 Hello and welcome to e-fab one or Something one for something. I'm gonna guess we've got a meme fab. I don't know. It could be one three nine actually That's possibility to you people in the future. You have all this information. I don't Bastard. Yes. Welcome to e-fab. Yes Well uncharacteristically, we'll just jump right into intros. Hello free. How you doing welcome? Hi Hello me, huh? How you doing? I'm good. Hi. I'm aller. Hi. Hey rags. How you doing? Hi. Hi. Hey You know Nolan Batman the fuck doing here No, we love Nolan Batman here. Oh, yeah, that's true. Oh the first two at least are pretty good. Oh, sure Yeah, I'm sent. Mm-hmm. Definitely. So SK comics welcome to the your first e-fab. I believe How you doing? Thank you, sir. Thank you. What's up? What's what's what's your dealio? You you review stuff, right? Yeah, I do Relevant to the topic. I am working on a video Picking apart the winter soldier because I don't think that one holds up very well. So, you know what? I might be able to we can have a chat about that actually today. Maybe Yeah, you you in South Pole go back a little bit and Now now we're here through pure deterministic nature of the universe Mm-hmm. Well What I don't know if it's worth doing a little history like what what was the nature of your meeting for people who don't know? Oh my Do you want to tell them should I tell them? I Should probably start because I have a little bit more history to even before that happened. So Um Before that There's this individual known as Spidey panels who made a thread A Twitter party panels Yeah, he called himself spidey panels. All right, and I like a comic book panel. Okay, it's the official It's the official You spoiled it. Oh, it would have been a great reveal Edit that out. I think I missed what you just said. So you wrote it out. What's now? So He he made a pretty Dumb thread on into the spider-verse That I was dumb enough to go like oh well, maybe I should Revisit the movie and see if it holds up. I had different points than him But they were still wrong for why the movie didn't hold up I made a review on it. It was bad South Pole found it because some guy was he was he happened to be arguing with somebody about Logical consistency and the importance of it and somebody linked my video to try to Counter his standards or whatever South Pole came across it and he was like wow, this is this is a dumpster fire of a review. So He decided to cover it There was a bit of a back-and-forth Beforehand as well. Just you know arguing about some of the points. He made the review. Um, I I watched it. I tried to counter some of it What unlike Twitter or streams or whatever? Didn't go too well so then I That was like the first hour of it. I didn't watch all of it yet. I watched through all of it I'm like, yeah, you know, he makes a lot of good points here. I tell him. Hey, thank you for the feedback It's a lot of that was really helpful I'm down to do a discussion because there's still some things that I disagree with We talked about that on the South podcast Which I think a many of you have seen we had a little discussion on spider-verse. He was able to convince me It was pretty good. Definitely the best Spider-Man movie So there's that. Oh, yeah, I'm also missing something else. I Initially disagreed with him on Spider-Man 2. We had a we had a debate on that on income I definitely lost that one He was he was definitely right about the movie. I even got an early screening of it. I'm like, yeah Yeah, this is this is a pretty good video. He's right. So That's what got me into a group chat with him. We started talking a lot more often and Then what next? Oh, yeah with the anomaly ink thing, which I'm pretty sure People are aware of by now. Yes, I believe different people have different takes on all of it But we at e-fab but just like fucking hell It is worth noting that SK this gentleman here was basically That like a part of that drama to begin with he Started the back-and-forth with anomaly that resulted in anomaly losing his mind and it just got worse and worse and worse Damn well Um, I suppose that almost lines us up to present day before we get to that I was gonna say welcome South Pole. Hey doing welcome back. Yeah, I'm doing great. Yeah I'm I'm looking forward to talking about how amazing the winter soldier is it's totally I'm sure that it totally holds up I'm sure that you guys are all wrong and you're just trying you're just trying too hard to have a hot take You know, that's that's here's the thing. I definitely I don't like hot takes at all I think that hot takes are lame. I would never ever want to stray away from the popular opinion Yeah, you're very much a cold take kind of guy. I've noticed that about you absolutely So so cold that it can only be defeated by chicken soup No, no Anyway, so Where do I set the timeline net? It's like I don't know if I should go with Either our side leading to this or your side leading to this first I don't think that it matters which one goes first, but it's if you want to well How did you get here for me? Do you want to do that first? So when I was doing my endgame prep, I needed to rewatch a good portion of the MCU Including the winter soldier, which I hadn't seen for a while I watched it and I think shortly after that we had a conversation about our rankings of films in the MCU and I remember my thought was oh winter soldier is like is not as good as I remember And so I think on one of the e-faps To to to almost make that point. I think I said, uh, oh, yeah spider-man far from home is better than the winter soldier Which is a very controversial perspective to hold And then I think in the weeks after that there was like a lot of back-and-forth and arguing about it because that is a That is a spicy take And then I guess that eventually led us here, right because uh, you know, it just kept coming up So it's like well probably worth talking about it at some point right instead of just saying it well Yeah I've always been a little quiet on my praise of winter soldier And you found this is finally the episode where I can be a little more honest about it And I'm planning on being very honest by the time we reach the end of this depending on how everything goes That is I might even deliver a nuclear take one of those ones that burns children in their sleep You know just from hearing the take itself crazy stuff. So yeah, I remember when you were watching it I was like, oh Let's let's have a chat about winter soldier because I like the idea of anybody being like, you know we're the soldiers Everyone says it's great. So what's going on? I'm like Well, I guess we go with left to right so Rags not that you care to explain a log of history. They've just uh, what's what's your interaction with the two movies? Where you at? Where you coming from? Well, I was role-playing as an impartial moderator, but um If that even is necessary and we'll see but right now I would say that I'm I've seen I Actually didn't see the winter soldier at all until Somewhat recently it was one of those that had just slipped to the cracks for me And I hadn't seen it in the MCU, you know watched it, you know, I thought it was okay and I Had seen far from home I think shortly after it came out, I think I can't actually I can't remember I saw far from home before the winter soldier and I thought that was pretty good Definitely wasn't as good as homecoming, but it was it was on the I think it was on the good side definitely wasn't as strong But now that's where I you're interested to hear now while everyone's got to say I assume Yeah, we'll see which we'll see which one turns out to be the better movie Who knows maybe people will be shocked and surprised and horrified who knows So what's what's you guys either of you together or separately can go for how did this happen? What's going on here? Are you here? So I'm here because as some people know I'm Willing to push back against Fringies take saying that the winter soldier is worse than far from home now for the record Yeah, I think the winter soldier is pretty bad But I don't think it's as bad as far from home Both of them do share a lot of similar issues in regards to like stuff like you know plot armor plot holes contradictions But I would say far from home Does a worse job at avoiding those? helpful So when I first saw the winter soldier, I really really liked it. I thought it was maybe a little bit more overrated than like a little overrated Given how everyone was talking about it. Like I thought it was just it was a good movie And I enjoyed it a lot But a lot of people were praising it as like this is one of the best comic book movies ever made And I never really thought that way there were certain things that stood out to me like, you know A certain lightsaber in a certain computer That never really made sense to me and then I saw far from home like when it came out and Initially, I liked far from home a lot and thought it was actually like decent at least again not as good as homecoming, but not bad And I I saw it funny enough. I think I saw in theaters like four or five or six times And it really emotionally resonated with me because of what Peter was going through and which I actually happened to Find resonance given when the movie came out. I Won't go into details on that, but if anyone knows about my background, they'll know what I'm talking about most likely However, looking back having done a watch party with SK Evan and a bunch of other people Watching the film which I think that Evan and I had a brief call with you guys about You know Moller and Fringy afterwards and then most recently I rewatched it with my brother and We've discussed it at length fairly recently and I think that far from home is It's it so I've I watched the Winter Soldier with Evan like a week or two ago and would probably agree on Much of what you guys have to say But far from home. I find even less functional than the Winter Soldier There and I like both movies to certain extents like elements here and there There's a lot that I can pick out and I can pop in either movie and enjoy Casually subjectively, but I don't think that either movie holds up. Well, and I think that far from home's worse. That's all Okay, so I guess to clarify you guys both think that far from home is like utterly dysfunctional and that Winter Soldier isn't as dysfunctional I think that both of them are utterly dysfunctional, but far from home is less functional So I think we're dealing with different degrees of dysfunctional Yeah, okay, so but out of curiosity like if You guys were to like give far from home at number like right now versus our Winter Soldier. What would you what do you reckon? So I would say when your soldiers a three out of ten and Far from mom's like a two out of ten. I Pick the same scores Okay, so Far from home is as bad as that woman on our scale is basically your position and that Winter Soldier is like TLJ equivalent Which means I haven't watched that one. So we're we're the five of us already have you get like I'm assuming anyone Listen to this is probably like what the fuck the people defending winter soldier give it a three like well Looks like we got hot takes a bound everywhere because the goal I think At least on my like we can go through this with everybody I suppose I'll just go first like my interest is exposing winter soldier in this and I think far from home Was a really good opener because everybody's primed for her far from home. They're like I know what's wrong with far from home It's like if I can point out Similarly issues with the Winter Soldier perhaps we can open up What everybody is like the view on the MCU can be a little bit skewed I find but that's my main interest I am absolutely on board with being moved on any of this. I think this is this is gonna be engaging should be fun I don't know to free. Do you want to? Next door The problem is like I don't want to say that I've never said that like far from home is Good though. I don't think I have for a while I think I I think I liked it more when I first saw it and now it's kind of you know The more you think about it the more it kind of goes down I think it was this kind of similar for me that the reason why Saying far from like the winter soldier is worse than far from home is because it's like an immediate sort of People that's it. That is like that surprises people. I think and so I Think it's just that winter soldier is is quite overrated and a lot less so that far from home is overhated I wouldn't say that it's underrated but overhated more so and I guess the objective here is that if if I wasn't able to Make the case that far from home is better than the winter soldier at the very least The goal would be to show that it's not like sucks Obviously true that winter soldier is better than far from home or that winter soldier is like a great movie that it's that at the very least It's it's debatable Which one is is more sound? So that's that's basically yeah the goal for me I am I assume you guys the reverse, but if you wanted to make anything clear go for it I'm just I'm just curious. So as it stands right now, how would you score both of those movies? right now You know what I I'm not I'm not sure. I think we need to Talk about it so I can get my scale in order for these ones I would okay be around four to five for far from home But I'm definitely on both being moved winter soldiers in a dire position I've not given a number to winter soldier yet because I really don't know yet once we I need to test all of these arguments on people who are well, not me and If if we can confirm a lot of them and if we can Even maybe find more or whatever it'll it'll help me figure out where I'd probably sit it on a scale So I'm excited to find out where that might be Well, we've been preparing for this since we were told that this was going to happen and We're going to basically try to stick to the standard that I think that we've We've all been using to judge stories for a while now Hopefully this will go better than something like the twin perfect debate or we're just dealing with someone that's just not be called a debate It's just Debate kind of implies that that the two opposing sides are on somewhat of a similar wavelength But yeah We do you think that we have some some defenses against some of the criticisms that we have heard from you guys some like pushback sort of a Maybe there's a different way that this can be interpreted using the same evidence and it would be Just as reasonable to infer that sort of thing Yeah, I think what people should expect from this is first of all neither side is gonna get out all of their arguments at once You're gonna have to wait. All right, if any of us give away an argument you think is shit I'm talking to the audience right now then Wait, okay, it doesn't mean it's all of the arguments. It's just one don't do the thing we go They said this their arguments Let me get there Are you demanding that people watch the whole thing before they jump to any conclusions? I don't think people watch the whole of 84 and as far as I'm considered the best part of 84 was the latter half So, you know, um, I guess another winter soldier is not the best written movie Wow, it's pretty bad. I suppose another thing worth clarifying as well before we get started is Most claim like if anybody in the audience says what about isn't like the goal of this discussion is a direct comparison between these two movies So, um, I don't think for the most part that what about isn't will apply to any like well What about this in in the other movie? However, if there are deflections to like movies that are Not part of the MCU or even films that are in the MCU that will not like related to the discussion then We this is probably gonna be a little bit of tangling right because it might be that someone's like I'm trying to say this is really bad Whether or not the other one exists in this moment and the other person might be like I'm trying to say the other one is worse than it for this though, you know, that can happen I like to quickly at ask though. What if One side makes a defense that actually contradicts Something that they've said like a similar criticism about something else It's valid to say that contradicts something that we've said in the past about right That well, that's what about ism though How is that wait? How's that? What about what about isn't to deflect to a argument that somebody made to a different thing In an unrelated discussion to say that your arguments are inconsistent But in relation to different things that kind of is what about ism. So is that what I did in my spider-man 2 video? Well, it could be technically applied if someone's it's really about the context So if someone said yeah, it's I want to now argue that you are a hypocrite versus I want to now argue This is good or bad like that's a change of subjects. What about ism technically speaking It would be valid Targeted at the arguer rather than like the argument that tends to be there Like if you really wanted to have that discussion, I suppose if if the other person's on board you can but it's just a attention Keep focused because it's because you wouldn't want it to be like wait But you didn't have a problem with this in T2 and then I'm like, oh well in T2, you know all this context You know why I just agree with that context. It's like, oh, we're on T2 now. We got it No, no, no, so we're not going you didn't find this an issue in this movie where we're like assuming something But it's like you made this criticism about this thing here, but you're defending it and like the winter soldier. Oh That that's that's total. I would say that that's more so worthwhile to explore because of the fact that works We're talking about these two movies. Yeah, we're trying to figure out the flaws and praises in these movies So that'll be relevant. I think so it's like I said, I I don't mind any comparisons of life Well, what about this in winter soldier or like what about this and far from home, right? That that makes sense because we're comparing these two movies Also So I saw a free knee on Twitter You compared a thing that we talked about and like the SK and I talked about in far from home do some happen in spider-man 2 So yeah, but but for the for the sake of the conversation. I figure it makes sense to start fresh, right? Like oh, yeah The topics start from just the baseline and then do our arguments from here rather than back and forth on Twitter stuff Well, absolutely. I'm just I'm just making sure like comparisons to Relevant superhero movies like that would also be a I I am going to personally try very hard not to reference Anything outside of the main to grow movies. Yeah other than these two movies Look, yeah, there's no way I don't think we're gonna be able to make a consistent rule right now in terms of when you're allowed to do it Let's just let's just go with the flow and You know, hopefully it works out Debates not typically popular on eFab, which is why This may never see the light of day. Who knows it depends. We've got so like a lot of people don't like debates So I'm the reason this is offline quote-unquote is We're gonna hopefully it's good content by the time we hit the end of it And then it gets released But it's also because it's gonna require everybody's consent at the end of this recording that should be included It would near the end be like, yeah, everyone's all good. You thumbs up something and We are over stacked on super chats more so than ever. So this would be another Potential stream where we don't get to them depending on how long it is who knows how long we go for I really have no idea and No chat means no distraction of any kind no effort to like have real-time reactions no input from them Whether it's positive or negative It's less a form of entertainment and more a super razor sharp focus on getting these references right and figuring out the answers and stuff And chat get to enjoy it regardless when it comes out assuming it does I was just clarifying why we are not Streaming it If this goes well, we could finally maybe be like hey debates aren't so bad, right? Right guys. No debates are gay. Oh, no Which I don't know if there's anything else to say that the one thing that we were gonna say was that Since you guys are the away team you if you wanted to start I suppose the format should probably be topic by topic and then we switched between films as in If you guys wanted to start with Anything from far from home Once we've covered that particular topic if you will we try and then bring one of ours in for winter soldier And maybe go back and forth like that that's the only format figure that might work because it's gonna be complicated Try and get everything in a strong structure, you know Yeah So Yeah So rags your profile pic That has the spider-man Remy logo So here's the thing I don't I don't know I I know and I don't know if it's possible to express how little I care Wow rags that shield is from civil war. That's not even the fucking correction fucking yeah Because I had to try and find ones that were big enough They were that they wouldn't look too blurry, but I had a lot of room to work with because it's getting you know Smooshed down to an icon and I'm like I just need a spider-man I just need a captain America shield and This needs to be on that cuz I because when I saw that I was in the middle This it just happened to me and this is rare that I'm not at the end. It just happens We have two S boys Yeah on one side of the debate So I ended up smack dab in the middle of the lineup how how wonderfully pleasant. Why are they on the wrong sides? Yeah, they are captain with a soldier is worse and no, we're right Well, it's unless they represent who we're attacking I guess yeah who's worse. Yeah It represents everyone's willingness to something switch and maybe superheroes don't make sense anyway, so it's fine But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's it's a spider-man thing. It's I don't mean All I was gonna say before that is yeah guys feel free to put your your best foot forward I guess like on what I guess you feel is our The you know strong point to lead with I guess I should have so so the format because I'm such an idiot This is like the most important part So Fringy and SK are going to be the main speakers I'm gonna be supporting Fringy where I can where I think you might be missing something or where I think And it might be at one point the Fringy's like let you know more I can take this one sort of thing and that's Southpaw's position too But for SK with rags mainly acting as like an umpire where he's just gonna be like hey bad argument Or hey, maybe repeat that one or hey, blah blah blah. You just Standard approach to making sure we're all on point. Hopefully Mm-hmm. Yeah with that off you go. I suppose Alrighty So Fringy, so I've seen you on stream says you said that Edith is the main detriment of far from home and That's why you would give it a six out of ten at the time. Is that correct? So Maybe that's something that I've said, but I'm not sure what I feel now So I guess let's start brash like what I guess what's your like main your biggest criticism of far from home Sure, so Edith is Allowed by the government in a post insight and post accords MCU like Tony was allowed to send these The satellite full of killer drones into space Like this is after project insight in the accords like how would this be allowed by the government? Problem is that it is very unclear at this point in the MCU What exactly the status of the accords or any of that shit is at the moment? But which I think there is something relevant to remember Which is that it's what about eight nine months since far since the end of endgame So like we don't know what process it had to go through with the Edith stuff In terms of though, you know flimsy. Oh, yeah But we don't know Would you would you at least agree like this is an issue in in the world building of this? Yeah I think I think I mean like I said, right Edith is one of the bigger problems with far from home Super flimsy, but I guess the other aspects of stuff to do with like In in the post endgame world, it's like, you know, what what exactly is like Tony's status in that in the eyes of the world? What's what is what is like the new perception regarding on his place in the world his technology and Who should be allowed to have it especially considering that apparently the Avengers don't even really exist anymore Hmm. So one thing I'd like to mention about Edith is that so, you know, like fear Tony had to give the glasses to fury, right? The glasses were given to fury. Yeah Yeah, yeah, so here's the thing like that would only be possible prior to the start of infinity war because When infinity war began, it's like, okay, Tony had to go to space. He had his little space fight On he was on Titan when the snap happened Nick fury was one of the snap victims And then he he came back in endgame and there's no way During the endgame battle that he gave him the glasses and had his discussion with him about it like that wouldn't have happened So it would have to this exchange would have had to have happened before infinity war Like I guess the will would would have to basically have like fury would be the one that's sort of Helping process Tony's will and like the Dissolution of his estate, I guess Well, that's yeah, he would yeah, that was his job Um, I I mean, it's reasonable to assume that it just went through stock industries, right? Well, there is a conversation that because fury says that Tony said Uneasy lies the head that was the crown stark said you wouldn't get that because it wasn't a star wars reference So that implies that they actually physically talk to each other about it in some way beforehand Or fury is just not telling him like what actually happened Um, but I didn't talk to each other person to person Or that it could have been written down Um, sure, but like if he was giving the glasses uh to fury, I would think you know That this exchange would have happened prior to to infinity war because that's the most that's the most probable way he could have given it to him It was as part of the will. I don't know like this could have could have just been something that he wrote Regardless, yeah, I would still say um, it's still an issue that uh, they don't really address why this is allowed Um, there was a brief mention in the part where misura is talking to his friends about how they found out That it wasn't going to get given to the defense department and that was okay or like that would they were You know, they didn't put up a fight against it Um, his tech problem is that we Well, maybe they did maybe that's why it took nine months The problem is that we don't know what the status of like all of stark stuff The tech or anything to do with the avengers is in the world at this point, especially post You know blip Right, but yeah, as you said earlier, it is an issue. So I'm I'm okay with moving forward I yeah, I I agree that it's it's flimsy. I think the problem is the end game Sets up a lot of problems in that regard. Yeah, for sure. Yeah um so Um, and I think you've said you've agreed with this on stream as for tony giving peter parker A device that can access an army of killer drones. You agreed like that was that was a problem, right? so uh From what I understand edith is like a broader defense network. So it's Like access to intel back doors into security systems and the drones and it's like giving it to peter it's like I could it's not implausible that he did he would but Like oh, you know Um, I would still say like, you know, uh with someone like peter parker. He's a kid obviously like if you just If you really want to give him like this, uh, that's really powerful tech. Um It's like that could kill anybody in with in order. It's like That's not really a safe A teenager is not really the safest hands you want to put it in if you go to I mean like someone like rodie Is a lot more qualified to to own the glasses. Um with that kind of stuff not peter parker Yeah, my the only thing I would do is if I like I had to steal man the defense would be That it's the idea of like Tony trust that peter is really good Like he he just really trusts in his capacity for good And so that's like the fundamental thing that drove him to give peter the glasses Not necessarily that he would use it right now maybe later on Um, or like the idea that he'll eventually, you know become something of a leader in the avengers But that's that's that's the the only explanation I could see that would you know like explain his motivations But still like yeah, they're you know, rodie is a is a good choice as well Sure. Okay. So you agree like yeah, there is work needed to be done for this It's it's it's it's like the other one, right? It's it's like, uh, you know, we're uh, we're teetering Yeah Another thing is like, okay, so if you had the drones this whole time Like well, I guess since around the events of avengers endgame then why didn't you use it in the final battle? Problem is that we don't have a clear idea on the time scale when it comes to the eat of stuff Like uh, because it's been nine months. So was the infrastructure in place before endgame or what like, I don't know Um, well, I would assume so because he would have given him like Um, I don't know. I guess because he gave him like glasses ahead of time and well, remember eat it There's a defense network that has other capabilities beyond the drones Right, but what I'm saying is like Yeah, okay. Yeah, I got on No, yeah Oh, uh, it was just the idea of like maybe I don't know. We don't know we we don't know like where the drones factor into the eat it part because eat it There's more broad than just the drones So either way like the film doesn't really do a good job, uh, establishing the timeline here Um, so I guess it's a question of could they have done a better job of establishing the timeline? Sure, but is where is the contra is it is it a clear contradiction? That's I guess the important part But Like is there a clear contradiction there with uh with the glot like, you know the nine long time span the glass is the fact that it's a broad network and The the the role that the drones play in that network Hmm. Okay. It's just that's all I'd say. Yeah Sure, and I think I would still say like regardless we want to call it a contradiction We want to call it unclear like they're still an issue present here Sure, but I guess it's just the the important thing is that a contradiction is a is like a significant issue Like a plot hole is a is it's like an impossibility Whereas a lot of this stuff is just like Just like maybe or uh fully fleshed out on its plane. It's fully. Yeah, which uh, yeah, yeah, sure again This this movie ain't like fantastic. That's for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah um, okay, so Next thing I wanted to bring up was that You know, so do you remember in spider-man homecoming where Tony had safety precautions in the the Karen suit where Obviously peter can't just unlock all the features at once. Um, the big reason is that he has uh instant kill Which is not a safe feature to have if you don't know how to use the suit. Would you would you agree with that? Yeah, of course Yeah, so the thing is with the edith glasses He doesn't have any kind of training wheels like featured for edith. It's just oh, here you go. You could you have all the features unlocked um What would be Tony's way of when he's dead curating the features that uh peter would have access to Well, I would assume that he would have these in place, uh when he's designing it. That's really important safety precautions Well, I yeah, but I guess what I mean is like does the computer say oh, you're done now Um now here's here it is Because I think it's easy to assume from the training release protocol that Tony would have disabled that himself when he felt that he was ready Well, the thing is is that uh in homecoming he's shown that he doesn't know like he's very unfamiliar with the features And then Karen notices this and says uh, you seem to be unfamiliar with uh With your features, uh, would you like to run a refresher course? So obviously there is some training in some way that needs to be done There's no training system whatsoever for peter using these highly advanced drones that could kill anybody on an order So, I guess there would be a couple of things of the one The idea is that Tony trusts peter and that the events of you know, like Homecoming and infinity war kind of demonstrated that to him, but it's still follow up on Well, uh, just so to follow up on that. It's also if the idea is that he trusts in peter specifically who would Why would he like who else would he trust to be the person to oversee what peter can or can't have access to in the network if he's giving it to peter What do you mean by that? So if if we assume that it's Tony who's able to disable things like training wheels protocol Who would he now that he's dead who's going to be doing that with with uh, with peter Uh, who's going to be monitoring what he does Well, you're saying like the features should have been locked off Who's the person who decides when and like which features should be turned on for him and where? Well, I would assume that the edith glasses would have a training system where he has to go through certain trials Kind of like what he does in homecoming where he's going through trials to learn how the suit works And then once he goes through all the trials that would be set up by edith's programming then Then he would unlock all the features But Karen didn't have trials. She was just off And then when yeah, but we can assume that Tony meant for him to have trials of some sort before unlocking all those features Oh, I mean trials that he would have been doing an overseeing right not the suit itself Um, well, I mean if he's able to program like a really smart ai that's capable of Determining whether or not he would be ready based on the trials. I mean, yeah, I think that's fair And it's like just giving him edith without any sort of instructions of like how to use it properly That's that's not like you that's an important safety precaution to to include it makes Tony start look pretty We need to work backwards then because if he trusts if he trusts peter fully Like if that's the reason why he gave him the glasses, then is it like then what what would be his decision in character, right? Um Well, I mean there there there obviously comes the idea, you know, what if he doesn't doesn't know how to use something? What if he is Uh, what if he makes a mistake? What if he accidentally sends a drone to to kill somebody almost like that happens in the scene? uh the bus scene Oh sure, like I so in terms of the bus scene and stuff. I'd I'd agree like the ui is Dumb right like the whole thing of he's a target. All right, send the drone. That's stupid Yeah, yeah, um Another thing I think is worth mentioning is that uh when peter talks to karen She says congratulations on completing the rigorous training wheels protocol and gaining access to your suit's full capabilities mm-hmm He hacked the suit so like we don't understand what we don't know what the we don't know what the training uh thing was at all Like how it worked. Well, well, let's say let's say he didn't hack the suit Okay, so what would he have to have done at least in in some capacity? He would have to complete some sort of Um training in order to gain full access. He has no training protocols at all for edith and that's really dangerous, especially given what edith can do I I thought so I thought we I thought we talked about this though, right like so it's like what when we when the the training rules protocol and in uh homecoming I Read that as being like binary like it's training wheels now and then Tony turns it off and then it's off As opposed to what it said that he had to complete it. So what was it that he had to complete? Well, whatever. Tony had in mind Like just going around being friendly Getting the friendly neighborhood spider-man right feet on the ground take it slow, right, but that's That doesn't teach him how to use the suit's features Yeah, so why you know what I mean like not what I'm getting that here is that Oh, sorry Oh, I guess I was just gonna say like are we going to assume that Tony's plan wasn't to take it slow and maybe like open up certain features to peter with time Yeah, so I guess it wouldn't be binary in the sense of teaching him certain things But like taking off the entire thing altogether He'd have to like well the thing is went individually, right? Well, yeah, but would you at least agree? Like there is some form of training that would that he would require him to go through before unlocking all the features, right? I don't think that lines up with infinity war endgame though. Oh, yeah, that was what I was about to say This is before infinity war an endgame Right, but it's still important because uh, if peter doesn't know how to use the features of edith And he makes a mistake with it like he does in this scene. Um It's not a good like that's that presents a risk with Not providing any kind of safety precautions in case he messes up with them Sure, but I guess this is just dreaming that there is no safety Like there was no way that peter could say hey, uh edith run me through it Well, I mean, I think that should just be a thing that's built into it Uh, but tony trust peter So he trusts him probably to actually like look into it He I imagine that he didn't think that that bus scene was gonna happen In the movie Yeah, because spider-man has insta kill mode Accessible to him. That's a pretty dangerous mode Can you agree? Yeah, but he made sure that like there was training to accompany that Yeah, that was locked behind the training wheels protocol Which was a really really smart move of tony to do because there's all kinds of stuff that Spider-man could do with that suit that if he doesn't know how to use it yet Um, things could go awry like the bus scene. Yeah, so you're suggesting that he learned All of these things between the movies rather than tony just lifting the restrictions off after he proved himself in homecoming I mean, it seems like it's a bit rushed for uh, peter to Um prove himself to be capable We're small capable of um wielding something like edith responsibly after just the events of homecoming Well, it's infinity war and end game But tony wouldn't have been able to know about what peter was going to do in infinity war But but he came back to earth and then was alive for five years. Yeah um, but I guess that's true. Um, so But then but peter was dead. So tony, uh, he must have amended his will to Give edith over to a dead person Well, I remember hitting them. I was telling everybody back. So he could have done it then Oh, I suppose that he could have done that I would imagine that he did Uh, because he knew what he was going to do with snap. So, you know, would you say that the most reasonable and charitable interpretation is that he amended his will Um before they went back in time and he knew okay, we're about to attempt to bring everyone back I would imagine so given that he did his little recording for morgan, right? So he knows that he might die. Um, and he knows what his goal is. So Yeah Okay, fair enough Yeah, uh, like I like I said, I I uh, I agree that the edith stuff is is uh, is flimsy, right? Like that bus scene is really stupid I agree. Yeah Um, I guess it's the idea Sorry, you gotta No, no go for it. Oh, uh, how consequential, uh, do you figure the bus scene is to how the story plays out? uh Is isolated stupidity or does it actually like affect peter's character? Wait, what what what about his character would have been affected? Why would it affect? Yeah Uh, possibly his motivation in giving edith over to uh, to quentin beck What he feels that he screwed up yeah especially when um fury scolds him and back then basically plays good cop after fury, uh, basically rips him a new one I mean, I think it's safe to say that he might feel that he screwed up just by trying to use edith to delete a picture from that phone And then like you add the extra stuff on top. It's like am I using this responsibly, right? I think it's I've always seen is the quentin earned the glasses from peter more so than peter relinquished them because these are responsible um, I think that the the screw up would have been the fact that brad almost died not that he Would have used edith to delete a picture that brad took By the way, the circumstances that led to brad taking that picture in the first place are all bullshit That's not offering you said by the way I'm i'm i'm aware. I just wanted to like make make sure that we were all in agreement on that The circumstances leading up to him finding peter were bullshit yes why Um, so you've got dimitri, uh, who is the bus driver who was a shield agent who was posted I feel that this is a good time for us to Well, hang on. I feel this is a good time for us to pull up the scene because Um, a lot of this will require some some visual references Sure, so let me yeah, let me pull up a time stamp for this It's gonna be uh at around 36 Sorry 37 24 Yeah, okay So here's the thing. Um, are we all there? Um, well, I'm just scrolling through it as you as you guys talk over it Okay, just yeah, you can explain the point. I gotta pull up Sure thing. So they they leave the bus um Mr. Dells or whatever tells them we're heading to the toilets and we see that a line is headed to like Uh, the the right of the bus and they're all headed to the toilets. They believe like that's where the bathroom is All right Do we agree there? Sure Okay, so then Dimitri stops Peter and he tells him to enter the room that's right in front of him Um, and that's just like that's directly right in front of him. So that's You you agree like those are completely different directions, right? Yeah Yeah Okay, so when brad enters, uh, when he enters there, um, like casually just on his phone He sees peter and the agent there. He says sorry. I thought this was the bathroom That was the justification they gave for why he was there so Oh, exactly does that line up if the bathroom If he believed the bathroom was in a completely different direction that he was already walking Presumably like I always interpreted this as brad was following peter, but he's trying to come across as it was an accident um, I don't think so because Because he remember he's explicit. He's like, I know you're after mj He wants to try and find peter doing something It could very well be that he was trying to get a photo of peter on the toilet or some shit because he's like Remember he's like Trying to do anything he can to sabotage Sorry Like peter on the toilet. I don't think that's gonna really Help him out. That makes him look like a creep. Honestly. I agree. That's why they say that in the film if you remember Right, but like from brad's perspective, I don't see how that would be embarrassing like, oh, you took a picture of a dude Taking a dump like I mean, I don't know if like this happens all the time in high schools Hmm. Oh like why would that? Why would you think it's funny mj would actually It's funny. That would be the logic would be like, oh, look at this. Have you seen the in-betweeners? That was like a joke in the first episode that they take a picture of will taking the shit Okay, but like if he's trying to sabotage peter's uh attempts to get with mj. Why would brad taking a picture of him on the toilet Do that so remember the broader points is he's trying to Find dirt on peter because he wants to get mj and he's a bit suspicious of peter. That's like everybody takes a shit I think I think I don't know why you're trying to use logic when this is Children trying to prank each other and humiliate each other. It's like, yeah, they don't really operate that that much on that way Well, yeah, but like I'd expect that they Know basic things like yeah, everybody takes a shit if you get a picture of somebody shitting in the toilet That's not really gonna help you out Is that what's being debated is whether or not people Fuck with people Yeah, do this Which they do I don't know, but even then when brad was was entering the room Um, he was like looking on his phone while he was going there So it doesn't even seem like he was expecting to find anything It just seemed like I doubt he was expecting to find peter with his pants down and some like friends Right. So that that goes back to the whole well. He thought it was the bathroom in there Well, wait, so I what is it hard to believe that as he was following peter He got a notification on his phone and checked it Um, well, I mean he would if he would well, let me pull up the scene real quick. Um Okay, so if he was following peter then Hold up. I'm just going through the scene real gross. It looks like you said Also, none of these uh defenses are Accounting for the fact that you have dimitri a shield agent posted outside being the lookout and he's seeing he would be seeing What is dimitri going to do? He would he wouldn't want He wouldn't want brad barging into Into an in where there is official shield business being conducted And like imagine having to pay to go into this room and then dimitri runs in front of brad And says you can't go in that room That's go. Well, he doesn't have to go in front of me and say hey, you're not allowed He can say hey, you're allowed in that room. I also don't know why we were assuming that he absolutely saw brad Why wouldn't brad try and account for the bus driver? So he's standing guard. Well, you would think that he would Well, he was keeping watch of like uh, just in case nobody would go in there Especially if brad saw the bus driver like tap peter to make him go a different direction Uh, I'm watching the scene now and no He's walking away as like he's he's out of the frame as uh, as dimitri does that You're right. He is out of the frame. He he walks away But if he's out of the frame That he can't see that happening. I think that that needs to be actually shown Can't influence someone living I I mean, I feel like that needs to be established to actually happen in the movie But you're establishing that it didn't happen I think it's up to the movie to establish that he that brad would have seen it As far as we see brad's heading towards the bathroom with the other students with his back completely turned to dimitri and peter Yeah, so then it just follows through what we so you see what happens And now you have to infer events that could possibly lead to it if you consider it an impossibility Then I feel like that's on your end not the films Because you're saying it's a hole It's a contrivance or yeah contrivance but like how Yeah, for clarification southpaw. What is it that you believe is the contrivance here? So we have peter going into a different building than these other students are going One of those other students includes brad brad then somehow makes his way into a building where we do like We do not like they don't show that brad sees peter going into this other building Suddenly brad shows up in that other building when we know that there is a shield agents that is on lookout making sure that peter goes into that building Why is he not making sure that no one else goes in there when there's shield business Like happening in that room Um, there's just I don't know why we wouldn't infer he just couldn't catch brad before he did And also what fringy said just it's gonna be really super awkward to grab him and be like you can't go in there Well, he didn't seem to really make an attempt to stop him. Well, we don't know what happened out there Well, I mean brad is like a security risk now and they're basically Doing nothing about it What could they do about it? What would you want them to do? Um, well at least talk to peter about it and say hey, you you got either right like it Can't you just clear like what is what is there? You don't seem to care about it. That's the thing. They don't even seem why would he doesn't even seem to notice Why would they know what edith does also remember they're not Their secrecy is tied to peter's demands. They don't actually give a shit Like peter wants to be secret They don't care that's true. Yeah Um, I wouldn't that's not exactly the case because right afterwards like she literally pulls a gun on brad So that implies in some way that they do care that. Yeah, he knows about this That's just a potential threat. She's obviously like High strung as fuck, especially when he gets into the room. She's like almost nuts Well, it's like, okay. Well, I think Shield clearly if they're doing this whole secret operation then they do care to keep this whole thing a secret It's not a secret if they're doing this on behalf of peter peter snake. Yeah, right, but they still care about maintaining secret. That's the thing I'm not sure that you can confirm that Uh, well the fact that they're trying to do this whole secret You can say wait what but literally like they don't care that much if peter is known to be spider-man even They only do this as a courtesy Well, I mean if they're doing it to begin with I think yeah, they actually do they're at least trying to do so Wait, so you don't think that shield cares about doing this in a way that's secretive They don't care if peter's friends find out that he's trying to save the world Then why do they make a whole new suit for him? Like that's the whole Right, they want to go with peter's demands, right? They want to give him the courtesy of trying to help conceal his identity Right, so then they just stop giving him the courtesy. They just stop caring So like it's not a binary. It is not a priority. They just stop like it's not a binary Well, it's not a Wait, did you say priority or binary? So it's not they do zero don't care my bad But what I was saying was their top priority is save the world Whether or not peter gets outed on his identity is like less relevant Because I mean of course they wanted to take him through the very least if they're trying to be Right if they're trying but if they're trying to be secretive about it It's like you would still think that they would at least attempt to maintain the secret The fact that they're doing what to begin with means they care about these precautions I feel like I will say it's probably going to be harder to keep the secret If dimitri comes takes your phone deletes that picture from it like shit Well, I mean the thing is dimitri should have stopped him from entering to begin with and say Hey, you're not allowed in there. They should have also they should have locked the door to begin with as well Well, this isn't even peter doesn't even know this place And he just got in he comes in right after him We don't even know that dimitri could have stopped him and stopping him is very suspicious Which is something that you were arguing they need to avoid well, yeah, but Letting him into a building where peter is with a shield agent and there's that's what wasn't going on is worse than that Even if it is suspicious, we want to let's look at the two options one You tell brad he can't go in there and then he doesn't go in there and he might be suspicious of you Or he sees the shield agent with peter it with his pants off. That's worse So well, so what we know is that what brad takes away from it is oh peter's trying to hook up with a european chick That's what brad also dimitri doesn't dimitri doesn't know that When brad walks in there that peter's going to have his pants down For all he knows brad could overhear the shield agent say something that's important or see peter in the night monkey costume That will compromise his identity That they're trying not to do you as a courtesy peter's been in there for like 10 seconds. I doubt that's happened Is this like but would you say just like usually so Yeah, sorry. I'm just you can keep going. I'm just going through the scene right now Oh, I I don't really have anything. Um, yeah, we're gonna go one by one of course Close to 45 seconds Um, so yeah, it's 40 Two seconds that they're in there. It wasn't 10 Excuse me for not knowing the time off by heart. I was just well, oh, yeah, I I understand I understand, you know memory. We don't remember the whole thing He was in there for like 42 seconds and what southpaw said, you know, what if they're talking about important business What if they see him in the night monkey costume like that's still possible within Uh that time frame Well, but this all assumes that dimitri made a decision I'm sorry. What what do you mean? It assumes that he made a decision It's just that do you you guarantee that dimitri saw brad go in Well, I would assume that he's keeping guard uh of the of the door because that's the basic precaution You want to take so nobody gets in Well, yeah, but second guard of us And lots of things can sure easily happen that would mean that he wouldn't have spotted brad go in Especially if brad is looking to not be seen We do not want to like then Like be a lookout though for this building well sure, but like lots of things can distract anyone from anything Like the the teacher could easily just walked up and asked him anything and that gives brad the opportunity Right. So where's right? No, that um That is hold up. I need to let me pull up the scene real quick just to make sure um Because I mean I I'd be okay with okay That's something in the in the film that you know confirmed that dimitri got distracted That there's nothing in there, which means this is writing the film for the film Um, well, um, is that more? Hold on. Why why would I like to bring something up? Oh Okay. Yeah, sure Yeah, so um mauler on your uh on your uh thing Uh go to 39 20. Okay. If you want to just describe the image instead because I It'll be easier on my end. What am I so we see uh, mr. Dells and mr. Harrington leaving the bathrooms So they didn't leave like they were still in there. They wouldn't have talked to dimitri about anything Wait, what sorry, what did you suggest? Uh, this is after Um, I'm just trying to get a timeline because like so what I'm referencing is Yeah, yeah, so so. Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, well Why have you assumed that they were in the bathroom the whole time rather than They would have gone like you're saying they went straight in and didn't come out until later When anything could have happened. Um, well, I'm just Well, I'm just assuming they stayed to wait for the kids and then they just left, um afterwards Yeah, so I guess like they were saying let's get back on the buses I don't find it at all implausible Entirely that this scene plays out as it did that brad is suspicious of peter was keeping an eye on him Goes around and then opens the door and sees him there Because obviously the response is just writing flaws for the film rather than writing for the film But the problem here is that they're not taking bait. Oh, uh, if you just uh one second before we proceed, um This seems to be the longest section that we've talked about so far In terms of uh in this discussion Just keep that in mind as we go forward if it's Super consequential to the film because a lot of times getting devoted to it I'm fine if y'all want to talk about it. Just keep it in mind as we you know as you proceed Go ahead. Yeah, I think that's fair. Um I mean, so if if you think go for it just um, well for reference, I'll concede contrivance, but not whole Yeah, yeah, I don't think that's fair. I think that's fair. I don't think I was calling it a whole. Um, it's just I'm trying to think of an example of Something similar from a different movie. Um Where people can go. Oh, well, can't you just uh, you know assume or infer that uh These certain things happened off-screen. It's like Yes, but they would have to actually happen on camera like Not everything has to happen on camera That's not what I said That is not what I said. I can give an example start. I can give an example real quick like, um So with spider-man 2 where he he leaves the dude to get mugged like can we infer? Oh, well, he tried to look for a pay phone tried to call the police And did that so to clarify on the on the whole thing It's like so generally when it comes to the inference, it's like how much we stretching I guess to to infer something that also. Yeah, you know huck's firing at the radis is a contrivance. It's not a whole He's not firing at it. Sorry firing at the base. It's a contrivance. It's not a whole. Excuse me there for a short. Yeah um What we would cite with your example with spider-man 2 is character assassination He wouldn't have made the choice to go and find the police Why wouldn't he have because spider-man's core trait is to help people when he has the power to do it He doesn't need superpowers to help someone with a mugging Well, they could have a gun or a knife right butter Um, I don't think spider-man's gonna. Okay. He's gonna help them Especially when he's that close to the public I mean if he gets shot or stabbed and he doesn't have his powers like that's not a good idea that would suck like like okay, so Let me thank you. So are you okay with like in that movie where the the police when the police aren't going after Um, the thugs and he's just eating the hot dog. Do you see that as character assassination? All right, why are we on spider-man 2? Well, I mean, I'm just getting I'm just establishing a baseline here real quick Um, I unfortunately, I'm not quite sure which scene that is Uh, where he's eating the hot dog and It's the raindrop sequence You you said he He sees wait, are we talking about the mugging or we're talking about someone else? Like I'm just asking would you this is before the mugging uh the the part where he sees the yeah This is before the mugging where he sees the he doesn't have powers at that point there, right? Correct And he doesn't know what can you do either is that No, but what can he do in that first one though? Um, well, he can't really do anything. That's the thing right so There's a difference then and what I'm saying here is that taking your level of um inferences that you're uh That you're applying to far from home. We can say okay Well, isn't it plausible that the two muggers in the street had a gun or a knife because if that's the case Sorry, why did you bring up the uh, why'd you bring up the first one the police chasing? Uh, the reason I brought that up because you would agree like that's not character assassination because he can't have his powers He can't Right and I would say that applies if they have a gun or a knife as well Okay, but they didn't so And even if they did I don't know that it's in character of him to just give up So I think you don't actually know whether or not they did like they're beating up the guy They could be concealing weapon though. We dial it back a little bit So like with the police thing he he can't help He isn't he can't help because he doesn't have powers but in the mugging scene Right, if he can just go in and fight them. What if they haven't have powers though if they have No, what I'm saying is that he has no means of possibly helping with the police's situation because he has no powers Whereas he has means to help you might just get hurt No, he would here's the thing if they have guns or knives Here's the thing here's the thing if he goes up to them and tries to do something Boom you're getting shot or boom you're getting stabbed. You can't do anything at that point No, so I'm sorry. What I'm saying here. What I'm getting here is that if we can just infer Hold on. Um, so with the police chase scene What can Peter do? Um, he can't really do anything effective the best So all you can do is like what run after all the cars like he's just gonna do that because that's what spider-man would do Is like run after cars when it's totally fine So what he's arguing right, right. I agree with you. That's right. I agree with you. Okay, so I'm saying is taking that You're saying that the gun is comparable, right that that like that the So I guess what I'm getting at the reason there is nothing that peter can do in the car chase scene That is not the same as somebody has a gun in that scene. He could do something Well, no, but he might die if yeah, also we have calling for help on backup too, by the way correct He is he is three meters away from the public Yeah, there's a lot of other people. Okay, but if he calls for help But here's the thing like here's what I bring so if they have guns, okay And they he says help they're beating up this one guy. They can just pull their guns and everyone's leaving Yeah, uh, that would be my own character. I agree right though So the thing is the thing that I'm getting at here is like, yeah, I agree that him not going after Uh, the criminals that the police are chasing like yeah, he can't do anything What I'm saying is that with the level inference of oh, well, maybe Demetri had to talk with The teachers which is not on screen at all. Okay. Well, we can apply this to that mugging scene That's considered character assassination, which I agree is assassination But I would not defend it by saying oh, well, maybe they they had guns or knives You can would have made Peter you're welcome to defend it that way I think that's fair. But the problem is he doesn't do anything. I don't think Well, no, it's totally fair to assume muggers have guns and knives. You guys just said that earlier and I agree with you Yeah, I thought right but yeah, that's true So, um, right brother It's sk. Let me let me uh Bring this up real quick. Sure. Sure. Um, so my brother was talking to me the other day When a small child falls into a swimming pool or somebody of water and you're the only one there You have an absolute responsibility to jump in there and save the kid. Um, don't think that's unreasonable when there's like 10 15 other people around though That responsibility It's kind of like it's not a hundred percent on you. Not when you you're the only one who's noticed Um, but if other people have noticed though, yeah, I agree, but In the scene we see with him on the street Nobody else has even noticed this happening And that's that's the besides you still call attention to it I think if you're gonna save the the child that fell into the swim pool, you call attention to it Totally Yeah, so I just don't think the spider-man 2c will ever work Yeah Well, I think the the idea is it's not a comparable inference, right? Like that's the gist of it It's not comparable to what's happening in this scene. I would call it a hole rather than a contrivance It is a hole that peter acts the way he does in that scene Well, unfortunately, you know, I've I've seen many people Argue well, he ends up running into the burning building to save the girl. Yeah, that's great. It's like, yeah, eventually he helps eventually So because because not I don't want to deviate but like with great power comes great responsibility The reason why that's so meaningful is that it applies to everyone at all times It's like your power level is equivalent to you can help people. It's not just if you spider-man Um Should we revamp? Well, I was gonna say, uh, yeah, I'm sorry if you guys want to hang on to say so Well, I was just saying it might be worthwhile to say here is that Oh Real quick, I was just gonna say, um, I wonder if it would be Fair for us to jump to winter soldier for a bit after whatever you're gonna say Um, sure. I think that's fair. Um, what I want to get out right now is like I don't think we're gonna agree on this point and this is like we're pretty much like a stalemate right now So I think it's I think it's fair to move on to the next point. It's always there. Okay. Yeah, so, um shell I guess uh, so In terms of categorizing issues in uh in winter soldier, I suppose it would be a good idea to start with the I would say like the the most apparent immediate uh scene that like kind of Significantly damages that movie which is the fury assassination scene um So When he's in cap's apartment No, no, no, so before that the the one called the fury action scene. Oh the car chase the car chase Okay, um, because because yeah, there are there are a couple issues in far from home before that point But um the fury assassination attempt attempt is like the the clear break where everything starts to fall apart um I guess, uh, I guess before we start like what are you what do you guys thoughts on the on the scene as a whole? I think you would have to categorize it Very very bad disastrous. Yeah, it it's a fucking dog shit action sequence. Honestly. Okay. Um, all right, so I suppose uh For for the for the people at home a brief recap of what happens in that scene So this is this is after fury's talk to our pierce. So he is in his car his very strong car um Some cops look at him on the way we were he's driving uh elsewhere and then the cops pin him down fake cops So a 30 fake dc cops they pin his car down Uh try to shoot down the windows then they get like a big battering ram and try to break it down And the window integrity gets to 1% And a gun pops out and then fury shoots all of them and then drives away big action sequence happens And then winter soldier is standing in the middle of the road that fury turned on to Uh blows up his car flips and he uses a lightsaber device to dig a hole Which escapes out of and winter soldier doesn't pursue him. That's the broad overview Um, it's a disaster. Um, it it breaks the movie It breaks the movie like the movie is broken up from this scene on So I would agree with like most of your criticism here The one that I don't agree with is the one about, you know, the winter soldier not just jumping in the hole Um, and then going after nick fury. So here's the thing Well, we can wait. Well, wait. That was that was the summary. So we'll go from the beginning. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah Uh, the initial problem as I see it is um Why did they even allow fury to get into this car if they were planning to kill him? Um, this is the most safe that fury is Ever in this car compared to any instance possibly the most public way to assassinate him too. Oh, it's very public. Yeah. Yeah Um, uh, the the idea of getting 30 fake dc cops Is that not going to cause any problems at all for like hydro 30 dc police officers killed one of the major figures of a Defense department of the united states government And they're not even real you can't be registered. They're not even they're not even real. Yeah Um, and of course the the most glaring one Why didn't you just send winter soldier in at the beginning to blow up the car if you're going to do it in this car? Like we're not going to do it beforehand. Why why was he not there at the very beginning? So there's no way that hydra could, uh, cover this up basically Get another couple up or I think it's gonna cause them significant issues would be able to cover this up cover what up sorry To cover up this, uh, public assassination that like if you've got Um, so I'm not saying that this is uh, like a solid defense But I'm trying to offer some sort of pushback so that you can demonstrate like why it's why would be a weak defense? Okay? um, so You've got hydra. That's in control of shield at this point, right? Uh, hydra is in part of shield and it has control of the insight program. Yeah And other every every apparatus shield I have to say. Yeah, but it's not clear But I mean surely if they if they were able to cover up, um, other killings that they did, uh, there's a particular one that I think that Mahler is aware of that. I I'm referring to that. I'm going to just uh, oh sure But down low you'd agree that this is Catastrophically public compared to that. Oh, it's very it's very public compared to that. Yeah, absolutely Um, I don't see that you could ever cover it up 30 dc police officers killed their head of a defense department But does that mean that those uh, those 30 fake police officers were hydra? Oh, well, this is what I was going to say I'm not entirely certain of how everything will roll out these people will be on some form of a record and they'll be Uh, if they are found and interrogated or whatever, I don't know exactly how this all would end But um, I also find it fascinating the winter soldier is just standing in the middle of the street The the guy who no one can confirm necessarily exists He's right there. Yeah, what I would say in broad daylight Yeah, what I'd say about that is I think that's the thing that makes this really hard to cover up the fact that Like he's supposed to be a ghost story and he's just oh right out in the middle of the street Just casually assessing No one pulls out the cameras. Yeah um But then we we proceed because there are more issues. So um So Sorry, um, well, I just want to go ahead. So the thing with the with the fake cops, right? Um, that could be anyone it is not necessarily high. If you want to clarify is in control of it doesn't bring down hydra I I think I agree with you Yeah, that's that's that's the main defense that i'm or the main point of that particular defense My criticism isn't that hydra will be brought down. It's that they're incredibly incompetent to have done this Yeah, I think there's there's certainly maybe like there's a there's thousands of better ways to kill off nick fury than this that are less public Yeah, well the funny thing is they keep power leveling in the scene like every single thing they bring out on top of what they've brought out Was better than the thing they had at first and it's just like why did you? Yeah, why didn't you just sort of a plan a plan b plan c plan d Wow plan a should have been winter soldier just blows off the cart. Well plan a should have been to kill or just even one of them You can't keep going backwards If the logic is to treat fury as you know, but he's betrayed the state He organized a mission of miss french mercenaries to attack a shield ship He's he's trying to do it for money. They can kill him in shield hq and cover this up just as easily as they would Blowing up with 30 fake cops in the middle of the town I don't really do the elevator scene But with fury because remember they make they make cap like they start a manhunt for cap They can do it for fury easily. Yeah totally Um, but yeah, so there's that and then um, so they they shoot the bullets That doesn't really do anything they get the big batter in a ram However, later we see that the lightsaber fury has is strong enough to cut through the car that is bulletproof Um, is there any reason why these guys don't have lightsaber that they can use? Um, if they did that that would expose that they would have gotten that from shield because that's shield tech um But they're cool with sending in would that would that do that when it's just all it would be In because if you remember that that is already in the scene Right in the car that's already happened now So whatever happened consequentially as a result of that What i'm saying is like the crime scene still has that with how the scene runs and I don't I don't think shield will have trouble Dealing with like what are they gonna say like does anyone even know that that's shield tech like definitively What the the the lightsaber that fury has? Yeah, you're like who and even if they did what does that prove everyone knows he works for shield and what sorry Let me clarify. Um, so if one of these guys uses the lightsaber to get in and kills him Um, and then a crime scene investigation is like wait they broke in using like super heat And like I don't know how do they tie that back to shield definitively Well, they wouldn't be able to tie it back to the police. That's for sure Um, it would it I mean it would be a giveaway that they got their hands on something that shield does have Well, so does ian man, right that a lot of people I imagine Strucker probably does There's been aliens that have invaded. I don't know that you can tie it back In fact, I would say that you can't perhaps like, you know, you know the ultra creative weapons Well, we know that vulture in this period of time has been creating weapons that are able to cut through things Like is it aliens invaded it's gonna be hard Exotic and so that's true. Yeah, so I think like in the world of the mcu where like technology is modern It's like, yeah, there's probably crazy people out there that have their hands on Really like hot lasers that can cut through a lot of things. So Yeah, they can cut through this car that's like basically invincible That it took like 10 batter and rams to cut through to break the glass But you have that and then um, also, uh, when when the lightsaber cuts through fury's car It's also its armor has been Like the integrity of its armor has been heavily compromised by all the stuff It's been happening to it in the scene. Uh, sure the roof specifically though And also it doesn't just cut through the car. It cuts through all at the same time And doesn't seem to be halted by the car. I'm saying Yeah, and don't worry. We'll get to the hole. We're not even there yet. So um Uh, fury's like whites. We're gonna shoot when the window integrity is 1% if it had just gone to zero percent He'd be dead. It would have shattered and I would have killed him Yeah, he somehow knew that it was gonna drop to one or at least he hoped Yeah, and not so he could just well wait, uh, wouldn't he have just started firing as soon as the window was shattered? Um, it takes so it goes window integrity 1% and it's like now and then it takes second for a thing to pop up So like if it just broke they would have just started killing him to be honest with you I'm gonna change the criticism to um, he probably should have just died regardless Because there's so many people aiming at that window the second it smashes they fire He somehow manages to shoot all of them before they shoot him Sure. Yeah Um, and and so there's that and yeah, none I wrote it. I wrote it down none of the cops shooting for some reason question mark There's some there's some sketchy plot armor in this scene. Yeah. Yeah. So so once he drives away referring to for like them not shooting Um, so when the glass breaks, nobody shoots him Like they'll just run away and get shot nobody manages to squeeze off a shot and kill him and that there's like 30 cops out there Nobody gets him Check the scene real it's plot armor. It's it is like it is hardcore plot armor that nobody manages to shoot him I agree when you have like this Absolutely. Yeah, I'm looking at all that's it's it's sorry. It's really bad really bad So we got all that so he drives away and fury first port of call is not to immediately contact Tony Stark or Steve Rogers or maria hill or like anybody To say hey, I'm being a target a target of assassination get help I think Tony is uh, he says give me agent hill communications array is damaged Oh, well, he goes for him. I'll have foreign in his pocket though. That's actually so I think you're referring to earlier when he calls hill I was gonna say that's what I was but you're right. He should have a phone Yeah, where's his phone? He doesn't yeah Yeah, I don't know. It's just um, in fact, actually he does have a phone when he goes to cap's apartment Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, so he had a phone so he should have used that shrunk or someone Um, and if the logic is it's too hard to drive. It's like, well, he could just put it on speaker and then You know what? Well, I mean auto drive, you know I like the idea of him calling Tony and he rushes in to save him and then they have it all could drive back Yeah, but um and also Like just throughout that whole sequence. Nobody manages to shoot fury in many instances He's doing a lot of like leaning back in his chair and you just have to accept that nobody tags him But there's a lot of times where they look like they have the clean shot and they just don't Yeah, even even if he was like lean back enough like his hands They're on the wheel and like the bullets are hitting pretty close to the wheel. So it's like if they hit his hands It's like it's it's game over Well, the car can drive it for him, but but um, right It would still be game over because you're right. It would be game over basically Um, so we got that and then after he beats all the guys he shouldn't be able to beat He turns on to the road the winter soldier happens to be on Wow bad luck, I guess Just to clarify it's an intersection, right? Like he could go one of three directions and he ends up going down the one the winter soldier is already on Yes, that's right. I think that the the way to fix this particular part I'm not saying that this improves the scene at all It would improve the scene if they did this instead, right? Like what we have right now is bad It's a very simple fix. They just don't have him do that turn Have him keep going down the road that he was going straight on for a while and we could infer that uh Whoever these guys are communicated. All right get the winter soldier Onto the head. Yeah, I can agree. That's I guess so that's better It's better, but still they turn left it's yeah But I guess there's other things like what a fury had like you turned and gone the other way Does that like make it then what well the idea is that he's headed down this particular street So to dispatch the winter soldier to this street where he's already headed down There's more likelihood of him going straight than turning left or right So, I guess if I were Hydra, I wouldn't want likelihoods. No, yeah I south was right. It would turn into a bit. Well, it's it's super lucky right now and it would just be Oh, you know, there's yeah Someone's barreling down the street. Are they going to go left right or forward? I'd be like probably forward Probably all right. Sure. Um, all I would say is to beat them at this is to just have winter soldier be there at the very beginning Yeah, or you have a winter soldier Well, it seems like the gun can be operated by anybody you just have all the person at each end But it would soldiers in the right place the right time Just you have one of those fake cops shoot the disc grenade and then boom it's done Or just have winter soldier shoot fury at his house. Yeah. Uh, I know it probably worked out But yeah, so so we have all that and then we don't do our cool action scene if if they do that so That's that's not my defense. I'm not I'm not sincerely saying that it's just Yeah, so don't worry. So then fury digs a hole. I don't know where the dirt went um, and I don't know how much time I want to spend on it, but this lightsaber fascinates me and always has um Now I don't know exactly how sewage systems work underneath But um, we assume he is cut down into one right because otherwise it's just soil There has to be so Yeah, yeah, so um, there's an angle cover very close to where uh, nick fury's car ends up you can say that that's convenient and I would agree Uh, oh, yeah, it was convenience. I was gonna say he he has to be in a sewer like we're okay with that It's just lucky that he was Yeah, it's lucky that that he's there. Um, but I don't know how thick the um, like how much soil there would be in that case it seems like it's Like about half a foot of concrete, which is nothing to scoff at. It's it's ridiculous that he um Cuts through this. Yeah, I'm not even highlighting a particular criticism yet. I am Simply wondering how it works Like it does it project? Is it literally a lightsaber and he cuts the square or is it something else? I think that that he cuts a square like um Like a lightsaber. It's not like a thing that he's digging with that's that's my that's the most reasonable thing That I can lean from what we have here And if so, what a great weapon people should just be using that in fights I mean the heat the heat it must generate would be in Someone's keyboard's very loud That would be in this case Yeah, um, so it it's it's it's crazy and then of course whiting went to soldiers to jump down and kill them Um, apparently there was a response for that so So the problem here is um, I have gone Well, so first off, um Given the way that the hole is cut given where it is Winter soldier would have to Probably awkwardly get into the car to jump down the hole unless they were to move the car Um, if he jumps down there, he does not know Like first off, he doesn't know what nick fury's physical condition is what nick fury is armed with Whatever gadgets he may have at his disposal if fury has uh Fought off these guys like he shouldn't have fought off to be clear Um, and then after having his car flipped over he's done this I would be and I were like winter soldier. I'd be like, what the fuck is this guy made out of I'm not jumping down a dark hole without any reconnaissance Um, especially if I'm like the most valuable asset that these guys have Um, I would probably want back up to arrive first and be like, hey, let's send like a couple of uh Low level goons down there first. Um, so that if fury is say waiting to get a shot on me down there They get shot first and I know that there's a threat down there And if um, there's no no one gets shot. I know it's safe and I'll proceed Do you feel that he operates with that level of safety in each of his action scenes? Um, no, but it is a smart thing to do. Um regardless, it's the conscious way to do this To be clear, we think that bucky does a lot of incompetent things in the action sequences. So But we don't want to criticize it for being inconsistent when he actually No, of course, you're right. Um, right. Um, I I'm not sure I'm convinced I feel like he might have maybe even try dropping a grenade down there or something Um, if we know that he knows that fury is a man He knows that he's injured like from this he flipped a car. He's got to be there's some level of injury So here's a big old thing to remember Go ahead Here's something else that's important to remember What if fury just like flees and goes to a safe house? You're fucked Like fury's gone. You've lost him Isn't that worth it? Yeah, but there's but there's another risk involved in that So what if fury is well distanced away and he has his gun ready So when the winter soldier jumps down bang, he's gone. That's the thing is uh The winter soldier has no idea of what's waiting down there for him So if you say he could throw a grenade down there, sure That's still going to take some time for him to do before he gets down. That's still going to give fury ample time to Run away and we don't know what the um under like like what these sewers look like how many corners there are How many corridors and hallways and intersections there are I do I do think you guys have a point with that It's just the he's got so little time I I totally agree. He's got very little time But when you've got tons of corners and different hallways that uh, could very well be down there and again I don't I would love if they showed a little bit of bucky following him down there And they just established why it would be so difficult for him to follow fury even with The little lead that fury had um But this is is um is the point of the is it is it an issue for either side as to the fact that it's going to be pitch black down there I think that's a fair point. Um I think what we're either side what we can agree on here is that there's a lot of factors for winter soldier to consider And we could if we leave Um, he should have chased him and just we'll just focus in on It's absurd that he has this device that can do this in this amount of time And winter soldier could have probably killed him. Had he not strolled to him very slowly by the grenade launchers through the window Yeah, I'm I'm sorry what He has a grenade. He has guns. Yeah. Oh guns. Yeah, he's got the guns Well, does he have a clear visual on fury as he's walking towards him? Well, if he went prone and got the gun out, right? Use the world's greatest assassin run if you run faster rather than slowly walking over to look really cool I just think prone with pistol out and he's got him. Yeah Yeah Maybe I I can't I can't you would have to have him because fury has to pass through that line of sight in the doorway to get down Right, that's true. Yeah Well, I think so Yeah Can well can fury see the winter soldier approaching like his feet? Yeah, I think he can yeah, he can he's looking at him He looks at his feet here. He's looking at the light cyber No, not just his feet, but like, uh, the winter soldier like his entire body So he could have gone prone and shot him. Yeah. I just I don't see well, you know, you would have tried surely Yeah, but yeah, but I mean does does does he uh, does the winter soldier have reason to believe that fury has this device to begin with? Well, I don't I don't know that he wouldn't be doing the smartest thing at every turn, right? He's supposed to be that good Yeah, like he's not petty. He's not showboaty. He is efficient and ruthless. He will just get his mission done and then go away Yes I feel like uh, again, it's reasonable enough for him to walk up to the car and and Kill nick fury at point blank range, but yeah, sure. He'd also go prone and shoot him I'd say especially with the blue light You're like, what the fuck's going on in there? Mm-hmm But I mean does that give him reasons to believe that he's got a lightsaber that's doing this absurd thing Well, I mean you even he would be aware of that tech, right? In fact Yes, he should be aware that fury would have access to that tech's fury is shield Hmm Fair point in fact. Wait a minute. Is it fair to infer you see what you guys think of this? I guess um That car is a lot of software That requires like auto driving different things like would it be reasonable to infer that shield might have remote control over if they wanted to Since they can override fury's security on everything at shield Um If that were even the case, I wonder if that Array would have been damaged by the initial onslaught Oh, well, I obviously would argue they'd do it before that Oh um Without Oh, no, no reference. Well, you're having sorry Without without there being reference for a shield being able to remote control all their cars I wouldn't make this inference Like do we have a direct reference to that occurring? I just wanted to bring this up. So, um When bucky sees him like using like the when he sees like the light thing, um This is like how close he is at the time. So I don't know It seems kind of risky to just use a a grenade at that point and if if he had if we want to say, oh, well, he can Uh, move back to maintain distance. It's like, okay. Well That by then I think fury would have gotten to a position in the in the sewer Where he could aim his gun and if bucky lands in boom He's I'm willing to move off of the chasers and down to the sewer thing So, uh, I could imagine honestly if he sees his legs If fury has a gun he could shoot you in the legs and you fall over bang in the head This is why you got to be quick and there's another thing I think it's worth bringing up is that it's it's the corners are like singed Well, they're hot. Yes. How did fury do this without seriously injuring himself? Yeah, that was something I found a little bit questionable like Let's say he tries to get in it's like, okay Maybe his coat can take it, but I don't I don't know. That's not really established He'll be weird if his coat could take it, but the car can't neither condition Concrete or yeah, that is a substantial inference as well um Especially compared to even the hacking into the car thing But the reason why we list all of these things Is this scene breaks the movie? It's done because if fury dies, that's it That's that's that's oh right Right, he's running away. Oh Oh rags he come home Is that does that hillhouse? We're not referring to lassie come home. Oh, right Anyway, uh, yeah, so so this scene breaks the movie because I don't know if uh, if fury dies Yeah, I would say well, what's on this scene? It's super super consequential. Yeah um No, so so this is the inciting incident and without it the rest of the film doesn't happen Captain America doesn't get any suspicions. He's not even involved He won't be able to figure it out They won't be able to figure out before insight goes ahead. So millions die So the movie is automatically bad like no matter what happens. Well, I don't know if I'd want to go that far That's the thing you're saying is it breaks the movie that so here's the thing when when I'm talking about, um The deal in that movie, um like that breaks the third act It's like everything that's happening in the third act is happening because of that deal like it's a constant effect on on the movie whereas Like it's it's it's actually what the plot is revolving around in the third act of that movie Whereas with this it's like this is really bad. It can be rewritten a certain way to uh Like we can keep the the rest of the movie as is you can't do that with the third act of spider-man 2 You know what I'm saying? So yeah, and to maybe bolster you I'm not sure So, you know like the return of the Jedi has in order for the death star to explode and the emperor be defeated There is many components that have to be functioning the ewoks Defeating the stormtroopers is one of the weakest of all of the links However, there are other links that do function And so I guess I would want to say like so this if we had the line that is winter soldier and it starts out pretty good This point we've just cut the line into shreds And now we're going to try and get back on track as a result of this scene And then we'll judge I would I would argue we try and judge the line once we finish see how much intact Is all stretched it is. Yeah, yeah Um, I think it's important to mark the break though because the inciting incident Can't happen this way. There are so many issues that it just can't play out the way that it does Because it's like 10 issues stacked on top of each other that contributes to this just every every time furious spades Uh, it prevents the the cataclysm that is 20 million people being killed inside. Yes. Well, yeah It's like I said when you have a character being shot at by a couple dozen people And they are they're all just missing because you know stormtrooper aim is just a thing Uh You know to the point where yeah, again, none of them get a single tag. Uh, it's crazy. Um That's bad, especially when that Like that person that is spared by this plot armor is like this is how many people's lives are saved It's a really bad thing mm-hmm Seems like you're leading up to a point with this one Oh, no, why on earth would you ever suggest that it's just a standard I have in general You know what I'm glad you have that standard. All right. I'm really glad you have that Well, yeah, I'm glad we've we've covered about five percent of winter soldiers problems Yeah, uh, you know, what's great is like about these types of debates is just everyone here is just like in agreement on What is a good what the pro yeah, yeah Yeah, for the most but I still think there's there's my new sure and it's good that there is Because otherwise there would be no point in listening to any one of us over the other. It would all just be robotic Um, I guess I'm enjoying this discussion here Same to summarize to summarize though We have a few things in that scene of like hydra is absurdly incompetent absurdly incompetent Um, even when a soldier is not is still kind of incompetent though the incompetence is is still to come for him Um, and if fury dies millions of people die because that's the consequence of his death They don't figure out about insight in time and millions of people die. So it's it's a significant roll-on effect of this particular uh scene on the rest of the film but uh Since we've just covered a really big chunk of uh winter soldier. Would you like to? Uh, bring up some points far from home pick a topic sure, so um, I'd like to Skip a little bit ahead to the oh, sorry No, no, I was just gonna say last last thing we were on with far from home was the stuff with uh brad finding the Taking the photo of peter we can move on from that point. I feel like we've spoken about to Our heart's content. I don't think that either side is convinced of the other side and Chat's just gonna have to decide whose argumentation they found Most convincing and we're gonna have to move on I don't know. Well, I think it's a contrivance not a hole. I assume Oh, yes Yeah, I think we agree. It is. Yeah, I don't know if we ever called a hole We meant to call it a contrivance. It's a contrivance that stands on top of the like It's like the beginning contrivance and then you get the stack of contrivances in the bus scene, right? So To clarify, I don't want to spend too long on it But what would if you can like bullet point style, what are the stacked issues of the bus scene? Sure. So, uh, we can We start off with like, okay, um Brad he takes his and I think this is I don't think this is necessarily a contradiction I just think this is a contrivance, but uh brad like, okay Well, actually I should take some I should send some screenshots first before for reference for what I'm about to say um So like how far the bus has traveled from the little rest stop Yeah, yeah, I think we need to get those screenshots I've got the screen. So the reason why I was asking for bullet points is so that we could like just be like agreed Or then we can focus on one that we disagree. Okay. Yeah This is the only one we'll have to be a bit reference heavy on but we'll get through this quickly So do you see like the two locations right here where they arrive and where they are at the start of the bus scene, right? I agree already because we don't need to spend time on this that he spends an incredibly long amount of time Preparing to send the text message for some reason Yeah, and Peter takes a long time to try to stop it Yes Okay, so when uh He's told like uh by edith initiating strike releasing kill vehicle Um, the drone shot out from space It's going to the bus it lasts at least like 26 seconds And that's ignoring the time between the time where it cuts from space to earth where the drone is So in all that amount of time Peter could have been like cancel the strike cancel the strike cancel the strike cancel the strike And he doesn't do that That's at least eight minutes by the way. It takes about eight and a half minutes for a space shuttle to leave earth and reach orbit This is science fiction world. So I don't know if I want to okay. Well, I can I can accept it for the world Sure, but would you at least concede that he should have said cancel the strike Sorry, I didn't catch that. What was it? There was a there was a time disparity for sure for how like long it takes Uh for the drone to get there and like how long it takes for the characters in the world to recognize what's happening. Yeah Well, we'll give it that it took 30 seconds from for the drone to get from space to earth Would you still say that's enough to I agree with this actually I I didn't even think about this before But you're right. It's it's the way they do it is very movie like he orders it Then we see the entire process of it arriving Process of it arriving and it's only until it comes next to the bus the pizza goes. Oh my goodness. Like that doesn't make sense Yeah, um So then um, obviously I'm just moving, you know, there is time moving beyond what we see in the shots. Yeah Yeah, so then um, he conveniently like just right at the time it would be inconvenient for him flash takes the glasses Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's kind of in uh, so then yeah Yeah, so then he hits him. He says, uh, don't kill brand and then the girl like at again Just at the time it would be inconvenient for him. She says did you just punch flash and conveniently enough that distracts him Right at that moment Yeah, um That one less so for me I just it seems likely that if anyone heard or saw it they would comment on it and it might distract him But I'll give it to you like it's still a It's like it's likely to happen, but at the very moment you'd need it to not happen. Yeah And it is built on like an already established contrivance Uh, sure. Um, so yeah, yeah, so after that, um, peter webs the wheel on the bus Nobody sees that even the girl he just talked to like seconds ago Um, yeah, that's a That's some it's a bit of luck there if it's it's a it's a tough like the way we see it She wouldn't see the initial thrust She might just catch there's something white that goes from his hand to the to the truck right before it moves Which would have distracted it like the movement of the bus so If you ask me in that moment, let's say for example, the film actually has a notice that I might be arguing Man, she could easily have missed that Hmm, you know plus the fact as soon as the car the bus swerves. It's like, oh big distraction Big distraction. Of course. Yeah, what you're thinking about at that moment Yeah, um She's looking here before the bus swerves. Oh, but also she's pretty far back in the seats. I just noticed She's not like right next to him. She's a few rows back. Sure. Sure. Yeah It's just you know, it's it's a bit lucky for him. Nobody on the bus ever saw that Maybe I'm just like that wouldn't be convenient It's it's it's lucky, but it's not like insanely lucky is what I would say. Sure. That's fair. Um Then when he Says look at the baby mountain goats like literally everyone on the bus except the driver and maybe mj is Interested in it and he jumps out of the bus webs of the drone And he he lands back in and no one saw that So he was able to land back in the bus like jump Why like ride your friend's pickup truck and then jump while it's moving and see how that goes Agreed Yep, yeah So I think that covers it Yeah, I I'm not a fan of the bus scene. I quite hate it. I think it's very stupid. Yeah Yeah, I'm glad we agree there. Um, so I would like to skip a little ahead that that's like kind of a Oh, yeah, go go. Um, I'd like to skip to the final battle