the pad as a gift and went on his way and we would see each other quite often at basic every year and We would hang out and literally again just kind of trying to pick his brain seeing what he's doing with his hands He would introduce me to people Um, and then often at night we would go up to his he's like let's go up to the room You know and we'd go up to his room and I'd have some other friends with me Colleagues from the drum shop and we would all go up to this hotel room and sit around And he would get the pad out. He was actually One of these times we did that he put the real feel pad down reached in his suitcase and pulled out the pad that I made Nice and I was like, what are you doing with that? He's like, well, I like this one better Oh boy, and so I was like wow and I just had kind of goosebumps on the back of my neck Well, sure. Why do you like it better? It's like I just enjoy playing on this one more And I feel it has great rebound and you really need to do something with this with these pads you're making Hmm, and I thought All right. Well I that's the man that tells me that I that's and you know, he knows what he's talking about and I'm gonna See it through to see what I can do with this and so I founded the name prologics and We started making practice pads and I would sell them at zampino drum shop to my students and some of the teachers there would then start Selling them to their students And then we would just go from there through other shops, maybe in Ohio, columbus percussion They're still working with them a great dealership and jim rub and the family so And it just little by little i'm thankful for You want to grow a business and when you're growing something from the ground up you can't just Think you're gonna sell thousands and thousands of products right away It takes patience. It takes time It takes a lot of effort and sacrifices Dedication and dedication Now let me ask you though. So while you're so when you're at the moment where jim is pulling out of his bag and going I like yours kid Were you selling them at that point or were you more like giving him to like, you know Like like almost like a door-to-door salesman kind of like hey check this out. This is my pad or Did you have more than like Two made. I mean, what was your like production level at that point was it garage and you know Yeah, so it was still basically essentially the garage. I would have you know a facility was die cutting the material out I had I was doing the woodwork if I was cutting those out by hand With the jigsaw sanding the edges um, you know finishing the product gluing them together um Basically putting him in a poly bag at the time and selling him at the shop Um, wow that later turns into okay. Well, I can't Keep up with all this right now and do the the work eventually as things started growing through local dealers and in the state and then Outside of that by carrying this around at PASIC and trying to you know get business through as the internet was coming along Who on the internet had shops, you know, what what drum shops were creating e-commerce sites I need to go talk to those people So through that that's how the business began to grow even more But in doing so you have to start to outsource but didn't have a CNC router in house I didn't have a die cutting machine in house And you know assembly team so you have to outsource your product and raw materials For others to do but at a quality High quality that is and deliver it to you and and Trust and and those are things that are very important In developing a business and growing it from the ground up, but again I want to just stress to do it Slowly take your own pace at it Because I was teaching I was playing I was doing other things. It wasn't like I just said hey I'm gonna I started the business. I founded it but I had to You know paying my bills by teaching and playing and not by Selling practice paths at that time. Yeah, I'm like today. It's reverse, but for sure And I'm thankful for that But yeah, that was um at the time, you know with meeting Jim You know and having him come to visit and and and do those things it was It was important To move forward with that and then seek out the the outsourcing to make it take it to the next level I mean, it's it's reassuring you want your I don't want to say like your idol That's not the word I'm looking for but he probably was your idol mentor mentor. There you go to to say Because he'd probably be honest and go this is this doesn't feel right. This doesn't I don't like this Maybe you should you know, you're a great player stick with that right, but he didn't he said this is good you should stick with it because um it's come up in pretty much most of the teacher episodes where The really the really great teachers are honest and they don't you know Um pat you on the back too much and go you're doing great even though you're not so it seems like Jim would His honesty when when they are honest and it's good. It's it means more You know what? I mean like it's to be truthful and say this is awesome man. You're doing you're doing great um, so That's cool. And while we're on jim I uh on the timeline here you it says that he sat in um Hey on a band with you. Is that right? Yeah, so he was in town one of the years and uh, I was playing I played a gig in town in in kent, ohio I was playing with patrick sweeney band And we played every monday night for three years And also in the band at one time was uh dan arbach of the black keys, but we can yeah chime that a little later, but Yeah, so we were playing a gig and he asked me we get out of the car and he's like hey Is it okay if I bring my pad up because he carried it all the time. I mean we all know that you know so I said sure, you know just You can play in the back or if you want to do some stuff, but just kind of Watch when we're playing, you know a tune or something. So anyway, we're we're in the a slow blues just 12 8 Blues song and I'm playing the groove You know Do Also, and I can hear I'm like what the heck I look up and he's sitting at the front table up there with pat sweeney's dad showing him The mullers the mullers So Wow, we took a break and I said hey Hey jim. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said hey man. You gotta we gotta put that in the car, man I can look at he's like I go listen. Do you want to come up and play? He's like sure I said, okay, so he goes up and Did some of his tunes that he has a cd back then that I think real feel hq percussion put it out That's a lot of storytelling and some songs he did back then And so it fit the bill we had a there was just a three piece blues project That we were doing so he just said hey, you know playing this key We'll do this and he's saying and we're in a college learning kent, you know, his college is packed Yeah, like all every monday and the people went crazy When he was singing and did a drum solo and I let him he did a couple songs And it was amazing time. I'll never forget that. Uh, yeah, my dad went to kent Um, nice. I think for a year he went to kent and then went to back to uc to since university since night of here, but um Yeah, wow, that's awesome, man. It's funny. You had to be like, okay, put the pad away right So he's always, you know always that was him. That's jim. He's always carrying that pad around pair of sticks just like I can play it right-handed. I can play it left-handed, you know That he would play the book And do things with the right hand right cymbal time then he would play the right cymbal time on the left hand And do the same thing and I was like, wow, I gotta work on that. So Yeah, well and One thing you said earlier real quick is just with the whole molar technique that jim obviously is kind of a great You know spokesman for is you said, you know, he's he's clearly he's playing. He's older, but he's playing great It makes me think of what dom talked about where you know He molar himself was taught by these civil war vets and that whole story of how these guys are like 90 years old and they're still you know Playing great ripping snare solos. So I guess that's a big part of the technique is not overexerting yourself which jim clearly Had figured out right. Yeah, exactly. Um As I said, I his hands were very strong and they were always relaxed He had a relaxed, you know method of playing and I just really wanted to be Dive deep into that and and see what he was up to and then also other things that he was working on he was always writing and having ideas creativeness and We kept in touch, you know for a long time until his passing um, so it was uh You know, I'm glad I was able to be oh, yeah in the timeline there on that. So what a great gentleman Yeah, so um, all right where we left off with prologix though was uh, you were selling the pads At the drum shop um in akron, correct. It's in north camp. Okay north camp and um, but You obviously Grew from there. So what was the next step in the You know because I like this because it's almost like you could insert any company and it's kind of a cool like Like it's not overnight like you said you have to go out and do the the groundwork So it's neat to hear how you kind of stepped it up a little bit and became you know, the really awesome successful pads You are now so you go from door to door salesman Selling at the drum shop telling your students they have to buy them right and then uh, where do you go from there? Yes, really, it's all about networking. So I would go and tend basic every year Sometimes the nam show always have a pad with me Because I always saw Jim carrying his around. So I was like, you know what I want people to know about What prologix products are I'm gonna carry one under my arm and I'm gonna carry it out I had a bag That I made back then for it with a like a stick bag on the outside But I would just actually put more stuff in that and to carry around the day and just carry the pad out in the open because after it was a nine-sided pad I started making it round and um what I also did was There was a point in time where I felt there needed to be a rim of some kind on the pad And I had some sheet rubber actually made into strips like slit Like spaghetti noodles or you know, Thai noodles, whatever Whatever noodle whatever noodle you're into and noodling around so yeah I stood up the I stood this piece of material up and I was like, yeah, it's gonna work. That's gonna so I would glue the Cut it to length Glue the ends together stand it up and I made a rim And I just glued that around the outside of the of the rubber material That was the main surface. And so that was what I was You're carrying around around 2002 that that started And it was called a logix pad. So we started calling that a logix pad now the nine-sided one We called that a startix pad Everything heck I'm gonna start with the x here at the end So the startix pad was the nine-sided pad and the logix pad was round with the rim and what I also did When we had the nine-sided pad in 2001 we back up here We put stand notches in the base of the wood So the snare basket would grab the pad hit those counterpoints Some of the three notches were so when we made it to a round base I kept the notches And they were all cnc now the woods being cnc machined Baltic birch we're using bulk birch now At this time because I wanted to have something that was strong and With stand a drop or you know because a lot of the pads then were Outer coated or just mdf or particle board Things of that nature. So we wanted something to have durability, but also it created tone When you played on it because of being applied Baltic birch and it was about we were using three-quarter inch at the time One other point with that is that drums drum shells have our applies. So I wanted it to Kind of look like a drum shell from the side But the plied construction So what we did is it like again, I would carry this around find Dividers that were at PASIC that were e-commerce Very driven at the time and make relation create relationships pass out my car show