 I'm very happy to welcome you to the Elizabeth Sackler Center for Feminist Art here at the Brooklyn Museum. I'm Elizabeth Sackler, and we are in the auditorium today, which is an extension. It acts as an extension for us of activities and panelists and lectures that we do in the center. The center is an exhibition space and an education facility dedicated to feminist art. Our mission is to raise awareness of feminism's cultural contributions to educate new generations about the meaning of feminist art and to host lectures, discussions on feminist activists past, present, and of course we'd like to hear about the future. Today's panel discussion is Groundbreakers and Music Makers, the first generation of orchestral women. And this for me is especially delightful and I'm so very, very happy that this has come to pass. Jackie Danilow who is at the Metropolitan Orchestra was here a few months ago for some programming and she introduced herself to me and I said, oh my God, you are, you must come and speak. And she in turn contacted Lori Flax and Orin O'Brien and so here we are. As a native New Yorker, I remember my mother subscribing to the New York Philharmonic when it was at Carnegie Hall. And in those days, it was the days of Artur Rubenstein and Isaac Stern and of course her beloved and our beloved Leonard Bernstein. And I was very little, it was in the 50s, I was born in 48, so in the 50s when my mother used to go to the concerts to her subscription with her friend Sophie Parrots. And I didn't want her to leave, you know, how children can be and she'd say to me, oh no, no, that's alright. You have to turn on the radio and you listen to the concert and at the end of the concert when you hear, bravo, bravo, you'll know it's me. And my whole life, I actually believed that I heard my mother. What has become relative, really relevant to me since then of course is that she didn't say, or brava, or bravissimo, but bravo. And because it was very accurate, I have a recollection of her taking me and what I remember seeing were a sea of tales, black tales and ties, tuxedos not tales, I understand, and men, all men. A swarm of male penguins and Leonard Bernstein. It did not occur to me that there was anything amiss, that there was anything off kilter about that. It's simply the way it was. In 1966, and you will meet her shortly, Orin O'Brien was hired by Leonard Bernstein and she shattered the glass ceiling that was hovering very low over orchestras worldwide. And I thank you, Orin, and I thank Lenny. Fifty years later, last Thursday, as a matter of fact, at Avery Fisher Hall, I went to my subscription seats. And it was a delight to watch Alan Gilbert conduct and to hear the orchestra in wonderful form. And to also hear from an invigorated Philharmonic that they are now 50% women. And in fact, I think they've reached a majority of women instrumental musicians. And it's one of the few areas of anything in the arts where women have reached parity. So I say hooray for all of you wonderful musicians. Deborah Siegel is moderating today's wonderful panel with Jackie Danilo and Laura Flax and Orin O'Brien. And without further ado, I'd like to introduce to you Dr. Deborah Siegel. Deborah is an expert on gender and politics. She is the author of Sisterhood Interrupted from Radical Women to Girls Gone While. Co-editor of the anthology Only Child, Writers on the Singular Joys and Solitary Sorrows of Growing Up Solo. Did I say that all right? That's a long one. That's good. Her articles have appeared in the Huffington Post, the Washington Post amongst many others. She's a graduate of the Women's Media Center's Progressive Women's Voices Program, which is fantastic. I think she was of the first class and a fellow at the Woodhull Institute for Ethical Leadership and a board member of the Council on Contemporary Families. She's a media commentator and lecturers at campuses and conferences nationwide. So please join me in welcoming Deborah Siegel who will introduce our very esteemed guest, Jackie Danilo, Laura Flax and Orin O'Brien. Thank you so much. Thank you, Dr. Sackler. When I was first invited to moderate this panel, which is titled Groundbreakers and Music Makers, the first generation of orchestral women, the word generation jumped out for me as a member of a generation that I often refer to as feminism's daughters and as a consumer and observer of classical music from afar. I started to grow curious about what sexism looks like today and feels like today in the classical music industry. Does it look like sexual harassment? Does it look like mommy tracking? Does it exist? But I also became interested in the history. Women have long played music, of course, but in the parlors, right? As a way to entertain the men. Think of all those fine descriptions in the Jane Austen novels of heroines who are versed in their piano playing and their, you know, a very useful skill when it comes to attracting a mate, right? Women were encouraged to play but not mind you for money and they definitely weren't encouraged to compose. Wrote Abraham Mendelssohn, father of Felix, in a letter to his daughter Fanny. Perhaps for Felix, quote, music will become a profession. Well, for you, it will always remain but an ornament. Never can and should it become the foundation of your existence. This line has become one of the most famous and notorious, perhaps, discouragements in musical history. So I wanted to know when did classical music become a foundation of women's existence? During the World War, of course, as middle-class women entered the professions and droves, we started to see women going to music school to become music teachers. But women weren't accepted into symphony orchestras here in this country until the 1950s. In 1952, Doreo Anthony Dwyer, a descendant of suffragist Susan B. Anthony pointed principal floutist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra becoming, therefore, the first woman to hold a principal chair with a major symphony orchestra. And apparently, Ms. Dwyer was a particularly attractive woman and one particularly proper Boston brahman sent her a package with a letter demanding that she hide her exposed ankles with the enclosed pair of thick, grey stockings. We've come a long way. This weekend, mind you, marks the International Women's Brass Conference, which is currently taking place in Toronto. And now brass instruments, of course, have traditionally been played by men. These are power instruments. They require big lungs. But women whose brass playing is sometimes referred to these days as more soulful are now playing as well. And the fact that conferences like this one exist is significant. But still, things have not fully caught up. When women enter professions that have previously long been dominated by men in society at large, they usually first start to appear in low status positions or locations, and the same has been true for symphony orchestras. At the end of the 21st century, there were significantly more women in regional than in major orchestras. And in 2009, 60% of steady classical engagements in organizations like the New York City Opera, New York City Ballet, New York Philharmonic, the Met, mostly Mozart, American Ballet Theatre were held by men, 60% of class of engagements, and 38% by women. Women are not equally represented across instruments. We're overrepresented in some, like the smaller strings, and underrepresented in others, including woodwind, percussion, bass, and brass sections. But, and this is interesting, there's a tipping point, as there is in most fields, at which point there seem to be enough women to make a difference in a masculinist culture. According to one study that I read that was published in the musical Quarterly, that tipping point isn't until an orchestra has reached at least 40% women. So let's put this in a larger context. As the economist noted this January, women are at last approaching that magic number of parity, 50% of the American workforce. And in some fields, but not others, we're taking, you know, sledgehammers to those glass ceilings that still remain. But social attitudes don't always catch up with these changes, and stereotypes persist. According to Claire Cooper, who's a member of Local 802, which is a union, classical musicians are unionized. According to Claire Cooper, stereotypes persist, she says. And I'm very interested to hear how this does and doesn't ring true for you all. Over the years, I've had my very right to be playing an instrument challenged. Had music store employees speak to me like a child, and had men come up to me on gigs and tell me how to set up my equipment. Most people I meet who find out I'm a musician automatically say, oh, you sing? My responses usually were allowed to play instruments now. So our panelists up here today not only play instruments, they've reached the upper echelons of their field. And I'd like to point out some points of diversity among them before I introduce them because I think this is what will lend a certain depth and breath through the conversation we're about to have. We have generational diversity. We have a mentor and a student. In the