 Very synonymous with the goal of this course. If you remember recall the first day when we started the objectives, the aim of this course is to develop leadership and management qualities in the young managers available in the industry today. So in that sense, the topic today is going to be more relevant and more important for you. We have Mr. David Drury from the IAEA. He is the technical head for the Human Resource Department. He has a very long experience. He will tell you about his experience as he speaks in the nuclear industry in both UK and EDF. I'm sure you will get a lot of benefit from his presentations. Also, we have another industry specialist from today, James Hilcoe from the USA. He is also a very experienced person in the nuclear industry in quality assurance and emergency preparedness. In many departments, he has worked in the nuclear industry, both government and private sectors. So I will hand over the sessions to Mr. David to carry on forward. Yes, sir. I'd say, yeah. Can you hear me OK? OK, yeah. OK, thanks. Thanks, Ashil. So I'm kind of with you today, me and Jim, where James, sorry, where the lecturers. So today's title, Continuous Improvement, Competence, and Leadership. So we're going to talk about subjects that are kind of connected to all of those themes. I'm going to start off talking about competence and human resource challenges in the nuclear field and then moves into workforce planning because they're quite closely connected. And I know we've got a whole mix of people attending school this week. So it's quite useful because we've got some experience operators and some embarking countries so there's usually a good chance to have some good questions. Then we're going to move into leadership. And Jim's going to start us off talking. James is going to start us talking about preparing technical specialists for nuclear manager-struct leadership responsibilities, which is a really interesting topic. And then I'll pick up on that theme and talk about some of the principles of nuclear leadership and then stakeholder involvement, which is actually one of the key responsibilities of leaders and indeed all members of the nuclear fraternity as it will be. So thanks for that introduction. So my name's Dave Jury. I've worked for the IAEA for about 18 months now. And I work in the nuclear power energy section. And I get involved in the kind of people engineering topic, if you like. We kind of have two teams. One team looks after hard engineering, electrical, mechanical, INC stuff. And myself with a couple of other people I introduce, we look after what we call people engineering, actually. We call it people engineering because we're trying to really get the world to think of the people side of running nuclear power plants as equally significant as the engineering side. There is a tendency to think, because we're all engineers and scientists, that it's all about plants. And in actual fact, the most challenging part of running the nuclear sector is the people. And it's also extremely expensive, just to put some figures on that. Can anybody estimate when you're running nuclear power programs, nuclear power plants, what the cost of the people, the cost of the budgets are for running those plants? If I told you that most operating organizations have them, what they call an O&M budget, operating and maintenance budget. And they run cycle to cycle with this budget. Excluding plant depreciation and fuel costs, it's probably the biggest cost outlay that you have to have when you're running nuclear power programs. If anybody has any guesses to what proportion of that O&M budget is people related, 50% yet. Any other guesses? 40? Any answers? OK, so that's pretty close. Between 40% to 60% of all operating costs, the nuclear power plants are people related. So if you think about that, that's probably several hundred million dollars per year for some big fleets. So in terms of asset management, it's also a huge number. So that's why it's really important to get this people stuff right. And as you will have seen from your discussions this week, not just for the commercial aspects, but for the safety aspects. So we're going to talk about competence, knowledge, and human resources challenges in the nuclear field. My background actually started in the industry a long time ago as a nuclear chemist, actually. And then I became a nuclear operator, a nuclear physicist. And as you will find throughout your careers in the nuclear sector, you will have fantastic opportunities to do all these different things. And that's one of the benefits of working in the nuclear sector. So I'm kind of a techie person. And I came to the people stuff about probably 15 years ago when we were rebuilding parts of the organization I worked with, rebuilding the people model. And I came to realize that it doesn't matter how bright our workforce is, it doesn't matter how good the equipment that we buy is, unless we kind of marry the two together, then the industry is not effective. And indeed, the industry will get challenging in terms of its future capability. So that's what led me into it. And I'm quite passionate about the people stuff. So I came to work at the agency. I'm just going to start with our mission, which is what it's about, really, maximizing the contribution of nuclear technology to the world while it's verifying its peaceful use. So this is a pit detection from the UN. I hope you all get the chance to go to Vienna to some of the meetings we have there. We have some fantastic stuff. And indeed, we'll talk during the day about all the facilities and capabilities we have because there's a lot of documents. There's a lot of information. There's lots of courses, as you know, from being here. That can support your development in this field. So this is a team I work with. We've got a whole mixed bag of international people. Lotta looks after training. She's from Sweden. Dr. Pies from Finland. I support the organization management. Some of you may know Matt Van Sickle, some of the American countries. Matt did a lot of work with the infrastructure. I think he had Sean here this week or last week early. Matt used to do Sean's job, so he's now moved into our team with part of that. And indeed, I think you've got a member of your course here. Can you slice it out? Anybody know that bloke? And he won, he's from Korea. So we've got the chairs because we're recruiting a new vacancy this week, hopefully. So we're a small team, and we kind of cover nuclear training, nuclear leadership, to a certain extent, in conjunction with lots of other sections. We support the embarking country program, and we support the stakeholder involvement program, which is becoming increasingly topical, not just at the agency, but actually across the world, as nuclear power becomes more and more challenged, both