 Welcome to Modern Day Debate. We are a neutral platform welcoming all walks of life. If you're looking for more fantastic debates, don't forget to like or subscribe, including tonight's debate on is gravity fake? With both of our interlocutors, Iron Horse and Jockle here to help us find some answers. And if you enjoy what either of them have to say tonight, both of our guest links are in the description below. With that, I'm going to hand it over to Jockle for their up to 12 minute opening statement. All right, Amy, you're gonna have to cut me off because once I get started, I'm not going to be able to stop. There's basically three big areas we could go into this. And I think the first one is probably what the people want. You know, it's like, ah, let's talk about the science. Let's talk about the Cavendish experiment. Let's talk about special relativity, density, buoyancy, get into all those details. And I'm happy to do that. But what I think might be more interesting, deeper and more important is to talk about epistemology. That is, where do we get our truth? Where do we get our sense of knowledge and ultimately authority? I want to get into theology as part of that. And I also want to talk about psychology. I want to talk about what makes a person a globalist. I'm a globalist, you know, physically, politically, but also what makes a person a flat earth or more generally, what makes a person conservative, traditionalist, a dissident, someone who is not, you know, riding the wave of loving science and whatnot. What psychologically makes a person like that? Because I think at the end of the day, the beliefs that we hold are often rooted in deep psychological needs we have that, in some senses, we all share these things in common, but they express themselves to different degrees and in different ways in each individual. So I guess just to split those three sections up here into a 12-minute intro, we've got the Cavendish experiment. The Cavendish experiment is essentially you've got a room, you've got a hanging twine or wire rope, and you've got something like a ruler or a stick, and on each side of the ruler, you've got a mass. And these two masses, you allow them to kind of move randomly due to air currents or whatever, you observe the oscillations random oscillations and a perfect simulation, they wouldn't move at all. But you've got two weights at the end of, you know, this kind of free-floating system. After a time, you introduce a weight like a bowling ball or a concrete block, and you can see that this system, this oscillating system moves toward that mass and basically sticks to that mass. And we can measure the rate of acceleration and we can plug that in and we're finding this constant g. And that constant g is the same constant that we're finding when we look at the calculations of what's the mass of the earth, what's the mass of the moon, how do they move, mass of the sun, mass of the earth. And so these astrological phenomenon happen to correspond, therefore it happens to correspond the same force, finding the same constant on this little Cavendish experiment you can do in a high school classroom. So that is kind of the scientific angle you've also got. I think one of the flatter earth arguments is, you know, if you had this big sun spinning around at a million miles, not actually a million miles an hour, but some astronomically large speed, wouldn't it eventually flatten out like a pancake? Like when you've got your Italians, you know, making the pizza, it tends to flatten out. One of the issues with that is that when we've got bubbles forming, they don't just flatten out. So things as a bubble spins and oscillates in space, it doesn't just flatten out. That is not the sort of natural tendency of bubbles, but rather they form into the spherical shape. And part of that is due to, you know, each of those particles being drawn to the center of mass according to the theory of gravity. So those are kind of the two things I want to bring up, and of course, Flat Earth Ozzie is going to bring up a whole bunch of stuff himself that I'll be happy to respond to. Moving on to kind of the epistemology, which is just a big word for how do we know what we know? Where do we get our knowledge? Where do we get our authority? We have theology, which tells us what's the nature of God. Does God exist? Does he not exist? You know, how do we know him? Do we know him through the Bible, through the Catholic Church, through ourselves? And I want to ask Flat Earth Ozzie, because I'm curious and I don't know, what is his theological beliefs? Does he purely derive it from empiricism, intuition? Is he some variance of Calvinist? You know, does he believe Solascriptura in the Bible? Does he believe in Mother Gaia, the Earth Goddess or something? You know, what does he believe in? Where does he derive those beliefs? And that goes to a deeper question of if he, for instance, says that, well, I get my ideas of all these things simply from empiricism, the problem with pure naive empiricism, which is I walk outside, I look at the Earth, looks flat, good enough for me. The problem with that is that all of our knowledge is contained in language. And language is not something which is individualistically constructed. All language is collective and it requires authority. So every word that we use is not invented by ourselves, but it's a sign meaning through this collective evolutionary process. You know, every word that we use is not originating with us, but it's borrowed from, you know, this collective emergent authority that is dispersed throughout a hierarchy in our society and evolves over time from, you know, tribal to global societies. So understanding that, I think we have to call into question this sort of naive empiricism that Flat Earth would suggest. Moving lastly to the psychological part, people ask, what does deep left mean? Well, there's a lot of meanings to deep left. It's deep. It's a concept with a lot of layers, the political, psychological, spiritual layers. But psychologically, I want to talk about the way in which, you know, there is a psychological left type that I personally discovered when I was looking at art. And I was asking this question, why is all art left-wing? Now you might dispute that, and I disputed it as well. And I said, isn't there right-wing art as well? But I asked this question, why is there seemingly this left-wing bias in art? And that led me to believe that there are different psychological types of people that end up influencing opinions, such as political opinions. And again, we can keep this debate as narrow and focused on, you know, bubbles and cavendish as we want. But I think we have to step back and realize that a lot of the opinions that we hold and the biases that drive us to rationalize things that we already want to believe due to emotional reasons. So, you know, I want to believe that, you know, millions of people aren't lying to me, that, you know, all the airlines and pilots aren't engaged in a conspiracy to hide the Flat Earth. I want to believe that, you know, people are basically, you know, at least some degree of honest, and that something like that is not possible. That's my psychological bias. You know, maybe Flat Earth Ozzy has a different psychological bias. And I want to explore that. So those are the big three. Let me just check where I'm at on time. I didn't set a timer here. But those are the big three things. I mean, we are currently about 13 minutes into the stream itself. So I think I'm getting around the mark. I really do want to hear more because I could, you know, go off on Spangler, the Magian image of the Flat Earth cavern that then moves into the Faustian with, you know, the globe Earth, right? There's that dimension to it as well. I'd like to discuss within sort of the psychological component, the cultural component. You know, this quest for knowledge, what's under the Earth? Flat Earth Ozzy doesn't care. He's just live in life. The Faustian spirit does care, does care about knowledge and space, infinite space, in fact, exploration. So that, I guess, is kind of the annotation or the asterisk to the psychological component to this. So I think with that, I should cut it off there wherever I'm at in my time and give it back to Flat Earth Ozzy. That sounds great. Thank you so very much, John Cole, for your opening statement. And I'm going to now hand it over to Iron for your up to 12 minute opening statement. Well, thank you very much, Amy. And thank you very much, John Cole. That was very interesting. It was not at all what I was expecting, which is interesting because all I do have here is the written word. And I do apologize if I go slightly over the lot of time because I would like to read it all. And I'm quite happy to let you have extra time if you wanted to go further, if you wanted to as well. So basically, I've written down and I'm just going to read it word for word because I'm very good at forgetting stuff. Otherwise, you know, somebody who loves a bit of a drink, we've got a bit of short term memory problems at my age, you know, I'm getting old and stuff. So my intro starts with, well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening and good night. It's always a pleasure to be hosted on modern day debate, the world's leading nonpartisan neutral debating platform. My name is Ross Thatcher. I can be found on Cora and Facebook by that name, currently enjoying yet another 30 day stint in Facebook's prejudice prison. Thanks to sharing facts about vaccines. I'm now known on YouTube as Iron Horse, formerly known as Flat Earth Aussie Jesus. Iron became the initials of Iron because the initials of Flat Earth FE are the scientific symbol for iron, while my Christian name Ross, in ancient Teutonic, literally translates as horse. I almost added gold symbolized as AU, which is also literally a symbol for Australia. But iron gold horse sounded just a little too pretentious, even for me. I'm quite happy for James to continue with the moniker I began this platform with, Flat Earth Aussie. And on that note, I'd like to thank James for inviting me onto this weighty matter, the great gravity hoax originally intended to be with a popular regular debate, unfortunately, or otherwise, he was unable to be here today. So I'd like to thank the late Phil in making his debut, a new face on the scene, and we'll see which part of his moniker he lives up to, whether he's a joke or if he's cool. Not that I'm wanting to make fun of a person's name, nor to attack their purse. A cunning linguist like myself places great value on the phonetic vibration of sound, since the vibratory frequency of sound holds more weight than the manner in which it's spelt. Before the invention of the convention of the modern dictionary, it was common to use a multiple of variations to spell the word. And still, despite the consensus of the way a word is spelled, it might still hold multiple definitions, meaning it might mean many different meanings despite having a mean meaning. And I don't mean to be mean, just average. The etymology of a word gives greater insight into how it came into current usage. For example, the word that once meant to be exuberantly happy has now come to reply as a noun for a member of the homo sapien species who prefers to copulate with a member of the same biological sex. Now there's an interesting word too, biological. I wonder if there's such a thing as autobiological, or am I stretching the boundaries of lexicology too far? Lexicology, being the study of linguistics or words, goes hand in hand, platonically speaking of course, with numerology, which is the study of numbers, which together could be described as the mathematics of language. When Nikola Tesla told us, quote, in order to understand the secrets of the universe, think in terms of frequency in vibration, it reminds us of the power of words, be here now, be that amazing insect that makes honey in accordance with the hive mind, here, of course, I hear them making a buzz. Now, of course, I'll be there in an hour. The phonetic sound is energy, frequency, and vibration, which is why the knowers or nostics have reminded us that the pen is mightier than the sword. A sword has might and power, but it's a severing tool, a weapon of destruction. But when Jesus the Christ had one allegedly said, I come not to bring peace but a two-edged sword, he was literally speaking in parables. He knew that words are swords and swords are words, and all words have more than one meaning. The pen is mightier than the sword. We contain animals in a pen. We lock lawbreakers in a pen intentionally, penitentiary. So what is contained within a simple pen is the eventual potency or potential frequency and vibration of every word in existence. One of my favorite childhood authors also wrote short stories for adults. One particular old Dahl story was about an author who picked up a hitchhiker who described himself as a finger smith. Not just the mere common pickpocket, as he explains, but a true artist in the ways of distract and deceive in order to relieve them of their possessions. The crafty rat-like man, however, upon hearing that the driver was an author, a published writer, well, his respect went up immediately. As one artist respects another, he subsequently dubbed him a word smith. Now, most of us are familiar with a black smith, but none of us would suggest that he's a master of darkness or things that are black. More likely than not, his moniker originated from his art of working the forge. The subsequent soot and ash from heating and hammering iron in the forge coated him and his clothing with a film of black soot, which is what led to the term black smith, as opposed to his true art, forger of iron, as much to shod horses as to beat out swords. The irony is that his art was done as a forgery. It's possibly where the seeds of black's law originated. In the art of doublespeak, where the law of deception was masterminded to the point that it offended facing the irony of the bar, required an interpreter to face the charge. Often a matter so grave it would be described as a very weighty matter. The scales of justice would weigh the evidence, and in the modern judiciary system, a jury of peers would have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt if the prosecution had delivered a case sufficient to either incarcerate the charged person to a sentence in a penitentiary for a period, or if in fact the matter was so grave, the weight hanging around his neck, was sufficient to sentence the accused to a full stop. Sometimes the charge was as dastardly as copulation outside the sacred bounds of the sacrament of marriage, known as carnal knowledge, a person found guilty would have his tombstone marked for all of his story to see found under carnal knowledge after being sentenced to his final grave. Eventually the number of such fornicators indicated for such a crime grew to such proportions that the overworked stoning ravers abbreviated it to simply F-U-C-K, found under carnal knowledge. Those paying final rights to one of the dead soon originated another new word to add to the English vernacular and would say, well, here's F-U-C-K'd. And so we find our way around to the gravity. The matter doesn't matter. Well, if you mind, it matters. If you don't mind, it won't. So what is mind? Do you mind? What does a miner mind? He signs the coal of black smith in flames or ignites in his forge to beat iron into swords or shoes for a horse. If you mind, it matters. It's a state of mind. What's yours is mine. What mine is mind? Do you possess possessions or do they possess you? That is the grave weight of the matter. The etymological origins of the word gravity comes from the Latin term gravitas, sometimes also gravus. The literal translation of both simply means weight. Thus we're discussing the weight of matter. My opponent was probably expecting me to focus on the fact that gravity of this day is just a theory, which indeed it is. But then I expect the usual obfuscation of doublespeak champions to declare that in science, almost genetically identical to science, the conjuring of departed spirits or entities, no longer embodied in physical matter. That theory has a completely different meaning from what the average indentured servant slash taxpayer understands it to mean without being mean on the average. Hence we must appeal to the educated interpreter or solicitor of knowledge to give us the black slaw definition. Yeah, we're getting juicy now. When you ask any scientist, any astrophysicist, what is gravity, they shrug. They honestly admit. We don't know. Next quest, Dion. They can tell us what it does, but what is it? It's a simplistic theory, words designed to satisfy a young inquiring mind new to the concept of living on the outside surface of a spirit, spherical open air planet spinning and hurling through a vacuum of space. As to why and how everyone everywhere can always appear to exist on top of the ball and no one is flipping over the edges or dropping off the bottom. They called it the force, but it wasn't scientific sounding enough. Let's use the edge of macaided words, which was which we use everywhere in science, the Latin term gravitas, but they know that means weight will modernize it and call it the weighting matter gravity. What does it matter? Physics, after all, is merely the observation of how physical matter behaves. We'll even write down some of these laws of matter. An object at rest remains at rest unless another force acts upon it. Seems reasonable. The force kidding it at rest must therefore be its own weight or mass. Conversely, we can assume that an object in motion remains in motion unless another force is acted upon it. It can't be gravity, which is the weight of its own mass. The external force that stops it must be friction, restriction or resistance. So now what is physics? The science of physical matter, the material world. Matter in its own right is inert. It takes a force to resist, to redistribute matter. That force is energy. Let's go back to Tesla. If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration. If you mind, it matters. So if an object is in motion, let's say an apple drops from a tree, it will remain in motion unless another force acts upon it. And to add off neutron, I mean copper knickers, no, no, no, error toes to the knees. One of them, Brainiacs anyway. From centuries ago, they were still dipping ostrich feathers in inkwells to scribe the parchment. One of them got beamed by the apple goods. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what happened when the physical matter of his skull and brains intermediated between the object in motion and not being in motion, a resistance? That apple would, according to the laws of measurable and observable science, lawfully have kept dropping forever, apparently at the rate of 9.81 meters per second squared, at least until another force acted upon it. And what force could that possibly be? Resistance. Resistance due to the physical mass, the density of said mass of sufficient density to arrest it, to bring it to rest to make it wait. When you're forced to wait in line, the only thing that compels you to move is your will, your desire, your compunction to burn calories created driving force that will move you from your place of rest. Where were you waiting? Why were you waiting? Were you holding mass? What was holding you up, the ground or the flow of currency from people being charged ahead of you? I think I've said enough to dismiss any hope of my opponent may have to respond to the fact that gravity is a hoax. In the small time space found to run some dirt on him, it seems he's totally politically motivated, has no credentials in either physics or the nature of reality from which physics is but a sub-range, but he does seem to possess an end game of seeking power. I found it on his link. Go take a look. How do you gain power? Well, you must be charged for it. You charge your phone, your batteries. There needs to be an energy exchange. So when you're seeking power, you are looking to take, not give. A vampire is the end point, the full stop. A river has currency because the banks support it. When the river flows, it gives life to all its constituents. It is the living life force of the veins of the living mother whose very breath we breathe to stay alive, whose blood we drink to nurture our blood, whose flesh we consume to sustain our flesh. When we go to the grave, we return back that which she lent to us, six foot down under. We pile matter or matter the mother earth upon our empty shell so that the seed may grow and join the ancestors in the sky, shining their unique vibratory frequency down upon us. Only in the heliocentric dialect do we require weight or mass to become an invisible force of attraction with no valid description, evidence or logical explanation. Simply, mass does seem to be falling and accelerating at close to 10 meters per second per second. Even nothing's ever observed to double the rate of drop every 10 meters it passes or drops through. It's simply the rate of any mass dropping through the medium of air. Get to a high bridge, drop a baseball and a shot putter of equal size and both hit the water at exactly the same time. Then your magical invisible pulling force gets selective. It gladly pulls the lead ball down to its inky depths but tells the lightweight ball to go back to the surface now. You've too much hot air in you but the density of the lead, your god of the gaps gravity kindly welcomes it down. Such a grave matter. If relative density gives some things buoyancy then surely the only mathematical equation where required to adhere to is the relative density between an object and the medium it's in. The resistance factor of the medium relative to the density of the object. That's it. The only time we need except any electrostatic forces of attraction they should do invoke the cave man dish crepolio where objects suspended will never truly be addressed anyway nor will fluid air surrounding them so left to their own manufactured devices. They will eventually come to rest against something which resists them moving any further. Possibly assisted by an electrostatic charge created from air molecules rubbing off on them. Weird eh? Rubbing on to get off. What an electrostimulatory world we live upon. I'm almost finished. If I'm going to be a part of a mass debate I'm going to stop until the not going to stop until the money shot. My sword is honed on both edges but my pen is still about to stab its fatal blow. In the philosophy of mass attraction the pulling forces attributed to the attraction of mass. The greater the girth or width of the earth the more things of matter are attracted to it yet to prevent them into the sun and the sun being attracted to everything else in the galaxy and every galaxy beyond us everything colliding back into the singularity which created the big bang where we have dark matter black's law everything which keeps everything within its place according to the observable laws of density and buoyancy or to be scientific relative density and resistance looking forward to seeing how joe cool can respond to that. Thank you so very much iron and jockel for your opening statements and with that we are now going to move into an hour of open discussion. The floor is all yours gentlemen. Okay awesome well that was very poetic and I think you're a very skilled poet. I appreciate this kind of discursive thinking where two hours before the debate you just write a word salad that's your words not mine not not an insult but it's a beautiful tasty salad you know I don't know how much you know scientific truth is in there but there's certainly a lot of you know energy and emotion and I can appreciate that I can appreciate this this search you have for beauty and words and you want to view the world in a beautiful way and you know in some ways I can appreciate that which is sort of why I brought up earlier this this Spanglarian example of the magian conception of the world dome so you know when you read the Bible I think it is pretty clear that the ancient Hebrews did have this concept of a pretty much a flat earth with this this heavenly firmament and there's it's almost like a glass dome with various planets and stars and it's it's a beautiful picture and and maybe this is kind of really going into crazy town but isn't that what Minecraft is I don't know if you've ever played Minecraft before but I think Minecraft is the greatest argument for the flat earth not a scientific argument not an empirical argument obviously but an aesthetic argument an argument that you know wouldn't it be a more beautiful a more simple a more aesthetic world if everything was just flat with like these clouds you know above on a ceiling and you know everything is kind of contained in this space and it all just seems to make sense and it appeals to us on like a basic fundamental level to the point where you know you start to wonder is there something genetically inborn about this belief is this something you mentioned you know our ancestors in the sky that is anthropologically something that we see pop up all over the place this concept that when we look up at the stars those are representative of our ancestors so a lot of the beliefs that you're espousing through your poetry I think are important to take note of and not to simply dismiss as idiotic or stupid but they're important to take note of as for the appeal of their aesthetics for the beauty of the picture that you're forming and there's a power in that that I think we've forgotten and we've dismissed with science and we've neglected and sometimes I think when we talk about this concept of ignorance right you know people on my side would say flat earthers are ignorant people but I also think that the people who just sort of blindly adopt the science without really understanding the the pull of your position I think they're also ignorant they're ignorant of you know a deep aesthetic intuitive desire to understand the world and another example I'd give of this would be you know Plato's cave this cavern that we exist and it's the self-contained world of course in that example Plato says there's an outer world right there's an outer world outside of the cave and we need to go into that world and that is I would say to some extent this proto Faustian vision of we need to get out of the earth we need to find out what's under the earth we need to go into infinite space so you know these two contrasting views of the world are not purely empirical although you know I obviously think there's an empirical reality to one and not the other but I think there is this deeper emotional artistic poetical draw that each of them have and there's a separate psychology that's going to bias us toward these things I mean do do you feel for example do you feel that there are certain people in this world who you know are more drawn toward the beautiful simplicity of the flat earth and then there were other people who are sort of these egghead you know sciencey nerds or whatever who who just follow whatever authority tells them to do I mean do you see that at all iron horse okay well you've mentioned quite a lot there so I guess I'll just take you on the last bit because I tend to like to if we're going to argue point for point we'll just do one little thing at a time but I'm quite impressed first of all the fact that you didn't just go straight into the whole sciencey sciencey stuff of physics and you know Einstein and a Newtonian sort of crap because you know that's impressive because it's the sort of thing I was expecting and the fact that you were basically talking about the etymology of words was very surprising to me which I really appreciate it so you're talking about rather poetic view of how we view reality because you know reality just happens to be on this place we call earth we've in the past we've made many assumptions all the philosophers and the scientists and so forth have made lots of assumptions of what earth actually is but basically it is just a realm that we live upon and ideally the the whole point of it is yes we do want to make it as beautiful as we possibly can we want to see it in the most simplistic terms because that is what truth is all about if you have to obfuscate truth in a whole heap of complicated nonsense then it's probably not true that's how you you tell the greatest lies is by obfuscating it the most that's what the you know William of Ockham was all about you know the most simple direct explanation for a thing with the least convoluted assumptions is more than likely the truth and so that's how we have Ockham's razor and what is truth and yeah I think that the flat earth has generally he was he started off as a global believer he was a full-on heliocentrist and he fully believed it at least in my case I absolutely fully believed the whole heliocentric view of the universe of our existence of us living on this special little spinning blue ball hurtling through space and then the more and more I looked into it the more I just realized you know none of these things are adding up you know what observable parts of those assumptions can be proved in the classroom in the laboratory in reality you know I've got winds wafting around me these winds are the atmosphere but they were told that this atmosphere is moving with the earth no no it's moving completely independent of the earth in fact you know the earth doesn't seem to be moving at all and there's nothing scientific that we can do no instrument that can detect motion of the earth so we have to rethink things and say well the whole idea of an atmosphere moving with the earth through a vacuum of space and the only thing that holds it together is this invisible pulling force called gravity which is what we're here to discuss today and this pulling force of gravity makes no sense in any observable experiment that we can do for example the hammer throw event in the olympic games we can swing a weight around and around on a string and the minute we let it go it flies off in a straight direction it does come crashing back down to the earth and we could attribute that to gravity but that's not how gravity works it's basically the lack of resistance of air which for eventually causes the weight to overcome that or the resistance of air to overcome the weight to eventually cause it to come back down and it happens pretty quickly you know within a few hundred meters at the most I'm sure I'm not sure the world's record of it but the whole idea of everything outside of the earth they're said to orbit as though they're on a string in perpetual motion and that is obviously completely everything against physics as we can observe and practice so all it comes down to is basically that the heliocentric belief and the belief in gravity that is probably the most indoctrinated religious belief in all the history of mankind and to believe in that basically I think means that you're you've been brainwashed into believing something that doesn't exist but you're told to make to believe in because otherwise the whole model falls apart okay yeah I will try to keep it to one point you know at per your request the first point I would want to make would be about cars so you say that how can it be that the winds around me are moving independently of the earth if they're also supposed to be traveling with the earth the example I would give is I can be in a car that's driving 70 miles an hour drive down the highway at the same time I can move my hands back and forth I can climb from the front seat to the back seat I can jump in the car you know so I can move about independent from the motion of the car while the car is moving you know and and that's basically how the atmosphere the atmosphere is like this amorphous gaseous passenger in the car that is the rotating earth and you know when we're in a car and it's driving 70 miles an hour we can't feel the speed of the car we can feel it accelerate if someone slams on the gas or slams on the brake but if it continues at a consistent speed we're not going to feel the movement of the car we can feel if someone pushes us in the car or something else happens but it's the same thing with us moving around the earth you mentioned the fact that there's no device that can detect the movement of the last point no device that can detect the movement of the earth and I think you're probably referring to like seismographs or something that that measure earthquakes right but again this is relative so if you take a seismograph into a car and the road is perfectly smooth the seismograph isn't going to measure the speed of the car if you slam on the brakes or the gas it'll measure the acceleration but once you're at a consistent velocity relatively speaking there's no force being applied to you with respect to the vehicle and our vehicle is the earth well I've never heard of anybody ever taking a seismograph onto a moving car for that matter okay well you can look it up after this debate yeah for sure but they're obviously a very very very sensitive instrument which is designed to detect the slightest vibrations of the earth which is why a seismograph can detect an earthquake from hundreds and hundreds of miles away and even tell you what scale on the rick that it is so I think they're two completely different things when you're talking about the motion of a car then um yeah the car has a windscreen it has doors and windows and a roof that's fully enclosed nowhere in the on the earth hurtling through a vacuum of space do we have the advantage of such a thing as a windscreen doors windows and a roof over us you know assuming that we're even moving in the first place so that's a non-secretary they don't even compare to one another that there's nothing the same and people bring this one up all the time so what I would like to suggest is if say you're able to do it in a very large truck or train carriage but make it so that the height of this truck or train carriage is very very high and I'd like to see if you're traveling at 70 miles per hour if in fact if you throw a ball up in the air sufficiently high enough even though that air is still moving with you if it would actually fall back to you over to hit the back of the wall I'm telling you to the best of my knowledge I think it would hit the back of the wall because you are moving beneath that ball and that ball is not still traveling with the same inertia you threw it up with which has a slightly forward velocity above you know a couple of feet and that's the best you get in a plane or a train or in a car is a couple of feet and that's not sufficient to see enough distance you know you'll eventually soon learn just to throw it a little bit further forward so that it lands straight back in your hands that's where inertia fails because if you remove the lid of your car and you threw the ball up a few feet it will immediately fall behind you and people will always say yeah well wind resistance but hang on the earth is moving the wind how can the earth be moving different from the car and and still take the wind with it if it doesn't have that windshield effect you know the earth should be moving through that very same wind and in a vacuum of space I'm sorry but there's nothing to contain that air that air is wafted off behind you like a huge comet tail immediately