 Hi everyone welcome to our sort of first meeting of our group as it's now known as the arts and cultural heritage working group. A lot of folks will have known us as the DLF museums cohort but we changed the group's name earlier this year to sort of reflect the broad variety of institutions are membership or affiliated with. So we'll keep things pretty short today I have a shared notes doc and agenda feel free to drop your name in the list of folks who are attending the meeting. If you scroll to the bottom there's a section for you to share if you have any upcoming events or work to promote to the group feel free to add that to the doc. And otherwise feel free to add any notes or questions as they come up you can either add them into the doc or add them into the chat. If, during the presentation then we'll sort of get to everyone's questions afterwards. When we turn off recording and have the discussion portion of the meeting so without further ado I'll hand things over to Jamie who really appreciate you volunteering to share this with us today really excited. Thank you again to thanks. It's nice to see you in like some my person. Hey everybody, I'm excited I've been excited about this all week. Thanks so much for coming. I haven't been a part of this working group. Thanks Jenny. So some of you I know and some of you I don't. My name is Jamie and I work at the Library of Congress. Before that I worked in the personal digital archiving space and created this public digitization station and program public education program called the memory lab, which is what became I'm a less funded and is at a bunch of different public libraries around the country. So I feel like I'm more known probably in the DLF community for that work maybe then what I've been doing at the library for the past couple years. Thanks Gail. So, I've only when I saw that the name had been changed from the museum's working group to arts and cultural heritage I just immediately reached out to ask if I could have some time and join this group and start a discussion and a space that I've been thinking about a lot lately so I hope it seems relevant for those of you that are here. I run this. It's kind of like an artist residency program at the Library of Congress called the innovator and residence program and it's been around for about six years. I'm on our fifth resident now, and I've never really had the space. I don't know if anyone else feels this way but I just haven't had the space to kind of think about the experiences of the different residents and the trends that have been emerging because it's just it's been just break next week to try to get their work out in a year and you know what I mean like have it be something that we could share like that the library was okay with sharing like as an organization and all the outreach that comes with that and then the public engagement that comes with that so it just it never felt like there was time and I think I made it a goal for this year to try to have more opportunities to think more strategically about the program and talk talk to other people about their experiences with hosting artists and residents are like what they're finding that artists are encountering when they try to work with, you know with their archives or with their collections. So this is the first time that I'm kind of doing that I feel like in a meta sense and so I'm really happy to start the conversation and see what things, you know are interesting to you. So the structure for the hour I was thinking was, I'm going to do like a quick chatterfall activity because I want to get a sense from everybody of your context and some of the things you're thinking about when you saw the topic for this working group presentation, and then I have like a 15 to 20 minute presentation that I prepared. And then I had this like, if you're familiar with liberating structures there's like a couple of structured activities that my team at LC labs does a lot on zoom calls that everybody gets the chance to speak and kind of share their thoughts equally. So I have an idea for structured activity if that's what we want to do or if you know conversations flowing and we don't really need that then I'll scrap it. So that's the plan, and that'll be the hour. Okay, so that sounds good to everybody I'll start with the chatterfall so if you haven't done a chatterfall before the way it works is that I'm going to ask a question and we'll have a couple minutes to kind of think. So think about it and type a response but you won't hit enter yet until I say go so that everybody's answers. Waterfall at the same time that way. You have the space to think yourself instead of being influenced by other people and it's just, I don't know it's kind of fun. So I have a couple of questions where we'll use the structure so this first one will take two minutes. I just want to know like, where, what context are you. Thanks, Tony. I appreciate the emojis are like, Elias I like seeing your responses. So, the first question I have is just where like what's your context professional or personal for why you're interested in this topic and like what are you hoping to learn. So context and what are you hoping to hear about or learn. All right, and if you're ready we'll go. Okay, so we're just going to take a minute here to read everybody's answers. I'm seeing if you don't mind I'll read some for everybody I'm seeing Jenny is really interested in learning how artists have changed libraries and maybe dream what can be done in this area. I mean, okay personally as an artist school interest in digital humanities yet there's lots of overlap there and Jack hoping to learn how library resources can collaborate better museum exhibitions okay programs focus on things other than traditional scholarly research. Okay, and public educators yeah there's a lot of overlap. I'm reading Malia's out of fund and host and artist residency. Okay. Okay, so it looks like we have people coming