 Welcome once again. President Mahmudubwari has stated that he would like or rather he would consider granting a state pardon to Ken Saruwa and eight other Oguni leaders executed by the Sania Bacha led military administration on the 10th of November in 1995. After the being accused of murdering four Oguni chiefs at a pro-government meeting, Saruwa and the others were sentenced to death by hanging by a special military tribunal. However, several Nigerians believed Saruwa and the others were framed for the murder because of their very impactful but non-violent campaign against oil extraction and the continuous degradation of the Oguni land by the government-backed multinational oil companies, especially Royal Dutch Shell. Joining us to discuss this is Celestine Nakbubwari, the national coordinator Oguni Solidarity Forum. Nigeria, good evening. Thanks for joining us, Mr. Nakbubwari. Thank you for having me, good evening Nigerians. Great to see you. So I want you to first of all share your thoughts on the discussion about a state pardon. I've seen a response by the Ken Saruwa Foundation that I'll share right after your response now. But let's hear from you first. What are your thoughts? Do you think this is perfect timing, better late than never, or very unimportant? Well, incidentally, I was at the presidential bill on Friday. I was among the Oguni leadership that met with the president. I was there when he made the statement. But the Oguni people and the civil society groups in Nigeria are not pleased with the word pardon because you grant pardon to one who committed an offence. We all know that Ken Saruwa did not commit that offence and the Oguni people and civil society have wished that Mr. President apologised to the Oguni people on behalf of the Nigerian government and exonerate Ken Saruwa and those that died with him because they did not commit that crime. That crime, we are not happy with the word pardon. And if you go through Oguni from that Friday to today, everybody has been almost mad on the street, you know, rejecting the word pardon. We know out there Ken is so hard. In fact, you would have seen a statement from the International Congress, I&C, they released a statement before the Ken Saruwa Foundation. So when the Nigerian government returned to Siboru in 1999, there were two issues plaguing Nigeria. The June 12th and the Oguni issue. June 12th have been vertically settled. Government apologised to the people of the family and even given so many awards and honours. We want the Oguni because we did not commit any offence. Nicely put, you spoke about the response from the Ken Saruwa Foundation. I hope we can put that on screen to show exactly what they are saying. They say exoneration not pardon for Ken Saruwa. Yesterday you have it. It says the Board of Directors for the Ken Saruwa Foundation has received and read the statement from Mr. Adishinal. It says, I'm just going to skip a few paragraphs to say Ken Saruwa and the other Oguni were not criminals. They were innocent activists and justly murdered for fighting for just cause on behalf of the oppressed community. The path to troop peace in the region begins with justice. The cleaning up of the environment which the campaign and died for is first a good step. I'll stop there. Of course there you have it on your screen. Let's go further now. Before we might come back to the exoneration or pardon discussion. But what would you say, and if you were to speak on behalf of the Oguni people, which would you say is more important? An exoneration, a pardon or that the government actually does the things that led to the agitation of the Oguni people in the first place? Cleaning up of Oguni land, cleaning up their farms and giving them of course better benefits for the natural resource that has been sourced from their land for decades. Which would you say is more important? Well in this case, Oguni people were successful fishermen and farmers. We never asked the government and the other companies to come and pollute our land. They owe us a lot. They destroy our means of livelihood and destroy everything. We shouldn't beg them to come and clear up their mess. They are the people who owe enough. And so it's not a year, not a year. They did everything. They are the goat. They are the knife. They polluted the land. They destroyed our livelihood. They devastated the environment. They key our leadership. So all the blames are on the head of the government. So what about the way they want to go about filtering and cleaning up their own mess in their own business? We are the victim here. So why I'm asking this is because like you mentioned the June 12th and of course the conferment of the GCFR to MK Wabiola in 2018. That was somehow and some people interpreted that as somehow some way to appease the Southwest. Same way they've also said that making from President Olisha Goh Basonjo President in 1999 was to appease the Southwest as it is described in some quarters. But you said the government has the yam and the knife. But would you say that the cause that you cancer we want the other eight Oguni leaders were fighting for? So that should be what the government should be focusing on instead of simply talking about a pardon. Shouldn't you know that be