and we'd lose all our water as well we would lose it immediately you know water boils in a vacuum at room temperature you just can't have the combination of both you can't have the uncontained earth in a vacuum and have you know be on the outside you know what engineer would ever ever in their right mind design a spaceship where the inhabitants sit on the outside without a space suit nobody ever so how can it be possible that we're on the open air of an organic spinning space ball in a vacuum of space it's just not even possible to begin with okay so in the example of the car you're basically saying that if I have the top down I can feel the wind on my face that there's this resistance of the wind and you know how's it possible with the earth you know and the earth is revolving around the sun you know how is it possible that everything is contained well the reason is because when I'm in a convertible with the top down driving my car there is wind there is air there is atmosphere that is resisting me that's pushing against me that I can feel if we could you know drive a car on a road that had no atmosphere we would not feel any resistance and it would actually be quite eerie because it would feel like we really weren't moving at all again assuming a perfectly smooth road you mentioned that a seismograph that's completely different you know it measures very slight vibrations but you can adjust that quantitatively right it's not a qualitative difference to say I'm going to measure vibrations at a small level that according to earthquake rifter scale and then adjust that to then detect motion on another scale so yeah I mean the fact that the earth is you know revolving around the sun through a vacuum means that there's no resistance there's no there's no outside atmosphere air resistance that our earth and our atmosphere is encountering so as we're moving through space it's as if you know we're passing through nothing and and it would be the same thing as if if you were driving your car with no air no atmosphere no resistance you wouldn't feel like you're resisting anything one of the questions I'd like to ask you related to this is you know you're saying that you're talking about balls in the air and density of the air and the resistance of the air are you saying that if there was no air at all or just that the air was thin because maybe you don't you think vacuums are impossible let's say we're up in very thin air on the top of a mountain if I drop a ball on on the top of a mountain is that ball going to instantly hit the ground because there's there's no air resistance or at least is it going to be proportional you know so if I say I'm on top of Mount Everest there's half the amount of oxygen up here if I drop a ball should it drop you know twice as fast well well that's exactly where you've got your whole mistake um in a nutshell like everybody there's a bloke in the um the chat was asking me before this started you know why if the air is less dense above us do things fall down shouldn't they be falling up but the point is resistance comes from more density it doesn't come from less density so if something is less dense above a thing of matter a thing of weight with mass weight and volume then it naturally seeks downwards that is the first law of science is you observe what is happening what are all our observations saying a thing of mass falls down we don't have any say in that that's just what it does and when it stops it's stopped because of a place of resistance so if you've got even thinner air less and less dense air it's giving even less resistance so we'll actually fall slightly faster until it suddenly reaches the air and then suddenly get some air resistance because of its shape and resistance factor and then or reach a terminal velocity but it won't stop because air doesn't offer sufficient resistance unlike the ground so when it hits the ground bam that's where your maximum resistance is going to be and so the earth itself if it was moving through a vacuum it is the the thing of resistance and it would be pushing itself straight through the atmosphere it wouldn't give a damn about the atmosphere all the air would be on the back side of the earth and it's spinning once every 24 hours but it's also beating around the sun as you say orbiting the sun it's going 65 times faster than it is spinning on its axis so you've got a combination of two different factors of it hurtling along at 67 thousand miles per hour spinning at a thousand miles per hour and the air obviously it's going to go to the place of least resistance which is the vacuum you have to have a container to contain gases you can't go it up to the to the gas station or you know somewhere to fill up your gas bottle and say oh well I don't need a bottle gravity can be my container that stuff is going to dissipate and spread out you need a container to contain gas assuming that we are in space which my last um debate here was all about whether or not we are in space and obviously we're not the stationary plane of earth is at the bottom of the known universe it's the only physical plane of existence and everything including the air molecules the water molecules the physical stuff but all finds its place according to the observable and repeatable logical laws of density and buoyancy and in that very rare incidence where you do something like the Cavendish experiment where you've suspended some weights from strings so that they're sort of balanced they're never going to be perfectly still they're always going to be just the tiniest little bit of movement you can't tell I think I made one note about that you said a perfect simulation and yes in a perfect simulation in a computer that would technically be correct because you haven't got reality of physics affecting something in a simulation in reality we do have air and air is a fluid and the air molecules are constantly in motion and they will eventually impart some amount of electrostatic charge to any object especially if it's plastic or whatever and eventually these things will come to rest against one another and that is not proof of gravity because what that is saying is that the gravity of the earth which is like a million billion times stronger than the gravity of a bowling ball that this little thing is going to overcome the gravity of the earth to be attracted to the bowling ball the cement block as you put it I never heard it that way before but that is not is how that would not be how gravity works there's pool of gravity of the earth would always be stronger and that thing would never be attracted to the larger ball so it's another beautiful flat earth proof of the fact that everything in motion is eventually going to come to rest at something that will resist it and then it will stay at rest until another force acts upon it okay and experiment yeah and they're okay and the Cavendish experiment the force of gravity is pulling those suspended weights downward there is no rotational force outside of random oscillations from air currents when you place a weight like a bowling ball or cement block you can have vectors I don't have you ever heard of vectors before in physics force vectors right so while something like a cannon ball right yeah yeah so when a cannon ball a shot out of a cannon there's a force vector that is driving it let's say north it's shot due north but at the same time there's a gravitational force bringing it downward so you can have multiple forces in multiple directions at the same time with regard to this question of how can the atmosphere be contained on the earth why doesn't it all just dissipate and you gave the example of you know you go to the grocery store and you get a beverage and it's contained within some kind of plastic or glass now that is bound together right it's bound together it's a solid and those the the fragility of that glass is the strength of that glass to contain the liquid or the gas if I heat up that liquid or gas it's going to expand and ultimately that expansion force can overcome the strength of the container and so in any time we talk about containment the phenomenon is we have a force which is counteracting the natural and tropic expansionary force of a liquid or a gas that is you know water wants to reach the lowest point air wants to disperse into a vacuum and so in the case of the earth it's actually the gravitational force that acts as that containing force now it's not perfect in the sense that if you go to the highest layer of our atmosphere yes there is a little bit of atmosphere that's kind of floating off into space there's a miniscule amount when you reach that limit but of course here on earth it's close enough that it is basically contained by you know its own weight with respect to the gravitational pull of the earth as well as the weight of all the atmosphere that's above it for miles and miles so gravity so I just have to ask you then what is gravity that is a great question that is a great question and it's one that we would like to know more about and I think we can all admit that we don't know everything like you don't know what's on the bottom of the earth if you knew what was on the bottom of the earth that would really help flesh out this flatter theory and give it some you know credentials but you know you don't you say you're disinterested I am interested in in the mechanism that creates gravity we know that gravity is related to distance and mass but what exactly is it and in order to understand where gravity proceeds from we have to understand the nature of mass and so what is mass is it a particle is it a wave you know how deep are we going to go into this do you believe in the atomic theory you know do you think all of that is made up I mean obviously atomic theory has been further pushed into quarks and then even further into theoretical strength theory so there's a lot of things that we don't know and as humans with limited abilities for perception when we're getting to these small scales we're having to use instruments and devices that in the process of our measurements we're actually affecting the matter we're trying to measure and therefore you know you're getting this kind of observation problem of in order to observe an electron and to observe its location or its speed I'm going to actually be modifying those things at the same time so that would be a question for you do you believe in the atomic model that that was basically the answer so the earth is ageless top man has always existed and this whole concept of 6000 years ago that's just somebody's record of it after their particular reset man man has always existed will always be and all right guys we this is going to be our second half welcome everyone back to modern day debate we are in the open discussion of is gravity fake we're about halfway through it and so I'm handing the balls back over to jockel and iron depending the balls back over that's really cool of you I was in the middle of having a rant actually and jockel who explained to me that we've we've gone into lockdown you know we're in the middle of a covid situation here massive lockdown so I had no idea what train of thought I was in at the time I'm sure he would remember because he's much younger than I am much better good looking and so he will have a much better memory of the questions he was asking me which I was in the middle of going in a massive rant about answering and over to you jockel yeah we did get quite off topic in the you know there's like a debate format that we have to follow and we have to be enemies and whatnot and that's all part of the the game here on youtube but we got we got a little bit off topic there so I have to get back into adversarial combat mode we have to fight for for the audience here um let me let me try to uh get we got into a couple of things about the age of the earth um you you basically mentioned and I want to try to tie this together so I don't want to just say like oh well let's just talk about anything but I really want to get to something that you mentioned which was you know what is gravity you don't even know what it is um and we could continue to ask that about a number of things you could say well what really is a force what really is mass what really is energy you know when it comes down to it we can we can kind of sporadically question what is the meaning of these concepts what ultimate grounding do they have um is it possible that we can simply in your case just say like air has density density means things fall downward that's all that's going on a simple occum's razor or in my case it's gravity is a force it pulls things according to mass and distance simply what it is there might be something deeper to it I just don't know but that's as much as I know I you know people have theories about gravitons and bending spacetime and whatnot and um whatever mechanism it is uh you know it's like there are these forces and you know things do exist and the question is like at what point can we be satisfied in a truth at what point can we be satisfied in a knowledge and the example of why I'm bringing this up as you said something like you know off camera you said the earth is ageless and men are ageless and this is going back to what I introduced in part one kind of related to um a civilizational worldview right um that in a you know magian worldview Judaism Islam Christianity there is a beginning and an end there's a certain teleology a soteriology of salvation we start at a certain place we go through a certain fall or trial and then it's like a three act play we end up um at the end you know with some kind of transformation but when you suggest that things are just sort of endless and ageless without a beginning without necessarily an end um you know that same question of grounding comes to mind it's like well you know where's the ground of these things at what point do we say you know this is simply is what it is and we're not going to question it further um you know or at what point do we say maybe there's some kind of underlying mechanism maybe there's some kind of um you know further truth that we need to investigate what's your take on that well I think the quest of knowledge is never going to end we're never going to have all the answers to everything and if we do if we reach such a stage of enlightenment you know that there's that's an interesting word the word light itself you know it become light means less than heavy and what is heavy well that's the weight of things so there's there's like the the two spectrums of things light and darkness or enlightenment and grave the grave you know like if you become enlightened enough I think eventually over a period of time is that even humanity reaches a point of mass consciousness where they become enlightened and they rise to a higher vibrational level and then meanwhile we've got this particular level this plain our earth that we're on this is the physical plane this is where star seeds get planted to see whether they make it or not to become a star and so literally we're sent down here to be tested to be tried to to be stuck down in the the soil of this matter to see if we're capable of reaching a stage you know the the vibrational intelligent conscious stage you know we can easily exist as monkeys and you know stealing off one another and other things but since we invoke rules and laws and things which make society a better place and then we strive to make this world a better place then we have a purpose yeah our purpose then is not just to survive it's not just to be better than other people and be smarter than them or to show them off but yeah show them up in a debate you know I've got no intentions of doing that with anybody all I'm hoping to do is plant seeds that will make people strive to want to do something better to make the world a better place and the way I see the world being a better place is well what are our basic requirements water air good earth and a bit of fire a bit of energy you know so those things combined do combine to give us a better quality of life and if we control them consciously we can make the world a better place so yeah sure we can just go out and plant some seeds in the field and a certain percentage of might survive but if we do it with intelligence that's that's our purpose in life is to apply our intelligence our inborn intelligence which is what our purpose is to apply intelligence to improving things in a better way to make things better and that's why you know a genius for example will invent a better invention something that will make the world easier for people to to move on so we don't have to spend half our time out in the field pulling weeds or plowing or whatever we can spend more time applying our intelligence to higher aspects of life which is the finer arts whether it be you know for beauty purposes or whether it be for something that is a functional purpose but that is the purpose of life and I think that we go through these resets like we look into our not so distant past and we look at some of the things that the people are able to do like you know they built pyramids okay that's a fair long time ago but they had carvings in solid marble and we're expected to believe there is a chisel and a hammer to carve these intricate like fishnets and hair and absolute beauty of things just like carving it no because we're thinking with the wrong frame of mind they had an advanced technology or understanding of the matter of things the way matter works and I believe that that's why we get these resets every so often because what happens is all these people they reach a state of consciousness they no longer need to exist here in this physical plane and