audience, we have two 19-year-old daughters of one of our panelists who are musicians themselves. Among our panelists are women who have been married and women who have not, women who have had children and women who did not. But what they have in common, of course, is that they are all trailblazers and groundbreakers, and yes, music makers, and it's a privilege to be introducing you to them. Oren O'Brien was born in Hollywood, California, to parents who were actors in theater and film. She attended the Music Academy of West Summer Festival as a scholarship student for four years, completing one summer of studies with Herman Rainshagen, who was a former assistant principal base of the New York Philharmonic under Mahler. Oren received her diploma from Juilliard, where she was a pupil of Frederick Zimmerman, who was assistant principal base of New York Philharmonic for most of his 36 years there. She was a member of the New York City Ballet Orchestra from 1956 to 1966 during the Balanchine Stravinsky years, and was a regular extra base at the Metropolitan Orchestra from 1961 to 66. She was a member of the American Symphony with Leopold Stokowski from 1961 to 65, and she participated in the first performances and recording of Gunther Schuller's quartet for four double basses at Carnegie Hall in 1960. Performances, and there are many, include one with the Guarnieri Quartet of Schubert's Trout Quintet and the Dvorak Quintet, and Oren became a member of the New York Philharmonic in 1966 when Leonard Bernstein was a music director. She is currently acting associate principal base during the 2009-2010 season. She's on the faculty of Juilliard, the Manhattan School, and the Mann's College of Music. She's former faculty of the Institut des Oétudes Musicales in Montrose, Switzerland, and she's given master classes at Tanglewood, Peabody, Franklin Conservatory, Yale, and Hart College. She's performed with myriad conductors over the past 50 years, including Sir Colin Davis, Fritz Reiner, Serge George Schulte, Pierre Boulet, I Could Go On, Zubin Mehta, Kurt Massour, and she's with us here today and will be the first one to speak. I'll introduce the other two panelists and then we'll come back to Oren. Clarinetist Laura Flachs, sitting in the middle, has been praised by the New York Times as, quote, one of those musicians for whom everything is not only possible but easy. Is that true? She is recognized as one of New York's most distinguished and versatile players. Laura is currently principal clarinetist with the New York City Opera Orchestra, the American Symphony Orchestra, and the Bard Festival Orchestra, formerly a member of the San Francisco and San Diego symphonies. Laura has been a guest with the New York Philharmonic, St. Luke's Orpheus, and American composers' orchestras. Her solo appearances include performances with the Jerusalem Symphony, Bard Festival Orchestra, American Symphony Orchestra, and the Puerto Rico Symphony. A member of the Nomeberg Award-winning Dacapo Chamber players for 20 years, Laura was involved in over 100 premieres including works by Joan Towers, Shula Meet Ron, Philip Glass, and Elliot Carter. She's given master classes and recitals throughout the country at institutions and chamber music societies, including Eastman School of Music, Pittsburgh Chamber Music Society, University of Chicago, Carnegie Recital Hall, and MIT. As a chamber artist, Laura has appeared regularly with James Laredo's Chamber Music at the Y-Series, Suzuki and Friends in Indianapolis, the Chamber of Houston, and with the Bard Music Festival. She is on the faculty of the Bard Conservatory and Julliard Pre-College. Her recording of Joan Towers Wings is available on the CRI label and music of Shula Meet Ron on Bridge Records. Laura lives in New York with her twin daughters, Molly and Fanny. Jackie Danilow, our panelist to the far right, has been playing double bass with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra since 1980. She began her musical training at the Manhattan School of Music under the tutelage of Orin O'Brien. Jackie earned her master's degree of music at Julliard under the professorship of Homer Mench. Starting her orchestral career in the New Jersey Symphony, Jackie has also performed on Broadway in the recording studios and with many orchestral ensembles in the New York City area. She's held the position of principal bass with the American Symphony Orchestra, the American Composer's Orchestra, Stamford Symphony, Opera Orchestra of New York and Bard Music Festival. Working in the world's greatest orchestra for the past 30 years has provided Jackie with a unique perspective on life as an orchestral musician and what it means to be part of a group effort. This experience informs every aspect of how she walks in the world. Jackie is an active and devoted music education advocate, which I know from the short time I've spent with her already, and is working so that classical orchestral music becomes an integral part of every child's education. It's quite a lineup. There are quite some bios. I've asked each panelist to offer an introductory statement today and we'll just go down the row here. I'll then ask them each a question, ask the panel question, then we'll open it up for Q&A. By way of introduction, Oren, if you could tell us a little bit about your trajectory as a professional female musician, who inspired you, who taught you, who said you could do it, and how did you choose the instrument that you play? What does it mean to you to be an orchestral woman? And what have been some of your greatest challenges as a member of that first generation of professional orchestral women at large? Well, I can start with my parents. My parents believed that the arts and education were most important, and so from early age, I would say about age four, my parents took both me and my brother to concerts, to symphony concerts, to opera, to ballet, to plays, and we also had music at home. I started piano lessons at age six, and I studied until I was 17, until I found the bass, and then I wanted to quit the piano, but my mother said, I didn't pay for all those lessons all these years to have you give it up. As long as you're living at home, you're gonna keep studying the piano. So I'm glad she did it because when I came to Juilliard, they required you to pass the piano minor test, and I did, so I didn't have to take an extra course in piano playing, so it would be more time to practice, which was fine. So my switch from piano to bass came when I went into high school. I went to Beverly Hills High School, which was the free public school in that city, and it was just a fantastic school. The first assembly, I saw the school orchestra, and I was astounded because to me it sounded as good as a professional orchestra, and the concertmaster, who was a girl named Irene Rabinovich, stood up and played the San San Rondo Capricioso, and I was floored because it sounded so unbelievable, and I thought, I want to be a part of this. This is gorgeous. So I ran up to the conductor after the concert for the school kids. It was for an assembly, just for the whole school, like about 800 people. So I ran up and I said, please, can I join the orchestra? And he said, what do you play? Oh, we have plenty of pianists. We need bass players, and we can loan you a bass, and I'll give you the name of a teacher. If you study for six months, we'll let you in the orchestra. Well, that was it for me, and I started to study, and the next summer, my mother told me, you have to get out of the house in the summer. Every summer, you're here taking summer courses at the school because there are many things that interest you, and you're practicing the piano. I want you out of the house. Going to this school I found in the newspaper was an advertisement for the Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara, which was about two hours away from LA. So she called up the teacher, who was advertised in the brochure, and it turned out to be the most incredible bit of luck for me. This was Milton Kestenbaum, who had been a member of the Toscanini NBC Orchestra in New York. He was first base of the Pittsburgh Symphony before that, with Fritz Reiner as the conductor. He had gone to school at Juilliard, studied with Frederick Zimmerman, who was later on my teacher, and he auditioned me when I could barely play. I studied about a year, and I could play one or two notes, and he said, well, you know, you're not very good, but we need bass players this summer, so we'll take you. And I was so grateful. When I got to the school, there were about 100 other musicians there, and they were pianists, and they were all older than me. I was the youngest one at 16 or 17, and they all were interested in the same things. This is the first time that I had found that. Everybody was interested in music, practicing all day, rehearsing, playing chamber music. Some of the cellists let me play in a quartet. When they were too busy, they said, you can try to play the cello part. And I practiced so much. I hurt my fingers. I had to soak them in epsom salts every night because the fingernails got infected. I just