 Coming up on DTSS, how's that pivot to services going for Apple, the state of battery swaps for EVs, and Google listened to us. This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, January 28th, 2022 in Los Angeles, I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. I'm a shows producer, Roger Chang. And joining us, chief technology officer at Skidmore Owings, and they, Roger, didn't put the other part. Merrill. Oh, it didn't line wrap. Roger put it in there. It didn't line wrap. It's Google Doc's fault. Fix it, Google. Rob DeMillo, how are you? Good to have you. Good. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me again. We were just talking about Arizona's pending bill to make Bitcoin legal tender with Rob on our longer version of the show, Good Day Internet. You can get that at patreon.com slash DTNS. Speaking of big thanks to our top patrons today, they include Michelle Surju, Mike McLaughlin, and Miss Music Teacher. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. IDC reports that Samsung retook the number one spot for smartphone shipments in 2021 with 20% market share globally after shipping 272 million phones during the year. Apple was in the number two spot with 235.7 million shipped phones. Xiaomi took third place with 191 million. Oppo was next with 133.5 million. And Vivo after that in the top five spot with 128.3 million. Overall company shipped 1.35 billion smartphones in 2021. That's a 5.7% increase over the previous year. But supply chain issues continue to plague the entire sector. Counterpoint research had slightly different overall numbers for the top five, but noted that this marks the first time the smartphone market has grown year over year since 2017. Microsoft and 35 US states led by the state of Utah filed amicus briefs with the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, supporting Epic Games and its appeal in its case against Apple. The states argue that the court should have applied section one of the Sherman Antitrust Act to Apple, even in the case of a unilateral contract with developers which prohibits quote every contract combination conspiracy in restraint of trade. TechCrunch found FCC documents that show Joby Aviation is seeking permission to test its pre-production prototype vertical takeoff and landing aircraft over the San Francisco Bay near tourist spots. Joby told TechCrunch it's still securing permission and has no confirmed plans just yet. What's apps one of the most popular messaging apps in the world, but you might not know it to talk to some folks in the United States. Most of its two billion users are elsewhere. So WhatsApp is beginning a marketing push in the US this weekend during the US football playoffs this Sunday. Head of WhatsApp, Will Kathcart told The Verge he also thinks the fact that WhatsApp works on iOS and Android will be appealing to people frustrated by the green bubble issues. Kathcart also said WhatsApp has no plans to support SMS or it's more secure and feature rich successor RCS. All right. Let's talk a little more about how we all want Google to change their mind. By we, I mean the entire internet, not just DTNS, but we'll take part of that W. Last week, we told you about the fact that people who had been using a version of G Suite that gave them Google services with domain names for free for more than a decade were finally being asked to pay or lose service by September of this year. It's a July deadline to make a decision, but they wouldn't actually lose service till September. And we all had different takes on whether we thought this was unfair or not, given the amount of time that people had to switch. Some people said, but they didn't give us enough warning, even if there was time. Still, we all generally agreed that since Google offers free services without domains, that maybe Google could offer a way to migrate people off the domain to the free without domain service. And that might be better. Give people the option to just lose the domain, not all of their data if they can't afford the six to $18 per user month fees. Well, Google apparently listened. The support page for G Suite Legacy Free Edition users now says it will, quote, provide an option for you to move your non-Google workspace paid content and most of your data to a no-cost option in the coming months. The support site says these options will be coming before you have to make a decision on July 1st, but will not include premium features like custom email or multi-account management. But it implies you'll have an option to keep things like your Google Play purchases. Your movies, your music, et cetera, YouTube history, all that kind of stuff. If you log into your free account right now and you're not a business, you got fewer than 10 users, you can take a survey to say I'm not a business. And if you fill out that survey, it's a one-question survey. There's two questions. The second question is, is it OK for us to use the information in the other question? If you fill out that survey, Google says it will send updates on more options for your non-business legacy account in the coming months. Now, one can assume a devil may lurk in those details, but hopefully after it gets enough surveys, Google will make those details apparent. And maybe, maybe it'll be an angel in the details. And well, as somebody who is I'm in limbo in this situation, I have a custom domain. I've been using G-Speed for this for some time now. I think I probably set this up in 2005. I mean, it's been six is when they started. So you probably did it in 2006. It was probably 2006. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, I was mildly worried about it. At the same time, it's sort of like, OK, you have until September. It's January. OK. You know, I, you know, it's not like somebody said, you're going to kicked off, you're not going to be able to read your Sarah Lane dot com email starting tomorrow. That would be a much bigger deal. But Google and I think that I think, and especially we've gotten a lot of folks writing and saying, this would affect me. And here's how I use it, you know, and a lot of folks saying, and I have a family of 10 and we're all using this. And, you know, if it was per, you know, a cost per user per month, that's really going to add up. That's not tenable. You know, it's just me. I six dollars per month wouldn't wouldn't probably make me, you know, you know, leave Google and figure something else out. I also don't know what else I would figure out that would be free at this point. But it's nice to know that Google is kind of saying, OK, OK, I see how we're screwing a lot of people over potentially. And, you know, we want to make sure that we're we're not alienating customers who will buy lots of other services from us. Did you take the survey? No. Oh, yeah. Did you take the survey? Take the survey? You should take the survey. Well, OK, I will. This is the era. This is the era of big companies blinking, by the way. Right. We say that what we really meant was, yeah, there's a lot of this. And the reason I, you know, all joking aside, the reason everybody who's affected by this should take that survey, you know, with within the next few days is is that Google is probably going to tailor what they do based on how many people say, you know, I need this, right? Because if it's if it's 12, then they can do a whole different response than if it's several thousand, but probably several thousand, if not more, right? This is probably a ham-fisted attempt from Google to do cost recovery, right? Because they're just assuming that people that have, you know, domains attached to their Gmail accounts probably have small little businesses running, you know, as opposed to vanity accounts and everything else. But it's all folks with vanity accounts are getting probably the most affected by this. And those are the loudest, right? And I think Google underestimated how how loud they would be. So so that's why they're like, if you're not a business, we'll we'll talk to you. We want to avoid the the PR splash. So yeah, there you go. Very cool. Well, earlier this month on January 7th, to be exact, we talked about the US ITC decision that Google infringed on five audio technology patents held by Sonos related to controlling a group of speakers. Google released ITC approved redesigns to bring their products into compliance and avoid import bans. One of those changes meant that users have to adjust each speaker in a group's volume individually now, not the end of the world, but annoying if you have a bunch of speakers in your house and you like to control them together. When we talked about it a few weeks ago, we said, so instead of paying Sonos a license, Google decided to remove functionality and asked if you thought that that was fair. Obviously, that that ended up giving us quite a few responses. Rob, I think if I'm not mistaken, you're in the camp of no, that does not seem fair. And if you don't use Google speakers, you shouldn't get too comfortable because Sonos may target other speaker systems as well. But let's start with Sonos versus Google and and and why you're not happy with the outcome. So well, aside from the fact that literally a week beforehand, I ripped out all the Sonos in my house and put Google speakers everywhere. And why did you do that? Because the Sonos I mean, Sonos doesn't give you so I've got me back up. I've got this long standing thing of like, I don't I repel against companies that have this siloed system that don't give me the option to expand other things. And Sonos is is one of those companies. It's even though they produce really nice equipment, you have to get their equipment, right? I can't use my Bose things with, you know, it's got to be a sonos thing. So that was annoying. I got annoyed when Sonos, you know, gurgled on the on the version one to version two version of speakers. I didn't want to go through and refresh all the speakers in my house. I didn't want to remain on the old version of the price. So there's just a number of things that had bubbled up. And it's like, you know what, I don't need this. I'll pull the sonos speakers out. I'll use Google audio cast everywhere. And I can attach those to my my regular speakers in the home. And plus it will pay attention to my voice. And I can have podcasts like DTNS like play over the speakers are too much difficulty. So all that stuff was working out really great. And then this thing happened. And I was like, Well, seriously, and it's it's it is an inconvenience, of course, to, you know, send audio to the whole home and have to like walk into the room that you want the volume to change at and go change that. But really, there's there's something else fundamentally going on here. And it has to do with obvious versus non obvious art in IP. And what I would I'd like to find out and it's really hard to find out with all the the the media going on around this is so no saying that that Google specifically stole the actual code to do speaker control and other other