them the pad let them try it out And you know a little by little they were to order some pads here and there three here six here and eventually I had pads going around to all the top Drum shops in in the country back then I we had there was a system called the five-star drum shops Uh, which was like top-level drum shops a kind of a community group that they created And zampinos was part of that columbus percussion was part of that and a lot of other famous shops throughout the country Were part of this group at the time. So I was actually trying to Access and get into those shops as well because I knew they were premier Drum shops of that at the time a small mom and pop shops more or less Um, that was my main focus there and again just making you know getting into the e-commerce because I knew that what change was happening and you have to be able to Go with the times and change and make it that adapts to the environment you know, so Uh, what that said, that's that's how we started to To grow as as far as into a dealership network, you know Yeah, it's ending these trade shows. It's very which really important It's important and it speaks to your quality because especially in that five-star circle, which is pretty cool. It's like the uh The inner, you know, I feel like we're getting the inside scoop on this circle of uh, drum shops Right, like they're not going to bring in a product that's falling apart or peeling or You know the glue is coming off. So You don't go to the table with an inferior product Well, it all comes down to trust, you know And so by them physically seeing the product at the show and meeting me in person I was able to build establish that trust factor and You know, they they took it into their shops and Passed that on to their students and same things so they grow from there This episode is brought to you by dream symbols dream symbols creates b20 and truly hand hammered symbols for today's working drummer Each handcrafted symbol has a warmth that draws you in at low volumes Yet thunders with beautiful overtones when leaned into and opened up These symbols come alive with an explosive attack But have undertones that are warm rich and dark each one has a unique complex voice that will help you define your personal sound The symbols speak clearly at all dynamic levels and sit comfortably and easily blend in any mix Head over to dream symbols dot com or at dream symbols on instagram and find out what your dream sounds like today You were talking about e-commerce now in 2002 Ish around their early 2000s was like musicians friend and stuff like that like were you on like the major Distribution like you know big big websites like that at that point yet not yet that comes later But we'll get we'll get to that That's around 2014 actually when Guitar center becomes a partner God they I mean I think of being 2001 2002 like I was pretty young. I was like 11 or 12 years old and they um Uh and going to guitar center all the time but boy that circle of you know five star drum shops must have really been You know feeling the burn from guitar center in those days that must have been kind of a big topic of How do we keep this massive shop which now Guitar center is in trouble. You know and it's changed but talk about that Yeah Yeah, that's why I'm getting ahead of ourselves. So that's okay. That's okay. Um, so yeah I want to talk about that a little bit But yeah, just from being at the again sampino drum shop being a small mom and pop shop You know, even though we had a lot of inventory and a lot of students base Were threatened by at the time, you know from these musicians friend and guitar center because we had customers coming in and they were always price comparing and Hey, can you I got the catalog can you beat this price? Hey, can you do this and we would often match that or beat it even because you know, we we needed the business and They would come to us To tune drums and stuff like that back then, you know, they get their stuff. So personal customers, you know, we wanted to You know keep that acquisition Um, yeah, for sure. But yeah, it moving forward. Uh, I just want to talk about let's go into 2004 here And so now what we're doing is we have the logics pad. We have the rim We're gonna now recess the rim into the wood And so what we you know, we have cnc milled groove that the rim now would set in to be and to make more strength and strong and you know, let Uh, reside into the base for rim shots and cross sticks and things like that. And you're doing so Um, russ miller I want to talk about russ because russ was also From zampino's drum shot back in the day. He was a student and so through his Travels and coming through town and doing clinics. I spoke with him about hey, would you like to be involved? And how can we work together? And I wanted to create a pad at that time like for brush playing So how can we I want to make a pad that you can play brushes on and sticks Because there was nothing like that Out there and he's like, that's a great idea. Let's do that. You know, so we Kind of put our heads together and came up with some different materials where we would also have a mute that laid inside the pads so you had a natural rubber surface a rim A blue at the time these it was a red surface And the surface that laid inside that was quiet mute was blue And we had a fiber skin surface that we that I purchased from rimo and they were inking prologics on it And that was our that's your texture for the brush to get a little right That was the first texture and today we used our own technology White textured surfaces, but first I think 150 pads and rust signed all these surfaces Cool fiber skin to ship them to him and he shipped them back and that's how we got the all-in-one pad started That was called the all-in-one It still is today And the all-in-one was a very is a very unique pattern. It's one of our best sellers to this day from 2004 And wow what we also what I wanted to do that that pad was also have it sit on top of a snare drum So it's