 Let's begin. Let me welcome everybody. Welcome to the future transform. My name is Brian Alexander. I'm the form's host I'm its creator. I'm also the chief cat herder for the next hour I'm delighted to see so many of you here today. We have an important topic and a great guest Matt Alex is one of my favorite people in the higher education space He is a dynamo of energy constantly racing around. I have no idea how he does all this But he hosts conversations on clubhouse. He's constantly bashing away at people on linkedin He's thinking networking and above already a consultancy that tries to help colleges and universities redesign and rethink higher education and that last point is something that we've been working on here in the forum for almost six years So with no further ado, I really look forward to bringing him on stage. Let's see how all this works Here he comes How you doing Brian? Hello Matt. Good to see you, sir Good to see you too. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Oh my pleasure. You're in Chicago. I am I am I Think you can see a little bit of my skyline Out there, but yeah, I'm in I'm just a little bit in River West in Chicago for the folks that know Chicago Oh nice, but we should be hearing some howling winds soon. I suspect. Yeah Well man, you've you've been a participant in the forum for years So you know how we like to introduce things we'd like to ask people to tell us what they're gonna be working on for the next year So so tell us what are what are the big ideas the big topics and the big projects that you're gonna be looking at for the next year Yeah, so I know one I want to say, you know, I'm very grateful for the work that you do and and the people that you Bring together. It's it's something that's so needed, you know, I've been in higher ed for about 30 years 20 of them, you know consulting some of the most Largest schools state IV and and community colleges, you know, we're just in a different time and Things that I did 20 years ago is not the work that I will do moving forward It's not the work that I do today and that's really helping campuses re-imagine Their academic enterprise their campus enterprise Getting them to think beyond just the transactional elements of what a campus does, you know enrollment to back office transactions I in my new firm and that's beyond and I don't really like to talk about it I I believe beyond stands on its own I believe the work that I do is Anybody can do and so I really foster that discussion and the discussions really around How do we enable the right transformation and at the universities that all of us can get behind? Right now if you ask schools what their purpose is You will get a different Viewpoint from faculty you will get a different viewpoint from students You will get a different viewpoint from parents a different viewpoint from Administrators and you will get a different point from industry, right? but we have to serve all of them and So the question that I always do and I always work with the leaders that are on campus is How do we serve you to help whoever you're trying to resolve the problem for? So the next you know the past year. I've been really focused on I would say Campus leaders that have asked me to say hey Matt You know coming out of the pandemic. How do we make this transformation my discussions pre-pandemic was much different We were very Tactical enrollment based, you know The discussion I have today is about how do we reimagine how we serve our students? How do we serve our faculty? How do we serve our industry and the work that I'm doing now and I will be doing in the upcoming years and beyond is Helping leaders become leaders that will form campuses that serve all type of students Right now. We don't always serve all type of students and so I work with some of the largest community colleges today We imagine what they do. I work with some of the mega schools I work with some of the smaller schools that are in the crosshairs of of the pandemic still, you know and I Would tell you my my work is is going to be Evolving because everyone's work on campus is evolving the way we will serve and the way we teach and the way we You know produce things is going to be different and I like the way you kind of said I I kind of bash people on LinkedIn I always make the statement that I'm just making people feel a little bit uncomfortable and A lot of times people just say things just to say it and a lot of times people just Are very comfortable with what they know. I sometimes want you to think about what you don't know How do you unlearn what you know? Yeah, that's when I get the conversations going and you know, I Have conversations on campus with with different type of constituents And I and I welcome that because sometimes I may not be right, but let's have that conversation as we move forward so Very good. That sounds like a very very busy year with quite a lot that's steak Friends, I have some questions, but this form is for you. This form is for your questions from that And again, you can do so you can pose those questions by either hitting the raised hand button to quickly join us on stage Or you can hit the question mark button to throw in a question or a comment And just to help get things rolling. I like to start with one question of my own and then hopefully get out of the way Matt, which is People have been talking about the idea of a snapback Once the pandemic infection rate drops below pandemic that there's a big drive to try to recapture where we were say fall 2019 but how can we not do that? How can we advance and Try to retain and build on our successes the things that we've done well that have actually been a step forward Yeah, and I I'm all with it for us not snapping back because I'll be honest as a as a partner at Deloitte I was I was frustrated working at schools that didn't want to transform I really felt that we needed to Get people to recognize what the future holds and this goes back to Who are we serving? You know, what does the student of the future need? How do we work with them to meet their goals and aspirations? You know