so what happens is they all just go up to a higher dimension and then meanwhile we're left with a bunch of orphans with no idea what's going on we've got orphan trains of people going everywhere you know we're looking at this major architecture and we're supposed to believe these people were doing this with the horse and buggy type days but as you look in the places they were living in they're just bloody little tiny wooden huts and you know if you're lucky they had tin if they could even evolve that far but we've got these massive grandiose buildings that have been around for centuries upon centuries so I think that yes mankind has always existed and we reach a certain stage and then what we do we've run out of things that are interesting so we just do another reset and that's why we come back again and we go hmm that was fun but you know I've run out of fun I've got to do it again and so to me that's the the whole mind of God if you want if you wish to use such a term is that if God knew everything then what is the point of its existence it would be bored shitless as I know everything what's some little loophole I can find that I can put myself into to go and make life interesting again now I know I'll just be born as a newborn baby and discover everything all fresh again that's what I think is the purpose all right one of the things you said in there was about fire being energy is that just a metaphor or is all energy in the universe reducible to what you call fire energy is just a word energy is just a term that human of invention and generally we apply it to something that's of matter transforming faster than it usually transforms something you can make a compost pile and things break down slowly but if you light a fire then that breakdown of things happens quite energetically and so we apply that term energy but basically everything is you know I guess even Einstein told us that it's matter times the speed of light squared so everything is in a state of transformation it's um yeah I wouldn't say that fire is the only state of transformation it's just one of them I just asked because before you said that you follow the Greek model or what I understand to be the Greek model with earth fire wind and air so I was wondering you know do you believe because you know the Greeks believe that each of those elements you know had its own characteristics and that they combined in various ways to make up you know matter and phenomena so I was wondering if you believe that fire is you know that that basically any motion at all is the result of tiny little fire which is basically what the Greeks believed or if you think those two things are if you think there's a something separate called energy which is separate from fire that maybe fires a particular phenomenon of it as it relates to gravity because when or density you know when we're thinking of things falling is that what mechanism is that due to is that due to little fires propelling things downward or is uh what exactly what is the mechanism of density you know you stated that things just kind of fall down because they're heavier than air but you know what's the mechanism what's propelling okay that was a pretty convoluted question you asked okay yeah let me simplify it for you like in my model there's there's gravity you had your chance you mentioned the earth air fire and water which I was describing before is the four elementals of life and when the four of those things combine which is you know earth physical matter air which is the gases the breath of life earth air fire that's the energy the electrical energy of life and water well that is the the gift of love that is love manifests that is what I believe water is so those four energies combined give this the fifth element which is life so all living matter require those four elements of earth air fire and water and with the right combination and the right balance of things you can stay alive for a very long time so you then try to invoke then the energy of fire so like if we were trying to ask a an astrophysicist what is electricity we'll get the same answer as what is gravity that we're saying I don't know it's just a it's another force it's a force that we can we can tap into we can run it through electrical wires but when we ask what it is we don't know it's just another force it's a natural force the living force the same thing that makes our hearts tick and the conduits you know everything inside of our brains tick over together and electricity is basically another one of the work horses of the universe you know it's almost like a vortex energy which is the way water works the way air works and when it comes to earth well that's another matter altogether because that is matter that is matter so when you're asking what you then try to bring it into what makes things fall down well down again is a human construct we've got three basic elements in this three-dimensional world which are called the x y and z axis we've got yeah the forwards and backs we've got the left and right now whether what else you want to call them as and you've got the up and down and these are universal directions created in the mind of man to try and comprehend the realm upon in within which we live and you will notice you can do any sort of experiment you can lift up any object and let it go and it will always go down and that downward vector is simply the fact of matter is more material it is more dense is greater than the medium within which change if you left on the ground it won't move it will stay there but you apply a force to it so when you apply a force to an object it will react to that force and the dropping thing is just a reaction if you didn't move it it would stay there so all of these things that we say the up down movement of things is just the reaction of something applying a different force to it everything would stay static and wouldn't move at all if we didn't apply that force in the first place and that's pretty much what Newton was trying to tell us that an object at rest stays at rest an object in motion will stay in motion unless another force acts upon it and that force is resistance and that resistance comes from relative density of whatever it comes across an air having very little resistance let's it drop through it ground having a lot of resistance stops it and arrests it it brings it to rest that's the whole story of gravity that's the weight of the matter you say that you know there's earth which is the most dense and then you've got water which is less dense air which is the least dense well i guess i think in the greek system fire was the least dense but in any case you know what do you think of changes in state you know so water as a solid as ice you know water as steam as gas and other elements as well i mean don't you see like when you're saying that certain things are inherently more dense they're less dense like that and there's basically only four elements you mentioned i mean your name fe right iron isn't aren't there more elements than just those four and the dereject the periodic table no of course not you know the the elements of earth themselves as they've come to be called elementary their what's what's on you know there's what's and what's on you know i think uh shellock homes have a lot to say about that you know but basically of course the the the earth can be called elements if you want to break them into that but originally there's just those four elements that's how things started and yeah of course we can break down the constituents the and if you want to use the word atomic or molecular weight yeah i'm okay with that because every different element within that periodic table you know it's only periodic it's it's always in a constant structural change but generally speaking these things are constants and all these things have an atomic weight or a molecular weight and that is what this defines their density like we start with hydrogen it's the least dense then we've got helium that's a slightly more dense and that's why we have this gradient of density through things until we reach solids and when the solids are solid well there it's sort of immovable yeah i think the most dense liquid thing at normal room temperature would be mercury but as you mentioned with ice well ice is basically just the temperature of water but contrary to that too oh ironically even um when you heat it up it also expands and that is the basis of how a hot air balloon works in the density of the medium of air so if it's really nice and cool air and you inflate a balloon and you heat up all the air inside that balloon it will rise up so it becomes an anti-gravity device it's actually one of the the greatest arguments against gravity is that it's just relative density and my next best one of course is the siphon but it's so simple i won't even go into that at the moment because we're just talking about temperature of things so the temperature means volume and the mass per that volume and so because hot air expands it creates in the cold air environment because the cold air is fluid it will allow that balloon to rise up to a certain point and then as the external air heats up to a similar condition due to sunlight and whatnot it starts coming back down again whereas with ice it's cold and it does expand but it's too cold and it becomes a solid and a solid does not rise in a medium of air but if you had ice on liquid water the ice floats so it's the same sort of thing it's still a density and buoyancy thing it's the same molecular construct but the temperature of it when it's cold enough it will float on the water and in air it does the opposite thing so basically we've got this sea level sea level and that is the plane upon which we live and all of earth is measured as above sea level all of air is measured above sea level as it's gradient and as you go down underneath the sea you have a greater pressure gradient because you got more pressing down on you it's I think it's that is physics 101 is the amount of things the temperature things the density of things the relative density of one thing relative to another thing that explains why everything finds its place so do you believe that water is composed of oxygen and hydrogen apparently so because you can apply electrolysis to it and extract both those gases from it but as far as calling it H2O I think that's an oversimplification I think water itself is a unique compound in its own right in fact you know if you're really looking to things as far as I look into it as you know earth, air, fire and water these things are angels they're not separate well they're not it's hard to explain but each and every one of them in their own right exists unique unto itself and so water which can take on memory and whatnot I don't believe it you can simplify it into its chemical compounds just because you can extract some of them from it I believe there's far more to it things that we may not ever know in this particular existence but I mean okay all right I mean that's that's a pretty big question then it's like how even logically does that make sense to say that yes well water can be you know made up of hydrogen oxygen at the same time it can't be it's it's got to be its own thing through a mystery I mean that sounds like you're just asserting that because to you water is love and I mean that's a powerful metaphor again poetically I'm on board with you I love the the poetic image of water is love and in fact you know biblically water is life and so there's a lot of historically images of water as a metaphor for flowing and something that you can't quite grasp something you can't quite capture like what is love you know it's like water it's like you you try to put your hand in the ocean you try to take it grasp it with your hand it just slips out of your hand and so there's a lot of metaphors about water and love that I think are very interesting and and worth examining psychologically and poetically and I so I understand I guess your commitment to that metaphor but I guess I question if that is a reason to then take that into the realm of science I almost I would be happier for you to just say I don't care what science is I don't care what electrolysis is I'm actually surprised you didn't just say electrolysis is a conspiracy you know made up by the same scientists who invented space and all the other nonsense right so I'm even surprised by that like so I think you should just be consistently you know electrolysis is fake gravity is fake space is fake just ignore all of it and just stick with what is poetical that would be consistent to me don't you think yeah well that's a really humorous way of looking at things only because you know the things which are noticeably fake such as the invisible pulling force of mass you know well that is obviously fake because otherwise we're getting stuck to the wall all the time you know like the Cavendish experiment are the ground isn't strong enough to hold us down that friggin wall are sucking me to it bam oh shit that hurt you know there are certain things which we know to be truisms and when it comes to water that is one of those things which we know we can do electrolysis in water that's one of my favorite side interest at the moment is to try and create a hydrogen so that I can create a type of free energy vehicle that can waft around through the air using the power of wind to actually drive it into the wind this is one of my side you know things that I think about all the times of course I believe in the things that can be observed and repeated and tried for yourself and experimented with yes we can extract hydrogen out of water yes it does make a big boom boom if we'd like it it's one of those things and the more oxygen go to it the more it goes boom boom but if you try and light water it don't go boom boom so how can it just be H2O on its own there's something stopping it from going boom boom every time you put a a lighter to it but you separate those two things and then you combine them back together kaboom you've got a hydrogen bomb it's you know there are so many things in science that we simply do not know and are still discovering and we're basically I think in very much an iron age part of the pun as far as understanding how these things work we know we're just touching upon it we're at the forefront now of this knowledge of the way matter actually works interacts with one another we've been using electricity very crudely through electrical wires for for the last like hundred years whereas back in the day it's it's suggested that they had free energy there was free lighting and free heating everywhere with it was all wireless but we don't understand a part of that you know I think Nikola Tesla was trying to to hint us upon how it all works but he was just regarded as some crazy loony crackpot by the people who controlled the media the media tells the people how to think and where we've been for these last hundred years we've been told out of think by the media they are the ones controlling our minds mind control mind control what is control to govern to govern the the mind what is the mind mental mentality so government is controlling our minds and they've been doing this for so long and we are the result of countless we are at least three to four maybe longer generations of mind control who are telling us what to think how to think and who to disregard as a crackpot conspiracy theorist and Nikola Tesla was possibly one of the greatest scientists of our modern time and we're told to worship this freaking guy called Einstein who told us event times and space gives us some things that stick together over gravity you know like it's crazy but we still believe it because that's what we're taught in the schools I didn't get taught about Tesla in school were you taught about Tesla in school yeah Tesla was brought up I mean we didn't necessarily you know look at his plans for infinite energy as you know something that was realistic but I mean that was mentioned I did want to ask you about the concept of combustion what you believe the mechanism of combustion is because you basically have said that you know hydrogen can combust you know I think I hope you admit that oxygen is necessary for combustion but you know water doesn't combust so you know how would you explain combustion is it is it gas elements transforming into fire elements or what exactly is that process in your opinion I don't really have a professional opinion about that it's something that that happens if you apply a spark you know without the spark which is the energy which is some sort of electrical energy then that combustion just won't happen you know you can let the hydrogen and the oxygen waft off back into the air from which it came which is there as far as I'm concerned it's just the gaseous form of water and liquid petroleum gas if you put that into a bottle you an empty bottle but it's a solid container and the more you can press that into it say you just filled it half full or whatever you can then or you use it up in your barbecue for propane uses and then you can shake that bottle you can hear the liquid inside of it so obviously gas when sufficiently compressed will turn into a liquid and say what I'm thinking is what water is is sufficiently compressed air and you know it's it's in a volatile state it's constantly turning into air again into vapor and creating clouds and then it returns back down and becomes water again it's I don't really think that this whole idea of um being able to burn or you know to ignite the gases that they are necessary for the combustion of other gases and on their own they will ignite but what that is it's a bit like when you ask Neil deGrasse Tyson what is gravity we don't know but we can tell you what it does and what it does is it burns so yeah there's a lot of things we don't know okay well you know we do know why hydrogen is combustible and water isn't it's because combustion is a reaction with oxygen you know so the spark that you're talking about this initial energy that is causing a chain reaction in the hydrogen with oxygen releasing energy different energy states related to electron valence fields so you know you're just kind of boldly proclaiming here that we have no clue the mechanism of combustion there's no explanation for it it's just like you know water doesn't hydrogen does it's one of the great mysteries of life we actually do have an explanation for it um you know and well can I just say hydrogen combines with oxygen that creates fire but no it doesn't because it's water no I didn't say that I mentioned that if you have a spark what puts out the spark you're talking about if you have enough energy right so if you introduce energy so you can do this you know I guess the comic book example is you have a barrel full of gasoline and you shoot it although in all actuality that's not necessarily going to make it explode but if you if you have some kind of energy some kind of initial energy whether it's electrical energy or whether it's you know a small bit of fire whatever that is if you have some kind of introduction of energy also heat energy right so if you have a stove top if you have heat is sufficient enough heat you can light a piece of paper on fire what is that combustion well the the paper is hydrocarbons it's these chains of hydrocarbons that are then combusting they're igniting water doesn't do that right so water you can boil a pot of water but that water will not boil what you just said yeah you've introduced paper but we're talking about water here we're talking about H2O right that's this is what I'm trying to explain is that water doesn't catch fire because water is composed that it is H2O and so it's not reacting with oxygen in the same way that flammable materials are so when we talk about paper it's hydrocarbons when we talk about oil we're talking about hydrocarbons when we're talking about hydrogen gas right we're talking about substances that are basically conducive to reacting with oxygen given an initial you know spark of energy whether that's coming from heat electricity or whatever so you're implying though that if lightning fit water that's energy that's fire right this is what I'm trying to you're making my point for me you're making my point which is that no this is the point I'm trying to make is that that water because it is H2O is going to interact with oxygen much differently than hydrogen and it's going to interact with oxygen much differently than hydrocarbons so things that are flammable things that combust are able to react with oxygen but because H2O you know is is not reactive with oxygen in that way we say it's not combustible it doesn't produce fire fire is your you're essentially having in the case of hydrocarbons the reaction is that you have hydrogen bonded to to carbons and that then it reacts with oxygen and the result is it takes it it takes away the oxygen and it puts out CO2 so the carbon bonds to the oxygen creating CO2 and then you have this ash residue but it takes up oxygen and and you can see this with a candle right if you have a candle and you put a glass over your candle and you cut off its oxygen supply supply it the fire will go out because it needs that oxygen similarly the reason why we breathe in oxygen we exhale CO2 is actually because the combustion is going on inside our body in the metabolic process now it's not a fire on the grand scale of a of a big piece of wood on fire but on a molecular scale that's what's going on so you know in understanding of these kinds of like basic you know ninth grade biology type facts is important to bring up in this context of when you just wave your hands and say I only believe in the things that I can see and I only believe in the things that I can do and we just don't know what fire is and we don't know why water doesn't catch on fire hydrogen does well we do know that we know the mechanism of that and so when you admit that you don't know these things it implies to me that you know the kind of basis for just dismissing gravity as a hoax is a little bit shaky so you're basically just admitting you're just admitting that water is not H2O you know water is H2O because it's it's reactivity with oxygen so it's already bonded to the oxygen and so it's interacting with oxygen in a different way if we use electrolysis to separate the components of water they become highly flammable if not explosive correct you've just admitted that because they're no longer bonded together and what is electrolysis electrolysis is your your removing and actually requires a lot of energy and and part of the problem part of the problem with hydrogen fuel besides the fact that it's extremely flammable and we don't want to have cars that are kind of like little bombs driving around even though gasoline is flammable as well hydrogen gas extremely flammable very dangerous so electrolysis as a means for turning water into a fuel source is problematic not just because it's dangerous but because electrolysis requires a great deal of energy to remove that bond between the hydrogen and the oxygen and so once that bond is broken and you just have hydrogen oxygen separated from one another molecularly that is when the hydrogen is allowed to react with oxygen again in a combustion process but the the molecular binding together in water is what prevents that combustion process okay I just had a lot of word settled there that basically says that water is not it's gaseous components of hydrogen and oxygen it's something well there's no elements are not states this is this is the problem with your theory is elements are not states of matter so when you say hydrogen is a gas that's only true under certain conditions of temperature and of pressure and the same thing you have solid hydrogen have you got solid hydrogen you can if you cool hydrogen and in fact that is liquid hydrogen is used for fuel in those rockets that you think you understand the difference between solid liquid and gas oh absolutely you can get solid hydrogen it just has to be under very uh a low temperature or high pressure and you can do that you can just do that in your I don't have access to refrigeration that's going to cool down hydrogen to the necessary temperature and I also don't have a huge amount of energy in order to create the conditions of which you're talking about even though they're theoretically possible or in reality where we exist in here in this reality of you know the this earth with this temperature where everything exists where it exists it's not really possible is it yeah we can do that we can we're talking about every day observation when it comes to science we're not talking about theoretical things that we can do due to extreme circumstances of something that we've manufactured with great amounts of energy in order to change the problem which is basically what gravity boils down to is that gravity boils down to something that exists in here now at this reality of the things that are observable and repeatable and something that we can do here and now and so you know you're basically shooting yourself in the foot to say that if we go to extreme lengths and apply extreme amounts of energy we can prove a different state of matter of reality but reality just exists as it exists so so why would you even begin to to start with things you know water is not plammable if we use electrolysis that it does invoke applying energy to it it doesn't require a huge amount of energy you can use a small wattage something off your 12 volt battery in a car can create an electrolysis situation where you can separate the hydrogen from the oxygen and then recombine them to create combustion to drive your car it's pretty basically straightforward a lot of people do it if they try and share their information we get shut down because there are powers that be who don't like us talking about using free energy free energy surrounds us it's all around us and yet you know we're talking about then this energy which you're talking about which is the whole point of this debate of a magical invisible pulling force called gravity and I'm telling you it does not exist I'm just telling you there is no magical invisible pulling force of gravity due to attraction of mass the only thing that I'm still speaking the only thing that exists is resistance and that resistance is to something of a mass and that resistance force is an upward force if it has it at all if it doesn't have it then the thing falls straight down this is the whole meat and bones of the argument is that gravity does not exist it is a fantasy requirement of people who believe we live on a spinning ball that make things stick to the sides and to the underneath of it and to all around the side you know it's not just these sides it's the whole spherical body of it and that means that everybody is subject to this force at all times and it's complete and utter nonsense it's a requirement of believing in absolute fantasies that are anti science they are complete and utter pseudo science the only force you have is the observable physical resistance force to something which will fall down unless you can resist it and then it stops so you know we can go and talk about the flammability of gases as you know until the cows come home but the whole point of this is gravity is fake and people who believe in it are brainwashed into believing into absolute fantasies which are not a part of our reality okay you're say guys we got about 10 more minutes until we move into the q and a so send in those super chats now but i want to thank both iron horse and jockel for joining us and all right guys we are talking is gravity fake yes uh i wanted to ask you iron horse uh is magnetism an invisible magical force now magnetism is quite visible and it's quite repeatable and you can see if you hold a magnet and say you put it under a sheet of paper and you sprinkle some iron filings above it you can see how it's attracted to it until you reach a certain distance away which isn't very far it's only a few centimeters and the iron magnets will slide off the sheet of paper so it's not really a force it is an attractive force within that specific place like if you got two magnets together you can hold them all day i've spent a lot of time with magnets so i know a little bit about it and you can hold them here nothing here nothing here nothing here boom they clap together and they smash with great force so if you want to talk about a force like magnetism yes it is a very specific force and yes it has a very specific location and as soon as you enter into that magnetic realm of that force then bang it is going to be very very forceful and you're going to require a lot of force to pull them apart when we're talking about gravity oh yeah i can waft anything about here anything about there i can hit the ground i can lift it up there's no force of gravity that's a myth okay so what is the mechanism for magnetism what is the mechanism that produces the force of magnetism well it's obviously some highly electronic uh atomic attraction of things where the opposites attract one another you know nobody really knows the true explanation for the mechanisms of magnetism you know you could ask people to the cows come home nobody really knows but what they do know is that you can see it work you can see like if you put a magnet on the ground and you put one here with the similar poles to each other this one here will just float and it will float and float and float if you balance it accurately it'll be an anti-gravity device for all that time if you switch it around boom they click together again you know that nobody really knows exactly what that is but it's obviously to do with the um the molecular structure of the ions within the material because it only applies to certain things which are metallic such as iron and when they connect they connect strongly and they stick there's no such thing as just orbiting around in perpetual motion like the heliocentric model tells us that the earth does to the sun and the moon does to the earth and the sun does to the great attractor in the middle it's that later nonsense why is it okay that nobody knows what magnetism is but it's not okay that nobody knows what gravity is well because at least we can observe magnetism and see exactly how it works but when it comes to gravity we don't know what it is but we have to invent then another force even greater the dark matter one which i introduced you to in my opening statement this invisible force has to be 75 greater than gravity to stop everything from colliding into a singularity whereas with magnetism we don't need that we can just bring them close enough and bam they stick together and that's it yeah we don't need to invent invisible forces to stop them from doing that we just say as soon as they're close enough bang it works that's magnetism gravity is a man-made invention which needs something not even just 75 in some cases up to 95 to stop the entire universe colliding into a singularity if you believe in the heliocentric model yeah it's just like you keep using these terms like magical and invisible and i mean couldn't we apply the same thing to magnetism i guess is the question but maybe we'll move beyond that so you divide everything into you or yeah no we could we know that we know that's visible because we can see it you know that's the difference in science we record what we can see we don't believe in things we can't see so with magnetism we can see it we can see the results and effects of it with gravity we can't we invent other invisible forces that we can't see as well to make that thing so how do you know you can't just pass that you can't just brush over that you you have to admit that the visible things uh science the indivisible thing of pseudoscience how do you explain uh the coincidence of the tides following the movements of the moon oh very easily please go ahead oh you like me to elaborate okay say say you got a straw you've got a straw right you got a glass of water and and you hold the straw just above the glass of water and you suck as hard as you can that water does not move whatsoever and that proves that you cannot pull water now you do the same thing but you blow on that water that water can easily be repelled and so as far as i'm concerned you know i i don't have a lot of consensus with this i'm on my own as far as the flat earth cosmology goes with this but my attitude towards what the moon is it's an artificial construct here on earth and the force that holds it aloft and it goes around 50 minutes slower per day than the sun that very force is a diamagnetic force and the diamagnetic force is repulsive and so what it's basically doing from way up high like at least 70 miles is diametrically pushing or diamagnetically so pushing against the oceans and spreading them out on its daily path as it goes around us and of course when it reaches a continent it's pushed the water as far as it can and then it continues on its path that water then flows back and that creates the secondary high tide so we've got a repellent force is what's recreating the tides the globe itself says it's gravity it says that this moon is just pulling the oceans as i just showed you if the straw you cannot pull water you can easily repel it but you cannot pull push it um you cannot pull it you can it's easy to repel so the the splash back effect then will create the secondary high tide on the globe with one moon with one mass going around approximately every 25 hours you will just have one massive high tide on the side of the moon and a massive low tide on the back side but we've got two high and two low tides every day on the flat stationary planariff and that is because the moon is having this very gentle effect it only moves the massive trillions and billions of mega liters they are approximately one to two meters and it will have delayed effects in other places according to the geographical things but the tides can only be explained by something repelling the water ahead of it which i've personally witnessed multiple times so you said that the straw experiment proves that water cannot be pulled what if i take a straw and i start sucking above a magnet and the magnet is not pulled does that prove magnets can't be pulled well for one thing i don't think magnets are fluid or liquid to start with we're talking about the liquid oceans so um so you're saying uh there's no such thing as a liquid magnet oh i'm sure you can have something that resembles a liquid but yeah probably not no like mercury is probably the only liquid metal that we know about and i don't think it can be magnetized proof me wrong right so when you're when you're saying that things can't be sucked i mean obviously when you suck on a straw you're you're sucking in the air and so the air is being pulled up through the straw if instead there was liquid in that straw the liquid be pulled up through the straw if there was a mixture of you know water and sand that you'd be pulling a mixture of that so the idea of an upward force being applied the idea that the moon is somehow a big straw i mean what what do you think the shape of the do you think the moon is a sphere or a ball or do you think it's flat what kind of shape does it have well okay you're jumping all around the place and yeah i think we'll we'll go back to you your first thing