 Hey everybody today. We're debating whether or not Jesus is a Muslim and we are starting right now with the yes side in particular Shoaib. Thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours Yeah, thank you aha, so Now the topic is Jesus a Muslim, right? When we go to Koran for instance Koran chapter 27 verse 91 Prophet Muhammad himself said Anakuna mean and Muslim in that have been commanded to be of the Muslims now What comes into play is people to understand the notion of what the word Muslim actually You know means because people have romanized it into English when somebody says this guy is a Muslim They just think is a you know a concept of Sunni Shia and that means a person a Muslim That is not the case. It's actually been romanized Which in Arabic means to subject or submit yourself to God to somebody who submits to God is a Muslim And then whoever submits to God is part of what do we call the faith called Islam? That is the act of submission So Quran chapter 27 verse 91 shows us how Muhammad claims to submit to have been commanded to submit to God And he didn't start from him We saw in Quran chapter 2 verse 131 Abraham himself when God asked him to submit and he said I Submit to the Lord of the words now when you go to James chapter 4 verse 7 That's the Christian brothers can actually testify for themselves. It says you should submit yourselves to God and Reject the devil, right? So that and the devil will flee from you now Submitting or subjecting yourself to God stands in the same instance of what a Muslim is you submit your will To the one and only God now when you go to Quran chapter 2 verse 133 Is this or where you witness is when death Appeared to Jacob when he said to his sons, what will you worship after me? They said we will worship your God and the God of your fathers Abraham Ishmael and Isaac the one God for we are Submitters to him right so submitting to God automatically makes one What we call modern day we use the word Muslim But when we say Muslim, it doesn't mean a sectarian Muslim or somebody who follows the hadith concept of Islam That is not what is Muslim denote and again if we go to Quran chapter 3 Verse 64 this is in a simple not shell This is what we invite all the people of the book the messenger was asked to say Oh people of the book let's come to equal time between us and you that we shall not worship except Allah That is one God neither shall we associate anything with him to say he has pertinence his trinity His days is that no no shall we take each other as lots because he is the Lord of the winning universe is sufficient for us So we don't need to take each other as lots But if they turn away then say bear witness that we are submitters which in actual sense in Arabic We will say Muslim moon right so which means Muslims now when we pay attention to how the word had been coined in order to To to sound like Muslim is an English word coming back We have to understand a Muslim is the one who submits to one God who who actually submits his will to God So he does the will of God he follows the commandments of God, right? So this believer or this Muslim who submits to God must also submit to Submit to the West of God that is the books of God and also believe in his messengers believe in his prophets and Whatever follows but to take this criteria these five criteria first of all I'm going to deal with which is believe in one God and also the will of God the Commandments of God and also believe in his messengers and as prophets now when we take for instance Quran chapter 18 verse 110 these messengers when they come they tell you you have to Worship one God then the will of God when we take Quran chapter 5 verse 110 to 111 11 we saw how Jesus submitted his will to God alone and he does the will of God above now the Commandments of God also to Quran chapter 21 verse 27 clearly tells us the messengers do not proceed God in word But they act on his commands so they follow only the commands of God which shows they submit to God Which means they are inferior to God messengers now as a messenger we have Somebody like Jesus also who is a messenger of God Submitting to the will of God. So if you go to Quran chapter 61 verse 6 of the Quran He actually came to the children of Israel as a messenger and prophesied to them about a messenger to come after him Now as a prophet Quran chapter 19 verse 30 He said he is the servant of God and that God has made in my prophet and has given him a book Now when you go the concept of one God for instance if you go to the Bible you go to look chapter 18 Verse 19 where Jesus said unto him why college though me good None is good save one that is God you go to mark 12 chapter chapter 12 verse 29 to 30 And Jesus answered him the first of all commandment is here. Oh Israel the Lord our God is one Lord And so goes up to verse 30 tells you you have to devote yourself entirely to God alone none else Mark chapter 12 verse 32 likewise tells you there's only one God There's none but he Matthew chapter 4 verse 10 Likewise look chapter 4 verse 8 and then John chapter 5 verse 37 where he says and the father who sent me He has testified of me you have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form So these Jesus has the testimony of Jesus is what God has actually given him so that he can give to the people Which way I can actually see that Jesus is not God neither Is he anything people are claiming that he is God so that means which means he submits to a higher authority Over him now the will of God John chapter 5 verse 30 clearly tells us that Jesus said I can't of my own self Do nothing as I hear I judge and my judgment is just because I seek not my own will So Jesus didn't come to do his own will but the will of the father which sent him, right? So John chapter 14 verse 10 he tells us that believers Though not that I am in the father and the father in me the worst I speak on to you I speak not of myself. So Jesus was not speaking his own point of view or opinions But the father that dwell in me he does the works So he goes again John chapter 12 verse 49 and 50 he says I have not spoken of myself But the father which sent me he gave me commandment What I should say and what I should speak so anything Jesus Actually have to speak to the people is based on the commandment of God So we can see the will of God and also the commandment of God and then we can see also Jesus being a messenger according to John chapter 8 Verse 42 and John chapter Matthew chapter 15 verse 24 I was not sent back to the lost ship of Israel then Luke chapter 4 verse 43 Likewise, he said he said unto them. I must preach the kingdom of God to the seat to the other cities also Therefore I am sent right and he preached in the synagogue of Galilee So prophet has a prophet. He is a prophet of Nazareth according to John chapter 9 verse 17 He is a prophet. They said he is a prophet and Matthew chapter 21 verse 11 the multitude said this is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee, then we have Luke chapter 24 verse 19 and he said unto them what things they said unto him concerning Jesus of Nazareth Which was a prophet mighty indeed and where before God and all the people so Luke chapter 4 verse 24 He Jesus said very I say unto you. No prophet is accepted It's in own country just as Jesus was not accepted by his people So the five criterias I gave which Jesus falls through as a prophet and then as a messenger and then somebody who acts on the commandment of God Just as the verses I coded and then lastly then he says Matthew chapter 5 verse 17 to 18 Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophet I'm not come to destroy but to fulfill for very I say unto you till heaven and earth pass One jot or one detail shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled So Jesus was only submitting to the will of God above and that is why we claim He is a Muslim as a rabbinized word but in Arabic a Muslim is a submitter So Jesus was only submitting to the will of God and none Everything he did wasn't from his own will by the will of God. So that is a criteria moment over to you Okay, so to carry on from all my peace and blessings to everybody Carrying on from what my friend said. Yes Muslim the etymology of the word means one who has submitted his or her will to God So they follow and do what they're the will of their Lord the God of Abraham now I know a lot of people Have the understanding in the West that Muslim is Conflated with what Sunniism and Shia is and yes, Jesus was not a Sunni and he was not a Shia Just like how Abraham was not a Sunni or Shia Now the problem is the burden in the West is for us to define what Muslim and who Allah is because these are words That also came up in the debate earlier Due to the problem of Roman Romanizing the two perspective respective words This debate would actually not happen in the Middle East among Arabic speakers Because the Arabic speakers will quickly agree that Jesus. Yes He's a submitter and that he did submit to God now This debate is happening in the West is due to the ignorance and the Romanizing of these words now If you look into job 2221 this is where I believe Elephaz was addressing job the verse says Submit to God and be at peace with him in this way prosperity will come to you Now if you take a look into the standard Arabic Bible as a be the standard Arabic Bible in Arabic It says a slim Lilla What a Salah Mao? Yeah, Tika. Yeah, Tika. Hi. Oh, so and on the in the Quranic terms It would be a like a homo-muffler. Oh, so but what I'm trying to explain is that a this verse is apparent in the Quran And the other thing is the word a slim which is submit which comes from the word Muslim So someone who does a slim or you slim Some of whom sorry in the past did a slim he would be called a Muslim So and then you see the word Lilla, which I think every understands this There's the L which is the definite article because it's Submit to God the elephant's drop. So technically it's a slim the Allah just like in the Quran it says Lilla who'll hummed la Allah hummed to God is the Praise so you can clearly see the word Muslim and the word Allah in the Arabic Bible So these are words that already existed prior to Prophet Muhammad and prior to the Quran now I'm gonna quote the same verse that My my colleague My my friend and colleague quoted which is John 5 30 I can't of my own self doing nothing as I hear I judge and my judgment is judge Just because I seek not my own will but the will of the father which has sent me So so it's very clear that Jesus has submitted his will back to God and he's doing the will of the Lord now I personally do not don't act on my will just like how Shoaib doesn't act on his own will We are called Muslims. There are pleasures in the world that would be nice to indulge in But if we do that then we are removed from the grace the purity and the commandments of God And thus we become deluded This is the same as Jesus when he was tempted by the devil in the gospel when he was fasting But Jesus held like held into the ropes of God and he did not delude from the path now After one submits his will to God for him to become a believer They must uphold a certain degree and a certain standard for us Submitters or an Arabic Muslims to to be defined as a believer and this is defined in the Quran in Chapter 8 verse 2 to 4 that says the believers are those are only those whom when God is mentioned their heart are fearful And when his verses are recited to them they increase in faith and they rely on their Lord The one who establishes the litany or the prayer and one for whom what what we have provided them They disperse those are the true believers for them are degrees at their Lord This statement alone defines Jesus's ministry and the way he conducted himself as an example for the children of Israel On how to be a believer and a submitter to God's will so Essentially a devout Christian can see that the teachings of what Christ taught in their Muslim counterparts Which logically concludes that Jesus himself Conducted and taught was what the Quran also taught in a mannerism of Of him I mean in mannerism and the importance of humbleness the Christians recognizing that Sorry, he was on around that 12-minute mark. We're probably at about 13 and a half. That was that was that was right around 13 Are you good there Muhammad? So yeah, essentially the main point is that you could see a lot of what Christ thought as what a Muslim is in the Quran So it concludes that Jesus was teaching how to be a Muslim as he was a Muslim himself or he's a submit You got it. We're gonna kick it over to David and Avery for their 13-minute opening as well It's about up a split so to be about six and a half each Who want to remind you folks if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up in the future With that, thank you very much gentlemen. The floor is all yours Thank you, James, and I'll probably give Avery a little bit more time than I'm gonna take and thank you Again, Muhammad and Shuaib for having this debate on such an important issue of disagreement between Christians and Muslims. This is actually very Very simple according to Islam a Muslim is someone who submits to Allah but this is supposed to be the Allah of Islam the Allah of Islam Is the Allah that we read about in the Quran? Did Jesus submit to the Allah that we read about in the Quran? There are all kinds of directions. We can go with this. We can point out things like The Quran denies Jesus's sacrificial death and resurrection But Jesus said things like for even the Son of man did not come to be served But to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many so Jesus is laying down his life