got a 14 inch hoop groove that's milled out underneath so A lot of pads, you know get sit on top of the drum And you're actually playing the drum then you're playing the stand and so on so by resting it on the hoop provides solid rebound and your you know Strokes come back that's a more natural way And you also get that subtly of the snare response underneath the drum you can adjust the snare wires And because the drum pad is just hovering above the drum head Wow, so With that pad we won best and show at NAM 2013 Cool Nine years later and also we won best and show for 2016 at NAM show Or our pad collection our resistance training series At that time man that had to feel just like awesome to win that I mean to win best and show at NAM Yes, you must have been happy One time Yeah, one of those years I didn't attend the meeting because again, it was just me and my other employee We were just in the booth and somebody came by and was like hey congratulations on best and show I was like, what'd you say? And so like wow all right and they brought the award by you know later in the afternoon so very thankful for that just You know goes to show they could anything you can Put your mind to and it can make make it happen and I'm proud to Have received that type of award which helped us in advertising and getting into some more shops too Also, I want to say by while attending the NAM show. I would like to think His name was Terry loose and he had a company called power wrist builders And they were weighted drumsticks. I'm sure most people listening They've seen Terry and in the day and understand what these these sticks were and he needed pads that were able to withstand these these weighted sticks And they were a different diameter and different weights and you would just use them on the pad only And so he approached me one day about Using prologix pads in the booth And I want to the reason I think reach out to us like do commemorate him what for this because and Make awareness of Terry's because he invited me to bring Pads to NAM. It didn't I offered to pay for part of the booth and everything And he's like don't worry about it. Just just bring some pads and you can set up here put your banner up here Wow, and by doing so, that's what helped us get into the international market really. So I Nice, you know, Terry's not with us anymore But I just wanted to mention him and and give thanks to Terry loose man. That's awesome I mean you took the opportunity and you seized it and you went right Yeah, let's talk about the international thing because there's a lot of drummers all over the world Yeah, so our first international distributors to japan that's pad corporation and he's a great guy buys You know a good amount of pads every year He's a great customer to work with And he's distributes those into the, you know, Japanese market From there we had Italy We we work with that's omap And omap distributes star pads in Italy all probably since 2000 I want to say 12 And Japan since 2010 And so I'm very fortunate to have that and you know As time has gone on and you go to NAMM and I did that again with Terry We're probably a couple years until I established, you know, was able to finance my own booth And I just start off small, you know with the small booth and just go there and be there and and Represent your brand and your product and believe in What you're doing Yeah, for sure One of the years that Terry would have in the booth at the time, uh, Louis Belson Was when he was alive Was also in the booth because their his wife was there selling his records, you know So I was like he's standing there playing in the past here comes Louis. They're like, oh, hey, how you doing? So It was pretty cool He's a big Rimo guy though. So I wonder if he was like, I'm not I'm not allowed to like your pads I have to like Rimo Yeah, you get that a lot like from through the all the years, you know Everybody would be a different company and they would stop by still and check out your stuff and Tell you what they thought of your products and they enjoyed it and but You know things they were obviously endorsed with other brands, which is fine But I just like to get the feedback from everybody because that's how you continue to create and develop sure Other products, you know, that's yeah, and Louis famously a nice guy. Um, so I'm sure he was very complimentary and loved it Oh, yeah, he was a true gentleman as well. Just like Jim um, so that's How, you know, the the NAMM show is a is a great opportunity to to build your international business As far as that goes and you know, make sure though when you're doing that and you're ready for that stage And that you can deliver the product because that's A whole other level besides the the us here in domestic Um, so being able to keep it the orders moving to them and delivering your raw materials and all these things together your suppliers who you trust your suppliers, so um, you know, that's just some important facts as as you're growing that Uh international side of your business Yeah, because man, you're got you've got shipping. I'm sure that the level of uh, I'm sure the level of stress went up a little bit from making a nonagon pad in your garage When you're dealing with people in japan In Italy So, uh, I'm sure it was a you're you're a businessman at that point. Well, what that said. Yeah, I totally agree um, if I was around 2000 What's nine and ten like I was saying but with that What was interesting that they were interested in was these other pad surfaces that I kind of came up with just by Putting things together that we were already using As far as materials and that's going to be our red storm and our blue lightning surfaces and so What the red storm is is it's it's a a dual density Pad technology mean there's two layers of material So back then on the bottom of our pads and most pads today. It's like a soft open cellular rubber or anti-skid surface. Well I kind of just laid while I was building pads one day I laid a piece of red material