first we'll say iron after you answer that question i think it'll be a good time for us to naturally move into some fun q and a and we'll get some new ideas for our audience no worries amy um yeah basically we started with the whole idea of a straw sucking and the straw sucking is i think the perfect example of how gravity is such a weak force it's not existent because you can just use a little suction on a straw and that water or soda whatever you've got in your straw is going to become anti-gravity you're just and it's going straight into you you need very little force whatsoever to overcome the force of gravity as we believe that something 238 000 miles away is pulling trillions and trillions of tons of ocean around um a simple straw that's the the simplest form of the siphon because inside of you you have a water level and you've got a vacuum for you know with a vacuum force we exist under air pressure so if you use a vacuum say to siphon some water out of a fish tank you can send that tube yeah it can only be a tiny little tube don't sv 12 millimeters hasty is a 40 millimeter one to get it done really fast but you can run a tube and you can run it up several stories of height and so long as the bottom end of that is lower than your initial source of where the water was that water itself is creating a vacuum inside that tube and that is the siphon effect and that siphon is so anti-gravity apparently somebody's done it up to as much as 13 stories high i don't know what that is in meters or feet or whatever but it's pretty bloody high that is an anti-gravity device of water going against the force of gravity if that's such a thing as much as it wants to simply because it is seeking its own level so to think that the moon which has no tube has no straw it has nothing except a lot of empty space hundreds of thousands of miles away is somehow pulling water against earth's own gravity which is apparently what's holding the moon in place in the first place then you've really got nothing you've got nothing gravity is the most fakest thing ever a vacuum force is extremely strong which you can see with just the tiniest little vacuum tube as much as a little straw and sorry gravity is fake that discussion is over let's get out of the questions and answers and all right we'll give you a chance to have closing statements at the very end but we are moving into about 40 minutes of q and a this is a chance for you to send your questions to either or both of our interlocutors iron whore iron and jockel also super chats are turned on and they will move your questions to the front of the line so remember folks don't forget to like and subscribe and with that let the fun begin from a five dollar super chat from jim bob deep left where in cavendish is gravity isolated as an independent variable cavendish where okay cavendish yeah so we've got two parts to the cavendish experience you have the the physical you know set up where you have like a pole ruler something suspended from a string and then you've got these two weights on either end so we're we're measuring kind of over time the oscillation of this system you know it's kind of moving back and forth randomly and then you place in you place in a weight like a concrete block or a bowling ball next to those that system and you can see how the system stops oscillating randomly and it's clearly attracted to that mass and so it's the acceleration of that system that is the output that's the the dependent variable and the independent is the system itself the setup that yeah thank you so much and five dollar super chat from jasua larson nibba talmott them vibrations nibba talmott them vibrations yeah that went over my head quite here yeah something about vibrations if you would like to resend that jasua and we're not getting something here feel free to tag me in chat at amy newman if not we thank you for the support jasua five dollar super chat from mr monster the great oceanic currents including the Antarctic ocean current proves that earth is a globe you cannot have ocean currents on a flat plane well that's ridiculous absolutely ridiculous of course you're going to have ocean currents because on the flat plane yeah we're not talking about a tiny little model as the globes like to believe everything yeah they they live for their little classroom models and everything just revolves around at the tilt of 66.6 degrees and that all works out your peachy clean and shit no in reality the earth is massive we've got something I would think at least 80 000 mile circumference where the Antarctic ice wall is and the equator being about 25 000 miles that is the place where the sun goes around us every day and of course it gets higher and lower to give us the seasons but basically all the heat comes from the light into the oceans and of course that's going to create oceanic currents because heat rises and cold air sinks that that is just a basic given of anything in physics is that heat rises cold air sinks and so what happens when something rises is something has to move into fields place and that is what creates currents because the sun is going around us that is going to create the pattern of our currents that's very very straightforward five dollar super chat from Jim Bob deep left what are the properties of spacetime such that it can be bent the term bent is you know basically a metaphor you know that I think F.E. mentioned earlier three dimensions x y z uh spatially but then we also have dimensions of time and we have dimensions of energy you know in in a model or a system you could think of color as a dimension you know on that color spectrum so you know anything can be a dimension and then as we measure reality we measure different forces and reality directionality and we say that something is bent well it's kind of a model everyone's probably seeing the bowling ball model where it's like you have a bed you put a bowling ball on it and then things kind of roll toward the lowest point that's basically a mathematical model and a metaphor that helps us understand how gravity can be modeled that doesn't really again in the immediate kind of naive empiricism that flat earth would want you're not you're not going to see that type of bending although you know we we do you know look at black holes and we see light bending in that way but that's not really the same thing that we mean when we say spacetime is bent by gravity I think the word bent here as a you know a physical term that we use every like you bend you know a piece of metal it's not really what's mean meant we should really just say affected right and and you have a certain model just like we have an atomic model where we have a nucleus and we have an electron cloud everyone's seen like the spinning electrons and the nucleus doesn't adam actually look like that no and adam is mostly empty space but we have these pictures and models that are used to explain through imagery phenomena that are happening thank you and a five dollar super chat from g j m p t w occupants of the zero g plane become weightless when the plane takes a dive the cabin is sealed and the air density remains constant explain fluriffs that is absolutely 100 wrong wrong wrong they did not become weightless they are simply just dropping to their mass in the medium of air at the same speed as the surroundings surrounding them which is the plane everything of a mass drops at the same speed people take air resistance through the medium of air so they're not weightless but how do you determine weight what you need to determine weight is a scale and how does a scale work a scale only works because it is placed on the non moving ground you have to have that resistant force from beneath in the first place in order to determine a weight so if everything is dropping at the same time including the scale it will appear weightless but that doesn't mean that it is weightless to think that it is weightless that's a mental deficiency in the person who believes in such a thing your mass has remained the same the entire time and so to call it anti gravity simply because you've lost the ability to measure the weight that is also a mental deficiency of somebody who really doesn't have a good grasp on reality five dollar super chat from oflamo iron horse why can you see the sun from your house and i can't a planet is in my line of sight the one we're sitting on the edge of um well that's a bit of a trick question there i think the reason you can't see it from my house is because you're not here at my house yeah i can see it from my house because i am at my house but the reason you can't um i i hope you can ask me that second part of that question again because i was the paid five bucks sure and it it might have been i'm not a hundred percent if there was supposed to be a period here or it wasn't but there is so i'll say it like it's written a planet is in my line of sight the one we are sitting on the edge of yeah no i've got nothing there i think you might be talking about the horizon which doesn't prove anything other than perspective and distance and the laws of convergence but if he's talking about looking at another planet obviously you can only see them at night um they're still just wandering stars they don't prove anything about the ground beneath us so yeah i think we can move on uh a super question i think from membership which you can become a membership here on modern days of bait from sunflower jockel is truth more important than happiness it's an interesting question i mean i could go on for an hour about the nature of happiness i mean happiness uh probably the most simple definition is when we feel good the truth doesn't always make us feel good in the moment um but you know if we assume and it's probably a big assumption we'd have to go into shopenhauer and you know all sorts of religious pessimism to criticize this but if we just assume that happiness to feel any happiness at all we have to be alive and to be alive we have to align ourselves at some point with truth that if we stray too far with the truth we're out of sync with reality we're going to we're going to die then ultimately happiness relies upon truth however um you know truth doesn't necessarily rely on whether something makes you happy or not at least not in the moment and all right five dollar super chat from mr monster in a vacuum with no air a feather and a bowling ball will fall at the same rate because gravity is acting upon them with the same force no no what's what's reacting upon them is non-reaction there is no reaction so in a vacuum you've got no resistance in air you've got a little bit of resistance most things appear to drop at the same rate but obviously a balloon won't drop us the same rate as a you know a brick but you put them into a vacuum assuming the balloon is just full of air um well first of all the balloon will expand and pop because air cannot exist in a vacuum it just doesn't exist in a vacuum you will not be able to have it so let's say we have an empty balloon and a brick and in a vacuum you can drop them and they will fall at the same rate because you've got zero resistance until the place of resistance which is the floor of the of the vacuum chamber you can't have a vacuum without a chamber and to have that chamber you need seriously strong solid sides massive pumps to pump the air out massive seals and a whole heap of complicated things to allow a vacuum state to exist which is not just a natural state wafting around the outside of the earth but let's use another example and let's say we have a empty balloon and a brick and we put some helium inside the balloon we have added mass to the balloon let's forget the vacuum chamber for a second yeah we're just in the outside environment you can still drop the empty balloon and the brick and they'll fall at the same rate let's just go out into our normal atmosphere because creating a vacuum chamber you can only you can't breathe in there yeah all your blood and your liquids will boil at room temperature you won't survive for more than a couple of seconds you'll pass out pretty much instantly so we're just in our normal environment we've got the balloon the brick they drop now let's fill the balloon with more mass but this mass is helium and we tie a knot in it we seal it off and now this balloon has more mass than it had to begin with and you got your brick now the the balloon should just sort of drop slightly less faster than the brick but no the balloon oh it shoots up why relative density to the environment within which it's in that the atmosphere it is a lot less dense now the brick still drops at exactly the same rate so it's all relative density relative to the medium with it within within which it's in $10 super chat from Robert let's come iron horse just because you don't understand something doesn't make it false professional scientists who do this for a living i've worked out all the details for you okay well i actually came across a very interesting meme just recently you know i know we don't live by memes or whatever but the best one was and was specifically told that a scientist follows the money he's not going to go out and do an experiment for the hell of it to get his name into a book he's going to go out and do an experiment where the money is and so this meme showed a scientist with a you know an eyepiece to a wad of money and that is what scientists scientists is all about they're following the money they don't give a damn about the truth they just want to get a paycheck at the end of the day and so they can all go and take a flying up the wherever it goes because they are a bunch of liars they're following the money they're sellouts there's no such thing as a true scientist today until you look at somebody like a flat earth we have the true scientists of today thank you and thank you so very much robert but a five dollars super chat from majolin majolin ih it's the case that you presuppose iron horse it's the case that you presuppose flat earth and anything contrary to that you reinvent if two plus two equaled four show the earth is round you would say it would equal five yeah but two plus two doesn't equal four when you start to use perspective and this is a very interesting part of perspective because if i look out into the distance right say i'm looking across into the distance say that's my horizon there because that's where my eyes are this part here could be three this part here could be two this part here could be one and this part here could be you know less and less and less and the more you're looking into the distance all of a sudden you are looking into this tiny little infinite space which might be 500 but this part down here which was one seems to be much bigger than the part that's 500 you cannot use uh perspective and mathematics yeah the two plus two equals four because two plus two doesn't always equal four if you're talking about perspective perspective means things get smaller in the distance you're seeing a lot more distance in this amount of space than you're seeing in this amount of space as opposed to this amount of space so anybody who thinks that you can use simple simple geometry simple mathematics to explain the nature of reality as we see it well they're just insane they haven't really gone outside and experimented and seen the world as we see it five dollar super chat from Cole Beasley give me your dealer's number you got some good stuff i need that stuff bro there's my dealer we're making connections tonight thank you so very much Cole and a two dollars super chat from mr monster how does the Coriolis effect work on the flatter well basically the Coriolis effect doesn't work it doesn't do any work what the Coriolis effect only applies to is our weather patterns weather patterns spiral clockwise one direction in one part of the hemisphere i can't even remember i'll stop here now one side of the equator and anti-clockwise the other side of the equator i think it's clockwise south of the equator either way that's because the sun goes around the equator daily and the heat of that sun creates an effect where the light draws heat up and therefore moisture and that is what creates our weather we have weather here on the flat earth believe it or not yeah flat earth actually has weather and these things are going in opposite directions because one is a high pressure system one is a low pressure system and the low pressure basically draws more moisture up as as simple as you know if you go up to a mountain water will boil at a lower temperature than it does lower down and so when you got low pressure the water moisture builds up much faster and because the sun goes a particular direction which is clockwise if you're looking down upon the plain earth that the weather systems will follow that pattern and it's a little bit like the butterfly effect once the thing is in motion it's the same as water going down a drain once you start the water going a particular direction it'll keep going down that direction down the drain doesn't matter which hemisphere you're in you can do the same with the water and start at the other direction and it will continue going in that direction that is fluid dynamics and the weather follows fluid dynamics there's nothing else affecting it except for the sun itself and so the sun as it goes around daily that is what creates the weather systems going opposite directions there's no other coriolis effect apart from what we see in the weather systems which is what our tropical storms tropical cyclones um i think you call them hurricanes or something on the northern side that is what affects them and if for some reason one of them happens to wander across that equatorial