President LeBlanc always makes the statement, you know time is the enemy of the poor and yet we as a Higher ed ecosystem we we are on a earn it model and as long as we focus everything on earning something earning 120 hours earning Your grade earning a GPA earning. We become in this model of like earning something Coming out of the pandemic. We have to start to look at how do we build? campuses that focus on learning to learn it model, you know, how do we teach them competency? How do we form the right majors that allow them to go into market? How do we work with high schools to come in and help them? Formulate dual enrollment so that when they come they're not unprepared I will tell you the conversations I have with faculty is students are not prepared when they come on to campus Well, we can't fix that unless we work together with the high schools So when we think about a pre-pandemic higher ed, we were isolated We were isolated as we are the institution and everyone has to follow our rules We serve a certain way we we were driving towards a certain set of metrics And I think we got to say who are we serving? What type of students are coming in? How do we build on that and then we learn so much during the pandemic in terms of the technology? We've now we've now all can agree that you can actually have a lot of communication Virtually like just this dialogue is as good as a lecture in a lot of cases, right? So why can't we have this dialogue with as many people as we want? You know, we have 130 people here. Why can't we have that in a classroom setting at virtually? But then when we are on campus, how do we become interactive? How do we start having that critical critical reasoning critical thinking? If we start thinking about the future of engagement as opposed to the past of engagement I think we will drive a institutions that aren't going to snap back now The schools are in the crosshairs. They better not snap back Because they're going to go out of business because the Because the mega schools and the schools that are reaching, you know, 130,000 students Are going to take their students away and if it's about enrollment There it's a losing game But if it's about the brand and the value that you're going to bring them How do you specialize certain things for them? How do you give them the convenience and the affordability that many people are looking for? That's when the schools and the crosshairs has to look at it Now the IVs and the state schools and the ones that are research one You know what they don't have to make a lot of changes And that's okay because they serve a certain set of students But I think there is a set of students that we don't service That a lot of these schools can serve And I think that's what we should be really be focusing on And I think then you won't snap back Because if you do snap back, you're going to put yourself in the crosshairs That's a that's a great answer In the chat there's been an exchange from several people including Mechia Plurid and Regina Ribet who have mentioned that We need to be serving students who we're failing to serve Which is which is terrific Friends there's a That's my question and you can see Matt as a furious thinker with a lot of great stuff Let me bring on one of our questioners up on stage Our old friend Tom Haymes coming to us from Texas And he'll continue I think a blue theme a blue visual theme as we as we go Me and Tom might have called each other I'm stuck in the blue room have been for the last two years Yeah kind of messes with your sense of perspective So my question is this is that you know you mentioned earlier a bunch of different Stakeholders in the educational process And that different stakeholders have different goals that want to be pleased and so on and so forth I kind of I understand where you're coming from But how do we get those all to be aligned instead of having to You know play one tune for one group and one tune for another I mean We have I think the one thing the last year has taught us is the importance of focusing on individualized learning Those students who I have I teach at a community college with a lot of at-risk students And and the thing that I have really born down on born down on in the last couple last couple of years since we've gone remote Is that individualized instruction to really Keep those students engaged and keep them, you know in the process And it seems to me that that should be everybody's goal And I don't know I feel like we get distracted by a bunch of other things. How do we work towards some sort of alignment on that? To be more student-centered Yeah, so the the way that I do all of my Work with my clients I start with a design thinking model and if for the folks that aren't familiar with design thinking It is around who are your personas in your campus? So of course we have students, but you may have a first time First time in college student you may have an international student You may have a a student that it has a single parent home We may have a socially disadvantaged each of their needs are somewhat different In the way that we Support them. So of course when we design the whole campus We know what all of them need and we design very systematically to what everyone needs But then there is these elements of every campus That we have to figure out how do we personalize it for that first time in college student who needs More guidance during that process. How do we work with the low income? Areas where the high schools are not preparing their students. Well, how do we put programs in there? And your community college could easily step into a high school ecosystem and bring them along Earlier in that process where you there's some funding and other things that but some of the colleges I do are doing dual enrollment at that point. Um, when we think about a design thinking model We not we need to understand what their aspirations are because My daughter goes to a big name state. I mean a big, uh, private university Her needs are very different than the community college kids that my The my clients are serving right and so how do we