 Welcome back. It is still the run-up. Taking it straight to where we left off just before the break, the Independent National Electrical Commission, INEC, has promised to roll out measures to tackle vote buying at the polling unit on Election Day 2023. Even as it vowed that violators of laws and campaign finances would be dealt with frontally, INEC identified four areas of concern to Nigerians. As far as the 2023 general elections was concerned, identified such areas as security, campaign finance, technology, the permanent voters' cards, as well as the assurances that their votes would count ultimately on Election Day. INEC, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC, the Nigerian Police Force, the Interparty Advisory Council and the Inspector General of Police have identified the need to tackle vote buying in order to overcome a major obstacle to free, fair and credible elections in Nigeria. Just recently, a foremost legal luminary, a fair Baba Lola, has said that Nigeria's forthcoming presidential elections later for February 25th will be won by the highest spender and not the best candidate among the contenders. I want to say that there's been a lot of misunderstanding of what he is supposed to mean by that if I'm supposed to get into his head. But then these are the questions that will be answered today on this segment of the run-up. And of course, we still have Mr. Deji with us. Do you see a situation where vote buying, as it is known in Nigeria, can totally be eradicated? Well, vote buying, as it is in Nigeria, can be eradicated because there was no much incidence of vote buying before. So if we have lived without it before, we can also live without it again. But that won't be anytime soon because the people that are to stem the tide of vote buying are the main beneficiaries of it. So that makes it quite very difficult for you to stop the trend. And with the rising rate of poverty, with the high poverty rate, high unemployment rate, it will be very difficult for vote buying to stop because money is an essential commodity. Everybody needs one form of cash or the other to survive, to fulfill their essential utilities in life. And because money is so important, much like an oxidant in noses use, and we have a situation whereby we have a society whereby the rich bank of the cash we have is flowing among the political circle. In that situation, it will be difficult to stop vote buying because it's like telling somebody to stop the source of his own power, the source of his own work. And that's why right now we have a lot of politicians. People are not joining politics for the sake of passion. They are joining it because the primary place on politics is very high. So that's why we have a lot of political investors. You see people selling their houses. You see people going to a bank to borrow money because they want to win the election at all costs because they know immediately they get there they're going to cash out. But I think one of the ways that we can call vote buying is enlightenment and the personal decision on the part of the electorate. There's a Yuba adage that says sometimes you may need to stay hungry today so that you don't stay hungry tomorrow. So if the Nigerian electorate are enlightening that you won't use me as your source of investment because if you get there you are definitely going to see times 100 or times 200 or even in millions of the money that you are spending. By the way, why should Nigerian electorate receive money to vote? Maybe ISD give you 3,000. They give you 5,000. At the end of the day, if you multiply, if you divide 5,000 error by four years, you realize that maybe the calculation may be, maybe I wouldn't be surprised if it's 10 error or so. So imagine you selling your, that's right, selling your right to apply good roads, your right to electricity, your right to good education for your children just because of the the sake of a little sum of money. So I think stopping vote buying will start from the decisiveness of the Nigerian electorate because if we look up to the political class who controls the security agencies in a democratic system, it should be difficult for vote buying to stop. Most especially our politicians on the sees that a system works that definitely going to continue the trend. Vote buying became alarming at the equity election that Oshaad former governor, Fajr-Mein, the next election in Oshaad governor, you could see the spread of vote buying and now it has become a kind of like negative political philosophy and my fear is that in the rural areas, people now see election day as a means of cashing out. There are some people that are already waiting now that during the election they must call it their 5000 error else did they win them. So we are imbibing a negative political culture. So I think the civil societies and maybe the coalition of small political parties that are not as rich as the the major political parties has to go all out to educate the people, to enlighten the people, to make them see reasons why they shouldn't sell their battle but I don't think much has been done in that regard and I think the strength of the theory, I support the position of the legal luminary that money is going to play a major role. For example I was watching a political campaign sometime ago in the east and it went viral. The politician when he was to say that he said we will give them money and they vote for us and I felt I felt so bad that how can you limit when you give them an election, not based on manifesto, not based on policy and you could limit the interest of the people that you just give them money. So I think it has to start from the people that say when they begin to shame money, then the politicians will devise another strategy. I've said it before that it's like a student, politicians are like students. If you don't take your student with some a bit of an eye office and some discipline, no student wants to read, they just want the grade. So no politician really wants to perform, so long as they can cut corners. So I believe that if the Nigerian electorate begin to reason like the electorate in other climes of the world that money does not play a major role, your integrity, your experience, your capacity should come before money, then the politicians will have to change strategy. But right now with the bad economy and I think