from different types of cultural heritage institutions which is cool, and I'm seeing a lot of interest in like to ideas for like running a residency, or paying for it and I I've read a lot of that in my presentation but that's certainly something that I can speak to and answer questions about and we can take some of the discussion time to do that. As people have questions. Okay. And so this next part again will be like a minute and a minute same format. What do you have to offer. For this working group today, do you think it may be a little bit redundant to the first one because I see some of your saying your artists but all of you are coming with experiences like related to this so what do you think you can offer like kind of in the context of this discussion. All right, and if you're ready press enter. Yeah, back on art museums. I love that there's so many artists here that's really it's so like surprising for me actually don't get to work with people that are artists and librarians very often so it's just very exciting. And I think your perspective is really important. Yes, Gail so I'm reading yours the experience with community engagement now she reaches like half, like half of the work so very relevant. Oh that would be Devin that's really helpful. I'm going to talk a little bit about the types of things that artists have been interested in so far. Okay, so I am going to kind of take all of this and as things feel relevant in the presentation that I prepared I'm going to digress a little bit to some of the things that I'm seeing come up in the chat. This is super casual so I'm going to share my screen but I'm just going to keep it in the PowerPoint software so that I can bounce in and out to showing examples online, please interrupt me it doesn't bother me. I have a question like about a specific project I'm talking about, or just something tangentially related. I really welcome that share my screen. For this kind of like one of my like first attempts to try to synthesize I think what I've been learning from running this program over the past five years. One of the biggest things I've learned, and it's like I kind of knew it maybe intuitively but I have like a whole grab bag of real examples now and like kind of a some ideas of like where to go next and I'm curious how much it resonates with you all is that. The Library of Congress where I'm coming from our, our archive, like many archives has many artists in them, but was not built for them. It seems to be that the, you know the digital archive does a really good job of showing content as in, you know if you're looking for a particular historical moment or something like that but if you're looking for a color palette, or if you're looking for a type of musical characteristic right like for a song that you're making it, it doesn't do a good job of doing that the known path is very like tech space and is very kind of content based. And then there also seems to be, you know, a lot of context for preservation reasons which makes a lot of sense that in a lot of ways is confusing to someone who's coming to remix or like, reinterpret collections it's like technical and kind of irrelevant. So, with that, with kind of looking at those, some of those barriers I'll kind of give some examples of the different artists that we've had and some of the things that I'm kind of seeing over and over again and paint a picture of what we're starting to think of as like a roadmap for what we could do to make our digital archive more relevant for artists and why why we should do that with all the different priorities we have like why why would we put money into this thing. I feel strongly that we should and I'll talk a little bit about that. First thing I want to do though is talk about money. So my sister division in the digital strategy directorate at the Library of Congress is called the Connecting Communities Digital Initiative and it is funded by the Mellon Foundation. And the purpose of it is to engage communities of color around the country and with our collections and also learn how to better serve groups that we traditionally have not served well. So there are we're right in the middle of a bunch of announcements of residency and funding opportunities that are coming out and they probably will be relevant to folks on this call who are here for personal reasons or professional. So the first one is the artist or scholar in residence. My colleague actually just shared this on the DLF announced listserv so if you're on that this is just fresh in your email I think she sent it about an hour ago. The CCDI folks are paying $90,000 to to two folks that they'll appoint for $90,000. They can self identify as an artist or scholar or hybrid of both who wants to work with library collections in some way. There's more details in the in the email, but the application period for that will close on August 7. So, and whatever that is like a month and a half. And it just came out so it's kind of a tight turnaround so please share that widely. Apply yourself. If you're an artist or scholar and you think that's interesting. Probably be relevant for a lot of people here. They're giving out grants for libraries archives and museums, the application deadline for this is September 7. It's up to $70,000 to support three local cultural heritage organizations by enabling storytelling across the platform. And the projects have to center on one of the following groups, black, indigenous Hispanic or Latino, Asian American Pacific Islander and or other communities of color. So it has to be a specific audience focus and your pitch for this grant, and I'm going to share the stacks so you'll have these links, but also if you search CCDI Library of Congress she'll come to the page that has all of this information. And then the last one, if any of you work at a minority serving higher education institution there's a separate grant initiative for that same deadline, same amount of money up to $70,000. Happy to answer any questions about that that you have to the best of my ability but all great programs and pretty good money. So, okay, so let's get into it. Why am I running a residency program I work on this team called LC labs and we help support the Library of Congress is digital strategy so it's like how can the library kind of age gracefully into the future as a way those are my words for how to think about it. But you know we were constantly trying to keep up with disruptions that are happening happening like through technology, etc, and react to them in a way that's responsible and also thinking about future planning. And we do this through three different methods we run experiments, and we publish the findings of those on our website labs.loc.gov and share them with our colleagues. We run residencies, such as the innovator and residence program, and then we also do convenings on some convenings that we've done recently is the machine learning and library summit that happened in right before coven. And we publish a report about that and we've also done a couple of collections as data symposiums over the years all the videos for those are online and their reports that we commissioned for those as well. So, I'm just going to run through a couple of examples of artists we've had what they did and what I've been seeing as like trends for what's been challenging about working with the digital collections in general. The first innovator in residence we had is the data artist Jare Thorpe. So he, it was like intentionally a pilot with him because we wanted to work someone with someone who had had experience working for like with large digital archives before so Jare had previously been a resident at the New York Times they had a date of his residency that he did and he also worked for National Geographic as a resident. So we felt like he was like a seasoned person to kind of try to figure out how we would run something like this. And it was really really helpful to have him be the first, because he could be really honest about the ways that he was supported by the agencies before he came right and like how we were doing that and how we weren't doing that so well. And it wasn't personal is just like I've done this a lot and this is a way that you could improve so it was really great to have him. And what he found pretty quickly is that even though we're one of the largest libraries in the world, we really do not have a lot of large homogenous data sets, like we don't. We have a scale that's like clean and ready to like make apps with or like make visualizations with in the way that he probably was used to at a place like the New York Times. And one of the, you know, this is a long time ago it was like 2017 but one of the things that we did have which all libraries have right is. Most libraries have is mark mark records, we had mark records with lots and lots of mark records and we had done this like big data dump of all of our mark records from the very first to to when we released them in 2017 2018. So that actually, even though he had ideas for other things and, and those things didn't work out unfortunately, he was able to pivot really quickly and use the thing that we had to try to make something engaging. So, if you look at labs a lot that gov at his work, he created, I think, seven or eight different web apps that allow you to serendipitously browse the Library of Congress's archives through us through different paradigms like time, like cocktail party from a certain year. This one is an example of color, like how to browse the collections by color. And the reason why he thought this was important was because he thought the archive was very focused on a certain type of user a scholar that was coming because they knew what they were looking for. And he wanted to bring this idea of kind of serendipitous passive browsing of just like a generally curious person he wanted to see how you could enable that like through the mark records. So what was cool about he did a lot of stuff while he was with us. This was the project that ended up being the most popular the library of colors that you're seeing. And he visualized essentially a series of palettes that pulled from the title or like 596 field from a mark record and pulled a color term from that. And he visualized it as a color. So what you're looking right now is a palette of our photograph collection that we had mark records for as of 2017. And as you kind of scrub across the palette you could click on any particular item that would come up and click to see the original. So an example is that we have the queer photographer France, Francis Benjamin Williams photography collection her garden collection is really popular. And this, that's in this like still happens to be a picture of her two cats at their house in New Orleans. And why it's here is because the word brick was cross indexed with the color red as a palette so it shows up in here as red and you could click and see the original image. So he did this for maps he did this for literature and the color palettes look different for each one, which became really interesting for digital humanists that were looking at the application because they, you know there's some questions on Twitter of like why is there so much black and blue in the literature palette and why does maps have these certain dominant colors, which was interesting, but it was mostly just to make it fun, and to make it just aesthetically an aesthetically pleasing kind of fun way to engage across a scale of collections. Since then I thought this would be interesting for folks from university libraries. So our artists when we, when they work as residents they're actually contractors, like they we draw up a contract with them and they sign it. So it's not the same as, you know, working under grant money or you know something like that or an endowed chair position which we also have at the library these are contractors. We