as a ransom for others That's mark 1045 and there are tons of passages on Jesus saying that he's going to die on the cross and rise from the dead Interestingly, some of them are passages that Shuaib was quoting where if he just keep reading He would see all kinds of things that completely contradicts Islam So Shuaib quotes the Gospels to prove his points even though the points he's quoting Even though the passages he's quoting thoroughly contradict Islam. So for instance, he quoted Luke 19 if he kept reading to verses 31 to 33 he would see Jesus took the 12 aside and told them we are going up to Jerusalem and everything that is Written by the prophets about the Son of man will be fulfilled. He will be delivered over to the Gentiles They will mock him insult him and spit on him They will flog him and kill him on the third day. He will rise again So I I kind of don't know what to do when people keep quoting passages where if you just keep reading it completely completely destroys the point they're making So there are tons of places where Jesus contradicts the Koran and he therefore can't be submitting to the God who revealed the Koran But I'm just going to focus on one core issue that shows Jesus wasn't a Muslim According to the Koran the worst sin anyone can commit is shirk associating a partner with Allah Surah 19 says that the universe is about to rip apart when someone says that God has a son Makes no sense to claim that Jesus was a devout Muslim prophet if he and everyone around him We're committing the worst possible sin over and over again like a beating drum It just doesn't make sense to call Jesus or his followers Muslims Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and in Matthew 3 when Jesus comes out of the water the spirit of God Descends as a dove and a voice out of the heavens proclaims This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased Notice the Father and the Holy Spirit together identify Jesus as the Son of God Jesus repeatedly identifies himself as the Son of God at his trial for instance in Mark 14 Shuei was quoting Mark in Mark 14 the high priest asks Jesus at his trial Are you the Christ the son of the blessed one? Are you the Christ the son of the blessed one? Jesus answers I am and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of Heaven they declared that this is blasphemy and that he He has to be he has to be sentenced to death because of this In Luke 1 the angel Gabriel calls Jesus the Son of God in John 1 John the Baptist who was a prophet according to both Christianity and Islam says about Jesus I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God At the end of John 1 the Apostle Nathaniel says to Jesus rabbi you are the Son of God You are the king of Israel in Matthew 16. Jesus asks his disciples. Who do you say that? I am Peter answers You are the Christ the Son of the living God Jesus says that this was revealed Jesus replies and says that this was revealed to Peter by God So according to Jesus God is the one who reveals to you that Jesus is the Son of the living God In Matthew 14 Jesus walks on water during a storm after stepping into the boat the wind stops and his disciples bow down and worship him Crying out. You are certainly God's son In John 11 Martha calls Jesus the Son of God and his crucifixion some of the Romans called Jesus the Son of God Even demons would call Jesus the Son of God as he was casting them out of people and they were screaming So the father identifies Jesus as the Son of God Jesus identifies himself as the Son of God the Holy Spirit identifies Jesus as the Son of God The angel Gabriel identifies Jesus as the Son of God the Prophet John the Baptist identifies Jesus as the Son of God Jesus Apostles identify him as the Son of God Martha identifies him as the Son of God the Romans identify him as the Son of God demons identify him as the Son of God. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John pick a book over and over again. Jesus is called the Son of God and our Muslim friends go to these very books to show that Jesus was a devout Muslim. Everyone in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who could possibly identify Jesus as the Son of God identifies him as the Son of God. 600 years later, Muhammad, the prophet of Islam comes along and tells his followers that the worst possible sin anyone can commit is claiming to be the Son of God or calling someone the Son of God. So according to Islam, according to the Quran is Jesus a Muslim, someone who submits to the Allah of the Quran. Obviously not, he's committing the worst possible sin over and over and so were everyone around him. But our Muslim friends have given us their perspective. So Avery, what do you think about their case? I think that the case to prove that Jesus was a Muslim is interesting because what we have here is we have the meaning of Muslim that's given to us is that is whoever submits their will to God, whoever submits their selves to God, whoever believes in his books and whoever follows his commands, believes in his command. You submit to these things. You submit to God, you are a Muslim. Well, by that definition, if we're going with that, because I'm gonna show you how ambiguous this is, one of the best Muslims according to this definition that I could ever think of is Paul, the apostle. Paul, being a Pharisee, knew the scriptures, believed in the scriptures, submitted to the scriptures, submitted to God so much with so much zeal that he went after those who he thought were not submitting to the will of God and committing shirk against God by claiming that Jesus is the divine Messiah who died for our sins and rose again on the third day. So I believe that by this definition, Paul is amongst the best of Muslims if we're going just by someone who submits their will to God and submits to his books, his revelation and things of this nature. Not just Paul, but me, I guess I'm a Muslim. I believe in God, he's a triune God, infinite. And there's no one beside him, no one other than him. And he is a magnificent in everything that he is. I submit to him in his revelations, I submit to his books, his commands. I am a Muslim, David, you're a Muslim. The 1,300 people in this chat who are monotheists who submit their will to God, you're Muslims. So that's how ambiguous this is. And I don't think that they would agree with this. So if we're going to be, I mean, honest with what it is to be a Muslim, it's believing and submitting to a particular concept of God that we find described in the Quran. The God that it begins not and nor is he begotten. The God who is not a father to anyone in any sense. The God who has no children, has no partners. You know what I'm saying? The God who is not a Trinity, the God who is absolutely singular in his essence, a singular person. That's the God that you have to submit to in order to be a Muslim specifically. And so now we have this case here. Well, okay, if that's really the definition, then let's see if Jesus of Nazareth, the first century Jew, the Messiah, historically lines up with that concept of God. Did he submit to the God who has no sons, to the God who is absolutely singular in his essence, to the God who has, you know, within himself, no one is with him, no family or anything of this nature. Is that the God that Jesus believed in and submitted to? And ironically, as what was mentioned, our Muslim friends quote, the Bible. They went to the Bible to substantiate this idea that Jesus is a Muslim and it's mind boggling because the verses that they quote, as David said, literally destroy their position. Like, for example, Mark chapter 12 was quoted verse 29 where Jesus says, you know, that there's only one God and things of this nature. But earlier in Mark 12, starting at verse one to about 10, Jesus differentiates himself from the servants who are the prophets. It goes like this. He says, gives the parable of the vineyard, the vineyard owner and the vineyard owner sends his servants who are the prophets to the people that he loaned the land to, which is Jerusalem, which is Israel, the Jews, but they kept killing their, his service. They kept killing the prophets and he kept sending them and sending them. They kept killing them and abusing them and rejecting them. But then it says here, yet he had, he still had one to send. And it says here, a beloved son. So notice that the son is distinct from the servants. Why? He said, my beloved son. Finally, he sent to them saying, they will respect my son. But those tenants said to one another, this is the air. Come, let us kill him. And the inheritance will be ours. And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others. So Jesus referring to himself is the son who is distinct from the servants, the prophets, who is the heir of the father of God, the heir of all things, right? The one who will receive all things that God owns, including the prophets. So Jesus is identifying himself as the owner of the prophets, the one who inherits all things, creation and all. And this is who Jesus is saying he is in Mark 12. This absolute, is this in Islamic teaching. Can you be a Muslim and claim that God is your father, can you be a Muslim and claim that you are the son of Allah, the inheritor of Allah, the one who will receive all things that Allah owns and that you, including the prophets, that you own the prophets. It's a tough dilemma to be in. So we're showing how ambiguous this definition of Muslim that was given to us, if we narrow it down, we know it's specifically about the Islamic God. And when we go into passages, John chapter five was quoted, for example, John five, these guys, they said it. We didn't quote these, they did. They said, Jesus submits his will to the father in John chapter five. Absolutely, it's true. But guess what else he says? He says that the father shows the son all things that he does. So there's nothing that the father does without the son. Does Allah ever work, ever work alone? Does he always do things with the son? Guess what else Jesus says? That whatever the father does, that the son does also. Jesus says that he can do whatever Allah can do. Also, in John five, we haven't even left John five yet. There's so much more to get to. In John five, he says that all may honor the son just as they honor the father. So my question would be, how do you honor Allah? Is it through worship? Is it through your, through a supplication? Jesus says that you have to honor him the same way you honor Allah. Is that Islamic? I don't think so. Well, time, thank you very much. We're gonna jump into the open dialogue. Thanks so much for being with us folks. Don't forget to hit that like to let the YouTube algorithm know what to suggest more of to you. That gentleman on the floor is all yours. Now, Avery, just I wanna put it back a little bit. You said that the term Muslim is ambiguous. Yes, it is very ambiguous, especially in the Quran. God never says, God says multiple times, all believers, all people of the book, all disbelievers, all associators. So he never says, all Muslims because it is an ambiguous verse, ambiguous meaning where it covers many people. You're actually correcting the definition where anyone who is submitting to a monotheistic Lord because there is only one God. So you want to play around with the words like father and Allah as if they're not equal even though you have your definition of what a father is. Let's go with the Lord of the skies and the earth. Rabbu Samawati wal Aram. There's only one entity that created the skies and the earth. It created this entity. He created the human. He understands the human. He told the human, do this and don't do that. That is the Lord that we submit to. Now our perspective and what he can do and what he can't do, this is where we're opening it up for debate. But this Lord that I defined is the Lord of Abraham. And anyone who submits to this Lord of Abraham and despite what associations they have with it or they attach to him or however they're viewing them in a certain perspective that is changing their theology but it doesn't change how many gods there is. There's only one. So yes, you are right. You and David, if you are submitting to the Lord of the skies and the earth created this world you by definition is a Muslim. So you conceded by the way you defined what Muslim is on its ambiguity, you defined what truly what Muslim means, okay? And then you went into a specific when trying to prove. Yeah, one second. I just wanted to ask for a couple of clarifications because I do want to understand your point before you move on to another one. But so you're saying that we in your definition of Muslims as people who submit to God that we would be, Avery and I, would be Muslims just to clarify. I'm assuming you're going to say yes. But Sunnis, Shias, Sufis, these would all be Muslims and that they are submitting to God but you would believe they're misguided in certain ways but they would all be Muslims, right? They're Muslims but they're not believers. They have not entered the faith and the belief. They've submitted that there's a God but they're going to do whatever they want. So there's people that disbelieve there is no God. That's an atheist. That's a person that did not submit this as a criminal and there's people that understand that God exists but they want to purposely devout the way outside of the way of God. Those are devils. But then the submitter is, there's a God, there's a day of judgment, that's where it stands. So regarding us, you would say, would you say that we are Muslims but not believers? You're a Muslim without, you're not believers and you have concepts of Sharia. God never refers to you as mushrikun. God refers