Rubber natural rubber gum rubber on top of the open cell rubber and I thought wow, this is interesting It's pretty soft. It's a it still has the the gum rubber feel but Maybe people like this. Maybe they won't I don't know Well, the only way to know is to create one again. I would bring it to the shop Ask the guys. Hey, what do you think of this? That's pretty cool You know, I like that at the bead gets of the stick gets absorbed into the material and the pad A little more gives you more of a realistic drum head surface Yeah, I said, okay, and then we had blue lightning, which is our I was layering Two pieces again of material to create a soft more of a low volume practice pad that we were going for and so With that, I mean the blue lightning and red storm those are two of our best sellers still to today You know today, which I've got the blue one. I've got the blue in my hand. I mean, they're I love that they're like, let's be honest here It makes you think of gym shape and playing a pad while you're sitting there with a band Pads can be loud. So you don't always want that that that that that that that that So really thinking of low volume pads is kind of important because it could be annoying Even if you're for other drummers, it's like, oh my god Like right well and small, you know, if you live in small living spaces apartments Yeah, your wife girlfriend family You know, uh kids babies like mark has here You know, you have to be making the baby shut up Get the low volume all right, so, you know having that, you know Put in the place by coming up with the red storm and blue lightning really kind of took us to another level and in the marketplace um, there was a lot of interest for that and that was Really introduced about 2006 But it wasn't I just wanted to mention that was something that when I went to nam at that time They haven't seen that before and that was something that grew great interest for our overseas customers So yeah next I want to talk about is the Uh the ostinato pad by johnny rab. This is 2010 now Johnny rab and I have known each other since 2002 similar to russ. I've known him 20 plus years as well and I met johnny at a he came to zampino's into the clinic and at the clinic after it was over I I said, hey, I'm making these pads. He went and check this out. So I gave him a pad. It was black red surface white rim and He was using it all the time and loved the pad And so we decided to create something called an ostinato pad because he had the freehand technique and all the other things that go with that and World records for best of singles and all that so I really admired johnny before his Entrepreneurship same with russ both of those guys are great business people entrepreneurial minded creatives And great musicians and drummers for sure as well, so What we wanted to do was create something that we could play ostinatos on And one was like a kit and a kit way and so we came up with the right and left side on a pad of ellipses The very first model I designed actually the ellipses popped in and out you could pop the It was a recessed wood Uh joint that allowed this to happen where you could flip it over and you actually had four surfaces that Wow change so it's a pretty interesting pad and I had some grooves in the One side almost like a guiro type of sound you could create because he was always a very forward Thinker in sounds and I wanted to Have something you know design in that way for him, but today the ellipses are are They don't move they're permanent and they're made of recycled material so you can play right and left hand symbol patterns or accent patterns and It's a great, you know great pad. It's called the ostinato pad. So That was launched in 2010 and Following that I want to talk about we started coming into the marching market And so at this time we start making a marching based practice pad and zone tenor pads They had recessed rims Um, we were the first company in the industry to put rims on tenor pads I just want to say that And going from there we didn't had our core pads for the for the marching world. They were laminated practice surfaces because they got to have that great articulation Today we don't use laminates anymore Uh, just because of the different stick beads and types the manufacturers that are out there I in my opinion. I feel that laminates Uh Always had to be replaced. They were expensive to work with Yeah, and so I wanted to create a surface that Or offer a surface that Didn't involve a laminate that you can still get that that feel from what we have right now is we call it vortex And vortex is a recycled rubber. It's about eight millimeters Gauge and thickness and it's for articulation has a light wax finish Um, and you can practice and build your chops on it. I'm not gonna say it's not super hard But it is hard the hardest surface we offer In our line We are working on other things as I speak That will be Uh offered in the marching industry soon And that's cool. I've been working on that for a couple years So a lot of things take time and I want to make sure whatever we put out Is always going to be something that is of value and Yeah, you know people to enjoy their practice experience. That's that's the main thing That's extremely clear with all of this Even with like the little notched bits where your snare, you know, you sit in your snare basket and all of this is like I think you are one of those people who thinks about the experience all the way through not like You know with the history of practice pads I feel like a lot of them were like take a strip of leather Glue it on to a piece of wood Tilt it up a little bit And go have fun, you know, like it's it's very um progressive and forward thinking it and the the marching Industry is obviously very uh, that's a that's a whole world with schools All that stuff. So I'm sure if you get into some of the schools, that's got to be a good Uh, good for business is to get is that how that works where like you would say like blank school, let's say