also have a contract where we say like what their deliverables will be. And because they're all funded with taxpayer dollars, everything that we agree that they're going to deliver is CC zero license. So I think that's really important and that and we also require that they deliver on top of the work that they make a lot of documentation and as well as any underlying code will go into a GitHub repo. I'm saying that for context to say that what's happened a couple times which has been great is that there's like an instance of what the artist does with us like Jared did Library of Colors with us. But a couple years later the University of Illinois Urbana champagne commission chair to create a library of colors with their holdings, and it opened says it in this thing I haven't seen it in person. It opened in 2021 so it opened in 2021 and it's actually on their campus in the east foyer of their high school building. And he did something a little different. Not only is the color palette visualizing their actual holdings, but he did a thing where the, the screens that show the color palette and the installation reflect the time of day. In this example, it's kind of like a dawn dusk palette so items that kind of show dawn dusk will show up at those times of day versus nighttime if that makes sense. So he did something a little bit different with it. But I think that's part of the beauty of some of the choices that we've made about this program let's continue to be great is that it's what they make goes into the public domain. There's an opportunity for the artist to do other instances of their work and claim intellectual property, you know on that in the future if they want to. So it's kind of a, I think it's like a win-win, but I'll talk more about IP in a little bit. And DJ is probably the most popular work that has come out of this program. It was created by Brian Fu who actually has a background in museums he was working at the Natural History Museum in New York at the time when he became our innovator in residence and now he works for CCDI the Library of Congress, which is awesome. Brian had a background in cultural heritage but he also had a background in hip hop and was a musician and was a B-boy when he was young. And he really didn't like what the 90s and copyright did to the sampling community of hip hop. And he thought that a really great thing would be for the National Library to basically create a national creative free to use sounds to kind of bring back the, you know, that 80s, early 90s, you know, heyday of hip hop and sampling and creative remixing that further copyright legislation kind of like rained in. So, he had a very clear user group in mind like I want to make something for hip hop artists that are looking for samples and can't find them. And he saw a unique opportunity for us to do this as a national library. I'm not going to show the part of this video, because it will take too much time but I put this in the slide deck because when we release the app, which you can find if you just search Citizen DJ. It allows you to sonically browse sounds from a collection, you can click on any one of them to find the original item with its context, you can download samples to use in your own music making software, and it also has like a very low tech dom, that's free. So you can like mix stuff and hear different drum tracks over it and kind of see if you want the sound or not so it's a way to kind of like try it out, you know what I mean before you commit. And it was so fun because we found all of these people online like in the Reddit community and on YouTube making tutorials like for their own communities about it and saying, Oh my gosh I can't believe the Library of Congress did this like this is such a cool thing and this that this artist ghetto styles did has a really big on YouTube following and is always sharing like resources with fellow musicians and he endorsed the product and, you know, I think a lot of folks like who were watching the video had probably never used the Library of Congress before so I think this is a great example of the types of things that can happen when you have an artist. See a need and you. You know this was, how do I say this. This was a really hard project to pull off as the home of the copyright office, the Library of Congress houses the copyright office and the reason why that is probably obvious but I'll say it which is that we don't. We've never had a history of endorsing the fact that you could use particular free to use materials online for commercial use, you know we've never said, here's the thing and did you know you could use this and make money with it. But that was kind of implicit in this project was that we were making samples for people to then make music and sell it because they were artists and that's how they make their living. And that type of paradigm and the work that we did with our general counsel and our colleagues and copyright to have everyone understand why this was worth the risk of doing and the work that we did to really make sure that everything that we were putting in here was ethically okay to sample and to was like, totally free use and there was no question. All of that work was the kind of boring background part of the year, like that's what we spent a lot of the year doing the technical part the machine learning that Brian had to do was kind of the quickest part. And I think that's an aspect that a lot of people don't know and that I'm still kind of thinking about because there's a lot of lessons, just in this particular example. And people still continue are continuing to use citizen DJ and so many creative ways. One of the things I'll say, why I think it's important to make changes to make our digital archives work for artists is that artists then in turn, artists then in turn like do the things they make for inspiration or use the things that they make to do more so there's this kind of like snowball downstream