what the cancer foundation and yourself the Oguni solidarity forum be telling the Nigerian government? Well as part of the process of healing our homes. The issue of a generation is very important. Even if it was not among the demands but I think it's a far way of ways you know the other demands in the Oguni Bureau of Rights as far as I'm concerned. Because you cannot compare anything to life. Not a life such as that of cancer we were. Over 2000 persons were murdered in Koblon in Oguni. You're only talking about the Oguni night that we're hung. Over 2000 people were innocently murdered by poor Kuntuma and their group. And they are alive. Kuntuma is the late but Komu. The other Musa Komu that was the then governor, the minister is there. How many of them that collaborated to kill Oguni people? They are there. So I think they should do all the issue of political marginalization. Up to now, no Oguni have been governor. No Oguni have been deputy governor. No Oguni have been speaker. No Oguni have been chief judge. It's part of the fact that Oguni is a majority in reverse state. Even if we are minority in Nigeria. These are some of the issues that Ken was talking about including cleaning up of the environment and cultural issues that you don't send Oguni people to the university to go and study outside Yoruba or Igbo. When we have our distinct cultural language. So these are some of the things that we will be talking about. Well, would you also say that these conversations and the thoughts of a pardon or exoneration is really only just opening up wounds that we are trying to heal over time? And do you expect that Oguni people would once again bring back these conversations and make these demands louder? Of course it's a continual struggle. We are on a journey. We are on a journey and that's why we are asking that first and foremost you exonerate this man. He's innocent man. In fact, a memorial at work that was brought in from the UK in 2015, the name of Ken was seized by the custom. Today it sees with the custom because the current aid of custom, the current custom boss was the only military officer at Amid Ali. But the only military officer on that people, not a sentence, Ken sir, were to death. So he didn't want to see anything about Ken. The bitterness of 1999 against Oguni is still very high. And the only way you can begin to address these issues is to gradually move one after the other. And November 10 is not far from today. We are expecting that the government will exonerate Ken and Oguni and apologize to the Oguni people and we take it up from there. And what happens if none of that takes place? If none of that takes place, you would have heard that Mr. President said that he has given a license to MPDC or NMPC. I can assure you that one bed will not fly into Oguni in the name of oil if those things are not taken care of. Can you repeat that? What do you mean by that? I read the statement from the president. Because if you like me, you will like my dog. You cannot like my oil, I hate me. You said that you have given a license for people to go and explore oil in Oguni. But you don't want to talk about the issues that paint us. I mean, you can't like me if you like me like my dog. Not bad, we fly into Oguni land until they begin to address these issues that concern us. We are Nigerians too. Do you also have the same feelings towards state governments in the Niger Delta? And the reason I'm asking that is, yes, I understand the Nigerian government's failures here and there. But I think you might also notice that there's still some level of failure on the state level, on the local government level. I agree completely with you that at the state, I've cheated a majority of Oguni people. There's no doubt about that, but it wasn't in reverse state that he can serve. It was the federal government, which we represent today. Government is a continuum. You take the liability and also take the assets. So why do you apologize to the Ebola family for a crime you did not commit? You should also apologize to the Oguni people for also a crime you did not commit. Do you think that the Niger Delta representatives, Pandev, do you think that the Oguni representatives also are doing enough lobbying to ensure that these things happen? Because someone might argue that the Southwest has its lobbyists in check and they've done well enough to ensure that the Ebola family got what it eventually got for June 12. So do you think that the Ogunis have proper representatives to speak on their behalf? Well, this afternoon I addressed Pandev. Pandev had a general assembly today and I addressed Pandev and I presented this matter. And I hope it will be part of the final statement that will come out. I also want to inform you that Ken Sarawuba's son, the late Ken, Jr., accepted an appointment to work with Abbas and Jonathan as senior special assistant just to achieve this same aim. So what is more lobbying than accepting an appointment as the son of Ken? Ensuring that the government that he worked for, exonerated his father, he was so disappointed and it may be part of the thing that led to his early death. So I think the earlier government begins to address this issue, the better for everybody. Can you shed more light on what