functionality. There's other functionality. They're not telling us, right? So did they take the actual code? Or did they take the concept? If they took the concept, I call BS, right? If they took the code sure. But that means that Google can code around it and do code in a different different fashion. And if it is the fact that Sonos is trying to claim obvious art, then the next in line would be Amazon, right? And you've already hear you already hear rumblings on the internet about the Amazon Alexa service being the next target. Right? So I mean, as somebody who I have one, two, three, four, five Sonos speakers in my in my tiny little house, you know, why not? But um, you know, and I'm I'm sort of committed to the platform at this point. But I but I I echo quite a few of your sentiments, Rob, where this isn't ideal. I just find them to be superior speakers. But I'm also using Amazon's service, you know, we'll call her a for now, through all those Sonos speakers. And if there was any issue between the two companies, sure, I could figure out another option. But that would be extremely it would suck. It would This is one of those stories that I I feel like in the broadest sense is minimally impactful just because there's not that many people who who have Google speakers, you know, over. I mean, there's a lot. But there's, you know, it's not a majority of the people that have them. And then of those people, how many people use it in the multi home, you know, enough that this causes a problem. But if you are, which you are, Rob, then that's highly annoying. So why doesn't Google just pay to license the patent? I mean, that's the other Sonos is being, you know, unusually uncooperative. You would think they'd be able to come to an agreement. Yeah, this is going to come out of it in one or two different ways, right? They're either going to do that. They're just going to like pony up the money and pay Sonos. They could also buy Sonos, by the way, let's talk about that for a second, too. It's like, that's the money that Google finds in their couch. Sure. So they could they could do the same thing they did with Fitbit. Or there, if it is a you took our code during our period of cooperation that we have, and they can prove that that's what happened, then it's Google's got to just recode and then they'll be back online. So I think this is a temporary annoyance more than anything. And usually these things are usually these things are it, but it's it's as we start to relinquish more and more of our services to cloud based services. And as you two know, I'm a cloud guy. So I'm pro that. But until we start having regulations and legal mechanisms in place to prevent these larger companies from doing bait and switch on services, which is kind of what this is, it's tenuous steps forward, it's two steps forward, one step back, right? So yeah. And and Google, you know, very quickly worked around most of the issues. It's just the group volume thing that they couldn't come up with an immediate solution. It was that hardware control on the phone, like I used to be able to just use my phone volume switch to control the volume. But I noticed this morning it's back. By the way, they were able to work around that one. It's the group. What did you have to do between in the meantime, you had to use the Google Home app. You had to go. I see volume and not it or walk up to the buttons. Yeah, right, which is hard to do in the ceiling system that I have. Well, we like we like getting feedback from folks. So thanks for the feedback on Sonos. Thanks to Rob for for sharing the personal experience of their their many of you and by many, I mean like three or four, but still several of you wrote in asking about battery swaps over the past few weeks. That's the idea that instead of recharging an electric vehicle on a road trip, say, you just pull into a place that'll take out your depleted battery, swap in a new one that's fully charged, and off you go. There are a lot of benefits to doing that besides just saving you time. Because a lot of these battery swaps, you know, claim to be done in a couple of minutes, you wouldn't have to worry about degrading batteries, because you'd always have the latest battery tech in your car. That also mean you might get improved range over the life of your car instead of decreased range from an aging battery. Now, people are doing this go go go has done this with scooters for years. Scooters, of course, take much smaller batteries than a full size vehicle. Tesla toyed around with the idea back in 2013, they spent three or four years on it, but the program stalled in 2016, and they never went back to it. China's NIO or Neo announced it had reached 700 battery swap stations as of this past December. So they're full bore on it. They can charge they charge you a few hundred dollars a month to lease a battery, and then you get up to six monthly swaps. Its swap stations are automated. They change the battery in three minutes. Partly the reason they can do that is the government of China set a national EV battery swap standard and partnered with companies to develop the stations. So the government is involved in encouraging it. You may wonder why other governments haven't done the same. The challenges to this system are logistical and financial. You would need a lot more batteries than cars to make this work on a widespread basis. You need a good logistical plan so that charged batteries are available at the right place when they're needed. You need a program for