because I feel That's the best set of examples we can use for instances of plot armor where spider-man should have been Dead, but he's not it's like it's like edith is the tentacle blade on steroids. So Um, interesting. Okay. Oh I don't at the moment, but let's hear what you have to say convince us sure thing Um, I'm gonna this is time stamp heavy. So I'm gonna have to pull them up first. Um, mauler, can you go to Uh, 140 28 I can do I know what scene you're talking about because I've already got pulled up and I'm watching it You can repeat the stamp again, please 140 28 um, it is Yep Gotcha Oh, so what I'm seeing is when they're, um approaching the the british gods And they're heading into the sorry I think what you want to see is the very opening of the sequence on the london bridge where the drones start firing on peter and he Starts Hey, yeah, I know I've been there. I should know that. Yeah, they even have a line in this movie about yeah He called it the london bridge. It's actually the tower bridge Yeah, yeah an honor All right Is this if you want to just so that I know if you want to just post what you can see and then uh, I'll um, I think I've got Yeah, just let me Move back a bit. Um, because my thing just glitched so I have to re-pull it up Um, is um, I'll just post is this close to where we uh are looking to be All right um Or my yeah, I think that's pretty close and it's I'm pretty sure I know it's a bit off for me, but Yeah, yeah. So this is where I'm at right? Yeah, okay So you're gonna have to pay a little bit It's a quick shot and it's like a blink and you miss it So you have to pay attention right here, but there are drones that just close the distance with spider-man Um, some of which aren't even shooting at him. It's just when spider-man swing that particular direction. They're just Close in the distance with him for some reason Instead of if they just kept their distance and shot at him. It's like oh, that's over It also just got some of the drones that are just static in the air. They're not getting anything at all I'm so glad. So they're resetting the simulation Okay What do you mean? So like they're re they're rebooting the illusion back says all right kill the illusion and we need to reboot it There are a lot of drones right, but there's a problem with that too. So well, hold on so What we know is that the simulation that peter is destroyed was choreographed Because it was probably I imagined so much data and so much going on So like as soon as the thing is compromised a little bit the illusion I think you might have cut out there for a moment fringy. Uh start off on the choreographed It's all clear for me Well, okay, so what we know what we know about the what we know about this particular thing Is that there are a lot of drones and that it is a simulation that is Very big and relying on a lot of interconnecting parts under the belief that the simulation won't be compromised in any significant way So as soon as peter shoots his Electric web You see that the simulation comes apart not just for the ones that he shot but for other drones elsewhere So it's safe to say that it's a very interconnected Simulation that there's a lot of elements interacting with each other Um, so as soon as he kills the simulation We see that it's like, all right kill it and then we need to reboot it and it's taking a while It takes time. We have a bunch of drones that are sitting off in the background Yep, I think it is safe to say that those are the ones that are part of the reboot from the simulation And that the drones that beck is sent after peter are the ones that they have available to use to try and kill them Okay, so there's a couple of things to break down there. So first of all the drones that are already being sent towards peter Would you agree that? Um, once they get like let's say they kill peter. All right, would you agree? It's pretty simple to put them back into the formation that they were supposed to be in Because isn't this automatic based on something that's already Why would we assume that it's simple? Why would we assume that it's simple? That's like thousands of drones Well based on the illusion to sequencer system It's like they'd have to be in specific locations and they would just have to go back to said locations like you get what I mean They would It was a big simulation that they shut down unexpectedly that they had planned I'm not going to go and assume that it's really easy for that simulation and drones to just get moved around and set up like that Um, but they don't they autumn uh, don't they operate off like automatically being set in a sequence and uh They're like because we'd see in the illusion test scene like that. They were scripting this. So it's like, okay If they were you were scripting this it's like Isn't it really simple to just organize the drones in that same? vicinity and then once you've got that it's like, okay, they just need to start projecting again I'm pretty sure like that's how they work I don't see how we could say that it's that simple considering how many drones there are but I mean in terms of the idea of There were drones off there and these are the drones time to kill peter. It's like So beck believes these are enough and there's a lot of drones right, but um, the thing the thing about that is uh, he Spider-man has shown destroying like numerous amounts of the drones when they're just sent in like small chunks Which he does the whole time. It's like but if you had like all five Like 30 of them Um, well, yeah, that well small relative to the amount that they have. That's what I mean. Um So if you sent like, um, even with 30 of them, it's like, okay, you have like all 30 of them distance from spider-man Uh, well distance from spider-man where if he tried to web it, it's like, okay, but you're not getting all of them in time Uh, if they're well distance and they shoot at him all at once it's game over So the big problem that you have there is that spider-man is already in motion at this point It's going to be very hard to get him because this is specifically what spider-man does He's quick and he moves around really quickly Right, but that's the thing Yeah, he's fast, but he's not that fat like if you were getting if you're being hit with like a rain of bullets It's like you can't just dodge that So my question is he's already in motion and beck needs to be safe So like he's going for beck if you get the distance on them I would imagine that just firing at peter if he's going for beck could easily kill him And as we know edith is already taking into account So if you get a bunch of drones to sit back and shoot at peter and this is again after he's already gotten in motion if he has Um, so peter swings towards beck. They're all firing their bullets towards peter the bullets hit beck like that Um, so I'm not necessarily talking about I think you're confused here. So I'm not talking about the scene where He's in the hallway. That's not what I'm asking right now. No, no, no, no to clarify. So He peter so we know that beck is in the in the tower the tower bridge on the top floor So peter's already got themselves moving. He is going to head for beck You get all the drones to back off and then start shooting at peter if he gets too close to beck Before that happens It's over because he could it could kill beck with all the Round like the other fire that's coming around But then we have a scene where we've got like a ring of of drones circling around where beck is And they aren't firing on peter while he's on the ground on the bridge So if you have like 500 drones that are shooting at peter I'm going to go ahead and say that there's a good chance that some of those bullets are going to miss And that there's a good chance that some of those bullets could hit beck If you've got them at a distance really far away while peter is swinging around let's what what do you mean? No, they won't how could you possibly say no, they won't let me show Let me show the Reference of how the the building is i'm going to have to get some pictures for this because a lot of this is purely visual so um So I I know what part you're talking about right? So there's score it Yeah, I know that there's a formation of drones around that area But what i'm saying is what if peter swings by near that because bullets just keep going He doesn't even need to be close to that for the bullets to fly in and kill beck Almost he's out of wet fluid at this point Yeah, at this point. I thought we're talking about in the beginning I thought we're talking like earlier in the the movie maybe maybe i'm talking about a different point than sk is talking about So Yeah, um, I think so I think the best um, so I'll give a time stamp real quick. Um I i'm just gonna get there real quick because Just going through the movie. Um, so go to 139 uh Oh nine 139 oh nine Mm-hmm Oh, uh, all right. So just hit Yep, I know that part so so give me a second. So just hit play Um, yeah, we're just agreeing on what's happening here. So spider man falls down. He gets rammed into a drone. He falls Right down there So he's just on the ground. All right So if he's on the ground and the drones are shooting him while he's on the ground It's like I don't see the drones hitting beck when beck is in the tower and he's at a completely different So I'm so glad you brought that up the simulation is still running and they need to shut it down Right, but he intends to kill it And the thing is the thing is he hasn't thought of this time frame that i'm talking about the Well, hold up hold up So the thing is the time frame i'm talking about it's not just all like not all of it is when the the illusions Uh is in place. Uh, it's also when here. Let me just play through it just to clarify Okay, so he kills the illusion spider man is still like on the ground like that and then He sees like happy is like In his plane or whatever he sends drones to blow it up right there So he's clearly willing to use the drones at that point So at that point he could have sent the drones while spider man was just down on the ground And he doesn't do that. He just waits a long time So part of the thing that's going to be the issue there is that we're assuming that all of these things are running in real time Like that they're running in real time when oh which oh, I see which part you're talking about, right? So like running in real time No, okay, so I get what part you're talking about, right? So the jets landed and then he sends I'm talking about the part where No, what I mean is um coming and then blowing up the drones were flown out to blow it up Uh, what i'm talking about is when he lands bex says what the hell is that? Then we see happy leave the the plane he goes to talk to uh all the kids and then yes blows it up right there Yep, because he saw it and then That's his priority at the moment. He's sorry. What because remember like bex the person who's like Determining what the drones are doing in terms of shooting at things. So that's what he's seeing That's what he's looking at and we know that this is what like how it works because when he sends the drones to kill Happy and peter's friends. He's controlling those drones specifically But the drones that are going after peter on like an auto thing They're on an auto engage sort of you know thing going on So in terms of that When we look at the scene Where it's like edith give me some protection They knock peter away and then they form the defensive barrier around the the thing and then later on it's like all right now kill him Because the simulation is getting shut down I think it's safe to see like you can see in the scene edith give me protections like yeah defensive dome That seems like a really good idea And then you know start sending the drones to kill the friends and then kill peter So like what's the issue? Uh, my issue is that he takes a while to say target spider-man when he could have said this earlier So he's got a lot on his mind at the moment considering that the simulation has just been shut down And he needs to figure out what his plan is to make this work And that's what he's doing in that scene Okay, but he's when he sees like happy's plane instinctively he decides to go blow it up and uh He plans to go kill the kids himself So at that point like yeah, he's in a state of mind where okay, I see something happening I'll do I'll send the drones to do something about it. So I'm pretty sure he's equally capable of um even prior when he's just Uh asking him to run to the illusion suit. He can say hey edith kill spider-man I don't know that he because he doesn't even know what his cover story is yet. Like what's his plan? Yeah, what is his plan after his illusion gets destroyed? That's uh Another thing that we haven't really touched on yet like Well, I hold on one topic at a time right because we got to get to that later because that's character related We're trying to figure out what exactly is happening at this moment. Sure. Um, I don't know if this helps But like the way I'm I'm going back and forth in this scene So it seems spider-man falls lands Then we see back is thinking and then he goes all right shut down. So he's like reset So if he's got kill spider-man as a target as a goal first of all shut down the simulation That's like base ground then as he's talking to his team because they'd say some if you remember He's like furious that they're even interrupting but then he's like, oh actually no. Yes. The suit is important. Um, Then we see happy scene. I don't think because this is the the limits of film, right? I don't think we're supposed to believe that happy is doing all this and he's just doing nothing This is happening while he's giving those orders to his team and then he sees happy Like straight after sends them after him and then That explodes and then we have him say go after spider-man cure spider-man. Yeah, and then okay. So that's where we go from there I think it's a fair conclusion like, okay. I guess like it's not all happening like, um, like I guess in real time um Absolutely Stuff is happening concurrently some of these things it's safe to say happening at the same time I think that's fair. But what um, I like to get back to what I was initially talking about because I think that's fair Okay, we'll go from there. Um, so when spider-man like when I was mentioning distance closing where Like in the image I sent uh In the chat like that part, uh, would you agree like yeah the drones in front of spider-man? Why were they closing the distance? If they shoot at him they could get the drones that are trying to shoot Peter right? Um, well, they're already trying to shoot, uh, Peter with the drones anyway Yeah, the drones are all shooting. Yeah So yeah, like I'm willing to agree that there was a bit of plot armor in this. Yeah in this one. Sure Um, oh my I just realized I glossed over this one. Um, okay So there was one thing I forgot to mention. Um Let me see Okay, so go to 138, um Uh 16 138 16 If you could throw a screenshot because I think I'm out of sync with you guys Um, okay, so this is the part where the drone turns around and sees spider-man webbing stuff up Yes, so, um All right, that's that's the screenshot I have of the shot. So Here's the thing. He sees him right here. He's uh, william says, uh, do you see anything and mysterious says? Yeah, I'm gonna kill him But the thing is like during this entire time He's not doing anything about spider-man when he knows that he's breaking the formation He doesn't send a drone after him to ram into him like he does later Or to shoot at him. He's doing nothing. He's just standing and watching it happen This takes place over the course of like 10 seconds of spider-man jumping around attaching the webs and then shooting the electricity He does not have a lot. Uh, I don't I don't believe so. Um, so what do you mean? You don't believe? Let me just count real quick. Um, I mean we're gonna count seconds But like we see what happens in the scene. I well, okay I'm gonna I'm gonna play it right now and I'm just gonna prove that like In these instances that spider-man is doing this like he had so many times to just say edith Hit spider-man Um, isn't isn't it worth bringing up the state of mind? He's just discovered that peter's alive when he thinks he should be dead He's about to destroy his entire grand plan. Yeah, but he's thinking sure, but he literally Sure, but he literally says i'm gonna kill him So he knows that and then we see what happens as soon as he says, yeah, i'm gonna kill him spider-man puts one more thing on On the drone jumps off shoots right, but in the amount of time Boy Sure, but in the amount of time that he was doing this it's like i'll start playing it right now When I start saying, uh edith target spider-man That's when i'm gonna start that's when I start like, uh playing the part where spider-man is webbing and then he's like About to do the taser. All right, uh edith target spider-man edith target spider-man edith target spider-man Wait, I thought he was talking about how complicated the simulation is and not to mention He's probably thinking like do I start shooting at spider-man at risk of bullets flying all over the place? Obviously eventually concludes. Yes It's like I don't want it to be underestimated how significant this moment is for for beck Like this changes his view on it. This is destroying his entire vision So yeah I don't think it's unreasonable that he takes 10 or 15 seconds to calibrate himself and then figure out what he's gonna do He already figured it out. He said i'm gonna kill him. So that's that's a desire not a plan Yeah, what does that mean? I'm gonna kill you how I mean that is his plan. He could just send a drone to hit him Oh So if you say like i'm gonna kill someone that isn't that doesn't tell us anything about how exactly he's gonna Is he gonna shoot him or is he gonna try and make it look like a fake simulation thing? What's this? He doesn't know yet Because one option he could have is to try and make that he can just hit him out of the I mean, it's you're possibly so you're right. There are like a thousand options. He has And he's probably thinking of all of them, which is the best one to do And it takes him a couple seconds or 10 15 I like I really don't think that's unreasonable I don't know. I guess I guess we'll just move on with this point because I don't think we're I think we're at a stalemate right here. Sure. Um Which is all right, that's fair. Um Let's see um Okay So, you know the part where I don't think I need a reference for this our visual reference are You know the part where mysterio is like trying to uh, Find out like where the where the kids are in the Uh in the tower bridge because he's trying to kill them So like the drone that's like approaching them really like slow and sneaky about it But the thing is it's like, okay These kids like they have phones like at any moment They could be like alerting the authorities or they could be texting people trying to spread the word. So the so the point here is that um Do you want to kill them as quickly as possible? Um, yet he just decides to do this slow like oh, I'm gonna search throughout which a couple things one We know that these drones have thermal vision that can see through walls so they could have used that Secondly, they have missiles. So if they just like launch the missiles within the within the vicinity where the kids The only place like the kids could hide it's like, okay, they're done Just sorry, I don't know much about thermal vision. Can thermal vision help you see like through walls? So I'm not so the type of the type of technology that uh that we're working with in the mcu like Falcons, uh drone red wing can has some type of x-ray vision. That's what we see in the beginning of Civil War Yeah, actually well fair enough. So these these drones likely with Karen and iron man I want to just quickly highlight that was a thing that sk said about prowlers thermal vision. Yeah, I I messed up the Yeah, um But yeah in regards to the thermal vision, so we even see like with Brad on the bus It's like the the drone can see like Brad and other students through the walls through his thermal vision. So that's another another reference So basically like yeah, they should do contrivance that they that like it's yeah, would you would you whether? Uh, well, I mean, yeah, this is I would say that this is like, yeah the sort of Kind of standard plot armory things working in in in these types of movies, which doesn't mean it's good It's just yeah, it's standard plot armor. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely so, um Let's see If um, would you be cool to switch back over or totally, um You don't have more to plot armor. Well, I was gonna say it seems It's it's to you guys if you want to well cause plot armor That's gonna take a long time to go through both films plot armor True Um, I was I was curious more if we could push plot armor to Summary if that makes sense not that you can't bring up references bring them up wherever they come up in the scenes I just mean there's so much plot armor in these movies like If we were to do that exclusively I feel like it's gonna take us through scenes and then it will randomly jump onto different topics While I think the other way around would be better Yeah Yeah So you just want me to like raise through it real quick. Uh, well Do you want to just I'm assuming so you're talking about the plot armor of the final fight. Um Yeah, if you want to do the rest the references for the final fight plot armor. Yeah, if you want to Yeah, um, let's see Okay, so 141 56 I want to bring up there we go So we see the drones after spider-man right there. They're behind him. Um And they know like he's behind the car. They're shooting at him. It's real lucky. None of the bullets are hitting him They're hitting things around him, but like not him Yeah, so I I know we're probably talking about uh, as far as i'm concerned That is like the most plot armory that it gets in this in this fight to be honest Like that's the worst it gets. Um, there's one more but not exactly, but we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah It's pretty bad. Sure. Um, yeah, yeah um, another thing is so 142 oh three when he's like behind the car and he's talking with happy um Like in that shot none of the drones wants to get they're not shooting Yeah, okay. Yeah Happy thank god. I bought us some. Yeah, that's true. Um, yeah And then 142 28. Let me get there um Oh, do you see like when the drones are like doing their little flamethrower thing? Yeah So here's the thing if they were to use bullets in that instance He's done because we even see the fire reach him Well, I mean just because you can hit someone's flamethrower doesn't mean you can hit with a bullet like it's flamethrower is a Sorry, what what was that? Oh, it's it's it's an area of effect attack, uh, which means it doesn't have Yeah, yeah, what i'm Sure sure, but it seemed like at the trajectory trajectory that they were pretty much capable of at least um, like if if bullets were used they would be capable of hitting him and I would think um bullets at this uh used against him would be more reliable Um, would you agree that if they'd missed so many times up to this point that they want to try a flamethrower to see if They can damage with it um I mean, I guess that could be I guess that could be a reasonable inference, but Um, I don't know because they do try to use bullets repeatedly throughout later on so I don't know if that uh would really hold Well, well the the flamethrowers aren't going to be in range when bullets are uh in a lot of cases I imagine and the flames don't quite work out I I guess they could conclude like so. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine Well, I'm seeing quite a few other instances of there being drones very close like flamethrower distance of peter and oh I'm seeing one even still firing a flamethrower at peter In that case, it's all gonna be individual drones making decisions based on what's working and what's not I assume I I suppose it's obviously chaos. Oh You suppose, I mean we know that these ones are kind of like almost on autopilot like the ones that are going after peter Well, yeah, it's running on some sort of AI. That's essentially able to run multiple drones at once. Uh, so I don't know. I don't know what this is making what process is for each of these drones But like we can say at least it's convenient that they pick certain other weapons like When we know that a bullet would certainly work here and instead of using a bullet it uses something else like I don't know one of the concussion blasts It's like so you've got him dead to rights and you hit him with that instead of a bullet It's like that's pretty crazy. Well, that's uh, aoe again Well, yes, but then you've got like several, um drones using concussion blasts at once as opposed to Just raining fire on him while he's knocked down Well, if you remember and this is where the criticism probably should lie. They believe they've executed him with that move Yeah, which that is like the the which yeah, I was yeah That yeah, because we saw him On top of that. He's like he's knocked down like they they For some reason they don't he is firing on him after they knock him down with the first concussion blast Yeah, because they they end up to do a full concussion blast a blast a car into him Again, I I'm not the person who operates these uh drones, but obviously it worked as far as they were concerned I guess the most charitable assumption that can be made is I guess they wanted to go for an area effect right here because um Because he kept dodging like them when they were shooting bullets. So Um, that's why they decided to go with the concussive blast But the issue with that is like once he's in the water It's like, okay at least send a drone to make sure that he's dead. Yeah, he swims out Yeah, great. Yeah, really done to not confirm the kill Yeah, a completely great idea. Mm-hmm. Um Let's see Okay, this is this is something like all right, so 143 53. Yeah Um Okay, so do you see like the drone? It's like just shooting over and over again Uh conveniently it's shooting over and over again conveniently It's right in the location that would be beneficial for spider-man taking down the stereo Yeah, to be to clarify. It's uh, it's shooting a concussion blast. It's like it's down And it is positioned right underneath where mysterio is and its concussion blast is randomly going off Yeah, it's convenient. Yeah, I assume that spider-man would have come with a different plan of some kind if it went for this But this makes his plan way easier than it would have been Yes, yep Also, it's weird that he runs out of like web fluid here considering. Yeah, that's strange It's it's like all the web fluid that he had in infinity war He never ran out in infinity war or any game and he didn't felt to me like a really arbitrary Restriction they put on him to make him do something like he has to be he has to create us You know, he has to craft some tech on the fly, which is a cool peter moment Yeah, it is a cool peter moment that's um Trived agreed. Yeah um very egregious instance of plot armor is uh, so 145-04 Or yeah, 145-04 So That's a lot of drone shooting at him, right? Mm-hmm So Keep playing at one point spider-man puts down well not puts down but he puts the shield aside and exposes himself to being hit And none of the bullets hit him at all Yeah, it's super lucky Yeah Um And another thing that I'm that I have a concern with is that while this is this object is being thrown The the drones they don't dodge it I don't know that they know what it is I mean, it's it at least would be like, you know his Method of trying to attack them in some way. So I don't know It's at least I am not but like they could just make sure it was debris. It's just like it's debris Um And also I don't know that we would assume that if his whole thing is these are the drones that are protecting me They move out of the way. What if that's like a bomb that's going to hit me If that's what they thought as well, but yeah, I think it's safer to assume that it was just debris Well, I mean if they thought it was a bomb it would be better to use something. I guess um Like the concussive blast like obviously maybe it'll still result in the drone Um, exploding but at least there's a chance that it would be blown out of uh, their way, which is a better Uh option than just letting it come to them Assuming that it was a bomb which they might not actually now that I think about it more. There's just debris Especially if they're trying to kill spider-man Uh, I'm I'm looking at the explosion itself and um This looks like it should have killed Beck Like we see Beck getting walked by this thing Oh, um Why do you think it should kill Beck? Well, I mean first off it would have blown out the windows Uh, the shock wave would have been like he would have been standing very close to it He again, he gets knocked backwards by this explosion. The the windows would have blown up. He would have been shredded Yeah, I I guess yeah, I I didn't think this was an issue at first, but Yeah shock wave and the glass shards. He'd be cut into ribbons He'd be like rosy and spider-man too All of it would have gone into his eye Fortunately, he doesn't just look at glass. He actually I did Wait, does missy real actually cover his face here? I want to see He doesn't need to cover his face. I think he does. He has a helmet on. Yeah Oh, that's true because of the helmet. He has the helmet on. Yeah, that is true But he still looks away from the explosion because that's yeah, I mean Yeah, he's not criticizing it. All right. Yeah, I'm pointing out that spider-man two did this worse fringy. Come on Well, I yeah, all right, sure. Um, is that all the plot on the then For that scene I see Yeah, for that part. Yeah, this is the we're about to get to the most the most egregious wait, um So I'm just gonna because my thing is playing right now. So I'm gonna wait a bit Are you talking about the whole way scene one? Yeah, the hallway. So one thing is So a couple things to break down here one is that when the drone shoots him. It's like, uh We've established a rule later on though that like, you know, if he's in the strike zone, they're not gonna shoot. So What was that? Where was that warning right there? I brought up the why would they shoot the strike zone thing for like 500 drones at a distance if peter got really Close to that area as a counter to the idea that they should fire like five billion drones But in terms of this particular instance, yeah, but when spider-man's on the When he's on the ground, he's not in the strike zone or if he's no, we we got past that point So i'm not even gonna because we already So but would you agree like yeah In terms of this scene, would you agree this goes against like the whole you're in the strike zone? We're not gonna shoot, uh rule No, because they're shooting forward at peter I also assume the strike zone isn't a definitive section. It's going to be relative to back in peter Yeah hmm But like this they're still like, uh the fact like I don't know if beck is just being in the same hallway as him was enough for the drones to like start What so well, I guess we're going back to it So what I was saying was that if you had like 500 drones at a distance shooting at peter If he swung really close to this section of the bridge the bullets could hit him I think that's pretty different from he is on the other side of Yeah, that was what we're talking about, but but anyway, they're on the he's on the other side of the hallway They are shooting forward and away from back and the four drones that are closest to him If he can't shoot here Then he's gonna lose or at least very likely lose mm-hmm But like that same That same logic would apply if the drones don't fire at him At all when beck is in the strike zone. I don't know um, sorry, I with that I Sorry, I'm like I'm What I'm saying with the the other one before was so you see that picture of the bridge that you've shown Where the explosion was I'm saying if you had 500 drones really far away and peter swung really close to that that would kill beck So like well If the if the 500 drones are shooting at spider-man, he's not gonna get a chance to get close there No, I thought we'd already established when he's already gotten up because the period in which he spends getting up into the air No, yeah, I agree. I agree, but still like if you have Right, I still agree if you agree then that's different then he just webs if you've got him at a distance He doesn't need to and they need to like get ready to shoot at him He's got enough time to jump up there and just hug that wall And then no, but he's not going to be able to jump up if there's 500 of them shooting at him That's what we already I thought we already said that this is after he's already gotten into the air Because we know what was happening in that scene that during that scene What what do you mean in the air? I mean, I'm talking about when he says uh target spider-man Yeah, which is at the point where he's already gotten jumped up into the air now As soon as he says target spider-man like two seconds later spider-man's in the air Is that enough time to get 500 drones at a really big distance to then start raining fire on him from a safe Well, there's already quite like there's already dozens of them right like pretty close to him that can shoot him before he would get closed So yeah, and they start shooting And then he's jumping up into the air But you said that what they should have done was gotten like a 500 drones at a distance To just rain fire on the bridge what i'm saying is that if they did that peter could just jump up and get There because he's already in motion and then that's done But um, but we did already go over this though. I guess sure. Yeah, I'm happy to move on from that And i'm saying and i'm saying that was a counter to your suggestion that they should do it from a distance That's not strictly relevant to what's happening here in terms of this strike zone Uh in terms of like the hallway scene Um stuff while you're sending uh Yeah, so i've just i don't know it's like a minor minor continuity fuckery here And um in the first picture, I believe that is spider-man holding Beck by his left hand I'm not mistaken Yeah, his left hand. Um, he's got two drones behind Beck and then suddenly he looks like He looks downwards instead of upwards and there's two other drones right there, but we don't see Uh They may have worked in the 180 degree world with this shot. That might be what's happening change the Did he change like which hand he was using like off-screen or i don't know That's just not a defense necessarily just a question Well, it's just we see drones apparently appear behind peter and then they're no longer there when we cut away from peter getting knocked away So there's two then there's four then there's two drones in this bridge. Oh, I see. Yeah And uh, I feel like if you have drones coming in there They could easily get an angle on peter where they can shoot him without killing Beck Especially if you remember he has to authorize that like so I think they just use a a move that can't possibly risk hurting Um, they I mean they hit like some it's like, uh It's not a concussive blast because it's not it doesn't make that look um particular like Sonic wave sort of yeah, I know you mean looks like it's a rocket like a mini rocket which would hurt back Oh, well, it depends. I don't know what that device is like, um It could it could the fact that it doesn't pierce anything to do with spider-man it knocks him away It could just be something that's designed as a crowd control Which yeah, specifically said that wouldn't hurt back, right? That's what I was saying. Yeah, okay Uh, yeah, so, um, shall we move on to the plot armor and winter soldier? Yeah, oh, oh well I was gonna because this was the we didn't get to the to the worst part of the the plot armor here, so Are you gonna refer to the gun scene? The art so yeah, yeah, he's like in a he's in a condensed hallway the drones. Um, they're pretty capable of Uh of killing him right there like there's not much room for spider-man to go They even take forever to shoot him to begin with it's like he's done Look at all those drones. There's like 13 of these things in this hallway Just like mysterious behind all of them just a single volley of bullets. Well, he can't dodge all that I mean, I'm assuming we kept this in mind the whole time, but like this is spider-man. He has spider sense This is the most active it's ever been Yeah, but he's not like faster than bullets Nobody's like he's fast enough to dodge a bullet when it's fired from the sound right, but he's this is not just a bullet This is a wall of bullets Yeah, and they take forever to shoot at him like like instead of just unleashing a volley of bullets They decided to shoot one or two at a time as they approach him and close the distance Mm-hmm because spider-man's really agile So the closer you get the better the chance you have of hitting him just because of how quickly he can move Not not if it's a wall of bullets. No, there's nowhere. He can go I don't think they can create a literal wall of bullets. They can't create a wall of bullets Yeah, we're not saying a literal wall. That's just a Like what we're saying is not like there's he can dodge them He is spider-man. He can jump around really quickly and run around on the walls and stuff And keep in mind not all of them can fire because not all of them can fire bullets as well Yeah, some of them are concussive ones that are counted like if you look at that setup there How many of them can fire at once? Um, let's see And I imagine they probably have software that prevents them from firing All of them? No, no Well, I mean all of them seem to have the the gun things. Which one of them? No, all of them can fire, but they won't fire I mean unless it's designed by like insanity that they just shoot each other Some of them are specific concussive ones because that's the last that's one of the last ones Peter takes out the concussive one Yeah, but in this shot right here, we see like they have the the little like minigun things on them Yeah, some of them do some of them don't know it seems like the vast majority of them Yeah, but but again, how are they all going to shoot at the same time considering how cramped that whole Well, the problem is like why are you why would you go like so up close to spider-man? And this is the thing they don't shoot at him until spider-man hits one of them I mean the fact that we're able to see these little drone here pretty clearly indicates that they'd be able to all fire at once It's kind of interesting. There was a thought here. We don't actually know if we see all of the bullets Because of the fact that it would it would make a lot of sense for back to try and hide them as well It seems like we see all the bullets like the tracers I believe is what you're referring to Yeah once the illusion starts to come apart Yeah, if you notice as soon as spider-man starts hitting them the illusion starts breaking So they stop using so they they only use tracers for when there's Like when there's no longer an illusion No, the more you break them the less the illusion has integrity And the hardest thing to mask is probably going to be the bullets. So they're the first to go Yeah I didn't even notice that thanks for pointing that out. That's a that's a that's a neat pick I think I think so. I have a I have a little question. Can I um can a drone create an illusion of another drone? Yes, uh, I think it's safe to say that I can considering how much they can do they can but I don't I don't see why what the purpose would be here spider-man destroys all of these things That was curious. Yeah, just wondering Yeah, it does destroy all all of these drones though Yeah, but rags was just asking if the drones can create illusion drones We know that he does control the drone. Yeah, the real ones. There's just a question Yeah Okay, uh, so yeah, um, well Yeah, is there any more? One more that I'd like to bring up Um, so beck uh with his gun here He just he does this super up close to spider-man when he just saw that Uh, that spider-man took down a bunch of invisible drones when they were shooting him That's not safe at all So there are a few counters to that one. Uh, he's been shot. So he's hurt So I do wonder how stable his shot would be if he was at a greater distance, but the fundamental Well, so the fundamental thing is that spider-man has gotten his peter tingle back I think it is safe to say that he would dodge any bullet that beck could have hoped to or tried to fire at him But he isn't that frame of mind that he is so highly at least that ranging guarantees hitting peter But uh, yes peter can hear him pulling the trigger. It's too late. Yeah But the thing is he's also doing that illusion of Himself at the same time and you can see like, you know, they're doing like the same hand motion thing. So it's like But peter would be able to hear him if he's that up close Peter would get access to that regardless second that gun fires. He's dodging that bullet Okay, so then like why are you then what would why don't you just escape? Why are you doing this? He's already bleeding out. This is the last chance he has to beat peter He's wounded important to note Is just saying it's important to note for both sides that bullets typically travel faster than the speed of sound Mm-hmm Yeah, but Uh, this the sound doesn't have to travel very far and it's the trigger pull that he would hear Yes, it's that it's a trigger pull. Yeah, it wouldn't matter how far the bullet has to travel The bullet's gonna get there before the sound does but also, uh, so peter hears the trigger pull but not Beck at all before that Um, maybe he did hear beck Also, uh, don't the don't the like the drones mask the the like sound that people make Oh, remember his peter tingles is like better than that I'm pretty sure he's very low on drones right now in this area But he's hearing the trigger is um his uh his illusion of himself isn't even fully integrated Just it just operates as soon as he gets him So his peter tingle is working but it's not working as he's talking to the illusion beck He doesn't have the peter seems to know that's an illusion I can't quite tell but it seems that a broken drone is actually generating it So I can't imagine it's very reliable. Yeah It is a broken drone. Yeah Um, but in regards to like him being at that distance because he's injured The reason peter is even this close to him is because he set the illusion Um up in that specific area That's where he was he said he said where he died. Yeah, well where you got shot Don't you think it would be a bit suspicious if he disappeared from where he was shot and reappeared somewhere else? You've got to make it believable, right? um Sure sure But it didn't have to be like let's say because spider-man was like really occupied with the drones He had to walk quite a bit of distance. So at least to make it so the The projection isn't within a Within a distance where spider-man can grab him. That's he is relying on a projection from a broken drone How much ability does he have to control exactly where honestly he's gonna put If I could just sort of give my take you like I think this is probably the best shot He had I think he did everything perfectly like it. So he goes down And you see spider-man battling the last drone Or last two or whatever and so he's like shit I need a new plan if I fake myself where I am right now, which is probably an inset sort of thing You can just be like clone me put me here All he needs to do now Is stand up and make as little sound as possible aim the gun and shoot if he tries to get further away That's steps. That's like lots of things to account for and you don't even know that his drone is reliable Like I'm a big fan of this payoff right, but he well, uh, so so, um peter grabs the gun like he grabs, uh, um quentin's wrist and Quentin drops the gun And peter grabs the glasses And turns his back on back without even accounting for the gun doesn't kick it away So back just slumps over by the gun could try shooting peter again Yeah, that's risky He's got his peter tingler. So I was gonna say I wouldn't be worried that peter would have been in any trouble Yeah, I I'd probably still just have him like throw the gun out the window or something. Yeah, I agree Sure And if I like a problem though, like that that would be like bonus points for intelligence for like on peter's part Is like oh, he's accounting for a gun on the floor This is the thing with um, it's a little pet peeve. I have with uh guns and superhero movies As soon as batman throws a battering Uh at a guy and throat like knocks the gun out of his hand It's like the gun's on the ground. You can still just pick up the gun and try shooting again I agree. Yeah, one gun. Yeah, it does bug me when guns are just lying around like you're still in play Leaving guns just lying around is a really really dumb maneuver a lot of the times guns are like, yes The best example of providing agency to characters and a lot of people don't appreciate that very much Yeah, same. You're cold me to me cool um But okay, um, so over to winter soldier Problem is that in terms of plot armor, we could go through like out the whole movie, but I guess to hammer the point in clearly because we'll get back to a certain sequence later on but in the final battle um, the plot armor is like hard core It's not even far from home doesn't even come close to how bad the plot armor is at the end of winter soldier For multiple characters Well, I suppose the first question would be is if they disagree with that then we can go through the references Yeah, I don't disagree with it at all. I so, uh, I mean With far from home like the best thing that I can think of is this uh the stuff with uh the tower bridge fight Right like I don't consider um, what happens in like with peter getting uh hit by the bullet train as Plot armor per se like him surviving getting hit by the bullet train. There's something about the stereo Revealing that he was nick fury and not all along white. Are we getting back to far from home again? We can go back to it later. I'm just like we'll we'll table that one I think we're still early game. So if we should just we should probably just continue, you know Like I'm just saying that this like this right here is the the main thing for plot armor and far from home Whereas it's spread out all like throughout the duration of winter soldier So, but I'm totally down. Yeah So I'm gonna go ahead and say winter soldier is more and worse But we'll have to get to the proofing I guess Yes, yeah, go ahead and just provide the references because the people that are watching this They may not agree with you guys yet. Well, I think that's sorry. We're not gonna We're not gonna be arguing with you very much. I was gonna say the winter soldier's currently on I would say it's currently winning. So we gotta we gotta get going for your catch up Yeah, so, uh, I guess the problem is like, I don't know if I want to go through just a big list of everything in the whole Movie or if we'll get back to some later with certain action scenes But like in the final battle because I'm we we start with captain merrick Pretty obvious might be good to name a couple big ones and I mean like We've named like 15 significant ones for fury in his action scene Yes, so we got all those so I think it's safe to say that those count We were talking about peter dodging the drones falcon dodging all of the bullets from the helicarrier That is some like hyper fucking Um plot armor that seed all of the all of the shots that he is managing to dodge Is insane Um, so so we have him throughout the whole battle Um captain america when he jumps on the helicarrier the amount of plot armor in that sequence is basically Every time that there are people trying to shoot at him They don't flank him. They take him head on where he's got a shield. Um, and they always close the distance They run towards him with their guns. There's some really weird ones Like I think the way they film it is that characters aren't alive or a decision makeable Until you can see them Yes, because um, I think the the clear example of that is when captain america is like Charging towards the door. He's about to get into the door to get down into the room He takes on about seven or eight guys. They all close the gap They all run towards him instead of trying to engage him from the distance I mean, I could give you a time stamp, but I'm I don't know if it'll be It's after it's it's when um, it's when sam starts getting chased by the uh, the the jet So he's flying around he's getting chased by the jet this and then everybody runs towards him Oh, yeah, yeah, I see nobody Nobody exists until he gets in camera And