effect of, you know, you're paying an artist to do something and then what they make they other artists see you as relevant all of a sudden as a place to go and then the things they make become relevant and so it's just a huge return on investment and what I'm showing here is, we did this national user testing campaign because it was coven when the work came out and everybody was at home so we were like, could you help us with user testing like play with this tool, you know, let us know what you think we'd love to incorporate, you know, your feedback into the final version. And as a part of that search, we had people optionally self identify as who they were. And as you can see the majority of people saw themselves as artists are just kind of generally creatives that were interested in using the tool and that is not similar to the types of self identification for other digital products that we make available. I am going to play this home talking. I don't know if the sound will share though. Let's try it. Maybe not. Can you hear that. So, one of the things we found is that with this release. We had all of these like awesome collaborations happen, where people were using the tool and the samples to make collaborative compositions from different places around the United States. This is an example of a group harbanger. They ended up performing at the Library of Congress and all of the samples that are using are from the citizen DJ platform, but it was so creative. And just really, really like fantastic, completely unique, completely unprecedented use of what we were making available. I love the whole video so awesome. Anyway, that was one example but there were a lot of them. Another example is that in the outreach section of citizen DJ, you'll see this in a number of the case studies from this program. At the time when it came out it was coded and so a bunch of teachers and especially after school programs were really struggling to figure out how to create engaging after school programming online and making that kind of turn. We ended up using citizen DJ the summer after it was released to sponsor for different after school, like hip hop education community programs around the country, there was one in Miami there was one in Detroit, one in New York and one in Chicago. And we worked with the, the teachers to share the tool. And they all did projects like with their students using citizen DJ. So they would do a little bit of history research they would make a song or they would use sound in a podcast presentation that they would do. It was used in a lot of different ways but it was so so cool that it was free and could enable virtual, I guess like collaboration, you know, even in an education context which was not the main purpose. Last thing I'll say about this is that there's no like out of at least at the time. I don't know like me, I'd be curious to know if you guys know of anything new I know British libraries doing a bunch of stuff with the sound sampling but at the time when Brian made this and like Elsie labs is like helping him with this project. There is a live like off the shelf tools for working with time based media for text right so like speech to text or something like that. But not for analyzing sound to find a key, or to find like a part of the song that was very high quality that wasn't scratchy, you know like those types of very. aesthetic that a musician would care about there weren't a lot of off the tool products for that and Brian built that and it's now like free code online. So we have this hope still we haven't seen it happen. But we have this hope that someone else will try this, like with some of their AV material like as a pilot. So if any of you do want to try it or you're interested we would be happy to collaborate. To see how this works. Most of the pipeline that he made should be ready to go. The only thing that's different is that he used the Library of Congress is API to grab AV material out and instead you could upload, you know your own things, or if you have an API you could point it at that it would just be the first part of the pipeline that would be your context, but the rest of it is the same. It's looking at a film that has an audio track or audio and finding some of it that are sonically significant and then classifying them with like a number of parameters that allows you to sonically browse them. I'm looking at the time so I'm going to just very quickly say that another case study that we had was from someone who was from the artist Courtney McClellan, she was an innovator in 2021. My name is Dr. Brian, and she has a fine arts background had worked in museums is based in Atlanta, Georgia. And in her work with museums, she found that a lot of younger visitors to the museums, the types of engaging activities that they wanted was an ability to remix or like visually kind of engage with material that was on display in the museum. I don't know if anyone here from a museum context has also seen that. But coming with that background and also coming as a fine artist her project as innovator was to create a annotation application that would host certain free to use items from the library's collection I think there's like maybe 30 in the app. And she in a in her print studio like handcrafted symbols and you know quotation marks and like things and then digitize those to allow you to like stamp the item, make text on the item. And then there's also an affordance in the application where you can, like if you're in a classroom, annotate an item and then share it with another student to like annotate there's almost like an exquisite exquisite corpse style like engagement where you like layer it. And the user testing that we did with for this was, it was still COVID protocols were most classrooms were online. So she got permission to work with a couple different middle schools and high schools around the country in both urban and rural school systems and they did testing