safety testing those batteries and to responsibly dispose of older batteries in the system. And to make sense, battery swapping also needs scale and to get scale. It would be best if all the court cars had a universal battery standard so that they could all take the same kind of battery, just like most vehicles can use the same kind of gasoline. That's a design constraint, though, and it's going to be difficult to get car manufacturers to agree to that. None of those are insurmountable problems. But the question is whether there's a big enough payoff to make the effort to surmount them as China is doing. Vehicle range right now is regularly in the 300 mile range and it's going up. Charging times are around 20 minutes on a supercharger and getting closer to 15 is the extra 15 to 20 minutes compelling enough to get enough customers enough of the time to want to do a battery swap when they might have to pay a few hundred dollars a month to do it. One possibility might be for fleets. You have a swap station for all your trucks or all your ride hailing service cars or some such thing in your own facility. You know exactly what your demand is that that simplifies a lot of things. In fact, that's a bet that a San Francisco company called Ample, which has five swap stations in partnership with Uber and Sally is doing. But it looks like most car companies outside of China anyway, are betting that charging is just going to get good enough. And the cases where it would be worth it to do battery swaps are rare enough that it isn't worth pursuing at this point, even if it does work. I'm not sure if it's not that it's not worth pursuing. It's just that the hill is very, very high. Well, yeah. Mounting the hill is not what's worth it. Not that doing it at all wouldn't be worth it. Yeah. But you can still see the advantage of doing it though, because it's there's a couple of things. It's difficult to rely on consumers, sorry, consumers to properly dispose of batteries or properly deal with battery maintenance issues. There is, you know, the people who are commuting, they don't want to wait 20 minutes, right? I mean, it requires a lot of planning head to make sure your car is pre-charged and ready to go for your commute. If you're commuting, aren't you doing it from home? So you're just charged overnight? Theoretically, yeah. Again, consumers, right? You have to plug your car in at night, which I guess most of them do. But yeah. Yeah. So if they can get the charge rates down to like five minutes, then that's competitive with pulling into a petrol station and filling your car up. Yeah. Right. So that's kind of a big thing. But what I hear from most EV owners is I only worry about charging when I'm taking a road trip. Day to day, I've charged overnight and I almost never have to deal with it. Yeah. Yeah. But then you do worry about it. Yeah. I mean, as somebody who has a, you know, I lease my current car, it's not an EV. So this wouldn't really apply to me. But let's say it was to pay a little more per month for the, you know, the life of my lease to say, yeah, if it gets to that point, I want a new battery that I think is attractive to a lot of folks because there's such a barrier to entry for so many people being like, yeah, but what if I take that road trip? Sure, I don't do that every day. But what if I do and I just don't want to get stuck, you know, on the side of the freeway for a while and it kind of ruins everything? This would be a potentially great solution. But again, it does require a lot of batteries to be sitting around waiting for cars to need them. You know, and does that turn into sort of its own landfill? Yeah, we have that problem now, right? So you sell C cell, B cell, A cell batteries, right? Those are there's more batteries than there are devices that take those batteries. Right. That's currently an issue. What I have an issue or concern about, I guess, is that the batteries that are used to power vehicles, they're dangerous. Right. And if a Tesla battery starts on fire, you can't put it out. You have to have a chemical that puts a thing out. So if you've got a reservoir of batteries sitting in a stop at the side of the road, and those all start going up, it's a problem. Right. And not that you can't deal with that safely. I mean, gasoline also can explode and we figured it out. But that's a problem. That's another one of those problems that would need to be solved that makes it go, well, maybe charging is good enough, especially because if it's mostly needed on road trips, a lot of times, and this is what I hear from EV owners is on a road trip, I'm going to stop, go to the bathroom, get a bite to eat anyway. So the extra few minutes in there really doesn't show up, really doesn't annoy me that much. No, I mean, I've got a, I've got a, you know, like Sarah, at least a car. And it gets me the fuel efficiency combined with the computer controlling the car. It's an Audi and does, so it does all this stuff when I'm taking a lot of road trips, I can get all the way down to Los Angeles on one tank from San Francisco, right? Yeah, I can do that with my car too. Yeah, I think about it. Yeah, so it's kind of, it's, you know, and would I be annoyed on that trip if I had to stop twice, which is what you'd have to do in a Tesla? Maybe, I don't know. I don't know. It's unclear. It's unclear. If you regularly drive your EV from San Francisco to Los Angeles, send us an email. Not need a bathroom break. If so, how are you an alien? Yeah, feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. Please do. No, seriously. All right. In Q1 of its earnings, Apple reported the largest single quarter of revenue up 11% on the year with earnings of $2.10, 10 cents per share, both beauty analysts estimates. So it was a good quarter for Apple. Every product category except iPad saw growth. Mac sales were up 25% on the year followed by services of 24%. iPhone revenue grew 9% and CEO Tim Cook said that supply issues were improving with chip supply on legacy nodes, still the biggest issue. So how about that transition to service revenue because we've been talking about this for some time, Apple wanting to be more of a services company? Well, that made up less than 16% of Apple's overall revenue. So still a small chunk, but not insignificant and growing Apple reports that it has 785 million paying subscribers in total across all the services that offers up 165 million over last year. So a good, good growth jump. Getting subscribers is helped by having people who use Apple devices. We talk about this all the time. The walled garden, the active Apple install base grew by 150 million devices to 1.65 billion devices. Apple services segment includes the App Store, iCloud and Apple TV Plus, as well as music and news and games, fitness payment and other services. So you might ask, okay, how is Apple TV Plus doing since Apple doesn't break out those numbers specifically? Well, Apple was a little cagey about this, but CEO Tim Cook focused on the number of awards and nominations that Apple TV Plus's programming Slade has enjoyed 200 award wins and more than 890 nominations. I don't know how you get that many nominations probably some of the word shows I've never heard of, but a lot of Emmy's, a lot of weird Emmy entries. Yeah, sure. So but rather than, you know, focusing on viewership or subscriber numbers, Cook mentioned, you know, popular feature films, The Tragedy of Macbeth, for example, Dakota, Spawn Song, throwing some plugs for upcoming series, Severance, The After Party. And in response to an analyst question about, OK, where is Apple TV Plus going? Would it, for example, want to acquire a studio? You know, where's the growth going to come from coming forward? Cook said, we don't make purely financial decisions about the content. We try to find great content that has a reason for being. Cook went on to say, and this is a quote, we love shows like Ted Lasso and several of the other shows. He couldn't remember any of those. We have a reason for existing and that may have a good message and may make people feel better at the end of it. But I don't feel we've narrowed our universe of things that we're selecting from. There's plenty to pick from out there. And I think we're doing a pretty good job of it as we speak. So, huh, well, that was very Hollywood-y of Cook. It's like he spent time in Hollywood for that statement. You know, I'm not going to comment on the hardware, you know, see my previous comment about Sonos, even if the silo is big, big siloed companies driving crazy. But the content thing is interesting because because they have failed kind of spectacularly at services in the past, right? It's it's, you know, Apple Maps is it's getting it's better than it ever was. But it's been a long road for a while. Yeah, I see what you did there. I see what you did there. It's nice. You know, and their ability to deal with, you know, iCloud and the rest of it, it's just been they don't know how to deal with the Internet. But this is an area that they could probably succeed. I'm going going to 16 percent from zero is a pretty good number, I got to say. And it probably I haven't looked at the charts, but I'm sure it corresponds to the fact to the timing when they opened it up because it used to be you can only get Apple TV on the Apple device, the Apple TV device, and they opened it up. But now you can get it on Chromecast and Amazon Fire and every, you know, all the other stuff. And that probably resulted in explosive growth. The one bundling stuff, I think probably yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it seems probably true of Apple Music. I don't use that either. But I know that the numbers there have increased as well. So that strategy, I think it's paying off as to whether they're going to buy a studio or not. I mean, Amazon did it. And, you know, but did Netflix hasn't read Netflix? I mean, they have they have their own internal studios that they built themselves, but I don't think they've acquired any studios. Yeah, they've acquired content come like Miller World, you know, but they haven't acquired a studio the way we think of, you know, the way Amazon wants to acquire MGM for it. Yeah. Yeah, I I don't know. I think people misinterpret Apple's strategy. And I think that's what Tim Cook was dancing around, which is we want to make really good shows. And right now, we're not worried about competing with Netflix. Well, we want to have a really good shows that we can point to and say, Hey, if you're in our service universe, we've got Ted Lasso, you know, we've got Tom Hanks in movies. They also want you to watch Netflix on Apple TV as well. They'd prefer it if Netflix offered their subscription through the upstores that they could take 30% of it. And I think that's that's really what they want is they want to take a cut of everything. They want to offer channels and all of that. And Apple TV Plus is always going to be a little bit of a loss leader to that, I think they're doing it now. Like I was