belt the next day is the sun comes around it will quickly diminish it because all the heat is going the opposite way and as soon as these things hit land mass bam well they stop sucking moisture up it's all about the moisture and water that's what creates this a tropical cyclone for anybody who's a real meteorologist you'll know that as soon as a cyclone hits land mass it stops its power it loses it because it's no longer drawing moisture up out of the warmed up ocean through a low pressure system to create a massive weather storm the rain dissipates it slowly stops that's that's the coriolis effect there's nothing else to coriolis apart from that if there was you could just send a hot air balloon up into the air for one hour and it would land a thousand miles to the west but that never happens thank you so very much and two dollars super chat again from mr monster how do ocean currents work on the flat earth same sort of deal it's just the the the differentiation you know hot air rises hot water rises everything rises and as it rises it displaces that which is beneath it and cold air has to or cold water and moves into replace it and so it does the same thing with the ocean currents as it does with the air currents no different five dollars super chat from blind mason joggle what does deep left mean does it have something to do with the depth of the earth disc i think it does now i think after this debate i mean i have to add that to the list of meanings of deep left but uh it's basically you know again i i had mentioned earlier this question i had of why is so much art left wing versus right wing i also had this question of why is it that uh the left continues to win basically every you know from the origin of the term left wing in the french revolution even before in the english revolution why does the left wing always win versus the right and i think that requires a class analysis of what i call the the tripartite system of war your priest and merchant so that's the intro to the deep left you can learn more about that on my channel thank you so very much jockel and the question from blind mason but five dollars super chat from brad wegener to ross iron how much helium did the giants pump in them to the moon to make it float sufficient there we go thank you so very much brad and another five dollar super chat from rhomboid flat earth ozzy iron what's your explanation for an observably spherical moon with craters on all parts of its surface and nothing falling off the bottom uh well i'd suggest that i mean if something did land on the bottom it would fall off so of course it appears like a spear because we can see the shadows and we can see the craters which i believe are actually bubbles burst into the molten surface as it was created and as it rose up and rapidly cooled and so a lot of those bubbles set in place as we see so um if anything was to actually land on the moon um even a speck of dust or a moth or a loon lander it would just drop straight back down to earth due to the laws of density and buoyancy and a final super chat before we move into some questions from the audience so if you want your burning desire question pushed right to the front now is the time to send in your super chats but decepticons forever five dollar super chats thank you so much ask just want to reiterate in ozzy is basking in the sunlight telling north americans the earth is flat as a bedtime story on live stream yeah well this is exactly how the flat earth model works you know we see the earth as a really really really big you know if you want to think of it as a space pizza you know go ahead and think of it as that we don't think it's in space we think it's the only physical plane at the bottom of the earth but it is more or less divided up as a pizza and you can think of that pizza as a clock face and right in the middle of that clock face is where the hour hand extends out from it and on that hour hand is the sun and the sun goes around the equatorial belt once every 24 hours and so everywhere where it's particularly above which is there's a couple of hours ago here now it's it's almost three o'clock here now but everywhere where the sun is particularly above that is your local 12 midday and that is why we have time zones on the plane of earth it's basically spread out you know i could share an image or a meme whatever the show exactly how that works but basically that hour hand is the clock and that is why we get 24 hours in every single day it just goes around the around Polaris around the equatorial belt and wherever it's directly above is their current 12 midday and as it moves 15 degrees per hour eventually after 24 of them it's done 360 degrees and so the flat earth model makes far more sense and i'm going to go into this just a tiny little bit more in the depth because if we were on a spinning ball in outer space hurtling around the sun then if we're using a physical measurable mechanical clock that only measures 24 hours per day that is a fixed amount of time then we would have to adjust that clock because every day we're going around the sun you know instead of the sun going around above us then that clock that that that our earth is going to be out by about a degree every single day and so if you don't adjust the clock by about four minutes per day which is one degree then eventually in six months time when you're on the other side of the sun then your 12 midday according to a fixed clock is looking directly away from the sun in the middle of the night so midnight and midday has swapped places and that is a mathematical and logical fact that disproves the heliocentric model 100 percent it can only work because the sun is rotating about around above us at exactly 24 hours per day thanks for the question thank you so much for the super chat septicons forever and with that we are going to move into some normal questions like stone zebra six six six s shoot a bullet straight it falls right when you hit a target from a long distance you have to calculate for bullet drop right gravity proven yeah that's just basically resistance everything has resistance and that resistance is the medium of air there's no such thing as the Coriolis effect there's no such thing as gravity it's just resistance in the medium and if you're going to shoot far and up away you have to take that into account that that bullet or ball or whatever you're shooting is going to drop a certain amount over that period of time due to the resistance of air question from brass man why towards the ground though air would be less dense upward so shouldn't the hammer go up instead because that's where the least resistance that's where there's because oh god it's the relationship or relative density of one thing to another and so if you want to get lifted up you need something of more resistance to push you up something of less resistance is not going to allow you to go up it's going to allow you to drop so the least resistant place is going to take you through the part of least resistance to the place of most resistance something less resistant higher up is not going to give you that lifting force that you expect you would get for reasons i don't know because something more dense falls through the thing of less density not gets lifted up by the thing of less density question from bo smith then what causes the dropping why wouldn't it float or something else lack of resistance question from john edwards is the sun flat probably not question from extra j iron horse yeah gravity pulls air towards the surface how is this confusing for you no it doesn't gravity doesn't pull air to the surface at all you can go up for miles and miles and still be in air how can you say it's pulling at the surface there's pulling the surface i'd have to get down on my hands and knees in order to be able to breathe what a ridiculous concept air molecules have no attraction of mass to to the mass of the earth whatsoever they've waft up as far as as much as they want that's why we have winds that's the most ridiculous concept i've ever heard to say that air is attracted to earth because of gravity that's the most crazy crazy crazy nation i've ever heard you only get to a certain point because there's less of it and you can't breathe so much but yeah if it was attracted to earth we'd have to get down our hands and knees and suck off off the ground just to be able to breathe stupid question from puttyfoot if gravity is fake why does the cavendish experiment work it doesn't work what what do you mean by work work means an application of energy if you're applying energy then as soon as you release those balls in in the dangling you know apparatus that you use in the the caveman dish experiment those balls should instantly go towards those other balls but no sometimes you know there's a lot of scientists who who hate the cavendish experiment who are trying to teach it in college they hate it because it doesn't always work it takes a lot of work to make it work and more often than not it doesn't you know every now and then you're going to get this attraction of something in motion it's just going to come to rest against something that's more solid than it and oh we've just proved gravity no it's just it's just basic laws of emotion that's all you're seeing yeah just to think that that's an attraction of mass you got no brains up here to think that that caveman dish experiment proves attraction of mass five dollar super chat from ozine moving right to the front of the line is buoyancy in attractive or repellent force buoyancy is basically um it is repellent but the word the specific word is it for it is resistance it's a resistant force it's resistant due to the relative density of the medium so buoyancy is generally applied to something in a liquid and so in a liquid say the water which is our general one you're more buoyant in salt water because salt water is more dense than fresh water so it's a buoyancy effect is due to the resistance due to relative density you know if you try to suspend an iron anvil in a medium of purified water boom straight to the bottom you put in salt water slowly sinks down a little bit slower only you put it into a medium of mercury which is a liquid metal and it floats it's all about relative density it's got nothing to do with some invisible pulling force due to the mass of the earth you know it's that's the most unscientific thinking ever to think that the mass of the earth is the reason why things fall down it's the relative density of the medium that's in question from a guy tori what's the other side of a flat earth look like the same as this side you know i mean what do you what do you call a side you know to assume that there's a an underside of something well yeah that's something you have to prove in the first place when we think of the other side i think well the other side of the equator it appears different we can see different stars because we traveled further yeah the other side you know that's a nonsensical question because you assume that we live on a spinning ball in the first place or what's on the other side of the spinning ball more space what's on the underside of a physical plane well we can only go down as far as eight miles that's the maximum we've ever been able to drill down through those the russians at this um some yeah i don't remember every little trivial detail but they can go down almost eight miles and they reach a position at that depth we cannot go any further and that's eight miles you know that's not even a scratch on the surface of the the crust of this spherical ball that's we believe in so when we say we're on a flat plane as far as we can say this is the only physical plane at the bottom of the known universe what's beneath us i think we're better off not finding out thank you so very much and ozine asks another five dollar super chat resistance is not a force it slows down where it stops the effects of a force of course resistance is the force resistance is the only force that's the only force at all you know yeah just ask newton newton said that a thing in motion stays in motion unless another force reacts against it so if something's in motion it'll just stay in motion unless you've got resistance resistance is that force that stops it as like pretty simple i mean if you jumped off a building you could continuously fall for perpetuity through the infinite vacuum of space but you're going to meet the force of resistance when you hit physical solar matter and that might do you some damage so i recommend you don't do that because the resistant force is very forceful and that is the force resistance the force is resistance may the force be with you i guess in this moment of silence i'll just chime in that uh is magnetism resistance you said all resistance is force all force is resistance is magnetism resistance magnetism is attraction that that is different because it's magnetism and magnetism is an electrical coherent force of things that attract to one another it's um it'll still suffer the same effects of resistance like if you put something between you you know that will still resist yeah the magnets from attracting to one another that's why we use them in a fish tank to clean the glass because there's sufficient resistance between them to to rub them around to to clean the glass and that force of attraction which is magnetism but magnetism is not something that i see in everyday life with every other thing like every magnetic or metallic thing was somehow attracted to the earth like we wouldn't be able to drive our car you know all the metal would just go bang smack clear we can't move you know magnetism and attraction of due to mass completely different things two dollar super chat from why kick a moo cow 855 ross how did giants build the moon uh i would suggest that they probably melted the raw materials from some sort of great source something that you know as a suggestion might look a little bit like the grand canyon like i don't know that's just the first thing that came to mind where you're going to attain such a great massive materials and i'd say they they must have used some sort of great furnace to smelt those raw materials which i don't know something like yellowstone national park that might be a sufficient sort of smelting point to you know smelt them yeah i don't know all i'm suggesting is that i have my own uh proposal for how the moon came into existence and i haven't seen a better one come from mainstream scientists so i just put my proposal out there to see if it can be debunked and yeah if it can be debunked with a better proposal for why all the craters just look like bubbles burst on the surface and so forth yeah i'm happy to hear it but to this day all I've heard is only people attack me as a person for proposing it as opposed to attacking the actual argument and yeah as far as i'm going to say and i think it was smelted it was made here on earth by some mad mind genius somebody who was trying to say impersonate the sun and possibly even give us you know a perpetual sunlight through the night so that we don't have to suffer darkness yeah they may have had good intentions yeah who would know but yeah so as i'm going to say it was made here on earth by somebody with some intelligent sort of intention for whatever purposes and thank you so very much why kikamukau but a ten dollar super chat from ozen electrical current is determined by the amount of force called voltage divided by the amount of resistance in buoyancy what is the resistance and what is the force well it's certainly not a couple wire to start with you know an electrical force has the resistance due to the the medium through which it's propagating through so yeah you can't really compare one and the same we know the resistance force of air which is next to nothing we drop something it breaks oh bugger but you know if we send a charge through an electrical wire well the bigger the wire or the bigger the conductivity of it well the greater the charge we can send through it i just don't see how there's any comparisons from the two unless you can just ask that question one more time because i might have missed exactly what he was getting at absolutely a ten dollar super chat from ozen thank you so much for the support and electrical current is determined by the amount of force called voltage divided by the amount of resistance in buoyancy what is the resistance and what is the force okay yeah yeah well the resistance is basically the relative density of the medium as opposed to the mass yeah the mass or the weight the gravity the the weight of the object has resistance as opposed to the medium and that's a very interesting thing too which i'll just briefly touch upon since it doesn't seem to be a lot of questions coming through is that you can take an iron ball you know an iron ball and it will drop through the medium of water rather rapidly you know we will hit at the same speed as a rubber ball drop from a bridge because that's through the medium of air but in the medium of water because it has a greater density it will continue to drop while the rubber ball floats but if you took that same iron ball and you beat it flat and smashed it in a shape and built it into a ship and that ship is now containing a lot of air and it will float so it has now got buoyancy because it's containing air now if you replace that air with the medium of water it will sink again so this is the whole point of relative density and buoyancy is how much it can contain from the beneathness of something you know i don't know if there's a better word for it you know from whatever everything finds its level you know it's volume you know you turn the volume of