some of this economic situation is a strategy for the politicians because when you make the people angry towards the election, they would have no choice than to just, you know, when people are angry, just give them rice and gari and granator and maybe 30,000. To people like you, that means nothing, maybe even give people more than that every day. But the reality is with the situation in Nigeria, that means a lot to some families. That's like a go to some families. And when you are poor, your defense is weak, people can easily direct you that go this way. It's not possible for somebody to call me now and say take 10,000 dollars, go this way. You question the person because you are educated, you have some cash in your pocket, you are well exposed. But that is not the case for the Nigerian electorate. So we see that vote buying begins to play a major role because the politicians have looked at what the people really need and they are not using it, they are not playing on their vulnerability which I think is sad. So it's the people that will rise up in defense of themselves. Not looking at the politicians and the security agencies because these are the major beneficiaries of vote buying itself. Okay. You said this campaign, this evangelism so to speak should be taken to everybody, education of the electorate and all that. But I don't know if you've ever heard the saying that Nabi Tiffay Tiff, Naboru Asin, that is pure stealing, but you're just giving it a new name. Now what I'm saying this is that some people see some actions of politicians as not actions that are buying their vote. So we need to define what we really mean when we say vote buying. Is it the money that you give? Because someone on the show the other time said that it's only money that is given on the day of election that can be called vote buying. But is that really vote buying? Because if I'm talking to an aged woman back home in the village and I'm telling her the dangers of vote buying, I should be able to list some of the things that constitute vote buying. So if we are defining vote buying, what would it be so that people that are going out to tell the people will know the kind of things to say to the people that need to hear it? For me, I think vote buying is if you offer anything of any kind, whether financial or material, in order to convince people in a particular direction, then that is vote buying. If you offer somebody rice, that is not financial, but that is material, that is vote buying. So if you try to convince people in a particular way, not by mere conversion, but by your policies, conversing is allowed. I can walk up to you and convince you, please vote for my candidate, we will do this, this is how we are going to do it. That's fine, it's allowed, it's legal. But once I begin to offer you or I begin to monetize you or I begin to blackmail you, which some government does to the civil servant. We've seen a situation in some states, I don't want to mention that they give them a tax that for you to retain your job in this civil service, go and win your polling, go and win your award. And you see on the election day that the civil servant will be using their own personal money to buy drinks for people, will not be using that to convince people that please, don't let me lose my job. And because people in the area lose them, they tend to vote out of pity because their respective workplace has blackmailed them that if you don't win your constituency, you will lose your job. Some even go as far as telling them that bring the result of your polling unit. And I think that is vote buying. That is sad. And this happens in different states. I don't want to be mentioning it, but I'm sure some of them are watching me now and they know themselves, they know what I'm saying. So vote buying comes in different ways. If you try to cajose on base on their need, if you are unemployed now and I come to you and I begin to come back to you that don't worry, if you vote for us, if we enter, I will help you find job in the local government. That's vote buying. Because I'm using your vulnerability to influence your decision. You are not voting out of conviction. You are voting based on what you want to get, based on what you want to benefit, based on the picture of benefit that I've placed before you. So we have vote buying that is pre-election. We have vote buying that is during election and we have post-election vote buying that would have taken place on the election date itself. So this different form of vote buying I think should be stopped. If people are allowed to make their decision based on without any influence, you can just converse, okay, this is the candidate A comes to you. This is my program. Candidate B comes to you. This is the candidate C. You can easily sit down and look at it. Look at the political party, the political ideology, the past experience, the capacity of the candidate and make an informed decision without nothing influencing you. So if something is influencing you that is either financial or material, then that is vote buying to me. Okay. There's a conversation around, Aina came out, I think it was on Monday and said that young and underaged voters are going to be arrested and even their parents as well. It has raised a lot of dust, you know, in the mainstream media and even on social media. And also that is another level to irregularities during elections. Do you think that that's idea of arresting underaged children who are votes, you know, who come out on election days to vote, do you think that works? What do you make of that decision? Well, I'm tired of hearing that we will, we will. I think what I want to hear is we have, that's what I want to hear because underage voting particularly in the North has been very prominent for years. So and all the years we have, we know, we are tired of that. We don't believe in that anymore. We want to see we have arrested so so so so so so I caught facing charges. Now, while I was doing my NYC over a decade ago in panel to be precise, and there was this voter registration going on then a young boy walked up to me and my assistant he wants to register. And I look at the age of the voter. This guy is not up to 18. And I'm asking, I think, what Chicago should be age, I forgot it's a long time ago, I think, Sumaka, Sumambaba, then Chicago, you know, the guy said 18. So I was