they don't try and do anything and it's funny right because people might be like will you send spider man? They need to close the distance It's like well the big thing to remember is captain america ain't as agile as spider man He's also like his legs are just right there. His legs are super vulnerable So like as soon as he has not got the shield He is incredibly vulnerable to being shot and he can't jump and dodge around them like spider man can So there is a lot of that for captain america and of course with with falcon as well It's like dodging all of these things and then like the queen jets like oh I'm gonna lock on now after chasing him for like a minute and Then he manages to dodge all of those and that's that's really neat Um, should he manage us to do that? Um a question I have so Were you saying like do you think it's like an issue that the falcon was capable of dodging like all the Um all the attacks being the amount of fire that he has to dodge compared to spider man Is is pretty nuts to be honest with you like he is getting fired upon by the entire arsenal of a queen jet I'm not a queen jet about worse than that a helicarrier. Oh, yeah Um with flak, that's I've always been in the middle of that. I just wasn't sure Yeah, because I was always I was always in the middle. That wasn't sure. Is this plumber? And that's a big thing to hear that out spider man gets hurt. He gets hit He like he gets shot, you know blown away by Shots from rockets and stuff falcon doesn't get hit at all. He doesn't get hurt. He doesn't even have a scar He just manages to dodge all this flak fire missile fire bullets firing on him from The target of concentrated fire of a helicarrier that's apparently got enough weapons and targeting capabilities to kill like a million people Uh in several different cities across the world, which we'll get to later on um And then later on cap like jumps off of the helicarrier after he's managed to put the chip in They have a clean shot on captain america's back with no shield there And they don't take it. They fire a rocket at him instead after he jumps off instead of just shooting him in the back So um, it is worth it. Yeah, sorry go ahead It's it's worth noting that falcon is uh using a jet pack and wingsuit and is a very Small and nimble target and is very good with using it. Um, which in by the way flying is going to be a more official yet What how do you account for flak? so I don't understand So, um, so I'm not so like I'm pleading adorns as to like how flak works Flak flak is essentially anti air munitions whenever you're um Whenever you see in the movies, uh, this happens in world war two two movies a bunch You have the bombers and planes flying over And you have all the poof poof poof poof little puffs in the air the little explosions. Yeah, no, that's that's flak Yeah, it explodes and it's in shrapnel in all directions It's like depth charges for air and he is dodging like this is unreal Bit load of of shrapnel that he's dodging. So yeah, it's the whole thing of like When spotter man gets hit by the explosions It's like there's there's that but he is wearing a suit that surrounds him as well Sam has a lot of expo and he's superhuman and sam has a lot of exposed skin And it's a lot more concentrated fire if I want to make him a suit that doesn't have so much exposed skin And I mean, I guess this is anti plot armor But like after so sam falls down doesn't shatter his legs when he lands on the ground And when cap gets knocked off the helicarrier he manages to grab on instead of falling to his death Um, you've got those danzy When sam is on the ground when rumlows going through the hallways Uh, there are there are some shield agents there and when he gets there The first guy he takes spins in the opposite direction away from rumlows so that he has enough time to stab him It's really weird. It's unreal in terms of anti plot armor. Yes. Yes, please Um, it's about one like 48 50 for reference. It's it's after uh falcon lands the parachutes soon after that and cap climbs up Yeah, it is insane. Y'all need to find a better term than anti plot armor. That doesn't roll off the tongue No I called it plot poison in one of my videos, I think Oh, yeah, that's that's pretty good through Plot poison. Yeah, so yeah, the reason why I bring that up is because it's insane and then it's really funny Like Oh, you know, I think we'd be better a plot drone strike. It just comes out of fucking nowhere. There's no warning for it It just it's bullshit Plot poison sounds sexier though. You gotta sound sexy like You just jump ahead because the next part is a captain america fight, which I think deserves its own Sequence where we'll talk about that later on so I guess so what I was gonna say was like if we've given enough Standard examples what because we can go scene by scene and then we can just highlight plot armor as we're going through other Floors, if you know what I mean, sure Um, because this is this is throughout the movie. The the big one is cap shield It is it is where he needs it at every instance where he needs to block himself from damage And people just forget he has legs and they don't shoot him in the legs And this happens throughout the movie There are times when he doesn't have a shield and winter soldier throws the shield to him which helps him So like a good instance is At the beginning of them, you know when went after the furious assassination, which will uh the fury actual fake, but real assassination Winter soldier catches He catches the shield So like take it Don't give it back to him. Take it steal the shield. Well, it's crazy to think that if he ran away with that shield It's game. It's over. Do you you mean what like uh in the in the first chase? Yeah, no, so it's what yeah, someone that chased him on the roof But uh, he catches the shield and he throws it back at cap instead of taking it Yeah And by the way, if you wanted to argue that he wants to you know, not kill cap for whatever reason that might be He can at least delay him. You can do it. He's got all kinds of an arsenal attached Um, yeah, so when he throws the shield back to cap it sends Uh, it like kind of knocks cap backwards a bit and gives him enough time for like to escape You're right. You're right. Sorry. Maybe I didn't um, let me rephrase it So, uh, if he's looking to do that to delay cap anyway, all he has to do is draw a gun Yeah, and shoot him just well, you don't even if he doesn't want to kill him for whatever stupid reason that might exist He can just threaten him and cap will have to back off or back away And if not shoot the floor around him until he fucks off and then just escape You know, that'll do more than throwing the shield back. It literally saves 20 million lives It's kind of insane because without that shield cap died several times over I'm uh Yeah, the only thing that I'd say about like him not just pulling a gun cap is I don't know if I if I can see a Compact sidearm on him, but it would it would make some time to have one on him You'd have to have a sniper job Two sidearms on well, I see it now. I see yeah. Yeah. I I I moved it forward a little bit Yeah, he he has three weapons as a general rule of thumb. It is in character. Winter soldier is an incompetent buffoon Winter soldier is an idiot. Yeah It isn't character It's going to be the big takeaway that some people can be really shocked by and I mean happens. Yeah Sam has hardcore plot armor when he fights rum low and then you know, the helicarrier crashes through Had he been on the other side of the table? He'd be dead. Uh, I don't know how rum was not dead It's so lucky that he wasn't wiped out by that He's so lucky and then he jumps out of the helicopter Falls about six stories and lands his head so hard in the helicopter that knocks the door off He's dead. His neck is snapped. He's dead The force it would take for him to with his head to knock off a helicopter door This is assuming that fury was quick enough to turn it if he was a couple floors higher He would have just been turned to confetti like Sam would have been chopped up by the blades So there's you have that throughout the movie. Um, but yeah, so I guess that's uh, that's the plot armor is way worse We will be getting to more of it as we progress I would say Maybe we shouldn't claim it's worse yet. We know it is but we might have to convince you guys Unless we're wrong that it is What I would gather from this is oh, sorry. Do you want to say something? Well, I'm kind of curious because um, we know that shield Uh, well hydra within shield they want information from cap because fury was the last person that cap spoke to So is it possible that bucky was actually given an order not to kill cap? Like I said, it wouldn't matter if he had it was okay to kill him or not. He can still shoot the floor around him Was still in the gun of him. Yeah Um, yeah, that's fair. So yeah, that's um what what I wanted to say was that like I already knew that winter soldier had quite a bit of plot armor, but I think the Um the stuff the other stuff that you guys are bringing up like some of it I didn't even notice so And there's not a point right now where I think uh far from home's plot armor and winter soldier's plot armor is pretty much Like in the same tier of shit. Um, no still shit not like pretty close to each other. Yeah I think it's fair that you believe that right now. I think that's totally fair. We're gonna try and get to a lot more of it. Um Back that we're only up like what 10 of the way through the movie Uh, and there's this many references for plot armor only tells me that there's It's just like we haven't even gone to the highway fight yet Yeah And and the uh the missile strike the the air strike. Yeah. Oh, yeah Well, yeah, um, so I I'm almost desperate just to get to that. I want to get to the apartment. Let me get to the apartment We can we can absolutely go there. Yeah Um, well, I'll I'll do this as quick as I can so I'm gonna I'm gonna bullet point all of the problems in the scene And then we can go one by one if you guys want So, uh for all we understand fury now knows shield is compromised He has the usb that has information on it that he can't access at least not with his clearance in shield So he decides to go to cap's apartment that he knows is bugged and being listened to by shield to tell him not to trust anybody Um My first criticism would be fury is not fury. He's acting completely out of character. This is fucking absurd Why is he not taking himself to a safe house? Why would he announce himself in a place that's bugged to get killed only to be able to tell cap Don't trust anybody Which is going to be heard if he's not unlucky but then Obviously, I guess to do bullet points. Um, someone comes right in and says, oh my god captain america steve rogers Are you here? And then he's just like, oh, yeah, and she's like I work for him Wink wink nudge nudge and then she just it goes to the body does whatever she wants to do And steve decides to chase winter soldier He immediately trusts this woman after fury who has already lied to him comes in with a gun Unconvinces him. I totally work for this guy 100 percent. I think that's insane from steve's perspective. And then it's also I'm What I want to call this Winter soldier hacks around for 30 seconds as the most inept assassin in history to leave yourself completely open when he's supposed to be The a ghost story to all innate intelligence agencies So there's two things I'd like to bring up So sharon being assigned to protect captain america. You said that that doesn't make sense No, I think that makes sense. It doesn't make sense that steve would believe her Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Um as for bucky hanging around for 30 seconds, uh, is it possible that he's trying to wait to Like confirm the kill maybe get a third shot on fury I don't know that that is gonna be how he can confirm it and no sniper would do this This is like like no greatest assassin of all time would do either you've taken the shot. You have to get out of there Um, especially if we have to believe that he's not even a person people believe exists This is the this is by this whole movie just spits in the face off as a little that's his that's his thing It's like I don't believe the ghost but yet he just makes himself exposed on so many occasions like yeah waiting 30 seconds Because remember that's how the chase that's the actions because that's the reason why it happens He stays there for 30 seconds so cap can see him. So there's the action scene and grabs the shield It's like oh look at this guy. That's why it happened because none of it makes sense that I Something I'd like to mention is that um, nick fury typically because we see this in avengers 2012 He typically carries like a bulletproof vest. So while While it wouldn't resist all of the bullets it would provide some form of resistance and uh And it could be like, you know, maybe he's not officially dead like it it doesn't resist all the bullets, right? I want to agree with you resist enough for really do I love you man, but like he's got wounds on the front of him all three Oh I didn't see that. Yeah, never mind. He's dead. He's absolutely dead. His organs are mashed Yeah But fury's plot armor is Intense it's a power he has it might actually be his power. I'm not sure It's super power. His hidden superpower is surviving three and yeah I feel like this is why I call it cap's apartment. There are Like these three get significant damage in this scene and it allows the plot line to be what it is Had samuel jackson gone I'm going to one of my safe houses that no one but me knows about because of course He would have one of them And then he would be like I'm gonna contact black widow the person that I can trust the most outside of possibly tony stark But I know he doesn't like him But he knows that he's not gonna be evil And then he can get the usb to tony tony can hack it So many other things should have happened before he decided I'm gonna walk into this apartment and tell steve not to trust anybody He puts a target on steve's back and he said he basically announces to shield. I'm here come and kill me Really retarded Yeah, I think so. Yeah, and he's he's the world's greatest spy Widow soldiers the world's greatest assassin and caps Like supposed to be intelligent But It's funny as well because cap is clearly suspicious of here But then he's like, oh, okay. It's chill. You said you work for him. It's like what? You say this after he's already been shot Well, yeah, exactly that's the problem Give no reason to believe that anything she's saying um Sounds pretty dire, um So, uh, what what you got for far from home? Should we switch over? Yeah Yeah, um, sure thing. Um One thing that I want to mention about the climax as well I forgot to mention this. So there's a point where spider-man is is blocking the bullets with What is it with the the drone? so the thing is Like his legs are unprotected at the time. So could the the drone's just not fire lower I I I understand. Um, I would just say it's probably a little reasonable that the drone Is just going to be shooting at the target from what it sees as the target It might even think it can shred through the cover So it's a tough shot. Um, but I think it's more reasonable for a drone to think to do that than a human I don't know because these are supposed to be like sorry This is how um, there's a point of reference. I suppose this is how video game hacks normally are If someone's hacking in a game to auto aim to you to target you Um, you can get behind cover Uh Or it'll aim for either the head or center mass. It won't it won't know to shoot it Legs or things of that nature. So Well, you figure that the drones would target the center mass because it's the most reliable way of killing something Sure, but like The thing about the drones though, it's like they're designed by by tony stark and they're they're driven by an advanced ai So they're supposed to be like a lot smarter than than usually like they see okay There's a barrier that's blocking our shots. Let's go for the parts that aren't exposed or that are exposed. Excuse me I think if we saw that happen, um, I wouldn't be saying Wow, that's way too advanced for them. I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. But if I don't see it happen I'm like, yeah, that can make sense But uh Anyway, that's one instance in this film and there are a few of those and uh Yeah, there are there are like, I think two of them or three of them in winter soldier I think there are more than I'm pretty sure that there are more than two and one of them is hyper Like I'm looking forward to get to one of them. Yeah The one that sticks out most is like Yeah, the minigun. We'll get back we'll get back to that one. But yeah, the thought from What else is there? All right, let's um, sure. So I guess we can talk about the illusion scene for a bit Yeah, sure. Um, yeah So the setup for that is okay. Um There's a there's there's a problem with how the Um, how the illusions are working, uh with the with the fire element to fight. So firstly, um, it's a problem that Peter happens and this is just a this is not what I'm this is not about the illusion right now This is about like the contrivance. So spider-man webs onto a projector Like right on right on where he would need to to pull it out He yanks it it lands right by mj and that allows the rest of the movie to happen Oh, completely free by convenient. Yeah, very convenient. I agree Yep And another thing is like, okay, so we know that uh the drones They rely on their own projectors to cloak themselves, correct? Um, I um, I think we can say that it could be twofold that some drones use their Do it to themselves and the other drones would be capable of doing it to them because it's safe to say That you can cloak other objects using the illusion tech. Yeah well, right the thing is So the drone that sent after fury that really stupidly decloaks itself before Trying to kill him so they can get it doesn't no it doesn't stoop. We talked about this. We already covered this the illusions The illusion was the whole thing was compromised Because so much significant damage because we do see we do see some drones that are still capable of closing in. No, we do This is one that isn't yeah Yeah, but here's the problem with this. It's not in contact with the taser webs at the time It's it's like the furthest drone from them. This isn't a part of the illusion. This is a like a separate drone All of you separately from the illusion to kill fury Yeah, you see what I mean This isn't like projecting the the monster So if we know that all of the drones are connected to like one system and that it's a really complicated illusion Is it unreasonable to believe that there is a certain interdependence in terms of the systems working together to make everything work No, I wouldn't go with that because like I said Are you saying it's possible Or here's the thing we Well, here's the thing when he shoots the taser webs and he's like he says activate taser webs um, it's done, uh, like he Busts a bunch of drones that are connected to the webs But the thing is there are drones that are still projecting and the reason they're still projecting is because they're not in contact with the taser web Which would no no no no no no no no no no there are drones that you can see that were not tasered that also And I'm not even take the illusion down whether we can talk about it making sense I think it's very clear that the film is trying to tell us that by fucking with all of the drones of the electricity It's fucking the illusion on a wide scale including the drone that's on fury So wait it screws over the drones that are Screws over drones over there that aren't even like touching. Yeah, um, I'm not electric So to clarify, I'm not saying that that is the best way to run your software I'm saying the film is saying that's how the software is running Okay, so would you admit like that's a pretty, uh, nonsensical way to design your software? I would not agree that it's I don't think he anticipated this at all I think he was they were all running on one big circuit. This is all a huge plan and then, uh Spider-Man fucked with it and it's it's peeling away all of the illusions Okay, well, I'm not sure that's the case Regardless whether this is stupid that uh, wasn't that that drone cloaking itself because it was by itself Yeah What we were saying was that it's an entire system that's working together to create a very complicated illusion Think of it as unreasonable to design that drone as part of the network Yeah, it's it's a part of the picture that he's painted this whole thing in prep Including the the drone that's invisible in front of fury fury's plan to be killed. He's this is always this is a part of the whole thing But the thing about that is There's still drones that are still functioning while this is happening and they're still Yeah, if you look it's it's peeling away. It's peeling away loads of them Yeah Is it not why would why would the whole thing be utterly destroyed instead of just parts of it being destroyed? I imagine it's it's all trying it are destroyed which Yeah, yeah, but that was my point Parts of it are coming down and parts of it aren't because it's complicated It's just it's trying to compensate for everything. Yeah, it's just I don't know that's I think that's a pretty fun. Do you think that it would be better If when one drone gets shocked that the whole thing comes down Or would you prefer that if one thing gets shocked that part of it comes down as a problem with this film? Well, what I would what I would go with it's it's neither of those I would go with a third option where every single drone that was electrocuted by the taser web Those would be the ones that stop projecting not the ones that aren't in contact with it That makes a lot more sense. But the thing is you say that it's a choice I don't know that the system works that way What do you mean? It's a very it's a very complicated illusion that and this system was not built to do this Edith was not built to make these things This is like Beck's work for a system that he didn't have before that he's working with Why would it be perfect? He's he's assuming that nothing's going to go wrong I assume that's why he has to turn them all off and then reboot and turn them all back on because this is not what was intended whatsoever um I don't know because In this case then like why are there still drones that are still effectively projecting it though? Like we can see that the whole time So again, would you prefer that the whole thing comes down or that some of them come down? Would it be better if the whole system went down because I feel like if it did It's sad that it's all the system was built But I don't understand why do we You're suggesting like why it should work a particular way the the film's showing it works this way And this is a perfectly reasonable way for it to work. Well, I don't I don't see how it's reasonable though because um The drone that's like even further away from it that one gets unclothed But like there are multiple other ones that haven't been unclothed when they're even closer to the illusion And they're actually connected to the whole Uh elemental battle this one isn't yeah, they don't need to be connected directly like literally pixels. They don't have to be connected Well, yeah, but like why I just don't see how it like how it lines up that this one Unclothes, but the ones uh, but the other ones don't uncloth. It seems that most of them are screwing up at this moment Yeah, a lot of them are screwing up. Let me let me remember um the illusion is going patchy as in Turning off and on in different sectors at all times It's like So if you keep an eye on the um the big spooky illusion, it's like it's it's the patches are changing locations until he turns it off I'll and the big thing is that they're just for reference So to reiterate He jumps into all of the drones that he took down are in the big elemental But we see later on that the drones are disappearing on other clouds On fire and on mysterious own like, you know green gas illusion. The whole illusion is coming down in parts I don't think it's unreasonable when we see that I'm just gonna here you go This is a quick comparison. This is before he shuts it down for both of them if you look at those two They're different uh things are shutting down and moving around Illusion was not built to to deal with like 50 drones getting tased and it's it's a software. They all run on at once Yeah, like every illusion is counted in this and so if there's damage done or confusion happening It starts to go patchy everywhere including the one that's after fury Hmm So what what's the next one? Um, I'm just looking at the scene real quick just to see everything's lining up. That's all um I don't know. I'm not getting the impression that they're just that there's drones that are Going uh, well at least the projector is going off and on That's not what i'm seeing here. Um, it's I'm not saying flickering. I'm talking about like patches of darkness coming around as a result of the software Having been corrupted or scrambled trying to keep up with what's happening That everything's coming apart in a way that was not planned for Like those two images I would show that the drone is responsible for its head The off or looking to be off when he first does it they're back on when he's back's about to shut it down Yeah, and again drones that weren't tasered are coming down as well because mysterious tail Ones there that are you know on the the green cloud they weren't tasered But the system is breaking apart because it wasn't built to deal with this With spider-man destroying like 50 or 100 of them, uh when they thought he was dead So the thing is um, so you're mentioning like the The head thing like, uh, just disappears It's patching like it the sequence of it right, right? Yeah, like I wouldn't call I'm not gonna call it flickering or anything Okay, so um from what I'm saying it's like It seems to be moving downward in the uh, here else. I'll reference where this happens. It's like right before he's about to kill it Hang on give me a sec. I mean Yeah It's back No, I don't know. Yeah, I didn't know what his point was. That's why I was Yeah, do you want to catch me up? I I mean, I'm I'm I'm trying to weigh on him to uh, lever his point himself because Uh, a couple of these things we haven't been on the exact same wavelength Or he'll he'll be making a point and I think that he's making a different point and so we end up Oh, okay. It sounded like you You could uh family came home. Yeah, okay Um, yeah, actually yeah what I was All right, so um I'm not sure like what the whole thing about the head reappearing is all about but my guess would be because like, um uh, because the What is it called? I don't know the cloud elemental would have to like move up and down like at parts of the like the actual plan projection so I'd guess that because it moves down then The part like above him would be unable to be projected but because in canon in his Uh, illusion sequence the the head moves down. So I guess because the drones in that area were working Uh more it was able to project the head thing. I don't know. That's just my first guess The gist of the point here is All of the drones that are running to create the simulation Are running on a big network and they rely on each other and it's interdependent and it's all being planned in a certain way So when spider-man destroys a good chunk of the simulation Not only are the damaged drones going to stop projecting But because they're not projecting anymore the system is struggling to Uncompensate deal with with this. Yeah, it can't compensate. So the illusion starts to fall apart In various parts as it tries to like reset and one of the drones that's part of the whole system Is the drone that is invisible in front of nick fury I don't think it's Yeah, I'm still listening though. I'm willing to say that that's understandable The thing is I was just trying to point out that that drone that was sent to kill nick fury seems to have been Uh projecting onto itself to cloak itself I think that's yeah, I mean it may well be uh But that doesn't change otherwise there'd be another drone that would be nearby and yeah, sure But that doesn't change the fact that it's part of the network And so it's reasonable to believe that that one goes down as well in terms of its holograms My original point was that the drone that was sent to kill nick fury was by itself Which would imply that it was cloak itself because we were talking about whether these drones can cloak itself But I but I I I Dead it stupidly decloaked itself before shooting nick fury and that's I don't think it's stupidly not Well, so that's the thing if it were to have Uh decloaked itself independently of like all this because I think you guys are providing a reasonable explanation here um but Like you I'm saying like just oh What I will say is that Let's say the illusion was fully operational and it decloaks and then shoots him. I would be like that's really weird I don't know why it would do that like it doesn't need to do that But that's not what was happening sure, um But yeah, like the the main point of course was whether these things can cloak themselves Which it appears. Yes. You don't need to clone two drones to to cloak Each other and just have one one drone poking itself All right. I'm back. I just had to help family with a little something real quick So, uh, are we moving from this one then? um Well, one more thing I'd like to mention about that is Excuse me. So, um The the drone in front of fury that was meant to kill him Like he knows that it tried to kill him and then I got blown up. So why doesn't beck just send another drone after him I think beck is very busy right now. I don't even know that he knows where fury is anymore at that point Well, yeah, but wouldn't he just warn him saying like Yeah, go on there's a drone that's right outside fury's office and all the drones have cameras and also, um You would think that once that the illusion goes like starts going awry in haywire But that would be the time to kill fury But it's a long time. He has a lot of things to deal with at that moment But he needs to sort out of a priority like spider-man and his friends as well But surely there would be like or but he can be like he's got he's got a crew that he's working with here Yeah, really one of them would be or what so We know that there are a couple of people on the crew who specifically work with the drones Mysterio works with the drones and um these scientists from iron man wine William is like the guy in the chair, right? I don't know that Because everybody else has different roles like there's the guy who comes up with the law There's the costume lady the woman who does the electromagnetic pulses. So who would it be? William probably also Yeah, but he's he's busy retaining the simulation. I don't know the Like so is it impossible that fury was like trying to get away from any sense of them being able to kill him like it is fury Do we believe he's sitting in that room waiting for another drone to come and get him? Wait what? So so the idea is the Come and kill him. It sounds and another one. It sounds to me like you're saying like why wasn't he sending drones after fury Why wasn't he making an effort to kill him? It's like I'm willing to debate that point But at the same time, how do we know that he didn't and how do we know that fury didn't defend himself? Is this sk or me that you're responding to? Uh, whoever If I'm wrong on the criticism I I recant. I thought one of you made that point So my thing my thing was there was a drone that was outside fury's office, uh, or wherever that is Whatever he's doing there. Um, you think that once the The illusion starts going awry fury has now basically found them out that is mentioned to be a concern of becks Earlier in the film and if they were planning on assassinating fury, then they should probably do this now Especially if they know, yeah, so I bet the drones out there. So my question was why are we? Why are we concluded that that didn't happen that no one put any effort into killing fury and that he couldn't have defended himself Because fury was outside. Sorry. So fury was still in the office hill or the scroll impersonating hill Goes up to the top of the skyscraper that they're in Um, fury is just standing in front of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay So I'm just scrolling through the film So you have beck goes defend me edith and then spider-man falls and then he's like, oh shit. Happy's here Okay, you I'll personally kill them drones on auto to kill spider-man And if someone then goes after fury in some way she performed He's already had this much time to do whatever fury's gonna do to make it so that Drones can't get to him or that he has defenses for them But he would be standing at that window the whole time, right? But that's what we see him doing in this No, it's not we see him doing that and then they blow up the drone And then we don't see him until the end of the battle. So we don't know what he's doing But like every time that we cut back to fury. He is standing at that window No, after Wait, sorry after the drone fight it gets blown up. I don't think we see him until the end of the entire I was gonna say I just I can't remember seeing him Well, so I'm not talking about sorry Just make make a figure. I'm not on eskies point of continuing to send drones after fury I'm on the point of the first and Only drone that we see being sent after fury Are you are you saying that more than one should have been sent? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying that it should have fired on him once the illusion started going awry Oh, well, that's he's explained by everything's in chaos. We don't know what's going on So there's no order that goes through to kill fury at that point because that's clearly not when they were gonna kill him I think obviously I would assume mysterious more busy with the fact that his entire illusion is falling apart And then by the time he could have ordered it, it's already exploded Fury's already maybe he has seconds You know what? I'm not gonna accept it. Maybe on that one The plan was to kill fury in a way that would be able to hide it in the illusion I can I would I would imagine that it's safe to say that that was the plan Or that if not that they were gonna shoot him a lot later on So when the illusion comes down was Beck meant to have parameters. Okay, so when the event that spider man And travel In the event that spider man comes along and destroys the illusion Immediately kill fury that seems risky Like if that's the plan And if not, he didn't have enough time because that drone got blown up like three seconds afterward And he was already busy with a lot of other stuff So was the idea actually for the this monster to travel over to where fury is Oh, well, I don't know the original can we like could we so what was your point? You said that it was meant to just shoot fury as soon as the illusion comes down No, I'm not saying that was meant for no, no, no, no, that's not the that's not why I'm seeing the original plan was I'm asking you you said when the illusion came down like at the first instance. Why didn't the drone shoot fury? Well, that should have been a thing that they were thinking about because I don't think that area and they're watching that was the thing they so did What what about everything that I just said before do you like disagree with all of it? No, I don't disagree with all that. I don't disagree with the explanation that that there's chaos That's like you disagree with the explanation that there's chaos when the whole simulation I literally just said I don't disagree with You don't I just I literally just said I don't disagree. What don't you disagree with what do you disagree with them? um, so My my issue here is it seems like you guys are uh misunderstanding what I've said And conflating what I've said with okay restart man. What restart? What's what's the point? So the initial criticism was the drone is in front of fury's office is watching Fury is a person of interest to these people um, the illusion starts going awry and Many moments pass it it seems in the film Where you've got this drone. That's just camped outside fury's office And it's not doing anything. They're not doing any more with it. What's what's many moments? How long? uh, let's see here, so the illusion let me Start at 138 10 seconds by the way. I've already checked it's about 10 seconds and again I feel like did we talk about this already? Like this is just another thing to add on to mysterious plate. He's dealing Everything's falling apart. He has to reset everything. He's probably not thinking about the drone outside fury's window right now Gotcha I think that's perfectly reasonable. Okay. Yeah, sorry. I I got the um Uh, the order of events wrong. I thought that the the drone decloaked when they reset the system No, the drone decloaked as soon as the illusion starts to fall apart Hmm Okay um, so so are we so this drone was I guess my question is this drone was camped outside fury's office And the idea was for this monster that mysterious was fighting to Make its way over to this. I have no idea what mysterious plan was it could be many things Yeah, it could be that that's what happens or it could be that it just kills him at some point His fire is a shot through there at the right time I thought he said that that was going to be suspicious. I Well, that's why I said the right time. I don't know Yeah, I don't know what mysterious plan for fury was exactly. I can think of a bunch of things he could do But I don't know what he was gonna do Well, I guess my question would be what reason would he have to keep him alive this entire fight So What that he should kill him before anything's happened No, no, no, I'm saying after like the illusion was exposed because he does say, you know, Yeah, but I think oh, we yeah, we uh, I thought we covered this so the drone's been taken down We don't see fury until the end of the movie So we have no idea whether he sent more drones to try and kill him Or if you're I mean, I think it's safe to say the fury didn't stand the same room So we don't know that you have enough time to kill him at first instance and I think it's safe to say that it's changed Would you say that he's trying to hide and take cover, right? I we don't we don't even need to talk about like what he's actually doing because we know that he lived Fury is like one of the most resourceful characters in the mc or at least he's supposed to be Even if it's Talos fury, he's still kind of resourceful. Well, he's equally as resourceful. Maybe not as intelligent Yes Definitely not as intelligent Well, yeah, that's the film tells you that Um, what I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with what the film presents Even though it doesn't show us what's happening. There's nothing wrong that you take from what happens with fury As you know after that point Like anything that you come up with is just not a part of the movie So then like what? I don't know. What's what's the reason that like, um So what would nick fury do after the drone was blown up? Like what are the possible things he could have Done to avoid being killed by the drones Why why do we even care when we know that he's alive and that we don't see anything? Because what I'm saying is that he was if he just said hey Edith target nick fury and he can send the drones in pretty fast and nick fury's done But nick we don't even why would we assume that nick fury is still in that room after that drone has been Right, and I'm exactly. So what I'm saying is what was so you want me to tell you what fury was doing Even though we don't need to see what he was doing. We could just infer that he's moved because we know that he's Right, but what could he have done that would have been that would have made him survive this Leave the room and then you don't know where he is Okay, so nick fury was going to was going to leave the area to try to take cover, right? Why are you asking me to explain to you what's happening that's not in the movie? Like Of like exactly what happens in the movie when we don't see what happened and it could be a few things I think a better question is do you think it's impossible? Is that your position? Uh impossible what a fury that he survived something that allowed him to survive Um, I don't think it's impossible, but I think it's He has a pretty high chance of being killed if he sent the drones to him Oh, well, um, the fact that he knows that this is a potential he's got his full team There's all kinds of things fury could have set up especially with the resources like I said of uh, All the tech he has like it could literally be a look at let's go simple. There's a safe room He just locks himself in it with all of his men Hmm, okay, and meanwhile remember like mysterious already preoccupied. He's got a lot to deal with at the moment Hmm All right. Well, I'm happy to move on. Yeah, you know what? I'm I think I think it's let's go back to winter soldier. You know what? We spent a lot of time on that um, so I think the next thing is we've got a few things we can talk about I think the sequence from uh The hospital scene is ridiculous like I don't even understand how it's possible that they they covered up fury's death Like I don't even understand the logistics of how they managed to do that Well, I'm sure they're so especially with hydra doctors like yes hydra would want to confirm the kill So why would they have allowed any sense of it being a writ and they would be aware of banners? formula or ban whatever this He uses because again, they don't even they didn't know up until like a couple of days ago that they couldn't trust everybody at shield Mm-hmm So everything fury has access to technology and medicine and formula and everything why it's like they know it too The idea that they didn't confirm that he was dead Or that they just saw that the heartbeat was low and they were like well, he's dead Especially how advanced the tech is now she's like man That's some next level luck for fury to have gotten through all of that Uh now do we remember if there was anything more significant because I know that the next part that's relevant to the plot Is the scene with captain america and kiss like the name Hiding the usb in a vending machine when someone is working on it and people have filled in this corridor and he is spotted Just by some luckily by somebody who is a good guy who's a friend. Yeah Um, and so then we proceed to him going up to talk to pierce. Wait, is it with yeah I see you guys would stop us if you disagreed. I just want to make sure Yeah, so there is a bit of a concern I have with the because with the nick fury Cover-up thing. Um, I've actually had this criticism at first but then I thought about like, you know possible counters. So I'm kind of in the in the middle of this point. Um, So the thing is with nick fury, um, the doctors that were taking care of him They were the same like shield agent doctors that were taking care of him in the secret Yeah, agree that they were in so yeah, so joe russo The question is a hydra not gonna like confirm be sure and confirm it. Yeah, I'm surprised they even Like these doctors the ones that have access to him. Yeah Yeah hmm So What do you propose like, uh, I'm not saying like they couldn't have done anything But what do you propose? What if I'm hydra? I have all of my doctors work on him quote-unquote work on him They don't save him. They're not looking to save him and then as soon as he's dead we incinerate that fucking body Yeah, yeah, yeah, or I don't know even like if you want to be double check I don't know just like find a way to cause more injuries to him. Like yeah, or don't don't save him a peak Um, I guess what I'd say to that is is it possible that because Sharon Carter was there She would make sure immediately that Uh, the doctors that take care of him are uh, are part of shield and not uh, not hydra Fury doesn't trust anyone and she isn't aware of anything. Yeah, that's a good point Not to mention I feel like hydra like robert redford would want to make sure of this one. This is super important Yes, yeah fury represents a huge risk Yeah, and if they're capable of like pretending to be police officers like surely Yeah, they could you know pretend to be the doctors that take him in Well, I would argue they have more power than shield does or any of the good guys That way Yeah, they they have plenty of ways to stop him Pretty much. Yeah Fury's plot armor. I think that's the last instance of fury plot armor. So there's that yeah Oh wait. No, no, it's not. No, it isn't There's there's some more in the final battle. Uh, but yeah, then cap goes up So he's been told not to trust anyone goes up to robert redford They have a conversation and cap tells robert redford fury told me not to trust anyone Stupid it's probably the worst thing you could tell him Defeats the whole purpose of being told not to trust anybody to tell somebody that And of course the only reason this is happening is because fury has implicated captain america by going to his apartment instead of hiding out So good job fury and it's worse than telling him he certainly said nothing. In fact, what cap should have said Oh, I missed a criticism from earlier I'm going to do this real quick. I'm sorry about this. So when fury is giving his cover story says Wife kicked me out. You know how it is not sure How many friends I got left or something like that what he should be saying because he's an idiot in that scene He should be saying cap. I have no fucking idea. What's going on? The police attacked me the police We need to talk to shield immediately. We need to get all of our men on this like something's going on There's some mercenary group. I know it Basically, you need to give off the sense that shield is 100% cool. We like shield shield's good Something happened to me out there. I'm gonna need pierce or whoever else to help me out with this. This is nuts And instead he's like Imagine shield listening, right? They know what happened in that street fury knows they know what happened and he goes Oh, hey cap. Yeah, I'm here because my wife kicked me out Like dude, it's so suspicious. You're giving away like and the idea that pierce is like, okay So he's obviously we listen to that. We know you've told you something. What do you tell you when he goes that? I shouldn't trust anyone Like Oh, but I think really dumb is almost I don't even understand what is going on. I don't mind when he says this I can't wrap my head around why you would say this from the stupid Um, but yeah, so we so then so then you know cap leaves The strike team is immediately there to arrest him which makes you wonder why strike team wasn't available to immediately arrest If you're aware, we've already covered that so the elevator fight scene is is actually kind of dumb Um, there's there's a lot of things that are really confusing about the way that it's arranged in terms of what's happening Like as soon as they hit the emergency brakes guys turn around But like three or four guys are just struggling in the corner But what we know is that all of the people in the elevator are there to get capped like every single one If they're not fighting with each other, they're just kind of fumbling for some reason If I could just make it clear. Okay, because I could I'm showing this to the people at home So just try and follow what I'm saying you guys um So guy turns to hit cap cap seems to move the hand then that guy drops his weapon and seems to crouch with Rumlow some other guy and some other guy Having their hands near around him Then the fight continues and we've shown again that they moved backwards somehow is the rum Let's call them the rumlow team is rumlow and like two other guys maybe three and then rumlow like Falls over and cowers for like 10 seconds He's just out of the fight and if you this is one shot that fucking baffles me There is yep They're dealing with cap. They're all trying to get him and if you the more muscle you have by the way the better But in the background, they're just going Yeah, like what's going on? Yeah, I've noticed too If they had done this cap would not have been able to escape if they all like hit him add more muscle Yeah, and rumlow is still just recovering from nothing this whole fight until he finally gets involved And then starts tasering but by this point it's already over. You've already screwed it Even though it should have been impossible to screw this up. So and again if cap captured the movie ends dead in its tracks And I find it really interesting that they're not will if they were willing to kill him It would have been easy to get him, but they're not until he Manages to get outside of sort of the potential of being caught. So then they might have they try to minigun him And if it were that close to being willing to kill him I feel like this is a really risky move, but at the same time it probably should have worked and it didn't so I don't know Yeah, yeah um, so one thing that you've brought up was that um That there's no way like they should have failed uh the operation in the elevator. Am I getting there right or They should have captured him When you got I know that many bodies and if they all grip a limb, he's basically you can't move If the four guys in the background hadn't been there grappling with each other for some reason They would have had enough force to pin both of his arms down So the concern I have with that criticism is that well We're dealing with a super soldier right here and like this with this guy like even one kick could knock somebody out So I think My the the criticism I have towards the scene is the fact that instead of just having the strike team Point their guns so steve can't move Uh instead they decide to crowd all these men in an elevator because that's what I think is the actual risk here You know like if he takes out something like if he kicks someone hard enough they could fall right out the window That's a really I risky thing. I go in that screen I go in just real real real quick I just want to say so that initial kick that he does that probably fucks that guy's in the up completely completely Agreed but had three men been grappling his legs It's over You can't and then you attach both of his arms with those magnetic things and and then you just electrocute him freely like he's done Because that's what we see in this in the screenshot here is two people nearly push his arm up So I think it's safe to say three people. It's it's up. It's it's gone It's up there because I mean rumbler kicks are hard enough that it sticks. Um, so yeah Three people it's done It seems like uh captain america is the kind of character that is Incredibly vulnerable in a situation like this if the attackers are very competent. I can see um, you put black panther in the same situation and he's in a suit Um, it's gonna play out I don't think you can stop him now because especially with his new suit where it just detonates But like kappa is is a lot more vulnerable than that. And so in order, uh, in order for him to overpower This many people, um, they have to be Uh, unusually bad at their job for people that are like shield agents, you know, well, these are strike team They're like the swat of shield. Well, yeah, they're very familiar with cap too This would only make sense basically if uh, if these were not like military trained people like normal cops or something Yeah, maybe yeah, but not these guys. Um, but but so we have that and so he opens the door drop the shield He cuts the wires. Um, I'm I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that he knew that the emergency brakes would kick in Um, I still think I I don't know how much about this Like it's gotta be unusual for the the wires to be like on display. I I guess I'll let it go It just seems weird to me as a design. I I guess I don't want to get caught up on that. Um, immediately So he falls to a floor that could not have been planned because the wires were cut He opens the door There are strike team on there are their strike teams on every single floor of this building How could they have possibly known that's where he'd be? Yeah, I'm well, I'm fine with them knowing where he'd be. It's just that how did you wait? No, why quickly what? Yeah, yeah, well, that's what I mean when I say knowing where he is like, how would they That's how I frame it. That's okay. Yeah, yeah Sure. Uh, so that happens closest to the doors for whatever reason they can't open the doors I don't know why um, then comes the funny bit Then he yeah, he jumps out of the building lands on the ground and you know what I'm okay with him surviving That's super soldier and he's Yeah, the shield super soldier. It's all good. Yes, but Are you kidding me? He's heading for the garage locked down the bridge How long does it take to get to the garage and how long does it take for the doors to close? The doors are closing He does put his helmet on it's really absurd It's it's it's it's ridiculous and remember and remember to be clear with all of these every time that he stopped the movies over Deadness tracks. He's caught inside happens mill 20 million are dead Yeah, 20 million. That's right. So uh, and again the same standard applies to far from home But there's more of this happening in the winter soldier. So this so I think it's important to clarify right anytime peter dies the consequences peter dies and his friends die and some people in London die and some kind of underplays a lot of people in london die. Well, that's consequence Of course, misterio becomes a victorious But the important part with misterio is that he's not looking to destroy the world or anything He's actually not looking to pretend to be a hero Yeah, he he wants to do this so that it's like, oh, i'm vengeance level threat next iron man And then whenever threats come he wants to the argument i'm trying to make here is that consequentially He ends up fighting on behalf of earth to stop threats like he would do that He's not a good guy compared to yeah, he's a bad person That's the stakes but the stakes is if uh, if uh, if if captain America loses 20 million people die and the world is drastically different If we're to believe the threat Tony stark is killed. Stephen strange is like, oh, Tony. Yes, too. So when when the aliens come back probably fucked Well, they're gonna kill every single avenger pretty much Yeah, um, so there's that just to to put it into context and yeah, then he drives and they shoot at him To try and kill him with the quinge yet and he dodges it So I guess I don't care about killing him now. Um, and then he takes down the quinge and it's like, all right So that's that's that part done. Why do they lose him? Oh, yeah, how did they lose him? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that. Why how do they lose track? Yeah, it's like you would You would have thought that you know after he busted the turbine of uh of a quinge They're like, oh, we need after he traveled at the speed of light to get to the garage to get out of the bridge that At that point you'd be seriously Also, it's really useful if you put all this uh to the public but look what he's done And obviously edit it favorably, but just be like he's destroy. He's killing members of our team he's destroying properties because he's um He's connected to fury. He's trying to generate loads of money by hiring missionaries to blah, blah, blah It's really easy to frame him with everything we have. Yeah And so then you can have the the world at large helping you with the manhunt. Yep Keep an eye out somebody by the way Gonna go ahead and it's not plot. Well, I guess there's a form of plot armor not in terms of his health Just being not found. It's like he's never ever finds an ever. Look at that. He's getting found Yeah In the hospital where fury died They certainly have agents posted there dude But remember the amount of instances where cap and that just get around and nobody sees them Throughout the whole movie. It's a meme of they have cap. They have a cap and glasses. So it's fine. It's like that's Funny, but it's not true Yeah, um So, uh Should we just keep going or do you want to do you want to get back on to fuck because that's that's kind of a big block If you got no, I'd like to I'd like to just go through more of the winner soldier personally Oh, um What what is there much to be said about the scene with nat except for the fact that she says like most of the intelligence agency Doesn't believe that he exists. Well, that's gonna be relevant in summary We'll come back to it The next thing is we find our project inside. It's getting pushed forward. Yeah. Yeah, and then then we get to the the realism Well, there's a couple of just we got to make sure that this is understood. It's gonna matter a little bit later So they take the usb the usb that can't be cracked by like Fury with all the help of shield with his clearance, right? She puts it into a laptop in some like store That was what I was about to. Oh, I thought you were okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no No, we weren't there yet. So yeah, they go to a max store and plug in this flash drive In the in the max store to to try and track. Yeah, they're trying to figure out what's on it, but it's encrypted um, and what we what what nat says there is it's encrypted but She can track a hostile malware And that's what apparently leads her to find the hydra outpost Now this is very confusing to me Is she tracking the hostile malware or is she tracking where the algorithm came from? The film is being very unclear about what exactly she's looking for And why she's able to track it at all finding out where it came from Oh, okay. And to which it's like how it's it's it's an ai It's an ai that is uh rewriting it every time that she's trying to crack this thing So she's I guess trying to track like the source Of this ai the source of the ai being zola. So so now you two have given two different answers though So sk you think he's tracking Where the algorithm came from and southpaw you believe that he is tracking She is tracking the person who is rewriting the uh The the the thing to block them. So zola. Yes, that makes more sense than track track where the algorithm. Wow I feel like there's a problem with both of these, but I don't know which one I'm taking it from the line where it says I'm taking it from the line where it says this is a program that she'll develop to track Hostile malware. So if you can't read the file, maybe we can find out where it came from What is what is this if the flash drive or what exactly is it? Like what is this? I think it's the files on it. It's it's the files on the files on there for project insight can be used to track hostile malware Um, so I'm gonna try program does that so so this she says i'm gonna try running a tracer This is a program that she'll develop to to yeah, there we go. Yeah, yeah There we go. So to make because i'm gonna lay that this is honestly Like I don't blame the fact that we have to go over this a couple times. It's really strange We got the laptop she plugs in the usb. We know she can't access the usb's Secrets because it's all to do with insights the algorithm and stuff So she says when she's trying to access it something's preventing her an ai that's like re-scrambling It's a pretty clever one. I think that's zola Right stopping her from getting into the usb Whatever I guess he's connected to the internet right that was yeah, I was gonna bring that up all the way so anyway the uh The what she tracks then is either Him scrambling it or the like origin of this usb. I don't know how she's able to track either of those Yeah, I'm not sure why that's the only thing I can come up with is that they wanted her to The best justification is that She says this is a program she'll develop to track impostile malware. So I guess the program itself is capable of doing that Why would hydra have allowed a program to be able to track one of their most important assets? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't know if if hydra themselves Like allowed this or like have had any control and hydra pop a shield by They're fully infiltrated shield, but we don't so it seems like um the the The answer is to how much of shield is controlled by hydra exactly Seems to be changing My my impression is shield is going to be a mixture of people that are like Actual legit og shield agents, right? They're the good guys and then you have the hydra moles that are within shield I agree with we go with this. I agree with you. Wait, wait, so they have Technology x let's just say in totality. None of that is going to be kept away from hydra like secret people They'll know what capabilities they have. Why would they allow? Uh, they will know what these these programs do. Why would they not design? Whatever their super secret stuff is with a block it like can't be tracked by this stuff Because I have insider knowledge on this. Yeah, shield. I've no reason to keep this from them So they don't even know they exist They'll be like, oh, hey bill like, you know, you work on but remember ps is literally the boss of the like sector and stuff He's hydra I I I don't know. I don't know. It could possibly um, they don't want to risk making it look like the Uh, this program was sabotaged, but I don't know. I would write something Honestly, I think the most reasonable interpretation is they actually want them to track this to take them to the trap That's another thing that you could Well, so so this is the great part Well, I was gonna say if we can see that there are no other problems Yeah, either way, because I was gonna say Did there I take a guess real quick. So, um That means that they would know that they'd have to leave from the mall to go all the way to that bunker Yes, right So they would know what roads they're taking. They should be able to track. They would know that they're gonna be there. Yeah So basically they could have sent like the quinjets over there Um, they could have had the strike team ready like once they're there. It's like Yeah, you're surrounded by a bunch of hard men. That's over. Yeah, it's over before it even starts. Yeah, we could If we want to go to the bunker like of course, there was a million options They had like what hydra's resources are in this movie It's just it's so plentiful that they have to be stupid for cap and and widow to to succeed Exactly. Yes hearts. Uh, there was uh, there's two things on that One they should have called iron man by now. Um, they definitely should have called iron man by now But they never do not now or not at any point in the movie Yeah, I can I can agree with nick fury, but um with uh with captain america He doesn't like he doesn't know He trusts like widow more than he trusts cap Uh, I think I just yeah, we need to be clean on this So it is categorically true that he would call tony. Tony is 100 anti system He's he's super powerful and he's he recently exposed the shield were developing weapons Yeah, and he recently almost died to save the world like he's very much a good person and if you can't trust tony Uh, I don't I don't see how you can trust anyone else Because remember that's part of shield and I would ask you that um, this is so incredibly important We're so outmatched outgunned and outnumbered that calling him is like our only shot If we get iron man in we we can actually make a difference. I do want to point out, um, tony being willing to Sacrifice himself to save the world. Um, I don't believe that Uh, there's no one in hydra that would have been willing to sacrifice really what I'm going with that I mean he's like good of heart Confirmed like that that changed I I guess I was countering an argument that didn't exist my bad Like I thought you might have thought that steve didn't think of tony as like a good person. Maybe Um, um Well, the what I was going for was that he doesn't know for sure Like maybe there's a chance that he's part of hydra, but then at the same time That's not a part of hydra, but he trusts her completely. I was gonna say that and same with shirt and card Yeah Yep, as someone who doesn't even know and sam somebody who's only met for a couple instances who could have been a hydra plant Um, so yeah, you got that which is and also like they're not getting out of that shopping center anyway. Um, but yeah, so No worries. So, um Oh and also something to note, right? So like I would say that any thing of like, oh Mysterio is stupid gets dwarfed by oh hydra a big organization With lots of intelligence and like operatives who are really skilled is stupid I don't think it's close Like any that any oversight that mysterio could have made out of which he didn't make a whole lot Are like not even comparable to how many hydra makes over and over again to mysterious plant eventually and you know Yeah, you know what we get into that plan and we'll get into hydra's plant too But before we get into that shall we talk about? The bunk well Okay to come back. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we can No, no, no, I want to like I'm trying to just go through the bulk of the the winter soldier criticisms Uh, like uh, this is just the time for us to just I don't know it's fluff. We're just hanging out Yeah, sure. Um, why you try to get through the bulk of the winter soldier criticism It'll take a while if they really want to do I think this after the after the bunker in zola will probably swap back Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got another Sure Yeah, I wonder if anyone out there's listening right now like man I went to soldier film. Hmm. I don't know. It's almost it's almost like it's almost like hot takes are actually rather uh credible sometimes Well, I know there are people out there There are people out there who will listen to all of the criticisms when a soldier and be like, okay You wouldn't it picking for most of that Which is It's fine. It's gonna happen But yeah, so so so the zola scene let's uh, oh, do you have something to say rex? I was saying I think there there are gonna be people like that. Um, you will just not see I mean we It doesn't matter if they're gonna not see the Snyderverse of the last jet. Oh my god It doesn't matter if it's the Snyderverse or if it's tlj or anything like that Um, sometimes you just can't reach everybody. Some people are just Some people are tism. Some people are puritism, but that is all right carry on you can't SK uh SK you Yeah, so um, all right So with the zola thing so we're already talked about that should have had people there if if the more likely thing Which is it's all allured them there So the people they're ready to arrest them But anyway, they go in to the port and they find the hidden Bunker now. This is not a huge issue But like I do find it weird that peggy and howard didn't know that zola was here when it was housed in the old shield headquarters And they would have had to excavate a lot like A lot is an understatement Well, because remember we we have we have a thing 200 000 feet square feet of data banks It's a lot. Um And and then they scanned a little thing that's like, oh, here's the key prompt and obviously Scanning the number like figuring out which buttons have been pressed does not tell you the order that they need to be pressed in And four buttons a lot of combos. So Dave shouldn't have even been able to get it. Talk about valley forge Valley forge. What no That's an easter. If you if you get that reference you get you get you get Yeah, you would chat you just won. Yeah, you just got one you won about you did it Congrats. Yeah, you did. I'm proud of you Whoever gets the reference first just wins the debate. Fuck it. Yeah, all right so They say the tech they go in and now we're now we're in the part where they're in the the room with zola This technology is ancient black widow says the tech is from 1972 So in 1972 they had the capability of creating uh zola's ai now. I supposed to be clear now Whether it's exactly zola like they transferred his brain into data or it is a copy of him It is a distinction without a difference because This zola that they're speaking to Thinks like a human being and is like operating at incredible capacity Well in excess of like javas who I imagined was cutting edge who was made in 2008 But you think so we already have that javas So What it's the idea of like so we have created somebody who seems to be like a human being In terms of the way that he's able to think that's actually really complicated Uh more so than creating somebody like javas who you can tell to be like here do this do this do that Who has a semblance of a personality, but it's clearly not like a thinking Person in the same way that zola is he's an impressive ai javas, but I think that's impressive for sure enough to be like Wait, they had this like they had this 30 plus years ago. Yeah That's that's pretty nuts Uh, and you would think the technology would have improved in that period of time. So immediately Oh, as you say that there is no distinguishable difference between uh zola being in the back of the room with a microphone Reacting to them in real time than the computer doing it. It's incredible technology wizard of all and And that makes you wonder Why did you only do this once? Why have you not done this for many people? Conversation, let's do it. Yeah. Well, do you guys disagree with that that they should have made multiple different ai's like this? Well, I suppose like uh, the question comes down to um, how many Uh people in hydra is it going to be worth going through all this effort and also, um, whether zola would necessarily want it like Want people to know how to do this besides themselves Okay, so I guess step one Anybody who is particularly intelligent or resourceful or skilled in any Particular field would be really worthwhile because having zola on these computers allows you to create the algorithm That's going to let you take over the world. Why can't imagine? Yeah, or just copies of solos If not just other people who are really intelligent inside of our shield And what so what ends up changing ultimately if they have multiples, uh ai's like this like what what's um So if because they're about why would like why would you create any at all then? Well, they're on the cusp of taking over the world Yeah, but 1972 you're telling me nobody particularly important arose in What a period of nearly 40 years that there was nobody else who came around who are you like, hmm? You know what we could use you on a computer Yeah, that depends that depends on whether zola would want it to even be possible. Why do we assume that zola wouldn't want him Replaced do you think that having to replace him? Because in the first Avenger, we know that zola, um, when he's captured, uh, cells out, uh, red, uh, red skull He cares very much about, you know, self-preservation You have the, um Wait, uh Wait, no, hold on. Actually, we need to stop you there So we think that he has a sense of self-preservation, but he allows himself to be blown up. Yes. That's a problem Yeah, that's the I would say that it's very out of character Wait, so I agree with that. I think we've gone a little bit. We've fast-forward a little bit. So you're saying I'm No, I cut you off deliberately. I'm sorry. I just I want to go one by one because I just want to clarify So you said, um, sense of self-preservation as as is that reasoning for why he wouldn't want what So if if someone smarter comes along, uh, and is basically like smarter than zola or as smart as zola and they don't need to Keep zola, especially given how much space, uh, he occupies, uh, with all those like computers and shit They don't need to use zola anymore So my account of that would be that people have different skills And that zola is not Just immediately replaceable That people will have different skills and that there could be somebody who has skills that zola doesn't have Who would still be really beneficial to put on a computer i.e Tony Stark would be somebody I would want on a computer if I could Uh, bruce banner, and I'm not saying that these would be the people that they'd select But can you give me examples got tony? They would it have to be loyal to hydra though? Yeah, well, there's gonna be plenty. We're gonna be high-level agents. It's like and zola zola is a mind Not as a intelligence 9 AI, you know, it's a highlight the point though Like tony stark and bruce are both really smart But they are smart at different things and that would be the same in hydra There would be people who are better than zola at certain things but things that zola would be better at than them You don't really lose anything by keeping both of them online So i'm not sure why you would ever replace one since he seems to be functioning pretty well Well, he's he's designed. They will domination plans in 2012 right or 14 14 So what I would bring up is that with zola, let's say like, um Let's say there's somebody who is who has all of his skills But either more skills or or they're even better or actually both. Let's go with both All right, they have all of zola skills. They're better at them and they have more skills. So That would make zola, um obsolete And they wouldn't really have a reason to keep them around So you can't simultaneously argue that there is going to be someone who is like zola plus But also not anybody worthwhile saving that's completely different from him, but really impressive and also, um That there's a couple of things as well. Um, why do we assume that zola alone has the knowledge to make this possible? Uh, because he's be the only one who's intelligent enough to to make this and also you said somebody who is more intelligent Better than him in every way. Wouldn't he just be able to figure out how to put himself on computers? I also disagree with the premise that he was terminal. He needs someone to do this to him and for him Yes, someone else had to be involved. He couldn't have done this all on his own There would have been people involved with getting the equipment there People who would have been involved in like actually transferring his mind or whatever maintenance, too One that is they have to understand over the world would have had all the information So surely he would have had all of the information necessarily either I'm sorry. Why do we assume that? Why do we assume that zola alone is the person who did it and who has all of the information? Because we don't have any confirmation that anyone else does Yeah, but we don't have any confirmation that anybody else doesn't Yeah, so we're out of stalemate here But we'll not quite because we know that someone has to maintain this Just someone had to do it for him It's much more reasonable to infer that people would know how to replicate this than not I mean, they'd probably try to figure it out But I don't know if they would be able to also I don't buy that he doesn't want hydra to have access this information It is incredibly advantageous I think you cut out like at the last part. I oh, I said I don't buy that he wouldn't want hydra to have this It's incredibly advantageous and his goal is beyond his life Hmm Do I guess while you're uh thinking All right, go ahead. I was thinking um Just while you guys are thinking um I feel as if someone who is shown to be Uh, who really wants to put self-preservation Is one of their big goals that one of the greatest possible ways to Make manifest that self-preservation is to create as many versions of yourself as possible Multiple use. Yeah, that's that's more so the issue I take with with zola But they don't create more copies of him because they say like, oh, well, they they cost me zola It's like, okay. Why don't you have backups of him, you know, why did why did they kill him for this? Why did they kill him? Why did they kill him? Well, yeah, that's the thing they should have just sent a ground team there instead of an airstrike They shouldn't have sent them there all they should have sent them to a fake place and had a bomb in it Yes But You know what even if you're gonna send them to the fake place Oh boy zola explaining his evil plan like this is this is another break right before you slip that in I just wanted to clarify as well just so a definitive. I know you guys didn't agree. Didn't disagree with this But you know that little usb they slot the usb into to get like a description Just fucking put a bomb in that it activates as soon as you put the usb and boom they're dead like warm up And great. Anyway, karen Uh, but yeah, sorry. Wait, wait, wait, wait Put a bomb and like are you talking about those usb slaw having a bomb in it? Yeah, like it doesn't have to be a real one. You just make it look like it is and then blow it up You could even be in the desk It's basically like the usb slaw and zolas because they know that they're heading over to zola as they could set that up Real quick well moller. There there's a pretty easy counter to that We know that the nazis are very very uh, they have a lot of paranoia when it comes to bombs and desks at this point But yeah, so Zola explaining his evil plan and everything that follows afterward is a break in the story that is equivalent to the fury assassination scene. It is another just, oh, we are shattered going forward. So the big important part is that no matter what is said about the content of Zola's speech, Steve and Nat did not know that Hydra was active and they had no reason to believe that, but Zola told them this and he told them that Project Insight was a Hydra plan and he said, oh, we're going to like cleanse the world. And he shows this while he's showing footage of the Insight Helicarrier's guns. This, this is too much. He's told them too much. It's over. He shouldn't have told them this. He shouldn't have said anything close to this. Okay. So how would he, how would Zola have expected that Cap and Nat would have been able to survive little stories of rubble crushing both of them. So this is my favorite part because it's a problem either way. They shouldn't have survived with how deep underground they were. They're dead. They're dead. It's over. And if they're dead, remember 20 million people dead. That's the end of the movie. Right. Even if you are incredibly confident, Zola had a lot of options here. He could have just locked the door on them, said nothing, waited for them to get blown up. That was always an option. He didn't need to tell them anything. He could have just stayed silent. He gives them extensive information. It's so unnecessary. Yeah. He tells them so much. Pretty, you bring up locking the door. Does he have the ability to do that? Yes. He locks them in when the, when the thing comes. Oh, yeah. Okay. So he could have locked them in, said nothing, dead, dead. Actually, he probably shouldn't have locked the door because they would have gotten the elevator and that would spell disaster for them. Certainly. I don't spell disaster for them. Certainly. They are disaster ridden no matter what. Yeah. If this was operated. It's just, it's weird the decision to lock the door. But again, because that's still telling your plan and then locking them in. Zola is supposed to be a very like top level genius. So remember, we've got a lot of problems with them even being in this facility. They shouldn't be there. They shouldn't be able to get there. They should have been captured before they got there. They shouldn't have been able to get into that room. However, once they're in, just lock them in and then blow them up with the missile. Don't tell them anything. And if you want to have your little Zola victory lap, you just tell them, hey captain, look who it is. Me motherfucker. I'm killing you. Yeah. Yeah. You could do that. Cause that's the thing. That was number one. Don't tell them anything. But if he wants to gloat, if he wants to gloat lie, just be like, hey, I'm alive. I'm going to kill you. Don't tell them anything. Telling them about the robot he's built in Australia that's going to rise up and destroy the world. Yes. Tell him something false. Lie to him. My army of kangaroos destroys the world. You think about that is the way that he approaches it either way is not necessarily a detriment. Well, as far as he should believe, not a detriment to Hydra's success. So I can see like, I don't see why he is a dude. What if they have a phone open to someone who's an ally right now? There is he can answer. So there's so many words. There is no reason at all to risk this. He simply does. And we're really lucky he does. So you mean like, let's say if they're, if they're broadcasting this, if they're recording it, let's say they're on, by the way, how does that phone not screw them over anyway? Like that phone must be shield connected. It must be like how else it's black. Whatever. But what if she has a call open to Iron Man right now? There's a, there's another layer of a returnation to this that I think you guys might be missing. I don't think it's, I don't think it's even necessary for them to be here in the first place because this thumb drive is containing something that was downloaded off the Lumarian star, which Jasper Sitwell was stationed on. And Nick Fury got like people were going after Nick Fury specifically because of the business with the Lumarian star. The problem is that, well, so that is an option. But again, it's important to reiterate they didn't even know that Hydra existed at this point. That's how catastrophic this whole scene is. They didn't know that Hydra was a thing until Zola told them and him telling them that enables the rest of the movie to happen. There's something going on with like Shield being compromised. They don't know the Hydra exists and they don't know that has anything to do with Project Insight. That's the big part. Hydra having infiltrated Shield fully is a mind fuck. That's insane. That's like huge information changes everything. If Shield was, they've got agents inside Shield that are fucking with everything. That's a little different. Yeah, I think I can roll with the idea that, you know, okay, it could be a risk if they're broadcasting this on call, which would pass on the information to other people. Yeah, I think that would hold. I would say when making this criticism, it's probably the first thing you want to bring up because we didn't even think that this was going to be brought up. I mean, I didn't watch all the streams where you talked about Winter Soldier, but it's probably one of the most important things you want to bring up. Like, why? That would be a risk. Oh, sure. And I just want to, I'm showing people at home because I just find this amusing. They get into the elevator, right? All right, people at home. Yeah, I'm addressing you. So can you see this elevator shaft? They're at the bottom of that, right? At the bottom of it. So if anyone listening who's like, what do you mean five floors or five stories? They have five stories worth of matter falling on them after a missile hit them. And then it cuts to them moving a rock away and they're on the surface. Yeah, that is insane. And the best part is that Hydra shows up a little late and they get away. It's like, why weren't you there? Hydra should be here already. They should be able to track them. Yeah, not to mention like considering how long it should have taken for them to dig out of there if they were going to do that. Hydra is only about 40 minutes away, like a 40 minute flight away from DC. So sorry, Jersey is a 40 minute flight away from DC where they started. So the big thing is they're already there. If they find this missile, they know where they are. They're already there. It's done. It's over. And if we go with that they wanted to bait them to this place, then they've got even more time to work with. Yes. That's right. So that's it folds onto itself. This is what happens with this Zola thing. It's so many things. It can't function. And I think my favorite part is it's just the little cherry on top Zola's out of character. He's not like this. Not in first of entry is not. What is? He is not the type to do this. He's intelligent and reserved and wants to preserve his. He's pragmatic. He is not a braggadocious arrogant person in the sense that he would taunt Captain America and tell him his plan and be like, well, you're going to be dead. So it's okay. It's not something Zola would do. Mustache twirly. Yeah. It's very mustache twirly. It's like, oh, that's really. Yeah. Bad. Bad, bad, bad. Should we flip back to far from home? Far from home. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I'm fine with that. So one thing, and this is in regards to the stereo's plan with the elementals. So the thing is, is that if there were other Avengers that showed up for the, for the elemental threats, his plan basically fails. So for, for example, if we have, if we have Captain America there and laser blasts get shot at the drones, it's like, okay, that's, that's game over. The drones get destroyed. The, the illusion is pretty obvious. Either, either the drones get destroyed or the laser blasts go through the illusion entirely. Wait. Sorry to clarify. So with the elementals, not future threats, right? Well, with future threats, too, actually, because if the future threats would be like illusions that he makes up, right? Yeah. We don't have reason to believe that he will do illusions anymore after the London one. That is the Avengers level threat that gets him a seat at the table. I feel like that opens like a new can of worms. So I think we should save that specifically for later. Okay. Yeah. Sure. So, so the elements was right. So the idea. So, so if I got it clearly, like he's fighting the water one and then Dr. Strange shows up to help out. Is that the idea? Yeah. Stuff like that, you know, cause Dr. Strange was shown to manipulate the water and end game. Okay. So I guess the things that work in his favor is the first elementals are unexpected in locations that are far away from where the Avengers tend to be. So he could have the threat appear and neutralize it before there'd be any chance of anybody getting there to help him out and destroy the drones. Hmm. So my question there would be, okay. So with Dr. Strange, he can just see this like in the news, same with the sorcerers, and he can just portal there like immediately and he's already there. Wait. So what? There'd be like a news crew waiting as soon as the monster shows up? Well, no, no, no. I'm just saying like there would be live reports of the situation out there. In the middle of like, what, wasn't the first one of like a school village in Mexico? Oh, Venice, Mexico. Yeah. So I'm talking about the first couple, right? The things that get him on board and then, so it leads into this point. As soon as Mysterio makes contact with Fury, he's now got access to like, oh, who's available? Who's not available? So he knows this information now. That can factor into his plan. Right. But that can change it like any moment in time. Yeah, it couldn't. And he has to adjust his plan. Right. But I don't think he possibly adjusts his plan if Dr. Strange shows up. Yeah. It's over. So if he gets told, all right. So Dr. Strange is unavailable and then he does not show up. Do you mean like instantly without anybody being able to know? Because like if he's so unavailable that they can't even get contact with him, is he even on this planet or in this universe at this point in time? So the weird thing is Talos being Nick Fury, he says to the real Nick Fury at the end that people keep asking where the other Avengers are and he doesn't know what to say. That's right. Yeah. So does he not know how to actually contact them? Well, I think it's the idea of what is he meant to tell other people about what the Avengers are up to. Maybe Talos actually does know, or maybe he doesn't in terms of Dr. Strange, but we know that he's unavailable. But also it's a risk you've got to take if you want to do this project. He just has to take the risk. Really big reward if it pays off for you though. But like if it doesn't pay off, it's like game over. Is it a really big risk when he's got very measured ways that he can get information about who's who and where they are? Like how big of a risk is it? I would just picture, by the way, say he's battling one of these things and then Dr. Strange arrives in a portal and he's like, hello, Mysterio. Like, you know, what's the best way to deal with this? And then he goes, stay back, doctor. And then he fires right into it and kills it and ends the illusion because he knows that he's run out of time if Dr. Strange shows up. But what if Dr. Strange just shows up in attacks for, like he just tries to manipulate. Oh, okay. Yeah, then that might cause problems for him. Yeah, the plan can fail. He can definitely fail. Right. The plan doesn't account for this. I think he has done a pretty good job accounting for it by getting in early to get his, same, but like he got in early to get contact with Fury and then from there he can get information about who's available. I think it's actually pretty clever to be honest with you. I'm just out of curiosity. How would you, how would you do better than what he's done? So one example I would go with is because, so here's the thing, you don't, because Iron Man, he's not a magic based superhero. He's a tech based superhero. So with the Mysterio, you didn't even have to go through the magical route. You could go with the technological route. Another thing is that the threats themselves, they don't have to be like, I'm confused. What do you mean? What I mean is like, so with Mysterio, you know how he makes it so his powers are like magical? Yeah. So he doesn't have to do that if he just makes himself a tech based superhero like Iron Man. How could he do that? Well, for example, if he were to create, yeah, the drones. Yeah, but wait. But remember, like Mysterio has got like a real suit. If he has to pretend that he's like Iron Man, he's going to always need to have like some sort of fake Iron Man suit around that he can physically have when he needs to interact with people. That seems like a big wrench to throw into his plan. Sure. Like an extra thing he has to account for all the time. Well, that's a lot better than having to account for trying to trick Doctor Strange that these illusions are real. I'm curious how this, so you're picturing like the drones would scan an Iron Man suit on top of him or something similar. And then when he battles the illusion enemies, he's firing missiles and they're all like real missiles from the drones. Is that kind of how you say it? Not necessarily. So what I mean is like, if he uses like the drones, let's say the drones, that's his ability, right? That's how he uses, what he uses to fight people with. Sorry, were you going to say that? Oh, go ahead. Okay, so yeah. Let's say he's like tech based and that's basically his abilities using the drones to fight. Let's say instead of elementals, it's more like realistic things like, I don't know, robots or something like that. That could be an example. So if the fights were more so within like technological based, more grounded, that would make it easier to trick people versus going full on the magical round. So a big part of Mysterio's shtick is marketing himself as a really cool hero. I think it undermines it pretty significantly if you are Drone Man who has drones that you use. Also, drones that are very similar to the tech that's used by Tony Stark, that's going to raise a couple of red flags. So I don't think that we were talking about him just being Drone Man. More like having, instead of projecting the character of Mysterio, like he's made up as a Doctor Strange style sorcerer, rather someone that's more like Iron Man. And I think that that could also make a lot of sense, especially if, for instance, the hologram of Mysterio that we see pulls out, let's say, a flamethrower. But it's actually like the drone's flamethrower. It's like, okay, that makes sense. And it's actually doing damage. And it'd be very difficult to debunk how he's doing this. But a big question to remember is why would he care to do that? If, as his plan is playing out right now, he is able to deal with this with no other heroes that are magical to account for. And he's super extravagant, too. Yes, he is. It's very showman-like. So he's trying to raise attention to himself, even though this is extremely risky, especially if other superheroes show up. Right. He is trying to present himself as like, I'm the new Iron Man. Look at me. Big ol' hero man coming in to save the day. The public aspect and the inspiring thing and how cool he is is like an element of it. I'm also a little bit... Just to clarify, all plans from villains will typically come with risks. Right. But what I'm saying is that going with the more technological hero route is less of a risk compared to going on full on magical. You're already 10 steps back. Who would he be fighting? Like, he's saying he'd be fighting like... Is it drones, right? Robots? Yeah, like drones, robots, stuff like that. Like, you know, like the Iron Man 2 fight like he's up against all the, like the drone army. It's like, yeah, something like that. So he's fighting his own drones. Right. I don't know if he'd be able to convince them that he's defeating a willed ending threat at that point. Yeah, I don't think so. Not necessarily, because if you make it so... That's the element of it. So if these are world-ending threats, then where are the other Avengers exactly? That's a good question. I'm hoping the rest of the MCU answers this because they were told obviously when making this that they don't have access to any of them because they're all... We know where Wanda was, that's fair. As for Falcon Winter Soldier, I don't think we have the answer for those. They're also not really going to be able to help much. True. I'm assuming Doctor Strange is trapped in the multiverse or some shit. Yeah, something else. And Captain Marvel's all fine. I hope. Well, yeah, because Doctor Strange would have solved all of the issues of this film, the two TV shows. He should have been in all of these situations solving these problems. Yeah, he should be getting involved, but we don't know. Even if they were to... Let's say that the movie plays out totally differently and Mysterio wins and he's considered like the next Iron Man. He's not keeping this ruse up. True. Not with anyone with any extrasensory abilities. I'm willing to concede it will eventually have to be something he has to change. Like War Machine and Falcon, they both have the thermal imaging in their goggles or helmets. And Peter Parker. Yeah, Peter Parker's Spider Sense is what alerts him to there being drones in the Europol building being an illusion. And the fact that Peter Parker's Spider Sense is not working in this movie is very, very convenient. Like it's so incredibly lucky to... No, no, no, no, no. No. How? How? How? We're going to have to talk about the entire character arc of Peter Parker if we want to get into that. No, I'm saying, so Mysterio is hatching this plan at the same time that Peter Parker's Spider Sense is not working. Yeah, there's a good chance that... Look, watch me. So Mysterio has clearly planned this. Like Mysterio has designed all of this to happen in specific times. He's gunning for Peter right after he knows that Peter's father figure has died and he's struggling with it. They have constant eyes on Peter. So he knows that Peter is under significant stress. You wouldn't have to. He knows that he's stressed the fuck out. So Spider Sense starts working because he's stressed? Emotional stress. PTSD would probably affect your Spider Sense, yeah. But where's that in the film? There's a couple of examples. I would say the most prominent one is when he gets his photo taken and he starts to bug the fuck out. Yeah, I have a bit of a hand to all the stress talking to him and then it all zones out and comes like a hum of just... Yeah, it's one of the most standard ways of portraying PTSD in movies ever. Yes. So... Okay, so you're saying like because of the stress and PTSD that's what causing his like Spider Sense to not work? Well, that and his mixed sense of identity doesn't know what he's supposed to do. Yeah, so to tie into the broader thing to talk about something that's like I think good because we really haven't talked about much of that at all throughout this whole thing. Which is okay. Peter's arc, fundament, yeah it's fine because again these films have problems. Peter's arc fundamentally is tied to the sense that he doesn't know what his place or role is in this new world. He's struggling because his mentor has recently died. He died which is an important thing to remember too. The world has changed pretty significantly and he really has no support network at all to deal with any of these issues. And he fought in a war. I think it's safe to say he has PTSD or if not PTSD something comparable because we see that throughout the movie he is not in an emotionally sound place. And so now we have Beck show up who's really nice to him smart, he's friendly and supportive and he can talk to him about these problems and he reminds him a little bit of Tony Stark and that's all part of the plan to trick him into so that he can succeed in his plan. And so the Peter tingle and his inability to rely on that it is in a certain sense representative of he's just scattered. He can't think clearly he's really struggling but as May tells him in relation to trying to get with MJ but broadly in relation to the whole film just trust your instincts don't overthink it and you'll be fine. That's like kind of the thing that is the movie is moving towards so