university of Cincinnati I don't know that if they're a prologic school, but if it was like Yeah, we're all but we're gonna buy 400 of them now Is that typically how that works or is it up to the students to buy? Uh, it depends on the school system. So our education from prologists we We're looking to We'll build in a platform which will be A complement our educational products, you know and do like streaming and masterclass But as far as for schools go, we do have a education partner program that we offer You can see it on our website right now Where we where we actually do have Some colleges, you know, we're working with some high schools and things of that nature In which we provide them product, you know to put in their lesson rooms and facilities and I want to um We have joliet junior college and kent state university and usc thorton And we're actually we're just speaking with berkeley So nice where we will supply practice prads to the the lesson rooms and classrooms and we offer also some once Some promo codes for students to take advantage of to purchase pads and product direct from our website and support of them for education And the main community. Yeah, use what you use at school take it home use that And then you build those relationships for you know, they they're comfortable with it And then they become teachers and then they recommend it and right and all that stuff Well to add to that I do want to say just by talking about education and teachers and we're talking about practice pads I feel that most every Practice pad has been created by some form of educator or teacher in the industry Um true and so again because we're all creative thinkers Out there that want to build a better product, you know, because we're experiencing this product It could be sticks. It could be pads. It could be Drum heads or cymbal companies or Drum companies, you know all these things that people do within And within their entrepreneurial spirit to bring to the market Yeah, yeah, and you fit right in there. All right, so for the sake of time here Let's zoom forward just a little bit here and um kind of uh, you know Basically hit on how you I mean you guys grew a lot from that I think we were kind of around so you said you won best in show 2013 and I see 2016, but yes, let's sort of um Scooch forward and talk about How you became where we are today? Um, obviously hit on some key points along the way there. Yeah, sure One more thing with raw materials. I want to touch on and it's really helped us with our growth again is by creating our own recipe To practice on it's not we don't Just go to a source and buy Rubber off the shelf. It's all made You know custom. Oh cool. That's good to know to to the So that way you can you have the ultimate rebound feel buzz stroke, especially with like our green logic series I just want to mention that um, so we came out with that In 2017 And um, I just wanted to touch on that real quickly. Yeah for sure again some other things that Makes us different from what else is the the VST the variant surface training That's been a great success for us. Uh, that involves our red storm blue lightning and blackout pads that we sell today And all of this can be seen on youtube. We just did actually brand new product videos Nice within the last month. So please go check those out. I've been wanting to do that for a long time I'm very proud. You have to probably work there You can see all the construction and all the call outs are there Uh, our website is www prologicspercussion.com We're also on amazon And what I want to say is even with last year, um Being the year it was and thankful to Still have our business moving strong right now Everybody needed practice pad. We're all at home wondering. Maybe it's better, you know We were going to be doing So yeah, with that said, um, I I want to thank everyone out there who's purchased the prologics pad and Who are customers of ours? I really appreciate that and In value you as our customers again, it's all about relationships And we're looking to build this more direct with you And all the community of drummers out there worldwide Because we're going to be soon going into an education program for our uh prologics team here that we're going to be offering, uh, you know tips and fundamentals and myself and joe pristier to start off with and doing uh piece the director of our education is a former student of mine, but also, uh, berkeley graduate Nice an amazing educator and player And um, so together we are looking to put out some content and and get that going forward Very soon here. So first and foremost, it's always the pads Unfortunately came first before the education. I had to stop education to make pads now We're going to bring education back because it goes with the pad. Yeah, we gotta have that and yeah, I want to offer quality Education to everyone It's out there. So Which you do and and I also before we, you know, I want to mention I want to hear too a little bit about you said we would, you know, touch on it later When you got into like guitar center and those big retail partnerships Sweetwater Sweetwater Everyone gets online and goes. I mean, we love small drum shops. Everyone does but People get on sweetwater.com. I mean, I literally was on the phone with uh My guy ryan clapper talking about pro tools stuff like two days ago from sweetwater just because it's like It's there. It's easy. So How has that process been? I mean, that's that's a big jump forward Yeah, again, that's It's been a great process. I think we've been partners with sweetwater since 2015 And we attend their gear fest. They do that every year. Um I want to say that yeah, the customer support you all know this but is amazing. They're their knowledge the staff Uh, every when they have events there I suggest if you've never been to a gear fest, you should you should go to one Yeah, and get there and attend and anybody else that's listening out there check out gear fest That's where you can go Look at all the new gear that's