serve them? So we have to identify who they are Some students don't need that help. They they like to be on their own They want to be driven on their own But there's some students who don't even know that they need help So part of the design thinking element is what are their aspirations? Some are just to get it just to get into college some is to get their first job Some is to transfer to another school some is to you know Allow for them to have a job and go to school so that they can provide So we have to design systems and educational ecosystems that do that now I believe that there are different type of institutions that serve different people and Not every institution Should look the same your culture shouldn't be the same your academics should not be the same The reason that we there's a issue on cost is that everyone does the same thing We just put a different brand and a different location and say oh, we're university of this But there's a criminal justice degree major everywhere The reality is do we need a criminal justice major from every department and i'm a criminal justice major That's why I kind of say I use that as it but What i'm getting at is we need to start to Every school doesn't have to be everything It has to be who you're serving How do you serve them in a much more effective way and that starts with design thinking and we run design thinking sessions And we go into the where's friction for that that student when I say friction Is that student gets lost in the admissions process that student gets lost in the financial aid process That student gets lost in the career service car Like where is the friction that your campus is putting in front and how do you solve for that? And that could be solved differently for the different type of constituents that you have As you move forward Yeah, I think technology opens a lot of doors for campuses to be to look different to every student Yeah, that's one thing we sometimes miss is that we can customize the the front end of the school Around the means of the student to a much greater degree than it used to be the case because We can plug in pieces of technology To provide a sense of community for students who have trouble getting to campus to provide You know that entry into all sorts of cultural or Sessions like this like the forum, you know to have conversations with people who are experts in the field and so on and so support so Yeah, that's it's it's it's a tricky mix I think a lot of colleges kind of miss that because they're still thinking in the in the 20th century in terms of what they can do Yeah, you know, you know, tom the one thing I would say is um You have to get everyone aligned to a to at least an idea of what where there we're all going I do a session that talks about modernization. What does modernization mean? Right? It's such a hefty hefty word right modernization means different things for different people So I actually go and say, okay. What does amazon? What does it feel like to be? Modern in amazon world. What does it feel like to be modern in uber world? What does it feel like to be modern in starbucks? And the reason I do this is that I want them to understand You you appreciate all these modern things In the way that they engage the way that they serve you the way that they approach You know, how you who you are as a customer a consumer, you know, all those things are really important And because I all of a sudden let them define what modernization feels like that feels good for them I say and you do that on a campus. How do we make it fast? How do we make it quick? How do we make it personalized and tom you hit it on there's so much technology that we can use we are We are operating at 400 times a blink of an eye technology And what I mean by that if you blink your eye data processes at 400 times a blink of an eye, right? If you just look at your iphone and it looks at them That's how fast data is processing the reason that we can do things so much more effectively If you adopt technology Is because we're operating now now the problem that we have in most universities is that when they have an issue They go and ask for a technology to solve it without actually stopping and saying what are we trying to do Who are we serving? What does modern look like and then Can we adopt the technologies that are out there already? At a fraction of the price because they're already there and it's already built How do you adopt it to the use cases that you're trying to serve in your campuses? You go to the solution before you define the problem. That's a big problem I have I fight my own students about that. I do that in my classes and it's it's so hard to get people to do that Oh, yeah, I've got an answer. Anyway, well, that's thank you, brian. Oh, thank you tom. Always good to see you And everybody knows that's an example of a video question Uh, now i'll give you another example as we have regina arabi. Oh my gosh. I hope I haven't completely destroyed her name From guild education. She has a different question. Hello Hi, thanks for having me up on the stage. So I love the talk about interdisciplinarity that was referenced And and thinking about how do we Tie together, you know high school with kind of college and as we're thinking about transfers, you know from community college to four-year schools There's a lot of talk about collaboration and interdisciplinarity and even within institutions But we rarely talk about what are the systemic Barriers that are preventing such interdisciplinarity and systemic collaboration to occur Um, so we'd love to kind of have a discussion around that because I think a lot of them exist Even even as we think about, you know academia and and and the desire to maintain tradition or Rankings and how they pit us against each other Are kind of a few examples that that kind of come to mind You know, we just if you just think about those things we just have to look at the admissions process, right? It's not systematic Um, we use grades that aren't uh normalized in any way You know an a and one institution is not an a and another institution We have