he thinks that Mysterio is his friend he's been betrayed later on at the end of the movie he's starting to finally like get that confidence in himself back. The confidence of like I have a place, I can make a difference I can help and yeah his Peter tingles back because he's there, he's in the zone now he's back, he's found his confidence again, he understands that he can find his own place in the world himself he just needs to do the best he can and that's what Spider-Man do. That's like the central arc so yes it does make sense that his Peter tingle isn't really working that well because he's not thinking clearly at all throughout the whole movie then why was it working at like the start of the the illusion sequence which, the start of which one? It's not about like the big scarecrow nightmare sequence what do you mean it's working it literally do you think that his Spider-Sense is tingling when he starts to think hmm something's wrong here or that he just figured it out? I would like to mention by the way I don't think it's binary no I don't think it is either because we know that he can dodge bullets and jump around and do crazy stuff but like the ability to do these incredibly amazing feats like what he does at the end of the movie I think that's like him at peak visually we get a big old representation when the final illusion begins doesn't Peter like take a big breath in? Yeah come on Peter tingle closes his eyes his eyes are closed and he's running around and kicking their arses because that's how on pointy is at the moment but as for that illusion I think it's safe I keep saying it I think it's reasonable to believe that he's just he's just noticed that something's wrong here like wait something's wrong and then you know he doesn't get hit what does he notice? um so when we were talking to Nick Fury and it's like oh hey um hey who'd you tell um oh this is really this is really bad who'd you tell and then maybe he's thinking like wait a minute Fury you picked me up from like wait hold on wait and then it's like oh something's wrong like Beck's here Parker I don't see how it's totally that's not the read that I got from that scene I'm confused so what reason did he have would you say he had to believe that I got a reference it's the same thing that sent me off it's when Fury the last thing he is is who else did you tell it's like yeah why is that relevant but that is relevant because he needs to protect them wow okay so I don't need proof for this because I literally in the cinema was like oh fuck none of this is real so like Peter did the same thing yes he had that same reaction the Mahler tingle and he was wrong you don't need a Peter tingle to figure out that something's wrong in that area and besides Peter tingle isn't off I don't know that we would conclude that it's not working well as as well as it should generally yeah I did not get the impression that it was his spider sense that alerted him to something not being real I thought he just figured it out like I did it came across differently to me at least okay it didn't come across that way to me so there's something about the camera angle on Peter and how it kind of moves from right to left that comes across as like they're trying to communicate that this is there's also if I recall correctly there's like a sound effect that plays when this happens we see I take it as he's thinking he's thinking this through and then it's like wait is this place even real yeah Parker I'm watching it right now just to see it's back he's here I'm watching again too what was the brought us here because it was a criticism of Mysterio's plan right so we what else is wrong with it so we were talking about the how did we get here yeah I was talking about extrasensory abilities including right so the people who would be able to see so I guess the thing is like Peter's ability to see through the illusion it's like what what or anybody's ability it's like what does that mean in terms of like what the illusion is doing like do we how do we know exactly how anybody with extrasensory abilities will be able to see this illusion right like if they see a giant rock monster how do they figure out that it's not a giant rock monster what would be their means of doing it also I also assume that Mysterio's planned this to try and get this all done as soon as possible quickly as possible so that he can be like I mean it gets his status prestige and then I would even go as far as saying right if Loki comes in with an army of aliens just like he did in 2012 you know for whatever you don't make it up and it's like okay Doctor Strange goes and he's like come on Mysterio I need your help and he's like oh okay I need to be like right I've got to just just come up with a way to attack these things while also oh well actually I can just send the drones because they're my drones now and they're real because I have Adith I have Adith that's right and if someone was like why aren't you there blasting them with lasers like the drones are better than me and I need to stay alive to control them cause once he gets the drone he's got a log also if we're getting really like if he's got his writer he could literally be like the longer I spend away from my home world the less power I have because I draw it from you know it's core or some shit and it's draining it like it's just so made up yeah but people believe it and if you eventually said I've lost all of my abilities but I do have the drones and I've been entrusted by the most like the legendary heroes of Spider-Man and well depending on how this film ended up he could have said that he could have said Peter trusted me and I'm gonna do the best I can I'm actually going to say that he's out because I really like him yeah I hope he comes back yeah I like him too he was kind of he was cool to go he was cool villain so isn't that the criticism that we brought up earlier about him posing as more of a tech based superhero than magic based oh well so the the counter I think that works is that he's going for the most extravagant display ever with all kinds of light smokes and just particle facts everywhere it's it's literally a show for the world to prove that he's the best hero ever and that that's why he settled on doing it this way because he can make it work he's one of the most vain characters in the MCU yes he is very vain like the cape he needs to make sure that there's no creases and stuff and he needs to test it out to make sure that it's it's fine he's arrogant isn't he no I said vain oh I know I mean they're kind of the same word um not strictly vain is like you're concerned with appearances arrogant means you think you're better than everybody else okay that's true yeah you can be arrogant and still not think the song's about you sure um yeah so it's not just limited to captain marvel or dr strange there's also if if Thor suddenly shows up or wields lightning no you are right about all these things this is the time to do it if you look at the timeline Mysterio probably thought like this is our best shot we're gonna take it cause otherwise his option is never try and just be relegated to nothing this like in terms of things forever like there's always gonna be his um his illusion tech is really revolutionary and I feel like he doesn't have to do this to really impress people that's his motivation and now remember you can take the lead on this sure um yeah yeah all I'm saying is like okay so you have like this revolutionary technology limitless applications so it's like you would think you would want to go down that route of um you know uh using your invention to get rich and famous instead of just going down the route of being a superhero what does he want though a recognition it's a lot more specific than that um what what would you say that he wants he wants Tony Stark he wants to be Tony Stark he wants to be Iron Man he feels robbed that Iron Man did what he did to his life so he wants to take his position he wants to be the best superhero on planet earth right but isn't that just in service of him getting recognition or disease well this is peak recognition you are the savior of earth your number one recognition that's pretty cool you know this is way above that whatever he could have achieved and plus we already know whatever that limitless application was what was that because he is an unreliable narrator and there is unlikely that Tony told him he was unstable for something that was reasonable that he wanted to do with this technology and don't forget the first thing he does in front of Peter is recreate what Tony did in 2012 he's like I'm gonna potentially die to save the world I have no choice I gotta do it he's generating this cult of personality because this is the thing if we had a real life Iron Man who did all the things he did he wouldn't even come close to Elon Musk we'd be like oh Elon Musk is cool I guess but that guy he's a legend he's a hero yeah but the reason I'm saying this right here is because the route of becoming a superhero does have a lot of risks in him people take risks in life I don't know what else I can say people take risks this is not a risk that he wouldn't have to take people take risks okay so there are a lot of people who are very rich and very successful who did incredibly risky things because they wanted more money and more success it is not human beings do this human beings can just do these things where they want that is incredibly risky when they already have a lot that guy who did the Ponzi scheme who ran the Nasdaq what was his name he was like a billionaire but he ran a Ponzi scheme because he wanted more money this just happens in real life that people do things that are incredibly risky just because they want more money or they want more fame I don't really care too much about the risks I just want to know do you consider it in character and from what we gather from him in the movie it is yeah it's risk yes if the risks weren't there then I would yeah I would consider it in character no if the risks are there would you consider in character um no not necessarily especially not with his crew not with his crew what do you mean so you have not just Mysterio thinking that they can do this indefinitely apparently but also no no no we cancelled that out we already did that you don't think that Mysterio's crew so do you think that Mysterio thinks that he can do this indefinitely or we talked about we did a whole scenario of how he could wind this back down once he's done his super extravagant display yeah we did a lengthy conversation about this so we're past that so he doesn't need to do it indefinitely because if ever things start to change he can change his plan and account for I suppose he could in the way that you guys described I think that's pretty reasonable the way that we described it he can find ways to make work he's already won a lot of people's trust the benefit of the doubt but he has tricked people into I mean I think he did a pretty damn good job and it's really cool how he did it like um obviously getting that one distant monster so he knocks it out before anyone else can then he gets access to all the information he's going to need about all the superheroes that he could get from faux fury then he can keep an eye on it it's like these people aren't on our plane they're not going to this is like well now he just needs to talk to the team and be like so when will be the best time and then you find out like we're getting further and further away from when Peter's dad father figure died and we're keeping track of the will and the elements of that he's got the glasses he's on a holiday it's like now is our chance this is the best chance we have we have to do the plan now and I mean we see that because when they're in Venice one of our one of Beck's guys is visible in the background following Peter Parker I know who is they keep an eye on him Mysterio is honestly I think he's good I think he's good I just like that his motivation is so interesting compared to most in general yeah it is and you could do a lot with it which is why I do hope that he comes back later on um maybe this was all a trick you know with the death um not entirely go ahead Oscar okay I was just saying not entirely convinced um by the counters being presented here but I am happy to move on because I think we're just at a point where it's just um just at a stalemate right here okay um so back to the soldier I think then right so uh what was oh yeah sure go for it yeah I was just gonna mention like another part of his plan that um that doesn't hold up very well so okay um okay yeah okay so he's he so Mysterio uses bullets to try to simulate the structural damage um we see this in like the illusion testing where he tries to use bullets to simulate the damage of uh the structures not a very good idea because if anybody like any cleanup crews will will catch on and this would be like hmm uh the damage was caught was suspiciously caused by like these bullets and like the casings would be all over the crime scene as well so it's like that's not a very uh good way to simulate the damage that would only raise suspicion on whether or not the the elementals are real or not um so um that that is it's an interesting observation because uh I remember I wrote down a list of what we can see that the drones are capable of doing let me just find it because I need need that so that I don't get anything wrong in terms of okay so because we have we have a lot of scenes where we we we see how the drones work explicitly like um so they yeah so they can fire bullets uh they can project electricity shoot shockwaves uh they can shoot lasers that melt things plane throws rockets cloak and project illusions um so I think everything there works pretty well the bullets is the iffy one um but it sound like more I had some well I was I was gonna say I think I think I simply agree with you yeah it's um those shells are gonna cause potential trouble I picture that the cleanup for um the destruction you'll cause very deliberately of course uh will be pretty significant and I think that like it's gonna be really suspicious yeah but the problem is why would anybody assume how how would people be able to jump to the conclusion of drones well I'm not saying that I'm just saying like there was obviously like some some uh something like excuse me something like manufactured going on um about the destruction of the structures I think it will um obviously there's a good like I don't know if they definitely used bullets in the um the final fight um they were obviously showing what they can do with the bullets in the in the scene with those pillars or whatever they are but uh um if they mainly use the shockwave blast they'll be alright yeah I'm okay with them using uh using that but like um if they're like using the bullets to rehearse like the whole um the whole event that they're gonna do it's like yeah that's not a smart way to I agree they should not they should be worried about the shell casings yes you don't create that level of suspicion they could easily just rely on the flamethrowers in the concussion blasts yeah although there is a problem as to how they're able to carry so much water around the venison in areas that don't have a nearby water supply um what are you referring to well can I take a picture of it real quick a picture of what do you want um here let me pull it up um because I think where it it like where it happens is kind of important um you'll see when when the photo gets uh you're talking about the venus monster yeah okay so um okay yeah all right I got it I got it keep in mind like the what we're seeing they are taller than than buildings right here um oh and if you want the timestamp it's 24 52 um why do we assume that that's water um well the area does like it is pretty wet in cannon yeah um sure it's wet on the floor but what about all that stuff yeah that could just be fake well I don't know how like the I'm concerned with like how it would have gotten to like gotten that much water around the floor to begin with I mean um interesting shot by a water source but like if you look once he defeats the monster if you look at the amount of water in the area that's probably how much was always there hmm yeah I'm still troubled on like how they would have gotten the water over there when this is like looks it's an illusion this isn't very close that uh what's yeah that's a big element what if it's not actually wet what if the what what if the floor is made to um me check actually so then I don't I also don't think it's gonna be too hard in the area to make it look like it's wet well well I don't know that it's gonna be hard to get that much water there doesn't seem to be much I'm pretty sure they're really close to a uh a canal um that it was close enough so water there so this is this is a question I have then so is the idea here that the wetness of the of the vicinity is like that's like not actual water that's just fake right so the broad thing would be that there is a blend in every instance of real damage and real things and fake and that they are being blended together in ways that make the most sense for you to be able to make it believable so like for instance when the fire monster is shooting flames it's like well the fire monster is obviously fake but the flames are real and they're being fired from the the uh the illusions and whatever way that it gets blended is just you know science fiction you know hologram trickery including like instantly melting stuff oh what are you talking do you mean the the one with the fire monster where the stuff falls on his back the floor and the statue so with the stuff like the thing falling on its back big old thing that you can do is the illusions can cover stuff up and make it invisible and then project like a fake version of it right so if he falls back on the uh scaffolding you can have the illusions show the scaffolding fall on his back uh but the actual one is still there and while it's invisible you just use some drones melt it down so that when everything's done or the chaos is over looks like it's been melted or it doesn't you know destroyed in some way hmm I don't see why that would be implausible considering how uh use how good these illusions are and what they could do and what the drones can be doing in the background uh so yeah so uh and when's the soldier which which where are we up to do we want oh one more thing I wanted to bring up about the water um just okay not too much but um uh so do you think like some of the water uh within the area is is fake and some of it is real or it's all real or it's all fake I don't think that it even really matters a whole lot which one I think because any of those configurations could make sense given what we understand about the drones so um what I would say is so what let's go with the idea that it was all fake so if people like people uh step in that area or they like and it's like not wet at all their shoes don't get wet uh I think we can not go it's all fake I don't think it's all fake yeah I think all fake would be like bigger stretch that's there's some water there but maybe the sheer quantity or you know where it came from that's kind of trickery hmm and if that's the case I don't think people would notice right so like people wouldn't be able to think about situation people would be able to think oh maybe this is fake water that's here and some of it's real and some of it's not I don't know that anybody would be looking out for that I guess Mysterio could of course like um I guess add like a rule in a story um it's funny like we're breaking out stories and we're breaking down like his story too um it's like so um maybe a rule could be made is like the water works differently I don't know that's the best assumption that could be made about it I think I think it's easy to find a way to make it work uh and trick people sure I I think I think that part's fair yeah um we're going back yeah uh it's a soldier um so we we just talked about the solar part so I guess we just want to keep going in chronological order uh do you mind I just fucking moron winter soldier is to just randomly turn up to the shields like lord's house in the middle of the night when his maid is there fucking what are you doing you idiot he's a gun on the table and you know by the way the construction of this scene right if I'm being completely honest I think the reason this exists is to make us as an audience go fuck no pierce look out it's the winter soldier terrifying he's gonna kill the leader of the world and then he's like want some milk you're like oh oh no she's evil oh god like oh he's so evil and I was gonna say I think what they want you to think is that winter soldier will kill you but then pierce is like no I'll do it and fucking kills her himself and like so this guy is a villain yeah um and then like immediately after that they go to they they manage to get to um Sam's house uh and then they're like oh everybody when I was trying to kill us to which my question would be oh yeah you've been Bruce Banner is he trying to kill you or about Tony is he trying to kill you you're gonna give him a call yet now would be the time I will trust this guy I met once that I met twice yeah like that's it isn't it just the once oh no sorry you're right it is twice then he made some of the VA yeah um and so then oh yeah sorry so just a little bit beforehand it's like you know with Nat and America getting around like uh getting around the city like afterwards so do you think like it's uh it's an issue that when Hydra was doing like the was putting their lights on the in the area that they blew up that they do you think it's convenient that they weren't found oh yeah but we already talked about that right so oh okay maybe at least it's really dumb they didn't track them but now we have to operate as though they didn't it's yeah apparently they didn't track them it's like okay yeah when they're talking to there's a neat scene with Black Widow on that one because Black Widow is pretty well on this movie it might be worth saying I really like everything to do with Black Widow in Winter Soldier yes she is uh she is in a good place that should probably give you an indication of where our happiness is not lying I didn't mention any other characters uh but yeah so they talked to Sam and they figure out about sit well and then there's the part where they're like what we're gonna go get Sam's wings that feels super risky to me feel like that should be really difficult to get those wings from walking K right so yeah I think so but um the thing that I thought about when watching this is like okay maybe they had the impersonation technology so they could pretend to be like uh people that would be allowed to get it but it's like okay you should wear that all the time if you have it yeah exactly that's what I was thinking and also I don't think I don't we could assume that they even had it I don't think these three have that currently SK was was uh trying to like he was still in the middle making his point that he was thinking about that but ultimately doesn't work yeah yeah because like if that was the case that would create issues elsewhere I'm saying like either way it would create big problems yeah I'm saying I don't think it's reasonable to assume they have that technology on them they're in like they're on the run they haven't prepared they have it once they get to fury safe house of course but uh yeah they have to have me to get the wings which is a little bit of a it's so funny in the film they're like we need to get past like three gated doors loads of guards it's like no problem it's like no no no no problem like this is a problem they've got like barely any resources and they can't trust anyone yeah but they can just go get that it's like okay yeah what if someone like snapped the photo with um the power of editing I don't even know that they can get in I don't know what their plan would be mm-hmm um and uh so then they they go to get sit well um which is something that wouldn't afford off of Zola and tell them anything so um I feel like it's time to bring in uh since they're at falcon's place falcon is intrinsically important to this plotline for many reasons many points and he met him the day the plotline kicked off that's incredibly coincidental I think that is Zola here without him they couldn't have won several times over he does a lot of things for him so there's that um they go to get sit well and so sit well told his bodyguards to leave which is super helpful because if they had stayed they wouldn't have been able to trick him into uh going up to the roof and so they do and they have the whole scene where they like oh Zola's algorithm you know evaluates people's past to determine their future targets their biometrics basically and kills them that's a little stupid um but you know what again it's done though like science fiction stuff um and so then that's all we get to we get to the highway fight scene um so Sam is in the so Sam is in the car first and foremost the wings are in the trunk um everything happens afterwards I guess the wings are gone where's it gonna get the wings did they bring them with them the strike guys in the same van that they eventually couched them in the wings without that the whole movie doesn't happen the wings are gone yeah yeah and just just I just want to make sure right four targets in a car we want to kill them all that is and we know where they are yep so we're Hydra and we're willing to blow the fuck out of this highway in public we don't care if people see this so he's that magnificent explosive disc launcher uh you know what I'll do you one better use a ballistic missile blow them up from space Predator missiles yeah like you know you know the thing that it uses to try to blow up uh black window you could just use that if you broken you broke the window and then tossed it in yep so so it's over that they're all dead all four of them it's over Hydra wins 20 million people dead several times over um Whitsa soldier picks the worst thing to do which is to kill sit well the defenseless one rather than like Sam or uh Steve or Nat by throwing them in front of the car or just taking the wheel out if he doesn't want to blow them all up for whatever reason we ignore if we ignore all of the other ways that he could kill them he chooses the one person he chooses the worst but like all of them want Hydra destroyed one of them is being held hostage so like if you're going to nail any one of them probably not that guy yeah element of surprise blown so he picks the worst one that's pretty catastrophic for a guy who is um the you know the the greatest assassin right who's ever lived um so we have all that and then uh yeah the fight takes place he pulls out the grenade launcher now wait so he takes two shots one through the car into Cap's head but Cap ducks and one into Falcon's head that's his hope he doesn't shoot where he cannot miss he shoots where he can miss if he had shot center of mass on the seat there's nothing they can do they're dead Will's greatest assassin but yeah he gets flying off and then they crash into the back of their car which knocks the gun out of Black Widow's hands rips the wheel out and then they crash um I'm gonna just totally disregard that Sam's he has no skin left on his arms when he's rolling across the road yeah whatever's bothering me yeah so that happened Cap gets up grabs the shield gets blasted by uh a grenade launcher from um Winter Soldier he goes flying into a truck his shield is gone elsewhere truck flips over as it keeps driving a little bit so he's out of the fight for a little bit you've got it pulled up there that shield is flying real far away from where he is keep that in mind um and so then they're doing their cool little slow walk on the highway trying to kill that awesome music kicks in because the soundtrack is awesome the soundtrack is great in this movie yeah it's really great from home too though um like Mysterio's theme being uh just changed the key signal not the key signature uh sorry yes changed the from major to minor and then it gives a completely different feel pretty cool like uh Vulture's being the inversion of the Avengers theme pretty cool it's um it's interesting how the music seems to carry the action sequences in this movie yeah well that and the editing I think it's the the editing yeah the editing the pacing yeah not not just a bunch of explosions gets down on the road whatever she probably should be dead from the from that but whatever um she runs down um she somehow manages to get an angle to shoot Bucky in the eyes uh that smashes glasses um but and then there's all that stuff and then she runs away and for whatever reason Winter Soldier says you guys kill Captain America I'll kill Black Widow I'm not sure why it isn't the other way around but um whatever you know he's he's not very smart um and so now we get now we get the the kind of kind of just highlight it's a bit of a nitpick I just think it's amusing these people who obviously the bus things happened cap for some reason takes longer than anyone else to get up I guess because he smashed through whatever they don't help him they just leave but yeah so he's in that van and the four bad guys jump down one of them with the minigun unload into the bus all of the bullets miss him now I don't know I don't know what to tell you about that that is unreal but anyway he runs out jumps out his shield is there which it shouldn't be it's either incredibly convenient or it shouldn't be there at all that landed that close to him it saves his life and again the cap dies 20 million people die so that is it's absurdly convenient for him um and so he he like cowers and tries to block him off um and he reflects bullets into one of the dudes which is that um and so the big part though is he charges the guy with the minigun and the guy with the minigun doesn't think you know what maybe I'll go for the legs like he just shoots at the shield as he keeps running at him this is the most famous floor of the film that most people know about yeah shoot him with the legs why you should have given the shield you can't possibly miss if you're hitting if you're aiming for the legs with the minigun it feels so frustrated to watch as well because it's just like it looks so easy that he could just tilt it a little bit down and then he's dead that's all you gotta do and then of course you know nat fights um winter soldier narrowly gets away and she gets hit and that's fine but man if cap was 5 seconds like a 2 seconds later she's dead if he was 2 seconds later she's dead very lucky that he gets there in time to save her um now I don't know if you want to talk about the fight scene more if you want to um I will so because we're at 4 hours 15 minutes right now so I'm not saying that well we're reaching our cap I for all I know we're halfway through um but I'm not going to go through every single thing I think that um uh the major one for me is the uh well I don't know if you want to you seem you seem into it Frank you go right ahead so do you guys remember a little movie called The Last Jedi uh yeah no what's that one about yeah so so there was this fight scene that I already thought was really cool where um where where they're in a big red room and they're fighting each other uh the little problem with that was that there was a knife uh or a lightsaber that um they could have used to kill rave but when they when it's when it's when they need it it just disappears it's gone it's just proof magic it's gone um so Winston soldier has three guns uh generally on him and a knife so he has an assault rifle he had the two knives yes so he has uh the the rifle with the grenade launcher uh and he has a machine pistol and just a you know semi automatic pistol so when he fights cap he starts shooting at him uh with the rifle he drops the rifle grabs his machine pistol um starts shooting at him and then uh cap leaps over the the car kicks that machine pistol away so two guns down he grabs his pistol and they they start shooting at each other uh no he starts shooting him so one thing I want to clarify right uh the entire scene we we assume he he uh he came here fully loaded right so mm-hmm he pulls out the scorpion go shoot shoot shoot shoot and then he has to reload there are uh fires like jam oh it was a jam oh either way either way by american yeah whether or not he's out of ammo or he's jammed just like really convenient um so yeah he shoots the pistol and then the pistol is just kind of not present now you have it pulled up what exactly does it look like for people there so you can see him with the pistol he gets punched and then yes the pistol is gone it looks so all we can assume is it's back in its holster or he's lost it but then there is no no evidence of the pistol on him throughout the scene yeah it's like uh must be gone then mm-hmm it must be gone yeah and here's the thing here's how we know it must be gone because there is when when he catches the shield that uh the cap throws at him that is your peak opportunity to get out that gun that you definitely have and shoot him as he runs and close the distance cap's dead yeah he's dead yeah like uh they have well go ahead uh so i'm sorry i just want to say the only uh fixed for the pistol that i can think of is they explicitly show like with a great camera angle cap clearly smacking the pistol out of bucky's hand and the pistol goes flying off and then he collects it later well that's the idea yeah like i i i am against guns just being knocked out people's hands and i agree with you and i think if if we were simply shown enough evidence that he might have picked it up at some point would be okay i don't know how well so the way to do it right i'll i'll tell you it would have been really convenient but they didn't even do it it's just a hole you see this part where he's thrown by cap if we could see evidence of a pistol on the floor anywhere around here it would turn into a dramatic convenience but instead it's just a hole he just somehow has a gun materializes one and you see this yeah can i quickly just point out a movie with a really great fight scene that accounts for like the one gun that is in the fight mission impossible fallout the bathroom fight oh yeah man balls out of the asian man's holster wow to the ground next like in the bathroom stall next to them so it's not in there with them they simply don't see it because they're focused on getting into the bathroom stall because they hear guys coming and the gun doesn't really ever come into play until the asian guy ends up near that stall where the gun fell down and he reaches for it and almost kills Ethan yeah um i actually think you know the part with a knife fight it's pretty pretty awesome it's still awesome uh it's just looks really cool yeah shame the stakes of this fight are fucked with though surrounding it he doesn't have it you see full body shots where there is no pistol on him at all it's he doesn't have it it's gone um but yeah when he needs it to do like oh who the hell's bucky gun suddenly appears um and that leads i don't know i don't know yeah that leads directly into the police forces they're willing to gun fury down in the road there's an active war zone type thing going on here but they all decide now we will arrest these guys we won't shoot them on sight that's how the action scene ends it's a big old slab but also we can't gloss over the fact that winter soldier was a split second away from putting a bullet in cat's and america's head and sam just shows up just in time to save them and he's about to do it again but just in time black widow's got the grenade launcher scares him off just in time at least he has the shield at that point yes that's true but still god damn he was not ready for that even before that it's i find it weird that bucky was just like after he was unmasked because like you know you want to get that mask up back on right away you don't want people knowing who you are um so he's just he's just like standing in front of captain america just staring at him as cap is staring back it's like shoot him yeah no he doesn't um and then that leads us right into the arrest scene where all four heroes are putting the same truck and it is the last truck in the convoy i just want to make sure we reiterate they could have shot them on site it was an active war zone these people are attacking like their men quote-unquote they're all fugitives they've done but they just don't and it's weird because rumlow it's almost like they've all agreed to arrest them they all come in like oh stop freeze freeze freeze wait don't kill him here and it's like wait if the orders were killed then why weren't you shooting at him yeah i don't know oh not here not here but we'll do it to nick fury in the middle of the city in front of everybody and this whole yeah and we'll do it to cap and in front of like and cap is currently a wanted man like he's they got a manhunt active for him and he's been fighting like they had all the excuses they needed yeah um but no they put him in the last truck the convoy and they don't kill a mother in the truck and wouldn't luck have it maria hill is on this truck and saves their lives with the light saber to dig the hole out at the bottom which would have been impossible if they were in different trucks or alternatively if they were all in one truck but it was in the middle instead of the back imagine rumlow was just like nah i'll go with them with my guys you can go in a different one random person i don't know yeah um and and again if they stopped 20 million people dead so yeah just just to remind me of another one of those things and yeah like it would have been fantastic it would have been grim as fuck but can you imagine that he gets into the thing they're all trapped and he just slices all of their throats one by one as they can't move and he's just like yeah this is the way to get it done because they apparently plan to dig their graves at this like this random site they had done that and they approach the back truck with their guns drawn as if something has already gone wrong it's like why did you put them in the back like the convoy i love the editing though it's like there's been a lightsaber so they're gone there's no way it's a lightsaber so you're done just teleport a device yeah there's a bit of a concern i have with that as well it's like so they say three holes start digging but there's one hole so like i don't know no what do you mean he sank three holes to bury them in like to kill them in the one hole in the back i thought you're gonna highlight it is an incredibly fucking bizarre place to dig graves because i was gonna say wait so if that's what that line meant then that's a really stupid place look at it it's like why would you dig graves here can you dig graves here well you can have some strong shovels maybe they have a lightsaber i don't know question did they escape once the trucks had stopped or while they were moving if it's while they were moving that's gonna kill them probably and if not that it'll separate the fuck out of them and the driver should probably notice something shitty but if it's while they were stopped they had seconds to get through that hole before they would have been found i don't even know that they could get all four of them through that hole before they check the back well three of them no four of them yeah it's four yeah so um that doesn't work i know you think it works but it doesn't work so many times the editing saves these characters oh yes um do we want to switch over there you go i'm from home what you got uh so okay so there's this funny line from Mysterio he says more casualties more coverage i gotta cut to the static London is a beautiful city they can recover whatever and then he says when its new savior descends all those casualties will be forgotten okay in a post-Sacovia towards the world those casualties will not be forgotten um i so if so your concern is like when you say casualties i don't think he's so casualty means like injured person you can say collateral right um oh he's told like uh this is gonna cause a lot of casualties more casualties more coverage that's a big threat just to make sure i'm not sure if we're on different so uh the way i understand the line is that he's saying a lot of people are gonna die for our illusion and then his people are like that's kind of fucked up isn't it we don't have to kill people then he's like don't worry they'll be forgotten what he's referring to is that this horrible monster demon is going to kill people when it's actually him but nobody's gonna know that it's just gonna look like he's not doing it he's saying it to his team and of course he's the hero right so everybody's gonna be like what a hero he saved the world yeah like we're not dealing with um a wonder situation in Lagos we're dealing with he's an enemy comes up it's hurting people he stops it there is no he wouldn't have caused any collateral because he's just firing lasers directly at it like this i doubt because it's his illusion i doubt he's gonna have a moment where he like pushes it into a bunch of a school bus full of children you know what i mean yeah unlikely um he's like reassuring his team is what i'm saying i'm not sure about the whole like all those casualties will be forgotten because um well it's interesting that you say that because there are casualties that have been forgotten by people who watch some of these movies it is kind of ironic but like the sycobia chord still exists in this universe well but i'm confused how does this what do you what do you think like my brain is struggling with this one i'm like so you're saying that the chords would be like hey misterio the horrible monster killed people you have to answer for that it's like well they wouldn't know it was his well yeah but like they would still care about the fact that like all those people died and he seems to i mean people will care but the idea is they're not going to blame him and they'll be like well you saved the world like good job you saved the world so yeah people did die but you saved the world i've always seen it as a really cool character moment so they're like this is sad and bad well he's like no one's gonna remember him once we get x him out forward that's not the point they're saying like it's immoral and he's like nana we won't remember it at the same point yeah but wouldn't it be more impressive like if he wants to impress people so much wouldn't it be more impressive if he was able to take out this monster with minimal casualties more casualties in the case how big of a threat it is yeah i think obviously yeah the idea being like this was this was a world-ending threat that he single-handedly destroyed and the more death count there is probably defines the bigger impact if this thing attacked all of london it was like no one died be like wow okay so really that wasn't so bad but again like that that then just results in the question of like where are the other avengers which again we'll have to see like the other movies that are coming out yes i suppose to account for this but i will go as far as saying like i think far from home does better than the other two shows being like i think so i mean one division i mean at least they are garbage like complete your well i meant in this regard they do give a shot in those other two shows i think one division tries right it says like they can't get a hold of don't they suggest i fucking don't want to remember that i don't even remember they do i don't think they do in that case yeah okay ignore that they're all garbage this this film at least has spider-man asking about them and that they're unavailable or otherwise like at least they tried and yeah i want a good justification of doctor strange i hope they take care of that i wouldn't rely on it though um another thing so with uh um with mysterio uh figuring out that peter and mj figured out that his whole thing was fake so at that point he would have um he would have figured out okay i need to tap their phones and see who he told um and i'm pretty sure like the scene with ned finding out about mysterio um when he gets told about that uh i'm pretty sure mysterio would have tapped their phones to make sure like uh you know who is peter telling um so it's like okay if you could tap their phones and i assume he would tap their phones at this point then why didn't you just kill all of them right there you already know who he told you want to make sure you can't leave any loose ends so he's going to put peter in a really tough position where he's like absolutely going to give him the truth as soon as he gets because i i think you're right i think he's probably got a lot of evidence of who he has told um but he doesn't know if that's all of them yet and of course they're surrounded by the other school people so he's probably going to try and figure out a way to kill all of the suspects once he can yeah so i guess he just wanted to just to make sure uh later on because uh you know there might be people that he's missing out he seems pretty elated in his fake fury once he finds out uh what peter like who peter's actually told he's like haha you're so fucking stupid yeah um another thing so um when uh when mysterio is like pretending to be nick fury um and he says who else did you tell he notices something is off like why would you reveal that it's an illusion that's a pretty bad idea well so it's um i would say that it's a it's a double bluff right and i thought it was pretty clever because it only just occurred to me right when um he asked him again who did you tell i was like oh fuck this could be fake too uh i don't know and um that's part of what he destroys peter with he makes him question his perception of deciding things between real and reality and so he's stressed the fuck out at the end of that scene um and then of course fury is just like just tell me and he's like yeah yeah yeah okay okay uh so i told this like he's the point is to just completely overload him and that's that's kind of what the whole part of the illusion scene is it's just it's it's an overload of like information input obviously re-referencing his father figure's death yeah sure but like you'd think that after that entire sequence that would only give him more reason to believe that anything that he sees isn't is not real no because the big thing why does he fall so the whole thing with the illusion scene is okay so you make him not trust reality and it's like oh but Mysterio has just been and oh nick fury's here who to tell who's you tell and just yells at him it's like well i can understand especially given the arc that he is going on at the moment if you keep an eye on the scene it's obviously attempt one is point blank he tries and then he sees Peter's like something's wrong and so plan B is okay he's figuring out that there's an illusion what we'll do is reveal that everything is fake except himself ignore me a fury and so he's like i'll kill fury quote-unquote and he shoots him and it's believable for Peter that he's been shot with something that he can survive because of his body armor and he's gonna turn up later and back stab back because back didn't account for it he's just like oh fuck i'm out i'm out of the fucking nightmare illusion sequence and then he's like Peter we need to know we gotta save him who did you tell his men are on the way i think he says we gotta look after him he says the men are tracking down anybody who might know what he's up to so who'd you tell yeah i think that back notices it's not gonna work this way so it's like a plan B of trying to convince him with a double bluff yeah and i think it's really effective double bluff because if fury gets shot at that moment Peter's not gonna be able to put together oh this probably isn't fury either like so much is happening that he can't latch on to anything at the moment but it's enough it's enough to like whittle down his defense i think um i don't know because even then like with uh with the whole okay Mysterio got shot and uh Nick Fury's asking who you told like even that could be fake of course that could be fake but Peter's like confused um i just i mean you would think that sorry go on so um i don't want to repeat it all but like so you just to take every single element of what's just happened and his mental state is almost destroyed and then he's got someone yelling at him to save his friends and he's like yeah yeah yeah i gotta say their names yeah but like his mental state i think would give him even more reason not to trust him because again he doesn't he can't tell what's real what's not right remember central arc of this film that is reinforced consistently is that Peter does not trust himself or does not have confidence in himself so i think it's really sound that somebody who is really lacking in a confidence and belief in himself and his abilities who believes he's