to you as people who committing disbelief by the association, but he never called you a mushrik. By me, Christians were never called mushrik. But he's saying, hey, when you're saying God is a one over third, you're committing disbelief. When you're saying that Jesus is the son of God, you're committing disbelief. But he never said you are a mushrik because a mushrik is much bigger than that concept. So yes, everyone in the world has some concepts of shirk in their email. They're associating things with God and in return their life moves away from the clear path a little bit. And that's cause it's not forgiven. So you're gonna eat it either here in the world or the hereafter. Some people are just completely gone. So I think it's interesting, you're a Muslim, I'm a Muslim, we're all Muslims. So it's a Muslim party here. But are you ready? Are you ready now? He said, well, I still wanna examine this. I still wanna like, we gotta dig deep in this, man. So you said like, for those who say that Jesus is the son of God, that they are, we're disbelievers for saying that, but we're still Muslims. So my question is, according to the verses that you quoted, is Jesus, he's a Muslim, but he's a disbeliever? Avery, to answer you very quickly, do you submit that God is controlling this world? No, that doesn't answer my question. That doesn't answer my question. I am gonna answer your question. I'm asking you simply, simply yes or no. Do you accept that God is controlling this world and there's a D of judgment? Yes or no? I'm sorry, sure. So can you answer my question now? So now to answer your question, you have been. Just to, it sounds like Avery has a question for you too. No, no, he said he's about to answer. I understand the question. Yeah, so there's people that messed up in the religion prior to Jesus, Jesus came to fix the religion. After Jesus, people messed up in the religion. Muhammad came to fix the religion. That's not what I asked. And Pastor Muhammad, people, no, I'm telling you. So when you're claiming that Jesus said that he is the begotten Son of God, that is not something that Jesus would say. I didn't, okay. So let's pause here for a second. You, I'm talking about the verses you quoted to prove to us in our Bible that Jesus is a Muslim. So I'm not talking about what you think is corrupted. I'm talking the parts that you quoted as if they're not corrupted. So you're- Then you're talking to Shai but I quoted only two verses. Five 30 and 20 to 21. Exactly. And you said- Five 30. You said out of your mouth, I heard you, it's recorded in your verses, you read that Jesus submits his will to the Father as he hears he judges and he submits his will to the Father. So Jesus in John 5.30, in John chapter five says he's the Son of God and he submits to his Father. I'm gonna ask again. So according to the verses you quoted is Jesus a Muslim but a disbeliever? Five 30. Jesus has said he submitted his will. People saying that he's the begotten Son of God that is something that Jesus did not say. No, no, no, no, let me clarify this Avery because yeah, I think he's missing the point. So he's not saying what you believe or what Islam teaches. Avery is asking since you quoted John chapter five verse 30 and that's where Jesus says that everything that the Father does he does and that you have to honor the Son the same way you honor the Father. He's, Avery is asking is Jesus in this passage even if you believe it's corrupt but is he in this passage a Muslim but not a believer because he's saying that he's the Son and you have to honor him the same way. But Dave, wait, Dave, the John chapter five verse 30 doesn't say what you just said. That's not the verse we used. So what point are you making from that? Wait, wait, wait, wait, didn't Mohammed say he brought up John five verse 30? Yeah, I brought John five verse 30. No, no, no, both of you did. Okay, so both of you did. But it doesn't say anything about. It doesn't say what you are saying. It doesn't say what you David is saying. Yeah, we're talking about the rest of the passage. Let me just give a breakdown of what's actually going on in that passage. David, David, I understand what you're saying but let me answer very quickly. You're not answering. So we do not subscribe that the gospel is 100% truth. So we're not saying that. We're asking about according to the passage. What I mean, David, we're quoting the things that are aligning with the truth and the things that are not aligning with the truth. We are here to help you corrected with the criteria on which is the plan. So that's why we're saying, we're not saying, we know you believe that Jesus said other things. We're saying according to this passage would the person who is saying these things saying that he does whatever the father does someone who says that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection, someone who says that you have to honor him the same way you honor the father, where he says that he is the final judge of all mankind would a person who said these things in this passage be a Muslim but not a believer? Two points. One, one, that I'll bring you back to an earlier debate where we had where Jesus can speak in the first person. And then the other thing is just like how you're saying there's ambiguity with how the son is defined. Yes, you know, define one second. The Jews define the son in a different way than you defy the son. David was a son of God. There's Benel Elohim, the sons of God. There's many sons of God in the Bible. So when you're taking it as a begotten son, that's when you went off course, but it doesn't necessary that Jesus was saying I am the begotten son. I, my father had a certain relationship with my mother and here I come without a father. And that's where it's a problem. Exactly, exactly. Dude, it's very simple, man. We didn't ask you all of that. We don't need the fluff, seriously. Answer the question. Yeah, but by your question, some questions. Excuse me, I'm sorry, like I can't do this. Dude, it's very simple what David asked you and what I asked you. It's super simple. According to the text. Do you take the gospel 100% or just a little bit? That's what you're saying. It's very simple. It's very, very simple. Is this person who's claiming to be the son of the father who can do whatever the father does and is honored the same way the father is honored who raises the dead and judges at the day of judgment? Is that person a Muslim but not a believer? Yes or no? He's not a Muslim. Thank you. Whoa, Jesus. Jesus in, so Jesus in John chapter five is not a Muslim, but you quote John chapter five to show I understand the context. Wait, wait a moment. Don't twist the issues here. Don't twist the things. We're not the one twisting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't you twist it. Wait, no, no, don't interrupt. I won't try not to. Gentlemen, all right, I'm gonna go with Shuai for about one minute, then we'll go back. Go ahead, Shuai. Every, you are playing the Saman things here. Look, Matthew chapter 24 verse 36, it tells you clearly Jesus says nobody knows the day of judgment, right? Now, if you are trying to base twist issues and base it on an issue to ask Muhammad a question by trying to put him in one corner, which with a contradictive question, that is nonsensical. What I'm trying to let you know right now is if you go to John chapter 20 verse 17, Jesus says I ascend to my father, your father and to my God, your God. But if we understand and we quote certain passages where he's mentioned, the father doesn't actually denote that he's the begotten son, but you are trying to put it in a nutshell by questioning Muhammad that, oh, if Jesus claims he's the son and he is this, he is this, does that make him a Muslim or a believer? But that is a nonsensical type of question to ask. Base, look, based on John chapter 5 verse 30, the passage we quoted, if you have to base it on exactly the context we quoted, it says I can't of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge. So it means he's doing the wheel of the father. This is what we quoted as a reference. Beautiful. Take it over to you. Five seconds. Okay, good. Oh, hold on. I just want to keep going back and forth between teams. We'll have you go right after Avery. Avery, 60 seconds. Okay, within the 60 seconds, please. Shoaib, is Allah a father? Yes or no? He's not a father. Thank you. So if someone is claiming that Allah is their father, then they're not a Muslim, correct? You have to understand the perspective on how he's using the word father. It doesn't matter. Is it biological? No, wait, wait, wait, wait. Clarify the point first. Okay, Shoaib. Allah is a very visual father. No, no, please, please. Let me just ask it, let me. Is Allah the father in any sense? No. Figuratively, allegorically, any sense? No, he's not. No, thank you. Okay, Shoaib. I have a question. Shoaib, I have a question. Wait, wait, wait, wait. If the person that is defined in the word is a man. But if it was 60 seconds, I do want to give a chance to Avery to finish. And then we'll go right over to you, Muhammad. All right, thank you. So look, so you just, both of you just said that Allah is not a father in any sense. So it doesn't matter in what sense Jesus claims to be the son, whether it's begotten, whether it's allegorical, in any sense, if you claim to be the son of Allah, you're not a Muslim. I'll end my point there, because I'll let you guys, you know, do your thing. Hey, you guys just cooked yourself, man. Shoaib, no, we didn't, this is how we recorded you sound. Shoaib. We have good chefs. We don't cook ourselves. Shoaib is the person that's mentioned in John in its entirety. Was that Jesus speaking? Yes or no? Is that the person in the whole thing, just like how they're profiting the hadith, is that Muhammad? Absolutely. Is the person that's quoted completely in John, the one that they're quoting, was that Jesus in his entirety? Yes or no? Shoaib, yes or no? Oh, Shoaib, oh. Yeah, Shoaib, is that person Jesus or no? No, he's not. Hey, ooh, we win, wow, we got it. Of course, they know that, they know that. They are trying to please them. That's how stupid you sound, Avery. The person that is completely in the John, the true quote, that is not Jesus completely speaking. And this is what you're doing late earlier. Oh, so the person that's in Sahih Muslim, is that not the prophet then? If I said no, oh, we won't. Exactly. Because you're dumb. The person that is saying that he, the son of a God, or that he came, he is equal with the father, that is nothing from Jesus. And we're here to tell you, that if you have submitted to the Lord of the world, the skies and the earth, you are saying complete blasphemy, to put someone as weak as a human, as an equal to who created you and who can destroy you, who saved Jesus from the cross. You understand that? Jesus couldn't save himself. Yeah, so here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the points we're trying to make. So in response to our discussion of John 530, Shuaib pointed out, he went to John 20, where Jesus says, I am ascending to my father and your father, to my God and your God. So notice, even the verse itself, you guys both agreed would not be Islamic. And yet you're quoting it to defend your point that Jesus was a Muslim. But it's even crazier if you keep reading. No, no, no. No, no, no. Yes, I'll read whatever I want. In verse 22, same passage, same passage, a couple verses later, it says Jesus breathed on them and said, received the Holy Spirit. Oh my goodness, that ties in with the last debate. But then just a few verses after that, a week later, his disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came in and stood among them and said, peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, put your finger here, see my hands, reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting, Shuaib and Muhammad, and believe. Thomas said to him, my Lord and my God. Then Jesus said to him, because you have seen me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Our point is that you keep quoting passages to show that Jesus is a Muslim and if you simply keep reading, there's no way he's a Muslim. So you're saying, ah, but the one verse that we agree with, that's the real Jesus, but the rest of it, which completely contradicts Islam, though that's all just made up. That's not Jesus. That's not Jesus. No, this passage after passage after passage, you quote and literally all you have to do is read before it or after it and then it shows that Jesus can't possibly listen. According to you. How many times in the Bible have you put the prophets in a light that is not true? So Aaron said that he built a cow. Different talk, notice change in the topic. No, no, no, no, I'm not changing the topic. Aaron building a cow, everyone. Yeah. No, no, no. They've led him to be mushrix. And then Solomon, Solomon worshiped women and he also worshiped fake deities. So it's not very hard for these authors, like Paul the apostate, Saul the apostate that he wants to. He's a Muslim. He's a Muslim. Keep in mind. No, no, no, no, because in your own book it says that if you kill an innocent soul like you killed the whole world, how many innocent souls did he kill? Oh, and then all of a sudden he's a messenger. That's when you get eluded. That's in the talk. The Koran gets that from the Talmud. That's the Talmud. That's one of the problems from the last debate. Muhammad didn't know what he was quoting. But guys, guys, you don't read your book, your book of authority. You've taken verses and other books out of your books. We're only quoting what you said. You said it. You said it. Here's the chapter. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You are taking our words out of context. Like, I keep saying you. That's ironic. It's a game of semantic. No, ironic. We're taking what I'm saying. So you are doing the same thing, huh? Okay. So the point is. We're only going to take what you do to Jesus. That's all. Okay, you let me speak. They're giving verses and we're quoting the context. Let's hear from you. Okay, let's give it a full 60 seconds to show up. Aha. So what we are doing is when we quote passages from your book, we are quoting passages and showing you if we have to use logic to understand the concept you have in your book by that logic, this is how A falls in the criteria of being a Muslim, a submitter to God. But you are taking all the chunks you have, which you know some verses in your book are interpolated. They are not from God. Neither are they from Jesus. They are people's opinions. You are trying to add up to make a point. We are not using people's opinions in your book. We are quoting passages where Jesus is making references about who God is or what he is here to do. But then you just quote verses out of context and say, we are making claims from the same book. Then what is the idea of the debate? The idea of the debate is to go inside your book to make sense out of a passage where we can actually have it in the context of our own books to prove to the people. That's what we are doing. So it's not as if we believe in the entirety of your book now. Can I say something here, David? Shuei, notice how my man and Mohammed, this is for you too, it was for both of you guys. Notice how we never quoted a single passage or talked about a single passage that you didn't quote yourself. We're only using the context of the passage that you use. That's it. So if you're trying to say, sorry, if you're trying to say that we're taking your words, out of context, bro. David said I quoted, he said, like you might as well just not say anything. How about this? Don't quote the Bible anymore. Just give up on the Bible. Just admit that according to the Bible, Jesus is not a Muslim and try to use something else to prove it because you can't, according to the Bible in the passage that you guys go to, you've already admitted Allah's not a father. A Muslim can't call Allah a father and be a Muslim. Jesus says that he's the son of God and so therefore he can't be a Muslim. According to the passages, y'all quote. So stop quoting the Bible, try to use something else to prove that he's a Muslim. I think you need to understand something. We're quoting a certain verse and you go, oh, well carry on with the other bullshit. Exactly, exactly. That's the problem. We're not talking about the other nonsense. Now here's the thing, God logic, Mr. Avery. So can you please now tell me that David is the son of God? Because if you go to Psalm 27, if you go to Psalm 27, he goes, I will proclaim the Lord's decree. He said to me, you are my son. Today I have become your father. So is David the son of God? David is a son of God, which proves that he's not a Muslim. So now watch this. Not a trinity. But hold on. He doesn't get it. He doesn't get it at all. But the audience gets it. Let me show you, Mohammed, how silly, how silly your procedure is here. So you only want to stick to, wait, please, you only want to stick to- Oh, relax. Oh my goodness. Relax. We let you talk. Yeah, we let you talk, bro. I just want to- Oh my goodness. He's gonna let him break it down. Yeah, yeah. It's a very simple- It's a guess or no. It's David the son of God. David is a son of God. Yes. Thank you. And we're about to clarify things for you. And they're all contradicting Islam. All of them. All of them. So look, so David is a son of God. No, we're not. David is a son of God, which means David is not a Muslim. That's in the Psalms that your Koran says that is from God, that he wrote himself. Chapter 21, verse 105 of the Koran, Allah says in the Koran that he's the one who wrote the Psalms for David. So Allah is the one writing that David is his son. Stuck for the law. Look, we're going with your- Why not? You are miscoting the Koran, bro. Please, please, I want to get to my point. I want to get to my point. So your whole procedure is, let's forget all the surrounding verses, only stick to the verses that we mentioned, Avery and David. Okay, let's do that. You quoted John 5.30. It simply says this, ladies and gentlemen, I can do nothing on my own as I hear I judge and my judgment is just because I seek not my own will, but the will of him who sent me, period. Mohammed, who's speaking here? This is Jesus. How do you know that? How do you know? It's the submitter. Show me the verse where it says Jesus is speaking. This is not a gospel about Jesus. What? Show me where it's about gospel about Jesus. Is this a gospel about Jesus? Avery is pointing out that this is a passage. This is a passage. You're going to the last verse of a passage. How do you know that that verse is even Jesus because of the passage, but the passage completely contradicts Mohammed and the Koran. David, because you have your whole document, some of it is from Jesus and some of it is bullshit. So we have, yes, yes. If you can't, if you can't, if you can't. It's very simple. If you're saying, no, if you're saying verse 21 through 29 or not from Jesus, how do you know the next one is from Jesus? Because I have a criterion, which is on his desk right there. I compare it to what the Koran says and the Koran supersedes the lies. Now, if you say that David is the son of God, so David is also the first and last. Hey, son of God. Yeah, and then, so Abraham also I can explain that David and that David, I don't need your explanation. Yeah, you, yes, you do. You absolutely do because you have no clue what you're talking about right now and I can clarify it for you. You can walk away more knowledgeable than when you walked into this discussion. I can break it down. Just let me break it down. I'll break it down. If I can't break it down, then, then you can, you can say how you're in it. You are an idiot. So the, well, your, your profits, your profits, a child molesting, murdering, rapist. I didn't talk about, I didn't talk about that. I didn't talk about it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. We're nankled. I apologize. I apologize. No, that's good. That's good. We're good. We're good. No, we're good. We agreed. We agreed James. We've settled the issue. Okay. So here's the thing. So if you're going to define what a son is by what Jesus said what a son is and then the word son is used by David, then we have to go by the same understanding. You can't come here and give me mental gymnastics how it's different. Okay. And can you please take the back, the words back you said about my profit because I didn't saw any of your profits. No, no, no. I ain't none of that. So it was not about you, man. No, let him take the West back first. No, no. I took my words back. I apologize for David for calling him an idiot. That was out of mind. I'm sorry. David, can you please take your words back? I'm not asking you to apologize. Just take the words back that you said about me. Yeah, yeah. So I was only reacting to name calling. So if we're agreeing we're not doing that, yes, I take it back. All right. So please, I want to touch on this because you completely ran away from the point. So you said to forget everything in the passages, you literally called it all that other nonsense. So we're only going to stick to the passages you quote. You said that you use your Quran as a criterion. So where in your Quran does it say that John 5.30 is Jesus speaking? Based on your question, doesn't mean we should give you direct answer based on the way you are questioning. You say where in the Quran does it say John 5.30? That is not Jessica. Oh, okay. So look, you know what, Shewaib? I agree with that. Do you want to know why it's nonsensical? Because the claim was nonsensical. When asked, who is speaking here? And he says, well, we believe Jesus is speaking here because the Quran is the criterion. Okay, show me where the Quran tells you that this is Jesus speaking. You can't do it because it's nonsensical. Okay, every, every, every help us out. Let me land. Every help us out. Who is speaking there? Let me land, please. Let me land. So I'm going only with Mohammed's criteria of hermeneutics, of exegesis. I'm going with Mohammed. So he said, get rid of all the other verses, only focus on the passages that we quoted. So he quoted only John 5.30, which he said. So tell me again, who is the one speaking who says, I do nothing of my own as I hear I judge, who is speaking? God logic, I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying is that when I am taking a document and I'm reading the document in its entirety, whether it's theology or outside of theology, even if it's the American constitution, I go brought it back to my criteria, which is the Quran. So that means if the verses that are applying with the Quran, I will substitute that and I will accept from it. And the things that do not align with the Quran, I will overlook them. So the verse already clarifies or the passage gives us some context that Jesus is speaking and what it's about. The things that are pertaining to what a Muslim is, the definition of a Muslim, I use that to show you that Jesus himself described what a Muslim is. And then you went to talk about how he committed shirk and so therefore he cannot be a Muslim. But that's not the point that I'm addressing because I don't believe that he said that. I know, so I'm gonna say this and then I'm gonna let David take the next point because this is important. Yeah, I basically, yeah, I wanna let you finish and then he can respond. But I wanted to actually explain because this is a common point. Other people in the Bible are called sons of God. So how do we reconcile that with our claim that Jesus, I just wanna clarify what we view for Muhammad and Shia. If they wanna reject it, they can reject it. That clearly shows how contradicts it. I'm about to, guys, guys, go ahead. Yeah, thank you. So this is important, what we just noticed is that now all of a sudden, ladies and gentlemen, we're allowed to use the context to find out who the person that's speaking. So we see from the context that Jesus is speaking. Thanks a lot. So now, according to Muhammad, we can use the context but then use the Quran, whatever disagrees with the Quran, falsehood, what agrees with it, that's in, that's good. But according to the context, who in the world is Jesus saying that he submits his will to? The father, who is he saying that he hears from? The father, according to the context. So even John 5.30 proves that Jesus was not a Muslim based on the context. So you shouldn't quote it since the Quran is the criterion, John 5.30 should be out. That's my only point. You just help me with that. Yeah, but necessarily using the word father in John 5.30 as you keep saying, we have, I even go to chapter, John 2017 to show you where he says my father, your father and my God, your God. Keep reading. What? Keep reading. I already pointed out this is this, the same passage identifies Jesus as Lord and God. No, it doesn't. I think he does. No, no, it doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't. It does. Because the Jesus you are claiming does even know the day of judgment. How can he be God? You're quoting, you're quoting John 20. In that passage, Jesus is called my Lord and my God. Jesus know the day of judgment. No, you're going to a different passage. We're happy to deal with passages, but notice every time, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, yeah. I'm asking you. You're changing your, no, I'm not because you're changing the subject. If you want to, if you want to deal with it, no, if you want to deal with this topic and then go on, that's fine. Because you interrupted. No, you keep quoting a verse when we just keep reading and then you say, don't keep reading. You just said Jesus is God. That's the definition of ripping things out of context. No, I said the path. No, I said the passage you quoted calls Jesus my Lord and my God. The you brought that passage up. It does. It doesn't. You want me to read again? You want me to read again? But the one, the one, the one, the one, the one. All right, let's break it into, I just want to break it into, I just want to break it into, break it into maybe 60 minute intervals or not 60 minutes. Okay, I'll take the first one. I'll take the first one, James. No, let me finish first. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I just wanted to, oh yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, you make a point. Aha. So I was going. He's going to make a point and then I want to address the previous one. Jesus said unto her, touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my father. So if we have to go with the context of this verse, check clearly the words he used, but go to my breathing and see unto them, I ascend unto my father and your father and to my God and your God. Now, if you base on this logic of this verse, it clearly shows that Jesus is not claiming to be the begotten son of God, which means they can also be the same God can be their father and their father. So it's just a figment of speech. It doesn't necessarily mean he is the son of God as you guys are claiming, but bear in mind, your book, the gospels you are using is the gospels according to St. Luke, St. Matthew, St. John. These are people's opinion mixed up with the words of Jesus. And you keep quoting them. All right, let me go and answer that. So if you kept reading in the same passage, if you keep reading in the same passage, that's where you have just verse 28, just a few verses after what you quoted, my, Thomas said to him, my Lord and my God, Jesus told them, because you have seen me, you have believed. He counts this as belief, calling him my Lord and my God. But I did want to address this, and it might be a few more seconds, but you guys can respond. There is this massive misunderstanding about son of God. In the Bible, God is father and people can be sons of God in different senses. I'll go ahead and clarify them for you so you'll understand. Human beings in general are called children of God or offspring of God. In a similar sense to what you guys were talking about earlier in the previous debate, where we all come from God. So human beings in general can be called children of God, that's Acts chapter 17. So in that sense, we can all be, you guys are sons of God. Second, spirit beings are called sons of God. This is in Job one, angels are called sons of God. Third, the nation of Israel is called God's son because God produces the nation. So he's the father of the nation. Fourth, the reigning Davidic king, so King David and those working after him, his descendants, they were called sons of God because they were put on the throne by God and they were to rule under God's authority as God's representative. Shoaib, you quoted Matthew five earlier and there you have that we can be called sons of God. Here it's people who sort of reflect God's nature will be called sons of God, it's a different sense. The idea is that we have a kind of family resemblance to God when we're serving God. So you have different senses in which God is a father and you have different senses in which we are the sons of God. What we're pointing out is there is a son who is the son of God in a very special sense. Similar to what Avery was pointing out earlier with the parable of the vineyard where prophets come along but then finally the son comes and he's the one who inherits everything and has authority over everything. And then we're pointing out that in John chapter five which you quoted, if you read, Jesus isn't saying, hey, I'm the son of God and just in the sense that other people are the sons of God. He's saying that he's the son that you have, you can't honor the father unless you honor, you can't honor the father unless you honor the son by treating him the same way you treat the father. This is where Jesus claims that he is going to raise the dead at the resurrection. This is where he claims that he's the final judge. So he's claiming to be in a special sense. So you can't say, well, Jesus says he's the son of God, there's other sons of God, therefore it's all the same sense. It's not, the Bible's clear on this. This is not difficult. Muhammad. So yeah, when you're talking about like the definition of what a son of God is in the Bible, you could see that it's inconsistent. So there are different in your ways of interpretation what a son of God is. Now, look, if you want to refer to people as the children of God in that sense where there is no direct beginning, that's on your curriculum. This is what God has revealed to you. God has told us that it's better to not save these kind of things because it can lead to these inconsistencies that you're finding in your book point where people are saying, well, no, he's actually the son of God where that's the mother of God. So this is where these issues arise from people not understanding what maybe even, even let's hypothetically because I don't know, neither do you. Hypothetically, let's say that Jesus did refer to his Lord as the father. Maybe that was for him in the sense that he understood it but he's not calling him his begotten death. I don't believe that he said that but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for saying that but you're causing, you're causing transgression when you want to make God as if he came into a human form. That's the only thing that the Quran is telling you. We're not, and when you're quoting Bible verses, we're quoting the verses that we understand that would attract you to what we're telling you as if the truth from God. We're not debating you to break your, beat your dance. We're debating you so that we could free God and his messengers of the lies that are being said, not by you, by the people who became before you which you keep constantly repeating. So you guys can laugh as much as you want but on the day of judgment, God is gonna say 530. Didn't Jesus say that he's a submitter? Yes, okay, in the story, you can't be like, oh, well keep reading God, keep reading God. No, he's a submitter. He submitted his will to God. That's what your verses say but you're debating which God did he submit to? That's not the point of the debate because there's only one God. Your God and my God is one God. So this is what we got here. He just said that it doesn't matter what God you're talking about or who you submit to, that is the point of the debate because being a Muslim, well, I think that you and Shoaib kind of differ on here because you say that you can have a different theology. You could be a Muslim but not a believer. You can have different theology. I don't know if Shoaib has that same thought which is why he was like what I was asking you based on that is nonsensical because it was a nonsensical statement. But here's the point. When you look in the Bible and you see that God is a father in many different senses, this proves that it's not talking about our law which you guys agreed is not a father in any sense. So please do not lose that point. So you just proved to us that the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God that Jesus says is his own father, the God that revealed himself to David and Moses and all of them claims to be a father in some sense. And therefore none of these prophets are talking about the same God that you're talking about. So according to your definition of Muslim, they're Muslims but not believers. Jesus is a Muslim but not a believer. But Shoaib said, no, this Jesus in John five is not a Muslim. So I think that you guys handed this over to us Silver platter, man. Not really, as you're so like you can't see that the same God is feeding you. Every your confusing narrative is based on the Jesus you presented to ask a question I'm telling you, so not a Muslim. But if you are saying, I said the 530, John chapter 530 is not a Muslim. I used that to present my argument in the first place. I'm not saying that it's not a Muslim. That's a contradictory statement here you're using. That's not what I said. It is based on the question you were asking, Muhammad. That is what I said. Not the verse I quoted. The verse I quoted was to actually stipulate, use that to stipulate my argument, to just show you that this is the criteria we are using to just show you why he's a Muslim, submitter to God. That's why. Let me say very simply, anybody that says he's a son of God or he's a God, he is not a submitter and he's a heretic. Right? So Jesus, let me finish the fuck. In the passages you quote. Okay. Jesus is not a submitter and he's a heretic. David, we just want to go ahead and go ahead and go ahead. Debate over. Debate over. You're making a statement. It's over. Go ahead, go ahead, Muhammad. It's over. But no, it isn't over because the person that you are calling Jesus isn't the Jesus that I'm talking about. You gave this to Jesus. Do you understand me? I didn't give you this Jesus. I'm giving you just two seconds. Let me finish the point before you complete it. I'll let you finish, but I'm about to expose you again. Go ahead. So you're not exposing anything except you're like you're flying your mentality. The thing that is very clear that anyone who claims that he is the son of God, he is no longer submitted to the God of Abraham. So it's impossible for a prophet of God to say that he is the begotten son of God. So the lies that you're attributing to Jesus is not from Jesus. You call Jesus the son of God. Jesus did not call himself a son of God and thus he stayed a Muslim. You're the one who's committing a disbelief. And if you're saying that someone who's saying that God has a son is no longer a submitter to God, then you guys just took yourself out of the fold of the religion and the creed of Abraham. All right, thank you so much. So when you're celebrating on the day of judgment, you're not gonna celebrate very long. Okay, thank you. I'm actually gonna be celebrating for eternity actually. But listen, there's about almost 1200 people watching now. When you guys get a chance, clip the part earlier in the beginning in their opening statements, when they were reading out these verses and Muhammad himself said, based on John 5.30, see, Jesus submitted his will to the father. He's a Muslim. You out of your own mouth said that he submits his will to the father. So guess what, according to you, Muhammad, Jesus is not a submitter. The Jesus you presented to us is not a submitter. He's a heretic and he's not a Muslim. The debate is over. I don't know what even we're doing. I'm using communication language. I'm using a language you would understand. I don't think he is the father, nor do I subscribe to the father. I used your book against you. But yes, the debate is over because you already admitted that Jesus submitted his will to the father. The father is Allah. End of story. Thank you very much. Every Christian Arab will tell you the same thing. The father is Allah. Jesus submitted his will to Allah because they speak Arabic. Allah's not different. They even call Christian. They even call Jesus Allah. Just this is where you're every, every, every. I'm listening to you. According to you, is Jesus the first and last son of God? He's the firstborn son of God in the sense that he is the, he has preemnance over all creation. And he calls himself the first and the last in Revelation one. Then how come Exodus chapter four verse 22 claimed that Israel is my first son? We just explained, I just, I literally just explained it. It uses different senses. If I say so and so is the father of mother. So it is the concept of explanation. No, no, let me, let me explain. If I say I am, if I say I am the father of five sons, that's one thing. If I say so and so is the father of modern medicine, that's a different. If I say these are the founding fathers of the country, I'm using father in a different sense. You guys are somehow saying that there's no way to use father and son in a different sense. That is insane. How could the Bible uses it in different ways? And you're saying, no, you can't do that. Of course you can. It's not my opinion. It's all over the Bible. It's all over the Bible. Where did Jesus tell you this? Just really quick too on top of this. So it doesn't say first son. It says firstborn. And the term firstborn, as David has just explained and as I explained and as we both. Can we go to the verse? If we use together, we're speaking at the same time. Go to the verse. That's the nation. The nation he wrote for. Go to the verse. Oh my goodness. Shraib, respectfully. Avery, you're going to a different topic. No, I said, go to the verse. They brought it up. You guys brought it up. Where does the Bible, David? I'm off topic. Just okay. You're off topic. Over and over again. They bring up a topic. We respond and we're off topic. We're off topic. Once in a while, I gotta quick jump it. Yeah, good. We might actually, this is, it's an opportunity to go to Q&A, but I don't know that you guys still have some threads you might want to draw together or different threads. Yeah, we could, we could, I don't know. We could go to Q&A and then have conclusions in the end, but I mean, I'm just one guy. So everyone gets a vote here. Everybody else, are there any like thoughts that you still feel like, hey, I want to flesh this out a bit? Yeah, we've done SS. We've done SS of the time. So let's just go speak up, skip up. Yeah, I was interested to find out where the Bible is defining the different sons for us to understand. Or is it David's understanding? David's understanding. Or is it the church bothers? Or is it the Jews? No, no, no, it explains it. What is understanding? When did it? Or is it the people that I understand? Okay, I never mind, I want to answer. This one coming in from, we're gonna jump in it. I want to say thanks for your questions. This one coming in from stupid beta energy says, how do historical and archeological sources about Jesus from his era align with the Islamic view of them as a Muslim? So she's asking for historical and archeological sources that suggest that Jesus is a Muslim. That doesn't go with historical reference. Submission is about between you and God. So it's not like an historic thing that people can just use history, historical things to just tell you, this is what shows that he's a Muslim. It's about what the scriptures say concerning the faith. That is what you denote, what a prophet or a messenger of God represents. It's based on that we are denoting that this entity is a Muslim, but it's not based on other historical evidences, no. Yeah, I would say that by the time Jesus rises from the dead, there are two categories of people. There are people who are rejecting him. They're doomed according to Islam because they're rejecting a prophet. And there were people who were bowing down and worshiping him as Lord, they're doomed. So the takeaway message for his followers as we read in the scriptures is that he's the divine son of God who died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead. If that wasn't what he preached, then he is the worst communicator in all of history and he was a miserable failure according to Islam. You got this one coming