standardized tests where You know, I could I can hire You know tutors to get my daughter or my son in a better grade where there's others that can't do that um So there's these systemic wrongs that are just inherent in what we do because you know Sometimes it's it's cool to say I go to a certain school or hey I go to a school that's ranked a certain way like we we're almost living off of You know the stature as opposed to the value of that education Preparing these students for the life that they're going to live, right? Um I was probably one of those students that were not prepared to be in college at the time, right? But I had people that drove me to be to learn how to become prepared I had good mentors out of college that prepared me to do it I believe it takes a village and it takes a community and I believe it takes all institutions for me I'm not a believer that you have to get a degree from one institution. I believe that you know, um The asset that that institutions Have is the knowledge that they disseminate and that knowledge is disseminated by faculty that are within those campuses But we we restrict them to be able to go to other To be able to get to a faculty member that might teach you kind of a certain way or that allows for a better Experience in a classroom because not everyone learns the same way not everyone's teaching style is the same So when we say you have to get a degree from one place I believe you're already systemically kind of boxing people into a lot of things now This your question opens a lot, right? There's a lot of things that we could probably a whole do a whole room on it either on clubhouse or another forum I believe that we all have to recognize that Well, the system we're in is not fair to everybody And it has to be the first thing we have to recognize is that While we like our titles, you know, everyone loves titles What was that Brian hang on one second Regina, can you hear me? Yeah, I can Okay, I think we might have lost Brian Yeah Sorry about that. Just had an audio glitch on my end. Just quickly reload the page Uh Matt that was a fantastically rich answer and and the the chat box is blowing up with all kinds of responses. Regina Thank you so much for that great question I'm happy to have a separate sidebar conversation Because I do believe that it has to be across the board. It has to be lifelong learning It has to start early. It has to end late. I think uh with future of work We need to make sure that we are building a ecosystem that is constantly teaching people What to do at the way that they need to learn at the time they need to learn to so Yeah, I would I guess Push us all to not, you know, I think the fad of design thinking is great But this is then a plug for systems thinking and we often don't spend the time to really think about the systems and and the inequities and I think combining the tools would be really powerful Thank you Thank you. That's a great idea Friends, if you're if you're new to the forum, this is the kind of questions that people ask And there's still room for a lot more and you could tell that matt is happy to to engage so again, just Click the q&a box And in fact, as I mentioned this a few questions have come in One came in On the chat. I just wanted to share this quickly. Give you a sense of what you think about this Joe Let me see if I get his name right. Saloito asks there's a massive move to capture market share i.e You mass acquiring brand men university of arkansas acquiring grand thumb University of arizona acquiring ashford the race for the adult student market I'm just wondering if if you can riff on that a little bit What do you think about that move? Yeah, so eventually where universities are going to move towards Is an educational marketplace right that allows for The The border the walls of that we have had on around campuses to be brought down and that's what you're seeing You're seeing what anytime you hear a global campus or you know, you know University of online and and things coming in um You are starting to see the first iterations Of an educational marketplace where online learning is going to be decentralized in a lot of ways Now i'm a believer that you need you need to have in-person interaction There's value to be on inside of a classroom or be inside of a setting that allows you to interact so I don't I don't think it's going to be that everything is going to become online but I do believe that Uh universities will look and feel a little bit more like continuing ed ecosystems where it won't be a 16 week course It could be a pop-up on certain topics. It could be certifications on demand it could be that a 16 week course is now broken up into parts that You remove the time element of it and you put the learning element of it And that's how students are going to get into Their pathway into their careers and so forth, you know There's no reason why we need 120 hours and I'm not trying to bash anyone for 120 Like I have a 120 hour degree But I'm saying is we when we require a 120 hour degree We are we're making it a very expensive You know investment to get into the market and I'm a believer that how do we get people into the market sooner? So maybe it is Allowing you to work your way to 120 hour degree or work your way into a master the work yourself Into the right programs And I believe this educational marketplace will allow for decentralization. So you'll start to see blockchain You will see a lifelong learning model. You will see a fit for purpose and that That is where we look at the future of work because work is going to be changing Who does that work? Where's that work done? What technology is there? The 400 times a blink of an eye technology is going to be 800 times a blink an eye It's going to be a lot different as we move forward And it's and you have to have the transformational discussion before you have any technology discussion But I believe the one that I think is going to differentiate us here and and these and these institutions that are absorbing these online Is the culture of service How do we become a culture of service? How do we serve that personalized need of that student through the journey? In that in their lifetime of learning as they move forward and that service is going to be convenient It's going to be on demand And it's going to be able to do it to whatever they need at the time they need it as they move forward Okay, I was I was going to ask how this would be new and then you answered my question before I could say it Which is great. We have a Q&A question has come in from hilda van dyke and we put this up on the screen She asks what is your idea of peer learning and the teacher as a coach and how scalable is this? So, you know, I'm all for I believe teachers have to be Teachers to other teachers. I think there is value to that So when you say teachers as a coach, I are you asking That the learner they are coaching the learner. Are you talking about Teachers coaching other teachers. I'm not sure on their question I I think and hilda, please correct me if I'm wrong that she's referring to students teaching each other Got it. Got it. Okay. Um I believe that You know, there's five learning languages and the fifth one is about spoken You learn from from speaking with each other. So I believe when You learn as much when you're teaching someone how to do something you learn yourself because you start to understand it You sometimes a challenge to that. So I'm a big believer that Learning has to come in different modals and I believe You know peer learning is is as important. This is where I think having even a diverse ecosystem within a campus which could be Provided by a more online learning ecosystem because you may get someone who isn't from your social economical class and maybe someone with a diverse Background it could be someone that has a different religious background You learn so much from that now. I went to a big state school here in Chicago We were very diverse and I there was diversity in so many ways language ethnicity color All that was as a play and I believe that's how I really understood how to work with people when I went into the market And when I went into the ecosystem is that I had exposure to it and I got and I learned all the time I learned from my colleagues that I work with every day. So I believe peer learning is is is an important piece But I think you have to design it in a way that Competency is being measured there as opposed to did you meet with somebody there? I think it's a little bit of what did you learn from each other as you move forward? So the competency is really key. Hilda, thank you very much. That's a really good question and Matt Thank you for the expensive answer. Again, if you're new to the forum or new to the shindig platform That's an example of a text question. I'm saying this and people are throwing in more. So I'm Behind the curve. Let me bring up another video question We've got to Richard Schultz who founded golden and let's bring him up to ask his good question Hello, Richard. Hello. Thank you very much, Brian First of all, thank you for having this forum I really appreciate the fact that you get everyone together communicating and thank you Alex for the work that you do as well as well My question is The the higher education Model that we have today is not sustainable. I think we could all agree that paying huge tuition and Going by curricula that is not really serving our workforce teaching our learners things that Are theoretical as opposed to really applicable to some of the things that they'll be doing in the workforce That's not really a sustainable model The work that i'm doing with a very small little startup group is called the global online learning Extended network or the development and extended network or golden And I can put up some information in the chat box if you're interested But we have a group and Brian you your discussions here would fit perfectly into what we're talking about We're talking about a model with higher education Where there really isn't a traditional Seat time where there aren't credit hours where there aren't degrees per se But a completely disruptive model whereby there is a subject matter expert for the content Where there is a facilitator or a mentor mentor that has the educational background to provide For the skills and the competencies that our learners must be able to Demonstrate plus an added component of some run from that particular discipline In the workforce that they're interested in so that the student would have all of this nurturing from these different key players as part of this Design what they would like in terms of the skills and the competencies on their own display those And show those in terms of a portfolio and then be able to interface with that person from the workforce So we're not talking about anything here having to do with grades and seat time That the emphasis can be on the student on the learning on the competencies the skill sets that they need to be able to matriculate and effectively work into that Disciplinary workforce that they're interested in it benefits both sides So that's just a model that we're kicking around, but I'd like to hear from some others Some feedback on that and also anybody who would like to be involved in that discussion as well Thank you. Thank you There was there was a lot there, right? Um, yeah, so i'm gonna push back a little bit Because the workforce is serving the workforce is one one goal one purpose It serves industry and it serves students, right? I think what we want to understand is How does that become a part and complement A collegiate ecosystem that is really valued by the market right now if I go to an hr person They don't necessarily say That they want a particular skill or particular They want right now a four-year degree and so the question that we have to ask is is industry ready to Unhook the degree requirement that sits out there The only way you're going to get higher ed to change Is if there's external factors that make it change because internally they sit around the same room That's the folks that look the same that wear the same blue suits that are That they have the gray hair that sit around the