already screwed up badly would immediately buckle if nick fury was who he believes to be nick fury is yelling at him remember it's we need to save your friends it's pretty convincing it's um he's back to reality the reality news that existed from a little bit earlier when you saw it briefly before it recovered and then fury's got the wound or at least the thing and to be like yeah that fucking shot me and it's like we did it though and he's limping as well it's just like it's really good like i could totally see spider-man folding on this being like oh thank fuck you save me i don't know i still don't buy it i guess we're not gonna agree i guess my question would be why not well it sounds like from what you said you just you think that he would have clued on right yeah because like again he knows like what the illusion tech can do he knows this is something mysterious probably i would argue that that is that you're right it's a complete stalemate because like this is a state of mind thing and like we think that all the resources the references point to it but you think that there's a chance he probably should have seen it and there is more of a chance of it so this i don't think anyone can prove anything definitively here sure yeah that's fine yeah this is another thing where it's just chats just gonna have to decide who they believe more mm-hmm cool mm-hmm okay do you want to do you got something else that you want to do with the train that i find weird so did he plan for the for the train to show up like at that exact time or did he just oh there's a train i'll just utilize it like he has drawings with cameras so i imagine that he yeah sees the thing coming i picture it's on a set runtime so he knows when the next ones are writing in and you just have to delay picture enough to get on the i think i'm gonna guess lamb early in has a really effective it's germans you know like really really uh good traffic management system and like infrastructure that train probably comes fairly frequently it was one of zola's algorithms that yeah yeah i'm i'm surprised i'm surprised that that's the Nazi train a joke that you came up with rags what a well i i have no idea what you could possibly be referred referencing i think i had a solid joke racism in any other direction i can think so there are six million different examples of better jokes i could have told but i think i settled on a good one um what was i gonna say oh yeah so okay with that let's say um let's say he told uh he told him who he who he told uh after the train has already passed so what was he gonna do was he gonna kill him with the drones oh so you're asking if the train wasn't an option what would you have done yeah that's what i'm saying i'm assuming he's planned so that the train will be the option but i i would yeah i picture he can kill him with the drones yeah okay so what i'm saying here is like so if he uses the train to like if he uh gets the information out of him at a time where the train isn't there for him to kill him and that's pretty lucky because with the train he assumed i would kill him but it didn't kill him which i'm fine with yeah i would assume that if i if i didn't know the full extent of his abilities i would assume the bullet train would have killed him so that's fine but like if it was not in an instance where he was he could use the train and if he had just used the drones then that's game over well he has full control over the illusions so he got to pick the time when the illusion ends yeah two two things to clarify is one if the train wasn't coming for another two minutes he can just toy with peter and the illusions until it gets here um secondly if he kills him with his drones it looks like peter spiderman spider monkey whatever he's been shot to death while instead he's in an accident where he got hit by a train i think the train is easy to cover up then we don't have to do anything he's gone well i mean yeah i guess like with the train um yeah you can just because here's the thing what i'm what i'm thinking about right now is like okay if he shoots him with the drones i guess he'd have to he'd have to dump the body somewhere which i i know the edith drones they probably can't just pick people up like that he'd have to pick him up himself and he'd probably have to walk to um i don't know wherever he's gonna dump him um so yeah i would imagine that would take a longer than just waiting for the train so yeah that's fair shall we um um come back or do you want to keep going yeah let's let's fly back to winner soldier okay okay uh so we got up to the part where it is the well they've gone back and met fury well friend take that one well yeah we get a little bit of a flashback set while we're getting told that he's about to get his mind wiped old bucky and this right here this little shot has reminded me of something that i definitely want to make sure we mention uh i i'm not saying this to southpaw all to sk okay night this is not directed at either of you i don't give a fuck if this happened in the comics okay just putting that out there so it's pretty convenient that in the first avenger bucky falls off a train into a chasm like a pure like to find that body to even know that he fell or where he fell pretty intense but they found him before he died they dragged him all the way to hydra dot com wherever they live they gave him they gave they gave him an enemy soldier the most impressive prosthetic arm i've ever seen and then they they go to the lengths of brainwashing him instead of and giving him a super soldier serum which by the way they were unable to replicate successfully he's the only one that they were successful with and he happens to be steve's best friend which is something that is really useful to this film in terms of saving steve again and again however had this been anyone else let's say someone they could control fully because they're a hydra agent it would have been over there is a lot in that that's incredibly convenient to this plotline what do you think yeah i don't disagree yeah someone's gonna say but bucky was with the soldier in the comics and i just i just wanted to bucky was winter soldier in the comics well then find a more logical way to have bucky become winter soldier in the movie you yeah you want to know something funny in the comics of what is it amazing spider-man issue 13 you want to know how the conflict with mysterio gets resolved how he flat out just tells him his whole plan he tells him that it's all illusions he tells him that it's all fake because oh he thinks he can kill spider-man anyway even though you've just told him very useful vulnerabilities to take you down i don't yeah so it's like if it's in the comics like that doesn't mean it's a good thing yeah we're i think that we should have clarified this or disclosed this at the very beginning of of the discussion as kid i have a strict buck the comics policy oh beautiful especially when especially when a lot of them are really stupid like the a lot of the older comics they have a lot of really crappy writing it's not like i've presented panels of real spider-man comics in the text chats here or bringie or rags and mawler to read out together that's never happened on that ever i think they're great so bringie carry right along so we get the part where we find out that fury's alive and we kind of covered that so we get the big plan which is that they are going to use these little cards to put them into the hella carrier and fury is under the belief that these cards can be used to bring the hella carriers down safely he says that they can salvage them um that's really important keep that in mind so uh oh well i guess it would be relevant now to which uh captain america says no we're gonna destroy the hella carriers we're destroying shield shield is corrupt we need to take them down um and we're gonna get them to blow themselves up everybody unanimously agrees on this nobody has a conversation about whether or not there's a lot of collateral damage that they should be worried about or even whether or not cap is even right on principle about the idea of getting rid of the hella carriers rather than salvaging them and it makes you wonder if cap is aware of nukes yes because he says that nobody should be allowed to have hella carriers and as it turns out hella carriers saved the day and age of ultron and avengers and avengers that's true um but ultimately yeah his decision is nobody gets to have these we destroy these instead of bringing them down um now i suppose we'll get back to the consequences of that decision but i think it's important to note that there was no discussion about the necessity of bringing them down like that we must that we only have a short window of time to take them down um and if they do have a short window of time then fury's an idiot who doesn't even know what his own tech does to uh to bring it down um or it's it's the other problem where he just committed to that choice um and the consequences of that choice well i suppose we'll get back to those later um however before they go to do their mission which is pending there's not a lot of time before insight launches cap thinks it's a good idea to snake into the museum and steal his suit um man talk about priorities he would rather steal his old suit when we watched and e-fat fans you'll know this batwoman i believe the reaction to episode three season one uh we took major issue with batwoman deciding which by the way really cool idea you're trapped in a building with loads of civilians that need your help but you're not in your suit so what do you do she goes home redesigns the whole suit and then comes back and helps them uh nowhere near as bad in this but holy fuck this is not what cap would do yeah this is really not what cap would do um you start adding up these makes you think um so anyway um they get they managed to break into shoe and headquarters whatever they they somehow did that uh without anybody noticing them or stopping them um and then he starts up oh wait so he needs to walk it back yeah i don't know exactly where you're going with it but if we were to with the information we have that they have what's the plan now i can think of a pretty good one i'm gonna go with this okay so everybody gets their super spy coverage face things we take the positions of all of the members of the board because apparently they're able to do that which by the way i think is a problem but i'm gonna let it go because uh you know they're just that good and they've got all the resources um you know and so you you do that you go up to the room with pierce any one of you can just either knock him out or whatever you want you then pose as pierce because they can do that with this technology and you just order a delay on insight you're like nah gotta be delaying it in fact we're gonna be sending down the the board members for an inspection and then they go down to the the areas specifically the areas with the blades and then they're just like yeah we're just gonna have a look oh yeah we're your bosses you can't do anything about this and so yeah um nobody dies the neutralized all the tech and if fucking cap wants to destroy them i'm sure we can find a way to do it without killing many civilians but nobody cares to try this plan out because there's not enough action in it no that's right they need to do a one where the the broadcast could be shut down immediately but they just don't um but yeah um uh in terms of like uh now we we already talked about because when i look at my notes all i've got is cap on the helicarrier is pink plot armor but then i also write falcon dodging all of the helicarrier ammo stuff is complete plot armor so like we already covered that um so i guess it would be going back to the the pierce part where they've gone upstairs strike team goes in they're like who we bad guys we're not gonna arrest pierce we're gonna arrest you um and so yeah and then they have then there's all that stuff happening outside and he's like oh you know if you could if you could kill these bad guys would you do it with a flick of a switch he says no and pierce grabs his pistol to shoot him but then black widow jumps in now she punches him and for the next 10 15 seconds while the action scene is happening he is standing there with his phone he could press the button because she is wearing the little tag to burn a hole in all of their sternums it's over it's done um and it's just want to highlight the hilarity of this image yeah yeah you got you got that it's uh man oh really bad um and i mean we didn't talk about this with the plot armor but having the control center of the helicarriers unguarded at the bottom protected by glass what the hell is that about some of the stupidest ship design i think we've ever come across that's really bad and there's no no people defending it either what no well but this is interesting i got lost when i was thinking about this by watching this film again so winter soldier knows to go down there to protect it how does he know that without hydra also knowing meaning they should have people defending it yeah problem big problem yeah well uh because that's when i was the whole final battle scene to happen yeah i mean out of curiosity how do you guys feel about winter soldier right now just getting a barometer um yeah i think i might lower it to possibly a two um i don't because i haven't noticed like a lot of the stuff that's being pointed out right now it's like goodness gracious yeah i think that was so where was spotting man for you guys but you know where was that um for now you said i want to two yeah so what i want to do is take all of what was said into account reassess it and see do all of these hold and when i revisit it whenever i revisit it um but for now i'm sticking with like yeah a two yeah okay i want to rewatch i want to rewatch the movies after the debate to yeah come to a full termination um i suppose because we kind of covered the plot i was just going to say why is it that natasha romanoff's alpha access past both exists and hasn't been removed uh so basically she said she was he says you have to have two alpha passes and she's like yeah i got few reasons like why is yours on the record why wouldn't they've removed it also why do you have alpha level access you're a soldier your spy like why would you have alpha alpha level is presumably from the top yeah well it gives you the power to dump all secrets online there's no fucking way she has that power so oh by the way clarified terms of the 20 million debt we've been saying the 20 million debt by the way for anybody who that's pierce he says they're gonna give 20 million on screen we see like 700 he says 20 million anyway it's still a lot of people law we're gonna say about the alpha level thing oh so i guess it seems that they need fury and pierce to uh both like do some sort of confirmation before uh getting access to like the the files but it's like how did fury sneak in his like they cleared all his access they got rid of his clearance it's like how did how was that possible i don't know oh wait sorry if i made a mistake is it is it the two alphas are fury and pierce because in that case that's even worse how come it's only an eye scan well yeah it should just check and see if they have a face i i'm more so just like jesus christ what if you're under duress like there's no proof you just you wanted eye scan and that's you like authorize we need to alphas get your eyes and like i don't know that surely there's passwords there's further like yeah friends guys so i've always had this this issue so he says you need to look with both eyes open so and like that's how they're able to do this is they apparently didn't erase uh right right nick fury's biometric for his his left eye which is it i was gonna so that's the thing that was where we're gonna go next i sorry just to clarify so it's not black widows it's it's pierces but the requirement to use it is literally just his eye it didn't actually like you don't need anything else i just i'm sorry i just didn't think they would have shitty security uh but secondly the scan was literally for his patch so now you have the the right dimensions for this patch i think um i think we'll all agree alpha level access that's going to be limited to a very select few like and i'm glad that it's only fury and pierce these are very high ranking members now if you think of the pool of alpha level access as possibly like 20 registered one of them is going to be wonky eye you know like what the fuck is this and it's like this is someone who has access to this apparently and it's like not get off the system who is that it's like registered to it has to be it can't just be wonky i it has to be registered to something but yeah that would have to be registered to fury like or unless he calls it like you know rumsfeld and he just like who the fuck is rumsfeld i think the computer said hey nicholas j fury i think the computer says nicholas j fury that's fucking dumb yeah so it's like in another thing that comes to mind it's like a dead person has alpha level access i think that's funny yeah i i've never understood this part and it's crazy because obviously it enables the rest of the plotlines to come nice one went to soldier i guess you did it i think oh they could have hydra could have shot down fury's helicopter as it was landing and then that would be the end of the movie too because it would obviously be identified as non-friendly yeah yeah the thing is like so this is the thing about having stakes this high right it becomes really really important to make sure that you don't have issues like this present in your story because every time because you keep on mentioning 20 million people die if this doesn't happen right every time that there's an issue like this it's very consequential there's like yes sort of a you need like the higher the stakes in your story the like the higher the stakes the writing of that story should be just a little general solidity well fun just to make it clear everybody the higher the stakes are for you to make sure that that story is airtight that's the point i was trying to get but you know just for the sake of clarity there are more of these in winter soldier there are more i don't know the big list of these look i am all in favor of exploring all of them you see because again you know what i said about earlier about how i don't really care for hot takes oh my god my goodness gracious are you an illusion oh um yeah sure uh i'm just trying to keep track because um because i know where a lot of this leads um in terms of we talked about bumping into and then um oh do we want to do we want to talk about how the final fight scene is like absurd let's do it yeah oh fuck you not crushing the blade i mean i mean there's that that's not even it but there's that you're right because if he crushes that blade the movie's over i'm just saying i've noticed that from day one there's there's a plenty of these things that i trust me i've noticed these from day one yeah um it should yeah uh so he could have crushed it um they're having a little fight he has two guns uh when they're both getting knocked away one of them is just out for the rest of the movie the other one is there but only when convenient even though i think it's sitting on top of the railing well i have no idea how they're getting around to where they go i'll just um a quick guide to the life of this pistol uh in your own copies i can't give you the timeline but uh it's just the typing this is so loud so uh he obviously attacks with the two pistols they both get knocked out of his hands and we see one of them fall and settle on the railing it's just chilling out there it's right there for those at home just chilling out next shot that you see of the railing it's gone you can't see that pistol again it's just out um the next time we see it is when they both fall into the ground and winsel just picks it off the ground um but luckily for him it not only managed to teleport because it was settled it manages to get to the exact place that he ended up falling down after this fight and if it wasn't just you know sometimes you wish you're like if only it was that silly but um cap shield is knocked out of his hand and it happens to fall right in the place that winter soldier ends up falling and so you can pick it up now you might be thinking yourself guys you might be thinking well that's useful for winter soldier and you're like no no it's not useful no because it the shield the shield tricked winter soldier it made him think that it would be useful but instead he doesn't fuck i don't know how to just it's just so annoying he thought he's you know what it's cap's property he figured he should have it back so he threw it out of him so that he could then use it to block all of the bullets that he fired at him so for cause and effect here he throws the shield and it bounces up and then down to cap which is very rare people who throw that shield usually bounces back to him but this time it went straight to cap if only just he had shot at him instead of using the shield would have killed him in the back sad you win game over again but it gets worse gentlemen we have two shots he shoots later at least so he still got shots in that gun the shield is thrown at him he boops it away and then he goes in for the knife attack you have a gun he has no shield you got him and then possibly the funniest part i get if you guys can pull up your copies because i just want to do this for the people at home i'm doing it this way okay so people at home can you see winter soldier right there he's like yeah i got him he stabbed cap he's tossed him into that wall he's got most advantage right now it's going great you see that right there that's where the card is it's right there it's like two feet away from winter soldier next time we see him boom he's on the ground oh no he's fallen over he slips over well he was trying to get the thing and then by grabbing it which by the way crush it obviously went over that it's done so but it gives up his leverage and caps got him and it leads to cap neutralizing him he slipped on a banana peel unfortunately and he lost him the fight yeah well he could have so pulled it back with the clutch victory when cap's trying to climb up to put the thing in the little chip thing but he's shooting at him and he just are you talking about the time when winter soldier disappears for 40 seconds yes that's yeah the movie that saves the lives of all the people in the last few seconds wait no before that while he's climbing up to put the chip back in because he isn't gone for 40 seconds quite yet he's shooting at him he's not landing the shots but somehow from an angle where he shouldn't have been able to hit cap he hits him and that incapacitates cap nearly until the end of the countdown but just make sure we got the shot right so he's shooting at cap from very far below here once cap gets above that railing he's got no shot but somehow magically he still does but and then and it's funny it's funny how it just flips that the problems to stack on he doesn't have a shot here but for the next 40 seconds he doesn't make any attempt to get up there to stop cap for sure he just stays on the bottom until the helicopter starts shooting at each other and then he gets crushed with the soldiers literally teleported out of the film to prevent the hero from winning the day yeah fascinating pretty dumb now you know what that's a lot that was a lot of recovery and you know what you guys have talked and I know you have before focused much on the main star of the show Peter Parker do you guys have any thoughts on the boy Pete can we go over that yeah we'd like to go over that later first I wanted to say as an update of what I think of it right here so after going over all the instances of the plot armor I'm gonna be like yeah it is way worse and way worse significantly worse okay so what you got then if you don't want to talk about Peter Parker um alright so do you want to talk about shield now no you're talking now what do you got oh I was talking to them so oh yeah let's talk about shield that's okay alright so with shield they don't seem to run a background check on Quentin Beck I'm so glad you asked that you know what I'm so glad you asked that do you just know what I'm saying right here and you want to just uh move go for it though explain your full okay okay so the thing about the scrolls is like oh sorry about shield is like okay if they ran a background check on him it's like okay Quentin there's a Quentin Beck in this world so that's something that keep in mind you monitor his home and he's just suspiciously never home it's like okay that's another reason for suspicion to be raised another thing we know about the scrolls is that in Captain Marvel they've established that the scrolls are capable of seeming like recent memories of their host bodies so that like is the ultimate lie detector so if they had that then yeah they could just turn into Mysterio at some point find out if he's telling the truth and they would know oh this guy isn't telling the truth if they were to turn into Mysterio they basically had access to recent memories which would pretty much guarantee that they like he'd have recent memories of him interacting with his team and plotting basically um the scrolls are able to imitate the memories of the people that they is that recent memories yes that is established in Captain Marvel what does recent memories mean um so I guess I'll give an example because I watched it recently um so Captain Marvel aww um so like Carol says to a scroll did you know the password and I guess it's like something like a password would be recent enough for them to be aware of um I guess that's how far it goes when they were given the passcode um so I don't know recent I guess within like the day I guess I don't it's I hate how they settled the rules it's just it's not clear it can actually make them empty sorry can we so you had the two points right the first one of the background check the second one of the scroll so with the first one there was a quote that Quentin Beck says when he's talking about his plan with his buddies the story you created of a super soldier from another earth named Quentin fighting space monsters in Europe what do you think you can infer from that sentence uh that possibly his name isn't actually Quentin Beck um so is that like what you what you're implying here so that's how that's our first thing first right with the background check this could very well be an alias in which case it's going to be a lot harder for them to be able to verify who he is mm-hmm um so about that so that creates a question it's like okay so then if that's not actually his name then how did he how did Peter transfer control over to him what do we know about either well I mean if Peter Parker was going to transfer ownership over to John Smith I don't know do we do we just imagine that Edith has some sort of way of like it was registered name will be registered now because that's what they call him it's like if you know Edith will know him at the Quentin Beck he means that creature in front of him the Quentin Beck right in front of him whether or not he's named Quentin um but is there no recognition for uh back given he's like a start that there would be other people who live in this world who because if we imagine that like the idea of people from multiple dimensions that there could well be people who look like other people the question is what cause would you have to check if you've seen this dude fly in doing crazy magic so we're like let me double check the stock database or you know it's a see if Quentin if ever guy who might not even be named Quentin Beck who looks similar to you know it's a matter of when Peter's got the Edith glasses on and looks at Beck yeah cause it would show like the names they would pop up would it show his name doesn't that stuff show up when you like turned it on to ask about information uh no it does show the name it shows uh like for example yeah when it's on right when it's on right what if Shield said hey Peter can you check uh if this guy can you use Edith to check if this dude is telling the truth that screenshot doesn't help you though when it's on is it on in the scene where he's with Beck also wait why he didn't know why wouldn't this be answered by the multiverse oh yeah and of course cause the registry now of like Beck this is Beck Quentin Beck right and if they're right and to verify if he's actually telling the truth they can check like like for example his home if he's suspiciously does not have home so can we just are we are we gonna drop the Edith part cause they can't use it the only Peter can use it at this point in time what you were saying like oh with the glasses they can check to see if if uh if it's uh no no I said they could ask him to check they could say hey can you do this man I feel like at this point it's not even something they're even considering anymore he's already helped them out so many times what and he says he's from a different dimension so why would you even believe that like by scanning the glasses that you'd be able to figure anything out about Beck if you believe now that he is from another dimension to come to fight uh aliens and plus if we already have now that this face Quentin Beck whatever this guy is who they can assign the glasses to that he has his own file of like this is Mysterio why would they even be a problem with the name that shows up would be Quentin Beck um hmm I don't know because isn't this the thing that shield tries to do typically in verifying uh people's stories especially like even if they come from other well I mean we keep saying shield is this shield this is like fury and hill and their like thing that they're doing we keep calling them shield but what are they well yeah but they I guess they're like shield agents and you're right obviously what I mean it seemed to me what we saw of them might actually be their team and that they have some kind of access or coordination with possibly other groups but that's the problem so little world building is done in anything post game now that we don't really know what everyone's capabilities are yeah um I don't know how much credence you want to give the uh the Marvel cinematic universe wiki but they do refer to the um the the lady that tells Peter to take off his clothes is a shield agent okay yeah I mean it's it's it's not big deal it's just the idea of like what what is shield at this point in time yeah sure there's there's there's a pretty big difference if it's just like some private outfit by Nick fury and if it's shield yeah um yeah uh so I guess I guess the the broader thing was Peter the glasses are not on in that scene so he wouldn't see his name and even if he did I don't see why it wouldn't be the file that he probably has now that is I am Quentin Beck and fury did not have access to either so he couldn't have used that to uh to to get that information and as for whether or not he would feel compelled to I mean Mysterio has already come in saved his life and Maria's life and Talos she's not quite as distrusting as a fury I can believe we have real fury would be super hardcore like doing that but Talos has demonstrated to be a little less smart than fury sure but if you think that um if sorry if Talos was being sent by Nick fury to literally pretend to be him then don't you think that he would uh train him or prepare him in some way to act to react in situations the way that he would react it's kind of um I don't know how much he could prepare someone for that yeah let's say how much how much could you do and uh unfortunately we don't know the nature of fury's uh leaving we don't know if it was rushed well what what I would go with is like okay so if the scrolls are this like aren't as competent if they're just this incompetent then I don't know that this is incompetence I don't know that fury could have possibly known that they would have to deal with a guy who could do this it seemed to be that they were more so a stand-in yeah not that they had to do something like this it's better for them to be there to have a certain presence in the world than for no fury at all to be around fury's eyes and ears on earth while he's doing cosmic stuff and of course you need somebody to give Peter the glasses right and you need somebody to be to be doing that right now yeah so that that would be what I would say about all of that I don't know because with with how shield works like especially as we see in the first Avengers movie the thing that they consistently do is that they run background checks on their heroes they even keep tabs on them like you know in Winter Soldier, Nick Fury was he tells him that the place was bugged and then Pierce later on says did fury tell you that he was the one who bugged it it's like so he does keep tabs on the heroes that that are on his team because he's not entirely trusting of them real fury so we're dealing with we're in post end game and they've got nothing to really work with in Mysterio like does he have an apartment they can bugs probably not he's probably got way he probably goes invisible before he ever goes back to his layer sort of thing and as even if they did the background check and found out that there was a guy who looks like him who worked for Tony Stark I don't know if that's even and even if you knew that he worked on buff I don't even know if that's enough for you to be like maybe he's creating illusions to trick us because that was specifically like holograms to be used in like like a setup like as a projectors to for a stage not like that you would be able to use that text create these incredibly brilliant illusions and even then seems like he's helping you so I don't know what a background check would necessarily yield for him especially if Quint Beck is in his name which I think it's reasonable to infer that it's not right but yeah but the thing about you know oh well he's helping you like you can say this about Hydra as well because Hydra the situation with Hydra is literally bad guys pretending to be good guys so they even have president for the fact that just because someone's helping you doesn't mean you should just fully trust them I mean I imagine that Fury wouldn't have but this is Talos he's not quite the same as Fury trying to keep up with Mysterio in a way I have a question he was sending so I guess the idea is he only sent Talos to to give the glasses to Peter and like that's it right nothing else I would say that the broader objective the problem is that we don't fully know what he's doing so it's hard to say the soundness of his plan but based on what we have all I can imagine is it's better for people to think that I'm around even if it's a slightly inferior version of me then it would be for me to not exist in this world but this is subject to change depending on how future MCU projects yeah sure I mean it depends on what the explanation is it could be stronger or weaker it could be stronger or weaker it depends we'll have to see what comes of it in future I think all of this helps in explaining why Fury is behaving in ways that are a little out of character throughout the movie he's a little bit harsher he's a little bit meaner more standoffish the thing that gave it away to me was Fury's one of his traits is really good at dare I say manipulating slash accounting for his heroes emotional states he knows how to do it and he fumbles it with Peter and I was like he wouldn't have fumbled it that's ridiculous and it's not him okay I was just when I was first seeing it it was the fact that he just he acted a little bit more bumbling this time around than he usually does it's a way where you watch his behavior and it's like I can believe that that's the guy from Captain Marvel not Nick Fury you know I think that Samuel L. Jackson does a decent job at playing Ben Mendelsohn so so what else do you have? so if you're sending him to ensure to the world yeah we do have Nick Fury is still around it's like okay then you would want him to be prepared to physically be qualified to be like Nick Fury because if you don't do that then that can I thought we didn't talk about the whole thing of just like whatever training you give I'm not sure that Talos could have ever been prepared for the role of Nick Fury or yeah fully even the role of Nick Fury yeah like you knew your parents but if that would be no one at all I guess is the question then somebody who just isn't as good as you at it I guess like with the whole they need to give Peter the glasses thing like would it that's one reason why you might want to have Fury around a fake Fury what if crazy things are happening on Earth and you need someone to let you know but hey you can have that guy double up and pretend to be you and keep a tab on things because I mean if there's no Nick Fury hmm make sure wonder about how like much easier it might be to be able to get away with certain things well the thing is for me I guess it's that um if someone that's impersonating Nick Fury fucks up um as impersonating as Nick Fury um that could basically fall back on Nick Fury like Fury is basically taking a risk by having anyone impersonate him and essentially take it to mantle he's taking a risk if there's nobody around at all yeah and it seems to me that Talos is like his secretary almost his eyes and he is yeah and he owes him big time well because when he called he's like oh hey so you know things didn't go as plans and you know people wonder where the events are it's like yeah it seems almost like that's his role he's like hey so if the happening's on earth yes he does like oh or maybe he's I mean I don't know what that means other than he might be working on it like he's got the information he needs hmm uh see ya yeah I'll think on that one I think that could work I don't know I'm gonna check on them when I when I rewatch uh see what else okay so um right before the prog fight they say like you know they still won't evacuate the city right so why is that the case if shield has proof of the elementals being real as we like we have president of this from the three other elementals and they have proof of when they'll be there and that they will be there with satellites so why don't they evacuate prog uh I don't know that proof is substantial enough picture yourself as prog you're like we have footage of this weird rock monster another one's gonna come in your city he's like the fuck is any of oh also we got like a giant festival that makes us a shit ton of money so um yeah but the thing is it's like um was that it's like the Jaws thing right where it's like oh they're sharks well this is like our biggest day of the year so fuck that it's kind of the same situation I'm guessing and yeah I just I don't know that they have enough reason to believe it will be like well it has happened three times and mysterio knows mysterio and shield knew that this stuff would happen so but like this is prog and who was shield to them you know again you gotta remember post end game this is a different build like I could just totally picture them being like fuck off um would they would they believe mysterio though this isn't the whole point like um but they believe that these things are real he's from an alternate dimension um they would have mysterio vouch for them to well mysterio is brand new on the theme at this point this is part of the thing he's still got work to do to really establish himself as like the hero that everybody should listen to yeah because they haven't even heard of him until Venice right our characters well doesn't know who he is yet until Venice that's right yeah that's where mysterio comes from man of mystery me okay um yeah I think that's fair enough uh the last thing I think we touched upon this briefly but um Taylor says like you know people are asking where the avengers are and I don't know what to say to that um but it's like okay so did he know where they were um this whole time or what what what's the what's the situation here I'm gonna go ahead I would just assume like he has no way to contact doctor strange doesn't even know where to begin with contacting someone who's in a different dimension um and then well it's like wonder is best bet is those people what were they called in uh were they shield in in one division that's what so you might be able to get a line with sword and then they're not going to tell them anything about what's happening in Westview like yeah okay I wouldn't even and we can we could safely assume that they're factoring in one division when writing this right um maybe well so let's pretend for a second that one division doesn't exist then I would be saying I guess he has no way of contacting wander she must be up to something and that we'll find out what it is in a later installment which technically one division does account for that despite it's shittiness she's off the grid yeah you know and and yeah in another dimension it's just like this is stuff that fury would find hard I imagine and so he's he's especially out of his depth uh he's doing the best he can alright um I don't know I'll think about that when I when I go back to it I think that that could be valid um when I head back to um soldier we're um we're at a point now we can start doing some summarizing for total damage like you guys still have some points left to make oh yeah um I guess with with you want to go with Peter Parker you know what sure when it's let's do it we are being southpaw about that well I mean that's case the one that's uh you know more qualified to handle this I think sure therefore so um stereo says that him and his whole battalion could not stop the fire elemental right um and he's also told that nobody else is available to help right yeah oh why is it that he's just like no I'm not going to do anything I'm going to go on vacation so you know what I feel like there's a lot of context that you've left out in that summary of a of that scene that's just happened you know what I just want to go on vacation so he starts with a lot of things when he gets explained this first he's like oh you know like I just I'm just friendly neighborhood spider-man's like why is this relevant well remember his frame of mind he's just come back from going on a massive war and died he died which is the important thing as well and his mentor died and he's been doing stuff for a while said nobody to talk to he has no confidence in himself he doesn't actually think that he's in a position to help and he's kind of right because he can't help nearly as much as Mario can deal with this situation and every person that he lists who could help out is more qualified than him now as you said he's that they're not available so it's like oh there is that to which he immediately moves on to he's worried about the consequences of revealing himself to the world and the damage that that's going to have on his life that's a thought that he has whether or not that's relevant or like whether or not that is broadly relevant to the case that he's trying to make whether or not he think like whether or not that's a really good point is not what matters what matters is what does he think is a good point what's his frame of mind but I feel like the big thing that really helps out in terms of sort of demonstrating what position Peter is in in terms of his character is fury says alright you can leave why would fury let him leave if it was a world-ending threats Peter must be thinking so firstly I would like to go through like the whole yeah point by point sure yeah yeah so the one word like you mentioned he died and that Tony died and I'll start there so here's the thing despite that he's still willing to help out the water monster yeah his god instinct is to help that's who Peter Parker is good guy right but I think with that saying that that gives I don't think the whole well Tony died and he died is enough to stop him from saving people if he's if he was willing to help out in that situation especially if this is why I buy that especially this time around you have a you know a monster that's probably going to destroy the world so what people do out of instinct tends to tell you a lot about who that person is Peter when he sees a threat and sees the people are in danger in front of him immediately jumps in without any regard for his safety or even his secret identity he just jumps in he helps because that's who he is when he's in a situation where his brain can start telling him things like he's overthinking things which we know he's doing you can start to trick yourself and say things that you don't really believe or things that you don't actually fully sort of subscribe to a like things that things that don't really hit home to who you really are and I think here's the big thing if fury had pushed back on Peter more do you think he would have like run off like run away do you think that's what would have happened at the end of that scene what do you think he would have helped I think he would have he would have helped from the start I don't see any reason you think he would have helped from the start you do from well if he if once he's told that nobody can help in that Mysterio couldn't handle it's like yeah from there he would have helped he was told that Mysterio couldn't handle it even though he saw Mysterio handle it they're asking for his help that's true but what do you mean the reason I say it's different is because the fire elemental was said to be the most powerful one and that's the one that destroyed his world it wasn't it wasn't the one but you know what Peter got pushed back Peter expected pushback when he talked about a secret entity thing and then he didn't and then he left if he got pushed back he definitely would have helped he would have he wouldn't have run away like if Fury said nah you're helping us like you are you're not leaving Peter's not running away he's gonna help yeah that's because he's surprised like oh what I was trying to do actually work like he was like he's trying to get out of it with fake excuses fake excuses these are legitimate points we can we can go over that well we're on the whole like Tony died he died do you agree like that would not be enough for him to not be willing to help people to help people when he sees that there's somebody else who can help and it's not right in front of his eyes because and I feel like just immaturity is an element that needs to be remembered he's a kid like why do you why do we believe that he would be totally in the right frame of mind to be able to jump in and help and just be so eager when we already know that he's not doing well because he does that in Homecoming he does that in Infinity War he did before he died yeah before he died but he did it in this movie when the thing was right in front of him when the thing was right in front of him yeah he did but all those other ones out before he died okay would you be happier if in the scene with the water monster he turned his back and walked away no because that would be character assassination oh so it's not then right so he actually did help when he saw that monster in front of him right but I don't have an issue with that one I'm talking about the one at Prague yeah but you're saying that this supports the idea that he would immediately jump into it like that he would presented with the choice of hey we you know help us with this one that that just immediately supports the idea that he would if the states are they let him leave though so what are the stakes if they let him leave if you try to make it so if fury if fury says this is like a big deal and then he says no I know sorry no I'm not I know and then furious like okay furious clearly not concerned that this is like gonna end the world at least from Peter's perspective no he that was his whole plan he was trying to make fake excuse no so they're not fake excuses you keep saying that but they're not well I mean we can get into that but we're just hold on yeah okay so point by point in terms of like the things that he says so number one I'm a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man this is like beyond me do you think that that's an illegitimate point for him to bring up that is an illegitimate point because why why be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood yeah that was before he died right but we already brought up the fact okay he died and Tony died he was still willing to help out with the water monster yeah that's one right in front of him that didn't seem like a world ending threat so so so the thing that he does I feel like it's really important to make this distinction do you think that there is no difference between the thing that you do out of instinct and the thing that you do when your brain is starting to talk for you um one thing out of instinct out of instinct you have less time to think and understand what yeah it's more true