with this tool to inform the way that it works now. Again, this is open source you could upload your own items into it, because it is annotation, annotation base there's a I mean with with actually every single one of these applications. There's documentation and a part of that is like ethical use. So, for this particular one so for Brian he made a guide for ethical sampling, like how do you do that what are the types of questions you think about. For this one, there's a guide and the repo that talks about what are the types of things you need to think about when you think about giving someone an image to annotate. You don't have control over who the person is but the annotating who's depicted in the image. You know it's it's a whole, it's a whole list, which was useful as we thought about what it would look like for other institutions to adopt the app and use it. So if you have questions more questions about that I'm happy to answer them. I think Jer Courtney is continuing to use the Library of Congress's collections in her own work. This is a part of the Atlanta biennial that happened in 2022. She used it's a blueprint of the Carnegie Library that we have in our photo archives or something. And as a digital art piece display titled the advancement of learning and it was put over, you know, an intersection as a digital billboard in Atlanta while the biennial was happening, which was very cool to see. And I think she still continues to use, you know, to look at our archives for inspiration for her work. Next one is our current innovator so we haven't really talked about this about Jeff's work like to publicly there's a couple of blog posts that you can find online we've done a couple of Instagram and Twitter campaigns. But Jeff is a Korean American artist, he has a background in environmental active activism and he was one of the co creators of public lab. And he is doing this project with us he'll actually be staying on with us for a second year which is the first time we've done that for this residency it's usually only year but we're going to make it to. And he is visualizing destroyed China towns around the country. And what you're seeing here is him working with a sandborn map to recreate a China town that no longer exists in Providence Rhode Island which is where he's from. This is an example of that. It's a walking tour virtual reality tour of that. And he just announced that the second site is going to be a series of Chinese gardens and Portland that were destroyed. The main thing that he's doing with us is actually not these prototypes like that's not like the deliverable work. The deliverable that we wanted the most was for him to make a toolkit that has videos and tutorials for how anybody could do research with a digital collection if they don't have experience and create one of these three models, you know for a neighborhood that's relevant to them. And a lot of this work has been him sharing. How harming a digital archive can be and like what are the things that a person needs to think about when they're doing this type of relational reconstruction work, and like where is the archive like appropriate for that and how. And one of the main things that he's starting to talk about in his blog posts and will, I know in his second year is that the strategy for a lot of this work, because our archive and so many archives are so white centered is that finding the edges of things like China towns from the 19th century have been destroyed are often you're just looking at the edges of a picture or at the edges of an image embedded in a newspaper that has a racist caption, you know it's like this type of really very harming detective work of like looking at the edges for the very precious thing that's taking you 100 hours to find like that's what the work looks like and so he's really engaging with that and working with different folks in different neighborhoods around the sorry I think is slowing down. So next year he's going to be taking this on the road and working with other neighborhoods interested in doing this and kind of user testing the toolkit to improve it and try to figure out how to make these methods more accessible for folks that are interested in this type of ancestral work. So museums will be a place that we really hope to be he's done work in the past with places like culture hub. He's done pop ups at museums, and he's been prototyping a lot with virtual reality low tech. I think my video slowing down a little bit I'll just stop it for a second, let me know if you're having trouble hearing me. So this is him wearing a VR mask that he and he made a Korean, a Korean like folk mask as the container for the, for the VR app on his phone it's like a holder for that. So he's very interested in mixing like very very analog very very accessible techniques with digital to make these things more fun and make them more experientially felt in real time like as a group. So we're really excited to try some of these methods in in person. Next year. Okay, this is where I'm going to end this kind of like tour of like the, you know, these are case studies these are some things that ours have done in residency with us, but I want to kind of end with this which is, as I'm beginning to think about the things that we've seen, like across all of them, there's a lot, a lot to unpack but some things that just came to mind for me a couple days ago as I was planning for this. And one is that I think there, we have a lot of evidence now of why engaging in funding creatives is so useful for making our digital collections relevant it just the work that they do to interpret it makes them relevant for communities. And I think that it's not only the work that they make. It's the fact that as because they are in residence we get to see in real time their experience trying to navigate right our staff, our digital collections with their kind of like weird bun year clips but you know these kinds of strange questions