knocked myself out, and at the end of the eight-week summer session, I went to Kestenbaum and said, Mr. Kestenbaum, do you think I could ever become professional? I think I would like to do this. And he looked at me and he said, well, if you were a young man, I would say no, because of course, if you're a young man, you're going to want to marry and have a family. And the profession does not really pay enough to support a family, so I would discourage you. But maybe since you're a single girl, it might work out. So of course, later on, you know, when I got in the Philharmonic, we laughed about this. He came to visit me. He and his family came to visit. And we had many long conversations, and we used to laugh about this. He said, imagine what I said to you. And it just turned out that I had the right teacher at the right time. He taught me for three years, and then he said, you have to go where the best teachers are, which is Juilliard in New York. His teacher was Fred Zimmerman. He said, you have to go there. So the first year that I was headed for college, my parents were divorced by then, and my father would not sign the paper that let me leave the state of California. So I went to UCLA, and I played first bass in the opera orchestra there. I played first bass in the symphony orchestra, which was conducted at that time by Lucas Foss, who was a very famous composer-pianist, and he made me principal bass. I guess not because I got play so well at that time, but because I was interested, and I worked very hard, and he saw that I was at every single rehearsal. And by that year, I was going around to every little amateur orchestra that needed a bass, and I went to the San Diego, Santa Monica Symphony, the Pasadena Symphony. My teacher, Kessenbaum, was the first bass, and he said, come and play second. Sit with me and just copy everything I do. And that was the greatest, because the conductor was a man named Richard Lert, who had been, he was a godchild of Johannes Brahms, the composer, and he was a serious musician and a great conductor who had been with the Berlin State Opera before Hitler took power. When Hitler came to power in 1933, he took his family and left, and the benefitors of that were the people in the Pasadena Symphony. He had a great orchestra there, which was stocked mainly with professionals that wanted to play good music one day a week. He had rehearsals Tuesday night and performances on Sunday afternoon. And he did the greatest repertoire, Beethoven symphonies, Brahms symphonies. He had great soloists. I remember the first time I played the Dvorak Concerto, the Cello Concerto, Joseph Schuster, the former principal cello of the Philharmonic, was the soloist. And sitting next to my teacher, he told me, don't ask me questions during rehearsal. Just copy what I do, and I'll explain why at your lesson. So I got like a free lesson. The rehearsal with him was like a free lesson. And I heard this glorious music. To me, this was just, this was living. And I thought, this is what I want to do the rest of my life. So the next year in college, my father signed the paper for me and I went, I packed my bass, checked it with the luggage at the airport, which was a big mistake, but I didn't know that. I was too dumb to know it. Fortunately, it was not smashed. And I got to New York with my suitcase, my music and my bass. One week before Juilliard opened, I auditioned, because in those years, practically no one was interested in music as a profession, except a very small group of odd people who were willing to be paid very little and do other jobs. In those years, in the late 1940s, early 50s, Cleveland Orchestra had a big season of 28 weeks. And this was with the famous conductor, George Zell. And I know that two cellists joined the Philharmonic the same year as I did. One had been in Cleveland 18 years, since the 1940s. He told me that in those years when Cleveland didn't have a full-year season, he and his wife worked in a nut factory in the summer when they had 20 weeks of no work in order to pay for the privilege of working with Cleveland the rest of the year. So the music profession has changed in the last 50 years radically. And people that went into it 50 years ago didn't expect a lot of remuneration. In fact, one of Jackie's teachers, Homer Mench, who was a colleague of mine and also my stand partner when I joined the Philharmonic, we played together on the same stand. He left the Philharmonic in 1948 to join the staff of the CBS Orchestra because they paid 52 weeks a year and they paid $7,000 a year. Those years, the Philharmonic was half a year and only paid $3,000. So it was more lucrative for people that had a family to support or children to raise and things like that. They needed to have a decent salary. So actually, New York Philharmonic was the second choice and the Met was actually paying more in those years than the Philharmonic because they had more services. They had seven concerts a week, seven shows, seven operas. And in those years, the years that I subbed with the Met, they had to play all seven shows and rehearsals and they got paid very little, relatively. I guess I should take a drink of water, I suppose. So anyway, that's part of my experiences. My big influences were the conductors that I played with, my two fantastic teachers, and my parents that made it possible for me to study. So that's my main gist. Thank you, Water. I got the writing. Thanks. Okay. So I think my story kind of starts out similarly to yours where your home environment kind of informs what you become attracted to. My mom was an amateur pianist. She had majored in musicology. I guess she was a liberal arts major at Vassar, but then went on to Columbia and majored in musicology. And I think was not really temperamentally suited to become a professional pianist, but she certainly got around the instrument very well. She married my dad, who was a surgeon, and I am the youngest of three girls. So at night, after my mom did the dishes and had made dinner, it was a very traditional family. She would practice, and I would hear her doing shellpan etudes and some Brahms pieces, and so I was always going to sleep listening to music, and one of my older sisters had started to play flute. We all took piano lessons. And in the third grade, the band director said, it's time for you to choose an instrument the girls can play, either the flute or the clarinet. So my sister had already been playing the flute, so I de facto chose the clarinet, even though what I really wanted to play was the oboe, but it was too esoteric. Jackie and I actually grew up four blocks away from each other. I'm a little older than she, but we had the same band director in Long Beach, New York. So we've known each other since birth. In any event, I stuck with the clarinet and have no regrets. The clarinet is, I think, the closest to the human voice of all the instruments. It's just wonderfully expressive. But in terms of who said I could do it, it seems like from how I grew up, that there was my mom being this big influence, bringing music into the home. And as I said, my older sister was in very short order an accomplished flutist, and I saw my parents really promoting her. And then all of a sudden, it was like things kind of didn't compute. My dad didn't really want my mom to be working as a musician. She should never take money for teaching or anything. So my mom did a lot of volunteer work, and it was very involved in our community. She became a concert presenter. She organized a scholarship foundation for children that couldn't afford to take private lessons. And I think what I learned from her, in addition to this love of music, just because it was so present and it never occurred to me that music was not necessary. It was very necessary. But it was kind of counterbalanced by this attitude of my dad's, which, when it was finally verbalized, came out as, don't worry as long as you learn how to type, you'll never have to worry until you get married. And that was how he, a renowned surgeon in our community, brought up the three of his daughters, which I think is just kind of horrifying. So when it became time for me, and playing the clarinet became more and more important as I got into my teens, I didn't, unlike, I think, when you hear Jackie and certainly Orrin, I did not play in local orchestras. I don't know exactly why that was, but within my home I played so much chamber music, and I was always playing with my mom, and there were all these young students at Juilliard, some of, like, Dennis Russell Davies, who's a very well-known conductor now, was a young pianist who came and did his preview concert in New York, or Neil Zaslow, who's a very well-known musicologist, was a flutist at one point and came out, and Harris Goldsmith, who was a critic, was also a pianist and came out and played. So there were all these people kind of, and everybody had dinner at our house before the concert, and so there was very much a community, a sense of community that I could see at a young age and was definitely attracted to. So when it became time for me to think about college, here my older