the family of Ken Sarawuba currently is like? Where are they? Are they still in the Niger Delta? Do these things still of course hurt them when we have these discussions? Ken was not a local champion. Ken was an international personality and so also as a family. One of the younger brother was the director of military intelligence during the Jonathan administration. We have Dr. Omo and a scientist based in Canada sometime here. So he came familiar with the children, all of them, even when he was alive. So he had not been a local champion. He only came home to help his people. And if coming home to help your people have become a client, then I don't know who else has become a client. The family are in pains. We are also all in pains. Because this was a jolly good fellow that committed no offense. He had to ask that these young people get a better deal and get a chunk of what they produced to service Nigeria. Look at what oil money has done in a budget of a short time. A budget that does not have one oil wealth. A budget that does not suffer one negative consequence of our production. 99% of the oil wealth in Niger Delta belongs to people who have never visited Niger Delta before. Who don't know the pains will go through and they will stay there and say, kill him. If you don't kill him, they will push you out from the Niger Delta. That teacher of people will beat a lesson on how not to stop us. That means that kind of a thing. On November 10, 1995, the Nigerian government chose between oil and blood. And I mean, you cannot equate oil with blood. And that's what they did. And that's why they have to apologize and exonerate those who were innocently murdered because of oil. Like you said, according to you, if this isn't done, no bird would fly. Across Oguni land, from the 10th of November. I also got to, you know, of course, reading back at some of the things concerning this discussion today. I watched some of the testimony from the Oputa panel and got to, of course, learn more about the 10th, the 9th actually of November when the execution notice was served. And the 10th morning of November 1995. Really, really sad story. So that's it. I enjoy speaking with you, looking forward to talking with you again, maybe on the 10th or after the 10th of November. Have a great evening and thanks for joining us. Thank you very much. Nice talking to you. Thank you for staying with us. We'll take a short break. And when we come back, of course, we'll get to listen to Nigeria's reaction to the article written by the economist. And when we return then, I'll be giving my take. This is Nigeria. Anything can happen. A country where most of our ministry officers, police and all of them are, you know, not doing much as expected from them. So anything can happen. It's a painful one. It's a shameful thing, really, that this has happened around us. Ministry officers in Lagos, most of them are doing bus drivers, it's a shame. But that's what we find ourselves, it's possible. Most of the attacks we've been observing, in particular most of the ones that happen in the northern state, we notice there is a kind of insider, a kind of betrayer insider in some of the attacks. Like the one that happens in the military school. So some of them, by the way it's happened, you know that definitely there must be some element of betrayal. Some of the militaries are also a kind of those that are helping to support these terrorists, or maybe give them information either which way. It may not really be supplying the weapon. So people are talking based on what is going on in the country. But for me to believe that Nigeria are selling weapons, Nigeria are selling weapons, I don't believe that, I don't believe that. I feel that matter is a delicate matter. When Nigeria is up to date, and with the types of leaders that we have, and with what is going on, even the security challenges in the country, there is nothing that is not possible. Politics, and just before we go, my take. It came as a huge shock. It felt like a sting at the soul of every Nigerian, the news of the execution of the Oguni-9. From testimonies, of course from the Oputa panel and beyond, the execution order was sent at 10 p.m. on the 9th of November 1995. Between 12 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. on the 10th of November, the Oguni-9 were killed. The world was shocked, but it close to nothing. And all of this was for championing the call for a better life for the Oguni people. 26 years later, their waters are still polluted, and their farms are still damaged. In 2018, President Mohamed Abuari conferred the GCFR title on late MKO Abuyola. There have also been calls for a memorial and honour for those who lost their lives during the NSAS protests just last year. But the key issues here are, just like the reason behind the NSAS protests still being evident one year later, the Oguni people still have similar complaints 26 years after. The Nigerian government needs to do better with actually answering the pleas of its people instead of stay pardons and titles being conferred. And that's my take. Thank you for joining us on Plos Politics. Of course, I'll return the same time tomorrow. See you then. And remember, this is Plos TV Africa. Big stories live here.