like for our reference staff, and how that works for them and how it doesn't. So we get this great. You know, sense of what it's like to actually do the work, the deliverables as well you know become gifts to the public because they're all public domain. And I would also say that for, you know, for a lot of the artists they, they stay friends, like we become very close they stay friends they stay a part of our network, and have continued to engage their own communities with some of the resources we have at the library. So the problems, high level problems that I just keep seeing over and over again rights. are not discussed so the first thing is that the library is doing work right now to standardize its right statements which is a fantastic first step like it'll be so great when that's fully implemented and that's awesome. That's not the case right now, and also for a lot of our archival collections they're not described at the item level. Now I understand like for museums that's different I know there's a lot of rich item level metadata and museums but for a lot of archives and libraries that I've worked in that's And it really has to be, because a lot, even though the artist might be working at scale. A lot of times they are working on the item level and they don't understand the actual right statement for that particular item, the nuance of it isn't reflected at the collection level right statement. It's just constantly an issue, and a lot of times we end up literally walking around the halls of the library going to vertical files and having conversations with archivists that like remember more details about the gift agreement to really make sure that like the right statement is very clear. And when it wasn't we went to the artist themselves to ask. I think the other thing about it is just that what we learned with Brian making that rights guide is that. rights is not explicit that you could use it, you're either one going to use it irresponsibly, or you're not going to use it at all. Most of the time what we see is that folks just don't use it at all right like they just don't engage because it's too hard, like it's just not clear, like if they can remix something or not, or, you know, understanding is what I'm doing truly transformational and so it doesn't matter if it's under copyright like all that is just so. It's such a barrier that it's like not worth engaging, and that's what we find most of the time. The other trend that I see is that what I was mentioning earlier are the discoverability avenues and the digital collection just seem to be very focused on historians I would say, or like for our own like preservation and there are real very specific things that like I could put in a roadmap tomorrow for what an artist needs when they're navigating the digital collections that we've seen from all of these innovators. They want to see the shape of a collection in total and what I mean by that is, like instead of getting lost in the individual items. So if you want to see the example of like for a full collection, what is the color palette of that collection what are the types of aesthetics that come out. Like when you're looking at a visual collection at scale. If it's a sonic collection they want to know what types of sounds are overrepresented what is the main key you're seeing here. So there's like different aesthetics to to the shape of a collection that they want to engage with before they go too deeply in, because they, they know technically you know certain aspects of what they're looking for for their work. So, there's not only a need for like add affordances for these types of what I would call like creative discovery facets, but also, they also need deep item level metadata that preserves the context, once they find, you know something that they want to use, they are very, very interested in engaging with the provenance of these items. And a lot of times that's a huge part of the narrative, like of their artistic work or artistic practice. So to not have that metadata will be, you know, a huge thing for, well, I'm going to move on right I just I don't know there's not enough information about this item for me to use it so I'm just not going to. So it's, it's a hard problem right because all of this is resourcing. The metadata enrichment, it's requiring, you know, item level metadata, which is so resource and labor intensive to do, I understand all of those things. The two other ones I'll say is stories that inspire so I think when I first started running this program, what I would thought was that people would just say, Oh, you're one of the largest libraries in the world like what a huge medium to have like to find stories but it's actually, it seems so obvious not so I'm laughing, but it's like very intimidating. Like, and there are so many paths that you could go on that it's actually in some ways not inspiring at all. But what's inspiring is the, is the, the story of a particular item you know what I mean or the types of context that you hear a curator talk about or, you know, what you read about in like a blog post right that someone's taking the time to do all of the secondary interpretive resources that I know all of you on the call have probably made at some point in your career. Those entry ways into the question of why would I care about this or so what has been so valuable for artists because they really need a place to be inspired to start and it's not looking at, you know, over 1000 collections or tens of 1000, you know items online is just it's, there's nothing to like put your teeth into if that makes sense I don't know. So these interpretive resources are so useful and then you know of course the beauty of having the program is that the innovators in and of themselves then become the next people to make further interpretive resources which is incredible. And that's, that's a huge issue and the last thing is something I mentioned briefly which is that it's really important up front to negotiate and explicitly agree on what the breakdown is with the artists own intellectual property and what you are claiming as an organization to own. So, this is one of the few things we've done well from from the very beginning and it was forced that way because these were paid with taxpayer dollars but it's a very clear line for us which is, if we agree on this thing that you're going to deliver to us. It will be CC zero. We cannot claim, you know, intellectual property on this instance of the thing and that's enough for some artists not to apply, and we totally understand that. But it's just the scope, you know that it's that's important for us for how this program is funded and the mission of it. Wow, not a lot of time for discussion I'm really sorry. Too many slides in here. This is all super fascinating was really great to hear about all these projects. And I'm almost thinking maybe we could coordinate off zoom to plan a sort of continuation of, you know the discussion portion of this at a future call. Yeah, that would be great. So I know we only have six minutes up but I think especially because a few of you I know but most of you I don't and because I haven't been a part of this working group before. I want to do a second conversation or even asynchronous conversation like what are some of the things you can put them in the chat you can come off mute that really resonated with you because I'm fully aware that because I'm from the library like we're weird beast. And we're not similar to like a lot of university libraries or museum contacts I know that but some things are similar so I'm just curious like what, what was relevant from what I was sharing and have you had experiences, you know, with these same issues and serving artists or as an artist using a digital archive, or any thoughts, not related to that. I can say I was going to type it but it might be just easier for me to say it. I think the discussion about copyright in general was very important, especially for archives like mine where we have a lot of artists who are still alive or that they hold a copyright or they there's living areas to copyright it's always kind of a minefield, to say the least in terms of even basically sharing on our social media so you know I would love the CCP to have this kind of program but I see that would be a huge problem like you said, when it's in like ambiguous or there's like murkiness that can really this way people from really taking, taking advantage of these. And another thing that I thought was interesting coming from a more archival field and you know, are a version to item level description for the labor that comes with it I think these alternate methods of description like the palette or like the sound of a collection is very interesting and I would love to explore that more with other collections and thinking like how we could. How we can rethink description that way for in order to build archives like you said in the beginning for artists rather about artists. I'm saying that and one of the things I'll say about copyright is that in a couple of these projects. The artist wanted to work with an item so badly that was under copyright that they reached out with the help of our staff that have the relationship with the donor. And I would say about half of those interactions the, the person said yes, because they really liked the work, and they thought it was important and they're fine with it. So, I was surprised actually like 50% a pretty high number to say okay. I think that that will continue to be the case. And I think that it's just a question of like, is there work, you know, something that the donor is like bought into or not you know and you just have no control over that. I think that's just using her kind of and how we can improve. Yeah. So Rita, I can speak to that really quickly because my, my team does a lot with like a figuring out who's using our digital collections we have like 2 million users a year. I don't know what the right number is but it's a lot and most of them are a complete mystery because of the data that we capture and don't capture. So one of the things that's been such a huge game changer was, was deciding that we were going to use our budget to fund embedded users. So, the, the artists and residents, I mean, we decided that creatives as users were like a key user audience for us that we wanted to invest in, but instead of doing you know like group. And focus groups and stuff like that I mean certainly those are valuable but there's just something so valuable in having a one year long relationship with someone who is trying to build something with your work. I mean with the with the collections that you have online. So that has been a game changer for us and kind of humanizing like who those users are of our digital collections and learning very deeply the types of barriers that they're encountering. Yeah, I know we have a minute left I'll say, Ben, I can't remember his last name I can see his face. There's a digital, a digital scholarship person who also uses our mark records to talk about the history of cataloging. He did a presentation. Also, I think it was like 2017 2018 where he visualized. And it's a lot of it is a reflection of like congressional funding right and then you also see kind of a tracking of like how technology and computation, like catalyzed the mark record. And yeah, it's, it's very cool as fascinating. Okay, well, thanks everybody for taking time out of your day to listen. I'm really sorry that I didn't have enough time for discussion but I'm interested in doing it if you guys are I'd love to talk more about this. Yes, thank you so much Jamie and yeah make sure you're subscribed to the arts and cultural heritage groups listserv because we'll definitely make sure to coordinate and send out any announcements through there. But otherwise, yeah, thank you all for joining us today. This was a really great talk. Thank you.