music and down you turn the volume of music up does that mean it's going up or the music is going down i know it's just the volume and so the volume of air in a particular medium or the volume of water in a particular medium determines up and down its density and buoyancy or as we call it the energy of frequency and vibration as Tesla told us question from c4 i wonder what it would look like if you plotted these subsolar points of many people going from the u.s to china and the u.s to the tip of south america huh what would that show i think that's a great question and and i would like to see the same sort of thing but what i'd also like to see you know at the same time is if let's say for example you know we weren't exactly in the biggest frozen lake in the world like bakal in russia uh say we're just down there a normal frozen lake and it's a big lake and we're looking up through the lake and we're seeing the sun through the ice and we see a hot spot hot spot apparition of the sun and we think oh that's the sun and then we've got another fish you know like 500 meters away and he's looking up through that same ice to a completely different part of the ice and he looks up and goes oh that's our sun that's our hot spot apparition sun and that is the sun now we're basically doing the same thing on a planetary scale the ones in the better way we're doing the same thing by looking up at something through something we don't even know what it is we're looking up at through the firmament and so when we see a hot spot apparition you know if we're to do that somewhere on the same latitude which is the same distance from Polaris and then we go a distant distant from Polaris there's we're going to see a different angle of shadows and whatnot but we're not going to see where the sun itself is which is way above this layer of ice through which we're looking at looking through it and thinking that that is the sun you know it's as silly as the fish thinking that they're able to determine the distance of the sun through looking at it through a layer which gives them a personal apparition of what they're looking at and all right guys we're gonna do a few more questions and then we're gonna wrap it up for the night with closing statements but I want to send a lot of love to iron to both of our interlocutors with us tonight both iron and jockel as we have been looking at is gravity fake and question from are in Reese but why does a more dense item go down and not up it has a 50 chance of going either direction the very concept of thinking that something less dense is going to give you more resistance than something more dense is insanity please stop asking that same question you go to the place of the most resistance which is the ground question from s astin explain why rain falls because it's more dense than air it's it's quite simple you know when water um coagulates or coalesces or condenses into moisture again yeah it's gone from the gaseous state due to density you know and temperature and um condenses into something of a mass then of course it becomes more dense than the air surrounding it so it falls very very simple five dollar super chat from ozen work is the force divided by the resistance to that force mass and relative density is the resistance what force is moving it up and down well again it's just relative density you know if you're more dense thank you so very much ozen two dollar super chat from mr monster what are stars made of according to flatter relative density to its surroundings well was that the answer to the force is moving up and down or to what stars are made of because they there's that up and down okay had a second a lag at the very end uh for what force is moving up and down then two dollar super chat from mr monster what are stars made of according to flatter well nobody knows what stars are made of because they're in a a realm above us you know we we could conjecture you know use conjecture to to consider perhaps they are sonar luminescence and sonar luminescence means uh a sound or vibratory frequency which is again is what nicola tester told us is that everything in the universe in order to understand is vibration and frequency and energy and so you know you might even say if you're that way inclined to say well it's the choir of the angels you know if the angels are singing you know maybe they exist on a completely different vibratory frequency from us so what we think it was singing yeah well we might see sometimes a great singer might break a glass but these things these higher aspects of where we've come from are able to vibrate at such a high frequency that they can create this sonar luminescence which is why the stars sparkle and create this frequency of light into our realm like i'm not saying that is the reason but that is what i can consider one of the greater understandings of why we say them it is literally the choir of the angels each one singing at their own frequency we got three questions left steve frenzy what are can take on memory and oh these are two different people steve frenzy ask what are can take on memory yeah yeah absolutely um because water takes on vibrancy and vibration and frequency and so as soon as you imbue it with a certain frequency you remember that you know it's just that that is why we have memory you know if we dehydrated our brain for example we would have no memory we'd be dead but because we have water and fluids and so forth flowing through us we can take on memories and so the memory is contained within water itself and you can imbue that you can give it positive energy we can give it negative energy but water absolutely is the frequency of memory if we lost all our water on the earth you know for one thing there'd be nobody left to live and there'd be no memory so we've lost it all so just wiped clean slate just like the surface of the moon so water is absolutely the key to our understanding of vibrancy so my neighbor's got his normal again um we've got vibration and frequency according to the molecular structure of the water of which we are made of which is our very main thank you so very much colorado biker asked the same thing about memory so we'll put those together and go john rap asked he says good day girl what is up a question for both a one kilogram weight on a scale registers one kilogram push on that scale with your hand until it reads one kilogram you are applying a force what is the weight applying yeah if this is for both it's applying a force force of the mass with the force uh mass of the earth mass of the object creates a force downward force attracting them together your hand pushing creates a force there you go okay well my answer will be is that um your hand is applying a force because your your hand has mass and you are applying energy if you wish to say that but you can stop applying a amount of energy like if you kept on the person you would measure more than one kilogram so mass itself has weight and so weight itself is the force and that is what gravity literally translates as is weight so the only force of attraction is weight and that only has weight by putting the scale on the side of the wall or on the ceiling you have to put it beneath that because it's always a downward direction so the reason why we can measure weight is because it is a downward force and it is its own force it is not due to the attraction of mass because if it was then a larger mass would be more attractive towards the earth faster than a smaller mass and yet we know for a fact that all masses drop in the same rate in the medium of air with the same amount of resistance at exactly the same rate that was not attractive force it is simply the way of things the nature of reality and all right the last question of the night and send in love to all of you who sent your questions in but a five dollar super chat from free life taz asks how do flurfs explain moon phases well as flurfs we've played moon phases but it's a simple fact you know if we've got a 24 hour clock as we consider the sun to be rotating around us to give us our 24 different time zones well the moon is doing something similar only it's a little bit slower and it takes 15 minutes per day slower to go around us and they're both basically in exactly the same time and space as we can see them from our point of view they're almost identical and so when we see a full moon that is always going to rise we saw it just two nights ago but these people who are naturally aware and know where they live and are aware of their surroundings the full moon rose about two nights ago and when it rose it was exactly at some set and why is because the sun and moon are diametrically opposite one another and then the next night last night the moon rose 50 minutes later because it's delayed by that much so we see what appears to be almost a full moon it's 50 minutes below and 50 minutes is quite a big amount of time so by today when I saw it setting this morning quite early um it's it's not even a full moon at all it was it was quite you know in shape and and that is exactly how the phases work is that the sun is always shining on the moon it's always a full moon but how we see it from down here you know looking up at it as it goes around 50 minutes slower we're just seeing less and less of the lit side and it only takes a week and well it's a half moon another week it's a new moon the moon's or the summer that actually caught up to the moon so it's a new moon phase and sometimes they line up so perfectly it gives us a a solar eclipse yeah the moon will actually pass in front of the sun and then the next night oh we see a little tiny sliver of moon and so on and so forth and another week another half moon it just keeps going around and around moon phases are quite easily logical and explainable on a flat stationary plane of earth as long as you understand how perspective works and when you're looking up at something very high we're only looking up at the very bottom of the moon at all times and the only time we ever see it fully illuminated is when the sun and moon opposite one another new moon there together month after month after month phases make a lot of sense on a stationary plane of earth a two-dollar super chat from ozen snuck in at the last second he asked where do space rocks come from what's a space rock and there we have it ladies and gentlemen i want to thank both iron horse and jockel and i am going to now hand it over to them for their closing statements and where can we find you guys passing that ball right over to you iron it was lovely having you on tonight oh thank you amy i i believe jockel could go first since he started first but um up to you mate sure so then in that case jockel i'm gonna hand it over to you and let you have your closing statement sure uh you can find me on twitter at jockel j-o-k-k-u-l-l on youtube it's 1l deep left jockel um i don't ever do content like this so i'm getting out of my comfort zone here but i wish i did unfortunately you know technical issues i was trying to lure the conversation away from the physical facts and logic sort of stuff into epistemology why do we believe what we believe for aesthetical reasons uh for ultimately religious reasons when we assign scientists as an authority um psychologically that is little different from in ancient times assigning priests and shamans as authority uh during this debate we brought up a lot of technical sort of you know corealis and cavendish and sub-solar and all these vocabulary terms that you may have been googling during the debate and the truth is that there is always going to be in more and more questions we can ask about the nature of reality and as we expose that ignorance we realize how much we rely upon teams of experts to fill in those gaps in our knowledge whether it's theoretical technical academic or otherwise there's huge amounts of knowledge that we're never going to be able to encompass even if we spend our entire lives trying to learn everything we can it's always going to be gaps of ignorance and on that we have to rely and trust in other people when that social trust breaks down I think you get things like the flat earth phenomena which is an interesting cultural homungulus structure Spangler would call it a pseudomorphosis which is kind of a throwback to this magian culture of 2000 years ago where the earth is flat and there's a dome of the firmament the heavens above us I think it's interesting culturally I think this live stream is interesting the fact that you know you've got at our peak over 300 people willing to tune in and spend money to ask questions I think people are attracted energetically to uh to iron horse I think uh he's a dissident he's a an independent thinker you know he he embodies a certain character type that uh people are attracted to right now people are not attracted to conformism they're not attracted to going with the flow they want something that's electric and defiant and oppositional I think that says something about our culture and you can learn more about what I think about that on my channel that's pretty much my closing statement handed off to you iron horse all right well thank you jack well this is still going uh it seems like Amy's jumped out of the room so I'm not sure what's going on here but I'll go here do it anyway um yeah it would I can hear you uh I might for some reason something reset itself and anyway it seems to be going ahead I can hear you and cool and we can hear you um yeah it is very interesting because as jacoel said he's appealing to authority as jacoel said he's appealing to authority in order to formulate the opinions about things which he doesn't know and that's cool you know like we all do that you know that's always how we do it as we were children we appeal to authority we believe in our adults we're told sanic clause is real we're told east of bone in israel and eventually we get old and up and realize oh they're just calling their leg oh that's okay we can forgive them because we enjoyed it at the time it was all sweet and it's good and you know eventually we get to a point then we have to start looking at the greater depths of reality of who do we really believe who do we trust and I think that a flatter power as myself now I do put myself a little bit separate I'm not saying a bottom or better or anything like that but I put myself separate from most of the others in that I don't believe in any authority figure unless it's something that I can discern for myself you know if I can go out and say oh well yeah there's an invisible pulling force and you know whatever and and that is basically I think what it boils down to is how much do we trust our authority figures and I think at the end of the day I think that more and more people waking up you know I don't like to use that term woe but but we are waking up to the fact that we are lied to on a daily basis about virtually everything you know there's not a single thing that we haven't been lied to about and so you have to develop some sort of mental construct within yourself to say what do I believe is real and so you're taking all the information all the authorities from all the hidden information from all the things that you can take from a resource and then you have the ability to make up your own mind but if you don't have that information then you are lacking in the ability to make up your own mind you are basically just going along to get along until you know better and then you say hmm well you know I do question that because it doesn't make sense how can we have an atmosphere in outer space in a vacuumed space how can that atmosphere be moving with us not just the thousand miles per hour but at 66,000 miles an hour not just the 66,000 miles an hour but the same speed as a sun going 514 million 514,000 miles per hour half a million miles per hour every day all of these speeds have to be put together into something where you have to say hmm something is wrong something is wrong and I'm not prepared to accept something that I can't accept as logical observable and provable I just want to know the truth and so that's where I come into it as a truth that I just want to know the truth the truth is usually quite simple as according to often this razor the least convoluted argument with the least assumptions is most often the most correct one and so when it comes to gravity the weight of matter I believe matter itself is its own weight and that is gravity and it only has one universal up and down direction so yes gravity is not a hoax because weight is real we can observe it and we can measure when you decide that you can measure it on the side of things or the upside down and that's the things for underwater or in a vacuum that's where you have lost your mind you have lost control of your own mind and only the truth can set you free all right guys I want to thank you both for joining us here on modern day debate we are a neutral platform welcoming everybody from all walks of life if you're looking for more fantastic debates in the future don't forget to like and subscribe including tonight's debate on is gravity fake I want to thank our two interlocutors iron horse and jockel for joining us tonight and if you liked anything that either of our guests said both of their links are in the description below along with our discord which is where many of us will be heading after the show with that I am Amy Newman with modern day debate we hope you continue having great conversations discussions and debates good night all thanks Amy cheers nice thanks jackal thank you iron horse I assume it's no longer streaming now I think the music should be playing on the yeah yeah Amy's such a pro all fun again