in from Joshua Wooden says, how many prophecies in the Quran? How many prophecies in the Bible? Torah and gospel. The Quran affirms the Torah and the gospel? Yes, they were told to believe that they are from God, but as Shraib as I was believing in something doesn't necessarily have to follow it. There are prophecies that are in the Bible that we've seen come to life. There's prophecies in the Quran that we've seen come to life. You got this one. And also the understanding of what the actual Torah and the gospel are is not according to the saints that we see, of course, most of these things are interpolated, not the entirely what is referenced in the Quran to be the authentic source coming from God. According to Quran chapter three, verse three to verse four, the Torah and the gospel referenced there, and yet a law says no one can change his words. This one from Anwar Stevenson. Thanks so much. I don't know if this is meant to, this is just came in. They said, didn't Jesus call a Canaanite lady a dog? Is this in something earlier in reference to like this? No, it's got nothing to do with anything we're talking about. Okay. And we also like me as a person, believe in Jesus, I should denounce those words. I don't think he called anybody a dog. This one from Michael Darwin says, Christian means Christ follower. Muhammad believed Jesus was a prophet. So in a sense, Muhammad was a Christian too. Isn't this the same argument? Never, lot at all. Of course it is. Don't you have to? I could even, I could even. Don't you have to say that for you to be a Christian, you must believe that Jesus died on the cross. So for him not believing that Jesus died on the cross, is no longer a Christian. As you guys do, things are not as good as it is. Yeah, but you guys are laughing, you're making our exact point, right? So you take Christian, you take Christian, if you just mean follower of Jesus, you guys admit that you guys are the ones who said that Jesus is, that Jesus played a role in sending Muhammad. So you could say that he's a Christian. Notice as soon as that was brought up, you start saying, no, there are all these other requirements for being a Christian. That's what we're saying about a Muslim. He can't just say it was the etymology and leave out all the requirements for actually being a Muslim. Here's the thing. So Muhammad is not a Christian and Jesus himself was not a Christian. Muhammad was a Christian. The sources were corrupted. I'll just go to all the verses in the Quran that fit with it, that fit with Christianity. That's what we're gonna do that. And I'll say all the rest were corrupted. Dave, Dave, do that now, can you do that? Oh, sure. Sure, the Quran says that Jesus is the word of Allah. But we know what that means according to John 1.1, which you guys keep quoting the book of John, that means that he is God. So Jesus is God according to the Quran. And Balgay, Muhammad was a devout Christian and the Quran is corrupted by later Muslims. So this is what we have, David. We have Muhammad who was a Christian but not a believer. Yeah, he's a Christian but not a believer. He's a Christian but not a believer. All right, let's go. And he followed Jesus that is also not a Christian but he was a Christian. He followed Jesus who sent him according to you. Guys, does Jesus know the day of judgment? Well, I mean, according to the Quran, which we are according to the Quran, he's God. According to your book. So prove it. Then prove it, Dave. Dave, you said he knows. I just said it. It's according to the Quran, he's God. No, give me. According to the Bible. Give me a verse. He's the word of Allah. Give me a verse where he knows the day of judgment. He's the word of Allah. John 16, verse 30. He just conceded. He just conceded that his Bible is incorrect. He just quoted the Quran and he said that Jesus would know the hour. But his Bible says that he knows all things. No, we're showing off. He doesn't know when the hour. Yeah, we're showing off. Hold on. Because Muhammad is a Christian. Avery is trying to, it's got that Mike issue. Go ahead, Avery. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, you know, according to their theology, according to the Quran, Jesus is the divine word of God. So he knows all things. According to John, chapter 16, verses 31 and down, Jesus says that he knows all things. So of course he knows the hour. So let's move on to the next question. You said according to the Quran, what is this? Is the divine word of God? We just really, we've got so many questions. I wanna rush to Zayn. They just believed. Appreciate it, Zayn says Muhammad just admitted the term Muslim is ambiguous in the Quran. Oops. Yep. No, it's not oops. It's very clear that in the Quran, a Muslim can be from the people of the book. It can be from other monotheistic religions and it can be from the followers of Muhammad. It was, let me chime in. It was based on Avery's claim. Muhammad admitted Avery's claim, not claiming that the Quran is ambiguous. It's what Avery said. That's why Muhammad approved that and said yes. According to you, it's ambiguous. That's the point. But here's what we have guys. Here's what we have guys. Our opponents admitted that the Quran is the word of God. So they have now become Muslim. No, no, only the parts, only the, no, only the parts we agree with that were stolen from Christian sources because Muhammad was a devout Christian. So you agree the Quran is from the God. So you agree those parts from God. The parts that Muhammad copied, the parts that Muhammad copied from Jews and Christians. But late, yeah. But no, no, no, that's the real word of God. And then his followers corrupted it. Have you agree, Chance? Avery, I think you had something to say. No, yeah, that was a flat out lie. The saying that he did not say that, yes, the term Muslim in the Quran is ambiguous. No, he said it in the Quran. He didn't say based off what I said, he said based off the Quran, I was right that the term Muslim is ambiguous. So please do not misrepresent me or your partner. This is coming up now. There is a replay. There is a replay. We'll watch. Al-Ma'an Ma'an says, Jesus was a Muslim? Means he would have condoned your prophet Muhammad's actions. Muhammad who, let's see. This is a per se about Jesus. This, I just want to keep it more on test. Trinity Matrix, thank you for your super stickers. Appreciate your support. Nobody's been more excited about this debate than Trinity Matrix. Also, DJ Roll, if I'm saying it right, says if you pick and choose what to believe about Jesus, how do you know anything about him? What about his language, where he preached or where he was born? You know, normally people are just interested in the things which are not part of what we call guidance. Like people are so interested in, for instance, the Greek Bible. The Bible, they have the New Testament is mainly based on Greek, right? Now, of course, Jesus himself wasn't a Greek. But the point is, people will now try to base emphasis, so much emphasis, trying to make points which is irrelevant. The idea is, what actually does Jesus have to offer? That is what people should pay attention to. Not necessarily what he did, what he ate, what he did is irrelevant. Do you got it? This one coming in from, do appreciate it. Hello, outsider says, of course, Yahweh is the biological father. Virgin birth, the quote unquote seed of the woman wasn't literally Mary's seed. David, I don't think you agree that Jesus is, I mean, the God is the biological. No, I don't, yeah. We would agree on that, whatever we're talking about with Son of God, it is not in a biological sense. So I think we'd be on the same page there. Some of your far saints says, David, all you've done quoting other verses is to refute John 5.30 is proof in all caps that your book is full of contradictions, proof that it was nullified. Thank you. No, so yeah, this is actually a perfect opportunity to break it down. So a Muslim will go to verse 30 by myself, I can do nothing and say, ha ha, that lines up with Islam. They won't back up to see what Jesus is actually responding to. You can go back to verse 17, where the entire conversation, the entire point Jesus is making is there's a debate among the rabbis whether God works on the Sabbath, because Allah, I mean, Allah, Yahweh, God, whatever you wanna say, upholds and sustains the universe. So is that work? And so the rabbis said, yes, God, Yahweh, Allah, whatever you wanna say actually works on the Sabbath. So the rule applies to human beings. Then Jesus in verse 17 says, the father's working and I work too. And they flip out and say, he's claiming to be another God. He's claiming to be another God. He's claiming to be an additional God. What are they saying? They're accusing Jesus of polytheism. Jesus goes through this entire passage is him saying, I'm distinct with the father, but as if I'm a separate God, I'm not. I can't do anything by myself. Everything I do, I am one with the father. So he breaks down that he's the final judge. He breaks down that the father shows him all things that he does and that he does the same things likewise. He breaks down that he's the final judge over all humanity. He says that you can't honor the father without under honoring the son in the exact same way. The entire point of the passage is that he is divine but not a separate deity. And so when he says, I can do nothing of myself, if you read the entire passage, the entire point is that he's not separate. He's one with the father, but shares his nature and attributes. The Muslim goes to just the last little part, ignores everything that comes before it and says, see, this is Islam. And it flies in the face of Islam. Yes, he doesn't know the day of judgment. No. Changing this topic. Here's the thing, he's not even changing the topics. You, what you said at the start is actually something that is what we're taught about. When Jesus said that the father works on a Saturday, he's telling the Jews that he did not rest on the Sabbath, that God does not need rest. He did not sit and rest on the day, he got tired. So if God doesn't rest and he keeps working throughout the whole week, me as a believer, I'm gonna follow the Lord, the example of my Lord and work on a Saturday. So this is why the Sabbath is not endured on you or on Muslims. It's the people that differed about Abraham and said that God rested on a Sunday. So it's not necessarily that he is attaching himself to God but rather taking God as an example. I seen God bring the water down and break the trees up. I took a bucket and put water on a seed and the tree came up. So I learned from my God. You want me to respond to that James or? Yes. This is a whole different topic now. You want me to respond to that James? If you want really quick. Yeah, yeah. So when it talks about God resting from the day, that means he does the work of creating the universe. He does the work of creating the universe and stops. But so he rested from his work of creating the universe. Then you have the work of upholding and sustaining the universe. He gives to man the Sabbath and Jesus says, I'm not under that because since the father is working, I work too. He's putting himself in the same category with God and they flip out understandably. What are you talking about? You're saying, hey, we all have to follow the Sabbath. You don't because you're like the father. They lost their minds. If this was Jesus claiming to be a devout Muslim, he is the absolute worst communicator in history with the possible exceptions of Allah and Muhammad who somehow never mean what they say. So because you don't uphold the Sabbath, you are attached to the Sabbath. We just got so many. Joshua Wooden says, Arabic is the sister language derived from Hebrew and Aramaic. Came 600 years before Arabic was even made. This one from, one way apologetic says question for Muslims. Philippians 2 verse nine through 11 state, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess to Jesus. Will you bow and confess to Jesus the Muslim? In which sense? Like, because there's no clarity. The question, in which sense? Bow, bow and profess to Jesus, in which sense? That means what? You've already said that there can't be different senses of different words. So I mean of the same. When did we say that? When I pointed out the different uses of the word father and son in the Bible and you said, nope, it can only mean one thing. No, no, no. We didn't say it means one thing. We just said that is according to your opinion. You are trying to explain. That's what we said. We did never say it only means one thing, no. This one from, do appreciate it. Save souls says, if Jesus is Muslim, wouldn't that make the Quran verse that says, on this day I perfected your religion a contradiction? No, it's all based on the context because in the Quran context, we're stating to 14, if you read in the Quran, it tells you all the prophets were submitters to God. They were practicing the same faith, the same Dean. So it is not as if when Muhammad was told, this day I've perfected the religion, it is based on Muhammad and his people at the time because he received Islam in the gradual process. It wasn't as if he had it in complete form directly where he can just practice Islam. It was based on inspiration and revelation. So it was based on context and the timeline of his people he stole that. It doesn't mean Islam wasn't complete and even in the time of Abraham or Moses or Jesus. Now, it was interesting that when a verses brought up, you went to the context, which apparently is the method with the Quran, but we can't do it with the Bible. Yeah, that's the issue. The Quran came to correct the Bible. So we don't doubt what the