sister, to whom I referred, had already kind of been tracked not to be a professional musician, but to follow in my mother's footsteps and go to an all-girls school, Vassar, just the way she did, but she ended up going to an all-girls school Skidmore instead. So I saw that happen, and she remained very interested in flute while at the Liberal Arts School, which I think keys into what Deborah was saying about the Jane Austen period and young women being well-versed, they should be able to sing and recite poetry and play an instrument and be lovely. And I think that Liberal Arts and the Seven Sisters, you know, not to diminish any of the wonderful intellectual stimulation that these schools provided, really were rooted in this as long as you learn how to type, as long as you learn how to play the piano nicely, as long as you can sing pleasantly, that's the direction that my family was encouraging their daughters to go in. So I went knuckle to knuckle against my parents' wishes to go to conservatory. And so I started Juilliard. Yeah. And so the part that I can't leave out in there is, again, going back to what you were saying about Fanny Mendelssohn's dad telling her that she couldn't do it or that she shouldn't do it. I mean, all the research now tells us that if you have, as a young woman, to get approval from your dad really is what informs your success later on. There's so many studies that have shown this. So since I wasn't getting that from my dad, I ended up marrying an older man when I was 18. So I basically, that kind of became who said I could do it, who said I could do it. It was my first husband who was just floored by the fact that I could be going to Juilliard and studying to be a musician. Meanwhile, on the back of my head, I think I thought, well, maybe I could become a gourmet cook. You know, maybe I could learn. And part of me wanted to play house and it was very difficult. And I think it's really so much because I was never told you have to make a living. You're going to have to pick a profession. What did I know? I was supposed to get married. So I did everything kind of out of order. I got married so that I could have a profession. I rebelled, but in a very socially acceptable way. So there I was at Juilliard studying and I would go for my lessons and everybody, as a wind player, the goal is to get a job in an orchestra. But again, I had such a skewed vision of things because I didn't have, as you had teachers who had orchestra jobs. I had this fantasy that I was going to be a soloist and play chamber music and that's what I was going to do. And so I would come in, I had gotten involved with some colleagues who were very interested in contemporary music and I would bring in to my lessons these esoteric pieces and my teacher would say, where's your Brahms third excerpt? Where's your Capriccio Espanol? And I said, well, I'm working on this Donald Martino unaccompanied piece and he would say, oh, you're not serious. You're going to be a housewife. And I would say, well, just because I don't want to play in an orchestra, I'm already a housewife. It was an interesting experience. So what ended up happening was that my association with my classmates in school who were so on the track of contemporary music and what was happening then was that that was the direction that I went into and just the way you talked about luck and who is around you at any given point. I got involved with several contemporary music groups in New York and ended up with a group called the Jacopo Chamber Players and that was, Deborah talked about in my bio and as a result of being with that group I was exposed to a level of not only music making but relationship with living composers, many of whom went on to win Pulitzer Prizes and Grower Meyer awards that I could never have had in any other walk of life. And going back just for one moment what my mom really taught me was to love music and that that was this underlying thing that if you loved what you do then there's nothing else and since I wasn't under this pressure to pick a profession I just followed my heart and you know it's like so kind of New Age oh yeah I just followed my heart but that's really it was not calculated at all so there I was in this group and then luck and chance and I took an audition just randomly because oh I had gotten divorced and I randomly took an audition that again was because an old boyfriend arranged something you know it's so totally random and I ended up playing in the San Francisco Symphony for a year and that was my first orchestra job and I was 29 which is you know felt so old gosh it was so late to come to that discipline and then I went after that one year I played with San Diego Symphony and then I came back to New York and very quickly I got the New York City opera job where I've been and that's enough so that's kind of my trajectory for now to be continued Jackie yes this is great stories I know you two both so well and still I learned a lot just now TMI yes I grew up in Long Beach with Laura Flax her mother Hazel was my piano teacher and but when I was at school I was given the choice of a flute or clarinet I took the flute I couldn't get a note out not a note so there happened to be a few bases around my house my brother played the bass and I had played the piano since I was four and I knew I was very proficient in music I could read the bass and treble clef so well so Mr. Maniki said why don't you play the bass it's in your house so I took the bass I was 10 years old I had to stand on a table not a chair they didn't have the stools I stood on a table to be able to reach and I just loved it from the minute I played because I was part of I would be part of a group and playing the band or playing jazz band and I loved the fact that I could play so many different styles and at the time and the easy part was of course that my brother had it in the house and like Laura we were very musical the family was musical after dinner we all played an instrument I had two brothers two sisters and my father and mother played clarinet and piano and we would have musical soirees it was just for fun I don't know how it sounded but it was fun and my brothers had rock and roll bands and boy here I was in the 60s playing the electric bass and the bass fiddle and doing it well and learning and so it was just always something that I enjoyed I thought I was I loved it and my father was a very big influence he was always helpful and encouraging thinking it was the greatest thing since sliced bread that his daughter would play the bass my mother had a little other idea she thought it was not too feminine and what was she going to do when she was 50 well it's fine mom and I can wheel the bass around but anyway I began getting serious about it in my teens and realized that all I wanted to do was play in an orchestra be part of a group and I began studying very hard I went to pre-college at Juilliard with my friend Laura on the train and she was my little chaperone and I just loved that excitement of art and culture my mother and father were always taking us to museums and plays and orchestra concerts and so from there on I just wanted to play the bass now one of the biggest inspirations was when I came back from a liberal arts college because I wasn't quite sure about Juilliard and music as just my life I knew I liked a lot of subjects I was very interested in all social endeavors and I went off to a liberal arts college in New England upon coming back from that experience I found that I could not be without bass I was in every ensemble but there ever was in the state of Rhode Island and I came back to Juilliard here is where Orrin came in my father found an article in the newspaper where he found there was a woman teacher and he called her up and asked if she had time to teach his daughters and well after that little and Orrin taught me the passion of wanting to play in an orchestra and the passion of the technique of playing how to make a beautiful sound and the importance of the bass in classical music and I got my dream to play in an orchestra she helped me and there was never a doubt though about being a woman or a girl bass player I was always encouraged I had a woman as a teacher my sister ended up becoming a bassist by this time by the time I was 20, 21 she was in full force as an instrumentalist my parents were very liberal and my friends were very encouraging so for me this was just a way of life as far as making a living I always knew I would I never thought I wouldn't make a living without the bass in my hands from an early age I started playing gigs by the time I was 14 I was playing rock and roll bands, orchestras, etc so that was never an issue however once I did get into an orchestra and was in the day-to-day routine of orchestra life there are things that come up and an orchestra is a society in itself and you're in a hundred piece family actually, a hundred member family I had always done very well in the social settings of freelancing and orchestral life but I was not prepared I don't think for all of the day-in-day-out rigors of playing in an orchestra and being a part of a hundred opinions that's a good place to transition actually to talking a little bit about the conditions and the actual experience of being an orchestral woman both in the past, in the present and into the future I think it's interesting, Jackie, how you said you didn't have role models around but that you did have role models around but Orrin, you really didn't and the question I want to ask you is you broke the sex barrier at the Philharmonic particularly in 1966 which apart from female harpists had never in its 125-year history up to that point hired a woman musician full-time and you won that audition over 33 male-based players at the time there were many more yes more than 33 the first time I auditioned was 1956 when I was in my last year at Juilliard and I didn't think I was qualified I thought everybody else that already in the orchestra is more qualified than me I'm still a student but I was actually telling Laura and Jackie in the car as we drove here my teacher felt, it was Fred Zimmerman at Juilliard he felt that he taught a very good way of playing and that he had five of us at that time in 1956 four of his other older students that were already employed in New York City Ballet in the Pittsburgh Symphony, etc they were going to come to New York to take this audition because someone had died that's the only time there was an opening someone in the bass section at the Philharmonic had died so he told me that I want you to practice this summer and I want you to take the audition and I was floored because I said well I don't know if I'm ready he said well I'll tell you when you're ready and you and the other four people that are going to audition represent a very fine school of playing and I want the committee to hear the five of you because so far here he was the most influential bass teacher in the United States people came from Europe, Australia all over and all over the country to study with him and he yet had not had one former student ever be accepted for various reasons whoever don't want to go into them because that has nothing to do with our subject today but when I auditioned I felt I was on a team representing a way of playing that was very good very musical, very intelligent, very clear and I felt a part of a group and therefore I didn't feel the burden was all on me and I felt grateful because I don't think I could have handled it then and I was very grateful that one of the other four players won and it was a student of his who ended up being in the Philharmonic for ten years and then quit because he didn't win the audition for the second chair where I am now playing by accident in a way because the guy who sat there for years suddenly retired last year and I was moved up so it's kind of accidental I never expected to be in that particular position but here I am so when we all auditioned and the person that had experienced won I was very happy because I felt my teacher's way of playing had succeeded and actually that's what I felt when I won I did not feel like I was breaking a sex barrier or crashing a glass ceiling which wasn't that wasn't the terminology that was in vogue at that time that's a newer terminology I felt first of all I was a German bow player and that had not been hired in the Philharmonic for many years because the predominant school of playing was the first base who was a French bow player so that was like, that was to me and the fact that I was a Zimmerman pupil was more important by far to me than being female it was a totally different and so when all these articles came out and I was interviewed about being it was strange to me they weren't focusing on what I thought was important I'd like to read from one of those articles this is from Time Magazine that came out in 1966 I think it's telling because it describes you at age 31 as the only girl of course that was the term then right in the 104 member orchestra but also the descriptions of Time Magazine needs to get some fact checking I think it's interesting the kind of descriptions and assumptions that they're making I'll just let you listen in here this is from the article quote, most musicians agree that women are all right in their place just as long as that place is not the first desk a position that gives them authority over the other players in their section when that happens egos get bruised says a woman who is a first cellist how do I tell an older man that he consistently comes in early on bar 24 some musicians complain that women are emotionally ill-tuned to the rigors of symphony life and that they play erratically during menstruation or when they're concerned about family problems Zubin Mehta, 30 who appreciates a well-turned ankle as much as a well-played musical phrase ankle's like you're picturing those grey socks has different reasons he has enforced a limit of 16 women in his Los Angeles Philharmonic because quote, a woman's life in the orchestra is not as long as a man's she is just not as good at 60 as a man is so we have some interesting sexism as well as ageism all mixed in right and I'm just wondering if you could describe for us a little bit more what that era was like because I think for women my generation and for your daughters Laura we at least have the expectation of equality but you didn't even have a dressing room right you had to get dressed in the bathroom in the ladies room because the dressing room was for the men so can you just describe for us a little bit what was that like I'd love to tell you one story which as I look back of course the girls in the orchestra today the women in the orchestra cannot believe that this happened but my first tour we all have on tour huge wardrobe trunks that are divided into four sections and I was given the upper drawer and the upper part of one and then there's the lower then there's the other side so there's four people so of course the rest were all men and I was told you can have this one and we were backstage the first month I was in the orchestra we had a tour of the eastern seaboard and one of the towns was Philadelphia and backstage they put all the trunks together backstage and the men used to dress in front of their trunks so I had my concert close in the trunk and one of the older bass players Walter Batty whose bass I now have he sold it to me when he retired he said, hey Orin I'll guide you through the guys just close your eyes give me your hand and I will walk you through he was protecting my modesty and that I shouldn't have to watch the men undressing so I said okay so I went like this and he walked me through the trunks to Wiga he says here's your trunk get your clothes I'll wait for you and then I went and found the bathroom and dressed in the bathroom but that was fine it was hilarious I thought it was hysterical and I have to say the men to a fault were nice to me because they heard the rumors that I auditioned and I played very well the only thing that was embarrassing sometimes Bernstein would say bravo Orin when I played something that everybody else was playing but that I had a separate entrance or something and I counted right I came in right and that I was embarrassed by and some of the guys were teasing me about it but you know Bernstein was trying to be fatherly he was trying to be nice and I think he thought of everybody in the orchestra as his children he treated us sort of like oh come on you know if they were talking he said oh you're all a bunch of hachem because he spoke mostly Yiddish to the orchestra in those days because the orchestra was mostly Jewish so you know I mean it was it was a different era and I felt I didn't feel odd they made me feel at home and I wouldn't have gotten there if not for the encouragement of my male teachers the two fantastic teachers that encouraged me pushed me and forced me to audition I wouldn't have thought of it on my own because there were no women in the orchestra I wouldn't have occurred to me that I could even write a letter and ask for an audition appointment in fact the first letter I got back 1956 was Dear Mr. O'Brien the audition time is 9.45 Saturday morning so you know and I think they were surprised when I showed up and then there were no screens you played in front of the committee screens only came in in the late 60s early 70s which was to protect the anonymity and make sure that it was not prejudiced against women or minorities or women who were a minority at that time and women were encouraged not to wear heels right so they wouldn't make a funny noise walking on the stage interesting I'm curious in something Jackie that you brought up you know if we kind of move for a moment from the past to the present you said that the orchestra is a microcosm of society and that it's a you know one big family as we all know families can be a little dysfunctional right so I'm curious if you could just give us the lay of the land today what are some of the hierarchies at work in orchestral society and how and where does gender play well I think there's there are hierarchies because just in the different instruments the sections of the orchestra there is a conductor there is a concert master and there are certain social hierarchies that we all maneuver in and out of but the whole idea is that we're there to make music and to make a beautiful piece of art and so the best scenario is that we all get along and do this and when that happens it is like heaven on earth you know all when all the right all the things just align when there's a great conductor when you're playing the greatest music and when everyone's feeling good conversation and where things happen but there are some war and peace nightmares like you say dysfunctional families and I think it's also because a lot of us have to subjugate our individuality especially in string sections I know that the winds have to do a lot of solo playing but also fitting in and you know there's people at one side of the room that are banging on instruments and there are people that are playing these loud things that you don't even know what they're called sometimes brass instruments but the strings and we all have to get along and for example in my experience in the bass the most well Orrin taught me this the most exquisite moment in a concert is when bass players play a pizzicato together it's the timing it's like a pearl falling on a pillow so all these times are great but like in any social setting there are ins and outs that you have to work through and I think it is the subjugating of your individuality that you have to go with the lead player there's leaders of each section in a string when you say subjugate your individuality have you ever personally felt that gender has been part of that individuality that's had to be subjugated I suppose how so can you describe that well I guess you have to I think in an orchestra also the thing that I didn't realize is that it's a very conservative group of people once you get so many people together people tend to form opinions and walk around like in a prejudiced way and that piece I hate that piece so then everybody hates that piece oh that soloist did you hear the way they played oh and the conductor middle school well you have to remember another item that we all spent our childhood in the practice room from the age of 5 till 20 we were in a practice room by ourselves playing these instruments learning perfecting every muscle in the hands and every intonation and doing all these things we had a very social education in the beginning so that's why when I heard I could play a bass I ran to it to play with others so sometimes think because you get 100 people in an orchestra and you have this one person that's leading our social skills aren't as finely honed and but the music brings us together and right back on course and that's really where it's at interesting I never thought of those interpersonal dynamics in quite that way while we're talking about family did you want to have a question? I just say you brought up an interesting point you said in this time magazine article which is antique already I don't think it would be written that way today there would be a lot of complaints a lot of letters written in that they're discontinuing the editor about the point about being a section principal I have to say it is difficult whether you are male or female I think you have to have as many social skills to be a great principal as you do musical skills you have to be able to understand what the conductor wants and interpret something correctly if they do something wrong you have to correct it in flight so to speak as it happens you have to have a section like they are the individuals that they are and to me the key to being a successful principal is not only the musical thing but the social thing the humanistic thing of making everyone in that section feel that you appreciate what they are helping you with what you need them to make you look good and the most successful principals that I've seen are the ones that make their section genius leading a bunch of idiots which is the way that some men and women treat their sections have you ever seen a woman's authority undermined because she is a woman leading a section is that dynamic I can tell you one experience I had when I was a freelancer before I joined the Philharmonic I used to play summer concerts called Lower East Side Neighborhood Association Lena the contractor was Arthur Aaron you're probably too young to remember him Arthur hired me as principal very surprisingly one summer 1959 and I had various wonderful partners there were like three or four bases for the orchestra it was a small little orchestra Julius Grossman was the conductor and we rehearsed in a un-air conditioned basketball inside court downtown when it was like 100 degrees then we all went for dinner together at Delancey Street it was my partner and we played the whole concert up-bow for fun we were just having a great time and the conductor didn't mind it was just fun it was like and then Jimmy Bernan was my partner once and it was like being with friends nobody was principal it was just you were having fun together then one elder gentleman and I don't remember his name but his daughter was a dancer with New York City Ballet and I knew who he was so I saw this and I thought how can I fix this I don't know how to fix this well I let him ask all the questions of the conductor and that calmed him down so I like pretended I wasn't principal and there was no solos or anything just played the same part together but that seemed to solve the problem and it was okay and I thought gee I feel terrible you know that he feels bad about this situation made me feel bad that's an interesting tactic though that's small so that somebody else I could see that he was very annoyed so let him ask do you want to do this on the string or off the string I was okay interesting gender behavior actually I want to ask you a question and then can I just do a riff sure because I at City Opera and I haven't thought about this for so long before I was the official tenured principal player I just would move up and play principal and we were playing um Lobo M and I was playing principal and the gentleman sitting next to me was who was playing second clarinet was a sub which means that he wasn't a regular in the orchestra but he was someone who came in and filled in because if I were playing second in there I was playing first so he came on a regular basis and he knew the repertoire so he was playing and you know you're busy playing and then you come to a rest and then you're playing again so during one of these rest I lean over I say Jimmy this section at 28 it's transposed because we had a different singer you have to play a step down and he looked at me he said I don't think so I said yeah it's transposed and we come to this spot and he didn't transpose it he didn't believe me because you know I'm 25 years younger than he is he's been he was best friends with the guy who's regular who was the regular principal I was so furious and powerless because it wasn't my job there was nothing I could do that and that's just you know here's a future oriented this is your opportunity to you know project how would you like for things to be different for your daughters I think it's interesting that for you music is not just a family but it's the family business because your daughters are in music school and going into this field as well so I'm kind of curious I'd love to hear what do you hope might be different for your daughters and what do you think they've learned from your experience and what are you perhaps learning from them well not to put them on the spot or anything I really tried to talk them out of it and and who knows I mean who knows how it'll all turn out I really hope that each of them has success in whatever aspect of the musical profession they want and I think for all of our students and conservatories right now it's so different than when we were in school because it's not orchestras are dying every day you hear about another maybe not every day but so many of our regional orchestras are closing because of funding even our major orchestras you read the headlines Philadelphia has huge debt it's it's very scary so our kids are forced to have an inventiveness that we weren't so there are all of these new think about a new venue like in New York City La Poisson Rouge where I have not been yet but all of a sudden a bar is a place where concerts are done and so it's a whole new ballgame that's what I hope that you'll find your ways each of you find your ways which whatever ways that those will be for me I feel so lucky to have watched this transition where the clarinet the bastion in the second row and there's the first row of flutes and oboes and there have been a lot of women flutists less so oboes but clarinet certainly in the New York freelance world was really such a boys club and it was like Spanky's gang and no girls allowed with the backwards S you know and the best the most fun thing that I've been able to do is have an entire section of women and I have I can do it three or four times over there's so many wonderful women professional clarinetists working successful and it's so great at the Bard Music Festival where the American Symphony performs I have a very wonderful colleague who's my regular second there and just down the line so that's great and I'm so glad that my girls get to see that and all the women friends that I have that are professional musicians flutists and clarinetists which is what instruments they play that I don't think they know that it's not possible you know that right now everything is possible so that's a good moment to turn it to the audience for some questions yes I do know a woman of black woman pianist Valerie Capers who's also blind was one of the only blind people accepted to Juilliard and she had to revert to jazz because she just could not memorize all the symphonic literature she's playing but not classical I feel I've done a little bit of research on how Afro-Americans have been well have not been educated in classical music to the extent that white people are and we're looking at a time where it's probably going to continue that way because in the New York City public schools as you know there is no music education the Afro-American women that I know are all violinists and violists and they were given those instruments just like we were given the choice of clarinet or flute because they're small and easily transportable I think Winton Marsalis is doing a great job at converting people into jazz musicians and classical and that he's done a wonderful job but we need to get the education out to the public school system and foster them I think there's a lot of there's a couple of reasons why Afro-Americans don't go into classical music so to speak because they were pushed out in the beginning of the century of orchestras in the 1900s and then went off on their own and created jazz that's another whole other topic but I don't know I wish there were more yeah that's a good question I think it's interesting too to think about what efforts are underway to democratize or to better democratize classical music I know Jackie you've been involved in well yes it's a very hard road to how because they when funding is cut from public schools for some reason they think that music and art is the first when it should really be the last even as far as English is the second language music would help because most of our children are immigrants and so music itself would help in that right and well it would be great to get some feedback from you later about how we can do some more with the Department of Education thank you for that question did you have a question over here we can hear you she wants to so okay I found it very interesting that you said what was not in your consciousness when you were auditioning for the was the New York Philharmonic that hired you for the first time a woman but these other factors were more more prevalent in my mind yeah I think that's great because I think maybe some pressure off of you like oh my god I want to be the first woman maybe that was good that happened that way what I'm curious about is just the whole audition process the thing about the screens I've heard about that but I didn't really know it was instilled and that is the way it is today is that true until the finals the screens come down because at the Philharmonic however a pupil of mine just won an audition for assistant principal in the Denver Symphony he said the screens stayed up through the finals they have that rule in that orchestra and at the Met at the Met too okay that's interesting it's different in every group I guess okay so my question is just a basic question because I'm a lay person music appreciator but I don't know I'm always curious with your experience who did push that envelope I know the conductor obviously has a decision to make but is there a board who picks the orchestra members who when I say push the envelope really open the envelope who said let's accept this woman I'm curious who the committee is that makes this decision when people audition in the New York Philharmonic the music director is the one who has the final say over the finalists if there are two three four five seven finalists he gets to pick the one that he wants for the orchestra and when I was auditioning I believe there were six finalists I think for the last time I auditioned that I won I auditioned three times I kept being pushed by my friends colleagues and teacher to go for it please you're good enough you should try again and I was discouraged after the second time because I didn't play well the second time I was on tour with the ballet orchestra didn't have time to practice but I felt that I kind of owed it to everybody that was pushing me to audition and I shouldn't have because I wasn't well prepared but the third time I thought I am a good professional I know what I'm doing I'll take this audition and this time I'll prepare thoroughly and it must have been Bernstein who made the decision because he was the music director he had the panel of all the principal strings plus the personnel manager who was an ex-base player an Italian ex-base player who was the personnel manager and he took a vote I gather and then he made the decision and there were two openings at the time and I was very happy when I heard that when I saw the two openings advertised because I thought that's twice as good a chance at least they're two openings so he chose the two of us that were chosen and and I feel very lucky because if Bernstein had decided at that moment it is not yet time to have a woman in the orchestra then that would have been it that would have been the last time I tried I wouldn't try again I wouldn't have tried again I would have found three times is enough that's enough you know a knock on the door three times that's okay I'll do what I was doing for the previous ten years which was freelancing which I enjoyed I enjoyed being with different orchestras and different conductors and different people every week it was fun I thought it was interesting so you know I didn't feel that I was at such a loss I didn't think that I would cease to make a living but in fact he said I know I would make a living but naturally Philharmonic was where you played the best music with the best conductors with the best musicians mostly so you know naturally that's the attraction and now the attraction is the salary then it was the music the salary in 1966 was $210 a week for eight services so that's just a little bit letting you know that it's very different it's something I'm just just you got me curious now because you said you were freelancing was that your first professional orchestra no no no if you read my bio you can see I don't know if they handed out the bios of all of us I played in New York City Ballet for ten years and I freelanced with every organization in New York for ten years before I was in the Philharmonic plus I was in the Pasadena Symphony while I was still a student in California so I had a lot of experience by the time I joined the Philharmonic I had twelve solid years of experience playing with lots of different groups ballet opera I played with city opera played with the Met five years I was a sub there an extra bass for the ring cycle which used seven bases in those years and I had a lot of work and I knew that I could handle whatever was thrown at me so it gave me confidence of course and I'll also just say one more thing the more you audition the better you prepared for auditions because the first time it's a little scary the second time you kind of know what to expect the third time you kind of get into the routine of it and you get used to playing in public where you're usually playing in your practice room or just for your teacher so it's a process every orchestra audition is different for everybody but it's all also the same it's a similar experience and you're also saying that with your third audition the screen thing didn't come into effect yet I was in the open for all of the auditions so was everybody up until the early 70's that's when they started to put the screens up every orchestra works under collective bargaining agreement and in that collective bargaining agreement for each individual organization there are negotiated rules for how an audition is supposed to be run so at the Met the screen is required to be up for every round and most music directors will find that objectionable because they want to be able to see somebody at least in the finals so for example the Philharmonic has a screen not necessary for the finals at New York City Opera it's up to the discretion of each orchestra committee and most of the orchestra committees are also very specifically designated in these CBAs and I know at the Philharmonic and everybody's vote counts differently at the Philharmonic there is a committee that listens to all the auditions and frequently the music director doesn't come until the final round so until the vetting has been done so the orchestra committee actually makes the recommendation of a candidate of a particular candidate if there's consensus to the music director but then the music director can make that final decision in whatever way he wants where as at the Met there's a specific committee and every vote it's done completely by votes at City Opera it's done by votes but it's a weighted vote where administration management the music director has more votes than each individual orchestra member I have a question since you mentioned the music director and the management as in many fields in this country even though we're approaching 50% parity of American women in the workforce in the upper echelons in the management echelons you find a real winnowing in that there are fewer and fewer women in more and more senior positions is that the case Debra Borda and Kelly there are some women in the managerial positions and I guess there's a lot of different levels to an orchestra and there's a board and then there's management that has to speak to the board and then there's the conductor who speaks to management and board and then there's us in your organizations are they mostly male at the top? I think we've had City Opera's had Beverly Sills we had a wonderful step in after Paul Kellogg left but I think you can you can say Francesca Zambolo you can count them whereas there are 10 men there has never been a woman general director at the Met whereas Beverly Sills was general director at the Met there's never been an executive woman executive director Debra Borda was for several years now she's in LA she's doing great but one thing that's related and one thing we haven't brought up and perhaps last question I'll ask and then I'll take maybe one more from the audience but the whole question of motherhood and music making the reason in corporate America that we don't see women in as many top CEO positions the percent is there are the number of Fortune 500 CEOs is you know it's ridiculous compared to what men is an often that's because women get money tracked or women take themselves out of the running for various reasons and try to get back into the running and then find that they can't what has it been like what is sort of the work life equation in the professional music industry and I'm curious if you could speak personally a bit if you wish about how mother you know the decision to become a mother or not has been affected by the fact that you are a professional musician I'm not a mother so I can't speak but I mean is that hand in glove are there are many women there are many women in my orchestra who are children and they I must say by collective bargaining agreement we have extremely I mean we the Philharmonic management has extremely liberal pregnancy leave and maternity leave and there are several married couples in the orchestra that have had children and one can stay home with the child as long as the child is under two years old when we go on tours one parent has to go on tour the other parent can stay with the child and if it's not somebody that has a spouse in the orchestra then that person can stay home as long as the child is under two two or under so I would say that's fairly liberal and there's pregnancy leave and there's maternity leave and it's all written into the contract and it's all bargained heavily through the years it's been a bargaining process over the last 50 years so what Orrin was saying is really since in the last 50 years the orchestra life has become unionized and that's what you were saying too Laura that there's all these rules that are governing us and in New York it's very fair it sounds like and you have to understand that the 50% parity is only New York really and the big orchestras not regional and not with people less than not as well endowed but the mommy track or deciding to put your efforts into really honing your skill and being creative and being out nights and late and everything like this does make you do certain decisions yeah I feel when I was speaking earlier in the this event about wanting to be a soloist and playing chamber music and and ending up and here I am playing in an orchestra which I love and I'm very grateful to have the job and I was recently speaking with one of my daughters where I said there was a very clear point at which it was evident that I was either going to have to really continue to push my career and do recitals and do concerts or decide to have kids and I decided to have kids and after I had my twins I ended up leaving the chamber group that I was very committed to for many years in part because the kind of creative commitment that that focus like playing in an orchestra has a very specific focus where you come you're either part of a section you're a section leader but you still are responsible to somebody else is making the decisions so you can resent that or you can relax into that somebody else is making deciding what the focus of the season is going to be if you're a soloist or you're playing in a chamber music group you're creating your season you're picking your repertoire you're doing it's a it's a very different creative they're both wonderfully creative processes but they're different and for me I relaxed into being in an orchestra and kind of having my more of my personal creative processes going towards raising my kids so I perhaps chose Amamitra I chose to take myself out of a certain area of, you know, a certain professional direction interesting to hear plays out in this industry one more question perhaps he said he was questioning the fact that Vienna Philharmonic does not have as many women as other orchestras well I happen to know the former principal bass there very well because I used to loan him a bass when he came to New York to play chamber music so he wouldn't have to bring it on the plane and I raised this question with him 25 years ago and he said when the players of the Vienna Philharmonic who also teach at the Vienna Conservatory and teach a very strict style of playing which still is continuing in the Vienna Philharmonic when they have good students there they will want their students to come into the orchestra and that is what has happened he said it will only be a question of time he said many of the older men in the orchestra are used to this kind of situation and when they retire and the new group comes in and we have our students this is when it will happen and he was absolutely right he's retired now from the orchestra he's not there anymore but he continues to be interested in the welfare of the orchestra and I have to say I admire the fact that they conducts them they hire their own conductors they do not have a management that tells them you have to play with this person this week and this person is going to be your music director they do the choosing they are pardon me they are unique they are and they also are part of the Vienna Opera Orchestra they have to do 16 operas a month in addition to whatever they want to do with the Philharmonic so it's a combination thing and it's been in existence actually since 1842 which is the year that the New York Philharmonic was founded so we're actually in a way we're sister orchestras and I feel very close to them because if we had continued to have the autonomy that we did when we started in 1842 I think it would be a different situation now if we had the same kind of control and I don't mean the women situation I mean the musical situation and I admire them tremendously for preserving their style in the face of every person coming in and saying oh no you have to change this you have to throw away this addition of the Beethoven 5th and you have to do my way they preserve the great traditions of the past which I admire greatly so I have to say what a treat I know I have to say what a treat it's been to have these women come up pit and give voice to these issues that I've learned so much today I'm itching to hear you all play and if only we had three other chairs for your instruments they should be the panelists too I also I think it's interesting just looping full circle how when you were all talking about your trajectories and you all talked about parents or others that influenced you whoever they were but you each obviously have such drive and passion within and just to hear you speak about your music making has been very moving for me and I think it's you know you're quite an extraordinary group of women and it's been quite a pleasure to moderate this discussion today I think Dr. Sackler did you want to yeah I just want thank you Debra and I wanted to thank you for coming passion love it was very interesting for me to hear you and talk really about the music and the music over the gender and how because your immersion was in a different place and in many ways it sounded a little bit as though you might not have experienced gender bias in your life growing up and you were able to achieve what you wanted to achieve and you had the support of fathers of fathers of men of women and so at the point that you were at a moment where it was significant in a cultural or a societal way you hadn't sort of noticed because you were immersed in the music and that's a wonderful thing at the same time that you were able to make that make that breakthrough for all of the women that are coming after you and it's just so wonderful to hear all of your stories and I want to thank you so much and for making beautiful music that we all love and enjoy and it's terrific and thank you very much for coming