coming out. It's kind of like a nam show But there's like tents outside in a parking lot Large tents and there's drum tent guitar tents and keyboard tents microphone tent Everything you need all outside to check out. There's food trucks. There's live performances. There's Wow, all kinds of classes master classes going on inside performances at night Uh, it's really cool. So if you get a chance check that out um, they've been a great partner of ours and and I'm very fortunate to have built that again. How did how did we do that? Well? Yeah, I was driving back past sweetwater I believe was after basic and I was just coming back through and uh, I met with um With them and had a meeting and we talked about You know, what can I do? What can I do to get in here? I like to get the brand in here? They they love the product just from us talking a little bit before so It's just you have to be you have to go to the place you have to Same thing with suppliers when you're manufacturing products You go go visit the facility go meet the people go inside and look around and see how they're doing things How clean is it? How how their operations work? How the people are talking to each other? How are they you can you can feel the chemistry? coming out of that those places and same with Sweetwater and dealerships and who you're selling to Uh, how do you know how to trust these people? That you meet at nam show that come up to you from all these different countries And want to sell your product. Are they legit? Are they you know? Yeah, you know, we're we're also in China right now, and I'm thankful for that but that's You know for a couple of years. I had different China distributors coming at me and Yeah, I had to do some research on that and that's what we did. We we did our research and we're I'm very happy with the people that distribute our product there. So And that gets into all a whole other Subject I'm kind of bouncing around but intellectual property and we can talk about that Maybe later at another time the Chinese Market I know I mean you don't want to generalize or stereotype or anything But there's you know that happens with brands where they're just basically stole your design and they're selling it Elsewhere and are you gonna pay the tens of thousands of dollars to litigate and stuff exactly exactly I was gonna say yeah, make sure you always have an attorney who Does litigation? Yeah, you got to make sure you have that you got to have all your Things in place and you learn this as you Grow your business, you know through all the It's 20 years here Doing all this stuff. So there's a lot of stories. I yeah, oh my god. I'm sure I want to say too that I should have mentioned this at the beginning you sent me and andrew you guys sent me four pads Uh a while ago Because we've had some scheduling stuff back and forth and and and I have like The pads you sent me have like made me want to practice There was a long time where I never really wanted to like I would play on the drum set But I never want to sit there and I started taking lessons with barry james Uh, which I've been on you know, hiatus from while I moved and all that and um But they are such great quality. They are I love having the I have the four different ones So I have the blue the red the black which is like the super Soft kind of quiet and then the obviously the green one which are greenish blue Which I think you guys are kind of I when I when I see this color. I think of prologix. That's right That's a green logics. Uh, let me just um clarify. So yeah, the green logics is our traditional standard rebound Red storm is the dual layer surface blue lightning is About the five eighths gauge And open cellular structure It's a we call these our vst variant surface training and so the red storm is Medium the blue lightning is heavy and the blackout is the three quarter inch material and it's extreme And as of in a few weeks ago, we came out with a new rim called a flex tech rim Which would be on the resistance Uh, vst training products. That's the red storm blue lightning and blackout So it's a softer rim softer surface low volume practice experience Cool Yeah, what you said I kind of made it like a Idiot version of it and just said I like the blue. No, it's okay. Um, yeah, no, I love them though I mean, they are so just nice and I love having the rim It feels really realistic and just the quality I do like having the plies like you said I never really paid attention to that it feels Drummy, you know, it feels It really feels awesome. Thank you. I appreciate that and we're we're glad you are enjoying your practice experience Yeah, yeah, exactly. It is an experience. You know, I never thought it was an experience It was a sure kind of a pain in the butt before and now it's a great experience Yeah, you want to enjoy to go do it it goes Wherever you go to do that it outside inside in your bedroom studio wherever Um, I want to briefly touch on uh, practice kit And thunder kick. So those are our drum set practice products and the practice kit incorporates A sequential mass compression and sequential mass compression what that means is Obviously sequential things are in consecutive or logical order. So all the tompads have a variant pitch similar to a acoustic drum set and so What we say by sequential mass compression and mass is um It's you know, I just redid that finish and I have here It's a both a property physical body in a measure of its resistance to acceleration The rate of change of velocity with respect to time when a net force is applied Okay, and compression is the force generated from compressing an object or substance So sequential mass compression is what our practice kit surfaces are if they are try density And they give you a Like I say a pitch you can actually hear In the pads and it's enjoyable to practice on when I took me five years to develop this concept in this product And every time through the rnds, you know process As I was creating these it was difficult for me to get up and get away