to what you actually believe I would say what you do out of instinct right but when you contribute and I think I think that I don't think that this is I think that this might just be a difference of perspective but you know what you can overthink things you can just have irrational things pop into your head that misleads you that is entirely possible when you have more time to think than when you have less time to think less time generally it is the thing that is your gut reaction of like this is right this is what I need to do and that's what Peter does the gut reaction is help when his mind starts playing tricks on him it's like oh wait no I'm not I can't help here no I I'm worried about my secret identity no I I don't want to get my friends in trouble or when he's told that the stakes are the like the entire world and yeah but then they let him leave they let him leave he was expecting to be fine he doesn't know that they were going to let him leave though he was expecting more pushback from fury he was shocked that he didn't get more pushback from fury and that leaves me to believe that yeah but here's the important part if he got pushed more do you think that he would have stayed and helped I don't know um what do you mean you don't know you think he would have run away you really would have run away the answer is yes I'm not saying that he would have definitively run away I don't know how he would have reacted back I don't know how much more pushback he would have had to have gotten because you can see that oh fury fury says this will end the world we need you we need you you're coming you think that Peter would have run away if fury said that no so then I think we can agree that this is not character assassination then because it means that when push comes to shove he's going to help in that immediate moment he won't run away he will not run away he's not going to turn his back like if the fire element popped up before him he wouldn't have run away if he hadn't gone to Prague well the problem is that we're dealing with a hypothetical of well if if fury did something differently than he did in this yeah so fury did something differently that's right the point the point is making if fury did anything differently the impression Peter is given is that he's not needed but that's not true because again he was just told that you can't say that no one because he can't go no that's that's after he already tries to give excuses to get out of it it doesn't matter he is let go that's after he tried to get out of it he is let go he is let go so he doesn't believe he's not he's needed if he was needed he wouldn't have been let go hang on hang on so here's the thing he is told that the world will that when Mysterio and a battalion mind you went against the fire elemental they lost and they have nobody else to help them at that point he should know that he's needed except they let him go and in an isolated situation I think you would be right but now you have to factor in every single other mental position he has as well as well just to run down them again right desperate for a break wants to live a normal life is experiencing significant PTSD survived a war died watched his mentor died doesn't believe he's the right person to be the saviour of the world he wants to hang out with MJ and his friends he's lost literally the person who was guiding him on all things related to superheroes he thinks he's going to blow his cover and put everyone he loves in danger he thinks they're going to be able to handle it he's told he can leave yeah but why would he think that when he's just told that because he's a 6 ton year old who is going through extremely tough shit this is the most stress most like I don't even know how many characters experience more than this in the MCU what are you talking about just because he's a 16 year old that doesn't negate the fact that he was no so that so critical is what it's not about whether he's right it's about whether he believes this to be true yeah but he wouldn't believe this to be true why though because he's just told like once again him mysterious and a battalion could not stop the fire on the mental and he's told nobody else is available so you're going to tell me that he just but then they wouldn't believe me I don't know hang on they don't need him but you're citing a scene that happens you're citing a line that happens afterwards so here's the thing he still tries to push back yes but that doesn't I have a better question though if those excuses are like fake excuses if they're fake excuses would you agree that it is against this character but you're never going to get me on them being fake positions because these are legitimate points to bring up well I'm asking if that was the case would you well what do you mean by fake do you mean like fake is in he doesn't actually believe in them and he's just trying to get out of getting in danger what do you mean yeah well either he wouldn't believe in them or it's out of character to believe in them then how would that be a lie yeah well because I have I have a couple things to say about that and itself so firstly um letting people die just to keep your secret identity um like is Jonathan Kent his Uncle Ben or something like for Man of Steel it's like this is what this sounds like here no you've completely reframed what we're talking about here like you've gone off the rails so this is a reason for him to not want to get involved if he is told that's not a good enough reason then he's just going to do it that's the whole point of this scene he's told that it's chill and he can leave yeah um to be to be analogous with the Jonathan Kent scene it would be like if Spider-Man saw the water elemental walked away and then Jonathan Kent was like good job Peter that was the right thing to do right but he's basically doing this right here except he's just it's just prolonged until like there's more time he has to prepare for the fire elemental and he's doing nothing um well how far do you want to extend this there's a lot of things that heroes don't do anything about in the world they're not constantly active this is a kid who's desperate for a break but here's the thing you can't have a break if the world gets destroyed yeah but remember he doesn't think the world is going to get destroyed that's the key part he doesn't believe the world is going to be destroyed without him after being told that Mysterio and his entire battalion couldn't stop it and that no one else is available he thinks that the world won't get destroyed and the fire elemental shows up the most so they let him go no they don't okay not right away yes from his perspective they do yes they do they let him go no no hang on hang on so hang on hang on hang on so he says um when he says uh what about this uh this person that person and they say no he he makes the excuse oh but my identity yes that worked so there's many things he could have said he was trying to guys already gone I said there's plenty of things he could have said there's all kinds of reasons he could have brought up but none of them are going to be good enough if the threat is truly for the world but to his surprise Yuri concedes he's like yeah you know what you're right you can you can actually set this one out right but he does like well here's the thing his plan going into the um this conversation was to try to find excuses not to do anything about it um no his his plan was not to do that was not his plan he wasn't walking into that bunker immediately like oh what what well no no no I mean like afterwards like after being told the information yeah when he's told hey this is like you know that we you need to come help us do this mission but they don't need him because that's ultimately the important or moreover it's not that they don't need him it's that Peter believes that they don't need him to because they let him leave and you have to remember he also thinks he's kind of useless right now and he thinks he shouldn't be involved in world saving events and that again super stressed out he's terrified I think it's it's so important not to underplay that he is not in a good frame of mind this is what the film's about is getting back up on his feet after he's died and lost the person who's guiding him on being a superhero so I'd like to get back to one of the things that so what the whole identity thing and he says you know I gotta keep my secret identity what good is a secret identity if the world is destroyed I feel like you didn't listen to anything we just said yeah um well I mean I want to go point by point on this because there's a lot of a lot to break down here well the problem is that whatever you want to break down if we can't get past this fundamental point which is not going to agree on this one well I mean the problem with this point is like oh well he doesn't think he'd be useful it's like well he was useful he saved people's lives with the with the water elemental because again we see that what is it like an orphanage nearly gets destroyed by collateral damage and he saves them there so whether or not he is capable of saving them doesn't mean that he would necessarily believe how useful he is people can be incredibly talented at things and believe that they suck that is entirely possible whether or not there's evidence to prove one way or another wait what sorry I was just like he has more reason to believe that if he doesn't show up then people are going to get hurt because again this is totally rational agent yes if he is a 100% rational agent zero stress or anything you don't need to be 100% you don't need to be 100% rational to know this he could believe that he could cause more harm that is not that he caused more harm it's not about whether or not how it's whether or not he believes that it's possible that he could cause more harm right I'm asking why does he believe that what if he fucks up like what if he makes a mistake that would have been better if he wasn't there at all I was gonna say why do we why would you need a specific reference this whole film is self-doubt he just he also doesn't want to die again yes there's that as well and he's a 16 year old kid so you know what right you're gonna die anyway if you don't he doesn't believe that he doesn't believe that like you keep using the reference yeah we keep responding with he doesn't believe that that he has no reason to believe that there's plenty of reason to believe I would believe it I was surprised when they let him go I was like oh I'll be that serious mm-hmm yeah what what a character believes is in discussions like these often in fact it is more important than what the actual case is especially if they're being deceived or if they're not thinking clearly that's the the frame you have to look at things because yeah it's not about whether or not he's totally rational or whether or not he's 100% correct it's about what's in character for him to think what or what anybody sure right but I'm just basing it off the information that he's been told and what you're saying that he believes contradicts what he's been told well it except it doesn't because they let him go so clearly he isn't that important we're talking even after like he's told the information he still tries to weasel out of it yeah but remember remember the first instance where he says I can't help his immediate thought is what about all these other people so it's not like he's just running away from them like his immediate thought is there's gotta be someone else who's better qualified right so how do you paint that as like a full out character assassination that Peter would be like hey maybe Thor would be more useful which is true Thor would be more useful well that's not the issue I take with it the issue I take with it is that he's told that no one else is available he's told that Mysterio couldn't handle it yet he's still trying to get out of it he still plans to do nothing about it under the belief that plans to do nothing is a bit of a jump because again the reason why we keep bringing this up is if Fury had said mother fucker you are working with us to save the world I guarantee you he would have been like okay okay yeah and that's that's the important part how do you run away then I would agree that that's character assassination but that's not what would have happened well what information does would he get out of fury saying that so Fury is just putting the foot down like you are necessary in no uncertain terms but he needs to be told that to understand he's a kid he's literally a kid okay just because you're a kid doesn't mean like it also doesn't mean it's not that way dude he died okay and what's your point here do you think he's not in a good frame of mind yeah like he died he his mentor died in front of him right and he was still willing to help with the water monster so I don't think that holds so do you do you just totally disagree with the idea that what people do out of instincts is like that that is there is a difference between that and what people do when their brain is in play well if he has more time to process and understand the stakes in the situation you would think he'd be more willing to help out so there's something called catastrophizing which is where you just run away with your thoughts and it makes everything seem catastrophic when in reality thinking won't help you you just need to slow down and not be overwhelmed by your thoughts but the things you do out of instinct I think that speaks very true to who you are as a person like if you see somebody in trouble and you run in straight away to help that might not have been something you'd have done if somebody came up to you and said hey we need your help in like another day to come along and help us out with this thing so you don't go on waste to talk your way out of it because you know scared or whatever but like maybe in that moment you run in and help I think that means that you're the type of person who's going to run in and help I think that's an easy thing to pull away from that it kind of goes both ways in that there's people out there that would assume that they would come in and help someone and they wouldn't exactly and I mean there's a personal experience like I had involving someone getting kind of assaulted or abused in a public parking lot without even thinking about starting coming over there to try to stop but the guy got away surely you can see what I mean where if you had more time to think you might rationalize reasons why you shouldn't help that there is a negative thinking going on well yeah I was really thinking about how dangerous it could have been for me it wasn't something I really thought I would ever do because I don't like to be of the mindset where yeah if this thing were to happen in real life and I were to witness it I would totally take action something that's really relatable for a lot of people is when you're a kid and you go to the swimming pool and you're on the diving board or the high dive like one of the things that you pretty much everyone gets told is don't think about it just do it the more you sit up there staring down at the water think about how terrifying and awful it'll be the more hesitant you'll be if you push them in and they're in and they're like oh it wasn't so bad actually yeah and it's kind of like what May said you know don't overthink it just trust your instincts you'll be fine it's like a microcosm for everything that's going on with Peter in that movie yeah and it's happening now because of everything that just happened to him in the timeline yes and I think it's bold and we see that in the instance where he didn't have time to think he just runs it go ahead and more I was just going to say it's bold of them to explore this because I think it's not something that we like to have to rationalize that like we like to think of our heroes as basically perfect a lot of them in terms of their desire to just run out and help it's like this is totally a real thing where he's like Jesus Christ like what am I doing I'm way over my head and it's like we've got another will to save it's like I can't like I don't know and then just throwing out reasons because he's beyond exploding in his head yeah at the beginning of the movie with that interview he's like hey do we have any questions about the neighborhood it's like yeah he's trying to keep it down but they keep asking like what if aliens come back what are you going to do it's like dude he's not in a position to be like dealing with this I'm not sure how I know about it because there's there's just two different brain waves for me happening here one is just the fact that he's being told that there's this imminent potentially world ending threat coming to Prague but then of course there is the trauma that he's experienced because and the fact that he is what 16 17 he's more he's 16 okay it's a little confusing to me because of that homecoming took like he was 15 in civil war and homecoming I thought he was 14 in civil war actually maybe I'm wrong but he's still a teenager he's under 18 yeah whatever age he is it's like you know your brain chemistry is going to be even more volatile and your emotional health at the same time at that age then you will as an adult and so that's the thing to factor in as well I'm just I'm having a difficult time like reconciling those two different things here so I think it's just a disconnect maybe of like the fully rational perspective is you know help but from Peter's perspective there's a lot of conflicting thoughts and a lot of reasons why those thoughts are there it's not unsupported is the big part we have references in the movie that tell us what frame of mind and you know just in the other movies he did die he fought in a massive battle and he nearly got blown up by the reigning fire and then he sure his mentor would die it's a lot to go through especially when you have no one to talk to about it it's why it's why Beck is so able to so easily able to manipulate him because it's like that's exactly what he needs right now do you want to keep going on this one or okay I guess we're just going to we might have to call the stalemate yeah sure and I also I also want to I also want to eat well all right well well it's time I think for my nuclear take I suppose now I'm assuming you guys have been curious about how we so just definitively call that one is worse than the other when you might say if you categorize the issues like what exactly are the issues with the Winter Soldier for character now we've given a pretty strong inkling we are not happy with Zola we're very not happy with Fury we're very not happy with Winter Soldier these are serious damage to all of them but Steve Rogers is thoroughly assassinated in Winter Soldier wait hold on to Claire I think I said earlier that you were happy with Natasha and you were happy with Winter Soldier no I'm definitely not happy with Winter Soldier if I said that that was there's misspeak yeah so if you were happy with Natasha and who else that's it that's it yeah gotcha okay it's inexcusable what they did to cap in Winter Soldier and it's something I felt for a while but just keep quiet on because I know that it's one of the most unpopular opinions in history I kind of gave it away where I've talked about Civil War fixing Winter Soldier many times being that they hold him accountable for the damage he did and I do maybe I do love Civil War a little bit for that because it really helps rescue this film but cap is stupid selfish and insane like psychopathic and he's been destroyed by Winter Soldier but I'd say the other movies in the franchise kind of heal him up until he hits endgame and then he's destroyed again and then he's destroyed again so it's trophic yeah where to begin I suppose by other movies in the franchise you also include Age of Ultron I guess yes I like him in Age of Ultron quite a bit okay in fact I honestly think Age of Ultron compensates quite a bit for this film they take they push him all the way back into being what I think cap is where he's not willing to leave the rock without every single civilian getting off there with him I think that's awesome and totally what cap would say I don't think what he does in this fucking movies anything close to what cap would do so the most important reference will come I guess second the first one we mentioned it but now I want to really hit home how fucking dumb it is he decides to get his suit from I assume the Smithsonian instead of heading to project insight that is set to kill a million well 700,000 people every second counts and he fucks off to get his suit it's not even bulletproof by the way yeah that is painful to watch it actually really cool to see him like take this on in a street clothes if they're going to go head on like this you know no he needs to get his suit all right it's for the it's simple he needs to inspire the people in the shield Triskelion who turn and help him out the people in that building who come to his aid in his moment of need so from what we understand he has decided on his up by the way the theme I I've seen people celebrate winter soldier for its approach of the theme of security versus freedom and I think that's laughable they do nothing with it they literally like hey you know what's better than freedom having a gun to everybody on it so we can kill them before they even commit the crime they literally do fucking minority report and it's like they brush that off real quick caps like I don't like that I think that's bad and no one should have the power to just have a whole handgun to the world and it's like cap we have more than enough of arms of this already I don't know where you've been so it's like really weird but also these things are the very things we need to fight off stuff like Loki like without super heroes this is humanity's best option doesn't get none of this is discussed he just throws it out he's like nah bad idea okay that's nuance and by the end of the film they basically say yeah freedoms better than security we're done it's like what no you didn't answer you didn't explore any of this one of the big frustrations for me is the cap never gives a fuck about why anybody in the world is a part of Hydra why Hydra exists why everyone's ideology is this way he's just like nah you're the bad guys I'm gonna beat you and maybe you might say like well does he need to and it's like I think if you're gonna be trying to broach the subject you should try and get to know the people who are like security first freedom last it's like at least talk about it the film is literally like freedoms the best woohoo let's let's kill everyone it's fucking absurd but putting that aside he's like no one should have the helicarious we blow them up and now if you can see this is where they are cap knows this these motherfuckers could land anywhere look how close we are to civilian populations this is insane cap would never do this we have them neutralized we can land them and he refuses and says no blow them up and it's so funny this film is like but cap if we blow them up while you're on it you might not make it it's like yeah he might not make it all the people who gave their lives to fucking fight for him and the triskelion might not make it all the ones that are still alive all the civilians running around having their day to day might not make it not a single tear shed for any of them don't give a fuck and the trade lives the sad part is nobody else brings it up at least if I was just him and everyone else is like how can we do it it's not it's still catastrophic but having every other character be like yeah this is fine and no he nearly kills falcon and nobody mentions it yeah and but even though he nearly kills falcon we know that he killed innocent people in the triskelion people on his side because there are a lot of target thoughts in the triskelion when they're about to fight that building was not evacuated and that's again it doesn't even matter because it could have crashed into Washington DC what if they went to the to the right or to the left where all the buildings are look at that this is inexcusable this is absurd and it's so fucking funny to watch cap grandstand Tony in age of ultron when he's done this like oh you're a fucking you're a legend aren't you boy you're the one with a clean slate and yeah it's so cool when civil war just shows the people screaming as these things land it's like yeah you did that cap you fucker it's like the biggest floor in his character but it's too much for me I don't believe cap would have done this and if he did do it you have to have him incredibly regretful of the decision but they don't they don't even acknowledge it the ending is like we did it everyone we beat the bad guys like mother fuck what you did he saved us he saved us it's just amusing because like even if no civilians died they could have but shield people died absolutely he traded those lives he doesn't shed a tear for the people who risked their lives to help him out because nobody should have this technology and that's for cats in America alone to decide which is another knock against the theme the messages hopefully one man will decide whether or not we're allowed to protect ourselves as a as a state it's like fuck off mm-hmm the Triskelians and remember the Triskelians are such useful weapons not the Triskelians but the Helicariers the Helicariers are so effective as weapons that at 3,000 feet they can kill people in New York this is really useful weapons well yeah it makes you wonder for whatever issues anybody could pull from the drones the fact that apparently these things are so good that they can kill people 400 kilometers away at 3,000 feet they have guns that can exist I guess they can account for 4,000, do you say 400 or 4,000 miles sorry I think it was 400 miles or 400 kilometers to New York which is part of this the target area to shoot someone from where you are 400 miles away or whatever do you understand how much you have to account for to be able to nail that shot apparently they can shoot it as far west as Columbus or higher for Maryland at 3,000 feet and anybody's gonna bring up any issues to do with how the drones work compared to this so first of all Hydra start World War 3 straight away there is no economy it's over they plan to wipe out 20 million Americans they think this is a good plan and they believe from Zola's algorithm which holy fuck if it said this was the plan I'd be like guys maybe don't trust the 70s AI German I don't know I feel like this is a bit sus but you kill 20 million Americans and the rest of them will submit you know this to be true if you're accounted for the rest of the world if you're accounted for how China launched one nuke and knock out your three helicarriers Russia or the United Kingdom or France as if all of the world is gonna watch you wipe out even the rest of the United States military apparatus yeah they're not just gonna you know you have people who are timid right and they're like oh I'll stay under the boot of Hydra yeah they have the whole family killed they're like okay I'm feeling a little bit different about this now I feel does the algorithm account for this like how everyone's gonna behave after all of their family is killed like I wonder yeah and all of this is for control that's Hydra's ultimate goal because chaos is bad it's not like anything chaotic will happen with half of the people who died in World War 2 dying in a couple of days well to bolster as well again with the theme it's like you see full security they kill everyone it's like what the fuck are you talking about Hydra represents security god to the extremes of murdering 20 million people you're like fuck off that's so stupid how could this ever benefit them really really stupid and again they would have succeeded if Winter Soldier wasn't so fucking stupid that he made all of the worst possible decisions when it comes to assassinating people which assassinates him because we're told yes he assassinates himself the world's greatest assassin of all time he's passed through 50 years he's done all kinds of amazing jobs he's not known by any intelligence agencies he's a buffoon in the entire fucking movie makes all of the wrong decisions I mean and you know he nearly killed Fury at least he's got that he nearly killed him and that's okay because Fury helps finish him off himself off there's a lot of little bonus information coming out here but every time on eFap where I say Winter Soldier is super intimidating in his two movies it's like nah I just met Civil War not Winter Soldier that's right it's not even close he is such an idiot in this movie now can you at least at this point appreciate I felt like mostly this way about Winter Soldier from fucking ages and all I get told by most people is it's the best movie in the MCU the little bit frustrated you know what it's really amusing because when I re-watched Winter Soldier I wasn't paying as much attention as I needed to I arrived it's it's catastrophic yeah I mean here's the thing I didn't think about most of these issues when I first saw the movie I spotted some spotted others over time spotted a lot when re-watching Miss of Heaven but there's quite a bit that you guys are pointing out that I missed too but yet everybody was so sure it was so sure that Far From Harm was so much worse than Winter Soldier do you guys feel any differently on that or are you still undecided um so undecided right now but I think both of them are pretty weak yeah I just like forgive me but I just feel like they're so clear cut the insane issues in Winter Soldier there's so many of them cause it's just you stack them up plot armor and Far From Harm it's like that but more characters were I feel like more characters were assassinated more clearly well yeah Hydra has way more resources than Mysterio for sure and villains as far as villains go holy shit Hydra is fucking stupid completely squandered I think with Zola after this stuff we went over with Zola it seems like yeah they've pretty much assassinated Zola he's a totally he's a very different person that's for sure I was one of the things that I noticed when I first watched the movie was like I don't remember Zola being like this in the first Avenger but see when I first saw it I was like whatever cause 2014 it's like I wasn't pretty really consistent in this stuff all I remember is like seeing shit like Dark Knight Rises that was the first one where I'm like holy shit this plot complete garbage but yeah so when we look at this in totality it's like so Winter Soldier plot garbage it breaks significantly at several points it catastrophically characters is like hey we've got Black Widow but like everybody else it's not even that they're static it's that they're significantly damaged if not destroyed theme really simplistic and not supported by the the text itself like it's not in this it's actually absurd like it believes we should destroy the helicarious that is the correct answer even though that's just so not true and they save Cap's life in Age of Ultron proved them wrong eventually well he was already wrong cause it's just Earth needs defences Cap like are you nuts when you draw the light and they don't address any of this they don't talk about any of it it's simple that's right but like far from home talking about like what is it where do you sit in the world what should you do when everything's like falling apart around you I just I like the the plane scene I think it's fucking fantastic good good stuff great character yeah it's great it's on theme and it's on character and and then it's like world-building far from home doesn't do a great job this movie just Iron Man doesn't exist all of these other entities don't exist it doesn't take account of anything that came before and it certainly can't really factor in as well into what comes afterwards it absolutely fucked Joss Whedon up he didn't even know that we were going to get rid of Shield yeah why do people like this movie so much as the thing why is this movie so popular I think I can tell you go for it I think firstly it's well-paced and as a movie in terms of things are constantly kind of happening you never really I think it's paced well for general audiences to reach onto it and keep with it there's not really many scenes that I think most people would go oh can this get over so we can go to the next thing it has that vibe of a action spy thriller almost it's very it's one of those surface in terms of movie this is very much a Hollywood look at the heroes fighting the evil bad guys actions, suspense, explosions gunshots a little bit of character sprinkled in super interesting thing to figure out what people do like about it ok rags was almost a test subject for this and I didn't blame him whatsoever the only time I've remembered this was in prep for this debate I said to rags how did they get to the Nazi AI I was like oh you know they arrived by car no no no what led them to the Nazi AI and it's like I don't remember I couldn't remember I tried to remember and I couldn't what took them where did they go after the Nazi AI what was the information they gained where did they go and it's like I don't know if you so people who've seen this movie really hard to recall how everything connects but you don't care because the action scenes are really cool and uh you really like like all the actors are on point and it's really a big action and the stakes are so high and you get loads of revelations stakes are high it's a very cleared good it's bad music is good and again like someone who says like this is their favorite MCU movie I would have loved to have asked them those questions it's like what do they get from the USP they'll be like oh sorry that's already giving them too much information they'll be like oh yeah I think they found it because you know they yeah they you know they were looking for uh they're vaguely recalling the actual plot points they just get lost in the movie as they as they watch it yeah things move really quickly and to be honest with you I'm pretty sure it was only within the last couple of days the USP scene was something that I was like I need to actually listen to this because I've never really listened to it like how did they get it and it's just really strange you try and figure out what even they're saying that happened and it's very very like movies full of it and um yeah I think they did a fantastic job of sort of it's kind of like Spider-Man 2 I think it's um it's that elusive elusive element I don't know what we'll call it but a movie if they has that element with all kinds of shit is it called fun? could be entertainment it's like it's a fun movie to watch there are so many ways to um to essentially capture fun because like a lot of us can get a lot of fun out of stuff making sense someone else might be bored by that and they just want to see the silver ball roll across and then blow up and Natasha jump on top of Bucky and try and try and kill him with her wire your fights well uh yeah I don't know obviously there's probably more details both sides could go over with both movies but I feel like the case has been made like my goal like I said was to really gun through a lot of what's wrong with Winter Soldier I feel like at this point there could be extra things that Mean Fringon could mention to hurt it more and more but uh the the the number for me is it's a 2 and it's it's just it's sitting like a sad clown on a 2 it's a really low it's really low in the MCU oh yeah this is the MCU and it's worse and people are like what this is worse than I thought I remember when I I don't know it's just it's a lot worse than I thought even after my my role watch for the endgame video it's probably only going to get worse over time because speaking from experience with Spider-Man 2 there's been like more and more discussions that me and Eskimo have had about that movie and how inconsistent it's like so Harry thinks that Spider-Man Kill is dad he knows that there's this newspaper called The Daily Bugle with an anti Spider-Man bias why don't you go to the Daily Bugle but it's that sort of thing right there's implications about the first movie's ending sets up that's completely ignored in the second movie and I like completely missed that shit while I was like gunning for that film I was gunning for it hard and it's like it's one of the things where when there's this many things when there's this many central fundamental issues with the story it's only going to like multiply over time it's like the last Jedi I'm excited to revisit it and you know it's it's people when you hear like oh Far From Homes like Winter Soldier is worse than Far From Home it's one of those things where it's like nah come on nah no way do you mind if I yes why indeed you start sir do you mind if I publicly drop my current take on it right now well you guys welcome to do whatever you want yeah wait let me clarify are all five people here happy for this to go out I'm totally happy with this to go out yeah I am absolutely yeah well Rags you're the last one yeah well I suppose it's okay if everybody learns about EFAP's newest incredible hot take why not we do have a reputation to keep dude it'll happen someone will see a new take we happen to go these are the guys that hate Winter Soldier by the way I don't know if I agree with you guys on everything you've said about Far From Home but I don't have particularly any disagreements to voice about the Winter Soldier it's garbage like I mean there's a couple things where I was able to push back but you know I'll be curious I'm assuming you guys possibly feel that Far From Home is in the two categories while would you at least say it's like a 2.5 compared to this is a 2.2 or something yeah honestly I would say yeah like gun in my head like yeah 2.1 or 2 for Winter Soldier 2.5 or 6 for Far From Home what about you yeah yeah probably the same thing it's like given what you guys have given me again without rewatching the movies with all the all the stuff that you've said in mind right I'd go yeah there seems to be a difference in quality between these two movies yeah that's cool I'd be down like you know after not today obviously but at some point like if you want to talk more about the movie and you know in preparation for a little video on making that'd be cool yeah you know what shoot me a message if you want to talk about it it's going to have to be sooner rather than later because this is soon to be flushed out of my brain yeah like I'm happy to not have to look at these notes ever again really revisit these movies but I mean you know what I'm so glad to hear that however if I were to tell you my perspective is that I think that there is a reasonably noticeable difference between these two films I don't think that it's close though I wouldn't call Far From Home a good movie I'm not even sure that I could be pushed up too I think that there are problems for sure and like the way that things hang together yeah but I mean Winter Soldier what score would you catastrophic it would be between 3 and 4 for me with Far From Home but this is just categorically a 2 hey I mean I'm glad that we at least got you guys down to a 4 or 3 but yeah that's that's cool Winter Soldier is worse though that's the worst one I'm just glad that we could drag you down to a 6 yeah yeah and I'm glad that we could finally talk about how Winter Soldier it's not good I do feel a little like a weight is off I could finally be open about what you said I feel like this might be the best debate that you guys have done on your show they're gonna say you buy a South Pole because you're in it cause you're on it yeah even though I'm like on the losing side but like, I don't know we came together we share a very similar standard and all parties involved came away with new information and developed their opinions a little differently I guess we all are different people now than we were when we entered the ball now I really like this I think this is a good format we actually got what we were gunning for this should come out next Sunday Saturday so the week's time they'll see it the tummy is grumbling right now well, if you guys want to do me, Rax and Fran can skip this but if you guys would like to talk about your channels why people should subscribe, they'll find a link in the description tell them what you do I'm gonna destroy the Winter Soldier in like an hour in 30 minutes or however long it is gonna be I don't know how long it's gonna be good luck that's why there you go you gotta talk in like movie bob speed if you're gonna do that well I'm assuming you do breakdowns of media on your channel just to give them a sense of what the fuck's going on here I don't know this is your time to sell yourself oh yeah yeah, I do stuff yeah, that's cool nailed it alright south, pull what you up to yeah, I'm gonna go eat now see ya wow so there's a lot of stuff that's been happening lately a lot of calls I've been in with Evan we've been watching through a show together um and I've been sitting on this for a while I think I'm ready to go ahead and announce it Mahler this is the hot take that I've been teasing on Twitter for months now and people are getting really annoyed by what it is it's like why do you keep on teasing your hot take instead of just dropping it um and the reason is because of everything I went through with the Spire N2 saga, right how EFAP chat reacted to that it was really funny um but I guess I'll go ahead and drop it now um so a long time ago and maybe some of you guys have figured this out already because I've been dropping hints here and there especially in this little debate once upon a time I was recommended by many many people especially in this community to check out this little show called Batman the Animated Series I watched a couple of episodes oh no they weren't very good and then I watched about a dozen episodes and they weren't very good and those episodes included POV which people are like oh yeah it's like a Rashomon it's half ass Rashomon Evan and I rewatched it just to be sure it's bad Evan and I watched through most of the show together Evan had seen the show when he was a kid he grew up on it and I didn't and I um I was going in mostly blind I'd seen some episodes a while ago but I didn't grow up on it like Evan did and I made Evan rewatch it with me and most episodes are not scraping above a 4 out of 10 as it stands episodes and that's including the Sub-Zero movie so it's 19 episodes from the show and the Sub-Zero movie that's a 6 out of 10 or above and guess what? Hard of Ice it ain't one of them and um yeah I am working on a video about that show I'm going to rip it to shreds I am not sorry at all you guys really should not have recommended me to watch the show and the stuff that I've been saying on Twitter about hey should I check out Batman the Animated Series here's the plot twist I had already seen the entire show um there's recordings of me and Evan reacting to it and I even recorded some of you reacting to some clips smaller I don't know what you mean I've never heard of any of this I haven't seen hundreds of clips of funny things you've shown me from that show what are you talking about what you didn't say that far so maybe people will be wondering what are some problems with Batman the Animated Series like um just little patterns to look out for I don't know how much time you guys have for me to talk about those because I feel like I'm going on for quite a while um couple things Batman is really fucking incompetent in the show gets taken out by goons super easily gets snuck up on super easily um he will frequently get knocked out and then tied up and people will sometimes um not take out the utility belt when that's like the first thing that you do when you tie up Batman um but what they always do is they keep his mask on they keep the cow on they do not want to unmask Batman which is strange because if you've got Batman tied up um you think you'd want to know who Batman is right it's kind of a common point of intrigue amongst the people of Gotham um but man so many people in this show they they get Batman they have him tied up they have him dead to rights and they don't give a fuck um there's so many instances of like aim that would make some troopers from the Mandalorian look competent um from various thugs in the show um um I'm trying to think oh and then you've got just amazingly uh lame payoffs to things like you know episodes like Heart of Ice where Mr. Freeze is taken out because Batman has a thermos of chicken soup in a pocket in his cape that he pulls out and he smashes it over Mr. Freeze's helmet and in the that chicken soup makes the glass on his helmet explode and in the four other instances that Batman goes up against Mr. Freeze they never use this trick again it's it's like it is dire just go into the show and really think about it the way that we look at stuff like the Mandalorian I mean I call it the Batman Mandalorian that's what he is well here's the thing Southport it's a cartoon have you thought about that yeah I've thought about that and I've really thought about how this cartoon that's trying to be mature and serious and have this like very serious tone most of the time it also completely deflate shit like there's a fucking scene there's a okay so there's an episode where Batman gets knocked out by penguins um penguins got this umbrella that shoots out a gas that knocks out Batman it's like a nerve gas of sorts it's like okay so penguin better use this in all of the subsequent appearances guess how many of the subsequent appearances he uses that in negative one none none at all and so Batman has to be saved by a couple of dollar store encyclopedia brown children that are investigating they see a condor they see a rare condor in Gotham there they follow the condor on their bicycles because they figured that's something worth investigating the condor takes them to a bird seed factory that's where the penguin is hiding out and that's how they run into Batman and Batman gets knocked out they're able to save Batman that way through insane contrived bullshit with how they like these kids drive the Batmobile they have Batman like they they they take him in bring him to the basement they have something called I've got Batman on my basement and um it culminates in Batman being revived at just the right time to fight penguin and him and penguin have I swear to God a sword fight where Batman is holding a screwdriver and penguins holding a small knife and I'm just like why is Batman engaging with the penguin like this with a fucking screwdriver given everything in his arsenal it's so bad it not all the skills like just him grabbing a screwdriver is fucking insane and people go oh but Southpaw that's that's one of the bad Batman the animated series episodes like yes but that's the problem 90 episodes of the show are bad there are 4 out of 10 or below assuming so you're probably going to do a full breakdown that they can get excited for right yes um yes so don't fret that is his take everyone will disagree with that from what I understand I never watched it as a kid so I got no connection you just showed me funny clips out of context they're going to hate you for that you're a tainted molar away from it don't worry guys it's fine I don't know that I was going to watch it anyway but it's okay I'll watch his video when he breaks it down and then I'll never see that show it'll be like nice it's okay I'm just kidding it's gonna be fine I'm not going to be happy about this but that's okay because here on EFAP we just look at stuff and we go you know what that didn't make sense and that's it that's what we did today now is and I feel like that's probably a really good place to say goodbye especially on that hot take don't you think let them stew over that thank you all so much for watching hope you enjoyed it I haven't lost I hope I see at least one comment saying you know what the debate format maybe it can work maybe it can work you know nine failures at least there's one that can't work I don't even know if it's that bad thank you all for listening thank you Southbourne SK for coming on rags for mediating and free and myself for doing what we did I guess you've got to make sure I was involved it's all happy families we did it anything else you guys want to say before we sign off I mean well does someone else have something to say you know what you know what I think the points have been made and the points down people can and they won about these two movies that's totally fine you know what because the points are out there you listen to them think about them and then you know we go from there yeah man hot take overdose this this episode I don't know if they can handle it we'll find out on Saturday we will they will also it'll be a Saturday it'll make sense thank you all for watching good night everybody see you next time bye bye feel so desperately that you're right yet to fail nonetheless