Quran is saying, so we're doubting some of the stuff what the Bible is saying. Now the single version Quran says that. And we don't get confused by the verses of the Quran like you do with the Bible. You don't? 99.9% of Muslims disagree with your interpretation of the Quran. You don't get confused? I don't represent them. Okay, so all eight of you who agree, you're united in your interpretation. The whole starting five that agree, you know. No problem about that. We are not here to represent the majority. Right, you are literally representing what the scholars wrote about what Jesus said. We are going exactly with what Muhammad said and then you're gonna make fun of it. You're gonna make fun of it. I hate to do it. Lightel says, Muslim guests, in John 2017, why did Jesus tell Mary, quote, don't cling to me for I have not yet ascended to the Father? This is a little advance, but reads Luke 24.39. Who said this? Who's this directed towards? To the Muslim guest, to. Okay. And I'm looking at 24.39. So 24.39. Yeah, that's talking about the ascension. You got it. Well, what was the question again? Okay, yeah, I think I understood it. I'm not positive, James. So you can correct me if I'm wrong. They're asking about when Jesus said he was going to ascend to the Father and then you compare it. And it's actually him ascending in Luke 24. Ah, yeah, yeah, we were drawing. It was just drawing a point from the statement by saying he said, my father, your father, my God, your God. So it was based on the statement being used there is what we use for the argument. It wasn't like I'm saying, I believe in that statement that this is what he actually said. It is based on the argument for the sake of argument. I use as a reference point. That's all. You guys agree that Jesus said his father is your father, right? Like he equated them to everybody. Yes, God is all of our fathers. You too, even if you don't know it. Just Jesus is the Son in a very different sense. Which means he's not a Muslim. Correct. And neither are we, since he's a father too. So you guys believe Jesus is a man, right? Yeah, that's part of the doctrine of the incarnation. Yes, and prophesied in the Old Testament. So he was circumcised, okay, good. This one coming in from Danny Davis says, question Jesus taught his followers to pray beginning with quote, our father. Was he a Muslim at that moment? Also, did Shuaib carry a coat? I don't understand what that means. I didn't hear the last thing, did he carry what? Carry a coat? Carry a coat? I don't know what that means, but yeah, you can answer it. There's the first part mentions. Is it Shuaib or I carry what? A coat. A coat? Like a jacket. A jacket? Did he carry a coat? I don't know what that means. I don't understand what that means. I don't know if it was like, I'm thinking it was like... Yeah, he could just answer the first part. We don't understand the second part. I don't know what that means, and I'm a shake. I don't know what that means. Yeah. Anyways, can you kindly repeat the first part of the question? See, Jesus taught his followers to pray beginning with quote, our father. Was he a Muslim at that moment? Okay, so the person is basing that question based on the Bible, on that statement, saying our father. Then we have to now ask David to explain to us what is meant by the father. Is it biological? Is it non-literal? Then we can answer the question. So David, help out. But you guys agree that Allah is not the father in any sense, right? Based on the Quran. So the point is no matter what Jesus is talking about, it doesn't line up with Islam. Listen, the questioner doesn't say, I should give any reference from the Quran now to answer from the Quran. It is an open-ended question. So it means you have to help out first before we can answer if it's yes or no. So help me out. Is it a literal father, biological or whatever, non-literal? What type of father is it? Again, all kinds of different senses. If you mean, if you're taking biological as the standard, then no, it would not be literal in that sense. But in that verse, Jesus is asked, how should we pray? And he says, here's how you should pray. You should pray our father in heaven. So no, that would not be a biological father. So in that understanding, if that father is not biological and it's not a blasphemous concept of father, then I agree, there's no problem with that. No, any concept, any statement of Allah being the father is blasphemous. According to you guys earlier, according to the Quran, you cannot come to Allah except as- No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Please let me finish, because I've been quiet. According to the Quran, you cannot come to Allah except as a slave. You can't come to him as a father in any sense. You guys agreed to this earlier. So please stop asking in what sense is he the son? No, no, wait, wait. You already negated any sense. So it's over. No, we negated, what do you mean any sense? We just said Quran doesn't give us a claim. That's what we told you. The Quran doesn't give us a chance to say father. That's what we said. But we didn't say the Quran negates something. Does it negates what? It does, it literally negates. It says- No, he didn't call himself children of God. Okay, look, it says they say that Allah has a son. Far be it from him. It doesn't be fit as majesty. The earth and the universe quake and they, you know, they shudder at such an utterance. You none can come to Allah in the heavens or the earth can't come to the most beneficent except as a slave. It's a negation. It's a full negation. Every, according to you, does God has a begotten son? Yes. Oh, good enough. That's what- So what's the difference between- What's the difference between- What's the difference between a begotten son and a biological son? So the begotten son of Jesus, he's the begotten son in the sense that he is the unique son of God, monogamous is the word. So he's the unique son of God in that he shares the same essence as the father. That's what begotten or monogamous means when it comes to Jesus. But that is contradiction. When it comes to biological, when it comes to biological and humans, amongst humans, it means that I had, you know, I done my thing with my wife and we bore a son. Yeah. That's my biological child. But that's- Hold on, hold on. You're defining words. You define begotten. Exactly. Shame on you for defining words. No, no, no. But that's what I'm saying. You define the word. That's what you do, man. That's how you communicate. Every, you just said Jesus is the man. You just literally said what begotten means. Shuei, do you really not know- Definition that doesn't attach to the word. That's the point. So what's the difference between begotten and biological when they're literally like synonyms, they work with each other? Father and son are not biological. Open up the dictionary and tell me what begotten means. Or is English not part of Christianity? We're using biblical- You're using your own words. Semantic, semantic, semantic. Yeah. Semantic. Yeah, Mohammed, the Bible uses the term for begotten, although some point out that it can be translated as unique. What we're pointing out is that no one interpreted that as biological. So he can't mean you're saying, oh, this can only mean biological. We're saying no one thought it meant biological. See, look, look, no, no, no, you're looking at this and saying, hey, you know, a father begets a son. Therefore, if we say that Jesus is the begotten from the father, we must be saying biological because we're like copying human procreation. No, you and I are created in the image of God. We're the copy of an eternal relationship within the divine nature. We're the copy. And it's only a source that says this in English language that begotten doesn't mean reproduction. We're talking about what the Bible breaks down, man. This isn't- But we're using English language, buddy. I hate to do this, but you have to go to the next one. Christina Marie says, question for Shuaib. Do you agree with Mohammed that a disbeliever can be a Muslim? Or do you feel that reduces being a Muslim to nothing? How do you submit to a God you don't believe in? A disbeliever being a Muslim, I think that's not what Mohammed said. I think that this question has been twisted. No, it's a twisted form. A disbeliever, the moment a person is classified as a disbeliever, that's not a person who is a Muslim anymore. You understand? That's exactly- No, no, no. In other way around, there's a misunderstanding here. So the point is, no, every stop interrupting. So the point is, aha, the point is a disbeliever, the moment a person is classified as a disbeliever, that is out of coverage area of being a submitter to God because he rejects God entirely. That's what makes him a disbeliever. He disbelieves in God, you understand? So based on the question the person is asking, if that is the case, no, the person cannot be classified as a Muslim. All right, thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's about me, it's about me, let me also answer. It's for us to respond. It's for us to respond, right, Hoss? No, the question was directed to me. Yes, and we can, and I can respond as the opposite side. So, responding to your comment. Again, this is the second time that you contradicted Muhammad and misrepresented his words. He literally said, and he repeated this. Please don't interrupt me. Let's let him just finish really quick and we'll give you a chance, Muhammad. We'll give you maybe about another 20 seconds if you can. Yeah, definitely. So he definitely said, and he repeated it, and we repeated it and laughed at it because it was so funny that you can be a Muslim, but a disbeliever because your theology doesn't match with Islam, but you submit. You're a believer, a Muslim. So thank you, Shoaib, for exposing Muhammad and showing that his reasoning is faulty. You, I said, and I will repeat it, that people have our submitters, they're Muslims that are committing acts of disbelief. Doesn't make them disbelievers. So for example, God told us, okay, drinking is bad, don't drink. It's forbidden for you to eat pork, make it even easier. So we're bidding for you to eat pork. I can still submit to God, try to work with God and be submissive to God, but then if I eat pork purposely, I committed disbelief at that point, that I don't believe in God's verses, but it does not necessitate that now I am no longer a submitter. It's I'm committing disbelief. If you keep constantly committing disbelief and then you completely leave the book of God, now you're a disbeliever. Things are not binary, Avery. There's a scale. The more you commit, the more you're gonna eat. That's how it works. So you're taking me out of context. All right, again, as you do with your Bible. All right, good. So my appeal to the audience, make sure you guys clip it. Go back to the part where you repeated this, go to the part where we laughed and then come right here because this is gonna be a good one. Just gonna bring it around, we do appreciate it. Allian says Isaiah 9.6, says Jesus is named Everlasting Father in all caps. Is Jesus his own Father or is Jesus a Father in another sense? Yeah, good point. Because notice, here again, we see the use of Father over and over again in very different senses. Right there, you have a son. It says for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. So he's a child that's referring to his human nature. The son is referring to his divine nature and he shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. So does that make him God the Father? No, the same passage refers to him as the son. But as far as being the creator, you can go back to John one where everything is created through Jesus, then yes, he's the Father of creation in that sense, like all Yahweh is the Father. And that includes Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So Father, Son, Holy Spirit in terms of being creator, creating us, Yahweh is the Father. In terms of relationship within the Trinity, yeah, you've got Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So just to be clear with this, so this does not mean that Jesus is the person of the Father. It shows that it's talking about his attribute of being the source of eternal life and the source of creation. So he's not the person, the Father, but he is the source of eternal life. Another rendition of this in the Hebrew is Father of eternity. So yeah, good breakdown. I hope that's clear for you guys. You got it. We actually don't have too many more left. So if you can bear with me is thank you very much for your super chat question. J-Box 12 says, question from Mohammed and Shuaib. Where in the Quran do you find the criteria by which you are to judge, interpret scripture? They're saying like, how does the Quran inform you on how you should go about interpreting scripture? When you take the chapter three verse seven of the Quran, which is an essential part on understanding how the verses of the Quran work in terms of finding interpretation. It says, he God is the one who has revealed the book to you of which are precise signs. They are the source of the book. Like they made the main source of the book. While other signs are similar, as for those in whose house is deviation, they will then follow what is similar there of seeking discord and seeking its interpretation. But they do not know its interpretation except God. And there's a comma in the English as well as those deeply rooted in knowledge. So those deeply rooted in knowledge, they will now say, we believe in it. All is from our Lord, but only those of intelligence will remember. So it tells us clearly that part of the people who actually take the