economically and in terms of its technical capability. So I'm going to talk a bit about what we're trying to achieve with human resource challenges, and how are we going to do it, and how does it all fit together. And then I'll kind of move into competence. What does it mean, competence, actually? What you find with the agency when you work across an international frontier is, competence means lots of different things to different people in different countries. So I'm just going to talk about what the agency means by competence. How do we get somebody competent? And how do we ensure we have a competent workforce, which is very topical for embarking countries? And then we'll talk a bit about education and training, education and training, pipelines and considerations. And we'll look at that kind of big picture of how that all fits together. Education training is really interesting at the moment, because with the advent of digital technologies and new ways of learning, and also the kind of drivers coming from people like yourself, new graduates into engineering, scientific fields, they really don't want to learn the old-fashioned way. They don't want to sit in ledger theaters and listen to presentations for months and months and months. They want to be much more hands-on, much more dynamic, much more cognitive learning. So the education training is really undergoing a bit of a seed change across the whole world, as the nuclear organizations look to optimize their costs, but maintain the cognitive learning experience. So that's some of the stuff we're going to talk about. So by the end of the session, you've got to outline some key human resource challenges for the sector, describe what we mean by competence, and talk about three components of competence, and then talk about the education and training pipelines that feed the workforce model. So you've got a broad understanding of task-based workers and knowledge-based workers. So they're two other terms that you will sometimes come across in the agency publications. And we can explain what we mean by that as we go through it. So what are we trying to achieve? Pretty straightforward. A workforce that has the knowledge, skills, and attributes to perform their roles safely and efficiently. It needs to be sustainable so that it maintains those knowledge, skills, and attributes. And it needs to be efficient. And we need an infrastructure and programs that support what we call suitably qualified and experienced workforce for the new preset to now and in the future. So that sounds pretty straightforward. I've got anybody from the UAE here? Anybody from Belarus? OK. So if you like, they're the two latest countries to come up to the line in terms of operating new new people program. They will tell you that trying to do this is quite a challenge, even in today's modern world. Trying to get a suitably qualified and experienced and competent workforce ready to run the plant is a real challenge. Have we got any operators in the room? People from operating countries that are already operating nuclear power plant. So I'm sure you will tell us that maintaining competent workforce is a challenge. Certainly, I was in the USA last week. We were at Oak Ridge in Tennessee, and we had some people from Romania there. We mainly operate some Kandu plants. And they were telling us how challenging it is to hold on to their workforce. They invest hugely in this workforce, and then they get tempted to go to lots of other countries running similar plants. That's just one really good example of some of the challenges of maintaining that workforce. So how do we achieve it? Well, we use secondary education systems with a strong what we call STEM bias. We have technical and vocational skills to create skilled technicians in different engineering and technical disciplines. We'll talk about those in a minute, actually. Some of the embarking countries, or countries that are thinking of developing nuclear power, they often come to us and say, how do we build up some of these vocational schools? So some of these countries have really mature petrochemical industries, pharmaceutical industries, manufacturing sectors. So they already have technical schools running in their countries. So it's just a case of taking those technical schools and converting them or fitting them with nuclear chips to get their people ready. So some of the requirements for building a nuclear workforce, most countries have the foundation blocks already in place. School programs, university programs, industrial training centers, and outreach programs. So these are some of the key standard mechanisms to start to support that. Challenge. One of the testing things is getting all this to work together. Government education, industry, vendor supplies, and international bodies. Because often when you're trying to build a workforce through an education system, you have to compete with all the other STEM based technologies in your country. It requires a significant investment, especially in retaining them. And you really have to have an understanding of how to maintain this capacity and keep this capacity. As an example, can anybody just, we'll cover this later on, but can anybody tell me how long they think it takes to get somebody from secondary school to becoming a reactor operator? How many years? 10 years? 12 years? How many? 15, yes, sometimes 15. Secondary school, university, postgraduate, and then training. Probably certainly 15 years for a nuclear engineer, nuclear physicist, health physicist. Professor Gonzales, 15 years, maybe? So that's 15 years of planning for one post. So let me talk about how it all fits together. It gets quite complicated. This kind of goes pretty quick actually. Right. And we'll go on to talk about building a pool of resources and maintaining that pool of resources. So, right. So you will have talked about some of this stuff already, this capacity building model with, I assume, Group 1 when you were talking about knowledge management. Is that correct? Who's in Group 1? Hands up if you're in Group 1. Are you in Group 1? Okay. So that's all those kind of things together, human resource development, education, training, knowledge, knowledge networks. That's how the agency describes capacity building. So you'll see that referred to and it covers, this is really important actually. It doesn't just cover operators. It covers government regulators. It covers technical support organizations, increasingly challenging to maintain those. It covers education institutions. So when you build this capacity for a nuclear power program, you don't just build it in the operating organizations. You have to have mature capacity building models in all those different sectors. And they all have to have some form of alignment to the end goal of being super qualified next