from the From the setup a good sign. I'm like, I gotta get back to work Oh, yeah So because I'm enjoying this so much, but that's what the practice kit is our thunder kick is for your single bass drum pedal We get a lot of questions. Yes a double bass drum pedal Maybe coming soon. So stay tuned for that. But a thunder kick is a inverted uses an inverted beater reverse beater And we sell that with the thunder kick. There's two inserts one soft one's firm that way you can try out different Ones and see what you like in your practice Some people tune their bass drum heads differently with different tensions and we wanted to offer that for you um We had a new branding in 2018 Which we updated our new logo. We had the logo before since 2001. It kind of had a swoop under it And we went to something again wanted to be timeless. So you got to try to think of things that Uh could be a timeless in products and with your branding Out there and more i'm proud of the guys I have that was developed by danny lump. Danny. Thank you for that and so again team having a team of people that's huge and getting growth and and you know Getting scaling your business and I want to thank everyone who's ever been a part of my team Yeah, some of them were you know the friends and family and um people that were in the beginning Thank you all and you know who you are out there I don't want to I don't know if we go through all your names right now But I really thank you for that. It is us without you all I wouldn't Prologics wouldn't be where it is today and so and we all continue to do that And strive to be the best that we can because we eat sleep and breathe practice fats Yeah, that's something else that we do That many others, you know, I'm not saying there are others to do but there's also larger companies They have many other things that they do and so It were where you know, that's what we do for a living. So Yeah, you're the practice pad guy and And you guys I mean, I really do you and Andrew. I consider you guys friends. I mean at uh in uh at PASIC we hung out and um Remember I was in line with andrew I think and I think you you were on the side But like we were in line at the bar there for like 40 minutes and no one was getting served and it was just like What we talked for a while. Well, I'm not basic. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say I think I got like three beers and I hit them behind a A lamp somewhere for it and Nice, but all right. So on that note here is we as we wrap up So you have a new website Yes, amazon I think we have a promo code coming at our our listeners and all this stuff. Why don't you hit that hit that part? So, yeah, we have a new website again. You can purchase directly. Uh, you can also purchase off of amazon that's directly through us as well and uh, we Were built on as I said always relationships and we're going to strive to continue to do that through Uh, the next 20 years or so and doing so For you all of you listeners out there. Thank you for sitting and listening with us today And I would like to offer you a promo code that you can use on our website This will be on our site only not on amazon and you enter history 20 And you'll get 20 off That's great everything in On our website that you would like to purchase so Yeah, I appreciate you doing that. It makes it makes me feel like a legit podcast when there's like promo codes and Things like that. Right. That's really cool. So again that history 20 history 20 folks Yep, so thank you all for listening and um, yeah, but just like this in closing um, I appreciate this opportunity bart for having me on here today and Getting to share the story with everyone In the amount of time we have but there's um Other things too we can cover maybe in a Patreon episode if you yeah Yes, so uh, well on that note. Thank you so much obviously for taking the time to do it Thank you to Andrew Kepicello for for you know being kind of your Yes, your guy who's been helping out a lot with this. Thank you. Andrew. Yeah, Andrew's awesome. Um, of course He is always awesome. Yes. And so as far as a patreon bonus episode, um Jason's gonna hang out and we're gonna talk about I want to hear about so we're gonna talk a little bit more about kind of the entrepreneurial Yeah, that side of things about starting this business and and you know, I think everyone is Besides the fact of yeah, it all worked out great. I want to hear more about some of these like, you know Oh, man, this didn't quite work out or there was some flubs like working with like You know when you're shipping things to china and how the distribution works I think people really are interested in that kind of stuff of like, you know trials and tribulations and Well as I always say You learn by failing and yes, if you don't fail you'll never learn That's and when you do fail You get off your ass and you get back up and keep going Yeah, and don't give up. You haven't failed. You haven't tried Believe in yourself and that's Whether you're making products or you're practicing or you want to be the next drummer on a on a tour bus out of nashville or or You want to live in new york? And you want to do broadway or whatever it is you want to do remember your all products out there and you have to respect and believe in that and You know market yourself Towards those goals set the goals Do them have a vision first How do you get to the vision? Accomplish those goals and you'll you'll get closer to your big vision, you know, whatever that is so Anyways, yeah, I really appreciate everybody and We we thank you all from our hearts Yeah Awesome. Well, thank you jason and again people who want to check out the patreon bonus episode You can head to drumhistorypodcast.com and there is a uh patreon link there and you can join up for two bucks or whatever and Again, jason, thank you for being here on drum history today. Thank you bar. I really appreciate it and I love the experience Take care everybody If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning