 Hello everyone and welcome to Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii, where we discuss the impact of change on workers, employers and the economy. On previous shows, we've discussed the President's immigration ban and the impact it might have on workers who come to the U.S. on work visas and the employers who depend upon their talent. For many of us, it's very difficult to put a human face on the people who are applying to enter the U.S., either as workers or as political refugees. We don't know anyone who has come from those war zones, so we don't understand what motivates those people to leave their homes and seek new opportunities in the U.S. Today's guest has spent several years in Iraq and Afghanistan as part of the United States Marine Corps' mission in those countries. From that perspective, he got to know many of the people in those areas, and today he's going to help us understand the people who live in war conditions and how they might be the same or different from the rest of us. We invite you to join in the conversation by calling area code 415-871-2474 or tweet us at thinktechhi. And now, please welcome today's guest, Andrew Yustizeski. Hi, Andy. Hello, Cheryl. Hi. So thank you for joining us. You've got, I think, a perspective on kind of the situation of the Middle East and all of the issues that are going on there that is very different from a lot of people. First of all, because you've actually been there. And secondly, because the job you did gave you the opportunity to really get to know people in the local communities that you were stationed in. If you could, tell us a little bit about the places that you were stationed and if you can without breaking any secrets, tell us about the kind of work that you did. Yes. So I've been both to Iraq and Afghanistan. I've been through pretty much every city that you can find on a map there. One of my deployments to Iraq was over 14 months straight. So I've logged in several deployments in quite a bit of time. My mission, I was always attached to an infantry battalion. And our mission was simple, to go out and engage the local populace and continue movement until we came into contact, open engagement with enemy forces. And that was the mission. Very rarely did we come into that. We considered a hard target, a hard hit from the enemy coming after us. So a lot of times we were simply engaging with the local populace and learning from that and how their lives were and trying to understand better what we were actually doing to help them while we were there. Now for those of us that don't speak marine, engaging, that doesn't mean shooting and fighting, does it? Or does it mean something else? Yes. When the enemy engages you, they're either going to lay in some form of improvised explosive device and try to coax you into that area, or they're going to do what we call backlay. When we go into a city or a town, if we take a specific route, nine out of ten times, you want to take an alternate route out because they're going to try to lay an improvised explosive device on the route that you've taken in because they know you've got to come out eventually and go back to your base. So there's that form of engagement and there's actual gunfire and small weapons, sometimes large caliber weapons, rockets, RPGs as we call them. So it just varies on what they think they could get away with at the time and depending on our size and how armored we were if we had tanks or just soft humvees. It just kind of depends, really. I think there's a perception among sort of the regular people who watch the news and understand that places like Iraq are dangerous and very difficult, that every single person that a military member comes in contact with is the enemy. I don't think that that's your experience, is it? Definitely not. Actually, it was quite the opposite. Very rarely did you find what you would call the enemy. We here in America sort of use a misnomer, Taliban, you know, we like to use that word a lot. And that's actually a misnomer in Afghanistan, especially. Taliban, everyone's Taliban. Anyone that's over the age of probably 45, you can consider Taliban. And to them, that doesn't mean an insurgent, if you will. To them it means a way of life, you know, a religious-based way of life. They prefer it that way. They don't want technology, they don't want Coca-Cola, they don't want, you know, different kinds of cars. They just want to live this nomadic lifestyle in the most simplest ways. And they like to rule it with a religious law. And to me that's fine. That's how they want to live, more power to them, let them live that way. So a lot of times, especially Americans through news, social media, you know, talking amongst their friends, they come under the impression that everyone in Iraq, everyone in Afghanistan, anyone in Syria, they're all insurgents, if you will, and they're all Taliban, they're all bad. And that's not simply the case. Some are dishonest people trying to make a decent living and be good people. Now you mentioned in this definition of Taliban that would be more appropriate for the civilians that you met in Iraq as being a religious-based type of experience. Does that religious orientation include violence? Because that's another misconception that everybody who uses the Quran as a holy book is dedicated to violence as a way to put forth a political or a religious agenda. Was that your experience? No. No. I mean, I'm sure they're there. I'm sure you have extremists in any religion, as we know. But that wasn't always the case. There were incidences where they used their religion as a means to push their extremist message. But that's not what the majority of the people that I personally came into contact with. You know, most of them are devout Muslims. You know, it doesn't matter where they're standing. They know where West is. I mean, they know to pray and they do it. It's no different than a Catholic going to church on Easter or for evening mass on Christmas Eve. Well, there is a difference, though, because apart from the theological differences, I think the reality is most Catholics who go to church on Christmas and Easter only go to church on Christmas and Easter. Most of them do, yes. I claim being a holiday Catholic myself. So for the folks that you met in Iraq, it really was a five times a day. Get on your knees when it's time to do so. And the whole town stops for prayer time. And you know, Fallujah was often called the city of Mosque, and that is no joke. There are mosques everywhere. And five times a day, you will hear the prayer over the loudspeaker. You will hear the bells. And everyone either stops what they're doing and starts praying, or they go inside their house and they do it privately with their family, which kind of gave us a break during the day because, you know, they would disperse out of the common areas and made our lives a little bit easier for that time during the day. So you wouldn't use prayer time as a time to kick the door in and storm somebody's house. No. It was absolutely necessary, and we were taking small arms fire, then of course, yes. But we respected them, and they respected us in that manner. They knew it was prayer time. We knew their prayer schedules, and for the most part, we would leave them alone. Because that's another perception, I think, that people have that's incorrect, that the military folks who are there to do protection work really kind of step on the cultural practices of the areas in which they're stationed. And from what I'm hearing you say, that's just not true either. No. Before we would deploy, we would always get this a pre-deployment block of training. And the first deployment, you kind of want to sit there and absorb it, but come deployment seven, you're just kind of like, okay, I've been through this before. They do teach us a lot, especially about respecting the traditions and understanding that it's not a joke to them. A lot of times we would go on these dismounted patrols to these remote, obscured, little tent cities. And you would have an imam in charge of the city or a village elder. And we were always taught, you know, before you go into this city, as they call it, I would just call it, tents, you would have to either speak with the imam or the village elder and you would need their permission. If you didn't get it, they were not going to help you at all. That was extremely rude and disrespectful to them to have, you know, Americans, especially armed Americans just all of a sudden walking through their little living areas. They did not like that. So we would always make sure that, you know, we kind of waited until the elders would come out and then they would speak to us and we would use our interpreters and say, you know, we're not here to harass you. We're not here to stop if you are growing opium for, you know, your own religious uses or even if you're selling it, we're not here to stop you. We just want to make sure that, you know, you're not, you don't have explosive devices. You don't have weapons that can be used against us. You know, and we would try to build these relations with them. And for the most part, it was a very successful way of operating. You know, we would go into these little, little towns and we would wait for the elder and we'd ask him. And nine out of 10 times it was, yeah, come on in. We have nothing to hide, you know, and every tent you walked into, you could always see that, that strong religious bond because no matter how poor they are, whether they're living in a tent like a Bedouin or whether they're, they have a mud hut that they've constructed. And you have, you know, 50, 60 people living in there. There's always that Quran and it's always displayed and it's like the centerpiece of the family. And I know, speaking with you before, you know, I've told you that most people are very poor and they can't afford anything, but they will spend money on nice silk or cloth to wrap their Quran and place it out and have it on display. And so this whole, oh, if you're Muslim, if you're, if you live in that area, you're an extremist and that's just simply not the case. Okay. That's good to know. Now for the, your fellow Marines and other military branches that you served with, I don't think they make a distinction based on religion for whom they station in various places. So did the, say, Muslim Marines and the Christian Marines or the different religions, did they have an easier or harder time with getting to know some of the local people? Yes, unfortunately, you always have people that don't like other people, regardless of the reason why. Unfortunately, in those countries, religion plays a big aspect on every part of your daily life. Like I'm Catholic, I was pretty much accepted, no matter what. Maybe it was my persona when I was out there, it was my demeanor. I don't really know. Maybe it just didn't want to refuse me of anything. But pretty much when I went into a place and I spoke with somebody, they were open and friendly. Some of my other friends, you know, my Marines of other religions were not welcome, especially my fellow Marines that were Jewish. They had a very hard time attempting to build relations with, you know, Muslims, especially not so much the older Muslims, but the younger generation of Muslims that have internet and they can see the world and they can speak with others. They were rough and they didn't really want to accept them. Hold that thought, because we need to take a break and go to some of the excellent programming that's available here on Think Tech Hawaii. So we're going to do that and then we'll be right back. I'm Cheryl Crozier Garcia and this is Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii. Back in the morning. You want to talk about some socially sensitive issues relevant to women? Listen to these guys. Well, I think it's important in Judaism that we don't take the Bible literally. We take it seriously. OK. I agree. And really the key to understanding Christianity is compassion. If you're compassionate towards other people, you are living a Christian life and that relates also to dealing with women and men and women issues as well. Are women and men equal? They're equal. Who's better? Who's better? Depends on what. Are you looking to get shrunk? Join us on Shrink Rap Hawaii. My name is Stephen Phillip Katz. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I see couples, individuals, families. Because you know why? Because we all have problems. And if you're curious about shrinks and what they talk about, come look at my show, Shrink Rap Hawaii. And maybe you'll find your shrink. Welcome back to Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii. Please call in with your questions or comments. The phone number is area code 415-871-2474 or tweet at thinktechhi. I'm Cheryl Crozier-Garcia. And once again, we're here with Andy Yustizewski, a retired Marine who's here to tell us about his experiences with native Iraqis and Afghans. Welcome back, Andy. Now before the break, you were talking about how some of the local people, particularly in Iraq, had a hard time with your fellow military members who were Jewish. How did they know if a particular person was Jewish or Christian or Muslim? That's actually a good question. Honestly, I really don't know. I don't know if it was perhaps their look or they just were that innate that they couldn't sense it. I know a few of my fellow service members would wear a religious medallion, perhaps somebody saw it when they bent over or something. But other than that, I honestly could not give you an answer to that. But it became clear to you that people did indeed could identify people of different religions. Oh yeah, they could almost instantly tell. Now you mentioned that you're Catholic, but you told a story that I found particularly amusing about some of the men that you met who were fathers of many, many daughters. Tell us that story. I was in Iraq. I was working with the Civil Military Operations Center. What they do is, unfortunately, there's always collateral damage in any conflict. So let's say Marines were out on patrol and they started receiving small arms fire and they fired back on the enemy. And let's say unfortunately somebody's house or their car or even a farm animal was struck with a bullet and killed or their property was damaged. They could come to this Civil Military Operations Center and make a claim before a military judge and hopefully receive some kind of monetary, payment for it. So our job was to provide the security for this complex. And every day we would have to go out and we would call work in the crowd and we would kind of corral them and kind of let them get their anger out and frustration before they went in and saw the judge and tried to argue their issue. And we would probably on average daily push through about 100 people when the judge was there. And nine out of 10 times they would get their money because it was rather small amounts of money for the damage. Well one day this elderly gentleman comes up right as we were closing the gates for the people to get in and the judges get ready to leave and he's carrying this really long, heavy-looking pipe and he's telling us, well he's telling the interpreter what happened. I'm standing there listening because I was the most senior person out there at the time and I said, okay, well you know, so what's the story? And the interpreter tells me, well this guy's water pipe that he feeds all those goats and camels and everything with was damaged by Marines. And I was like, okay, how do you know it was a Marines? And he tipped the pipe and all the 556 rounds that we shoot, the NATO rounds fell out of the pipe because they got caught in there. I'm like, okay, so obviously it was us. So I run in, I try to catch the judge before he leaves on the convoy and I tell the judge, okay, you know, I got this one last guy, he's got a valid claim. I saw it, I can vouch for him, you know, it happened. Judge says, okay, sentiment. So I run out there, I tell the guy, say, hey, you can go in and see the judge. And as he's coming in, he's trying to kiss me. He's so happy. He's like, ah, you did me this great favor. And I said, okay, just kind of get in there. I want to get my day over with. I want to get off, you know, guard shift. So he goes in, maybe spends 10, 50 minutes with the judge, comes out, has his money in his hand. He's all happy, gets to go now and purchase a new pipe. I thought that was going to be the end of it. Well, like two days later, I'm standing there. It's around closing time again. I see some people coming over the horizon. I'm thinking, oh, who are these people? As they get closer, I start noticing, I'm like, that's the old guy with the pipe. He, there he comes. I'm looking and he's with a whole bunch of girls and I'm like, oh, what's going on here? So I'm waiting at the gate for him. I'm like, okay, he made a claim and I was going to try to get more money. That was my initial thought. He's going to try to get more money out of us. Well, he comes up and he starts talking to my interpreter and my interpreter, for about 15 minutes they're talking. They're going back and forth. Here I am. I don't speak any of this language. I'm going, okay, what's he saying? What's he saying? My interpreter's laughing. I'm like, well, it's so funny, he said. He wants you to pick anyone or two of his daughters, marry them and take them back with you to America. So here I was, shocked. I'm standing there like, thanks. I don't really know what to say to him. Thanks, but no thanks kind of deal. It's like, I hope I could help, but there's really nothing I could do with this. But he was persistent. He wanted me to marry one of his kids and bring them back here to the States. What is it about life in Iraq, in that particular situation, that would make a father think that his daughter would be better off, married to someone that doesn't speak their language, isn't of their religion, couldn't have any less in common. What is that would compel a father to say, my daughter is better off with this person who is so completely different than she would be here at home? Well, I think a lot of it had to do with the regime that Saddam had over that country. I mean, it was a place that I would not have wanted to live. There was zero tolerance for anything. I mean, his laws were almost barbaric. Some of the places we went into still haunt me to this day. I mean, we found torture chambers as almost medieval in nature. And you can only imagine what took place in these rooms. And these were underneath the houses of his elected officials and appointed people. Wow. Yeah, so if the people that were in charge were willing to do stuff like that, I mean, imagine, I know if I was a father over there and if I had a chance to get my daughters away, I would take every chance that I could to get them out of that, because that's not a place I would have wanted to have lived. Now, are living conditions similar to what we have in the United States? Oh, definitely. How different are they? Well, your bigger cities in Iraq and Afghanistan such as like Kabul, I mean, there's skyscrapers, there's paved streets, there's a very good infrastructure, but you start moving outward of those areas and it is literally stepping back in time. I was on roads that were built by the Roman army when I was in Afghanistan. I walked into a tower, a watch tower that was built by Alexander the Great's army. I mean, it is, you're literally stepping back in the time. We met a man on patrol one time way up in the mountains out in the middle of nowhere in Afghanistan. He was walking with his goats and when he saw us, he started speaking in Russian because last time he saw somebody of our complexion was in the early 80s when the Russians were there. So he tries talking to us in Russian and I'm like, no, I'm American. He was like, okay, why are you here? I didn't even know Americans were here. And then he tried telling us his family lineage all the way back to Moses almost. Wow. Yeah, so we just kind of sat there and shook our heads like, okay, thank you. Yeah, okay, thanks. But yeah, the further you get out, the further back in time you go almost. So it's completely different from America. So no modern conveniences, the things we take for granted, running water, sanitation and sewage, electricity, all that stuff they don't have. Yeah, the larger cities do. They have some form, but the power is sporadic at times. There is internet in the cities. But yeah, once you get out, there's cell phones, they have no idea what that is. Vehicles, no idea. Never used them, could care less. So yeah, the further out you go, the less of that convenience you have. Yeah, so in that regard, it sounds like that the folks who, particularly those who may have had an opportunity to see, because they speak enough of the local languages as well as English to work as interpreters, that they would see how we in the US live based on the bases and the other places that are set up for our military, and they want a part of that, because it's so different and maybe better than what they've experienced. Well, I know when we first got, especially into Iraq, we didn't really have interpreters. So a lot of the locals who were highly educated, I mean, these were doctors, lawyers, they would actually volunteer their services to come and be interpreters for us. And now granted, they weren't allowed onto where we lived, but they were allowed access to certain areas, perhaps to get a debriefing or something like that, because they were out on patrol with us, they were a part of our unit, if you will. So, and we had to protect them. Here were people, good, honest people, doctors, lawyers, and they were just trying to help us. So they did get to see a little bit of the American way of life, and I think the ones that did see it really liked the little taste that they got of it. Everybody likes Coca-Cola. That's true, and believe it or not, it is everywhere in Iraq and Afghanistan. They sell it all over the place. I've seen Coke containers, bottles and cans, written in Arabic. So, yeah. It's everywhere, everywhere. Coca-Cola's all around the world, and they know it, and they understand what it is. Now, I want you to tell a story, we've only got two minutes left, but this story I think is something that every single person that tries to have an opinion about what we're doing in the Middle East needs to hear. You had the opportunity to provide security for one of the elections, particularly providing assistance to women who were voting for the first time. Can you tell us that experience and what happened? Yeah, so we were in Iraq, and they were doing the referendum phase after we had toppled the regime, and they started to elect officials, in a democratic way, and they did the first election, I believe, was only men, and then a year and a half, maybe two years later, they did another election, and they allowed women for the first time in history to have a voice. And this was Monumentus for us. Well, I was providing security for the position where they were doing the elections, and the first woman voter in history came in, she cast her vote, and she left. Unfortunately, once she left the compound, we couldn't provide security. Next day, we went out on a dismounted patrol and we found her beheaded. The extremists had gotten word of it, and they killed her over the fact, because she was a woman and she wasn't allowed. And how dare she? Yeah, exactly. How dare she go against what the men wanted and had to have a voice in that country. Wow. You know, that story, in and of itself, if lots and lots of people in the U.S. knew about it, I think would give us all some real insights into why it's important that we continue to support folks who are interested in a democratic process. And for those of us that have the right to vote, just for citizenship, to really support that and continue to use that opportunity that we have, because it's hard come by in every country. Andy, we need to go, and I'm so sorry because we could sit here and talk all day, but thank you all for joining us on Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm Cheryl Crozier-Garcia, and we will see you again on April 11th. Take care. Bye-bye.