experience. So each one of those functions, and I can't get my laser to work, but each one of those functions, governments, regulators, operators, should have their own workforce planning models in place to build that together. But that's really important for embarking countries. It's not just the operators. And the other thing to remember is the vendor, those of you dealing with vendors, the vendor can't always supply those. They'll probably tell you they can, but they can't. Our experience tells us that there's a lot of work required to get government and regulators fully qualified in experience with the wisdom to act in their role. Vendors will support technical support organizations in terms of contractual requirements, but again, they can't provide you with that full workforce planning model. So you have to do it yourself. You have to have your national programs in place. So that just gives you an example. This slide gives you an example of the range of HR requirements across that nuclear field. So I'm just gonna pick out some key ones. Educational institutions. So you have to have in your countries, educational institutions that can deliver this sustainable program pipeline. So we're now working, certainly Sean may have explained yesterday, we're working with a number of countries, helping them put in place university education training models and programs, technical training program for their staff, so that they can really support this pipeline. Organization involved in nuclear or radiation activities. So often some of the feeder seeds into a nuclear power program are from the radio chemistry or medical physics backgrounds. They're from the industrial physics backgrounds. And they're also from military organizations that have nuclear capability. So the classic example that we always quote is, a lot of the US nuclear industry was seeded by the US nuclear Navy. Many people moved from the nuclear Navy program into their commercial power programs in the 60s and 70s. So all these organizations are involved in this human resource chain, equipment, vendors, suppliers, construction. So for those of you thinking of building nuclear power programs, who want to really maximize the industrial involvement of your regions, you will need to think about making sure if that's going to be the case that they have adequate education training programs to meet those needs. Can anybody, I don't know if you've discussed it, can anybody make a guess for every job on the power plant, how many jobs you get regionally and then nationally? Any numbers? Well, I really got a guess on the ratio. So if you commit to supporting the construction and the development and the operation of your nuclear power program, completely internally from your own country without vendor support, because many of the contracts are now build and operate rather than internal support. So the agency's figures indicate that for every job on the power plant within a 25-mile kilometer radius, there's something like 25 jobs created in the local community. So that's a huge multiplier. And on a national scale, for a fleet of four or more reactors, we would estimate it's for every job created on the power plant, there's about 100 jobs created in the country. So when you start running those numbers, that's an extraordinary amount of kind of social influence that nuclear power programs can have. Research and development organizations, many organizations are precursors for new nuclear bill programs. Bill research reactors, some don't. Some use research reactors in other countries. Certainly some of the most recent organizations have gone to, have contracted in research organizations, but nevertheless, research reactors are a common feeder or a common precursor to building full-scale nuclear power reactors. They really serve in terms of supporting both technical support organizations for technical requirements, and in some cases regulators. Owner operators, as we said, headquarter organizations, as well as operating organizations, government ministries. So you can see the whole cycle of the human resource requirements in the nuclear field. It's quite varied, and they all have their own time scales. So competence, when we discuss competence in the office, we kind of did a poll of all the different countries, and these were some of the key buzzwords that everybody came up with. So nuclear safety roles, skills, knowledge management. Squet is a, actually it's a UK term, you've got a UK man in the audience, suitably qualified and experienced, it's in their regulations, and it's increasingly getting into a lot of the agency regulations as well. So competency, it means lots of different things. And one thing you'll find, actually, as you work across the international community, you really have to appreciate that competency will mean different things in different countries. So don't just assume that your model of competency is the model of that country you're working with, or the host organization, or the vendors matches up. So this is what we mean in the agency by competence. Knowledge, skills, and attributes in a particular field, which when required allows a person to perform a job or task to identified standards. We would maintain that you can develop it through a combination of education, experience, and training, or some of those weight more than the others, depending on what the competence requires. And we would consider that somebody who's suitably qualified and experienced would be considered competent for the identified a job or task. So we put this up here because you will be really surprised that often internally our agency people contact us and say, look, we're in a mission in this country, and there's a debate about competence with the operations manager. Can you send us what we, the agency, say competence is? So that's why we put it up here. Those three things in black, knowledge, skills, and attributes, sometimes knowledge, skills, and attitudes also referred to some countries. That's how we formally describe a competence in the agency. So how do we achieve it? So, knowledge, mainly education, theory, fundamental principles, schools, university, and technical colleges, fairly straightforward. Skills mainly training, specific application or context, nuclear organizations and training companies. So we would kind of say that the skill part tends to focus on vocational training models and programs. Does anybody understand what I mean by vocational program? Anybody tell me what I mean by vocational program? What's a vocational training program? So trade skill, so hand skill, electrical, mechanical, INC technicians, those kind of training elements. Lots of nuclear organizations run their own trade school. Some run apprenticeship schemes. Others basically take qualified technicians and tradespeople and then fit a nuclear chip through some additional nuclear training. That's a pretty straightforward way to do it. And then attributes. Okay, so we've got education, training, role modeling, norms, cultures, and culture, and customs, really coming from family, peer schools, university colleges, everything that you're immersed in will affect those attributes. So my experience is pretty easy actually to get lots of really brainy people through education and it's pretty easy to get lots of skillful people through technical training. The hardest part of getting people competent is the attributes in the nuclear sector. Why do you think that is? Why is that the hardest part? It's difficult to measure, it's difficult to assess. Okay, we'll come back to that in a minute. Okay, so it's about people's behaviors, people's behaviors. So my experience is this attribute is the most challenging and it's something that actually warrants kind of daily attention in terms of how we run the nuclear sector. We can, I'm sure many people in this room have got loads of degrees, huge qualifications. I'm sure we've got people in here who've been developed through very skillful training program. But so we can impart those knowledge and skills through those routes. But the norms, cultures and attitudes are the most challenging in the nuclear sector. Because we all have different norms and cultures. That all affects how we view the tasks that we're carrying out. We'll come back to that later on. We'll come back to it when we talk about behaviors. So we have to identify responsibilities and accountabilities of the organizational units that are delivering the business objectives. We have to identify roles and responsibilities. Then we have to identify individual competencies. So then we use those competencies as a basis for selection and recruitment. So sometimes you can recruit people that you want competently from a developed education and training model. Sometimes you have to put in place your education training model yourself. As many development countries are doing who are coming to nuclear new build. The agency uses this systematic approach terminology. And we would recommend when you're developing certainly task-based activities, you use the systematic approach to training methodology. Which is really based on carrying out the analysis of what people need to know to do their job, what skills they need to do their job, and what attitudes they need to have when they're doing their job. So when they talk about the SAT approach to training, it's really quite a simple process. Sometimes a bit over complicated when you read the documents. Doesn't come over straightforward. But the SAT approach to training is the recommended approach for training using the nuclear sector. It actually originates from lots of military organizations where they really break the task down into the knowledge, skills, and attributes. So they can work out the best way to train people. So we'll talk a bit more about training to go through. So it's just an overshot of the kind of pipeline to get somebody competent. And as I said, just to recap, on the top we've got vocational technical schools feeding a vocational pipeline. Sometimes they're connected to universities. Often that's often the case now for optimizing costs of education and training. It's fed by government policy and funds. So the government plays a key role in looking at that long-term strategic 15-year model that we talked about. And we've got this blue arrow, professionalism here, really, which is about the attitude and the attributes. Somebody asked me yesterday, are we talking about safety culture today? We're going to do a talk about safety culture. So we're going to talk about how safety culture is a bit of a golden thread that runs through all of this stuff, certainly in education, training, development, but almost definitely through the leadership stuff we're going to talk about later on. OK, I'm just going to put all these up and we can talk through these. Sorry. OK, so education and training considerations. So again, coming back to that lifetime cycle. The majority of the opponent workforces needed for the operating organization, typically for a two-unit nuclear power plant, is ranges from 600 to 1,200 personnel. So some countries have quite low manning levels. Other countries have higher manning levels, based on the actual reason they've built this nuclear power program. A good example, Belarus, their manning levels, if you like, per megawatt hour is about 1.8 percent per megawatt hour. OK, you compare that to a similar plant in Finland. They'll have 0.6 percent per megawatt hour. It's over twice as much. And when we talk to Belarus about their manning levels, why are your manning levels like this? They make it very clear that building a nuclear power plant in Belarus is much a social and welfare program as an electricity supply program. So it's a key source of employment and social development in their country. So when we talk about manning levels or staffing levels, I should say, it's really important you understand that what suits one country doesn't suit another country. Typically, most operating organizations, mostly nuclear power plants, and we've got about 450 plants operating, the average staffing level is about 0.75 percent per megawatt hour. So for 1,000 megawatts, about 750 people. That's about the average for a twin unit site. But it varies greatly. So for those of you who are involved in human resource development programs in your countries, you really have to understand what your position or end game is. I was recently in Armenia. Armenia's got an old VVR, 400 megawatt plant. 400 megawatts, quite an old plant. They had about 1,800 people manning that, staffing that plant. Because it's a social and economic project as much as a nuclear power plant makes electricity. Crucial plants supplied 40% of their whole country's electricity, so it was a vital national asset as much as a power plant. Around 65% to 80% of the workforce are typically non-graduate level technicians or task-based workers. So that figure varies a bit, actually, depending on the national education model in the country. And also, I think in modern terms, the more and more young people are going to university. Certainly, where I come from in Europe, when I went to university, typically 10% of the people went from high school to university. Now it's about 50%. So there are more graduates circulating around. But typically, the agency would recommend, as indeed we find around the world, 65% to 80% of the workforce are technician-based task workers. Some of them come with degrees, but they're task-based workers, because the majority of their work is with their hands doing tasks, specific tasks, two procedures, maintenance, operations, field operators, chemistry, task-based work. Of the graduate workforce, only around 20%, so it's about 5% of the total workforce, need a nuclear engineering background. So you don't need thousands of nuclear engineer graduates. I mean, it's OK if you do, but you don't actually need that many. You need a few nuclear engineering graduates. In the next session, I'll clarify why don't you need thousands of nuclear engineering graduates. Specialist roles, five to 10 years. I mean, probably, if you think about the school time, you can put another five years on that. But to get a really qualified, competent, design nuclear engineer takes about 10 years. They're going to make decisions about the design of the plan and put together argument for safety cases to be reviewed by the government. And they need to be pretty well experienced and understand what they're doing. In the regulatory body, there's more graduates. Anybody from the regulatory bodies here? Hands up if you're a regulator. So we've got a few. Is that a fair comment? Mostly graduates in your regulatory organization? Yeah. And on this slide here that I can't point to, but this one here. So you can see, just to visualize that, the yellow, I can't stand up here, the yellow here is nuclear engineering degrees. These are four-year degrees, kind of honest degrees. And these are kind of associate degrees, sometimes high national diplomas, technician kind of qualification. They can see proportionately the breakdown of the workforce you need. And here's the kind of recruitment cycle when you would start to recruit into the plant. So here you're going to start to recruit probably six years before you take your plant critical. You're going to start to recruit the bulk of your technician population, if you like, so that you can get them ready to run when the plant's hundered over. So they're kind of generalized graphs. Sometimes it differs from country to country based on their national education training model. Now, I will add that this kind of comment, yeah, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have lots of graduates. I went to a Chinese plant a few years ago. A new plant has been commissioned part of the 1.0 team, where we were reviewing their human resource relevant training capability. 90% of the employees on that plant were graduates. 90% because they have lots of graduates. So it was a really interesting experience because they recruit nuclear engineering graduates. 90% of the staff, and there's four units like with nuclear engineering graduates. And then they were taking the graduates and sending them off on a two-year trade skill course. So they'd selected out the graduates they wanted to become technicians. And then they were sending them off to become INC, electrical mechanical technicians for two years, hand trained them, and they'll come back to the plant as a technician. Which is really interesting. So in the Western countries that I come from, you would have technicians who would source from vocational schools, would be very separate to engineers who you would source right from university. So it's kind of almost a reverse of the model I was used to, which is really interesting. And we went back and spoke to the trade unions in the UK, actually, about that. That was really interesting. So the UK then sent a delegation to the, UK trade union, a delegation to China to look at some of their training models and programs. So having lots of graduates isn't a bad thing. That's a message I'm trying to say. But actually, to run a nuclear power plant, you don't really need lots of graduates. Because graduates are a lot more expensive to get ready than trade people. That's an economic factor in that. Okay. Most of the education components of competence, especially for professional staff, come from schools and universities. And it's really important to remember that whilst they come with science and engineering capability, the engineers also need to be competent in safety, business, project management, planning, human resource development. So they need all of these components, really, to be really well balanced. The university is establishing graduate and postgraduate programs for the first time. Often you see they have minor or major programs that are up with a major and a minor element so that it's much easier to launch the program. And universities should cooperate to provide complimentary, rather, the competitive program. This is a really important message for embarking countries. We go to lots of countries where the university is all kind of in competition to be the university to source above nuclear power program, which actually is not in the best interest. It's not in the best interest of the students. And it's certainly not in the best national interest. As you can see, this is a long-term program activity and it requires a lot of cooperation between different universities. Some specialize in the sciences, some specialize in some of the engineering. The knowledge management section that Ashok's from, they run a really, really good program that's called the ECAP program. That just spoke about the ECAP program, Ashok. It's where they basically try to get all the major universities, the STEM universities, so the science, technology, engineering, and math universities together in kind of one room for a week and map out a strategy to support this nuclear power program. So those of you who have some challenges around this space, I would recommend you to speak to Ashok's people about the ECAP program. It's a really, really good program. We bring experts from around the world who've done this before from other universities and they help kind of map out that strategic planning for that education model. And the scope of the program seems to be linked to the nuclear power program objective, increasingly so, actually, in terms of optimizing the costs around getting people ready. And I'll come back to that point in the next session. Locational training system. Yep. So ECAP. I think it's education... I can't remember. Education Capability Assessment Planning. So it's an ECAP. They'll bring a mission into your country. They'll bring maybe half a dozen people and they'll contact all your universities through the UN and then they'll bring them together and it's a really, really valuable. I think it's one of the best processes that knowledge management might actually... Start by the agency, yeah? And they bring together national education organizations in their host country, along with the government representatives. So it's really... We try to bring them together to almost act as a catalyst to get this kind of planned point in place. Very good. Vocational training systems. So many are very similar to other high-tech, high-safety orientated industries. This is also overlooked in embarking countries. Actually, you already have vocational skill development in most