very annoyed. Then I had to spank him or he didn't say the truth. I gave him the second one. By the time he told me on lantern him, then he confessed 15, 15, 15. And I'm like, come on, why would you come and register when you know you're not up to 18? Then the guy ran away. But that was at the risk of my own life at that point in time, because I realized that the so some of these registrants are not well oriented. They see it as their right, whether they are of age or not. So their political leaders, religious leaders, traditional leaders have not educated them. So if you fail to register them, and you are not part of that community, you are at your own risk because they were saying it as you are denying them part of their legitimate right, not knowing that they are not up to age. So I think vote dying is prevalent from the experience that I had in the north at that point in time, a large number of people involved over them. There's another way that they define whether you are eligible to vote or not, which is against the provision of the Constitution. They marry early. Now, in fairness to them, they can choose to do what they want. That is their so-called culture in court. I'm not against it. But if an underage girl marries and she has a child, they automatically assume that that girl is eligible to vote. So if a 13-year-old girl is carrying a baby, they believe that, oh, this is her last wife and automatically she has a child. So she's old enough to vote. So there's been less education where this underage registration is very prevalent. There's been less education of the populace to make them understand that it is by age. It is not by marriage. It is natural best right until you reach a certain age. And the security agencies and the political class would be reluctant to kind of like arrest and prosecute people because once it goes into the community, they would target us which aren't, they would target you as you trying to reduce their voting population. And that has electoral consequence for whichever party is in power. For instance, if the APC under the administration of President Muhammad Ibu Ali tried to take such a step. Now, across the notice, the word that underage registration is prevalent, what we go to the most traditional rule is that Muhammad Ibu Ali is trying to reduce their voting population. And that's a serious electoral consequence for the APC. So one government even wants to take action when they think of the electoral consequence. And every government wants to win the electoral consequence first, most especially when it's at the eve of the election. So I think the words that were said is just to kind of like put Nigerian masses on the educated ones that were doing something. But to me, from my observation over the years as a political scientist, I mean how those underage registration comes by and the consequence of removing them from the list, I think nothing will be done sincerely. But now the final question now before we wrap up, what will, where will we start from? Because there's only so much Ainek can do. And national orientation agency is more like dead because we don't hear them anymore. If they are performing and they're doing a lot of things, I don't think I have heard them so much in very sensitive issues. So, but the country is ours, it's not theirs, it's ours, everybody's. Where do we start from? To educate people, to know what is right and what is wrong, at least in the few days that we have to the general election and even beyond. How do we get it right? Where do we go to? I think one of the ways to get each right is because it is a democracy and it is an all commerce affairs. So long as you are a team, whether you are educated or not, whether you are a reflux, no sense, you are eligible to vote. So, because of that, we see that at the lower level of the population, the poor, there is this orientation. And if people can do this massive orientation at the grassroots for people to understand, for example, if a tout is able to know that the failures of government, the lack of education contributes to what's turned in or into a tout, definitely the tout will know that the politician that is supporting to win the election is even his greatest enemy. Because if the economy has been fair, if there has been jobs, if the education is solid and made a national policy, if government in Nigeria is working at this is another clan, most likely he will not have become a tout. So you find a situation that because of lack of orientation, you see a tout working to empower his enemy that contributed to making him a tout. So we have a situation whereby things are going from bad to us. I think a lot has to be done as figure's orientation of the masses. Because you see some of these masses supporting, willing to die for people that have kept them in chains, economic chain, financial chain, political chain, and they are still supporting them. Why? Because it's from their religion or religion. All these things have to change. Then we need to have leaders that are truly leaders. If you are a religious leader, if you mount the pulpit, what are you saying to the people? So we have to look at the sources of learning apart from the school. People listening more to their religious leaders every year than the listening to the president. So we have to look at the source of education, the family, the church, the mocks, the society, the traditional rulers. What are they saying? What are they recommending? So when that is in place, maybe a new orientation that will give birth to a new society will now evolve. So it starts with the grassroots. And I think that maybe if civil societies or NGOs that are rich can also come into the picture to say if they can provide one or two amenities and maybe orientate the people that this thing that we've done, it is government that is supposed to do that. That is if government will not say they are trying to pay them back. I think people will now begin to see that power belongs to them. I think the orientation on the part of the masses is very, very important. Orientation is very important. And this is where we, I wish this conversation didn't have to end Jack because it was very eye-opening. But thank you so much Dr. Deji Omwashala for joining us today on the run-up. It was really nice having you. It is still the run-up. We're going to go on a quick break.