thing. They're having the same discussion about what they believe Market needs and industry needs. So so what we need to recognize is they're not going to change Unless industry says your degree as it is today is not necessary I need a Unbundled type of credentialing system. Maybe on blockchain. Maybe with future work alignment Like so all these things you're talking about I I know really well because I I'm I talk about it all the time the question is is that what market needs and is hr departments And industries willing to unplug that degree system because if they're not Then we have to design Richard we have to design higher ed to Make that degree system somewhat More effective affordable as you move forward because I don't think we're going to Unbundle it if people aren't going to go Recognize it. They're not going to recognize a blockchain Credential as something to get someone hired after you know six months of time or see time or whatever it is I think this has to be a collective discussion with many people and I believe it has been driven that way and I'm Yeah, I'm sorry go ahead finish and I don't think it's a one size fit all like right now We have a one size fit all everyone has to go to college everyone has to sit in a lecture Everyone has to to write notes I like there's professors that'll say well, I need them to write notes that they can't take a picture They can't like the reality of it is everyone learns differently Right. Yeah, we want everyone to learn a certain way and we learn differently. We I work differently Right. So I think what we need to recognize is that we do need it personalized but we also need to understand that We have to bring all of it together because there is good parts of of what today's campuses do in challenging people Making giving them a little bit of academic rigor that is beyond just learning a skill Like I said to you I'm a criminal justice major If I just went with the skill that was taught to me in my classroom I would be working in the juvenile system as a police officer I designed some of the most complex student systems all over the country Why because I got exposed to being able to think through, you know, um Documents write papers Make people Formulate to my opinions, right? There's all these things that we don't necessarily Actually put on a resume. We don't put that on a transcript We look at a transcript and we get a chronological order of an a b in a course It doesn't you look at my transcript You're like, what does this guy really know About changing and transforming marketplaces. We don't we have never changed that Those are the things we're going to have to change and I believe that it's not one Element I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all My daughter needed experience hence. She goes to Baylor has a great experience there She's learning and she's rigor and she needs that she doesn't need a skill based learning ecosystem Now others may let's formulate that for them as they move forward Yeah, I'm not saying it's a one-size-fits-all. Don't get me wrong And what you're saying really resonates with me It's just that employers at least that I see are really asking for gee I want somebody with these particular characteristics And they're not really all that interested in having a degree in this because they're interested in what the people can do And they're interested in how they're going to be able to hit the ground running in the workforce As opposed to having to take six months to train them to actually do something So you're all of your what you're saying here map is really resonating with me All these things I think the current curriculum has critical thinking critical reasoning Interaction like we don't put that anywhere. We don't put that on a resume other than that that that we say Hey, we do this we don't put that on a transcript. We don't most universities don't showcase it They showcase their us news reports rankings like it's missing the things that what is really Students are products And a product who can be who can work in an ecosystem who can have critical thinking critical reasoning can have EQ body language those are really important skills that no one Actually quantifies at a university or college yet you get it And that's what I think we should start showcasing as as we look through the yeah And the question I would have is how can we have those students working with those type of applications and Not necessarily skills, but the idea of the knowledge behind that. How can they demonstrate that? How can they be able to show that to potential employers? Because years ago in higher education. It was not about getting a job per se and now it's the pendulum has swung in that direction where students are Looking in higher education to finish their degree so that they can become employed in the workforce Well very different from years ago In one one reason for that. It's of course the escalating prices of higher education Absolutely I mean and we can overstate that much as we can overstate the problem student debt but the student debt Amount is enormous. I mean that's it's clear that higher education is for many people a deeply financial transaction like buying a house But I Richard this thank you so much for introducing golden and thank you for this great great questions We've got more questions coming. I'll make sure everyone's there, but I wanted to thank you Richard Thank you And matt you're clearly on fire here So I I want to throw some more some more kindling at you just to set the blades up even higher This is a question from this task gavari who has a question about credentials a very precise one As we move to stackable credentials in greater online modalities What would it take for institution of higher education to become a recognized aggregator and validator? Allowing knowledge to be obtained at different And interacting higher education institutions I I know vista well. He's not he's in my club houses. So How you doing president of the staff? You know micro credentials stackable credentials And how does how do we kind of curate this? Uh, this this goes back to my decentralizing educational marketplace It's uh, I think we have to work with right now. We have accreditors who who Who basically dictate what courses and what what majors and what all these things that we're I think we need to have a body that allows for micro credentialing to be recognized early Put put reputation behind it meaning, you know when someone is given a credential What are what are their outputs into market? I think we have to come to what I call a reputation economy Where it isn't just that someone has been given a degree But when that person is in market, how are they known and what where do they go to school? What are the type of credentials that they got? in that so I want to make sure I understand his his The question can you put the question back up because I would hang on one second back of all And I don't know what he's a he's usually camera ready. I'm surprised. He didn't want to step up Well, he just came back up. So let me let me put the Let me uh, first put the question back on and And if you're camera ready, well, I see that smiling bearded face. I'm gonna bring him on stage Just I'm just predisposed to respecting bearded men Hello, Professor Kabari Hi, how are you? Very good. So let me be a little more precise It's a little beyond Micro credentials and how we bring them together It is how do we get a university to accept That knowledge gained at a variety of different universities can be brought together to give you whatever credential you want it Whether it was a degree or a micro credential The challenge here is not just the recognition of the micro credential But the recognition that I might take Three classes at university one and four classes at university two and five classes at university three and then go to university four Right and say I want to get a degree from there with only two more classes If you truly wanted to go online and you truly wanted to have access Which was equitable Then within capacity of online modalities. We should be able to go from one to another Yep, so It's more a sort of a thought challenge than anything else beyond the accreditation. What else would it take? Well, I think some of this is People have to value other people's work too Right. So everyone thinks that if you go to this school, you're going to be educated Way better than another school and the reality of it is you may be But not every professor at every prestigious school teaches as well And at at some community colleges or some state colleges, you will have some phenomenal Educators this goes back to my reputation economy plan a discussion Um, I do believe that you know, these these schools that are becoming mega, you know in in their ecosystem I think if they start launching together western western governors to umgc to South New Hampshire, Maryville You you name it and then of course arizona all these people that are are now Assuming this role of I think if they come together and say hey Among us and you add and I would say add the community colleges into the mix Because there's really affordable courses. Why are they not in the mix? I think if you bring all of them in the mix and they start to have a body that recognizes which courses Are equal which courses can be transferred seamlessly And then where that degree is given from maybe it is from an accrediting part of that body because right now We have accreditors of an institution and that institution dictates what a degree is and I believe it should be By a broader group like right now We have people who teach Saying you have qualifications. The reality is are they really qualified? So maybe it's an external body that looks at that and I think You have you have thinkers you have thinkers in this market like that some of the mega schools that could easily Have a lot of cachet now you bring guild into the mix of this you bring others into the mix of this And I think you build a an ecosystem that is somewhat Valued in that ecosystem and then you bring industry into that and I think that's how you drive the value towards that Can can I just quickly hoist the comment from the chat that dives right into this? Rob McLeod says Dr. Aqabari, we do this mix and match all the time at our university of utah BME program. I'm not sure bme stands for here We have automatic recognition of some courses and we manually evaluate any proposal a student brings to us for credit Yours does not work this that was the question So you're absolutely correct. I mean some universities do it, but they do it to a limited extent I'm looking for it more on a very widespread extent so that a student is not restricted geographically or by admissions to a certain set of universities They can go and get that qualification. They need in a very specialized area somewhere else And then come back and get a degree. I know some universities do it, but by and large We don't allow it across the board I think the statement that should be made here and this could be where people in linkeding things I Kind of put the whip on I'm not sure if If universities and colleges should be in the business of granting a degree they should be in the business of disseminating knowledge That a degree can be gained from a variety of the knowledge, right because right now Because of the admissions process because of the way that the admissions process is systematically, you know You know restricts people into the ecosystem You sometimes will have people that will never get into A byu or other institutions because they just don't have the standards or the or are built in that way now the way that President is talking is How do you open it up let people Learn gain earn and all of a sudden they're in market because they've now learned and they've gotten through that path as you move through the process Well, there might be a public role for this In the check Catherine Weinberg says the state of alabama Is creating a master's degree in interdisciplinary studies that can stack approved certificates from other institutions into a Vessel degree from the home institution more flexibility for students Catherine. I'd love to hear