countries around the world. If you have any industry whatsoever, you'll have some vocational training. We were doing some work with Nigeria. Julie, anybody from Nigeria here? We're from here. Okay. So Nigeria, you have dozens of trade schools because you have such a big petrochemical industry. So you already have a great advantage in this space because you're training your people to electrical, mechanical, INC work. You're training them to work on pumps and valves and motors, electrical systems, control systems. All those components, you are already training people on... It might not be for a nuclear plant, but the beauty of this is, when you build a nuclear plant, if you think about a nuclear plant, you've got a heat source which makes something really hot, and then you take that heat away and you turn it into electricity by spinning a magnet or spinning something around the magnet. Two ways to do it. So if you think about a coal plant or you think about a gas plant, a fossil fuel plant, 90% of the components that you put on a nuclear power plant are exactly the same as you would have on a coal plant. You have a turbine system with cooling water. You have oil. You have electrical, mechanical systems in a turbine that are exactly the same. If you think about most of your secondary support side, it's identical to a conventional plant. So you must be training people already in your countries to do that. So it's only that kind of 10% nuclear bit that you need to think about in terms of the specialism. Yes, people who work in this plant, they need a nuclear chip fitted, but they don't need to be nuclear engineers to work on a nuclear plant. So those capabilities you can exploit for your nuclear vocational workers. We talk about this nuclear rise. So that's really making sure they understand when they come into a nuclear industry, they're coming into a unique industry and the safety requirements are quite unique. Indeed, the social kind of responsibilities are quite different from working in the petrochemical industry. We can talk a bit more about that during the day. But you already have that capacity in your countries. Nearly all the countries we work with have that capacity. And often people come to the agency and we tell them where their vocational colleges are, how many there are. So if you do some research, you can find out you already have that kind of base load to start from. And you can really convert some of those into nuclear skills. Anybody from Vietnam? Anybody from Vietnam here? So Vietnam did this actually. They took some of their conventional electricity supply industry vocational schools programs and they were in the process of converting them to their nuclear technician training centers. So they just basically change the labels and change the syllabus to make sure that the workers understood some of the cultural aspect about working in the nuclear industry and the impact of what that means for how they do their day-to-day work. So job specific requirements. Typically, job specific training is required for all those engineering, scientific, and technical stuff. A mix of theoretical and practical training, the training obviously has to vary according to the job function that you would expect. And we have standard kind of training programs actually that exist around the world. Operations, maintenance, chemistry, radiation protection uses systematic approach to training. So there's 450 odd, a bit more than that. Nuclear power plants running right now today. So this is very tried and tested. You don't have to invent anything new. Most of the industry positions have a requirement for continuing training. This is really important. So once you've got them qualified, you have to keep them qualified and you have to also keep them fresh. And a lot of the continuing training, it's about knowledge and skills. But more importantly, it's about making sure we keep that right attitude, those attributes of professionalism, human error, prevention, safety culture, all those elements of what we would call competency, up to date, fresh and alive in the workforce. So that's one of the primary drivers for continuing training. It's not necessary to reeducate them or reskill them. Sure, if you've got some new equipment or if there's some new government regulations you need people to know about, then you're gonna run a continuing training program. But vitally, it's important that there's cultural aspects of working in the nuclear industry. They're responsible at least for safety. They're responsibilities for error prevention, techniques, methodologies, that whole safety culture piece is a really important component for continuing training. And it's also a really important opportunity for leaders and managers who are running these plants to interface with their staff. So that's one of the things I like coming on these programs for. Because everybody in this room, it's looking to be a leader and manager in the future nuclear power organization. I assume that's why you're here because it's very expensive to send you a company who's gonna do that. Your organization's because they're investing in you as professionals. So this job specific development, continuing training, these are really good vehicles for you as future leaders to communicate with the people that you're gonna look after. You're gonna synchronize and manage. So they're quite a powerful management approach to this as well. Licensing is usually time limited. So some countries license all their positions in the nuclear power plant. Some license just the operation stuff. Others license positions of significant responsibility such as people who sign discharge authorizations for effluent treatment, et cetera. So there's a whole different range of licensing requirements from country to country. They will almost certainly require relicensing. So I think in the US, James, don't know if I'm wrong, but there's annual licensing for the reactor operator in the control room in the US. Yeah, there are most countries, some countries are 18 months. Finally enough, I was on Oak Ridge last week, we were doing a workshop on psychometrics. And in some countries, a lot of the ex-Soviet union countries have licensing for psychometric requirements as well as technical requirements. So that's based on their national requirements. So there's a whole different kind of balance of licensing in terms of qualifying a nuclear workforce. And it is an important factor. Operations continuing training actually can be 20% of their work time. So control room operators have a lot of training to keep very well qualified and maintain their competencies and their licenses. That's a significant cost, 20% of the time. If you think you're going to employ somebody and one day a week they're not going to work, they're going to train. That's a significant, you think about that if you're the paper that out of your budget to your organizational cost. So that's why this is actually quite an expensive thing to do. So you have to make sure you really tune it to be optimized to deliver what you need. So there's a nice picture that kind of shows the roots. So from secondary in high school, vocational university, there's crossovers, initial training for engineers that we would tend to categorize as knowledge-based workers. It's not 100%, but we tend to categorize them as knowledge-based. Technicians are task-based, but there is some movement across. And then they go into, so they do their initial training, they qualify, then they do continuing. So it's a kind of cycle. Interestingly enough, this kind of, one of the modern trends now is to kind of recruit as kind of early as possible into some of these university vocational training programs. When I joined the industry, we would recruit here. So you kind of get qualified and then go into a pool for companies to recruit you. But because of the competition for well-qualified vocational and Newton graduate stuff, lots of companies are now recruiting in the first year of training or the first year of university. They're going and offering graduates, undergraduate jobs. Say, look, if you're successful in your course, you can come and work for us. And we'll start paying you now and we'll pay all the university fees. So what that does, it's attractive to the student because the parents especially, because they don't have to pay for school. But actually what we found in the organizations I work with, this really embedded quite a lot of loyalty in some of the young workforce. That they really, they saw an affiliation to that organization very early on and they stayed with that organization. And this is something we recommend. When we do some workshops around the world with them, develop countries that are running nuclear power programs that are kind of really losing lots of stuff, that hemorrhaging stuff to other organizations. We say, look, think about, don't recruit them here. Go and recruit them here because our statistics show that you retain, that loyalty is retained a lot longer. In some countries, when you find the individual, you need to go to second place, like I said, you can do a good job like that and... Yeah. I mean, do that. Okay, so what you're saying is, there are people who are suit, requalified and experienced, who don't follow this traditional route. Okay, well, I would say, well, that's fine. Provided you understand and you are satisfied that they are competent to carry out the work. So that means they've got the right knowledge, the right skills, and they've got the right attitudes, attributes, if you like, to carry out that specific task. I'm good with it. I think you need to be, maybe, channeling the question of the individual. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, my experience is, the most important, yeah, you're quite right. So people don't have to follow this route. They may come in here later. There may be mature students. There's lots of different routes to getting up there. My personal experience is, the hardest thing to get in an employee is the right attitude. So if you've got people who've got the right attitudes, it's a heck of a lot easier than somebody who's got the qualifications, but is not gonna possess those right attitudes and attributes you need for a nuclear worker. Okay, so here is, yeah? Oops, sorry, this is a bit too quickly. Yeah, so, okay. So phase one, you're not gonna have this top bit, are you? Because you haven't got a plan. Phase one, you're still thinking about getting a plan. So phase one, you want people who are qualified, probably through this route, through your NEPIO or your government organization, two, we're gonna make the decisions. Yes, we're gonna have a plan, or no, we're not. So this is kind of a full blown operating nuclear power program model. So for a NEPIO, yeah, you'd have, we'd be really into this sector, because the NEPIO doesn't really need any vocational skills. It's all about making decisions and intellectual thinking, isn't it? So for phase two, you'd probably move into this because what you find in phase two, so phase two is you've made a decision that you're gonna have a plant and you're now assessing all your options for that. So you're looking at your sighting, excuse me, you're looking at your sighting, you're looking at the industrial involvement that you want to have and you're also looking at what plant you want to buy. So the vendors all come with all their plants and they're all pretty good plants, to me. So you'll probably, again, we'll probably need some of these people into here because these people are gonna help assess some of the bids for your plants. And you probably don't need these until you really get into early phase three. But you need to be thinking about getting these ready because in phase three, you're talking about probably five years, six years before you start, before you take the route to critical in theory, probably nine years or more. But you need to think about, okay, in phase two, you need to be thinking about how do we plan for this? And we'll cover that in the next session, okay? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that retention is a real challenge. So can I actually come back to that question in the next session? Because we talk about what kind of models, in fact, we'll cover it here later on. We'll cover it later on, actually, and we'll talk about what we plan. We had a similar problem a few years ago in Brazil, actually, we went to Brazil, Angaro. Anybody from Brazil here? Angaro, you're from out in an awesome place. I'm really lucky, I've been in 100 different flower plants. That is a really nice flower that's located. The operator's gonna clock off and then go surfing, is that all right? Okay. So Angaro, they had a real challenge retaining some of their graduates. Partly because a lot of them had come from São Paulo and Rio, down to the plant, two or three years, and then they would leave and go and join Petrograd. So we tried to work with them to develop some retention strategies. One of the challenges for them was the government was quite restrictive in how they would allow or not allow changes to the recruitment policy. So it's not an easy fix, actually. Sometimes it comes down to money, sometimes it comes down to lifestyle. And that's why we would recommend, if you're investing hugely in these workforces, this is a huge investment, you will get benefit from recruiting them very early on. Not wait until you've left the university. But it's not an easy fix. I mean, it happens in kind of mature organizations with nuclear power programs, this happens now. In fact, I've come from the UK. We effectively have kind of three nuclear organizations all competing for the same pool of graduates. So there's EDF Energy, which is running a fleet of reactors, building Kinkley Sea, and it's just planning to enter decommissioning. There's Horizon, who were building potentially two twin units. And then there's New Gen, who were looking at potentially building three twin units up in the north of England. So right now, for the kind of safety case work, we're all competing for the same kind of graduate pool. And there's two things you can do. You can either kind of fight off the other organizations, or you can accept that you're gonna lose some and accept that you're gonna gain some. So there's two ways to do it really, depending on how you map out your HR strategy. Okay, so this is just to show you the kind of typical content of and durations of kind of getting somebody ready to be working in the nuclear organization. So it's a bit generalized, but it covers for operation stuff, engineering, maintenance, and technical support stuff. It kind of covers the bulk range. Typically you induct them, then there's everybody gets an education in nuclear fundamentals. Maybe for technicians, it might be four to six weeks. Engineers might be 12 weeks. Reactor operates potentially significantly more. Plant systems and processes, six to 12 weeks. And then role specific. So it could be six years of training on top of that before you get your individual fully qualified. Say they're a design engineer or a nuclear engineer, they're gonna make decisions about changing core configurations that will immediately impact reactivity in the core. So you want those people very well qualified and trained before you let them work independently. So that just kind of gives you a range of the kind of groups and the types of stuff that you would see. So if you scour all the literature, Wano, Impo, IAA, it pretty much breaks down something like that. So integrated management systems. What we say is, you may have touched on this topic already, the nuclear sector talks about integrating practices and processes together. So for human resource requirements, that would be recruit, select, train, get them qualified. So that's about making sure that all these kind of things are connected together. And a nuclear knowledge management is really one of the key threads for these programs, capturing and transferring knowledge, storing knowledge and having knowledge banks. I don't know, I sure would have talked a lot about that this week. But this kind of integrated approach is really important. What do I mean by that? Well, you may wanna initially train people to be engineers working in your design function or support functions. We then move across to become operators. And the operators typically, they move back into the engineering functions, which is a really good asset, because when they're working on the engineering problems, they've operated that plant, they really understand how it works. So that kind of integrated approach to your HR program is really important in terms of making it more efficient. Oh, sorry. So the big picture. So I've tried to make this really simple. It's quite, this kind of HR stuff and capacity building cuts across all sorts of national needs, international requirements, and it's kind of almost cyclic. It includes recruit, train, manage their performance, develop their career. So there's all these different elements in HR, the succession planning, performance management, and then they're gonna retire. And so you've got this whole cycle in this workforce planning model. And we'll talk a bit more in the next session about that. Guidance. So the agency has a huge amount of material on HRD stuff. There's a really, really good document in workforce planning, actually. One of my colleagues, Brian Malloy, who's the author of that extremely useful document, but there's lots of supporting documents. And also one of the jobs we're doing, we're just constructing it. To try and make access to this information a lot easier, one of the complaints I always get, and I used to give to the agency when I was working with them, and now I receive it from my colleagues, is you've got all this really good stuff, but nobody knows where it is on your website. So we're developing a digital hub, but Samuel's involved in this, that will allow access to this information much quicker. So hopefully by the end of the year we'll have a workforce planning digital hub that you can access or you can access to community practice, but HRD, eBooks, so some new documents we've got under publication rather than wait years to get them out, we're gonna put them out as eBooks so you can have instant access and comment on them, and some connections to all the other really useful stuff we have. So Samuel can fill you in on the digital hub in the next couple of days. But there's over 36 documents, so there's a wealth of information if you search them documents on good advice, good practices, education, training, and competency. I think it's fair to say, I shook isn't it, that education, training is one of the key elements that the agency does in all the sections. Nuclear safety have a whole chunk of it, nuclear security, so there is a wealth of stuff available for member state. So by the end of this session you should be able to outline some of the challenges for the nuclear sector. So we talked about retention, we talked about education, training, about the length of the pipeline. Describe what we mean by competence, so the three elements, knowledge, skills, and attributes, or attitudes, we won't accept that. That's a good question for Friday. Describe education, training, pipelines, and the feeders. So we talked about those task-based vocational sourcing, knowledge-based university sourcing, but there are variations depending on your national circumstance. Okay, any questions on that? What I would suggest is we have a five minute break, literally no more than five minutes, and then we'll go into the next lecture because I don't want to go bang, bang, you'll all be falling asleep. Yeah? Yeah, I'm just hearing that you want to reduce the amount of research for the nuclear number. Yeah? So is there any study or something that regards the response of multiple units? Okay, we haven't got any studies on all recommendations on numbers for SMRs, but I would imagine one of the vendors, because there's a number of potential vendors with SMRs, I would imagine they will provide numbers to say how advantageous it is to have an SMR rather than a big plant, but you would expect it to proportionally be much less because it's a smaller plant that needs less attention, less maintenance, but we don't have any numbers. I'll tell you what, can you hold your questions and then we'll pick you up at the start of the next session because these two sessions are connected, is that okay?