interpretations because of their deviants, was those deeply rooted in knowledge, which clearly tells us that you have to actually critically study the scriptures and the scripture to know what it actually says before you take it up to follow. As he says in Quran chapter 17, verse 36, that do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. So by this, you have to let the Quran do the talking by actually adhering to the clarifications God gives instead of adhering to what the opinion of people. That is how to understand how to take up interpretations from the Quran. This one from Dredz says, the passage of Muhammad keeps quoting from is when Allah is speaking to the Bedouin, Bedouin were believers, cause Allah said they had no faith. No, I think he's quoting the verse where God says, don't say you've believed, say you submitted, and when the faith enters your heart and then at that point you're a believer because you have to first submit to God, then you have to understand what it needs to trust God because the word in man in Arabic comes from the word of Emin, which is security and safety. So after you submit to the Lord, you have to find security and safety in him that he is handling everything. He's the one who's taking care of everything. Whatever befalls you is by his permission, whatever good comes to you is from him, whatever things that are mishap is from your own doing. At that way, you have submitted that it's all in God's hand, you may peace. And then now when you have the faith in your heart, you're a believer. You got it, this one coming in from Dredz says, it makes no sense that those who'd be identifying with the quote unquote true faith would use the same word as those prescribed as faithless. Shalom and peace of Christ to my brothers fighting for Yahweh. Say it makes no sense that those who'd be identifying with the true faith would use the same word as those prescribed as faithless. Is that, I don't know what that's talking about. Is that talking about using the word Muslim and applying it to like people who like follow the Quran and people don't? That's what I'm guessing. Again, God refers to the people who are completely in belief and following the Quran as believers and submitters is something of a different degree and maybe Shraibah can correct me. Yeah, there's a different level to that. There's a submission level and then there's a believer level. The believing level is actually those who actually practice the core of the faith. Submission level is just you actually acknowledge and submit to the will of one God but you might not necessarily be a practitioner of the faith even though you submit to God, right? So then we have believers who actually practice the faith in its entirety by doing what they are commanded. So for Christians Quran chapter two verse eight among the people are those who say we believe in God on the last day but they are not actually believers because they don't do the works of that. Just as my brothers here, God Logic and David Wood can testify from James chapter two verse 20 and I think verse 26, faith without works is dead. If you have faith and you don't do the works of the faith your faith is useless. So the level of believers submission is at the different levels, yeah. This one going in from. Just to make this world a better place. This one from Lightel says, my question earlier was messed up. They said Jesus said in John 2017, don't cling to me after his resurrection. They say Muslims, why did Christ say in Luke 2439 quote, look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself touch me and see a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. This is after the resurrection, obviously. Who is it directed to? I think it's asking so in the gospel of John and again I'm not sure about this. I think the question is asking in the gospel of John when he says he's going to ascend to his father this is after his death and resurrection and then the questioner ties it into Luke where he's saying look at my hands and my feet showing that he was crucified and I'm guessing you guys since you don't believe in the crucifixion you're just gonna think that these parts were fabricated or something. Of course, we believe these are the concepts Quran came to correct. So we don't believe in that concept now. Gotcha. This one coming in from near the end here. This is Elianz's Shu I said the Quran is not confusing. What does alif, lamb, L-A-M-M-I-M mean exactly? When you take the alphabet of the Quran they are signs like symbols of the Quran. For instance, if you take Quran chapter 27 verse one it gives you the similar example by saying Torah seeing it mentioned and then tells you these are signs of the Quran and the clear book. So these are signs, symbols using the Quran to denote because unlike other books or man-made books Quran is unique on its own having these initials just to denote the symbols of the Quran and there's no special meaning to say oh, it means this or that, no. Two more, Joshua Pinkham and folks please no more questions no more we can't read anymore you got these last two. Joshua Pinkham says Jesus revealed himself to Nicodemus, John three said no one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the son of man. Could someone read Proverbs 30 verse four? Think that's where it says what is God's name? What is God's son's name? I might be wrong about that but let me check. They say Yahweh is God, Jesus is Yahweh. Let me book Proverbs 30. David, do you agree that Jesus is Yahweh? I don't think you would associate Jesus to Yahweh, would you? Or Avery, sorry. Oh, Jesus is Yahweh. I was so wrong. It says Proverbs 30 verse four says who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? And oh, it's verse five. It says what is his name? What is his son's name? Yeah, you're in the right ballpark there, James. Okay, so you associate Yahweh to both the father and the son and the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Christian view is that Yahweh is eternally triune, he exists from all eternity. So you can reject that but that's the Christian view. So Yahweh is all three personas in one. All three persons in one essence, yes. Okay, guys, so who is the actual savior? Is it Jesus or the father? According to your understanding, is it the father? The father, the son and the spirit are all the savior. But Isaiah 43, 11 says, I am even I am the Lord. That's right. And besides me, there's no savior, he said. Because Yahweh is one God that consists of three distinct persons. But we don't get that understanding from the Old Testament. Yeah, you do. You definitely do, you definitely get that from the Old Testament. Give me a vest. No, no, no, this is another debate but if you want to have this discussion, if you want to have this discussion, happy to. I just said a vest. I didn't say discussion, a vest. Yeah, but you're starting a discussion that we love. It's a question on the outside, it's a vest, I say. We're agreeing to debate, we're agreeing to have a debate on this. This one from Rocco says, if Jesus Christ the son is also the father, did Christ the son always exist as the father? Or did the father create a new essence of itself that is Christ Jesus? He is the father, but also isn't? What? Yeah, so this is another Quran only Muslim. And so his question, already the first part of his question, is Jesus the father? The answer is no. So that counts us out the rest of that time, that question you wasted your money, bro. You said he's part of the Trinity, he's part of the God, is that what you said earlier to me? Let's say Godhead. So is Jesus God or not? You don't know Jesus, you don't know Jesus is God in Christianity? I'm asking you. Yes. He's God. Father, father, father, father. You're gonna repeat yourself six times. I'm asking you. Yeah, go back and watch it because we kind of went through this. I'm asking you for clarity. I just think you're running away. He's not within the divine nature, you have father, son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the son that's what he is in the Trinity. When we were talking about creating the universe, father in that sense, as you guys were talking about that, that everything comes from Allah, we say father in that sense, yes, Jesus is father of eternity, all things are created through Jesus. David, I love this your opinion because it's not coming from Jesus or Paul or anybody. It's really coming from Jesus. Reed Philippians two was brought up earlier. Just read John chapter one. You guys quoted the Gospel of John a bunch. Just read John chapter one. Read Genesis. But Jesus and the Father as one, they're not equal. And you can start at Genesis chapter one. Exactly. David, if I replace the name of father in the Bible for Jesus, just would the context still be okay and it would make sense? Yes or no? Okay. If you're referring to God the Father, then no, you couldn't replace that with Jesus. So they're not equal. They're not the same person. Different persons. You're gonna keep repeating yourself, David. I promise you. You're just gonna keep repeating. Guys, I'm not talking about a different person. I'm talking about equality. Are we done? Are we done? We are done. I do have to say, folks, sorry, I gave you a warning that we can't read any more questions. Feel free to email me at moderatetubate. Closingremarks. And feel free to keep kicking in the super chats. James deserves it. Yep. Good stuff, James. 30 second closing remarks while you get this project. If you guys want 30 seconds, I'm open to it. You guys wanna, okay. We, let's see, we started, we'll do the same order we started with. So given that Muhammad and Shuaib, Shuaib, do you wanna get us started and then we'll move from right on the screen to left, namely Shuaib, Muhammad, then Avery, then David. Yeah. I would like to say to the viewers, thank you also for being present. And this is, you can see what we presented for and led for those who have the intelligence and the logic to actually decipher and see for themselves which one is more sensible and which one is non-sensical and what they have to pick up and follow as guidance. We are here to present the evidences we have. We are not saying we know more than them or they know more than us, but we have to present for what the scriptures say so people can take up what they can benefit and you can see what happened and how the game of semantics were played in and so on. But I can say, kudos to my brothers here, David Wood and God-Logic and also your yourself, James Kans. Thank you for hosting us and hopefully we get to meet again. Thank you. Thank you. Go ahead, Muhammad. Well, one thing is the debate topic was definitely interesting. I think there is a verse in the Quran and it says that how people are witnessing upon themselves a disbelief, committing disbelief. And our opponents, unfortunately, when they could prove that Jesus was not a submitter for their father, that was something that was exciting for them. But this is not something that's gonna be helpful for them on a day of judgment. The whole purpose of their religion from Christians, Jewish, and the Muslim side is for us to make this world a better place for everybody, for all of humanity. Yes, we are discussing things on how that's achieved and that's achieved by completely submitting total mindset, mind power, everything back to the Lord, mighty. If the Christians refer to him as the father, we refer to him as the God, the Jews refer to him as Yahweh, which in Arabic is the everlasting creature, the everlasting being. So that is essentially why we're here to make the world a better place. And Jesus taught us how to do that, just like Muhammad taught us to do that by submission. Thank you, 30 seconds for Avery. Yeah, guys, we saw a lot of flip-flopping. We saw a lot of contradictions. We saw a lot of misrepresentation. We had the Muslims admit openly that there's no way in the world that Allah is a father in any sense and also made the statement that whoever claims that Jesus is the Son of God is not a submitter and a heretic. Yet they quoted verses that said where Jesus himself says that he is the Son and God is the Father. So therefore, Jesus is not a Muslim. He's not a submitter. He's a heretic, according to these guys. They gave us the debate. It was over a long time ago. Floor is yours, David. All right, well, pretty simple. According to the Quran, Christians are supposed to judge by the gospel. We know what that means. The Quran says we have it and requires us to judge by it and to live according to it. We saw where our Muslim friends go when they want to explain what the gospel teaches and there's no passage they could go to where we can't just read in the same passage before it or after it and find that it doesn't line up with Islam. So the Quran is sending us to the gospel and the gospel contradicts the Quran. I don't think we can say Jesus is a Muslim because Islam is just an incoherent position. Time. With that, I wanna say thanks so much for watching, folks. Appreciate all of your questions. Thank you to the speakers. They're the lifeblood of the channel. Do check out their links in the description box. Right now, what are you waiting for? Even if you disagree, it's a great opportunity. You might as well at least understand well what you disagree with. And last but not least, if you want more people to see this debate because you're like, man, I thought that this is very educational, share this video. With that, I wanna say thank you, everybody. I will be back in a quick second with a quick post-credits scene, giving channel updates and the like. So thanks so much for our guests and folks, stick around because I'll be back in a moment.