like, I started watching Apple TV. What's the device called? What's the service called? Apple TV is the service. Apple TV and Apple TV Plus is the service. Yes. Okay. So I started watching Apple TV Plus because of Ted Lasso and Foundation and a few other mythic quest and a few other things on there that I like. And the quality of the production is extremely high. Like it's really, really nice job with it. They have a long way to go to catch up to, you know, Netflix and HBO Max and some of the other and Hulu, right? But if they continue pumping out content like that, that's great. But what I was surprised was they seem to be taking the route that Amazon is taking where they've got a hub of other providers. You can subscribe to Showtime via Apple TV Plus, right? And all these other services, which, you know, I played with a little bit on Amazon and I found it very confusing. So I just go right to the content provider, you know, I get apps for, you know, I've got my own Showtime app and all that stuff and I just use it that way. Because it's confusing when you're navigating, but you're right. They want to be the portal that everyone logs into and they take a little piece of the pie as you go from Apple TV to Showtime or Apple TV to two stars or wherever else you're going to go. Yeah, I think that that is the plan. And whether it's as an add on to Apple TV Plus or whether it's just an app with an retake and 30% on maybe 15% of an Amazon's case. Yeah, they just they just want a little little cut of all that action. All right, let's check out the mailbags here. Let's do it. By the way, feedback at daily technewshow.com is where to send an email that you want us to read something that we've talked about on the show, something that sparks your interest that we might talk about on a future show, such as Andrew, Andrew Rudin said, I have two things on the zero trust story from Thursday show. Number one, there are already some widely used government run zero trust systems, at least in the Department of Defense platform one has one, and I'm sure that there are others as cloud based deployment and development gains popularity. Number two, standardization and interoperability between zero trust providers is not fully ironed out yet. I have to use a zero trust tool from vendor a at my job to access one set of networks. Well, another set of networks that currently runs on a VPN is transitioning to a zero trust app from vendor B. If the two are installed on my computer at the same time, it seems like neither will work. I'm a long tenured software engineer and I don't really know why says Andrew. So good to get a little inside, inside info on that. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing that. The plan is really good. The execution always is where the issues can crop up. There's an interesting article on Tech Dirt today about military folks using signal, even though it's officially against policy, because sometimes they don't have the official policy approved messaging app because they don't have a phone that has been issued that can that can run it. So there's there's always those workarounds out there. Well, thanks to everybody who writes in. Thank you to you, Andrew, and everybody else who sends this email. Please keep it coming. It's always nice to get your thoughts makes our show better. We also would like to thank our brand new bosses. Got two of them today, Stacy Hall and Richard Terry, both just started backing us on Patreon. Thank you, Stacy, and thank you, Richards. Also, thanks to you, Rob DeMillo for being with us today. I'm always a pleasure to have you. Let folks know where they can keep up with what you do. You big lug. You can find out everything I'm doing and about me. So about me slash Rob DeMillo. And of course, if you want to check out skidmore orings and Merrill, my friend, you can look at www.SOM.com and find out what we're doing. Well, thanks for being with us again today. And a reminder for folks, you might be listening or watching live, but if you aren't, we are live Monday through Friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 21 30 UTC. We have a lot of fun chatting in the back channels about everything we're doing. You can find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live and we will be back Monday. I hope you all have a great weekend. This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people host producer and writer Tom Merritt host producer and writer Sarah Lane, executive producer and Booker Roger Chang, producer, writer and host Rich Drafilino, video producer and Twitch producer Joe Coontz, associate producer Anthony Lemos, Spanish language host writer and producer Dan Campos, news host writer and producer Jen Cutter, science correspondent Dr. Nikki Ackermans, social media producer and moderator Zoe Deterding, our mods Beatmaster, W Scottish One, BioCal, Captain Kipper, Jack Shid, Steve Guadirama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens and J.D. Galloway, modern video hosting by Dan Christensen, video feed by Sean Wei, music and art provided by Martin Bell, Dan Looters, Mustafa A, ACAST and Len Peralta, live art performed by Len Peralta, ACAST ad support from Trace Gaynor, Patreon support from Dylan Harari. Contributors for this week's shows include Scott Johnson and Justin Robert Young. Guests on this week's shows included J.J. Owen Stone, Owen J.J. Stone, Oh Doctor, and Rob DeMillo and thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Hope you have enjoyed this program.