more about that What do you think is that an example of this kind of thing may be happening at the state level? Yeah, I think that We it isn't a revolution. This is going to be evolution, right? So we have to get people to be comfortable with a little bit of the next step and the next step and the next step And then all of a sudden We're not we're not asking for a big change We're asking for these little incremental changes higher ed is it has a hard time changing Let alone big changes and saying hey go and accept everything I think this is this incremental mindset that has to be there I also think you have to bring outsiders into the mix of this And I think that's when you start to see the the discussions change Because sometimes you have to be in uncomfortable conversations to make that transformation And that's what I I think we should always be pushing and then the reality of it is There's times like I challenge something and people push back and they are right And you know what that's okay because then I just learned that what I'm thinking is not true or not as as well um Well thought out right and I think that's what people sometimes are afraid of it's like religion People don't want to hear other people's religion because they're afraid that their religion may not stack up And and I'm coming from a very religious family And I always use to say to my parents you have to learn someone else's religion before you actually recognize Is your religion the right religion? And I think this is the same thing in education Like sometimes you may want to look at other models to say am I doing the right model? That's a great metaphor. Um It helps explain some of the passions here Speaking of passions. We've got time for one more question. Uh, these tops. Thank you so much for that great question Stop seeing you. Good to see you. Uh, and we can bring this up. This is from the excellent, uh, sarah sangregorio Who's a phd student? We should all be learning for her soon. I hope and she asks What would you say to those people who see college as social capital or social experience that just happens to give you a credential? Is there a place for that? I I believe there is both. Um And like I said to you, I I'm I believe that different people will pick different, um That they will have driven they will have different drivers and I believe social capital is is a piece of that Um, I think everyone has their own You know value drivers, you know, either your the the five value drivers is brand, you know, someone resonates with brand There's people that have experience and want social. Um, some people want to be specialized And then the other two are convenience and affordability. I think we have to kind of allow for people to, um Consume based on what they need because this goes back to my first comment We have to define the purpose that we're really asking Of that institution and that institution. Can they serve that purpose? Uh, as you as you think through that Well, that's a first of all sarah. That's a great great probe of a question and matt I really appreciate that thoughtful answer and i'm going to reward all this work in the worst possible way by saying We have to stop We've just had a whole series of great questions and the chat has just been a seminar by itself and matt You've just been a guru to us all Let me quickly ask what's the best way for us to keep up with you? As you hurdle forward in this great work Yeah, so the best way to keep up with me is probably just on linkedin. I am As brian alluded to Um, I'm cringe worthy on linkedin. Uh, I don't I don't usually hold back You're great And and I think it's just it's necessary like if I if I hold back um I don't think people actually there's too much spin the other way like everything is Is working great and the reality of it is let's just have let's have really good conversation So one brian, I want to say thank you for letting me be cringe worthy here for for the hour I'm very accessible. You can find me at beyond academics dot com. You can find my writing But I think if you want to just get a hold of me you can email me at matt alex at beyond academics dot com Or just ping me on linkedin. I connect with people You will also find me on clubhouse. I run a clubhouse called future x tribe and I see a lot of my My friends who are there uh here And we're doing a bunch of what we call thingspaces and you will see Thingspaces are things like this, but we're going to be very engaged You'll see that as you move forward working with some of the most innovative Doing thingspaces for their uh organization as well as the campuses that I serve so Thanks so much for uh having me and I enjoy the conversation Oh, it's my pleasure. It really is um, and I really look forward to following up and seeing what else you get to do this Um, everyone make sure that you get a chance to spend time With matt online, but before I close up Let me just point out to where things are headed over the next few weeks Remember, we have a whole series of topics coming up everything from enrollment to the climate crisis to eco media to libraries If you want to sign up for more just go to forum that future of education dot us If you'd like to keep talking about all these issues from credentials to the meaning of higher education To stackability to the role of government to what learning is we use the hashtag FTE on twitter you can always tweet at me brian alexander or at shindig events You can always find me talking about this kind of stuff on my blog brian alexander dot org If you'd like to dive into the past and look at our previous sessions considering some of these topics Just head to tinyurl.com slash FTF archive and be sure to subscribe Now thank you again for all these fantastic fantastic questions and comments This has been a very heady very exciting very thoughtful inspiring hour Thank you all for that in the meantime continue your great work in this fall semester I look forward to hearing from everybody about your stories about your involvement in higher education Above all stay safe and take care. We'll see you next time online Bye. Bye